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welcome to power up recovery with nutrition it is time to make nutrition

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part of the conversation I'm your host Christina Veselak and I'm so glad you're

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here did you know that it's our brain's job to allow us to cope with stress

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gracefully but to do that it needs to be fed optimally have you ever wondered why so

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many committed people relapse or maybe even die why so many people on

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psychotropic medication still feel lousy and still have cravings What if the missing piece is

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food the right food what if the right nutrients like amino acids or even

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eating protein every four hours could actually balance your brain chemistry

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and your mood without medication and support lasting recovery in this podcast

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we explore the powerful connection between feeding your brain well mental health relapse and recovery from

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addiction we will share insights from experts inspiring recovery stories and

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practical strategies you can use today whether you're in recovery a health care

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professional or someone passionate about emotional well-being this show is for

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you let's dive in and discover how fueling your body and brain with the

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right food the right vitamino acids and other key nutrients can fuel your

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transformation today welcome welcome to another episode

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of Power Up recovery with nutrition I'm your host Christina Veselak and today

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we're diving into an incredibly important topic with a wonderful practitioner Dr Michelle parin the topic

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is how to combine targeted Nutri own therapy with targeted amino acid therapy

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and dietary change Michelle

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welcome hi Christina thanks for inviting me I'm excited to be here can you tell

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us a little bit about what your background is and how you came to do

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both targeted nxone therapy and amino acid therapy yeah sure um I started as

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an alcohol and drug 17 years ago approximately I worked in all levels of

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care from high-intensity Residential Treatment Residential Treatment long-term Residential Treatment detox

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adolescent care tah health and now I'm working for myself but with all that

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experience I happened to be given a program to start and grow at the last

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job that I was at so I took a one session group program and turned it into

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10 groups and 10 counselors and it ran for eight years and we had several

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hundred people go through it successfully and it was all based on targeted nrex so I was very lucky to

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have that moderation style um treatment protocol underneath the umbrella of

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traditional treatment with the agency I was working with so I developed that over time looking more and more at

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targeted nrex Zone how it worked started networking and finding more information

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and as I went it was my clients who started talking about diet and exercise

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and I always felt that was an important part that was vastly poorly sorely overlooked in all the work i' had done

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in brick and mortar and so I started looking into it and then I started attending a Monday morning meeting and

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met one of the people who had gone through your training and as I asked nutritional questions about amuno acid

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that you have to go the academy and find out more so last uh spring I went to the

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academy and started learning in your wonderful class and it became the like

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the primary spearhead points in my treatment it has changed my practice completely from just Al targeted alrex

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Zone to including the amino acids right down to asking the very first question

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what are you eating because even that can make a dramatic difference and that has really catapulted the results of my

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clients even the ones that I've been working with that were just doing the nrex therapy um now I start everybody

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with aminos as we talk about what their needs are and what their their history has been and it's it's been gamechanging

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a gamechanging solution so it sounds like you've run across two game-changing solutions both

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changing the way nxone has been typically used as well as adding amino

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acid and feeding the brain optimally to it yes yeah the first leg came when I

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started to learn about an Al trone but there was a lot of non-compliance it wasn't until I learned about through

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Claudia Christian the targeted nxone user the Sinclair method it was the

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Sinclair method that that demonstrated that if you took the NRA Zone an hour

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before you did your drinking as usual it would begin to reduce the stimulation

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and reduce the reward that you were getting from drinking thereby leading to pharmacological Extinction so as I saw

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that in in process as I attended a lot of free groups one of them being the TSM

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meetup.com group I would go and listen to people talk and listen to their results and it was hugely different

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because they didn't have this punitive I failed I've relapsed again my my

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family's angry I'll never get better what I was hearing was well I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and I'm seeing

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improvements and things are getting better and my wife's on board or my husband's on board or you know I don't

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feel so terrible and as I started to look at that I also started to tap into

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my accreditation or my certification as a an applied positive um counselor as

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well so I used applied positive psychology changing the way I spoke about alcohol in conjunction with this

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targeted na TRX Zone and everything was hunky dory for a while but I thought there's got to be more because some

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people took a lot longer to feel the you know feel better and have more energy

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than others and I thought something's still missing and it was that nutritional component which was exactly

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what I was looking for with the amino acid therapy because you can now I can now plainly see the importance of the

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serotonin serotonin connection with AUD which that was not taught to me in all

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of the education that I received I was that was not put forward as an important

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aspect of how the brain was functioning yet we were told about the amydala and the reward system and you know all

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that we're taught about dopamine but we're not taught about the role that the other neurotransmitter systems play the

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serotonin and the endorphins and even Gaba exactly yeah and I used to teach

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theories of addiction in our one of our local colleges here and I taught 35

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mechanisms of addiction I had a book I had all the stuff of all the different theories and never one of them even in

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the the brain Theory did it include any of the neurotransmitters that are so vital to our daily function I was like

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floored so I'm very happy to discovered this I wish I found it 10 years ago 17

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years ago would have been so impactful it's a little mindblowing especially

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since no tone was designed to work on a neurotransmitter system actually several

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of them can you talk to that the difference between sort of why no trexon started being used but why it doesn't

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work as well as it's supposed to and infect some of the damage that can occur

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in terms of or from long-term nxone use yeah well the way that it's put on this

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package the way that it's prescribed today by a regular medical doctor

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because they're trained to prescribe it the way it's suggested evidence-based and all that and they've done

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evidence-based studies on Al trone daily in the morning unfortunately when I saw

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people taking it daily in the morning morning the compliance was bismal because it was what happens is they get

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Flatline emotionally because a reduction in dopamine long term means you're not also feeling very happy when you need to

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feel very happy or or feeling very relieved when you come out from shoveling snow and take a hot shower or

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you know being outside in the in on the farm or or getting dirty or being outside and then coming back in the

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house when it's cold and warming up with a cup of cocoa or steak dinner they weren't getting the rewards from regular

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healthy good activities and so they would stop taking the medication and then they would relapse again and

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compounded with that this prolonged period of white knuckling to abstinence

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created the abstinence Theory right the abstinence myth where the longer you stay sober the less you're going to want

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to drink but in fact that's not true because it accumulates the work of Addie jaffy you know demonstrated that um over

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the long term if you don't drink your Cravings will actually increase so that at some point you when you finally give

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into those Cravings you'll overshoot and you'll drink way more than you intend which is actually more dangerous the

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older we get so I'm like there's got to be some way around this and that's where now trone targeted you know using it

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later in the day hour to an hour and a half before you might want to drink if you don't drink that's fine but if you

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drink it's fine too because it leads to this Extinction session which helps people drink less but you're still the

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next morning you may not be hung over but you're not happy either and that's where the aminos come

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in that's right and I think this is what a lot of people don't understand about now treone is that it blocks um the

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dopamine receptors do and also the Endorphin receptors doesn't it yes the

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Endorphin receptors as well and what I like to say to clients for Lay people it's easier to remember I said now trx's

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like a condom for the brain it covers your receptors so don't have unprotected drinking they laugh like you're laughing

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but they remember that it sticks with them and then they realize oh I have to protect myself when I'm drinking it

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becomes right prophylactic to use the word right but the problem with that

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long term is that we actually need active dopamine receptors we need active

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endorphin receptors for our long-term quality of life because it gives us joy

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and and and and drive and personality and a

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reason to keep on living yes yes I had I've had I once had a client who was a

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psychiatrist who came in and he was doing Al trone he was prescribed every morning now treone and he was in the

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group and over time as he heard other people talk he finally asked me one day do I need to take this you you know do I

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need to Oh I said how are you feeling and he was pretty Flatline and he was newly married and his wife wasn't too

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happy with that and I suggested he took it later in the day because he had heard other people in the group took it later

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in the day so after about a week he came back and he said do I need to take this every day and I said well you can

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because it can help with Cravings but you don't have to you can just take it on the days that you drink so he tried

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that for the following day which is the way that I support it in my coaching practice and he came back the following

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week his personality had changed he was bubbly he was pleasant he was

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like more humorous he he was night and day I had to pull him aside and say have you been drinking he said no this is who

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I am this my wife is so much happier because of myself again and yeah

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dramatic this is really this is really interesting because it's like no trione causes what we call reward deficiency

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syndrome and according to Dr Blum who's one of the researchers who discovered

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reward deficiency syndrome this has to do with with all of the different blocks

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in all of our neurotransmitter systems that block dopamine in the nucleus

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accumbens in the pleasure reward center of the brain leading to Gray from day

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one leading to a lack of Joy a lack of Life a lack of reward a lack of a lack

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of everything that makes life worth living it's like you know living in Shades of Gray rather than color and

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life yeah and that when people discovered the mood altering substance to to um improve

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the function of that particular neurotransmitter system all of a sudden we've moved from black and white TV to

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color TV yes absolutely and when cxone turns this backwards yeah nxone turns it

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backwards but it doesn't replete the neurotransmitters it does a great job to

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not stimulate that that release of neurotransmitters you don't feel that

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release so that you're not over rewarded when you do drink but it doesn't come back because so many people start

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drinking because of the serotonin depletion because they don't feel happy and you know and maybe their dopamine

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might be depleted as well typically it is but when they start drinking that alleviates that blah that feeling sad

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that irritability that that negativity right and so the worry and anxiety

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a lot of people abolutely worry and anxiety which is low serotonin I have yet to meet a person who has AUD that

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does not have anxiety so when we use nxone then it can cover that that reward

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I have a client now who said well I take the N trone but I'm not getting the the hit that I want when I'm not getting the

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buzz that I want when I'm drinking I'm like well it's doing its job so we have to look then in another Direction which

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I never had before and that's to improve your Nar transmitter so when you're not using NRA zone for instance if you're

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using it daily it usually has a metabolic halflife of about anywhere from four to 13 hours depending on which

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receptor it's approaching so we say about six hours for it to metabolize off The receptors your body will go on so it

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doesn't keep you down if you're not using it every day if you're using it every day it it will work most um

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intensely for the first six hours then after that you can drink through the N TRX zone or you're going to fall asleep

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a lot of people do but the next morning there's no that that serotonin depletion

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is still there there's nothing kicking that back up so that you feel great the morning and you feel proud that you

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didn't drink as much last night and wow I feel energetic and I want to go to work and I'm no longer depressed and I'm

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not anxious that part is not addressed right because the dopamine is still

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repressed from the Notre Zone the endorphins are still suppressed from the Notre Zone which is cumulative

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and so people continue to lose their their joy in life yes and joy in

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drinking which is their usually their one rest bit right and joy in life in general so the daily use in alra exone

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really shows that up and that's why people usually quit using alra exone when they take it every day in the

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morning okay okay so by combining amino acid therapy with no treone you're

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you're getting the immediate Extinction of reward from from the alcohol use but

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it's not lasting you're using the amino acids to rebuild dopamine because we use

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tyrosine to rebuild dopamine and we use 5htp to rebuild serotonin and we use the defol alanine

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to keep the endorphins and the synaps longer right on and on and so we're now

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actually getting down to the nitty gritty the actual biochemical molecular

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reasons in the brain as to why people seek a mood altering Behavior or

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chemical to feel better yeah and the Miracle of amino acids is that we can do

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that without a mood altering substance yes um they are mood altering in that

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they are rebuilding neurotransmitter systems rather than depleting it so

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they're actually anti-addictive isn't that amazing that amino acids can buy over the counter are

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anti-addictive and yet work within 20 minutes yeah and what I'm seeing with clients is when I for the longest time I

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was working with just the targeted elrex Zone and they while they'd be happy that they weren't drinking as much they still

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had this lower cruising level for their sense of well-being they were languishing is what we would say in

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positive psychology they were not thriving they were languishing but when I when I started adding amino acids into

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the mix where in the morning they could get up take your their aminos and then start to have a more productive day and

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and feel less Moody throughout the day and start actually changing the way they're looking at things and that's

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what I work on as well the behavioral and the attitudinal portions of add

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alongside of these two therapies all of a sudden when they're getting up in the morning they're excited they're not just

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yeah I did good whole hum they're like oh yeah I'm going to go do this today and I started doing that today and I

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didn't realize how asleep I was and I didn't realize that how much better I could feel and I'm thinking about doing

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the things I used to do again like the Energy starts to come back and really quickly and just they're almost like a

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new person it's so dramatic I wish I could film

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them maybe you could ask them you know one or two clients to film them that would be really cool

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yeah what about now diet change because you mentioned dietary change how does

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that fit into all of this oh when I started asking the question what are you eating I I had no idea because that

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wasn't a question I was trained to ask as an alcohol drug counselor that's not a question right so as I started to ask

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which is so fundamental to our well-being and so when I started to ask that question I found out the grown

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adults are eating Doritos and Coca-Cola for breakfast grown adults are drink are

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having Frosted Mini Wheats and coffee and they're having just cookies and donuts and danishes and then at lunch

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they might have a sandwich that's you know a quone or like heavy carb laid in meals and and like the protein is is

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poultry it's terrible yeah just yeah so that was one of the most eye openening

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things I learned that people are not eating like like maybe I eat because I went keto several years ago and so

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protein has been a big part of my life so as I started asking them and then I

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just the simplest of instruction is please eat 15 to 20 grams if it's a man 25 grams four times a day at least every

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four hours or so so three four times a day get your protein in that in itself was a turnaround like oh now I eat you

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know so people will eat eggs or they'll eat bacon or they'll have some leftover pot roast from last night or those sorts

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of things which makes all the difference so we we look at that we look at what are you eating primarily what's your

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protein intake and then we start looking at the junk food and the sugary drinks and all that how do we start changing

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that now I'm a big proponent of carbon ated water I love carbonation and I realized my addiction to maybe seven up

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at one time was because of the carbonation and when I took the sugar out and just did carbonation and you can

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sweeten that however you like you can add a little juice then it becomes your substitute pop or soda and that was huge

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so I'm really big on having people become mixologists themselves with with

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soda water make it flavored in a way that you enjoy it without all that sugar and a lot of people have gone to that

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and incidentally um O blood types do better with carbonation I learned in the five star recovery diet and so that's

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I'm an O blood type and no wonder I love it I I probably drink a liter a day with with meals and with vinegar in it I like

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red wine vinegar in soda water which is a great Digestive and it's a little than

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apple cider vinegar and it's a little less harsh and it's nice so a lot of clients get turned on to that a little

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raspberry shrub in there and you've got your own kombucha right away so it's learning to be open to to dietary

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changes that aren't limiting but adding into your diet so that you prefer you

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see how good you feel and you prefer it and then over time it minimizes down you know a lot of people like chocolate so

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what kind of chocolate are you going to be eating is it quality does it have sugar or is it sweetened with stevia

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there are a lot of options now that are Stevia sweeten chocolate that are perfectly good so it helps that way so we're

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looking at snacks we're looking at meals and digestion that's part of and you

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were talking about habit change a lot of people who drink in the evening drink

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throughout the evening are attached or emotionally attached to having something

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enjoyable to actually drink right this hand that hand motion yes exactly and to

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find a alternative to drink that is enjoyable that is relaxing that is fun

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rather than the alcohol right because we we can't just take something away from somebody and leave a void we have

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stimulating in their something interesting and stimulating to their palette because the addicted brain loves

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variety and Novelty so new and different right so I always um in you know sker

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clients towards new and different try something new try something different try this try that one of the the big

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Savers is a Mojito flavored kombucha which is alcohol free but it's mojito

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flavored so it's kind of like a mixed drink and it can be very palatable and enjoyable and clients can sometimes go

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to that now it's not like stop drinking it's not this white knuckling business anymore it's intersperse like if start

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with a big glass of water because you're likely hydrated and then have a glass of wine and then maybe try one of your

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Mixology you know alcohol free interesting drinks and then maybe after that you'll have another glass of wine

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and by then it'll be 9 or so 9:30 at night then it's time for bed right get a

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good night's sleep and so as you give people drinking Windows there's just those little tips and tricks I know

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every other drinks alcoholic start drinking later make curfew at the end if they plan their drinking that can be a

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game changer the problem is we all started to learn to drink by let's go we

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have a letter rip mentality when it comes to our drinking all of us learned how to start a party not how to finish

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it so I focus on how what what mindset do we need going in and how do we finish

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it on a peak end experience so that we learn how to end the party and still have had a great time and not go home

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worried about how I'm getting home or who I'm going home with it just becomes an enjoyable social activity I say the

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point of social drinking is to be social first so and so it sounds like you know

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what I was taught many of us as um Alim used to order C counselors were taught

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is that for people to stop drinking they actually have to go for complete a 100%

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abstinence yes or it will trigger this kind of outof Control process yes once

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an alcoholic always an alcoholic right right so some of what you're saying kind

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of flies in the face of that it does it does and I would never have projected

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that I'd be sitting here you know 16 17 years into my career changing lanes I

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you know if I had colleagues saying don't you think you're doing malpractice it's like you need to sit in these shoes

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that have done Group after Group after group therapeutically as well as attended groups as a listener to learn

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and to see the difference it's not punitive it's not I'm a failure there's no guilt there's no shame it becomes

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like Universal knowledge and I start just about every group that way by saying if you like if you've ever had

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the opportunity to have a drink and you've enjoyed it you've likely had the opportunity to over drink like just

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about everyone who likes to drink has had the opportunity to over drink and so it's the nature of alcohol it's not just

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human uh willpower it's the nature of alcohol to get us addicted to it it

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that's what it does and if you really like it it it will take over a life of its own

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yours right that's what Happ are are you familiar with the three different types

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of alcohol use disorder that Joan Matthew Larsson talks about in her book seven weeks to sobriety the biotypes is

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that what you're different biotypes yes and you know we've got the thiqs where we have extended um Phase 2

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detoxification in the brain leading to more of these opioids um or in the liver

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that lead to opioid growth in the brain um your people who are allergic to

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alcohol and can get a craving you know if they even use an alcohol-based hair

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spray yep versus people who when they stop drinking get very very depressed

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because they're not making um a certain anti-depressant brain chemistry brain

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chemical have you noticed any of those playing out with your work with n

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trone so many of the people that use nxone successfully and then now get on

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the amuno acids are thiq they're what I call power drinkers they can out drink everybody

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else and get up the next morning and mow the lawn and pack the car and go canoeing all day long and while everyone

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else might be wiped out and tired or hung over these power drinkers are definitely they seem to be the ones that

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correlate just anecdotally in my practice with good responders to nxone

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with little to no side effects from it and they respond well to that treatment

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and so adding in the amino acids with that it it brings them up which is where

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they like to be anyway with without the adverse effects of alcohol in their lives sure so that one I've

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noticed for sure I haven't come across too many people with like the essential fatty acid type or the allergy type it

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might just be anecdotal but it seems to be those are the people the people who are

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drinking so much in excess I I just spoke with a man who's drinking a fifth

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of vodka every two days handle every three days yeah so that's that's what

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discovered is that there seems to be a a more prevalent um type that is thiq the

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power drinkers respond well and of course when it comes to alone it's it's effective for approximately 85% of

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people who try it and they and they are correlating that with some receptors but

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it's not super clear yet exactly how and when and we don't test for different receptors and people to know if it's

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going to be the best treatment for them sure so it might be that 15% for whom it

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doesn't work so well may be these other two biotypes either the allergic type or

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the um GLA deficient type and for them there are other targeted types of um um

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medications they can take as well so um the secondary one that is often gone to

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and there are there's more and more research being done right now with it and that's on Dan Citron and oddly enough it's at at low dose so they're

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talking about using the pediatric drops twice a day with onanon rather than that's interesting

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but you know since we found that uh borage oil or evening primrose oil does such an amazing job turning off the

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depression in that group of people you know it it becomes so much easier for

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people to stop drinking because because they don't need it anymore to manage the depression because it's being managed by

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adding this very simple nutrient yeah so you know there's there's so much

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information out here that that so many people don't know should be standard operating training procedure now like

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now I mean we know this this is given You' you've you've had Years Learning this and trying to get the message out

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that eating protein saves lives and the fact that I only like basically stumbled

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upon this last spring and it's been so dramatically gamechanging to my practice

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it it it should be standard practice for all alcohol and drug counselors to learn at least to what where to even refer

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someone to for that information or you know put them onto that information because it's basic to tell someone eat

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more protein what are you eating eat more protein that's an ordinary conversation and easy to suggest you

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know baking an eggs for breakfast or a protein shake or it's not hard to do easy and it's such a game changer and it

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should be within the scope of practice of every addiction counselor in every psychotherapist for that matter and this

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is exactly why you know I started the academy for addiction of Mental Health Nutrition exactly why we're doing this

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podcast and exactly why we're doing the conference feed the recovering brain in

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um Columbus you know in May 2025 to get this word out to more and

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more people and Michelle I'm delighted that you're going to be speaking at that conference oh thank you for inviting me

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there's a wonderful lineup I feel honored to be one of the speakers there and excited to meet the others that will

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be there and the attendees and whoever's going to be watching online I think they're going to get more than their

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money's worth especially if this is your field of practice especially if you're interested in outside the box therapies

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that work better than you know business as usual and really help people feel

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better and feel proud of themselves and I had a client once remarked that in the

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um moderation groups people didn't get divorce and they stopped arguing and it wasn't a shame blame nasty game it was

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let's work together let's get on the same page I understand what you're doing there are certain questions that we

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allow you know without getting upset or our loved ones can ask particular questions and we have to take in the

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spirit of love and concern not picking on us and then the other thing is um

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reducing the number of arguments and relationships all those things those are part of the things that I teach my

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clients when I'm working with them so that's a holistic approach which is exactly where I want to be yeah yeah

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well congratulations on putting all of this together oh I'm so excited I feel it's Serendipity I just left out

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here now one final question before before we close and that is what

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research have you run across well around around combining

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amino acids with not treone interesting that you ask that like everyone else I've been playing

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with chat GPT and grock and looking at what what is compiled out there searching the internet and seeing what

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it'll come up up up with and both of those sources of AI when I asked the question of combining these two

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therapies they said there's really not much research on it but called it the most promising area of recovery in AUD

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in the near future and they they look and they they say that that they recommend that more research be done but

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that these two would optimize the brain's functioning as well as you know extinguishing the desire for alcohol and

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improving the neurotransmitters the two together appear to be the perfect

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storm so I'm really excited wonderful that that is so good to know anything

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else before we close oh I look forward to the um conference that's coming up

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The Summit in May and I look forward to learning more and I'm just I'm so I feel

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so very blessed that I learned about the Academy and was able to participate in the classes and it's just been just an

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eye openening experience so thank you so much Christina for all you do you you are so welcome finally

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Michelle if people want to reach you how might they do that oh easy I have a

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website and you can send me an email there or you can um actually sign up for

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any kind of appointment you would like it's all automated so you can find me at Dr Michelle Peron that's d r m i c h e l

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e p e r r o N.C or you can look me up on LinkedIn I'm available there I'm in

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Psychology today and um also on the directory for Thrive alcohol recovery

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and I'm in a directory for choose your horizons that's another company out of California so I have lots of leaders but

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there's you can schedule yourself on my calendar or send me a quick email and I can get back to you as well so there's

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that's wonderful and you're also in the a directory for the academy for addiction and Mental Health Nutrition

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and I'm also working on um an app that people will be able to carry in their pocket that will work on these two

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premises of the combined nxone and um amino acid therapy and it's called

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splashed not smashed so that people are not getting intoxicated but instead they

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can just enjoy a little bit of their favorite beverage that's amazing and when will

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that be available Michelle um well it depends on how Brave I get to do all the videos but hopefully by the

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end of January I'll start launching that yeah what a brilliant idea congratulations thank you thank you I

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hope to have some really good information for the summit from that as well I'm sure you will so if you want to

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reach Michelle you can or if you have clients that you want to refer to her or

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just ask questions you know where to reach her and thank you all for for

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listening to this podcast and this wonderful conversation and I think the takeaways are there's more than one way

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to recovery we get to combine so many wonderful tools the the eating protein

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every four hours the using amino acid therapy the using the targeted Notre

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Zone just when needed in very specific ways to to protect those acceptors and

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to buy us time and to to extinguish the conditioned craving for um some of these

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substances and in this case alcohol so I look forward to having all of you listen

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to this podcast again and come to our wonderfully planned conference in May

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2025 or attending it virtually or by the recording thank you so much and thank

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you Michelle thank you for tuning in to power up recovery with nutrition I'm

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Christina Veselak your host and I hope today's episode has inspired and

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equipped you with new insights and tools to support your recovery Journey or

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practice if you enjoyed this episode please subscribe leave a review and

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share it with others who could benefit from the knowledge shared here stay connected with us for more episodes

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filled with practical advice expert wisdom and inspiring recovery stories

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remember nutrition is a powerful tool in mental health and relapse prevention

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power up your recovery today I'm Christina Veselak and I'll see you next

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time