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Welcome back to the Oldest Profession podcast. I'm your host, Kaytlin Bailey, and today we are

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talking about end demand laws. Sometimes you'll hear this policy referred to as the Swedish or

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Nordic model, or even the feminist equality or partial decriminalization model. But no matter

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what it's called, these policies try to eliminate the oldest profession by criminalizing clients and

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the people who facilitate adult consensual sex work.

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In this episode, you'll get to hear directly from sex workers and researchers in places like

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Sweden, Norway, and Iceland, places that implemented the so-called end demand policy

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decades ago. So, let's get into it.

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[Opening music]

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Kira

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So when I started out doing sex work, I thought I was the only one doing it by choice because

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that's how I been raised up by media, by the government in Sweden. So I was looking at other

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people's ads and like, “Oh, somebody have made that ad for them. They never done that by

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themselves because nobody wants to do this. I'm the only one here, who choose to do this.”

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Kira

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So I had to do all the, you know, mistakes and all the things that happened to somebody,

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somebody that starts a new job without any supervising or any kind of help at all.

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But yeah, now I am here a couple of years later and I'm super happy and I'm feeling so much

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more healthy than compared to working in that factory. So, yeah, I can actually say that I think

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sex work actually saved my life, since I think the working the factory would have killed me to the

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end because I was working too hard and…

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You were listening to Kira, who initially reached out to me through Red Umbrella Sweden, which

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is the sex worker rights group there. Sweden, of course, was the first country to criminalize

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clients with the Sex Purchase Act of 1999, with the overall goal of reducing or eliminating

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demand for prostitution, which was and is seen as violence against women.

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Kira

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So my name is Kira Stellar, and I started working with sex work around ten years ago.

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Right now I have my own companies. I do online sex work where I actually have the company,

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and I do everything there legally, moneywise and stuff. And on the side of that, I do meet ups in

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all kinds, like BDSM and I'm an escort.

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From the beginning, when I was young, I always had it in my mind, you know, I wanted to be a

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stripper when I was young, but I was too afraid. So I was, like 35 or something and I was

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working in a factory, and it was like, definitely using my body there. I was, like, feeling as fucked

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at that place because they really forced us to work, and we had to work overtime. And I was not

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feeling good at all. And they didn't let me take time off.

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Kira

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I started doing sex work by the side, and I did that for a couple of years when I was working in

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the factory. And finally when they I was able to work part time for a while because I have kids.

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And when they said like, “No, your kids are too old, you have to work full time.” I said, “Fuck

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you.”

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I walked out of there and I started my own company and started working as a sex worker full

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time. But it was hard, I’m Swedish…

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The Swedish model was eventually exported to multiple countries, including neighbors Norway

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and Iceland. Let's talk to a sex worker advocate from Norway.

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Lilith

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When you're selling something that is illegal to buy then you don't have access to the resources

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that are expected of a business to have. And you're also expected to provide safety for the

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customers that they also don't usually have. So, it creates a weird situation where, yes, you're

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technically not doing anything illegal, but everything around you is illegal.

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And it's your responsibility to help mitigate or reduce other people's criminality.

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Lilith

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Yeah. Correct. Like, I'm in the position that I need the money. So it becomes my responsibility to

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make sure that the people feel safe getting and giving me the money. That means, you know,

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cutting back on my own safety at the times and, in regards to the, you know, being allowed to

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provide my services, it means that I don't even have access to, like, digital services that

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businesses use, so I have to do all that work manually. Which has taken me through quite a lot

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of iteration about how you pay taxes in Norway as a sex worker, which, by the way, sex work is

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taxed. It's not tax exempt just because it isn't considered work.

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My name is Lilith Christine Nepstad Staalesen. I have been a sex worker for, god, at least, five

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or six years now. I've been an activist and employee at PION, the sex workers interests

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organization in Norway. And, yeah, in my free time, I sleep in the woods and scuba dive.

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Amazing. By sleep in the woods, do you mean camping?

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Lilith

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Yeah.

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Ok, all right, good, I was like…

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Thank you.

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Lilith

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[laughs] Like am I a fey creature?

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I think that's very cool. Can you tell me a little bit about, you know, broad strokes, how you came

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to sex worker advocacy?

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Lilith

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I was working at the bar. And at the bar did not pay me that much. So I, supplemented it with the

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sex work, as you do.The customers at the bar found out about my ad and they didn't like that

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very much, so they went to the owner of the bar and said, if you don't you get rid of her, we're

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not coming anymore. So they went and they got me fired.

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Fortunately, I was a member of a union, through my bar employment. And so I went to them.

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This became a court case in which PION helped me a lot with expert testimony and such. I

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actually won.

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So, yeah, that's like the, the, first time it's been said in a court that you can't fire someone for

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being a sex worker because that would mean they earned less money and had to supplement

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settlements with more sex work and the. the entire reason for the, the law and, like, the ideas

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behind the laws is that they want to get rid of sex work,

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That's amazing that this law meant to eradicate sex work ends up creating precedent for

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anti-employment discrimination against sex workers. That's pretty amazing. And like, congrats

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for being the unfortunate pioneer in that case.

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Lilith

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Yeah, like it very perfectly illustrates the opposites of the law of what it's meant to do or what it's

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actually doing and how the philosophies crash because the laws are discriminatory. They are

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built upon false facts. When you put them into reality, you see that they lead to discrimination,

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which, creates vulnerabilities which creates more sex work.

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Iselin

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One of the main reasons that we got this law here in Norway was this idea that it was supposed

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to have a normative function, it was supposed to make it less socially acceptable to pay for the

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services of sex worker, sex workers. And this has, of course, happened. But the effect of this is

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that sex workers also become more stigmatized.

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Iselin, if you wouldn't mind, could you start by just introducing yourself?

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Iselin

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So my name is Iselin Kristiansen. I'm based in Oslo. I'm a photographer and a researcher, and I

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spent the last, I don't know, four or five years doing a research and documentary project on the

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topic of sex workers. It's a collaborative photo project in which the participants are also

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co-researchers and co-creators of the project.

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Iselin, speaking as a researcher, can you talk about the impact that these end demand laws

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have had in Norway?

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Iselin

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And we have research on this, this is making the stigma much bigger than it used to be. So now

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the population is more open to also criminalizing the sex worker.

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So the stigma affects, of course, the one that buys. It really, really also affects the person selling

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the services. I think that this idea of this normative function, when people talk about that, say

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that, “oh, it's so good It has a normative function.” But then it’s like, no but this is actually the

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stigma, you're saying that stigma is good and stigma is never, ever, ever good.

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Yeah. Let's look at that stigma and how it impacts sex workers trying to make a living. And one

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of the ways that we can do that is looking at how the law is applied, based on what the police

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and the general public think they know about sex work.

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Kira

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The law makes it harder for us, and it makes it really complicated to get a bank account, to…I

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don't know how many times I've been at this social service to fight for my kids. Yes, because I'm

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a sex worker. It's not…it's still legal to be a sex worker in Sweden. But I still had to fight for my

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own kids because I'm not considered a good mom being a sex worker.

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That's Kira again, the working mom from Sweden you heard earlier in the episode.

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Kira

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And right now I'm also in an ongoing court case that is going on with my husband because he

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knows that I'm a sex worker and therefore, he's being accused for being my pimp. And, the

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prosecutor wrote in the text there like that he should have forced me to stay home and not go

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away to seek customers. And I'm like, should he have tied me up to the stove or what's the

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idea?

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So that’s how they look at sex workers, that we are really bad, and the ones that doesn't exist is

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really treated badly by the police and by social services. And, it's really hard.

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Kira, can you talk a little bit about the BDSM dungeon that you and your husband built on your

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property?

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Kira

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Yes. So me and my husband both have, you know, an interest in BDSM. So since we live on a

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farm and we have a lot of space in our barn, we actually built a BDSM dungeon that is for both

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of us. So he actually has his own room, and I have my own room there. We own our property

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and we are both owners, so it's like 50-50 owners. So I felt like, okay, I'm using my part of this

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barn, you know, and he was never there when I had clients or anything, but, that's one of the

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problems that he actually was aware that I did and that he helped me build this BDSM dungeon,

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even though it was years before I actually started seeing clients. So that's why they can accuse

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him for being my pimp. So the law is really complicated how they use it.

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And three years ago that the police came and knocking on my door, and took me to the police

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station and they went through my entire house, took all my computers, all my cell phones,

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everything I own, like, you know, everything that could be connected to my sex work, like video

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cameras and everything and all my cash, since they don't want us to use cash in Sweden,

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everything. Even if somebody uses cash in Sweden, they look at you like it has to be illegal

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money. Everybody uses cards in Sweden.

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And they also went to my husband's job and grabbed him by the neck and right into the police

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station. We were in two separate rooms, and they interrogated us for several hours. During the

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time, I also had to fight to keep the phone in that room because I have kids and they usually call

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during the days and I felt like I'm supposed to be the victim or…but that's not how they treated

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me, they were really rough. And they also went through our house and looked for drugs

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because, of course, I'm the sex worker, has to be drug related. I don't know if they use that to be

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able to get a warrant for the house.

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So after that, my husband got accused for being a pimp and first accused me for money

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laundering. After a while, they realized that it's not money laundering because you are allowed

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to take sex work money and put it into the company. So then they went through my accounts

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and see that I got a little bit too much money into my private accounts. So it was tax fraud

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instead. So I got accused for tax fraud during this. I choose to agree to it and say, yes, I did it

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and only got a fine. And it didn't go to court.

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For my husband, he didn't agree that he's a pimp. So he went all the way to court. It took a

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couple of years before they actually got there because, I don't know, they just wanted him to

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kind of suffer. During this time, they have also taken him in a couple of times, interrogated him

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and they have done really hard to really work on humiliating him because since he's, BDSM,

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he's a rubber fetish guy. So they have, like, printed out pictures of him wearing rubber stuff, and

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it's like, it doesn't have anything to do with this, but I think they use that just to humiliate us, you

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know, because if it's in the police papers, it's open for everybody to see. They have put out my

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name, my records, my facial pictures, and everything.

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So this is a really ongoing problem. Also, the police went out in media, a really big media in

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Sweden that made one of these trauma porn as we call it, you know, and they write about this

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horrible sex worker, and she had this BDSM dungeon up in her barn. And, we live in a small

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town, so it's kind of easy to figure out who it is.

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So, after that, my husband, he needed to get a new job, but he had a really hard time to get a

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job in this area because he's, you know, known as the guy that sold his wife. So now, he’s

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actually living…he's coming home every second weekend because he lives far away and had to

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get work, like, far away from home.

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Kira, that story is insane. I'm so sorry that you and your family have had to go through that. Can

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you explain to me and our listeners how the laws in Sweden make that possible?

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Kira

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So we do already have a lot of laws that are supposed to protect people from, you know, be

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forced to work with something they don't want to work with, but they still want to have this

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pimping law and it's…I think the idea of it might be good, you know, that you don't want anybody

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to, force somebody.

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But in this case, they use the word you're not allowed to främja. Yeah, it's a Swedish word. It's

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like it's underneath helping. That is like, lower than helping anybody. Almost like just knowing

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that somebody is a sex worker can put you into, you know, being accused for being a pimp.

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Kira, all of that is horrific. Can you talk a little bit about how your children have been impacted by

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all of this?

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Kira

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Yes. So I have already been to the social service several times since people reported me as a

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sex worker to them, so I had to go there and say that, hey, I'm a sex worker. Yes, but my kids

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don't know anything about this and they feel like, okay, it's a good environment after all, let's

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make it go on. But when the police came here, they made a report to the social services, and

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that's kind of like, I don't know, it's harder or, you know, they have to take it really seriously. So

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this time they decided that we were going to talk to the kids about this.

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But I told them, like, my kids, they don't know that I'm a sex worker. They see me as a staying

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home mom.

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And they’re like, “Yeah, but if we’re going to interrogate them, you have to tell them first.”

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So I had to come out to my kids. They forced me to come out to my kids about it, and then they

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can interrogate my kids about it, how they felt…

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How old were they when that happened?

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Kira

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Not really teenager, but, you know, like ten, 12 around that age.

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I have a really hard time talking about my sex work with my kids. But they kind of remember how

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I was when I was working in the factory that I had on repeat, like, “I don't have the energy to do

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it. We have to do it another day. I don't have the energy. We have to do it another day.” I had

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that on repeat constantly because I had no energy. I was so stressed out. I was so tired. And

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now when I do sex work, I can put my work entirely around how my kids do or what they if they

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need to have a day at home, I can adjust everything around their lives.

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And I actually let my kids kind of choose, like, if you want me to, I can continue do this sex work

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where you don't really see what I'm doing. I won't really tell you, but I will be home.

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I will be home cooking dinner when you come home for school. And I will do that. Or I have to

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get a regular job. But that's going to take me back to how it was before. And yes, my kids

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actually wanted me to do sex work because then I would be a better mom for them.

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00;20;20;00 [Break]

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00;21;45;28

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Astrid

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My name is Astrid Renland, and I'm a criminologist. I'm working for a Norwegian Sex Worker

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organization, which is an organization with funding from the state, but still with very low

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economic resources. So I've been doing besides working for PION in the region, the Norwegian

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sex worker organization. I'm also working as a freelance journalist as, well, as I'm doing a lot of

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other things.

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Astrid is an expert on sex worker policy and the history of sex worker policy in Norway, and she

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explained to me that in the mid 1800s, there was a little moral panic that temporarily led to the

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criminalization of selling sex in Norway but that those laws were overturned in 1902. And so

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between 1902 and 2009, buying or selling sexual services was not a crime in Norway.

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Now I think it's important to have some historical context for prostitution in Norway, which has

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historically been a pretty tolerant country. But in the 1990s, where this antagonism towards sex

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buyers is really heating up in the region, you get a wave of immigrants from Thailand to

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Scandinavia and specifically Norway. This results in an increase in visible brothels or massage

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parlors that were offering sexual services, and starts to stir a bit of a xenophobic sex panic. At

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the same time the anti-sex feminists of the country are emboldened and they start doing these

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vigilante individual stings, right, dressing up or posing as sex workers and then publicly shaming

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any clients they tricked into soliciting them.

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Astrid

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So they had the they had like gab they, they pretended, they was standing there like and looked

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like they were selling sex and, and, trying to stop the car. There was, there was, tagging like

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“whore client” on the car.

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Wait, wait. I'm sorry. Hold up. Let me get this. I want to get this straight. So anti-prostitution

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vigilantes were playing dress up as sex workers and luring potential clients into agreeing to pay

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them for advertised sexual services. And then when they did, they spray painted their cars and

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called them like perverts and pimps might. Am I getting that right?

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Astrid

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Yeah and it was this radical part of the women’s movement, the radical feminists. And they say

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that they were attacking clients because this is basically the same as attacking the sex workers.

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So Sweden adopts the end demand model in 1999. And Sweden is a bit of a regional leader. So

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of course, Norway, Iceland, other Scandinavian countries take note and start looking into

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whether or not this model would be appropriate. Legislators in Norway are very interested in this

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policy, and they went so far as to study it. Now Astrid, as a member of PION, an interested

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party, a government-funded, sex worker-led advocacy and research center in Norway, helped

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the government look into this and walked away with the demonstrable, empirical, measurable

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results that further criminalizing sex work in Norway was going to lead nowhere good fast. That

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instead they should continue to treat this as a social problem and not a criminal problem. And

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that was the official recommendation.

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And they published that report in 2005. But it's in the midst of another immigration wave, this

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time from Nigeria, that resulted in a much more visible form of street-based prostitution. And this

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sent the xenophobes over at the edge. And so, in 2009, Norway adopts the end demand model,

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combining the feminist, so-called progressive or historically liberal impulse to save women from

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bad options with the openly racist, reactionary conservative impulse to crack down on criminals.

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And in fact, Amnesty International wrote a scathing report in 2016 about how Norway came to

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implement these end demand laws, specifically kicking mostly Nigerian immigrants out of their

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homes.

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I want to talk about Iceland.

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Now, Iceland adopted the Nordic model in 2009. And Iceland is a very small country. Today,

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there are about 370,000 people that live in the country. But Iceland has a global reputation of

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being one of the most feminist countries in the world. And I want to talk a little bit about the

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history behind that reputation.

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In 1975, when feminism was sort of popping off all over the world, the women of Iceland got

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together. And when I say the women of Iceland, I mean all of the women in Iceland got together

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and organized a national day off, basically a national strike from both paid and unpaid labor. And

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90% of the women of Iceland participated in this.

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So let me break down a little bit of what that means, right? So obviously the women in Iceland

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with jobs didn't show up for them, but also 90% of the women refused to participate in domestic

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labor. And so what this meant is that men all over the country were like bringing toddlers to

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work, ruining loads of laundry, going hungry, or burning hot dogs. There are all these really

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amazing stories, actually, of like, men, like powerful men, showing up to the office with, like,

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children with full diapers, hoping to make that like their secretaries problem. Except the

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secretaries didn't show up for work that day either. And after only one day of simply, like, kicking

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their feet up and, like, refusing to do the thing, the women of Iceland brought the entire country

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to its knees.

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And since that day, Iceland has had proportionally more women in power than any other country

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in the world. But that's not why they implemented the Nordic model.

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Logn

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There's still this myth in Iceland which, you will recognize, Kaytlin, that there aren't really sex

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workers in Iceland, or at least Icelandic sex workers.

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Yeah, I can 100% confirm that. The first time I visited Iceland, I did so as a tourist in 2016. And I

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had just started telling my sex worker story. And one of the places that I like to do that was, was

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with strangers on airplanes. And so I was seated next to this Icelandic man, and as soon as I

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told him that I was a sex worker rights advocate, he told me that he thought that that was so

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interesting, but that there, that there was not something that they had to deal with in Iceland

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because it was simply too small a country.

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And like even I, a historian, someone who's obsessed with this totally fell for that lie. And it

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wasn't until I performed my show in Iceland, which is, of course, where you and I met, where I

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was able to meet other sex workers that, like, not only live, but Icelandic sex workers, where I

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was like, oh, that guy was just wrong.

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Logn

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My name is Logn. I am the co-founder of Red Umbrella Iceland or Rauða Regnhlífin.

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So, I was born in Reykjavik, Iceland. I lived there until I was seven. I come from, I would say a

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working class background. I lived in the undesirable part of Reykjavik. I grew up there until I was

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seven, and then my family moved to the UK. I lived there until I was 25.

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I started doing full service sex work in, I can't remember if it was 2014 or 2015. And I was doing,

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in-person sex work as well as online sex work for a few years until 2017. I moved back to

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Iceland in 2016, but I did go to the UK to work, because I didn't feel safe to work in Iceland, to

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be honest. I had heard so many terrible things, you know, about the reality of it from

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sex work activists on the ground in countries with a Swedish model like Sweden, and I was

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terrified, honestly. So I would go back to the UK to work, until 2017, when I stopped. And that's

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how I came into the, I guess, the sexual activist space.

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Logn, can you talk to us a little bit about how the end demand laws have impacted people doing

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this work in Iceland?

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Logn

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So we have had a report from a sex worker, where the police told this woman that if she was to

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share safety information, harm reduction information, about sex work in person, she would be

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aiding and abetting, or encouraging prostitution, which could be classed as being illegal, which

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has put us in a bad spot because we don't know what is safe for us to tell other workers as a

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harm reduction group.

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Yeah. Of course, because anything that you do could be construed as promotion, right?

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Information about how to do this work safely. Resources lists of safe service providers. That's

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all, all pimping. It's all a promotion. And it's all exploitative in the eyes of this law.

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Logn

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We don't know what we can legally tell people because we don't want to have our organization

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wrapped up in some kind of scandal of, like, us trying to encourage people into prostitution.

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And I don't think Logn is exaggerating at all. It's very dangerous to be an out sex worker in any

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of these countries, but especially in Iceland, because it's such a small country. And in places

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where these laws have been implemented, people hate sex workers.

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Iselin

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I have a pub that I go to sometimes. It was in this place, like, where recently I was sitting and

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these two guys older than me were sitting and bragging, and they didn’t know who I was and

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what I was working with so this was not this kind of context that I was talking about earlier, but

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they were talking about, bragging about throwing stink bombs on brothels in the old days when

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we used to have brothels, because there was a lot of brothels, actually, in this area.

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And this is…and they think they are kind of probably they think they're signaling that they're to

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the people around them that they're really good feminists, really good punks……

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Kira

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It's really, really tough to be a sex worker association in Sweden because you get so much

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against you.

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As l feel is that the government and media together have brainwashed people to think that

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people never want to do sex work at all, and everybody that does it is forced to do it, and they

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continue to spread that information in all kinds of ways.

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So when I tell new people that I know that don't know that much about sex workers are mostly

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surprised, because they actually don't know that people can choose to be a sex worker because

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they think that everybody's forced to do it.

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So I think that is one of the biggest problem with the law that we have right now, and how they

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work around it, that they kind of try to end demand by saying that we don't exist.

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Lilith

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The Nordic model benefits no one. It does not benefit the sex workers because it makes their

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lives harder. It does not benefit the people around them, because it creates a great divide. It

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certainly does not benefit clients. I often would not champion the clients, but quite a lot of them

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are good people and they are paying for consenting sex. And, they are made criminals by a

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moral panic. And this law does no good for anyone. And, it especially puts people who are

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already in a precarious situation into a worse one. It is by far one of the worst things you can do

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for a group of marginalized people who need a better situation.

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Yeah. Can you talk just a little bit more about how this law specifically hurts victims of trafficking

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and exploitation in the sex industry?

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Lilith

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if you are forced here, via trafficking or if you come here and know that you're doing sex work,

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but the work is performed in a very exploitative manners, under these laws, you get fewer rights.

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As I stated earlier, the human trafficking charge is often downgraded to a pimp charge. But, you

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are no longer a victim of a crime. You are just the object of someone else's crime against the

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state.

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Every sex worker that I talked to in every country that has implemented end demand laws. I'm

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talking about Canada. I'm talking about folks that I've spoken to in Israel. I'm talking about folks

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that I’ve spoken to in Ireland. Everywhere this law has been implemented, it is impossible to

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screen clients.

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Kira

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I could tell my feeling about this.

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KB

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That's Kira again, the woman who quit her factory job so that she could spend more time with

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her children.

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Kira

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Yes, I don't do any kind of screening of my customers. Yes, I live in a small town. I need all my

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customers I can get, and my customers are too afraid to show me any I.D. or anything,

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especially after they know that I've been in contact with the police against my will.

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And since also I'm too afraid to take customers to where I live now, you know, to my house,

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because mostly to save my husband out of, you know, being accused again. And since we live

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in small town, they outed me in media, I can't really go to the hotels nearby either because they

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know who I am. They know I'm a sex worker, you know, it's a small town. Everybody knows I'm

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a sex worker.

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In Sweden, and under most versions of the Nordic model law, hotels are aggressively

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discouraged from renting rooms to any known sex worker in the same way that landlords are

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discouraged.

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Kira

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So I actually meet a lot of my customers out in the woods in a car. We meet up with our cars in,

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in the middle of the woods somewhere, you know, and I have no idea who I'm meeting. No idea.

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It can be pitch dark, and I'm meeting a guy I don't have no idea what, you know, looks because

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it's dark and we meet in a car.

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And a while ago, we had that thing going on here in Sweden. They were, like, discussing that,

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you know, women rather meet a bear out in the woods than a man, because we're more afraid

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of men than a bear.

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And I have to do the opposite because of this law that we have in Sweden that it's here to

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protect me in making that total opposite that makes me go out in the woods and something

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happened, I wouldn't have any idea of who I just met. And that's what the law does to me.

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Lilith

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I think the most egregious thing they’ve done is operating homeless, which it was a big thing

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before, but they still do the same thing now, just not in such a large scale.

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So the police will pretend to be a client or they will, you know, follow a sex worker they know is a

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sex worker to the building where they work from or at least live. And they will contact the

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property manager or the landlord there and tell them such and such person is a sex worker and

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if you don't, they will throw them out now than if we're charging you with pimping. They risk

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massive fines or jail time, if they don't throw them out.

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And so, the sex worker becomes homeless. So we had stories about the sex workers, walking

428
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out to get the groceries done and coming back to our locked door and didn't even get to get their

429
00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:09,000
things. We regularly have sex workers who were thrown out, who lose their entire deposit.

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Kira

431
00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:11,000
As it is right now, even the government is discussing to make something similar as the Swedish

432
00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:12,000
model to online sex work. So like camshows and all kind of, yeah, they want to ban not like

433
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:13,000
pre-made porn, but everything like cam shows, when somebody is sitting on the other side and

434
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can decide what you are doing and that would be bad.

435
00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:15,000
So they are actually discussing that and trying to get that to get through.

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KB

437
00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:17,000
I just want to jump in with an update for our listeners. After we recorded this interview, Sweden

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did, in fact, pass this law that Kira is talking about, expanding the definition of sex buying to

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include digital content.

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00;40;38;17 [break]

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00;43;37;00

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KB

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So far In this episode, we've heard a lot of voices from a lot of countries. But in this next section,

444
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I want to spend some time with one person who's done sex work in several different places

445
00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:25,000
under a variety of legal models, including Sweden, which of course was the first country to

446
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adopt end demand laws in 1999.

447
00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:27,000
Leo

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I work under the name Leo Love. I have been a full service sex worker for ten years now. And I

449
00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:29,000
also dabble in online work in the subscription sites and selling clips. I think most of us have, like,

450
00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:30,000
a finger in every pie so to speak.

451
00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:31,000
I actually grew up in the U.S.. I moved to Sweden just over four years ago now, and I have done

452
00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:32,000
sex work on three continents under three different models of legislation, which I think has been

453
00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:33,000
very interesting insights into the industry and how the legal models work.

454
00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:34,000
So I began my career, if you could call it that, ten years ago in Australia while I was studying

455
00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:35,000
there. And I have, like many of the people in my community, have multiple chronic illnesses and

456
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physical disabilities. So I had worked in the restaurant industry for ages and I got fired from a

457
00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:37,000
gig, and I was like, you know what?

458
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I can't hack this anymore. My body physically can't do it. I can't be on my feet 14 hours a day

459
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waiting tables, working in the bar. And so I was living in Victoria, in Melbourne, Australia, where

460
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brothels were legal. The legislation model has changed in the past ten years. So I thought, you

461
00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:41,000
know, let's give it a crack.

462
00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:42,000
I'd always been kind of fascinated by porn performers and by this whole kind of taboo industry.

463
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So I set up an interview at a brothel, bought a pair of heels at the thrift store, walked in there on

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my shaky little bambi legs, so to speak. And, they asked me two questions. They assked, have

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you done sex work before?

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And I said no. And they asked, have you had sex before? And I said, yes. They're like, great,

467
00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:47,000
come on in. I feel very, very lucky to have begun doing full service sex work in a legal brothel. I

468
00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:48,000
was surrounded by these women who were experienced. And who really took me under their

469
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:49,000
wing and showed me, you know, ways to work that were safer and more pleasurable and what

470
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:50,000
to expect and how to be a sex worker, basically.

471
00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:51,000
And I'm very grateful for that, because I know most people, especially people in criminalized

472
00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:52,000
countries, don't have that experience and can't have that experience. So I'm grateful for that.

473
00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:53,000
And then I moved back to New York, where I'm from, began doing independent escorting there

474
00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:54,000
for many, many years and then moved to Sweden. And now work under the model of partial or

475
00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:55,000
asymmetric criminalization that we know as the Nordic model or the Swedish model, or the

476
00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:56,000
feminist model, or the end demand model, or the equality model, or whatever rebrand they've

477
00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:57,000
come up with this year.

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00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:58,000
KB

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00:07:58,000 --> 00:07:59,000
Yeah. I just want to jump in and say that if this was such a positive and successful policy, then

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00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:00,000
probably it wouldn't have to keep changing its name so often.

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00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,000
Leo

482
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:02,000
So I have this, this, this, you know, trifold experience of working under legalization, under total

483
00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:03,000
criminalization, and under the Nordic model of asymmetric criminalization. And it's a trip. It's a

484
00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:04,000
trip to have these conflicting experiences.

485
00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:05,000
My ideal form of working is in a brothel, which blows the minds, particularly of the Swedish

486
00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:06,000
feminists who believe that that's like the most repressive means of working. But to me, it just

487
00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:07,000
means no laundry and, like, no ads, you know?

488
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:08,000
In New York, I really kind of can fly under the radar, especially, you know, being an American

489
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:09,000
and white and, you know, living in certain neighborhoods. The police are not interested in me in

490
00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:10,000
New York. And I have that, that privilege and that benefit.

491
00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:11,000
And here in Sweden, the cops are nuts, like the way that they conduct themselves and the

492
00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:12,000
attitudes that they have, as well as the attitudes of the general public are unbelievable. Truly to

493
00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:13,000
me, as an American in New York, I could screen my clients. I cannot screen clients in Sweden.

494
00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:14,000
And because of the asymmetric criminalization, the burden is placed upon our clients, they're

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not willing to make themselves, quote unquote, vulnerable in that way because their information

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can and will lead to them being criminalized, losing their jobs, ending up in prison, losing their

497
00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:17,000
families, losing their housing and so because they feel that they have that burden, they are not

498
00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:18,000
willing to play ball with us when it comes to screening. So because they carry the burden of

499
00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:19,000
criminalization, we carry the burden of reduced safety.

500
00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:20,000
I also can't work out of my home here. I rent an apartment, and because we have laws that

501
00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:21,000
criminalize third parties, which is meant to criminalize pimps and brothel managers, but as we

502
00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:22,000
see with Kira's story, also criminalize family members, landlords, drivers, security personnel. I

503
00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:23,000
can't work out of my home, so I'm forced to go to other people's homes, which makes me less

504
00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:24,000
safe and exposes me to more risk and more danger.

505
00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:25,000
And of course, you know, if the model of legislation here wants to focus on criminalizing clients,

506
00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:26,000
how do you find the clients? You surveil sex workers, you find out where they live, you stake out

507
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their homes.

508
00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:28,000
I mean, there are police in Sweden that literally brag about climbing trees outside of sex

509
00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:29,000
workers’ apartments and spying on them with binoculars like that actually happens. It's

510
00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:30,000
unbelievable. The Swedish people really don't understand when I tell them I had more power,

511
00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:31,000
safety, and control working in New York City under full criminalization than I do under this, like,

512
00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:32,000
supposedly feminist and progressive laws that we've had here for 25 years in Sweden.

513
00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:33,000
And 25 years, you know, if this law is like an ideology, you'd think that 25 years would be

514
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enough time to work out the kinks. And that's not happening because there's no motivation to do

515
00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:35,000
that.

516
00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:36,000
The leftist spaces here really feel that they need to take up this narrative of the oppressed, sex

517
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,000
workers, you know, the misogynistic, upholding the patriarchy thing, which makes it really

518
00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:38,000
difficult for us to find any allies in Sweden. We have zero allies in this country. Nobody wants to

519
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:39,000
work with us. Like, you know, I was saying, no one will rent space to us. No one will meet with

520
00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:40,000
us. Was it two years ago now, perhaps that the legislation came through that changed the

521
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minimum punishment for clients in Sweden from a fine to mandatory jail time.

522
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And so we protested against that in Sweden, and we managed to also have, we flew in

523
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:43,000
speakers from across the continent who came and collaborated with us because no one, like we

524
00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:44,000
said, no one in Sweden will collaborate with us.

525
00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:45,000
I think we sent emails to, like, 150 different politicians in Sweden. YOu don't even have to come

526
00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:46,000
to the protest. Just talk to us. Just hear what we have to say. You're making laws about us. Talk

527
00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:47,000
to us. We've got responses from two of them. And no meaningful responses either, of course.

528
00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,000
So, yeah, I mean, when you talk about “everyone wants to talk about us and no wants to talk to

529
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:49,000
us,” that is a huge, huge barrier for us.

530
00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:50,000
Red Umbrella Sweden is a member organization of the European Sex Work Alliance, among

531
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:51,000
other sort of umbrella organizations of that nature. And our comrades across the continent are

532
00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:52,000
continually shocked and appalled to hear about the treatment and the stigma in Sweden. 25

533
00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:53,000
years after the implementation of the Nordic model, more Swedes are now in favor of

534
00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:54,000
criminalizing selling sex as well. The stigma has only increased. And that's a clear failure of this

535
00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:55,000
model. I mean, we were witnesses to a crime, but we're also victims of a crime, but we're also

536
00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:56,000
traitors to feminism.

537
00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:57,000
It's really hard to suss out kind of where we stand, but continually, the only consistent thing is

538
00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:58,000
that where we stand is not good.

539
00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:59,000
00;52;25;13 [break]

540
00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:00,000
00;53;50;06

541
00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:01,000
Kira

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00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:02,000
I was working a couple of years all by myself, and then I saw an ad about an association in

543
00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:03,000
Sweden called, Fuckförbundet. It was a sex worker association that we had back then. And so I

544
00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:04,000
went there and it was actually the first time I saw other sex workers that said that, you know, I

545
00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:05,000
choose to be sex worker.

546
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:06,000
So it was such an intense moment for me. Like it was amazing. It was like if I was religious and

547
00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:07,000
went to church, I think, you know, you get together, you meet other people that think the same

548
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:08,000
as you, that feel the same as you. And it was like, oh, wow.

549
00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,000
So pretty fast, I got involved in Fuckförbundet and I'm also pretty involved in what we have now,

550
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:10,000
Red Umbrella Sweden. Yes, because I think it's super important that we have a community for

551
00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:11,000
sex workers in Sweden because it feels so lonely here.

552
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:12,000
Lilith

553
00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:13,000
I believe I first heard about the PION during a pride event the year before I became a

554
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:14,000
full-service sex worker. PION always had close ties to the gay, the gay community.

555
00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:15,000
PION does peer support and outreach work. That means that when there are messages that the

556
00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:16,000
sex workers in the area and advertisers should know about, we will get the word out to sex

557
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:17,000
workers. For example, if there's a violence happening, if, you know, people are handing out fake

558
00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:18,000
money. Or if there's a big event happening that, they might be interested in joining,

559
00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:19,000
And, of course, we take their needs back. We tell their stories and their needs to people who

560
00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:20,000
need to hear that, like healthcare workers, politicians. We tell them what situation sex workers

561
00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:21,000
are in, teach them also how to actually, like, better communicate with sex workers.

562
00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:22,000
Logn

563
00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:23,000
We started the group sort of informally in 2016. My first sort of reason, I guess, for wanting to

564
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:24,000
start Red Umbrella Iceland was there was nothing like this in Iceland.

565
00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,000
Mia

566
00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:26,000
It's also so difficult to find people that have been engaged in sex work or are currently in sex

567
00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:27,000
work because Iceland is such a small country. There's only, what, 350,000ish people and

568
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:28,000
everyone knows everyone.

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00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:29,000
KB

570
00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,000
Mia, would you mind introducing yourself?

571
00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:31,000
Mia

572
00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:32,000
So, hi. My name is Mia, I'm one of the members of Red Umbrella Iceland. I sort of started this

573
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:33,000
kind of advocacy work and volunteer work in 2021 or 2020 is kind of like…because I moved

574
00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:34,000
back to Iceland in 2020. I had been living in Berlin and I had been stripping there, which was

575
00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:35,000
kind of the, the how I started in the sex work. And, I came back and there was just…I was used

576
00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:36,000
to being very active in the feminist scene in Iceland and, like, taking part in all these kind of

577
00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:37,000
rights, like this rights activism.

578
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:38,000
But then I noticed in some Facebook groups, like feminist Facebook groups, they were debating

579
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:39,000
sex work. And I came in there, like, pointing out that they shouldn't talk like this about sex

580
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:40,000
workers, and they should be listening to sex workers, and that this was not a welcoming

581
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:41,000
environment for sex workers to speak about their experiences.

582
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:42,000
So like it's such a stigmatized industry and this kind of undercurrent of Puritanism where it's like,

583
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:43,000
oh, no, you know, doing sex work is bad and you're like dirty in some way. It really makes it

584
00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:44,000
extra hard for people to even get connected with the community.

585
00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:45,000
Yeah, so I feel very hopeful. Like we're always building a better community and kind of, getting

586
00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:46,000
in touch with more sex workers. Sometimes it takes people a while to contact us and then when

587
00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:47,000
they finally do and just speak to us, they feel relieved because we're not shaming them and

588
00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:48,000
we're not judging them.

589
00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:49,000
And what held them back from contacting us was that they were just so scared to talk, talk to

590
00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:50,000
anyone about this. But I also feel, like, with the OnlyFans boom that like happened during Covid,

591
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:51,000
there was increased, like, conversation about this in general and about sex work and there

592
00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:52,000
started to be so many sex workers in Iceland on OnlyFans

593
00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:53,000
Logn

594
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:54,000
So when we get things, like, recently, we got a message from a full-service worker, who we like

595
00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:55,000
to check in on every few months, like we do with most of our people in our community. And she

596
00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:56,000
said it means so much to me that you, like, that you contact me and that you give me space to

597
00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:57,000
talk, because no one does that for me. There is no one else. And it just made me realize how

598
00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:58,000
important the work that we're doing is, because there is no one else. There is no one checking

599
00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,000
in on, like, very vulnerable people and people who are incredibly isolated all over Iceland.

600
00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:00,000
Logn

601
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,000
And so, I don't know, it was a beautiful moment for me to kind of sit back a little bit and realize

602
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:02,000
that what we're doing is important, even though we might not get a lot of mainstream media

603
00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:03,000
attention, or people might be in the, in the mainstream, people might be a little bit scared of us.

604
00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:04,000
It shows that what we do is important, which…it's an amazing feeling, but also a really strange

605
00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:05,000
feeling, you know. So, yes, we keep our community together. We work hard to make sure that

606
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:06,000
no one feels left out or isolated, no matter what their experience is. And I think that that's really

607
00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:07,000
important.

608
00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:08,000
KB

609
00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:09,000
Having had an opportunity to speak with sex workers all over the region, I can tell you that

610
00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:10,000
organizers in Sweden and Norway are not optimistic. Public opinion against sex work is simply

611
00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:11,000
too entrenched.

612
00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:12,000
But there's a lot more reason for hope in Iceland. A part of it is because Iceland is such a small

613
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:13,000
country that small changes can have a big impact. And I can tell you that sex workers who have

614
00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:14,000
been organizing there are starting to get noticed. Before the last election, Red Umbrella Iceland

615
00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:15,000
reached out to all nine parties and heard a respectful response from five of them.

616
00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:16,000
Later this year, Old Pros is teaming up with Red Umbrella Iceland and other regional sex worker

617
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:17,000
advocates to host a one day conference called Sex Worker Stories and Public Policy. We’ll

618
00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:18,000
hosting that conference at the Nordic House in Reykjavik on November 1st, 2025.

619
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:19,000
I'll be performing my show, The Oldest Profession, and you'll also get to hear from many of the

620
00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:20,000
folks that you heard on this episode, including Iselin, the incredible photojournalist from Norway.

621
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:21,000
We’ll be hosting panels and conversations giving the people of Iceland, including policymakers,

622
00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:22,000
an opportunity to hear directly from sex workers about how these laws impact us, so we can

623
00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:23,000
explain why criminalizing our clients, our livelihood, and our landlords doesn't reduce violence or

624
00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:24,000
exploitation.

625
00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:25,000
I want to give the last word to Leo, who has done this work on three continents.

626
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:26,000
Leo

627
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:27,000
I don't need people to like sex work or sex workers. I don't need them to approve of what I do. I

628
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:28,000
don't need them to like my clients.

629
00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:29,000
I don't need them to be okay with it. What I need is for them to not use their personal prejudice

630
00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:30,000
to make my life harder.

631
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[Closing music]

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00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:32,000
01;03;21;06

633
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:33,000
I want to thank all of our guests for taking the time and sharing their story. I also want to thank

634
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:34,000
all of the sex worker advocacy groups that came together to pool their wisdom, resources, and

635
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:35,000
knowledge to make this episode possible. For more information about all of the folks that we

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spoke to and organizations that you can follow, go to our show notes.

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This season was produced and audio engineered by Bambi Rising, with original music from

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Adra Boo. Research support was provided by the Sex/Tech Lab at the New School. And I want

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to give a special shout out to our volunteer intern for helping us clean up our transcript–thank

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you so much, Maya Shook.

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The Oldest Profession podcast is one of many projects produced by Old Pros. And remember,

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we have a resource guide that goes with every episode. You can find out more at

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OldProsOnline.org.