1 00:00:08,717 --> 00:00:09,759 If you are listening 2 00:00:09,759 --> 00:00:13,930 to these words, I know you want to perform better. 3 00:00:14,055 --> 00:00:15,306 Get better results. 4 00:00:15,306 --> 00:00:17,892 Succeed and thrive. 5 00:00:17,892 --> 00:00:19,185 You want this for your team 6 00:00:19,185 --> 00:00:22,939 and your organization, but you need it for yourself too. 7 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:25,400 You are the focus today. 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,946 Let's talk about winning your inside game so you can thrive as a leader 9 00:00:30,405 --> 00:00:31,990 and a human being. 10 00:00:31,990 --> 00:00:35,076 Welcome to the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are 11 00:00:35,243 --> 00:00:39,289 helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more 12 00:00:39,289 --> 00:00:42,917 effectively and make a bigger difference for their teams, organizations, 13 00:00:43,209 --> 00:00:43,918 and the world. 14 00:00:43,918 --> 00:00:47,172 If you are listening to this podcast in the future, you could join us 15 00:00:47,172 --> 00:00:50,592 for live episodes on your favorite social channel. 16 00:00:50,675 --> 00:00:53,678 I guess I guess depending on what your favorite social channel is, 17 00:00:54,012 --> 00:00:57,015 you can get information about when those lives happen 18 00:00:57,015 --> 00:01:01,686 and get connected and even ask questions during the shows. 19 00:01:02,353 --> 00:01:04,272 By joining our Facebook or LinkedIn groups. 20 00:01:04,272 --> 00:01:07,776 Two of those platforms that these will be housed on. 21 00:01:07,776 --> 00:01:11,988 And you can do that by going to remarkable podcast.com/facebook 22 00:01:12,405 --> 00:01:15,533 and a remarkable podcast Academy linked in. 23 00:01:15,784 --> 00:01:17,952 Today's episode is brought to you by my latest book. 24 00:01:17,952 --> 00:01:21,873 Flexible leadership navigate uncertainty and lead with confidence. 25 00:01:22,165 --> 00:01:25,001 It's time to realize that styles can get in our way, 26 00:01:25,001 --> 00:01:29,214 and that following our strengths might not always be the best approach 27 00:01:29,380 --> 00:01:33,009 in a world that is more complex and uncertain than ever. 28 00:01:33,551 --> 00:01:35,095 Leaders need a new perspective 29 00:01:35,095 --> 00:01:38,598 and a new set of tools to help them achieve the great results. 30 00:01:39,224 --> 00:01:42,435 Organizations and team members want and need, 31 00:01:42,644 --> 00:01:44,771 and that's what flexible leadership provides you. 32 00:01:44,771 --> 00:01:47,649 You can learn more and get your copy by going to remarkable 33 00:01:47,649 --> 00:01:50,652 podcast.com/flexible. 34 00:01:50,985 --> 00:01:54,656 And with that let me bring in my guest. 35 00:01:54,948 --> 00:01:57,450 His name is Steve Magnus. There he is. 36 00:01:57,450 --> 00:01:58,952 And let me introduce him. 37 00:01:58,952 --> 00:01:59,828 And then we will dive in. 38 00:01:59,828 --> 00:02:04,249 Steve Magnus is a world renowned expert on performance and a bestselling author 39 00:02:04,249 --> 00:02:07,961 of Do Hard Things and the Science of Running. 40 00:02:08,169 --> 00:02:12,423 He is also the coauthor of Peak Performance and The Passion Paradox. 41 00:02:12,465 --> 00:02:16,010 His newest book, Win the Inside Game 42 00:02:17,220 --> 00:02:19,889 How to Move from Surviving to Thriving 43 00:02:19,889 --> 00:02:24,435 and Free Yourself Up to Perform is the focus of our conversation. 44 00:02:24,936 --> 00:02:27,397 He is the co host of the podcast 45 00:02:27,397 --> 00:02:30,775 farewell and the co-founder of The Growth Equation. 46 00:02:30,775 --> 00:02:34,237 He has written for The Atlantic, Runner's World and Sports Illustrated. 47 00:02:34,404 --> 00:02:35,947 He's been featured in The New Yorker, 48 00:02:35,947 --> 00:02:39,075 The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, NPR, and others. 49 00:02:39,701 --> 00:02:41,244 He has served as a performance coach 50 00:02:41,244 --> 00:02:44,247 and speaker for teams and individuals in Major League Baseball, 51 00:02:44,998 --> 00:02:50,003 the NFL, the NBA, the NHL, the military, and lots more. 52 00:02:50,044 --> 00:02:53,590 He lives outside of Houston, Texas, and he's our guest. 53 00:02:53,590 --> 00:02:55,258 Steve, welcome. 54 00:02:55,258 --> 00:02:56,009 Thanks so much. 55 00:02:56,009 --> 00:02:57,969 I'm. I'm glad to be here, Kevin. 56 00:02:57,969 --> 00:03:02,515 All right, so I told you before we went live that I love your book. 57 00:03:02,765 --> 00:03:04,601 Tell me a little bit about your story. 58 00:03:04,601 --> 00:03:06,519 You have an interesting backstory, 59 00:03:06,519 --> 00:03:10,064 and and we don't have time or desire to do all of that. 60 00:03:10,064 --> 00:03:13,902 But tell us a little bit about what leads you to this book and why this book. 61 00:03:14,068 --> 00:03:15,111 There are back. 62 00:03:15,111 --> 00:03:15,820 There we go. 63 00:03:15,820 --> 00:03:16,988 All right. I can see you, Kevin. 64 00:03:16,988 --> 00:03:20,950 So, I mean, the long story short is my background is in running. 65 00:03:20,950 --> 00:03:23,745 I was a very good, high school runner. 66 00:03:23,745 --> 00:03:27,665 Ran a four minute, one second mile way back in high school, and, 67 00:03:28,750 --> 00:03:30,460 you know, thought that was the ticket. 68 00:03:30,460 --> 00:03:33,963 But then I never, ever improved. 69 00:03:33,963 --> 00:03:35,924 And then I got into coaching. 70 00:03:35,924 --> 00:03:37,926 Long story short, you can read about it in the book, 71 00:03:37,926 --> 00:03:40,511 but went through a really tough coaching period 72 00:03:40,511 --> 00:03:43,723 where I essentially witnessed some people, you know, doing 73 00:03:43,723 --> 00:03:47,143 some unethical things and cheating at the highest level. 74 00:03:47,685 --> 00:03:51,940 And all of that experience brought me to a point 75 00:03:51,940 --> 00:03:55,902 where I was like, well, what does it mean to strive for something? 76 00:03:55,902 --> 00:03:58,821 What does it mean to obtain success? 77 00:03:58,821 --> 00:04:03,159 I've seen a path where in my own career I thought the only answer was like, 78 00:04:03,159 --> 00:04:04,702 be obsessed. 79 00:04:04,702 --> 00:04:08,373 Forget everything else, make it my sole identity and go for it. 80 00:04:08,414 --> 00:04:11,584 And all that learning led me to is burnout. 81 00:04:11,626 --> 00:04:12,502 And then I saw it. 82 00:04:12,502 --> 00:04:18,174 In my early coaching career, I saw someone having kind of like a win at all costs 83 00:04:18,174 --> 00:04:22,762 model of, you know, if you want to succeed, it's got to be win at all costs. 84 00:04:22,762 --> 00:04:26,683 That means literally doing everything, anything to get that 85 00:04:26,683 --> 00:04:29,686 accolade, achievement, medal, whatever it is. 86 00:04:29,978 --> 00:04:34,649 And I've always struggled with that because that's not how I saw, 87 00:04:35,900 --> 00:04:38,653 success or striving in a, in a healthy way. 88 00:04:38,653 --> 00:04:42,907 So I really wanted to explore what it means to not only, 89 00:04:42,907 --> 00:04:46,119 you know, perform at a high level, but to look at 90 00:04:46,119 --> 00:04:50,039 how can we do it in a manner that doesn't make us miserable, 91 00:04:50,039 --> 00:04:55,920 that doesn't lead us to doing nefarious things that allows us to feel good about, 92 00:04:55,920 --> 00:05:00,008 you know, the things that we're doing in our our work, life. 93 00:05:01,843 --> 00:05:06,222 So all of this work, this book and in that conversation 94 00:05:06,222 --> 00:05:09,225 leads us to think that this book is going to be about thriving, 95 00:05:09,350 --> 00:05:12,353 which of course, is in the is in the subtitle of the book. 96 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,523 And yet the whole opening of the book, 97 00:05:16,190 --> 00:05:18,484 and I think an incredibly wonderful 98 00:05:18,484 --> 00:05:21,487 part of the book is all about survival mode. 99 00:05:21,487 --> 00:05:23,865 And you make the point. 100 00:05:23,865 --> 00:05:26,284 And I'd like you to share some of it with us, that 101 00:05:27,952 --> 00:05:30,955 an awful lot of us are in survival mode most of the time. 102 00:05:31,039 --> 00:05:34,917 And and I think what will make this most interesting is for us, 103 00:05:35,168 --> 00:05:38,171 for you to tell us more about what you mean by that, 104 00:05:38,504 --> 00:05:41,924 because I think that all of us recognize, you know, survival 105 00:05:41,924 --> 00:05:44,886 in sort of the jungle kind of mode 106 00:05:45,345 --> 00:05:48,139 or in the movie kind of mode. 107 00:05:48,139 --> 00:05:50,475 But you make the point that we're there 108 00:05:50,475 --> 00:05:52,477 a lot more than we might realize psychologically. 109 00:05:52,477 --> 00:05:55,146 So let's talk about that first. I think it's really important. 110 00:05:55,146 --> 00:05:58,399 And everybody, as Steve talks about this, I'd like you to think about this both 111 00:05:59,317 --> 00:06:03,071 for yourself but also with your leader hat on. 112 00:06:03,071 --> 00:06:06,282 And I'm not asking you to judge others, but I think that as you listen, you'll 113 00:06:06,282 --> 00:06:09,911 get some sense of how this is valuable and thinking about where others are, too. 114 00:06:10,328 --> 00:06:11,329 Yeah, absolutely. 115 00:06:11,329 --> 00:06:14,040 So if we look at let's start at the jungle. 116 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:14,749 Right? 117 00:06:14,749 --> 00:06:17,752 So if we were in the jungle surviving 118 00:06:17,835 --> 00:06:21,631 and we were under a real threat, we'd have a stress response. 119 00:06:22,090 --> 00:06:25,927 And that stress response would put us in a place where we would essentially 120 00:06:25,927 --> 00:06:31,140 have short term thinking on, oh my gosh, how do I survive this situation? 121 00:06:31,140 --> 00:06:34,644 Like there's a lion, a tiger, we're running out of food. 122 00:06:34,644 --> 00:06:38,314 Whatever it is, forget the future, forget the long term. 123 00:06:38,314 --> 00:06:41,150 Like what gets me through this next moment, right? 124 00:06:41,150 --> 00:06:43,486 It's that fight or flight moment. 125 00:06:43,486 --> 00:06:46,239 And what we know is when we're in that spot. 126 00:06:46,239 --> 00:06:50,618 Yeah, it might help us, you know, escape the lion, but it's. 127 00:06:51,119 --> 00:06:54,705 Yeah, I know short term, but it's really damaging over the long haul. 128 00:06:55,039 --> 00:06:58,042 Now let's zoom out and take that to our modern world. 129 00:06:58,626 --> 00:07:01,963 A lot of us are in a state where we're so focused 130 00:07:01,963 --> 00:07:06,217 on the short term, where it feels like, okay, everything is overwhelming. 131 00:07:06,217 --> 00:07:08,970 There's too much information, there's too much overload. 132 00:07:08,970 --> 00:07:12,515 I don't know what to do about anything, so I'm just going to tackle 133 00:07:12,515 --> 00:07:14,475 the next problem in front of me. 134 00:07:14,475 --> 00:07:17,895 And what happens is we get stuck in this kind of survival mode where 135 00:07:17,895 --> 00:07:21,607 instead of thinking about the future, instead of being able to zoom out, 136 00:07:22,066 --> 00:07:25,486 instead of thinking, what is the impact of this? 137 00:07:25,653 --> 00:07:28,906 We just get caught up in like, how do I get through this thing? 138 00:07:28,906 --> 00:07:32,910 And to make it clear for folks is when we live 139 00:07:32,910 --> 00:07:37,373 in this kind of survival mode for too long, we end up doing things 140 00:07:37,373 --> 00:07:42,545 like avoiding the hard thing right now that gives us lasting growth. 141 00:07:43,045 --> 00:07:46,924 We do things like rationalize and justify decisions 142 00:07:46,924 --> 00:07:50,595 instead of working through them and saying, where's the truth? 143 00:07:50,595 --> 00:07:54,432 Where's the thing that will help me, you know, get through this? 144 00:07:54,432 --> 00:07:59,479 Essentially, the case that I make is it's almost like we're, we're back in middle 145 00:07:59,479 --> 00:08:04,525 school, right where we're looking around and we're like, I'm really anxious. 146 00:08:04,734 --> 00:08:06,694 I don't quite know where I fit in. 147 00:08:06,694 --> 00:08:09,614 I don't quite know where my direction is going. 148 00:08:09,614 --> 00:08:12,074 I don't know what to do. 149 00:08:12,074 --> 00:08:15,620 And because of that, we get in that survival short term mode. 150 00:08:15,620 --> 00:08:20,249 And instead I make the argument that what we need to do is, like you know, 151 00:08:20,249 --> 00:08:22,960 get out of that zoom out, get some perspective, 152 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,589 and also fulfill ourselves so that we can have 153 00:08:26,589 --> 00:08:30,426 that security that allows us to do do so over the long fall. 154 00:08:31,302 --> 00:08:33,596 So you hinted at a couple of those things that we do. 155 00:08:33,596 --> 00:08:36,933 You call them the protective systems in the book. 156 00:08:36,933 --> 00:08:39,435 Right? And you said, well, sometimes we have we want to avoid it. 157 00:08:39,435 --> 00:08:41,687 Sometimes we try to defend ourselves. 158 00:08:41,687 --> 00:08:44,148 Sometimes we try to narrow our focus. 159 00:08:44,148 --> 00:08:46,734 We don't stay broad, we go narrow. 160 00:08:46,734 --> 00:08:50,029 And then there's one other one that's actually far more 161 00:08:50,029 --> 00:08:51,614 helpful than the first three. 162 00:08:54,116 --> 00:08:55,785 And that's called accepting 163 00:08:55,785 --> 00:08:58,871 and thinking about how do I grow from this point? 164 00:08:59,705 --> 00:09:03,834 Why is it that we lean on the first three and not the fourth? 165 00:09:03,834 --> 00:09:05,878 Most of the time? 166 00:09:05,878 --> 00:09:09,507 The simple answer is your brain is designed 167 00:09:09,507 --> 00:09:12,510 as a uncertainty reducing machine. 168 00:09:13,469 --> 00:09:16,639 So when we're in those moments, what is stress? 169 00:09:16,639 --> 00:09:18,099 It's uncertainty. 170 00:09:18,099 --> 00:09:22,103 I don't know how this is going to, you know, work out. 171 00:09:22,395 --> 00:09:25,189 I'm not sure what path to go in. 172 00:09:25,189 --> 00:09:28,734 The simplest route is those first three, 173 00:09:29,151 --> 00:09:33,239 which if we want to reduce uncertainty, what's the best way we avoid the thing? 174 00:09:33,239 --> 00:09:35,449 We'll just just get it out right now. 175 00:09:35,449 --> 00:09:36,117 Right? 176 00:09:36,117 --> 00:09:39,120 Or we, you know, go into that defensive mode. 177 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,790 I'm going to deny the reality of the prospect that exists. 178 00:09:42,790 --> 00:09:45,585 Yeah. Stick your head in the sand. 179 00:09:45,585 --> 00:09:46,544 That's what it is. 180 00:09:46,544 --> 00:09:50,256 The last one really sucks in the short term. 181 00:09:50,548 --> 00:09:53,593 And it doesn't reduce uncertainty in the short time 182 00:09:53,593 --> 00:09:56,887 because you're essentially saying it's a really stressful time. 183 00:09:57,471 --> 00:09:59,098 I don't have the answer. 184 00:09:59,098 --> 00:10:02,518 I'm not quite sure what the path forward is, 185 00:10:03,144 --> 00:10:07,607 but I need to accept that and then figure out how do we transform 186 00:10:07,607 --> 00:10:11,944 this into learning and growth over the long haul, it's more beneficial, 187 00:10:12,194 --> 00:10:15,823 but in the short term it doesn't eliminate that stress. 188 00:10:15,823 --> 00:10:19,118 And often we're in we're in the survival mode, our brain. 189 00:10:19,118 --> 00:10:22,079 All that cares about is like, how do we reduce the stress right now? 190 00:10:22,079 --> 00:10:23,706 How do we get rid of this discomfort? 191 00:10:23,706 --> 00:10:26,417 I don't like how it feels like just get rid of it. 192 00:10:26,417 --> 00:10:28,377 Forget the long term consequences. 193 00:10:29,420 --> 00:10:31,631 And I agree. 194 00:10:31,631 --> 00:10:35,426 And I mentioned to you before we went live that I see all sorts of parallels 195 00:10:35,426 --> 00:10:37,595 and that some of the stuff that you're writing about 196 00:10:37,595 --> 00:10:40,598 is extremely connected to my new book, Flexible Leadership. 197 00:10:40,806 --> 00:10:45,186 And this is one of those places because I and I love your line, uncertain. 198 00:10:45,186 --> 00:10:47,772 But, our brains are uncertainty reducing machines. 199 00:10:47,772 --> 00:10:50,566 I think that's right. And yet there's a certainty all around us. 200 00:10:50,566 --> 00:10:53,069 And as leaders, we have to. 201 00:10:53,069 --> 00:10:55,071 We can't be the ostrich. 202 00:10:55,071 --> 00:11:00,284 And too often we end up defending or justifying our natural response. 203 00:11:00,785 --> 00:11:04,080 And I'm suggesting and you're suggesting that we have to move 204 00:11:04,330 --> 00:11:07,416 past our natural response, that fourth thing that accept, 205 00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:11,045 learn, grow, integrate idea 206 00:11:11,504 --> 00:11:14,465 is where we can move past, 207 00:11:15,925 --> 00:11:18,844 where we can move past our natural response, 208 00:11:18,844 --> 00:11:21,305 which is to do one of those first three things 209 00:11:21,305 --> 00:11:24,975 or to lean into our identity, which says, well, this is just the way I am. 210 00:11:26,352 --> 00:11:28,270 Yeah, you're you're right. 211 00:11:28,270 --> 00:11:29,563 You're you're spot on. 212 00:11:29,563 --> 00:11:32,566 And I think this is why it's so important to leadership. 213 00:11:32,650 --> 00:11:33,859 Because think about it. 214 00:11:33,859 --> 00:11:36,445 We all know we have this natural response. 215 00:11:36,445 --> 00:11:39,407 Think about when something went wrong 216 00:11:39,407 --> 00:11:42,201 or where you messed up or when you chose. 217 00:11:42,201 --> 00:11:44,662 I don't have. To think very far back. Right. Eve? 218 00:11:44,662 --> 00:11:47,289 Like probably this morning. Right. Exactly. 219 00:11:47,289 --> 00:11:50,334 We all experience this especially in leadership, but also in life. 220 00:11:50,710 --> 00:11:52,336 And what's the natural response? 221 00:11:52,336 --> 00:11:56,966 I'll give you a better example here is, is this how many of times 222 00:11:56,966 --> 00:12:01,095 have you got in an argument with your significant other or spouse? 223 00:12:01,554 --> 00:12:04,557 And what you're doing is you're defending the argument 224 00:12:05,015 --> 00:12:08,018 instead of listening and understanding like, 225 00:12:08,060 --> 00:12:13,190 oh gosh, this is a simple solution, but we can't get past that 226 00:12:13,190 --> 00:12:16,193 initial response, which is, this is a threat to me. 227 00:12:16,235 --> 00:12:18,028 You're attacking something that I did. 228 00:12:18,028 --> 00:12:21,282 So we're going to go back and forth on this when the reality 229 00:12:21,282 --> 00:12:24,285 is you're both on the same team trying to figure it out. 230 00:12:24,326 --> 00:12:27,788 And if you realize that, you'd be like, okay, let's rationally 231 00:12:27,788 --> 00:12:31,208 get through this, move past it and then say, what is that? 232 00:12:31,208 --> 00:12:32,752 What is the learning and growing 233 00:12:32,752 --> 00:12:36,672 so that we can, you know, we don't have to face the same challenge beforehand. 234 00:12:36,672 --> 00:12:38,257 But that's not our natural response. 235 00:12:38,257 --> 00:12:40,634 Our natural response is, no, I'm in the right. 236 00:12:40,634 --> 00:12:41,594 You're in the wrong. 237 00:12:41,594 --> 00:12:45,473 Even though we're staring at the person we love the most in the world. 238 00:12:46,098 --> 00:12:48,517 And they are not a lion or a tiger. 239 00:12:48,517 --> 00:12:50,561 And you're in the grocery store, not the jungle. 240 00:12:50,561 --> 00:12:53,105 So look at the totally different thing going on here. 241 00:12:53,105 --> 00:12:56,525 And yet our the way we're wired at some level. 242 00:12:56,525 --> 00:12:57,276 Right. 243 00:12:57,276 --> 00:13:00,529 And that's why I think this opening part is so important. 244 00:13:00,529 --> 00:13:01,572 You know, it's 245 00:13:02,740 --> 00:13:04,366 as, as writers, you and 246 00:13:04,366 --> 00:13:08,245 I and I appreciate this, you know, move from thriving to surviving. 247 00:13:08,245 --> 00:13:11,207 It sounds good and it's true. Don't misunderstand me. 248 00:13:11,207 --> 00:13:14,001 And yet we throw that word surviving around a lot. 249 00:13:14,001 --> 00:13:17,004 And the point that you're making and you make in the book so. 250 00:13:17,004 --> 00:13:20,007 Well is that, 251 00:13:20,049 --> 00:13:22,843 we treat a lot of stuff like surviving that we don't need to 252 00:13:22,843 --> 00:13:27,431 if we would take a deep breath and step back and think about it, 253 00:13:27,431 --> 00:13:31,685 we can get out of these protective, these first three protective systems. 254 00:13:33,312 --> 00:13:36,440 You use a phrase in the book, a couple of different places, 255 00:13:36,941 --> 00:13:39,485 and it it really struck me. 256 00:13:39,485 --> 00:13:41,403 And so I'm curious what you mean, or say 257 00:13:41,403 --> 00:13:44,406 a little bit more about this idea that we tend to flatten our world. 258 00:13:45,950 --> 00:13:48,077 What do you mean? 259 00:13:48,077 --> 00:13:54,166 So here's what our brain tends to do is we need to make sense of the world 260 00:13:54,166 --> 00:13:58,963 that we live in, because our brain is essentially a it's predictive meaning. 261 00:13:59,463 --> 00:14:01,549 As we go through the world, 262 00:14:01,549 --> 00:14:05,094 we look around and our brain is like, how do I handle this next challenge? 263 00:14:05,094 --> 00:14:06,971 What's this next thing coming on? 264 00:14:06,971 --> 00:14:11,141 I'm about to get on on stage and have to give my pitch like, well, 265 00:14:11,225 --> 00:14:12,434 do I need anxiety? 266 00:14:12,434 --> 00:14:14,520 Do I need nerves? Do I need excitement? 267 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,523 How am I going to handle this psychologically and biologically? 268 00:14:18,274 --> 00:14:22,194 And what I mean by flatten is because of our predictive 269 00:14:22,236 --> 00:14:26,490 kind of brain, the easiest, simplest way to make sense of the world 270 00:14:26,490 --> 00:14:30,536 is to flatten it, to turn us into like 2D caricatures. 271 00:14:31,161 --> 00:14:34,999 And what I mean is you you can probably think of situations 272 00:14:34,999 --> 00:14:38,627 where you do this, where you have people in your workplace 273 00:14:39,545 --> 00:14:42,548 who you essentially categorize by their job 274 00:14:42,923 --> 00:14:46,176 or what they do, or some simple characteristic. 275 00:14:46,176 --> 00:14:48,554 You're like, you got all. Kinds of ways we do that. 276 00:14:48,554 --> 00:14:52,057 Yeah, you're like, That's Jill, she's the accountant, 277 00:14:52,266 --> 00:14:57,897 or that's that's Joe, you know, he's very neurotic. 278 00:14:57,897 --> 00:15:01,734 Whatever it is, we just flatten people into simple labels 279 00:15:01,734 --> 00:15:03,736 that help us categorize that. 280 00:15:03,736 --> 00:15:08,115 And we don't just do it to other people, we also do it to ourselves. 281 00:15:08,115 --> 00:15:08,532 Right? 282 00:15:08,532 --> 00:15:12,369 We define ourselves by a few simple characteristics, 283 00:15:12,828 --> 00:15:15,915 and that helps us kind of process in our brain. 284 00:15:15,915 --> 00:15:19,126 Be like, okay, when I enter should situation with Joe, 285 00:15:19,126 --> 00:15:22,087 I know that he's like very meticulous. 286 00:15:22,212 --> 00:15:26,425 So this is how I'm going to treat him in that two degree like helps. 287 00:15:26,425 --> 00:15:30,971 But if we live in that flattened world, what happens is pretty simple 288 00:15:31,305 --> 00:15:35,351 is that we become kind of fragile, 289 00:15:35,351 --> 00:15:38,354 both in our leadership style and our sense of self. 290 00:15:39,104 --> 00:15:41,398 Because if we don't realize 291 00:15:41,398 --> 00:15:45,444 and recognize the complexity of the humans sitting across from us, 292 00:15:46,028 --> 00:15:49,031 then a that means that we are not 293 00:15:49,031 --> 00:15:52,034 going to be connected with them. 294 00:15:52,159 --> 00:15:57,873 Because one of the big things on connection and belonging is that you 295 00:15:57,998 --> 00:16:01,627 you get this like vulnerability and trust cycle, which occurs 296 00:16:01,627 --> 00:16:05,881 because someone realizes that, hey, you know, Kevin sees me 297 00:16:05,923 --> 00:16:09,760 as more of an accountant, like he sees me as a human being. 298 00:16:10,511 --> 00:16:13,806 And when you get that, you say, okay, I'm going to buy into whatever 299 00:16:13,806 --> 00:16:17,226 Kevin's saying because, like, I know he's got my back. 300 00:16:17,518 --> 00:16:22,147 And on the B the other side of this is that even with ourselves, right. 301 00:16:22,356 --> 00:16:26,151 If we see ourselves and flatten ourselves as like, I am Steve 302 00:16:26,151 --> 00:16:29,780 and I am a runner, and that is only what I'm defined as, 303 00:16:30,656 --> 00:16:34,118 then what happens is if running or your job, 304 00:16:34,118 --> 00:16:38,372 if you're the CEO or leader or manager, if that's all you have, 305 00:16:38,998 --> 00:16:41,917 then the moment that that starts to go poorly, 306 00:16:41,917 --> 00:16:44,211 let's say you get a poor job review, 307 00:16:44,211 --> 00:16:47,548 then all of a sudden it feels like it's the end of the world because 308 00:16:47,548 --> 00:16:51,760 you flatten yourself where you don't see all the many shades of gray 309 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,681 and other things that you do and are interested in in, in, 310 00:16:56,473 --> 00:16:59,476 diversified sources of meaning that you have. 311 00:17:00,102 --> 00:17:02,354 So flattening makes us fragile. 312 00:17:03,355 --> 00:17:04,648 So we're talking about our identity. 313 00:17:04,648 --> 00:17:07,651 Every one of the things that you say later in the book that I thought was a really 314 00:17:07,651 --> 00:17:09,194 the way you said it, I thought was really interesting. 315 00:17:09,194 --> 00:17:11,113 You said, we all die once. 316 00:17:11,113 --> 00:17:13,490 Athletes die twice. 317 00:17:13,490 --> 00:17:17,536 And you said it in the context of professional athletes, right? 318 00:17:17,536 --> 00:17:19,496 That when their career ends, they have defined 319 00:17:19,496 --> 00:17:23,250 they have almost assuredly defined themselves. As, 320 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:26,462 as a player of that sport. 321 00:17:26,462 --> 00:17:27,671 Right. 322 00:17:27,671 --> 00:17:30,424 And when that is no longer there, then what happens? 323 00:17:30,424 --> 00:17:32,051 And, you know, we've all heard, 324 00:17:32,051 --> 00:17:35,054 whether you're a sports fan or not, we've heard some of the, the, 325 00:17:35,220 --> 00:17:38,557 the, the, the sad stories about how that ends. 326 00:17:39,308 --> 00:17:41,769 We also have examples where it's, there's there's good stories, 327 00:17:41,769 --> 00:17:45,105 but that's because they were able to manage and think about this identity 328 00:17:45,564 --> 00:17:46,648 piece a little bit more. 329 00:17:46,648 --> 00:17:49,651 And everything you're saying about flattening 330 00:17:49,860 --> 00:17:52,863 ourselves and, and the way we flatten others is so important. 331 00:17:52,863 --> 00:17:53,739 And as it relates 332 00:17:53,739 --> 00:17:57,409 to how we flatten ourselves, we we call ourselves we're an accountant. 333 00:17:57,409 --> 00:17:59,119 We're this we're a leader. We're whatever. 334 00:18:00,162 --> 00:18:01,830 And we don't think about, 335 00:18:01,830 --> 00:18:06,585 maybe the best chapter title 336 00:18:06,585 --> 00:18:10,589 I will see all year, which is accept the messiness of who you are. 337 00:18:10,798 --> 00:18:13,926 So I want us to talk about accepting the messiness, 338 00:18:14,176 --> 00:18:17,137 because as humans, we are, 339 00:18:17,596 --> 00:18:21,683 without question, messy, which means we can't define ourselves by one 340 00:18:21,683 --> 00:18:26,105 word, one phrase, one personality style, one leadership style, whatever. 341 00:18:26,105 --> 00:18:29,108 One generation, however you want to put that. 342 00:18:29,441 --> 00:18:33,529 So why is it so important if we want to move towards thriving, 343 00:18:34,655 --> 00:18:37,783 that we accept our messiness, and then perhaps even how, Steve, 344 00:18:37,866 --> 00:18:40,869 can we help others accept theirs? 345 00:18:40,911 --> 00:18:43,038 Yeah, it's important because, as I said, 346 00:18:43,038 --> 00:18:46,041 when we flatten ourselves, we make us ourselves fragile. 347 00:18:46,208 --> 00:18:49,211 When we accept the messiness, we become resilient. 348 00:18:49,628 --> 00:18:51,255 And it's it's very simple. 349 00:18:51,255 --> 00:18:53,090 The reason is this is because 350 00:18:54,174 --> 00:18:54,675 if you 351 00:18:54,675 --> 00:18:58,595 accept the complexity of the person that you are in the interest 352 00:18:58,595 --> 00:19:02,558 you have, the strengths you have, and even the weaknesses or the flaws 353 00:19:02,558 --> 00:19:05,561 or the drawbacks or whatever it is, the things you struggle with. 354 00:19:06,728 --> 00:19:09,314 If you accept that, then your brain goes, 355 00:19:09,314 --> 00:19:12,693 okay, like I get it, this is part of who I am. 356 00:19:13,193 --> 00:19:15,529 Hey, that allows me to work on the thing. 357 00:19:15,529 --> 00:19:18,532 If I say, hey, this is a weakness, I want to get better at this. 358 00:19:18,615 --> 00:19:20,659 If I have accepted, I can work on it. 359 00:19:20,659 --> 00:19:24,997 And B is if for whatever reason, if that shows up, 360 00:19:25,122 --> 00:19:28,125 you're like, okay, yes, this is part of me 361 00:19:28,458 --> 00:19:31,086 and I can navigate it if you don't. 362 00:19:31,086 --> 00:19:35,090 If you go with that, we'll call that Instagram version of yourself 363 00:19:35,465 --> 00:19:37,718 where you show everybody the highlights. 364 00:19:37,718 --> 00:19:39,011 You paint the best picture. 365 00:19:39,011 --> 00:19:44,349 You say, I'm always happy, fit, fun and at my best, 366 00:19:44,975 --> 00:19:49,271 well, what happens is reality is going to smack you in the face at some point. 367 00:19:49,646 --> 00:19:52,608 Yeah, and if you fed your brain 368 00:19:52,608 --> 00:19:56,236 the information that I'm the best, I always figure it out. 369 00:19:56,445 --> 00:20:01,491 I'm always, you know, A, B and C, then when reality smacks you in the face, 370 00:20:01,491 --> 00:20:04,494 your brain is going to go like, hey, wait a minute. 371 00:20:04,745 --> 00:20:08,457 Like this isn't this isn't what we thought was coming. 372 00:20:08,707 --> 00:20:10,918 This isn't who we thought we were. 373 00:20:10,918 --> 00:20:11,919 And because of that, 374 00:20:11,919 --> 00:20:15,464 your brain is going to default to that avoidance and protect mode. 375 00:20:15,714 --> 00:20:19,092 You know, because it's saying like, this isn't what we signed up for. 376 00:20:19,301 --> 00:20:22,930 The example I like to give in sports, which I think really highlights 377 00:20:22,930 --> 00:20:26,350 this is is this is if I sign up for a marathon. 378 00:20:27,226 --> 00:20:30,729 And even as a runner I say, hey, this is going to be really freaking tough 379 00:20:30,729 --> 00:20:32,648 because there's no balance about it. 380 00:20:32,648 --> 00:20:35,025 It's always tough, right? 381 00:20:35,025 --> 00:20:37,110 No matter how much you train, it's always tough. 382 00:20:37,110 --> 00:20:39,279 And you say, this is the reality. 383 00:20:39,279 --> 00:20:41,573 This is what I bring to the table, right? 384 00:20:41,573 --> 00:20:45,160 This is approximately maybe what I think I can accomplish. 385 00:20:45,410 --> 00:20:49,331 If you do that, then even when it gets tough, your brain is going to go like, 386 00:20:49,331 --> 00:20:53,210 yeah, I expected it get to tough, but we're prepared for it. 387 00:20:53,502 --> 00:20:56,964 If instead I went with the Instagram version and said, 388 00:20:57,256 --> 00:21:01,301 Steve, you're a lifelong runner, this is no problem. 389 00:21:01,301 --> 00:21:04,930 Like you've been in situations like this before all the time. 390 00:21:04,930 --> 00:21:08,558 Like you're going to handle this with a breeze the minute you get to whatever. 391 00:21:08,558 --> 00:21:12,104 Mile 1819, 20 in reality, smacks you in your face. 392 00:21:12,354 --> 00:21:15,482 Your brain is going to go, I didn't sign up for this. 393 00:21:15,482 --> 00:21:18,485 This is not what you told me that you know was coming. 394 00:21:18,819 --> 00:21:21,822 And I'm going to try and convince you to quit, 395 00:21:21,822 --> 00:21:25,951 which is that protect mode, because, like, we didn't sign up for it. 396 00:21:26,118 --> 00:21:28,704 It's the same with our identities, right? 397 00:21:28,704 --> 00:21:31,999 If we flatten it instead of accept the messiness, 398 00:21:32,207 --> 00:21:36,128 we set ourselves up for that fragility and that avoidance and that protection. 399 00:21:37,296 --> 00:21:40,299 And from a leadership perspective, we set ourselves up to say, well, 400 00:21:40,340 --> 00:21:43,802 listen, you just have to accept this is how this is how I lead. 401 00:21:43,927 --> 00:21:46,096 So we go in to defend you. 402 00:21:46,096 --> 00:21:49,766 The other thing, you know, while we go into defending, justifying 403 00:21:50,017 --> 00:21:51,435 and all that stuff, well, 404 00:21:51,435 --> 00:21:54,646 and then we also everybody can start blaming others for the 405 00:21:55,063 --> 00:21:57,607 things that happen as opposed to saying, well, what part of this is ours? 406 00:21:57,607 --> 00:21:59,943 So there's a whole accountability piece here. 407 00:21:59,943 --> 00:22:01,570 So I do want to talk about one of 408 00:22:01,570 --> 00:22:05,157 the words that gets used in leadership circles a lot. 409 00:22:05,699 --> 00:22:07,034 And it relates to all this stuff. 410 00:22:07,034 --> 00:22:08,702 We're talking about our identity. 411 00:22:08,702 --> 00:22:10,245 We're talking about messiness. 412 00:22:10,245 --> 00:22:13,123 We're talking about 2D to 3D, like all that stuff. 413 00:22:13,123 --> 00:22:16,543 But where where does authenticity fit in here then? 414 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:17,336 Like, 415 00:22:18,503 --> 00:22:19,004 what does it 416 00:22:19,004 --> 00:22:22,716 mean to be authentic given what we've just described? 417 00:22:22,966 --> 00:22:26,636 Because, you know, people want to see more of us 418 00:22:26,636 --> 00:22:30,515 than the Instagram image or short or whatever you want to call it. 419 00:22:30,932 --> 00:22:32,851 So what's your take? 420 00:22:32,851 --> 00:22:35,645 Or what would your research say to us 421 00:22:35,645 --> 00:22:38,732 about advice about being more authentic? 422 00:22:39,649 --> 00:22:42,277 So here's what I think matters 423 00:22:42,277 --> 00:22:46,698 is that when we talk about authenticity, there's almost like 424 00:22:46,698 --> 00:22:49,701 a performative variety, meaning 425 00:22:49,993 --> 00:22:52,788 I've heard I should be authentic. 426 00:22:52,788 --> 00:22:58,168 So I'm going to, you know, share a story or two, hear and make people think 427 00:22:58,168 --> 00:23:01,755 that, like, I'm being vulnerable and open and all of that good stuff. 428 00:23:02,464 --> 00:23:05,884 And then there's the real variety, which I think is more important, 429 00:23:05,884 --> 00:23:08,970 in which authenticity, authenticity is essentially like 430 00:23:09,763 --> 00:23:13,558 being who you are in the moment and letting people see that 431 00:23:13,934 --> 00:23:17,229 not just through your words, but also your actions. 432 00:23:17,896 --> 00:23:20,440 So if you are the person who, you know, 433 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:25,404 maybe has a little bit of a more hard edge and in leadership like, 434 00:23:25,779 --> 00:23:30,033 that's okay to degree, you've just got to like be authentic 435 00:23:30,033 --> 00:23:33,787 in that, that, that who you are and not like try and sugarcoat it 436 00:23:33,787 --> 00:23:35,956 and not try and, you know, fake it through. 437 00:23:35,956 --> 00:23:36,790 Do this. 438 00:23:36,790 --> 00:23:41,253 And I think that's the key difference there is that authenticity is good 439 00:23:41,795 --> 00:23:45,048 as long it is it is not the performative variety. 440 00:23:45,048 --> 00:23:49,928 And the last thing I'll say is, if you look at the psychology research, 441 00:23:51,012 --> 00:23:51,763 is that 442 00:23:51,763 --> 00:23:54,933 human beings are experts at reading signals. 443 00:23:56,393 --> 00:24:00,313 And what I mean by that is we're experts at not only listening 444 00:24:00,313 --> 00:24:04,693 to what you're saying, but picking up, like, your actions, 445 00:24:04,693 --> 00:24:08,363 your body language, and seeing if those two match. 446 00:24:09,239 --> 00:24:13,118 And I think when we comes to authenticity, this is why it's really important. 447 00:24:13,118 --> 00:24:17,080 Because if I'm saying one thing, but my body language, 448 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:21,126 my actions behind it, all of that is pointing in the other direction. 449 00:24:21,293 --> 00:24:24,880 Our brain will pick it up and be like, there's something off here. 450 00:24:25,672 --> 00:24:28,675 I'm not going to quite by what this person is saying. 451 00:24:28,967 --> 00:24:33,680 And I think that's that right there is the key to authenticity is like, 452 00:24:33,972 --> 00:24:38,560 you've got to have everything aligned so that that person on the receiving end 453 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,771 getting the signal says like, okay, he's being real. 454 00:24:41,771 --> 00:24:45,400 Like, I need to listen to this, to accept it. 455 00:24:46,151 --> 00:24:48,612 And so if, for example, 456 00:24:48,612 --> 00:24:52,449 I love that if I am that leader, I'll just use your example with that. 457 00:24:52,449 --> 00:24:55,368 More of a hard edge that doesn't mean we stay there. 458 00:24:55,368 --> 00:24:56,578 And just I mean, we lean into that. 459 00:24:56,578 --> 00:24:59,956 It means that it's and if that comes out, it's okay. 460 00:25:00,373 --> 00:25:03,001 But if in that moment, if the context of that situation 461 00:25:03,001 --> 00:25:05,587 that isn't serving us, then we've got to be able to shift 462 00:25:05,587 --> 00:25:08,882 the may even need to apologize, or whatever. 463 00:25:08,882 --> 00:25:13,929 But that authenticity isn't a an excuse 464 00:25:14,679 --> 00:25:18,433 to just do whatever the heck we think is who we are and not try to get better. 465 00:25:18,725 --> 00:25:19,100 Yeah. 466 00:25:19,100 --> 00:25:22,020 It's that it's that spot on. 467 00:25:22,020 --> 00:25:23,480 It's exactly what you talking about. 468 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,316 It's that flexible and adaptable leadership. 469 00:25:26,316 --> 00:25:30,362 It's authenticity is seeing the situation for what it is, right. 470 00:25:30,487 --> 00:25:34,074 If you have that hard edge and you explode on someone, it's not being like, 471 00:25:34,616 --> 00:25:35,700 that's just who I am. 472 00:25:35,700 --> 00:25:38,495 I explode on people. It's realizing and seeing 473 00:25:39,538 --> 00:25:41,289 in this situation. 474 00:25:41,289 --> 00:25:45,794 This had a negative effect on A, B and C, and I realized and could see that 475 00:25:45,794 --> 00:25:49,548 this is my this is on me for going too far in that direction. 476 00:25:50,257 --> 00:25:53,843 It can be my natural response, but it doesn't have to be my 477 00:25:54,636 --> 00:25:56,930 it doesn't have to be my auto response. 478 00:25:56,930 --> 00:25:58,640 Yes, that's a huge difference. 479 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,643 So, I, 480 00:26:02,644 --> 00:26:04,437 could spend the entire entire conversation 481 00:26:04,437 --> 00:26:07,440 times three just on this identity and survival stuff. 482 00:26:07,566 --> 00:26:12,070 But I want us to at least move to what you mean by thriving. 483 00:26:12,070 --> 00:26:14,948 And so I want to ask a couple more questions before we finish. 484 00:26:14,948 --> 00:26:17,951 So when you say thriving, 485 00:26:18,243 --> 00:26:18,994 what does that mean? 486 00:26:18,994 --> 00:26:21,538 Because we've mostly been talking about surviving so far. 487 00:26:21,538 --> 00:26:23,206 Like what does it mean? 488 00:26:23,206 --> 00:26:26,209 But how would you define thriving for us? 489 00:26:26,293 --> 00:26:27,836 Yeah, I think what it is. 490 00:26:27,836 --> 00:26:32,132 And if you look at the psychology research, it's defined in so many different ways. 491 00:26:33,216 --> 00:26:35,176 But to me 492 00:26:35,176 --> 00:26:37,721 it looks that 493 00:26:37,721 --> 00:26:40,807 you feel like you have autonomy, 494 00:26:41,349 --> 00:26:46,229 meaning like you have some say in the direction that you're headed. 495 00:26:46,855 --> 00:26:48,773 You feel like you're contributing. 496 00:26:48,773 --> 00:26:51,651 There's some significance behind the work that you're doing. 497 00:26:51,651 --> 00:26:53,570 And we're talking about thriving in the workplace. 498 00:26:53,570 --> 00:26:57,365 We could talk about sports, but the same thing there's significance. 499 00:26:57,365 --> 00:27:00,368 You're a contributor. It's meaningful. 500 00:27:00,368 --> 00:27:02,162 You feel like you belong. 501 00:27:02,162 --> 00:27:06,958 Meaning there is connection to those around you and you feel like 502 00:27:07,876 --> 00:27:10,545 you're essentially at home, right? 503 00:27:10,545 --> 00:27:12,547 You have a spot. 504 00:27:12,547 --> 00:27:16,968 And I think when we look at those kind of three things and we could again 505 00:27:17,385 --> 00:27:21,306 include things like competency, meaning like you feel like you're 506 00:27:21,306 --> 00:27:23,516 making progress towards something meaningful. 507 00:27:23,516 --> 00:27:24,893 There's all sorts of variations, 508 00:27:24,893 --> 00:27:28,396 but to me that is it is like we want to feel significant. 509 00:27:28,396 --> 00:27:29,481 We want to feel directed. 510 00:27:29,481 --> 00:27:31,066 We want to feel belonging 511 00:27:31,066 --> 00:27:34,778 and if we have those things, then chances are in the research backs 512 00:27:34,778 --> 00:27:38,907 this up is we're going to stoke our intrinsic motivation, 513 00:27:39,658 --> 00:27:41,910 meaning we're not going to just be motivated by 514 00:27:41,910 --> 00:27:45,121 the accolades, achievements, the money, whatever it is. 515 00:27:45,121 --> 00:27:49,376 But for the joy of the pursuit, for the challenge of the thing, 516 00:27:49,376 --> 00:27:53,088 the task we're taking on and what we know over the long haul 517 00:27:53,088 --> 00:27:56,383 is that intrinsic motivation is is a better fuel, 518 00:27:56,716 --> 00:28:00,845 and we feel better doing it even when we're going 519 00:28:00,845 --> 00:28:03,848 through difficult times when we have that is the back, but. 520 00:28:04,182 --> 00:28:06,893 Far, far more powerful. 521 00:28:06,893 --> 00:28:09,896 So, you know that, 522 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,566 this is the show is called the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, 523 00:28:13,566 --> 00:28:14,901 and we've hinted at that a little bit. 524 00:28:14,901 --> 00:28:17,529 Is there anything else, though, that you would say? 525 00:28:17,529 --> 00:28:20,573 Because the book isn't everybody, we're talking with Steve 526 00:28:20,573 --> 00:28:23,576 Magnus, the author of Win the Inside Game. 527 00:28:23,785 --> 00:28:29,290 And, the book is specifically a, quote, leadership book, right? 528 00:28:29,708 --> 00:28:32,919 For us to be highly effective leaders, the better, the better 529 00:28:32,919 --> 00:28:35,922 we become as a human, the better we have the chance to become as a leader, 530 00:28:36,005 --> 00:28:38,049 which is one of the reasons why I have you here. 531 00:28:38,049 --> 00:28:40,343 But is there a is there any specific 532 00:28:41,386 --> 00:28:42,345 advice or 533 00:28:42,345 --> 00:28:45,515 counsel that you would give us with our leadership? 534 00:28:45,515 --> 00:28:48,518 Hats on, based on the work in this book? 535 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,145 Oh, that's a great question. 536 00:28:50,145 --> 00:28:53,148 And I think you you nailed the question, which is 537 00:28:53,314 --> 00:28:56,109 I think it starts with often 538 00:28:56,109 --> 00:28:59,738 leaders almost neglecting ignore themselves 539 00:29:01,197 --> 00:29:04,451 because what happens is you're in the leadership position. 540 00:29:04,868 --> 00:29:07,704 You're saying, okay, I've got all these people I'm responsible 541 00:29:07,704 --> 00:29:11,499 for, I want to help them, which is noble, right? 542 00:29:11,499 --> 00:29:13,460 And you see the same thing in teaching 543 00:29:13,460 --> 00:29:15,879 because what our teachers, their leaders of students. 544 00:29:15,879 --> 00:29:16,546 Right. 545 00:29:16,546 --> 00:29:20,175 And neglecting it and because of that, if you look at the data and the research 546 00:29:20,383 --> 00:29:24,554 both and leadership positions, teaching or other other professions 547 00:29:24,554 --> 00:29:27,557 like that, the burnout rate is pretty dang high. 548 00:29:28,391 --> 00:29:31,728 And what I would argue there is there's stuff on leadership in the book, 549 00:29:31,936 --> 00:29:34,689 but I think it starts with understanding that, like, 550 00:29:34,689 --> 00:29:38,026 we've gotta take care of our basic psychology, 551 00:29:38,526 --> 00:29:42,947 like needs to put us in a position where we're in a healthy place, where 552 00:29:42,947 --> 00:29:46,659 we're not feeling in that survival mode, where we're feeling like we have 553 00:29:46,659 --> 00:29:51,706 that motivation under us and that we can weather the storm. 554 00:29:52,332 --> 00:29:55,084 In the book, I have a chapter on learning how to lose, 555 00:29:55,084 --> 00:29:58,546 and I look at it from a sporting context, but it also applies to leadership, 556 00:29:59,172 --> 00:30:02,008 which is that like the 557 00:30:02,008 --> 00:30:07,847 when the, you know, when the stuff hits the fan and you're kind of like, 558 00:30:07,847 --> 00:30:11,226 okay, this didn't go well, how do we bounce back? 559 00:30:11,768 --> 00:30:15,313 Like the more resilient you are, the more you have 560 00:30:15,313 --> 00:30:20,109 that secure sense of self and identity, the more you have an understanding 561 00:30:20,109 --> 00:30:24,989 where you belong and where defining you're defining success 562 00:30:24,989 --> 00:30:28,993 in a way that doesn't put you in, as we talked about at the end, 563 00:30:28,993 --> 00:30:34,249 the win at all costs, but a successful striving that aligns with your values, 564 00:30:34,958 --> 00:30:38,211 the better you're able to navigate that situation and the better 565 00:30:38,211 --> 00:30:41,047 you're able to lead. So that's how I would kind of see this. 566 00:30:41,047 --> 00:30:43,758 This book is it gives you the building blocks 567 00:30:43,758 --> 00:30:47,053 to make sure that you feel like you're better human being, 568 00:30:47,053 --> 00:30:51,683 which then puts you in a better spot to be able to lead others 569 00:30:51,683 --> 00:30:55,395 without feeling the brunt of the stress that you're experiencing. 570 00:30:56,271 --> 00:30:57,146 And I agree with that. 571 00:30:57,146 --> 00:30:59,566 I everybody I, I recommend this book highly. 572 00:30:59,566 --> 00:31:03,486 I'm having this conversation with Steve in early April. 573 00:31:03,903 --> 00:31:06,322 You know, you could be listening to this watch this any time. 574 00:31:06,322 --> 00:31:08,324 I'm having this conversation in early April. 575 00:31:08,324 --> 00:31:10,994 And I read a ton, obviously, for the show and beyond. 576 00:31:10,994 --> 00:31:13,663 This is one of the best books I've read so far this year. 577 00:31:13,663 --> 00:31:14,831 I love this book. 578 00:31:14,831 --> 00:31:18,334 I love it, loving this conversation, and perhaps we'll figure out a way 579 00:31:18,334 --> 00:31:20,044 to have a longer conversation. Steve. 580 00:31:20,044 --> 00:31:23,590 But I have a couple of kind of questions before we wrap up. 581 00:31:23,965 --> 00:31:26,092 And then I ask everybody, really. 582 00:31:26,092 --> 00:31:29,345 And so the first one is, what do you do for fun? 583 00:31:29,429 --> 00:31:32,473 I like I know you still run or I believe that used to run, but 584 00:31:32,473 --> 00:31:33,391 what do you do for fun? 585 00:31:35,018 --> 00:31:37,687 That's the good question. 586 00:31:37,687 --> 00:31:40,690 Right now I have two daughters who are under two. 587 00:31:40,982 --> 00:31:43,026 So life is. 588 00:31:43,026 --> 00:31:45,486 If you don't think they're fun, you don't have much else. 589 00:31:45,486 --> 00:31:48,656 That's fun. But yeah, no, that's the focus. 590 00:31:48,656 --> 00:31:49,866 But you know what I'll say? 591 00:31:49,866 --> 00:31:52,452 My my one daughter is just about to be two. 592 00:31:52,452 --> 00:31:56,539 Is, she's at such a fun stage, and my wife and I are just like, 593 00:31:56,956 --> 00:32:00,627 how can we, like, integrate her into, like, activities? 594 00:32:00,627 --> 00:32:04,130 Because it's, like, mind blowing where you say this is the first time, 595 00:32:04,589 --> 00:32:10,011 you know, she's gone to the zoo, and it's so refreshing and so energizing 596 00:32:10,011 --> 00:32:12,931 because you get to almost, like, see things through a child's eyes. 597 00:32:12,931 --> 00:32:14,891 So really, for our family, like 598 00:32:14,891 --> 00:32:18,102 that is the fun where like, what new things can we do? 599 00:32:18,102 --> 00:32:20,271 Because it's all new to her. 600 00:32:20,271 --> 00:32:23,274 And, that's really exciting and fun in our life. 601 00:32:23,399 --> 00:32:24,067 I love that. 602 00:32:24,067 --> 00:32:27,028 And what Stephen, are you reading these days? 603 00:32:27,028 --> 00:32:30,031 Oh gosh, I read a ton. 604 00:32:30,031 --> 00:32:33,159 But one of the books that I, that I just finished that is actually 605 00:32:33,159 --> 00:32:34,619 new, that I love this, 606 00:32:35,787 --> 00:32:38,706 a story is a deal by will store 607 00:32:38,706 --> 00:32:42,919 and it's essentially on the the science of storytelling and how, 608 00:32:44,545 --> 00:32:47,590 how humans are essentially storytelling machines 609 00:32:48,007 --> 00:32:51,052 and how that impacts not only how we live our lives, 610 00:32:51,052 --> 00:32:54,889 but also the stories we tell and leadership positions. 611 00:32:54,889 --> 00:32:59,686 He's got a chapter on, on, you know, how that kind of creates the story of, 612 00:32:59,686 --> 00:33:01,062 do we see this 613 00:33:01,062 --> 00:33:05,233 the, the, the company see themselves as the underdog or the favorite? 614 00:33:05,233 --> 00:33:08,236 And I think that stuff is so interesting and compelling. 615 00:33:09,112 --> 00:33:11,280 We will have the link not only to that book, 616 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:12,907 but to Steve's book in the show notes. 617 00:33:12,907 --> 00:33:17,203 If you missed those because you were, listening while you were exercising 618 00:33:17,203 --> 00:33:20,206 or driving or whatever, you can get all that in the show notes. 619 00:33:20,540 --> 00:33:22,750 I hope that you'll do that. 620 00:33:22,750 --> 00:33:24,627 Steve, where can we learn more about your work? 621 00:33:24,627 --> 00:33:26,295 You what you're up to? 622 00:33:28,047 --> 00:33:28,756 The book. 623 00:33:28,756 --> 00:33:29,716 What else? 624 00:33:29,716 --> 00:33:30,967 Yeah, you can check out. 625 00:33:30,967 --> 00:33:33,344 All my stuff is at Steve magnus.com. 626 00:33:33,344 --> 00:33:36,305 I'm on all social media at Steve 627 00:33:36,305 --> 00:33:39,475 Magnus and the books available wherever you are. 628 00:33:39,475 --> 00:33:41,811 You can buy books nowadays. 629 00:33:41,811 --> 00:33:43,396 Wherever fine books are sold. 630 00:33:43,396 --> 00:33:45,314 They used to say, Steve. 631 00:33:45,314 --> 00:33:48,776 So now, before we go and before I say some final things with Steve, 632 00:33:48,943 --> 00:33:53,740 I have the question that I ask all of you every episode. 633 00:33:54,198 --> 00:33:56,951 And if you've been here before, you know what I'm about to ask. 634 00:33:56,951 --> 00:33:59,245 The question is, now what? 635 00:33:59,245 --> 00:34:02,040 What action are you going to take as a result of this? 636 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,419 What insight did you get today that is useful to you? 637 00:34:06,419 --> 00:34:09,422 Not just it's useful, but that you will use 638 00:34:09,839 --> 00:34:12,675 maybe some of the things that we talked about, about 639 00:34:12,675 --> 00:34:16,429 not flattening ourselves or flattening others too much is useful. 640 00:34:16,429 --> 00:34:20,391 Maybe the thoughts about, how we think about becoming more adaptable 641 00:34:20,558 --> 00:34:23,478 or something you're going to be able to apply, 642 00:34:23,478 --> 00:34:25,855 maybe some of the really tactical 643 00:34:25,855 --> 00:34:29,108 things that Steve shared about authenticity would be helpful to you. 644 00:34:29,108 --> 00:34:31,527 Maybe you're challenged a little bit about these. 645 00:34:31,527 --> 00:34:35,573 Am I being really authentic or just performatively authentic? 646 00:34:36,783 --> 00:34:38,451 I don't know what those things are for you, 647 00:34:38,451 --> 00:34:41,829 but what I know is that this will have been time much better spent 648 00:34:42,371 --> 00:34:44,999 if you take action on your answer to the now 649 00:34:44,999 --> 00:34:48,002 what question then, if you don't? 650 00:34:48,086 --> 00:34:50,755 Steve, thanks so much for being here. 651 00:34:50,755 --> 00:34:52,215 It was such a pleasure to have you. 652 00:34:52,215 --> 00:34:55,218 I was I've been looking forward to it. And, 653 00:34:55,551 --> 00:34:58,054 and and it didn't disappoint. 654 00:34:58,054 --> 00:34:59,931 Thanks so much, Kevin. That means so much. 655 00:34:59,931 --> 00:35:02,809 And keep doing what you're doing. It's really important. 656 00:35:02,809 --> 00:35:05,394 All right, so everybody, if this was your first time. 657 00:35:05,394 --> 00:35:05,770 Welcome. 658 00:35:05,770 --> 00:35:09,899 If this is your, Next time, make sure that you have another next time, 659 00:35:09,899 --> 00:35:13,569 make sure you're subscribed to wherever it is that you're watching us 660 00:35:13,569 --> 00:35:15,863 so that you can continue to get this information. 661 00:35:15,863 --> 00:35:17,198 Because every week we're back. 662 00:35:17,198 --> 00:35:20,034 And if so, something that we said or that I talked about 663 00:35:20,034 --> 00:35:22,161 that would be helpful to you and your organization, 664 00:35:22,161 --> 00:35:24,872 you can reach out to us info at Kevin 665 00:35:24,872 --> 00:35:28,126 I can Viacom or any place you can find me. 666 00:35:28,417 --> 00:35:32,255 You can ask me a question and let us know how we can help you. 667 00:35:32,255 --> 00:35:35,758 So again, thanks for being here and we'll be back 668 00:35:35,758 --> 00:35:39,053 next week with the episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.