If you are listening
to these words, I know you want to perform better.
Get better results.
Succeed and thrive.
You want this for your team
and your organization, but you need it for yourself too.
You are the focus today.
Let's talk about winning your inside game so you can thrive as a leader
and a human being.
Welcome to the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are
helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more
effectively and make a bigger difference for their teams, organizations,
and the world.
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Today's episode is brought to you by my latest book.
Flexible leadership navigate uncertainty and lead with confidence.
It's time to realize that styles can get in our way,
and that following our strengths might not always be the best approach
in a world that is more complex and uncertain than ever.
Leaders need a new perspective
and a new set of tools to help them achieve the great results.
Organizations and team members want and need,
and that's what flexible leadership provides you.
You can learn more and get your copy by going to remarkable
podcast.com/flexible.
And with that let me bring in my guest.
His name is Steve Magnus. There he is.
And let me introduce him.
And then we will dive in.
Steve Magnus is a world renowned expert on performance and a bestselling author
of Do Hard Things and the Science of Running.
He is also the coauthor of Peak Performance and The Passion Paradox.
His newest book, Win the Inside Game
How to Move from Surviving to Thriving
and Free Yourself Up to Perform is the focus of our conversation.
He is the co host of the podcast
farewell and the co-founder of The Growth Equation.
He has written for The Atlantic, Runner's World and Sports Illustrated.
He's been featured in The New Yorker,
The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, NPR, and others.
He has served as a performance coach
and speaker for teams and individuals in Major League Baseball,
the NFL, the NBA, the NHL, the military, and lots more.
He lives outside of Houston, Texas, and he's our guest.
Steve, welcome.
Thanks so much.
I'm. I'm glad to be here, Kevin.
All right, so I told you before we went live that I love your book.
Tell me a little bit about your story.
You have an interesting backstory,
and and we don't have time or desire to do all of that.
But tell us a little bit about what leads you to this book and why this book.
There are back.
There we go.
All right. I can see you, Kevin.
So, I mean, the long story short is my background is in running.
I was a very good, high school runner.
Ran a four minute, one second mile way back in high school, and,
you know, thought that was the ticket.
But then I never, ever improved.
And then I got into coaching.
Long story short, you can read about it in the book,
but went through a really tough coaching period
where I essentially witnessed some people, you know, doing
some unethical things and cheating at the highest level.
And all of that experience brought me to a point
where I was like, well, what does it mean to strive for something?
What does it mean to obtain success?
I've seen a path where in my own career I thought the only answer was like,
be obsessed.
Forget everything else, make it my sole identity and go for it.
And all that learning led me to is burnout.
And then I saw it.
In my early coaching career, I saw someone having kind of like a win at all costs
model of, you know, if you want to succeed, it's got to be win at all costs.
That means literally doing everything, anything to get that
accolade, achievement, medal, whatever it is.
And I've always struggled with that because that's not how I saw,
success or striving in a, in a healthy way.
So I really wanted to explore what it means to not only,
you know, perform at a high level, but to look at
how can we do it in a manner that doesn't make us miserable,
that doesn't lead us to doing nefarious things that allows us to feel good about,
you know, the things that we're doing in our our work, life.
So all of this work, this book and in that conversation
leads us to think that this book is going to be about thriving,
which of course, is in the is in the subtitle of the book.
And yet the whole opening of the book,
and I think an incredibly wonderful
part of the book is all about survival mode.
And you make the point.
And I'd like you to share some of it with us, that
an awful lot of us are in survival mode most of the time.
And and I think what will make this most interesting is for us,
for you to tell us more about what you mean by that,
because I think that all of us recognize, you know, survival
in sort of the jungle kind of mode
or in the movie kind of mode.
But you make the point that we're there
a lot more than we might realize psychologically.
So let's talk about that first. I think it's really important.
And everybody, as Steve talks about this, I'd like you to think about this both
for yourself but also with your leader hat on.
And I'm not asking you to judge others, but I think that as you listen, you'll
get some sense of how this is valuable and thinking about where others are, too.
Yeah, absolutely.
So if we look at let's start at the jungle.
Right?
So if we were in the jungle surviving
and we were under a real threat, we'd have a stress response.
And that stress response would put us in a place where we would essentially
have short term thinking on, oh my gosh, how do I survive this situation?
Like there's a lion, a tiger, we're running out of food.
Whatever it is, forget the future, forget the long term.
Like what gets me through this next moment, right?
It's that fight or flight moment.
And what we know is when we're in that spot.
Yeah, it might help us, you know, escape the lion, but it's.
Yeah, I know short term, but it's really damaging over the long haul.
Now let's zoom out and take that to our modern world.
A lot of us are in a state where we're so focused
on the short term, where it feels like, okay, everything is overwhelming.
There's too much information, there's too much overload.
I don't know what to do about anything, so I'm just going to tackle
the next problem in front of me.
And what happens is we get stuck in this kind of survival mode where
instead of thinking about the future, instead of being able to zoom out,
instead of thinking, what is the impact of this?
We just get caught up in like, how do I get through this thing?
And to make it clear for folks is when we live
in this kind of survival mode for too long, we end up doing things
like avoiding the hard thing right now that gives us lasting growth.
We do things like rationalize and justify decisions
instead of working through them and saying, where's the truth?
Where's the thing that will help me, you know, get through this?
Essentially, the case that I make is it's almost like we're, we're back in middle
school, right where we're looking around and we're like, I'm really anxious.
I don't quite know where I fit in.
I don't quite know where my direction is going.
I don't know what to do.
And because of that, we get in that survival short term mode.
And instead I make the argument that what we need to do is, like you know,
get out of that zoom out, get some perspective,
and also fulfill ourselves so that we can have
that security that allows us to do do so over the long fall.
So you hinted at a couple of those things that we do.
You call them the protective systems in the book.
Right? And you said, well, sometimes we have we want to avoid it.
Sometimes we try to defend ourselves.
Sometimes we try to narrow our focus.
We don't stay broad, we go narrow.
And then there's one other one that's actually far more
helpful than the first three.
And that's called accepting
and thinking about how do I grow from this point?
Why is it that we lean on the first three and not the fourth?
Most of the time?
The simple answer is your brain is designed
as a uncertainty reducing machine.
So when we're in those moments, what is stress?
It's uncertainty.
I don't know how this is going to, you know, work out.
I'm not sure what path to go in.
The simplest route is those first three,
which if we want to reduce uncertainty, what's the best way we avoid the thing?
We'll just just get it out right now.
Right?
Or we, you know, go into that defensive mode.
I'm going to deny the reality of the prospect that exists.
Yeah. Stick your head in the sand.
That's what it is.
The last one really sucks in the short term.
And it doesn't reduce uncertainty in the short time
because you're essentially saying it's a really stressful time.
I don't have the answer.
I'm not quite sure what the path forward is,
but I need to accept that and then figure out how do we transform
this into learning and growth over the long haul, it's more beneficial,
but in the short term it doesn't eliminate that stress.
And often we're in we're in the survival mode, our brain.
All that cares about is like, how do we reduce the stress right now?
How do we get rid of this discomfort?
I don't like how it feels like just get rid of it.
Forget the long term consequences.
And I agree.
And I mentioned to you before we went live that I see all sorts of parallels
and that some of the stuff that you're writing about
is extremely connected to my new book, Flexible Leadership.
And this is one of those places because I and I love your line, uncertain.
But, our brains are uncertainty reducing machines.
I think that's right. And yet there's a certainty all around us.
And as leaders, we have to.
We can't be the ostrich.
And too often we end up defending or justifying our natural response.
And I'm suggesting and you're suggesting that we have to move
past our natural response, that fourth thing that accept,
learn, grow, integrate idea
is where we can move past,
where we can move past our natural response,
which is to do one of those first three things
or to lean into our identity, which says, well, this is just the way I am.
Yeah, you're you're right.
You're you're spot on.
And I think this is why it's so important to leadership.
Because think about it.
We all know we have this natural response.
Think about when something went wrong
or where you messed up or when you chose.
I don't have. To think very far back. Right. Eve?
Like probably this morning. Right. Exactly.
We all experience this especially in leadership, but also in life.
And what's the natural response?
I'll give you a better example here is, is this how many of times
have you got in an argument with your significant other or spouse?
And what you're doing is you're defending the argument
instead of listening and understanding like,
oh gosh, this is a simple solution, but we can't get past that
initial response, which is, this is a threat to me.
You're attacking something that I did.
So we're going to go back and forth on this when the reality
is you're both on the same team trying to figure it out.
And if you realize that, you'd be like, okay, let's rationally
get through this, move past it and then say, what is that?
What is the learning and growing
so that we can, you know, we don't have to face the same challenge beforehand.
But that's not our natural response.
Our natural response is, no, I'm in the right.
You're in the wrong.
Even though we're staring at the person we love the most in the world.
And they are not a lion or a tiger.
And you're in the grocery store, not the jungle.
So look at the totally different thing going on here.
And yet our the way we're wired at some level.
Right.
And that's why I think this opening part is so important.
You know, it's
as, as writers, you and
I and I appreciate this, you know, move from thriving to surviving.
It sounds good and it's true. Don't misunderstand me.
And yet we throw that word surviving around a lot.
And the point that you're making and you make in the book so.
Well is that,
we treat a lot of stuff like surviving that we don't need to
if we would take a deep breath and step back and think about it,
we can get out of these protective, these first three protective systems.
You use a phrase in the book, a couple of different places,
and it it really struck me.
And so I'm curious what you mean, or say
a little bit more about this idea that we tend to flatten our world.
What do you mean?
So here's what our brain tends to do is we need to make sense of the world
that we live in, because our brain is essentially a it's predictive meaning.
As we go through the world,
we look around and our brain is like, how do I handle this next challenge?
What's this next thing coming on?
I'm about to get on on stage and have to give my pitch like, well,
do I need anxiety?
Do I need nerves? Do I need excitement?
How am I going to handle this psychologically and biologically?
And what I mean by flatten is because of our predictive
kind of brain, the easiest, simplest way to make sense of the world
is to flatten it, to turn us into like 2D caricatures.
And what I mean is you you can probably think of situations
where you do this, where you have people in your workplace
who you essentially categorize by their job
or what they do, or some simple characteristic.
You're like, you got all. Kinds of ways we do that.
Yeah, you're like, That's Jill, she's the accountant,
or that's that's Joe, you know, he's very neurotic.
Whatever it is, we just flatten people into simple labels
that help us categorize that.
And we don't just do it to other people, we also do it to ourselves.
Right?
We define ourselves by a few simple characteristics,
and that helps us kind of process in our brain.
Be like, okay, when I enter should situation with Joe,
I know that he's like very meticulous.
So this is how I'm going to treat him in that two degree like helps.
But if we live in that flattened world, what happens is pretty simple
is that we become kind of fragile,
both in our leadership style and our sense of self.
Because if we don't realize
and recognize the complexity of the humans sitting across from us,
then a that means that we are not
going to be connected with them.
Because one of the big things on connection and belonging is that you
you get this like vulnerability and trust cycle, which occurs
because someone realizes that, hey, you know, Kevin sees me
as more of an accountant, like he sees me as a human being.
And when you get that, you say, okay, I'm going to buy into whatever
Kevin's saying because, like, I know he's got my back.
And on the B the other side of this is that even with ourselves, right.
If we see ourselves and flatten ourselves as like, I am Steve
and I am a runner, and that is only what I'm defined as,
then what happens is if running or your job,
if you're the CEO or leader or manager, if that's all you have,
then the moment that that starts to go poorly,
let's say you get a poor job review,
then all of a sudden it feels like it's the end of the world because
you flatten yourself where you don't see all the many shades of gray
and other things that you do and are interested in in, in,
diversified sources of meaning that you have.
So flattening makes us fragile.
So we're talking about our identity.
Every one of the things that you say later in the book that I thought was a really
the way you said it, I thought was really interesting.
You said, we all die once.
Athletes die twice.
And you said it in the context of professional athletes, right?
That when their career ends, they have defined
they have almost assuredly defined themselves. As,
as a player of that sport.
Right.
And when that is no longer there, then what happens?
And, you know, we've all heard,
whether you're a sports fan or not, we've heard some of the, the,
the, the, the sad stories about how that ends.
We also have examples where it's, there's there's good stories,
but that's because they were able to manage and think about this identity
piece a little bit more.
And everything you're saying about flattening
ourselves and, and the way we flatten others is so important.
And as it relates
to how we flatten ourselves, we we call ourselves we're an accountant.
We're this we're a leader. We're whatever.
And we don't think about,
maybe the best chapter title
I will see all year, which is accept the messiness of who you are.
So I want us to talk about accepting the messiness,
because as humans, we are,
without question, messy, which means we can't define ourselves by one
word, one phrase, one personality style, one leadership style, whatever.
One generation, however you want to put that.
So why is it so important if we want to move towards thriving,
that we accept our messiness, and then perhaps even how, Steve,
can we help others accept theirs?
Yeah, it's important because, as I said,
when we flatten ourselves, we make us ourselves fragile.
When we accept the messiness, we become resilient.
And it's it's very simple.
The reason is this is because
if you
accept the complexity of the person that you are in the interest
you have, the strengths you have, and even the weaknesses or the flaws
or the drawbacks or whatever it is, the things you struggle with.
If you accept that, then your brain goes,
okay, like I get it, this is part of who I am.
Hey, that allows me to work on the thing.
If I say, hey, this is a weakness, I want to get better at this.
If I have accepted, I can work on it.
And B is if for whatever reason, if that shows up,
you're like, okay, yes, this is part of me
and I can navigate it if you don't.
If you go with that, we'll call that Instagram version of yourself
where you show everybody the highlights.
You paint the best picture.
You say, I'm always happy, fit, fun and at my best,
well, what happens is reality is going to smack you in the face at some point.
Yeah, and if you fed your brain
the information that I'm the best, I always figure it out.
I'm always, you know, A, B and C, then when reality smacks you in the face,
your brain is going to go like, hey, wait a minute.
Like this isn't this isn't what we thought was coming.
This isn't who we thought we were.
And because of that,
your brain is going to default to that avoidance and protect mode.
You know, because it's saying like, this isn't what we signed up for.
The example I like to give in sports, which I think really highlights
this is is this is if I sign up for a marathon.
And even as a runner I say, hey, this is going to be really freaking tough
because there's no balance about it.
It's always tough, right?
No matter how much you train, it's always tough.
And you say, this is the reality.
This is what I bring to the table, right?
This is approximately maybe what I think I can accomplish.
If you do that, then even when it gets tough, your brain is going to go like,
yeah, I expected it get to tough, but we're prepared for it.
If instead I went with the Instagram version and said,
Steve, you're a lifelong runner, this is no problem.
Like you've been in situations like this before all the time.
Like you're going to handle this with a breeze the minute you get to whatever.
Mile 1819, 20 in reality, smacks you in your face.
Your brain is going to go, I didn't sign up for this.
This is not what you told me that you know was coming.
And I'm going to try and convince you to quit,
which is that protect mode, because, like, we didn't sign up for it.
It's the same with our identities, right?
If we flatten it instead of accept the messiness,
we set ourselves up for that fragility and that avoidance and that protection.
And from a leadership perspective, we set ourselves up to say, well,
listen, you just have to accept this is how this is how I lead.
So we go in to defend you.
The other thing, you know, while we go into defending, justifying
and all that stuff, well,
and then we also everybody can start blaming others for the
things that happen as opposed to saying, well, what part of this is ours?
So there's a whole accountability piece here.
So I do want to talk about one of
the words that gets used in leadership circles a lot.
And it relates to all this stuff.
We're talking about our identity.
We're talking about messiness.
We're talking about 2D to 3D, like all that stuff.
But where where does authenticity fit in here then?
Like,
what does it
mean to be authentic given what we've just described?
Because, you know, people want to see more of us
than the Instagram image or short or whatever you want to call it.
So what's your take?
Or what would your research say to us
about advice about being more authentic?
So here's what I think matters
is that when we talk about authenticity, there's almost like
a performative variety, meaning
I've heard I should be authentic.
So I'm going to, you know, share a story or two, hear and make people think
that, like, I'm being vulnerable and open and all of that good stuff.
And then there's the real variety, which I think is more important,
in which authenticity, authenticity is essentially like
being who you are in the moment and letting people see that
not just through your words, but also your actions.
So if you are the person who, you know,
maybe has a little bit of a more hard edge and in leadership like,
that's okay to degree, you've just got to like be authentic
in that, that, that who you are and not like try and sugarcoat it
and not try and, you know, fake it through.
Do this.
And I think that's the key difference there is that authenticity is good
as long it is it is not the performative variety.
And the last thing I'll say is, if you look at the psychology research,
is that
human beings are experts at reading signals.
And what I mean by that is we're experts at not only listening
to what you're saying, but picking up, like, your actions,
your body language, and seeing if those two match.
And I think when we comes to authenticity, this is why it's really important.
Because if I'm saying one thing, but my body language,
my actions behind it, all of that is pointing in the other direction.
Our brain will pick it up and be like, there's something off here.
I'm not going to quite by what this person is saying.
And I think that's that right there is the key to authenticity is like,
you've got to have everything aligned so that that person on the receiving end
getting the signal says like, okay, he's being real.
Like, I need to listen to this, to accept it.
And so if, for example,
I love that if I am that leader, I'll just use your example with that.
More of a hard edge that doesn't mean we stay there.
And just I mean, we lean into that.
It means that it's and if that comes out, it's okay.
But if in that moment, if the context of that situation
that isn't serving us, then we've got to be able to shift
the may even need to apologize, or whatever.
But that authenticity isn't a an excuse
to just do whatever the heck we think is who we are and not try to get better.
Yeah.
It's that it's that spot on.
It's exactly what you talking about.
It's that flexible and adaptable leadership.
It's authenticity is seeing the situation for what it is, right.
If you have that hard edge and you explode on someone, it's not being like,
that's just who I am.
I explode on people. It's realizing and seeing
in this situation.
This had a negative effect on A, B and C, and I realized and could see that
this is my this is on me for going too far in that direction.
It can be my natural response, but it doesn't have to be my
it doesn't have to be my auto response.
Yes, that's a huge difference.
So, I,
could spend the entire entire conversation
times three just on this identity and survival stuff.
But I want us to at least move to what you mean by thriving.
And so I want to ask a couple more questions before we finish.
So when you say thriving,
what does that mean?
Because we've mostly been talking about surviving so far.
Like what does it mean?
But how would you define thriving for us?
Yeah, I think what it is.
And if you look at the psychology research, it's defined in so many different ways.
But to me
it looks that
you feel like you have autonomy,
meaning like you have some say in the direction that you're headed.
You feel like you're contributing.
There's some significance behind the work that you're doing.
And we're talking about thriving in the workplace.
We could talk about sports, but the same thing there's significance.
You're a contributor. It's meaningful.
You feel like you belong.
Meaning there is connection to those around you and you feel like
you're essentially at home, right?
You have a spot.
And I think when we look at those kind of three things and we could again
include things like competency, meaning like you feel like you're
making progress towards something meaningful.
There's all sorts of variations,
but to me that is it is like we want to feel significant.
We want to feel directed.
We want to feel belonging
and if we have those things, then chances are in the research backs
this up is we're going to stoke our intrinsic motivation,
meaning we're not going to just be motivated by
the accolades, achievements, the money, whatever it is.
But for the joy of the pursuit, for the challenge of the thing,
the task we're taking on and what we know over the long haul
is that intrinsic motivation is is a better fuel,
and we feel better doing it even when we're going
through difficult times when we have that is the back, but.
Far, far more powerful.
So, you know that,
this is the show is called the Remarkable Leadership Podcast,
and we've hinted at that a little bit.
Is there anything else, though, that you would say?
Because the book isn't everybody, we're talking with Steve
Magnus, the author of Win the Inside Game.
And, the book is specifically a, quote, leadership book, right?
For us to be highly effective leaders, the better, the better
we become as a human, the better we have the chance to become as a leader,
which is one of the reasons why I have you here.
But is there a is there any specific
advice or
counsel that you would give us with our leadership?
Hats on, based on the work in this book?
Oh, that's a great question.
And I think you you nailed the question, which is
I think it starts with often
leaders almost neglecting ignore themselves
because what happens is you're in the leadership position.
You're saying, okay, I've got all these people I'm responsible
for, I want to help them, which is noble, right?
And you see the same thing in teaching
because what our teachers, their leaders of students.
Right.
And neglecting it and because of that, if you look at the data and the research
both and leadership positions, teaching or other other professions
like that, the burnout rate is pretty dang high.
And what I would argue there is there's stuff on leadership in the book,
but I think it starts with understanding that, like,
we've gotta take care of our basic psychology,
like needs to put us in a position where we're in a healthy place, where
we're not feeling in that survival mode, where we're feeling like we have
that motivation under us and that we can weather the storm.
In the book, I have a chapter on learning how to lose,
and I look at it from a sporting context, but it also applies to leadership,
which is that like the
when the, you know, when the stuff hits the fan and you're kind of like,
okay, this didn't go well, how do we bounce back?
Like the more resilient you are, the more you have
that secure sense of self and identity, the more you have an understanding
where you belong and where defining you're defining success
in a way that doesn't put you in, as we talked about at the end,
the win at all costs, but a successful striving that aligns with your values,
the better you're able to navigate that situation and the better
you're able to lead. So that's how I would kind of see this.
This book is it gives you the building blocks
to make sure that you feel like you're better human being,
which then puts you in a better spot to be able to lead others
without feeling the brunt of the stress that you're experiencing.
And I agree with that.
I everybody I, I recommend this book highly.
I'm having this conversation with Steve in early April.
You know, you could be listening to this watch this any time.
I'm having this conversation in early April.
And I read a ton, obviously, for the show and beyond.
This is one of the best books I've read so far this year.
I love this book.
I love it, loving this conversation, and perhaps we'll figure out a way
to have a longer conversation. Steve.
But I have a couple of kind of questions before we wrap up.
And then I ask everybody, really.
And so the first one is, what do you do for fun?
I like I know you still run or I believe that used to run, but
what do you do for fun?
That's the good question.
Right now I have two daughters who are under two.
So life is.
If you don't think they're fun, you don't have much else.
That's fun. But yeah, no, that's the focus.
But you know what I'll say?
My my one daughter is just about to be two.
Is, she's at such a fun stage, and my wife and I are just like,
how can we, like, integrate her into, like, activities?
Because it's, like, mind blowing where you say this is the first time,
you know, she's gone to the zoo, and it's so refreshing and so energizing
because you get to almost, like, see things through a child's eyes.
So really, for our family, like
that is the fun where like, what new things can we do?
Because it's all new to her.
And, that's really exciting and fun in our life.
I love that.
And what Stephen, are you reading these days?
Oh gosh, I read a ton.
But one of the books that I, that I just finished that is actually
new, that I love this,
a story is a deal by will store
and it's essentially on the the science of storytelling and how,
how humans are essentially storytelling machines
and how that impacts not only how we live our lives,
but also the stories we tell and leadership positions.
He's got a chapter on, on, you know, how that kind of creates the story of,
do we see this
the, the, the company see themselves as the underdog or the favorite?
And I think that stuff is so interesting and compelling.
We will have the link not only to that book,
but to Steve's book in the show notes.
If you missed those because you were, listening while you were exercising
or driving or whatever, you can get all that in the show notes.
I hope that you'll do that.
Steve, where can we learn more about your work?
You what you're up to?
The book.
What else?
Yeah, you can check out.
All my stuff is at Steve magnus.com.
I'm on all social media at Steve
Magnus and the books available wherever you are.
You can buy books nowadays.
Wherever fine books are sold.
They used to say, Steve.
So now, before we go and before I say some final things with Steve,
I have the question that I ask all of you every episode.
And if you've been here before, you know what I'm about to ask.
The question is, now what?
What action are you going to take as a result of this?
What insight did you get today that is useful to you?
Not just it's useful, but that you will use
maybe some of the things that we talked about, about
not flattening ourselves or flattening others too much is useful.
Maybe the thoughts about, how we think about becoming more adaptable
or something you're going to be able to apply,
maybe some of the really tactical
things that Steve shared about authenticity would be helpful to you.
Maybe you're challenged a little bit about these.
Am I being really authentic or just performatively authentic?
I don't know what those things are for you,
but what I know is that this will have been time much better spent
if you take action on your answer to the now
what question then, if you don't?
Steve, thanks so much for being here.
It was such a pleasure to have you.
I was I've been looking forward to it. And,
and and it didn't disappoint.
Thanks so much, Kevin. That means so much.
And keep doing what you're doing. It's really important.
All right, so everybody, if this was your first time.
Welcome.
If this is your, Next time, make sure that you have another next time,
make sure you're subscribed to wherever it is that you're watching us
so that you can continue to get this information.
Because every week we're back.
And if so, something that we said or that I talked about
that would be helpful to you and your organization,
you can reach out to us info at Kevin
I can Viacom or any place you can find me.
You can ask me a question and let us know how we can help you.
So again, thanks for being here and we'll be back
next week with the episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.