1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:05,380 You're listening to A VerySpatial Podcast, episode 754, February 5th, 2025. 2 00:00:19,780 --> 00:00:20,130 Hello. 3 00:00:20,130 --> 00:00:21,310 Welcome to A VerySpatial Podcast. 4 00:00:21,330 --> 00:00:21,830 I'm Jesse. 5 00:00:22,165 --> 00:00:22,725 I'm Sue. 6 00:00:23,384 --> 00:00:23,994 I'm Barb. 7 00:00:24,134 --> 00:00:25,035 And this is Frank. 8 00:00:25,235 --> 00:00:29,574 Yeah, so, I, I don't know if this is news or this is housekeeping, it's, 9 00:00:30,075 --> 00:00:34,785 it, it, it is the current state of the world, so I'll just say that if 10 00:00:34,785 --> 00:00:38,834 you are a person who uses U. S. data, especially from federal data sources 11 00:00:39,264 --> 00:00:43,504 and if you do need those data sources, then you should go and download them, 12 00:00:43,504 --> 00:00:45,334 they're probably gone, but you can try. 13 00:00:45,579 --> 00:00:49,559 To see if they're still there many are going offline if it's anything 14 00:00:49,559 --> 00:00:55,859 to do with environmental justice or social justice or DEI or climate change 15 00:00:55,869 --> 00:00:58,699 or we can keep going down the list. 16 00:00:58,819 --> 00:01:00,039 Yeah, they're, they're offline. 17 00:01:00,049 --> 00:01:02,899 You might be able to find other sources. 18 00:01:02,919 --> 00:01:06,179 So a lot of the data is being collected in cooperation with. 19 00:01:06,794 --> 00:01:08,554 Universities or other organizations. 20 00:01:08,554 --> 00:01:12,544 So you may be able to find it on other sites and a lot of historic data. 21 00:01:12,544 --> 00:01:18,694 Of course, you can go to places like ArcGIS online or state repositories 22 00:01:18,694 --> 00:01:22,924 where they made duplications, duplicate copies of it, it's. 23 00:01:23,309 --> 00:01:23,649 Yeah. 24 00:01:24,529 --> 00:01:24,799 Yeah. 25 00:01:24,799 --> 00:01:29,549 Some, I mean, just so many very dedicated, brave, and, and really 26 00:01:29,549 --> 00:01:34,319 trying hard workers in, in, within the federal government, within partnering 27 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:38,259 agencies, scholars and all that are trying to, you know, do what they can. 28 00:01:38,699 --> 00:01:44,009 I'll say that this is one of the times that it kind of benefits us that private 29 00:01:44,209 --> 00:01:49,149 organizations and nonprofits are just pull, have been pulling data from official 30 00:01:49,149 --> 00:01:54,264 sources and then doing sort of value added because that, In itself ends up 31 00:01:54,264 --> 00:01:57,104 being a record of the information I saw. 32 00:01:57,114 --> 00:02:01,344 I didn't confirm it, but I saw the tiger lines, for example, were down from census 33 00:02:01,414 --> 00:02:05,574 that obviously is in pretty much all the Esri data sets that you can connect to. 34 00:02:05,984 --> 00:02:07,844 It's also in open street map. 35 00:02:07,854 --> 00:02:12,454 So, you know, it's good that these things are being replicated in other places. 36 00:02:12,454 --> 00:02:15,624 So it is a nice benefit of this data being out there. 37 00:02:15,624 --> 00:02:20,354 And so free for so long that when these type of disruptions for lack of 38 00:02:20,354 --> 00:02:23,014 a better word occur, there are other. 39 00:02:23,309 --> 00:02:27,554 Places that you can get the information in what we Honest to 40 00:02:27,554 --> 00:02:28,954 goodness hope is the short term 41 00:02:29,714 --> 00:02:31,764 and this is something I think the geospatial community 42 00:02:31,764 --> 00:02:33,104 we've been talking about. 43 00:02:33,464 --> 00:02:38,234 Not this situation, but when other things have happened, where data has 44 00:02:38,234 --> 00:02:43,174 not been as readily available, that was openly available to have other 45 00:02:43,174 --> 00:02:45,844 repositories to download and back up. 46 00:02:46,234 --> 00:02:50,464 So it is almost a trial by fire of, you know, some of 47 00:02:50,474 --> 00:02:53,554 the things that the geospatial community has been talking about. 48 00:02:54,009 --> 00:02:54,609 Worldwide. 49 00:02:54,959 --> 00:02:58,519 So the National Honor Society for Geospatial Technology 50 00:02:58,519 --> 00:03:00,049 has their applications open. 51 00:03:00,449 --> 00:03:07,269 This is Gamma Sigma Theta, and it is open to undergraduates, graduates, 52 00:03:07,279 --> 00:03:11,369 faculty and alumni and then students in the Honor Society receive benefits 53 00:03:11,369 --> 00:03:16,339 from all the partners with the National Honor Society, and this includes the 54 00:03:16,349 --> 00:03:20,989 Geospatial Professionals Network, formerly ERISA AS, and PRS the JS 55 00:03:20,989 --> 00:03:23,189 Certification Institute and Drone Deploy. 56 00:03:24,099 --> 00:03:27,069 I really hope they get their own website at some point in time because 57 00:03:27,069 --> 00:03:31,719 the story map is usable, but there is, it's, it's got some issues in terms 58 00:03:31,719 --> 00:03:33,429 of being, being comfortable with it. 59 00:03:33,719 --> 00:03:34,749 It is, it's the. 60 00:03:35,199 --> 00:03:35,939 Fourth semester. 61 00:03:35,949 --> 00:03:36,279 There we go. 62 00:03:36,289 --> 00:03:37,009 Fourth semester. 63 00:03:37,069 --> 00:03:40,969 The original semester was, of course, then fall of 2023. 64 00:03:40,989 --> 00:03:46,289 That was the first semester that GST, Gamma Sigma Theta was out and available. 65 00:03:46,539 --> 00:03:52,359 I'm looking on the website and seeing if it's still in the pre introductory 66 00:03:52,359 --> 00:03:56,659 period, and I don't see anything explicit about fees this semester. 67 00:03:56,659 --> 00:04:01,939 So it seems then that we are still in that introductory period where they're 68 00:04:01,939 --> 00:04:05,344 not assessing any fees for membership. 69 00:04:05,344 --> 00:04:09,014 So you apply as long as you meet the qualifications, 70 00:04:09,014 --> 00:04:11,674 which is, I believe it's a 3. 71 00:04:11,675 --> 00:04:16,344 3 GPA and a certain percentage of your class, if you're a student of 72 00:04:16,724 --> 00:04:18,174 undergraduate to graduate status. 73 00:04:18,564 --> 00:04:20,129 And, and You're in. 74 00:04:20,599 --> 00:04:22,269 And so take advantage of it while it's free. 75 00:04:22,639 --> 00:04:24,779 So do you have to apply to a chapter? 76 00:04:24,779 --> 00:04:27,849 So does your university have to have a chapter for you to be a member? 77 00:04:27,969 --> 00:04:32,769 There are not chapters, but you cannot apply as an individual. 78 00:04:32,769 --> 00:04:37,909 You need to talk to a faculty member at your university because the, a faculty 79 00:04:37,909 --> 00:04:42,749 representative of the students has submits everybody's all at one time. 80 00:04:43,809 --> 00:04:44,029 Yeah. 81 00:04:44,039 --> 00:04:45,779 If you're interested in gamma, sigma, theta, same thing. 82 00:04:45,789 --> 00:04:50,049 If you're also interested in geography in general, gamma, theta, epsilon is. 83 00:04:50,454 --> 00:04:56,914 The International Honor Society for Geography that one does have a fee but the 84 00:04:56,914 --> 00:05:02,384 same thing you talk to your local chapter there because you might have a president 85 00:05:02,424 --> 00:05:06,524 or something like that for a local chapter or your faculty representative, 86 00:05:06,644 --> 00:05:09,314 mentor, whatever, for GTU as well. 87 00:05:09,314 --> 00:05:12,614 So yeah, either way, if you're a student, graduate, undergraduate, talk 88 00:05:12,614 --> 00:05:16,564 to your, your faculty about becoming a member of one of these organizations. 89 00:05:17,459 --> 00:05:20,289 And you have till April 13th to get the stuff in, I think, isn't that right? 90 00:05:20,289 --> 00:05:23,549 Yeah, the faculty mentor has until April to submit it. 91 00:05:25,009 --> 00:05:27,059 So you should get it to them at least a few days early. 92 00:05:27,379 --> 00:05:31,289 Yeah, which means that, that you need to get it in Before then. 93 00:05:31,809 --> 00:05:34,229 You can't turn it in the night before they have to turn it in. 94 00:05:34,239 --> 00:05:34,830 Let's just 95 00:05:34,909 --> 00:05:38,029 Yes, because we do have to check to make sure that you are eligible. 96 00:05:38,579 --> 00:05:41,889 Before we can submit it on to, and it is a hard deadline. 97 00:05:41,889 --> 00:05:46,529 It's not like April 13th itch is April 13th at 7 p. m. Eastern. 98 00:05:46,559 --> 00:05:49,469 And if it's not in by then, that's, that's it. 99 00:05:49,469 --> 00:05:51,199 Nobody else is getting in for that semester. 100 00:05:51,559 --> 00:05:54,549 And they, and they do recommend like a process, like the faculty could 101 00:05:54,559 --> 00:05:56,039 interview you or something like that. 102 00:05:56,039 --> 00:05:57,229 So it's listed. 103 00:05:57,769 --> 00:06:00,519 So the faculty evaluation piece is substantial. 104 00:06:00,519 --> 00:06:01,479 It takes some time. 105 00:06:01,479 --> 00:06:03,639 So do a, do a lot of that. 106 00:06:03,829 --> 00:06:05,179 I'd be thinking March. 107 00:06:05,429 --> 00:06:07,649 That's what I'm saying to get it to the faculty. 108 00:06:08,259 --> 00:06:13,739 I, I, I'm, I'm not as many hoops and it's a small department anyway. 109 00:06:13,779 --> 00:06:16,879 So in terms of the number of people who are coming to, to ask to be in it. 110 00:06:17,229 --> 00:06:19,669 I had my first one today who just kind of stopped by and said, Hey, 111 00:06:19,669 --> 00:06:20,769 are we doing GTU this semester? 112 00:06:20,769 --> 00:06:24,039 I'm like, yes, I'll put you on the list and see if you are eligible. 113 00:06:24,359 --> 00:06:25,379 But yeah, it's. 114 00:06:26,194 --> 00:06:29,184 I'd say, you know, by the beginning of April, you're probably safe. 115 00:06:30,054 --> 00:06:32,064 But yes, if you want to be really, really safe, especially 116 00:06:32,064 --> 00:06:33,734 big departments, March is good. 117 00:06:33,824 --> 00:06:35,364 Yeah, the key is the three classes. 118 00:06:35,374 --> 00:06:37,964 So you do have to have three geospatial technology classes. 119 00:06:37,964 --> 00:06:42,734 And so if you, we kind of have, you know, for some students, as long as 120 00:06:42,734 --> 00:06:45,304 they're taking classes that include geospatial technologies, we don't 121 00:06:45,334 --> 00:06:50,994 necessarily require it to be a geospatial technology explicit heavy class. 122 00:06:51,499 --> 00:06:53,899 as long as it has a good bit of, of it in there. 123 00:06:54,099 --> 00:06:57,819 So for instance, right now my weather and climate class, you know, we 124 00:06:57,819 --> 00:07:00,769 have a good five, six exercises that are going to be an arc or something 125 00:07:00,769 --> 00:07:04,469 else like that, that are using geospatial technologies of some sort. 126 00:07:04,829 --> 00:07:07,559 And so I would include that as an example. 127 00:07:07,869 --> 00:07:13,119 Okay, either way, moving on to the last piece of news. 128 00:07:13,529 --> 00:07:18,959 Penn State has been using QR codes to follow honeybees. 129 00:07:19,449 --> 00:07:23,699 To basically determine their, their pathways and where they go. 130 00:07:24,029 --> 00:07:26,570 It's You know, pretty neat way to do this. 131 00:07:26,580 --> 00:07:31,650 They had QR codes on honeybees that then had sensors that detected where 132 00:07:31,650 --> 00:07:36,800 they went between some Pennsylvania, New York and six five spots in order to get 133 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,770 a better understanding of how they're collecting pollen and nectar and what 134 00:07:40,770 --> 00:07:42,060 they're doing since they're endangered. 135 00:07:42,515 --> 00:07:42,865 I don't know. 136 00:07:42,865 --> 00:07:44,315 It was like six years ago or something. 137 00:07:44,335 --> 00:07:47,685 We had a faculty who was putting together an apiary and, and she wanted 138 00:07:47,685 --> 00:07:51,335 us to use drones to follow the bees. 139 00:07:52,505 --> 00:07:53,695 That would be challenging. 140 00:07:54,385 --> 00:07:54,635 That's, 141 00:07:54,755 --> 00:07:55,985 that's an understatement. 142 00:07:56,255 --> 00:08:00,465 And of course, it would have an impact on the bee's flight itself, 143 00:08:00,465 --> 00:08:01,595 depending on how close you were. 144 00:08:02,025 --> 00:08:03,685 So yeah, there's, there's a lot to be said. 145 00:08:03,685 --> 00:08:07,505 So this is a much more elegant solution than the person who came and talked to me. 146 00:08:07,505 --> 00:08:11,065 I think a very time intensive, but very you know, more elegant 147 00:08:11,065 --> 00:08:14,865 solution they were able to identify individual bees in each individual. 148 00:08:15,335 --> 00:08:18,395 I wonder how many people got stung when they would see the bees and look over, 149 00:08:18,405 --> 00:08:21,235 like random people, what is on that bee? 150 00:08:21,625 --> 00:08:22,385 What is that? 151 00:08:24,305 --> 00:08:24,568 I'm just saying. 152 00:08:24,568 --> 00:08:26,815 It just reminded me of Mai Po Kwan, but with honeybees. 153 00:08:29,220 --> 00:08:30,090 And that's it for the news. 154 00:08:31,300 --> 00:08:36,070 So this week I wanted to chat a little bit about something that I returned 155 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:40,280 to on occasion and not too long ago I did and that is I think for all of us 156 00:08:40,570 --> 00:08:44,220 and by the way, not just geographers or GIS people or, or any of that, but 157 00:08:44,220 --> 00:08:50,210 anybody, right, return back to some of the sort of to us books, scholarly works, 158 00:08:50,210 --> 00:08:55,940 whatever That really resonated with us and our stuff that that kind of come 159 00:08:55,940 --> 00:08:59,375 back to right and then There's tons of stuff that maybe we've read or things we 160 00:08:59,375 --> 00:09:03,315 thought, but there's always a few that, you know, really, really spoke to us. 161 00:09:03,315 --> 00:09:07,795 And so I thought it'd be great to kind of just talk about some of those 162 00:09:07,795 --> 00:09:12,725 and, and just see, and, and for me to kind of pick it off, the one that I 163 00:09:12,725 --> 00:09:18,165 just came back to yet again was Jay Appleton's, his experience of landscape. 164 00:09:18,215 --> 00:09:22,955 So, so he wrote tons of stuff, but so that was the one and, and first had to read it. 165 00:09:23,845 --> 00:09:26,795 In graduate school and studying cultural landscape and stuff. 166 00:09:27,155 --> 00:09:28,245 But kept coming back to it. 167 00:09:28,265 --> 00:09:33,085 And the seminal part of that his work in, and he expounded it in others, was 168 00:09:33,085 --> 00:09:35,805 the idea of prospect refuge theory. 169 00:09:36,515 --> 00:09:40,265 And the reason why it resonates with me, among all, a lot of other great things 170 00:09:40,265 --> 00:09:47,510 I've read, is that I'd never really thought of how I I myself or maybe others 171 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:52,440 viewed landscape right and inhabiting it and so prospect refuge unless somebody 172 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,370 else wants to kick in kind of with the definition is, is essentially the idea 173 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:05,935 that people have sort of innate urges, innate reactions to environment and Two 174 00:10:05,935 --> 00:10:09,475 of those reactions are how you see kind of yourself out in the world, and the idea of 175 00:10:09,475 --> 00:10:16,285 prospect is that you have a need or feel a need to be able to see around you, right, 176 00:10:16,295 --> 00:10:21,495 to potentially see threats, right, to see and make sense of the world, and the 177 00:10:21,495 --> 00:10:25,625 converse of that is, is refuge, the idea that, that maybe you're in a safe space, 178 00:10:25,625 --> 00:10:30,240 a closed in space where And not quite hiding, but maybe threats can't see you. 179 00:10:30,470 --> 00:10:33,530 And so I'm kind of simplifying it down and, and these things have been 180 00:10:33,530 --> 00:10:35,340 expounded on and, and kind of stuff. 181 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:37,680 But, but so anyway, so prospect versus refuge. 182 00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:41,830 And so if you just think of prospect as I have a wide view, and refuge is 183 00:10:41,870 --> 00:10:44,230 more, you know, closed in, maybe safe. 184 00:10:44,650 --> 00:10:49,990 And, and it's interesting because you can look at so many things and, yes, we don't, 185 00:10:50,020 --> 00:10:52,400 you know, you don't want to necessarily just reduce it down to that, but it's a, 186 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,250 it's a starting off point to think, well, why do, why do I react to things this way? 187 00:10:56,670 --> 00:11:00,910 And you can think for it anywhere from looking at artworks to, you 188 00:11:00,910 --> 00:11:04,330 know, you can see it in how people whereas I started working with it, 189 00:11:04,330 --> 00:11:07,435 like how people frame shots in movies. 190 00:11:07,555 --> 00:11:10,285 I was actually looking at it in a video game worlds class, so 191 00:11:10,285 --> 00:11:11,535 looking at video game landscapes. 192 00:11:11,835 --> 00:11:15,875 But anyway, I just got to thinking that this, this book has been around for a long 193 00:11:15,875 --> 00:11:18,045 time, but I just keep coming back to it. 194 00:11:18,385 --> 00:11:19,935 In fact, I think Justin and I were talking about this. 195 00:11:19,935 --> 00:11:24,225 I think it was published in 1975, which is 50 years ago this year. 196 00:11:24,455 --> 00:11:26,835 I, I don't actually know that book, of that theory. 197 00:11:26,935 --> 00:11:28,025 It's kind of interesting. 198 00:11:28,095 --> 00:11:31,775 To me, one of the more interesting dimensions about this conversation 199 00:11:31,795 --> 00:11:37,645 is I suspect the overlap between the four of us will be not large. 200 00:11:37,865 --> 00:11:41,985 And to that, to the one that definitely resonates the most with 201 00:11:41,985 --> 00:11:43,995 me is Fu Tuan's space and place. 202 00:11:44,415 --> 00:11:49,685 Like that, Was that I go back to all the time is thinking about that. 203 00:11:49,695 --> 00:11:56,155 That was a very profound change for me because I spent most of my time 204 00:11:56,675 --> 00:12:00,745 in my professional career in G. I. S. dealing with space in some form or 205 00:12:00,745 --> 00:12:07,545 fashion, and I was in political science originally and in political science. 206 00:12:07,545 --> 00:12:08,975 It's much more. 207 00:12:10,385 --> 00:12:15,735 It fashions itself a bit more as a more objective view on social phenomena. 208 00:12:16,255 --> 00:12:19,875 That's an overbroad generalization, but it tends to think in a 209 00:12:19,945 --> 00:12:20,935 little more in those terms. 210 00:12:21,355 --> 00:12:26,775 So space in place was, was profound for me because it said, you know, we have 211 00:12:26,775 --> 00:12:31,065 all that stuff, this objective things, but we also have all the subjective 212 00:12:31,065 --> 00:12:37,325 things and, and they're very important, arguably more important more defining 213 00:12:37,375 --> 00:12:39,595 for what we understand as humanity. 214 00:12:39,605 --> 00:12:42,615 And that was like turning. 215 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,920 The turning the cube around from a completely different angle 216 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:47,280 that I was like, Oh, good Lord. 217 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:49,830 I didn't think if you could look at it from that direction. 218 00:12:50,270 --> 00:12:55,930 So for me, that that's one that I constantly feel myself referencing to 219 00:12:55,930 --> 00:12:58,770 not necessarily, you know, pulling the book out and reading it and saying, for 220 00:12:58,770 --> 00:13:02,290 twine said this, for twine said that, but the, the concepts and the ideas 221 00:13:02,290 --> 00:13:07,170 within that is one that I pull back to I was, I was, she was talking, I 222 00:13:07,170 --> 00:13:09,100 was actually looking at our bookcase, trying to find, make sure I had the 223 00:13:09,100 --> 00:13:14,350 right name, but Tim Creswell did space, I'm sorry, did place and introduction. 224 00:13:14,780 --> 00:13:17,320 And it's a lesser version of that for me. 225 00:13:17,350 --> 00:13:20,870 I'm not saying it's a lesser book by any church imagination. 226 00:13:20,870 --> 00:13:22,660 It's a different way of thinking about place as well, 227 00:13:22,670 --> 00:13:25,040 but it is what I read second. 228 00:13:25,060 --> 00:13:29,140 So it wasn't quite as profound, but it still does those, those two books 229 00:13:29,140 --> 00:13:33,730 embody the notion of place and how that was a profound change for me. 230 00:13:34,030 --> 00:13:40,370 And it really does enter as being almost my, origin point for geography. 231 00:13:40,370 --> 00:13:45,340 I think about it in those terms very strongly when I think about geography. 232 00:13:45,735 --> 00:13:49,405 I feel a little bit like we're in a oral exam because I'm like, do I have the name? 233 00:13:49,405 --> 00:13:49,695 Right? 234 00:13:50,015 --> 00:13:53,565 I find myself in everyday life referring Eleanor Ostrom and the 235 00:13:53,565 --> 00:13:58,815 modifiable aerial unit problem, the mop because it just surprisingly appears 236 00:13:58,825 --> 00:14:00,405 just out of nowhere all the time. 237 00:14:00,785 --> 00:14:06,175 And, and people don't think about what it is, or until you explain what it is, they 238 00:14:06,175 --> 00:14:08,665 don't realize, you know, what's occurring. 239 00:14:09,005 --> 00:14:12,995 And because it's hard for us to recognize that, in the world and 240 00:14:13,255 --> 00:14:17,735 we understand it what cognitively once we hear what the term is. 241 00:14:17,745 --> 00:14:21,065 So there's, that's one of the works that I think about. 242 00:14:21,065 --> 00:14:23,505 I'm like, oh, surprisingly, it's very useful to bring out. 243 00:14:23,785 --> 00:14:27,945 And so whenever we look at these, I counter Frank in his statement that 244 00:14:27,955 --> 00:14:31,145 he thought they would, there would be very little overlap because in 245 00:14:31,145 --> 00:14:33,685 reality, we're looking at things that have a significant overlap. 246 00:14:33,685 --> 00:14:36,365 So, so far we have two from the seventies. 247 00:14:36,965 --> 00:14:43,055 Two, very much driven by experience three, explicitly talking about landscape. 248 00:14:43,325 --> 00:14:45,465 Wait, what year was the Mott book? 249 00:14:45,485 --> 00:14:46,305 Was that early 80s? 250 00:14:46,355 --> 00:14:46,985 I forget. 251 00:14:47,135 --> 00:14:52,125 And so we've got experience, we've got landscape mine, because of my 252 00:14:52,125 --> 00:14:55,005 dissertation, I'm not going to say this is the, the, the end all be all, 253 00:14:55,005 --> 00:14:58,705 but back again, 50 years ago, we have. 254 00:14:59,230 --> 00:15:06,520 This edition of Tadahiko Higuchi with the original Japanese works that were 255 00:15:06,550 --> 00:15:12,110 eventually translated in the eighties to visual spatial structure of landscape. 256 00:15:12,710 --> 00:15:17,280 So you know, we have this, this binding of landscape across all the books. 257 00:15:17,310 --> 00:15:21,140 And this one again, three of them in the seventies tied to experience heavily. 258 00:15:21,550 --> 00:15:25,330 And then one looking a little bit more at that. 259 00:15:26,140 --> 00:15:26,530 I don't know. 260 00:15:26,530 --> 00:15:30,430 I I Did you not walk away from political science? 261 00:15:30,430 --> 00:15:31,600 Did you hold on to that? 262 00:15:31,675 --> 00:15:32,045 Well, yeah. 263 00:15:32,245 --> 00:15:35,725 I mean, scientifically we, that's subtlety gotta, is a Why not? 264 00:15:35,725 --> 00:15:36,525 There's an overlap. 265 00:15:36,795 --> 00:15:38,285 There's a, there's an overlap. 266 00:15:38,805 --> 00:15:42,550 I, I mean when you say you, do you mean me or do you mean Barbara Bar? 267 00:15:42,550 --> 00:15:43,780 'cause I think we, okay. 268 00:15:44,260 --> 00:15:45,130 Two of us have different 269 00:15:45,810 --> 00:15:46,140 Yeah. 270 00:15:46,650 --> 00:15:47,190 Takeaways. 271 00:15:47,555 --> 00:15:51,245 Yeah, Barb also has that sustainability, you know, sustainable resources, 272 00:15:51,275 --> 00:15:52,645 things like that background as well. 273 00:15:52,655 --> 00:15:54,445 So, I think that would appeal. 274 00:15:54,445 --> 00:15:54,485 Sure, sure. 275 00:15:54,485 --> 00:15:55,055 Journalism. 276 00:15:55,215 --> 00:15:55,415 Huh. 277 00:15:55,425 --> 00:15:56,045 Yeah, and journalism. 278 00:15:56,845 --> 00:15:59,205 The other one, which is going to be something that I go to for 279 00:15:59,205 --> 00:16:01,455 fun, which is, I have a book. 280 00:16:02,025 --> 00:16:02,845 I have to look up. 281 00:16:02,845 --> 00:16:03,775 I can see it in my eye. 282 00:16:03,775 --> 00:16:04,665 It's a paperback. 283 00:16:04,685 --> 00:16:06,665 It's a map of London streets. 284 00:16:06,675 --> 00:16:07,795 And it's literally just. 285 00:16:08,335 --> 00:16:12,335 Maps of London streets with the history of each building and then the people 286 00:16:12,335 --> 00:16:15,385 that live there in like an almanac. 287 00:16:15,785 --> 00:16:16,795 It's very relaxing. 288 00:16:17,230 --> 00:16:19,400 It would be nice if they had something like that for everywhere. 289 00:16:19,740 --> 00:16:22,890 Even though, again, we might have a really broad background in things, if there's 290 00:16:22,890 --> 00:16:25,540 certain things that resonate more with us, we just keep coming back to them. 291 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:31,230 And so I use even, even if I use it as a jumping off point, I find that that's 292 00:16:31,230 --> 00:16:36,460 a way to often approach explaining to others for me to say, this is why we want 293 00:16:36,460 --> 00:16:39,660 to understand experience and attachment. 294 00:16:39,670 --> 00:16:43,660 So, By the way, another futon, a very famous work that that feeds into 295 00:16:43,660 --> 00:16:48,270 this tolia right attachment to place, but to try to explain how we might 296 00:16:48,780 --> 00:16:53,640 understand what it is that maybe is connecting with people on a deeper level. 297 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,910 And so the, the profit prospect re refuge idea, right? 298 00:16:56,910 --> 00:16:57,540 The reason why. 299 00:16:57,975 --> 00:16:58,675 It resonates with me. 300 00:16:58,675 --> 00:17:01,065 It's not so much that this is a be all and end all and understand things. 301 00:17:01,375 --> 00:17:05,185 It's that it's a way to explain to others, to approach and say, Look, here's a way 302 00:17:05,185 --> 00:17:11,025 somebody's trying to figure out what it is about certain landscapes that people 303 00:17:11,025 --> 00:17:15,670 might be, might feel affinity for, might Feel more comfortable in or have 304 00:17:15,670 --> 00:17:20,830 an emotion regarding right so that the idea and often to write you see things 305 00:17:20,830 --> 00:17:25,230 in contrast to each other and so one of the images that I show is the very 306 00:17:25,230 --> 00:17:29,410 famous painting or is it the wanderer or whatever the dude standing on the 307 00:17:29,410 --> 00:17:31,630 rock looking out over the vast expanse. 308 00:17:32,175 --> 00:17:36,185 Right, and it brings emotion, or looking at a landscape painting, right, where you 309 00:17:36,185 --> 00:17:41,185 just see across this open space versus maybe looking at something darker and 310 00:17:41,185 --> 00:17:45,085 more closed in, and maybe, you know, some might say, well even that it's not 311 00:17:45,085 --> 00:17:48,955 a refuge, right, so you might have people that react against maybe those, ideas. 312 00:17:48,955 --> 00:17:52,795 So some people out in the open might feel exposed, for example. 313 00:17:53,315 --> 00:17:56,275 So it's even a jumping off point to say, you know, do you agree with this? 314 00:17:56,275 --> 00:17:57,925 And to get people talking about it, right? 315 00:17:57,925 --> 00:18:00,485 So this is someone, so when Appleton, you know, came up with this, he's 316 00:18:00,485 --> 00:18:03,785 trying to understand these various things, but maybe, maybe it's a 317 00:18:03,785 --> 00:18:09,345 jumping off point to say, well, how How comprehensive or how valid is that, right? 318 00:18:09,345 --> 00:18:10,815 Because there are plenty of people who don't like to be 319 00:18:10,815 --> 00:18:12,115 out in the open, for example. 320 00:18:12,405 --> 00:18:15,865 Or plenty of people who are in a, a space that might feel safe and 321 00:18:15,865 --> 00:18:18,465 maybe somewhat closed in actually feel uncomfortable that way, right? 322 00:18:18,465 --> 00:18:19,265 They feel trapped. 323 00:18:19,555 --> 00:18:23,635 So, so I think that, that what I was kind of thinking about with coming 324 00:18:23,645 --> 00:18:27,015 back to some of these ideas is, why do, why do I come back to this 325 00:18:27,015 --> 00:18:31,330 particular one and, and What is it that I think I can, you know, not only for 326 00:18:31,330 --> 00:18:33,000 myself, but for others kind of show? 327 00:18:33,390 --> 00:18:36,000 So everyone here and, and I, but I think in the audience, 328 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:37,130 people are going, you're wrong. 329 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:38,140 And you're right. 330 00:18:38,140 --> 00:18:39,240 It was another O author. 331 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:40,970 It's Dan Openshaw from 1984. 332 00:18:40,970 --> 00:18:42,456 Oh, okay. 333 00:18:42,456 --> 00:18:43,590 For the mob. 334 00:18:43,620 --> 00:18:46,540 And I got my O names mixed up because I felt put on the 335 00:18:46,540 --> 00:18:47,650 spot and didn't have notes. 336 00:18:47,650 --> 00:18:50,705 And I was like, it's an O name, you know. 337 00:18:52,515 --> 00:18:53,235 Like them both. 338 00:18:53,265 --> 00:18:57,835 But yeah, it's Stan Openshaw that did the Modifiable Areal Unit Problem. 339 00:18:58,435 --> 00:19:00,935 So, you know, you had an interesting question. 340 00:19:00,945 --> 00:19:02,885 Did you take anything for political science? 341 00:19:02,915 --> 00:19:08,525 And I, I, I'm going to talk about something that's the anti version of 342 00:19:08,525 --> 00:19:10,460 what you're, you're saying is that. 343 00:19:10,820 --> 00:19:13,040 Now, there are a lot of things in political science that I was like, well, 344 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:18,280 wait a minute, that doesn't match my experience or things that I've observed 345 00:19:18,310 --> 00:19:23,740 or the, you know, what I've gone through or I've watched others go through. 346 00:19:23,830 --> 00:19:27,780 So I don't understand how this body of literature can kind 347 00:19:27,780 --> 00:19:29,490 of get at these conclusions. 348 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:31,480 One of the ones that was. 349 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,240 Very with a big revelation. 350 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,480 I think Barbara would've called, maybe she still is. 351 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,300 I think she still is call, would call herself in political science terms, 352 00:19:40,300 --> 00:19:44,690 an institutionalist the belief in, in institutions and their, their 353 00:19:44,690 --> 00:19:48,870 ability to do things and their own, you know, bodies of existence. 354 00:19:48,870 --> 00:19:53,090 And it's a whole thing in political science discourse is 355 00:19:53,090 --> 00:19:54,170 that idea about institution. 356 00:19:54,795 --> 00:19:58,715 There's also this other theory called the garbage garbage can theory 357 00:19:59,255 --> 00:20:01,205 that talks about policy formation. 358 00:20:01,655 --> 00:20:08,125 And it's this notion that when you ask policymakers, how did you decide 359 00:20:08,135 --> 00:20:12,105 this particular policy would come to the top bubble, to the top, instead 360 00:20:12,105 --> 00:20:15,095 of all these others, this particular solution instead of all these others. 361 00:20:15,865 --> 00:20:20,265 And they said, look, we just, this stuff's kind of just shows up in like a garbage 362 00:20:20,265 --> 00:20:23,545 can almost while we just kind of pick stuff out of the garbage can that just. 363 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:28,280 Hits for that day is this I'm simplifying a lot of this, but that's essentially 364 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,170 their garbage, pale theory of policy. 365 00:20:31,490 --> 00:20:33,870 And that's why these things get picked. 366 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,810 And I was livid when I was listening to this in the class, 367 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,270 because I was like, that is a load of garbage, no pun intended. 368 00:20:41,270 --> 00:20:45,460 They are given the theory because I just spent a year of my life 369 00:20:45,510 --> 00:20:47,540 trying to advocate for policy. 370 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:53,350 And trying to get these things to Within the geospatial realm within the state 371 00:20:53,350 --> 00:20:56,990 of west virginia trying to get these things to the surface And i'm like, 372 00:20:56,990 --> 00:20:58,500 no, it's not just some random thing. 373 00:20:58,500 --> 00:21:04,010 You happen to find on the shelf It's if the right voices get the right volume 374 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:12,230 then they just get more prominence in the decision matrix and So I got very 375 00:21:12,230 --> 00:21:15,860 frustrated with, so the Garbage Pail Theory has been very revelatory to me in 376 00:21:15,860 --> 00:21:21,800 the sense of I don't feel it's holistic and it's also not a term I heard at all 377 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,430 in political science, a positionality is a function of positionality. 378 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:30,010 If you go and ask staffers for policymakers, how does the theory come, 379 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:34,370 how does the policy come to, you know, to bubble to the top to run with it? 380 00:21:35,660 --> 00:21:36,810 Their point of view. 381 00:21:37,115 --> 00:21:41,905 Completely ignores all the stuff that happens before that actually happens. 382 00:21:42,015 --> 00:21:47,295 So in the moment that may be there may not really be even even writing down what 383 00:21:47,295 --> 00:21:48,835 it is, how they picked it or whatever. 384 00:21:48,845 --> 00:21:54,645 But I felt like what you chose to study the scale to use geography terms that they 385 00:21:54,645 --> 00:21:59,815 chose to study dictated the theory and how that performed when I was like, no, 386 00:21:59,825 --> 00:22:03,075 wait, no, there's a whole lot of stuff that goes before that that got ignored. 387 00:22:04,545 --> 00:22:06,465 It was the lack of holisticness. 388 00:22:06,475 --> 00:22:09,455 So that one actually sticks with me a lot because when I do approach 389 00:22:09,455 --> 00:22:13,895 things, I go, what am I missing in the process by what I'm studying, what 390 00:22:13,895 --> 00:22:17,765 I'm looking at, what I'm exploring that I'm not seeing because I, where I 391 00:22:17,765 --> 00:22:20,275 chose to enter the stream of analysis, 392 00:22:21,545 --> 00:22:23,765 I'll jump into the, the none. 393 00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:29,470 geography examples as well, which mine kind of overlaps a little bit on the inter 394 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,450 site level as opposed to intra site level. 395 00:22:32,290 --> 00:22:36,610 But from an archaeological perspective, the book What This All, A. W. 396 00:22:36,620 --> 00:22:45,340 L., means was one of those that, for archaeology, began to set a 397 00:22:45,370 --> 00:22:48,990 new way of providing discourse. 398 00:22:49,450 --> 00:22:54,330 It was a book that provided a traditional discussion of an archaeological site, 399 00:22:54,370 --> 00:23:00,360 but then the next chapter would lay out a humanizing factor, creating an experience, 400 00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:05,410 telling a story around these artifacts that were being found at this site. 401 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,240 And a lot of it centering around an awl and how it was being used day 402 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:13,660 to day and how it eventually made its way from the source material 403 00:23:13,660 --> 00:23:18,550 to being curated to finding its way eventually into the refuse of the site. 404 00:23:19,310 --> 00:23:23,945 Going back and forth, one chapter, traditional archaeology discussion and 405 00:23:23,945 --> 00:23:28,735 methodologies, one chapter story, one chapter discussion and methodologies. 406 00:23:28,735 --> 00:23:32,135 And we've seen that a lot since then, especially in things like 407 00:23:32,615 --> 00:23:38,045 Landscape Experience books and articles that kind of do that as well. 408 00:23:38,055 --> 00:23:41,035 But this is one of the ones that I read first. 409 00:23:41,035 --> 00:23:45,155 I'm not sure if there were a lot before that, but it just You know kind of struck 410 00:23:45,155 --> 00:23:49,335 home for me Not in the counter way that the book that Frank was just talking 411 00:23:49,345 --> 00:23:52,865 about made him wonder about his reality. 412 00:23:54,165 --> 00:23:56,905 No comment on Frank's existential crisis, 413 00:23:58,505 --> 00:24:03,665 you know, it is interesting way to reframe the question that that's 414 00:24:03,665 --> 00:24:08,965 who had is a and and You know, I want to say an 81 or an inverse one. 415 00:24:08,965 --> 00:24:12,045 I don't know what the word is, but it is kind of interesting. 416 00:24:12,045 --> 00:24:15,675 And I think there's a lot I learned in political science that did give me in 417 00:24:15,695 --> 00:24:20,355 opposition to things that were going on in geography in terms of philosophical 418 00:24:20,355 --> 00:24:24,295 approaches, not, you know, necessarily ontology, epistemological level of 419 00:24:24,295 --> 00:24:25,895 philosophy, but, you know, kind of, 420 00:24:26,735 --> 00:24:28,975 how do you actually make the bread work? 421 00:24:29,435 --> 00:24:29,825 Yeah. 422 00:24:29,835 --> 00:24:33,435 And a lot of that, it did have a profound impact on the way 423 00:24:33,435 --> 00:24:35,655 that I think about a lot of. 424 00:24:36,465 --> 00:24:37,825 How we think about geography. 425 00:24:37,835 --> 00:24:42,815 And so, and I, I have a master's degree in national relations and a lot of the 426 00:24:42,825 --> 00:24:48,615 IR theory is very grounded in the person which like leadership theory is really 427 00:24:48,705 --> 00:24:53,645 complicated because when you're looking at it, it's very hard to make political 428 00:24:53,645 --> 00:24:59,655 science theory around singular events with singular people at a single point in time. 429 00:24:59,675 --> 00:25:02,705 And historians would rightfully so come in and say, wait a minute, 430 00:25:02,755 --> 00:25:06,240 you're really Talking about history and history processes and 431 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:07,750 theories and that sort of stuff. 432 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,360 So that bit also made me kind of bring in the geography to go, wait, wait, yeah, 433 00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:17,780 we are trying to come up with systemic understanding that maybe could happen. 434 00:25:17,780 --> 00:25:22,000 But if you're starting from the basis of data and data points. 435 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,630 You're don't got enough so i'm not maybe you're attacking it wrong is what i'm 436 00:25:27,630 --> 00:25:29,240 saying you're using the wrong tool set 437 00:25:29,950 --> 00:25:33,460 well i think too i mean as i'm as i'm kind of listening and and one of the 438 00:25:33,460 --> 00:25:37,260 things that for me and kind of get into this discussion is maybe you don't know 439 00:25:37,260 --> 00:25:42,460 until later like when people when people recommend books to read or or things like 440 00:25:42,460 --> 00:25:46,980 that or maybe even a movie to watch or something you can't really know the impact 441 00:25:46,980 --> 00:25:50,765 but it's but it's interesting you Right, if things really made a difference for 442 00:25:50,765 --> 00:25:53,665 you, for whatever reason, right, whether you agreed with something, disagreed with 443 00:25:53,665 --> 00:25:58,295 something those choices, right, and all of us are, are educators in some way, 444 00:25:58,295 --> 00:26:03,495 right, those choices can sometimes really help somebody else understand whatever 445 00:26:03,495 --> 00:26:07,335 concept that it enlightened you with, you know, or again, be a jumping off point, 446 00:26:07,345 --> 00:26:10,295 especially if you have a strong reaction, there's things that I've read, I won't, 447 00:26:10,345 --> 00:26:13,540 I won't name works, but I remember when I was doing historical archaeology, 448 00:26:13,540 --> 00:26:17,720 there were two things that I was asked to read and I just, I just disagreed with 449 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:22,890 them vehemently of their framework, just because they were trying really hard to 450 00:26:22,890 --> 00:26:26,970 convince you that this particular model of analysis was the way to go and, and 451 00:26:27,490 --> 00:26:32,130 every painful twist they made to try to pin down their stuff to fit into the model 452 00:26:32,130 --> 00:26:34,610 just made it like that much more painful. 453 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,230 And so. 454 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:38,250 I remember those for that, right? 455 00:26:38,250 --> 00:26:41,140 They said, look, I, whatever I do, I'm not going to, I'm not going to try 456 00:26:41,140 --> 00:26:42,700 to force this into this rigid model. 457 00:26:43,140 --> 00:26:49,180 But, but I think that, that thinking about why someone asked you to read things 458 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,620 or, you know, why you gravitated towards something I think is, is really good 459 00:26:52,620 --> 00:26:54,180 because then you have to make a decision. 460 00:26:54,540 --> 00:26:58,860 Like what will I, what will I tell people that I think they should, they should try? 461 00:26:58,860 --> 00:27:02,810 And I'll give a, an actual not a scholarly article, but I can remember 462 00:27:02,810 --> 00:27:03,880 it was actually in history class. 463 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,460 We had to read a book called The Leopard. 464 00:27:06,310 --> 00:27:10,920 And The Leopard was actually made into a movie decades ago, but The Leopard 465 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:16,410 was a book about, a novel about the disintegration kind of of the old order 466 00:27:16,410 --> 00:27:21,450 in Europe and the rise of you know, post industrial stuff in the 19th century. 467 00:27:21,740 --> 00:27:25,815 And I had never really thought about, like, some of those ways that you could 468 00:27:25,885 --> 00:27:30,295 capture that in a, in a microcosm until I read that book, but I would never in a 469 00:27:30,295 --> 00:27:34,255 million years on my own have picked that up, but, but yet I still remember some 470 00:27:34,255 --> 00:27:39,615 parts of that, like how the characters embodied kind of the old traditions. 471 00:27:39,985 --> 00:27:41,665 You had the new industrialist, that kind of thing. 472 00:27:41,665 --> 00:27:45,985 So they were archetype kind of in a way, but anyway that was another example. 473 00:27:45,995 --> 00:27:50,405 Cause I've often asked if anybody else had read that and like, what? 474 00:27:51,785 --> 00:27:54,755 Sue, this is, this is an example of this inaction. 475 00:27:55,015 --> 00:27:59,535 My father sent me a copy of the leopard when he sent me a bunch of vintage books, 476 00:27:59,685 --> 00:28:04,095 vintage map books thinking of me and it sat on my shelf and I haven't read it yet. 477 00:28:04,255 --> 00:28:07,955 And now I'm going to, and I have to say it goes both ways. 478 00:28:07,955 --> 00:28:13,165 I remember the feeling I had when Dr. DeClerico, who's big in political science, 479 00:28:13,195 --> 00:28:14,805 I was reading a book from geography. 480 00:28:14,815 --> 00:28:16,365 It was, it was actually the ghost map. 481 00:28:16,725 --> 00:28:19,025 And I told him, you know, I really enjoy this. 482 00:28:19,305 --> 00:28:21,955 And he asked to borrow the copy to read it. 483 00:28:21,985 --> 00:28:25,390 And I just felt so good that like, He was interested. 484 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,760 He thought something that I was reading and explained was, was worthwhile. 485 00:28:30,580 --> 00:28:33,590 Probably the book though, that I referenced the most in my teaching, 486 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,750 certainly in my teaching, I'm doing, I'm, I'm teaching photography this semester and 487 00:28:36,750 --> 00:28:41,500 I'm definitely referencing it as one form of the fashion is how to lie with maps. 488 00:28:41,900 --> 00:28:46,945 You know, it's It's a seminal book in Geography, but I do 489 00:28:46,955 --> 00:28:48,165 ask myself for the moment. 490 00:28:48,165 --> 00:28:51,525 I discovered this book existed and I was very familiar with the concept 491 00:28:51,525 --> 00:28:55,545 of how to live statistics before that ever but for the moment that I read 492 00:28:55,545 --> 00:28:59,205 that book or Read pieces of that book because I ended up reading it over. 493 00:28:59,655 --> 00:29:02,855 I ended up reading pieces here and there and then ultimately 494 00:29:02,855 --> 00:29:04,255 reading the whole thing in parts. 495 00:29:04,755 --> 00:29:09,125 The moment I, that connect with me, I started asking myself, 496 00:29:09,135 --> 00:29:10,955 what am I lying about in my map? 497 00:29:11,505 --> 00:29:13,845 And is that okay? 498 00:29:13,885 --> 00:29:17,905 Is it purposeful is, you know, which of course led to the overreaching. 499 00:29:17,915 --> 00:29:19,455 What story are you trying to tell? 500 00:29:19,455 --> 00:29:22,715 What is the thing you're trying to communicate the important things in, 501 00:29:22,765 --> 00:29:26,165 in what I think are the important things in cartography, but that 502 00:29:26,165 --> 00:29:32,095 was very critical to my thinking about, or even writing a report. 503 00:29:32,250 --> 00:29:35,560 You know, whereas before it'd be like, these are the data and what it showed. 504 00:29:36,540 --> 00:29:40,090 Now I'm going, well, okay, I picked this data and I picked to 505 00:29:40,130 --> 00:29:43,200 run those numbers and I didn't pick the, run these other numbers. 506 00:29:43,220 --> 00:29:45,830 And I didn't write about why I didn't pick these other numbers. 507 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:52,140 Those things I, I'm presenting a point of view and that has an inherent well, 508 00:29:52,140 --> 00:29:56,580 point of view, I don't wanna say bias, but arguably, yes, bias, and because I'm 509 00:29:56,580 --> 00:30:01,500 doing that, I need to be cognitive of it to either minimize it or acknowledge 510 00:30:01,510 --> 00:30:07,090 that I'm not telling a piece of the story or, you know, I have to be careful, 511 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,410 cognitive that I think, and that, that is something that was very profound 512 00:30:10,420 --> 00:30:11,640 for me about how to live with maps. 513 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,240 And I think it's something that that's why it's in every damn geography 514 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,030 program that you should read this book because it is so profound, but 515 00:30:18,030 --> 00:30:21,430 it's very interesting to me that I haven't read that book in years, but. 516 00:30:21,970 --> 00:30:23,860 I do go back to his concepts. 517 00:30:24,570 --> 00:30:25,900 Almost every map I make 518 00:30:26,290 --> 00:30:30,050 and along with what everyone's been saying, I was thinking about it's 519 00:30:30,340 --> 00:30:31,670 the right book at the right time. 520 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:37,680 I remember when I was struggling in my studies and Dr Marta stopped by with a 521 00:30:37,690 --> 00:30:39,590 book that he had enjoyed when he was in. 522 00:30:39,930 --> 00:30:42,830 I don't know if it was undergraduate or graduate and he sat there and he opened 523 00:30:42,830 --> 00:30:46,310 the book and he wrote in the flap that he believed that I would be able to graduate. 524 00:30:46,835 --> 00:30:50,405 And also, it means I can never get rid of it out of my library, but he did. 525 00:30:50,405 --> 00:30:54,535 He said, you know, in this book, I'm writing this because I, I believe that, 526 00:30:54,555 --> 00:30:56,285 you know, you can, you can do this. 527 00:30:56,365 --> 00:30:59,905 And so I think there's a lot of power in that mentorship. 528 00:31:00,665 --> 00:31:03,885 And sometimes those ones are mundane books that, never really won any awards or 529 00:31:04,005 --> 00:31:06,305 anything like that, but, but again, they were the right time, and I can remember a 530 00:31:06,305 --> 00:31:10,035 history book when I had to teach history when I was in grad school for that. 531 00:31:10,285 --> 00:31:13,655 It was simply just a book on the causes of the First World War, but it was 532 00:31:13,655 --> 00:31:16,665 a book that, that laid them out and summarized them, and it was meant to 533 00:31:16,675 --> 00:31:19,725 be kind of a concise guide, and I still remember, and I'm like, you know what? 534 00:31:20,155 --> 00:31:23,145 That's got it laid out for me, all of the complex things that were going on 535 00:31:23,145 --> 00:31:26,935 and we all know like, you know, the arms race and all the intertwining 536 00:31:26,935 --> 00:31:28,085 alliances and all that kind of stuff. 537 00:31:28,085 --> 00:31:31,985 But even like books like that, right, can resonate with you later because they 538 00:31:31,985 --> 00:31:35,325 helped you understand a topic and it was the way they did it, not necessarily 539 00:31:35,325 --> 00:31:39,355 the topic itself that made them, you know, made them useful or stick with you 540 00:31:39,355 --> 00:31:42,985 and say, yeah, that's, that's something I could go back to to understand. 541 00:31:43,500 --> 00:31:47,130 There was an historian, she was kind of a popular historian blanking on her name, 542 00:31:47,130 --> 00:31:51,800 Catherine, Catherine something maybe, she wrote a series, she wrote a book about 543 00:31:51,810 --> 00:31:54,930 life in a medieval village, for example, that was one of the historian books that 544 00:31:54,930 --> 00:32:00,490 she did, and she did one about World War I, I think, and I can't remember all of 545 00:32:00,490 --> 00:32:08,470 them, but I found her, like you, like you, I found her approach to writing 546 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:16,165 about this stuff to be An amazingly revelatory thing, because all the history 547 00:32:16,165 --> 00:32:24,005 books I had read before that were just try tombs of history, and you kind of 548 00:32:24,015 --> 00:32:26,525 had to get the exciting bits out of it. 549 00:32:27,145 --> 00:32:28,015 And I liked it. 550 00:32:28,045 --> 00:32:28,785 I enjoyed it. 551 00:32:28,795 --> 00:32:29,415 I've always been a big fan. 552 00:32:29,415 --> 00:32:30,465 Huge fan of history. 553 00:32:30,465 --> 00:32:31,605 I have a minor in it. 554 00:32:31,655 --> 00:32:34,565 So I did a lot of history classes, but it was a, it was, you know, you had 555 00:32:34,565 --> 00:32:35,915 to fight for it to really get to it. 556 00:32:35,915 --> 00:32:39,455 But when I started reading her books, I was just like, I just enjoy reading this. 557 00:32:39,455 --> 00:32:40,865 Like, I enjoy reading a novel. 558 00:32:40,895 --> 00:32:44,105 'cause it takes you through so many great things. 559 00:32:44,105 --> 00:32:48,505 And the, I know he, there's a, I know a lot of historians have had 560 00:32:48,535 --> 00:32:51,295 problems with him as, as an historian, but the gentleman who wrote Band of 561 00:32:51,295 --> 00:32:52,765 Brothers, I can't remember his name. 562 00:32:53,135 --> 00:32:56,345 He had a, he took that even further and he had a very similar style. 563 00:32:56,345 --> 00:33:01,665 And then Barbara mentioned the ghost map book and the you know, about the Jon Snow 564 00:33:01,705 --> 00:33:08,590 and, and the London maps again, the style of that makes a very engaging story. 565 00:33:08,590 --> 00:33:12,895 And it's, it's an interesting way to approach communicating information. 566 00:33:12,895 --> 00:33:15,155 And I think it's part of the reason that I've always really. 567 00:33:15,340 --> 00:33:22,760 appreciated those who can push scholarship in a way that You don't need a PhD to 568 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,090 really get that intrigued me the most. 569 00:33:26,100 --> 00:33:27,340 So I, I don't know how to do it. 570 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:33,030 I'll be the first to admit, but I do find that style very compelling. 571 00:33:33,030 --> 00:33:36,030 And, and, and it did change me a lot too. 572 00:33:36,730 --> 00:33:38,340 Was it Catherine Hanley? 573 00:33:38,890 --> 00:33:39,970 I think that sounds right. 574 00:33:40,010 --> 00:33:43,610 I said, I can, I can picture the, I can picture the top of the book of the 575 00:33:43,610 --> 00:33:46,430 edition I had for the one life in a medieval village or something like that. 576 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:48,900 But I cannot remember her name. 577 00:33:51,515 --> 00:33:54,935 Kind of wrapping up the conversation, we'll let the Dr. 578 00:33:54,935 --> 00:33:56,935 Bergeron completely wrap this up. 579 00:33:56,945 --> 00:34:03,345 But I think one of the things to note is that almost all the books that we talked 580 00:34:03,345 --> 00:34:06,575 about are as old or older than we are. 581 00:34:07,125 --> 00:34:14,915 And that's because they became kind of part of, of the disciplines that we were 582 00:34:14,925 --> 00:34:17,545 in a little bit before we got to them. 583 00:34:17,545 --> 00:34:20,105 And so the people who were teaching us, our mentors. 584 00:34:20,790 --> 00:34:25,690 Pass them on to us and so now the books that we're talking about some of them 585 00:34:25,770 --> 00:34:30,830 are the same books but other ones are Ones that build on the books that we've 586 00:34:30,830 --> 00:34:36,790 been talking about and and take us new places and hopefully, you know convey new 587 00:34:36,790 --> 00:34:40,610 ideas As well to those who are reading 588 00:34:40,950 --> 00:34:44,080 just to kind of wrap up, I think it was a great conversation, but it's 589 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:48,300 just interesting how some of those things often from our background, 590 00:34:48,300 --> 00:34:50,280 how we, we use them as touchstones. 591 00:34:50,300 --> 00:34:53,650 We use them as ways to get others you know, to maybe think about 592 00:34:53,650 --> 00:34:54,950 the things we were thinking about. 593 00:34:54,950 --> 00:34:58,300 And, and so there are many, and I'm sure there's tons for you, for 594 00:34:58,300 --> 00:35:02,030 you out there of examples and, and honestly, it doesn't always have to be. 595 00:35:02,220 --> 00:35:05,360 A book or an article or something like that, but, but those are the ones for 596 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,590 us in, in education, right, that we're trying to transmit our background, 597 00:35:09,590 --> 00:35:12,800 our knowledge to others and get them to maybe see and ask questions. 598 00:35:12,870 --> 00:35:16,350 So that was what all started with the prospect refuge because I felt that 599 00:35:16,350 --> 00:35:20,455 this is a theory, right, that's easy, well, not easy, maybe not the, the 600 00:35:20,485 --> 00:35:24,505 right word, but it's, it's one that people can, it can understand, right? 601 00:35:24,515 --> 00:35:27,205 Even if they don't agree with it or they want to, you know, modify it or 602 00:35:27,205 --> 00:35:30,785 do things, is they can understand the concept of it fairly straightforward. 603 00:35:31,245 --> 00:35:33,995 And, and so that was one of the reasons why I liked it. 604 00:35:34,255 --> 00:35:37,925 Yeah, it starts as a very simple idea and then the book builds through. 605 00:35:37,985 --> 00:35:38,495 Exactly. 606 00:35:38,495 --> 00:35:42,485 The various ways you can expand this and it becomes more in depth as you 607 00:35:42,485 --> 00:35:44,695 go through it, but you can start with. 608 00:35:45,710 --> 00:35:45,950 Yeah. 609 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:47,190 And to examine it, right? 610 00:35:47,190 --> 00:35:48,030 To critically examine it. 611 00:35:48,030 --> 00:35:48,900 Like, what do you think of this? 612 00:35:48,910 --> 00:35:51,760 So anyway, so I thought that was a great discussion though, and maybe we'll 613 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,240 have to revisit it with, with different things that, that resonate with us, but, 614 00:35:55,290 --> 00:35:59,120 and some heads up on what the, the comp questions are going to be beforehand. 615 00:36:00,070 --> 00:36:00,380 Yeah. 616 00:36:00,380 --> 00:36:03,470 You know, and it's funny how both you and Barb mentioned that too, 617 00:36:03,470 --> 00:36:04,730 because it does take me back to that. 618 00:36:04,730 --> 00:36:08,200 But, but I tended to use examples of books that really, for me, 619 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,140 right, I could talk about because they did have an impact on me. 620 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,130 You know, it's, it's interesting. 621 00:36:13,130 --> 00:36:18,130 I, I, I, I think we should have this following discussion because I actually 622 00:36:18,130 --> 00:36:21,510 talked a lot more about ideas and I don't necessarily remember the books or the, 623 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:23,190 or even the author in a lot of ways. 624 00:36:23,230 --> 00:36:27,290 Like, so there's things that I can say I didn't mention because I know there's this 625 00:36:27,290 --> 00:36:28,620 concept, this concept, another concept. 626 00:36:28,630 --> 00:36:30,830 They were profound, but I don't remember who wrote it, when they 627 00:36:30,830 --> 00:36:31,680 wrote it, where they wrote it. 628 00:36:32,010 --> 00:36:34,770 So I'm a bad scholar in that regard. 629 00:36:39,225 --> 00:36:40,045 On to the events corner. 630 00:36:40,055 --> 00:36:42,935 As always, we encourage you to check out these events and others. 631 00:36:43,715 --> 00:36:48,815 GeoBusiness will be taking place the 4th and 5th of June in London, in the UK. 632 00:36:48,815 --> 00:36:49,405 RGS 633 00:36:49,985 --> 00:36:54,465 IBG is taking place August 26th through 29th in Birmingham. 634 00:36:54,835 --> 00:36:56,505 Abstracts are due by March 7th. 635 00:36:57,705 --> 00:37:01,705 GIS Pro, which is a great conference if you get a chance to go, is 636 00:37:01,765 --> 00:37:04,225 October 6th in Denver, Colorado. 637 00:37:04,225 --> 00:37:06,115 But abstracts are due by May 5th. 638 00:37:07,305 --> 00:37:09,175 Please, you should present, it's a great place. 639 00:37:09,175 --> 00:37:14,725 Geography 2050, so from the American Geographical Society, will be taking place 640 00:37:14,725 --> 00:37:17,085 November 20th and 21st in New York City. 641 00:37:17,635 --> 00:37:20,275 If you'd like us to add your event to the podcast, send us an 642 00:37:20,275 --> 00:37:21,595 email to podcast at veryspatial. 643 00:37:21,595 --> 00:37:21,915 com. 644 00:37:22,265 --> 00:37:25,155 If you'd like to reach us individually, I can be reached at sue at veryspatial. 645 00:37:25,155 --> 00:37:25,465 com. 646 00:37:25,955 --> 00:37:27,815 I can be reached at barb at veryspatial. 647 00:37:27,815 --> 00:37:28,125 com. 648 00:37:28,295 --> 00:37:29,925 And you can reach me at frank at veryspatial. 649 00:37:29,925 --> 00:37:30,255 com. 650 00:37:30,785 --> 00:37:33,975 Of course, if you'd like to reach any of us, you can head over to veryspatial. 651 00:37:33,975 --> 00:37:37,255 com slash contacts and of course me at Kinda Spatial. 652 00:37:39,275 --> 00:37:41,395 As always, we're the folks from Very Spatial. 653 00:37:41,555 --> 00:37:42,245 Thanks for listening. 654 00:37:42,645 --> 00:37:43,585 We'll see you in a couple weeks. 655 00:37:43,815 --> 00:37:44,085 Guess 656 00:37:47,985 --> 00:37:55,695 this is what drowning looks like Waves of people sending good vibes I'm not alone, 657 00:37:56,715 --> 00:38:03,208 I have someone at home Who's stayed up waiting to tell me goodnight I'm a student 658 00:38:03,208 --> 00:38:12,205 today, goodnight Kiss me then please turn off the lights No, I shouldn't complain. 659 00:38:12,205 --> 00:38:14,675 The good days stay the same. 660 00:38:14,675 --> 00:38:17,115 But I'm drowning in a wave of good vibes. 661 00:38:18,265 --> 00:38:20,755 I wanna be better. 662 00:38:20,755 --> 00:38:21,465 And 663 00:38:28,085 --> 00:38:29,125 together. 664 00:38:29,825 --> 00:38:31,665 Long enough to be better. 665 00:38:34,255 --> 00:38:36,694 Mind your sheets. 666 00:38:36,694 --> 00:38:39,890 Your clothes and my feet. 667 00:38:39,890 --> 00:38:43,727 When it's just you and me. 668 00:38:43,727 --> 00:38:45,645 I should be. 669 00:38:49,945 --> 00:38:50,575 What day? 670 00:38:50,575 --> 00:38:52,985 I don't define the surface. 671 00:38:53,895 --> 00:38:56,925 But therapy just makes me nervous. 672 00:38:57,835 --> 00:39:01,275 So I waste good days having nothing to say. 673 00:39:01,615 --> 00:39:04,075 Even when you call to say you're worth it. 674 00:39:05,695 --> 00:39:07,495 The same thing every day. 675 00:39:07,605 --> 00:39:08,565 You're worth it. 676 00:39:09,625 --> 00:39:12,745 Baby, we will make it through this. 677 00:39:12,810 --> 00:39:14,935 No, I shouldn't complain, 678 00:39:17,435 --> 00:39:20,375 but in a vibe. 679 00:39:31,030 --> 00:39:34,620 Together, long enough to be better. 680 00:39:37,170 --> 00:39:43,379 My bed and your sheets, your clothes and my feet. 681 00:39:43,379 --> 00:39:47,275 Well, it's just you and me. 682 00:39:47,275 --> 00:39:50,521 I should be better here. 683 00:39:50,521 --> 00:39:53,767 I'm searching for good morning. 684 00:39:53,767 --> 00:39:57,013 I'm searching for good day. 685 00:39:57,013 --> 00:40:00,260 I'm searching for good morning. 686 00:40:00,940 --> 00:40:06,270 Yeah. 687 00:40:06,270 --> 00:40:11,600 Yeah. 688 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:16,930 Yeah. 689 00:40:27,490 --> 00:40:30,823 Running off to be better. 690 00:40:30,823 --> 00:40:34,157 My bed and your sheets. 691 00:40:34,157 --> 00:40:37,490 Your clothes and my feet. 692 00:40:37,490 --> 00:40:41,490 When it's just you and me. 693 00:40:41,490 --> 00:40:45,490 I should be better with you. 694 00:40:45,490 --> 00:40:48,823 I should be better with 695 00:40:48,823 --> 00:40:49,490 you. 696 00:40:49,490 --> 00:40:53,490 I should be better with you. 697 00:40:53,490 --> 00:40:57,490 I should be better with you. 698 00:40:57,490 --> 00:41:01,064 It's just that I'm in love with you.