WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:01.090 --> 00:00:06.700 Frank: You're listening to A Very Spatial Podcast, episode 742, July 24th, 2024. 00:00:07.260 --> 00:00:09.010 Jesse: Hello and welcome to A Very Spatial Podcast. 00:00:09.760 --> 00:00:10.459 I'm Jesse. 00:00:10.549 --> 00:00:11.180 Sue: I'm Sue. 00:00:11.510 --> 00:00:11.680 Barb: I'm 00:00:11.680 --> 00:00:12.080 Barb. 00:00:12.250 --> 00:00:13.250 Frank: And this is Frank. 00:00:13.389 --> 00:00:18.660 Jesse: And this is our 19th anniversary of doing, or releasing, 00:00:18.670 --> 00:00:19.780 I should say, the podcast. 00:00:19.809 --> 00:00:24.200 Because of course we, we did the podcast a little bit before we released the podcast. 00:00:24.300 --> 00:00:26.010 Sue: A little bit of practice, not much. 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:28.860 Jesse: Well, we recorded it and then the 00:00:28.860 --> 00:00:29.580 Frank: practice was, 00:00:29.595 --> 00:00:31.424 Sue: Yeah. 00:00:31.885 --> 00:00:34.995 Frank: So the real plane building while flying. 00:00:34.995 --> 00:00:40.125 Sue: So for 19 years, good golly, 00:00:41.035 --> 00:00:41.785 Jesse: Miss Molly. 00:00:42.125 --> 00:00:42.495 Sue: Yeah. 00:00:42.815 --> 00:00:43.375 That's a lot. 00:00:44.004 --> 00:00:44.735 Frank: I had you. 00:00:44.794 --> 00:00:45.565 It wasn't just me. 00:00:45.565 --> 00:00:47.664 It is. 00:00:47.664 --> 00:00:50.644 Since of course, most of us are around classrooms a lot. 00:00:50.695 --> 00:00:56.265 Our podcast continues to be older than a portion of our, our student body. 00:00:56.695 --> 00:00:56.945 Sue: Yes. 00:00:56.945 --> 00:00:58.975 It would be what a sophomore in college. 00:00:59.435 --> 00:01:02.595 Jesse: It'd be a rising freshmen into sophomore in a couple of weeks. 00:01:02.605 --> 00:01:03.005 Yeah. 00:01:03.765 --> 00:01:06.005 Frank: The official terms now, by the way, our second year, 00:01:08.045 --> 00:01:10.375 we've gone to one, two, three, four. 00:01:10.855 --> 00:01:11.935 We've, we've moved beyond. 00:01:11.935 --> 00:01:12.625 It's interesting. 00:01:12.635 --> 00:01:18.554 It is now first year, second year, junior, senior, I guess, to get away 00:01:18.554 --> 00:01:20.284 from the sophomore slump analogy. 00:01:20.844 --> 00:01:22.364 I guess I don't really know why, but I just, 00:01:22.365 --> 00:01:23.844 Sue: it's just a long word. 00:01:23.844 --> 00:01:24.314 I don't know. 00:01:24.414 --> 00:01:24.774 That's weird. 00:01:24.784 --> 00:01:25.294 Anyway. 00:01:26.134 --> 00:01:30.774 Frank: We are a second year college student or soon to be, or shouldn't be. 00:01:30.884 --> 00:01:31.234 Sue: Yeah. 00:01:32.594 --> 00:01:34.324 So one more year and it's 20 years. 00:01:34.704 --> 00:01:37.334 We'll have to, we'll have to do something for 20 years. 00:01:38.934 --> 00:01:39.184 Jesse: Maybe. 00:01:40.164 --> 00:01:40.744 That's how it goes. 00:01:41.184 --> 00:01:46.114 But this week we sit down with a person we haven't talked to in a long 00:01:46.114 --> 00:01:50.284 time who for a little while there, we were talking to almost annually. 00:01:50.784 --> 00:01:52.604 And that is Burns Sikowsky of. 00:01:54.634 --> 00:01:56.114 Sue: So it's yeah, it's great to catch up 00:01:58.664 --> 00:02:02.554 Jesse: on to the interview we are happy to be joined today by Bern 00:02:02.554 --> 00:02:05.484 Szukalski of What's that company called? 00:02:05.484 --> 00:02:07.234 The small one out in Redlands. 00:02:07.484 --> 00:02:08.814 Bern: Ursi, I think is what it is. 00:02:10.004 --> 00:02:11.134 Jesse: Thanks for joining us today. 00:02:11.624 --> 00:02:16.424 And just to kind of remind everyone, you know, since it has been almost 00:02:16.424 --> 00:02:19.564 a decade since we spoke with you and things are changing in 00:02:19.564 --> 00:02:21.494 your, your, in your day to day. 00:02:21.600 --> 00:02:22.800 What is it that you do? 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:24.980 Bern: You know, that's always been a good question. 00:02:25.700 --> 00:02:29.620 And I've been as, as, as you both know, and actually I'm going 00:02:29.620 --> 00:02:30.590 to correct you a little bit. 00:02:30.590 --> 00:02:32.100 I think it's been over a decade. 00:02:32.380 --> 00:02:36.730 I think the last time we spoke, as I recall, and you 00:02:36.730 --> 00:02:38.300 can correct me if I'm wrong. 00:02:38.705 --> 00:02:45.215 Quite often am these days was way back at I think in 2008 at at Berkeley, 00:02:45.595 --> 00:02:48.865 there was a digital globe seminar. 00:02:49.195 --> 00:02:53.079 And I remember I was part of the panel and spoke with Brian McClendon from the, the. 00:02:53.139 --> 00:02:58.049 Google and Pat Hogan from NASA WorldWin, I believe, and, you 00:02:58.049 --> 00:02:59.089 know, a bunch of other notables. 00:02:59.309 --> 00:03:03.029 And I think we sat down briefly after that and had a chat. 00:03:03.039 --> 00:03:06.079 I could be wrong, but it's been more than a decade, I think. 00:03:06.179 --> 00:03:06.389 Is that the 00:03:06.579 --> 00:03:07.749 Sue: Digital Earth Symposium? 00:03:07.879 --> 00:03:08.379 Bern: Yes. 00:03:09.149 --> 00:03:09.489 Sue: Yeah. 00:03:09.569 --> 00:03:10.099 Yeah. 00:03:10.139 --> 00:03:10.479 Bern: Yeah. 00:03:10.729 --> 00:03:10.949 How has 00:03:10.949 --> 00:03:11.789 Sue: it been that 00:03:11.789 --> 00:03:12.299 Bern: long? 00:03:12.299 --> 00:03:13.229 That was a long time ago. 00:03:13.559 --> 00:03:17.389 So that was the heady days of ArcGIS Explorer Desktop for me, 00:03:17.749 --> 00:03:21.299 which to this day is still I think one of my favorite products. 00:03:21.559 --> 00:03:24.529 And I was so fortunate to have been involved in that. 00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:30.099 And I still think kind of in its context for its day and for its time, it was 00:03:30.129 --> 00:03:34.989 definitely innovative and groundbreaking in terms of where it fit into the, 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:39.700 you know, the, geo landscape and the technology landscape and in terms 00:03:39.700 --> 00:03:41.070 of what it did and what it provided. 00:03:41.090 --> 00:03:41.860 It was a great product. 00:03:41.860 --> 00:03:42.540 I really enjoyed that. 00:03:42.640 --> 00:03:43.930 But anyway, I digress. 00:03:44.200 --> 00:03:45.960 So I think that was the last time we actually talked. 00:03:47.390 --> 00:03:48.640 Jesse: So what are you doing nowadays? 00:03:48.900 --> 00:03:54.120 Bern: So I'm doing exactly what I've been doing for a long time some years ago. 00:03:54.120 --> 00:03:57.370 And this is a very long story that we really don't need to detail. 00:03:57.370 --> 00:04:00.410 But you ESRI 38 years ago. 00:04:00.710 --> 00:04:03.110 Actually April 7th, 1986. 00:04:03.720 --> 00:04:05.670 And that was my arrival at Esri. 00:04:05.670 --> 00:04:10.100 As I think I've told you in the past I'm actually a failed biologist. 00:04:10.200 --> 00:04:14.230 So unlike everybody else on this discussion, and probably most people 00:04:14.440 --> 00:04:18.030 listening I never got a degree, never got an education in geography 00:04:18.030 --> 00:04:19.970 or GIS or anything even close. 00:04:19.970 --> 00:04:23.630 I was a bio major, chemistry minor worked for a consulting company 00:04:23.630 --> 00:04:25.100 on the East coast for a while. 00:04:25.350 --> 00:04:26.990 Ended up with a job offer. 00:04:27.195 --> 00:04:30.615 on the West Coast here to do research biology. 00:04:30.615 --> 00:04:34.955 Basically, I was a research assistant doing osteoporosis and vitamin D research. 00:04:35.295 --> 00:04:38.835 Long story short, after a few months, I realized two things very clearly. 00:04:39.085 --> 00:04:42.455 One was that I just love California, love the West Coast. 00:04:42.795 --> 00:04:45.655 And I think it was the geography that really captivated me. 00:04:46.065 --> 00:04:49.675 And I remember my boss to be, he, he started, he, he took me 00:04:49.675 --> 00:04:51.515 up on the Palm Springs tramway. 00:04:51.855 --> 00:04:56.675 And we went up to the top of the tram, which was 7, 000, 7, 200 feet, I think. 00:04:57.145 --> 00:05:00.405 And it's like, Oh my gosh, I've never been that high in the United States. 00:05:00.405 --> 00:05:01.025 This is amazing. 00:05:01.355 --> 00:05:03.575 And where I used to go skiing in Pennsylvania. 00:05:03.845 --> 00:05:07.165 We went to the Pocono Mountains, which rose A magnificent 00:05:07.255 --> 00:05:08.905 500 feet above sea level. 00:05:08.915 --> 00:05:12.045 So it was quite the juxtaposition and it was perfect weather 00:05:12.045 --> 00:05:13.025 here in Southern California. 00:05:13.025 --> 00:05:15.985 Green valleys, snow capped mountains, absolutely amazing. 00:05:16.175 --> 00:05:20.575 The next day he took me to the beach in La Jolla and I'm used to 00:05:20.575 --> 00:05:22.285 like Atlantic City beaches, right? 00:05:22.885 --> 00:05:26.115 200 yards worth of sand, everything flat, and the boardwalk. 00:05:26.425 --> 00:05:28.555 And I was totally blown away. 00:05:28.755 --> 00:05:31.445 I think the day after that he took me to Joshua Tree and I was sold. 00:05:31.745 --> 00:05:33.295 So all right, I'm moving to California. 00:05:33.685 --> 00:05:36.865 And still at that time I thought, eh, I'll, you know, be out here 00:05:36.865 --> 00:05:39.395 for a year, maybe two, then I'm moving back to Pennsylvania. 00:05:39.875 --> 00:05:43.725 But after a while, I realized, A, I'm not moving back to Pennsylvania. 00:05:44.035 --> 00:05:48.875 And B, I really, really, really disliked basic research biology. 00:05:48.885 --> 00:05:53.475 You know, the work was very tedious and I think in some ways I'm maybe ADHD and 00:05:53.475 --> 00:05:55.645 need to do a gazillion things at once. 00:05:55.945 --> 00:05:56.735 So here I was. 00:05:56.950 --> 00:05:58.300 Total career meltdown. 00:05:58.300 --> 00:05:58.900 What do I do? 00:05:59.300 --> 00:06:00.670 I want to stay in California. 00:06:00.960 --> 00:06:03.450 I had to think about, well, what is it that I really like? 00:06:03.470 --> 00:06:05.410 What is it that I really would want to do? 00:06:05.410 --> 00:06:08.650 And I've always, always, always had a fascination with maps. 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:12.180 And that fascination began eons ago. 00:06:12.370 --> 00:06:16.220 I heard in one of your podcasts, you were talking about how, how How 00:06:16.220 --> 00:06:19.260 the younger peeps these days don't really remember what a paper map 00:06:19.500 --> 00:06:21.460 is like and how, how to use one. 00:06:21.710 --> 00:06:24.030 Well, I remember going into the local sporting goods store and 00:06:24.030 --> 00:06:27.860 buying the USGS quad sheets and we'd go out and hike around. 00:06:27.860 --> 00:06:31.960 And, you know, I was always fascinated by how I could look at this map and 00:06:31.960 --> 00:06:33.270 I could follow the contour lines. 00:06:33.270 --> 00:06:35.310 And I knew kind of what was over the next hill. 00:06:35.830 --> 00:06:38.090 So anyway, maps have always fascinated me. 00:06:38.320 --> 00:06:40.800 When I did environmental work, I. 00:06:40.945 --> 00:06:43.375 processed actually the company was kind of unique. 00:06:43.385 --> 00:06:47.395 It was a bunch of folks that worked in petroleum geophysics. 00:06:47.695 --> 00:06:50.945 And we processed data that was flown through aerial surveys at 00:06:50.945 --> 00:06:55.245 the time to look for oil potential throughout the world, Costa Rica, 00:06:55.475 --> 00:06:57.325 Alaska, North Slope, Philippines. 00:06:57.605 --> 00:06:59.085 And I processed that data. 00:06:59.595 --> 00:07:02.855 On a what was it was a data general mini computer. 00:07:03.195 --> 00:07:06.395 So I got these big reels of tape sent to me and I had to process it. 00:07:06.395 --> 00:07:09.775 And I, you know, I had to make graphs and, you know, would kind of show where 00:07:09.775 --> 00:07:13.884 the alarm anomalies were along the flight lines, and then a bunch of PHD 00:07:13.885 --> 00:07:18.105 geophysicists would stand around the table and look at what I printed out. 00:07:18.105 --> 00:07:19.315 And they'd be smoking their pipes. 00:07:19.315 --> 00:07:19.735 They'd be like, 00:07:20.295 --> 00:07:21.985 Frank: yeah, oil, oil over here 00:07:22.355 --> 00:07:22.945 Bern: kind of thing. 00:07:23.015 --> 00:07:26.565 It was a really fun, but anyway, I loved working with computers. 00:07:26.565 --> 00:07:31.625 I bought my first computer shortly thereafter, a TRS 80, trash 80, the 00:07:31.625 --> 00:07:33.405 old you know, trash 80 and I started. 00:07:33.690 --> 00:07:35.120 programming, visual basic programming. 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:35.850 I just love that. 00:07:36.320 --> 00:07:38.920 So anyway, career meltdown, what do I like to do? 00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:39.600 It's maps. 00:07:39.630 --> 00:07:42.330 It would be great if I could do environmental work, if I could 00:07:42.340 --> 00:07:46.400 use computers all the better and, but I don't know where to go. 00:07:46.900 --> 00:07:50.730 Esri was about a hundred people at the time and where the cafe is 00:07:50.730 --> 00:07:54.360 today that I'm looking at from my office was the Montessori school. 00:07:54.890 --> 00:07:58.540 And one of the people I worked with in the research lab, his son 00:07:58.540 --> 00:08:01.750 went to the Montessori school and he says, Hey, you should check out 00:08:01.750 --> 00:08:04.900 that environmental mapping research. 00:08:04.900 --> 00:08:07.920 I don't know, something company says my son had a tour of it. 00:08:07.930 --> 00:08:11.620 They use computers and they do environmental stuff and they make maps. 00:08:11.620 --> 00:08:12.590 And I thought, great. 00:08:12.980 --> 00:08:15.525 And then, You know, I just happened to run into somebody 00:08:15.525 --> 00:08:17.005 at the racket club I belong to. 00:08:17.475 --> 00:08:20.345 And you know, I said, she, she just moved from the Northeast 00:08:20.355 --> 00:08:21.725 to be a consultant at Esri. 00:08:22.145 --> 00:08:23.585 And I said, Hey, I'll take you out to lunch. 00:08:23.585 --> 00:08:26.695 If you can get me in the door, introduce me to some people. 00:08:26.845 --> 00:08:27.775 So she, she did. 00:08:28.075 --> 00:08:30.125 And, you know, that kind of started my journey. 00:08:30.125 --> 00:08:31.585 I was at the right place at the right time. 00:08:31.885 --> 00:08:37.325 Esri was hiring at the time for a big project called the rail garrison project, 00:08:37.325 --> 00:08:41.215 where we had to automate the rail network for the U S and I just showed up at the 00:08:41.215 --> 00:08:45.435 door and I said, I'm not quite sure what you guys do, but I'm really interested. 00:08:45.705 --> 00:08:51.525 So long story short, I had the usual Esri interview wearing my finest polyester non 00:08:51.535 --> 00:08:56.445 organic clothing at the time and a clip on tie sweating out on the back patio 00:08:56.445 --> 00:08:58.595 being interviewed by a dozen people. 00:08:58.595 --> 00:09:02.765 And lo and behold, I got a job offer and the rest is history, so 00:09:03.025 --> 00:09:04.435 that's I've always sort of worked. 00:09:04.585 --> 00:09:05.995 in kind of different areas. 00:09:06.005 --> 00:09:08.955 You know, back then we didn't have titles, didn't really have positions. 00:09:09.195 --> 00:09:11.505 Everybody's pulling oars on the ESRI boat. 00:09:11.845 --> 00:09:13.075 And we just did things. 00:09:13.075 --> 00:09:16.905 I became involved real quickly with a group called, we used to call 00:09:16.905 --> 00:09:20.205 it the Benchmarks Team, now called the Applications Prototype Lab. 00:09:20.205 --> 00:09:25.005 And my boss at the time, who's now semi retired, Hugh Keegan, the best best boss, 00:09:25.035 --> 00:09:26.675 I should say, best manager I ever had. 00:09:27.140 --> 00:09:30.310 My entire life, great guy, just had him over for a barbecue 00:09:30.310 --> 00:09:31.560 the other, last weekend. 00:09:31.680 --> 00:09:33.300 But anyway we just did everything. 00:09:33.320 --> 00:09:38.060 And I, over the years, as, as we became a little more structured, I managed to 00:09:38.070 --> 00:09:42.730 be able to craft a unique position for myself, kind of put it on Jack Spindle. 00:09:42.730 --> 00:09:44.310 And I said, Jack, this is what I want to do. 00:09:44.945 --> 00:09:46.235 Basically, Jack says, go do it. 00:09:46.235 --> 00:09:50.505 And that's sort of been my kind of self made position. 00:09:50.555 --> 00:09:53.285 It's a tech evangelist because that's what I did. 00:09:53.285 --> 00:09:57.015 I evangelize Esri technology and help people be successful with it. 00:09:57.325 --> 00:10:01.395 I have to complete that, that circle of life there, as it were, as I, 00:10:01.635 --> 00:10:04.055 I totally know where the warts are and where the problems are. 00:10:04.345 --> 00:10:07.445 I love interacting with users and not only helping them, but also 00:10:07.445 --> 00:10:10.100 interacting Gaining understanding about where they're having issues. 00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:13.840 And then I love taking that back to the development teams and working 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:15.070 to get those things ironed out. 00:10:15.070 --> 00:10:18.890 And I think that's why I ended up being a product manager for so many years at Esri. 00:10:19.750 --> 00:10:23.370 But anyway, it's a kind of a unique position that I kind of grew on my own. 00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:27.420 I actually styled it after, guy Kawasaki, who was the 00:10:27.420 --> 00:10:29.220 first tech evangelist at Apple. 00:10:29.220 --> 00:10:32.370 And, you know, now it's a well established, well entrenched position. 00:10:32.370 --> 00:10:35.650 So I went online, looked at all these job descriptions and requirements, 00:10:35.650 --> 00:10:37.880 and I thought, Hey I, I do that. 00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:38.950 Yeah, I do that. 00:10:39.180 --> 00:10:42.090 I don't do that, but I probably should, but I just kind of 00:10:42.090 --> 00:10:44.060 tailored this thing and made it so. 00:10:44.060 --> 00:10:46.030 So that's what I continue to do. 00:10:46.030 --> 00:10:49.460 Although recently I've sort of decided to downshift and 00:10:49.460 --> 00:10:51.200 now do that part time at Esri. 00:10:54.140 --> 00:10:57.940 Frank: So I'm curious, what are you evangelizing now? 00:10:58.020 --> 00:11:00.760 What is your latest now that you're kind of downshifting? 00:11:00.770 --> 00:11:03.060 What is, what is it that you're passionate in your heart? 00:11:03.850 --> 00:11:06.890 Bern: You know, it's, it's still basically the same things I've 00:11:06.890 --> 00:11:08.740 been doing for over a decade. 00:11:09.060 --> 00:11:13.440 So I was lucky enough to be, I actually, I was part of the ArcView 2. 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:14.140 0 team. 00:11:14.530 --> 00:11:19.250 And again, we're kind of taking a trip down memory lane and I'm really showing 00:11:19.250 --> 00:11:22.080 my geezer qualities here, but ArcView 1. 00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:26.165 0 was A very innovative product for its time and was built on 00:11:26.165 --> 00:11:28.015 top of neuron data technology. 00:11:28.405 --> 00:11:32.845 And I remember Jack described it once as limited, but interesting, which 00:11:32.845 --> 00:11:34.665 meant that, hey, it had potential. 00:11:35.015 --> 00:11:38.585 The team basically took off to Montague, Massachusetts and buried 00:11:38.585 --> 00:11:40.515 themselves for a couple of years. 00:11:40.815 --> 00:11:43.865 And they used to reside in this place called the book mill. 00:11:44.360 --> 00:11:48.140 And the book mill was a great little bookstore and its motto was I think books 00:11:48.160 --> 00:11:50.050 you don't need in a place you can't find. 00:11:50.420 --> 00:11:54.059 And out of that little skunk works grew ArcView 2. 00:11:54.060 --> 00:11:56.460 0, which was an absolutely amazing product. 00:11:56.760 --> 00:12:00.019 It was, I think at the time it was maybe 1, 500. 00:12:00.020 --> 00:12:04.060 It probably did 85 to 90 percent of what most people wanted to do. 00:12:04.440 --> 00:12:08.170 A good friend of mine, Jim Tenbrink, he was involved in implementing Avenue, 00:12:08.180 --> 00:12:12.260 which was this really great object oriented scripting language that. 00:12:12.570 --> 00:12:16.510 Allowed developers to extend build add ins for ArcView. 00:12:16.520 --> 00:12:20.060 And I sort of became the evangelist for Avenue at the time. 00:12:20.420 --> 00:12:22.210 And that was, that was just a great experience. 00:12:22.210 --> 00:12:25.420 And ArcView was just an amazing, amazing product. 00:12:25.710 --> 00:12:30.020 Along the way, some of the key members of the team said, Hey, you know, Microsoft 00:12:30.020 --> 00:12:33.520 has just come out with this thing called Visual Basic, and you can build 00:12:33.520 --> 00:12:37.640 these little components that people can use to build apps in Visual Basic, 00:12:37.650 --> 00:12:39.250 we should make a mapping component. 00:12:39.650 --> 00:12:43.680 And I remember it was Jeff Jackson Matt McGrath and I, we 00:12:43.680 --> 00:12:45.340 were all on the ArcView team. 00:12:45.380 --> 00:12:47.350 And you know, Jeff was the lead programmer. 00:12:47.350 --> 00:12:51.220 Matt was the, I guess the product engineer, solution engineer, 00:12:51.220 --> 00:12:52.200 whatever for the product. 00:12:52.450 --> 00:12:55.370 I got the short straw, so I got to be the product manager. 00:12:55.630 --> 00:12:59.930 And we made a proposal to Jack and Clint and Scott Morehouse 00:12:59.930 --> 00:13:02.905 at the time said, look, this is what we're we would like to do. 00:13:02.935 --> 00:13:05.755 And we think that there's a place for this in the market. 00:13:05.775 --> 00:13:09.055 We'd like to build mapping components for visual basic 00:13:09.055 --> 00:13:10.635 developers from Microsoft platform. 00:13:10.635 --> 00:13:14.155 So that began the saga of map objects, which was a very, 00:13:14.515 --> 00:13:15.875 very, very fun, fun ride. 00:13:15.875 --> 00:13:19.785 And then from there, I moved on to let's see, what was it after that arch IMS? 00:13:20.345 --> 00:13:22.745 And after that was yeah, arc. 00:13:23.575 --> 00:13:25.085 ArcGIS Explorer desktop. 00:13:25.425 --> 00:13:29.885 And then that was sort of back in the fledgling days of internet mapping in 00:13:29.885 --> 00:13:35.805 general, little known fact is that Mo, MapObjects, as we used to call it Mo IMS 00:13:35.815 --> 00:13:39.165 was the first internet product from Esri. 00:13:39.165 --> 00:13:44.070 It actually, Beat ArcView IMS, that was internet map server, beat 00:13:44.070 --> 00:13:45.970 ArcView IMS by about three months. 00:13:45.990 --> 00:13:48.750 It was like a big competition between the teams. 00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:51.200 And you know, that was very transactional, right? 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:54.330 Send the request, you know, the app running in the backend does 00:13:54.330 --> 00:13:57.560 something, makes map, sends you the map, actually little pieces 00:13:57.560 --> 00:13:58.910 of the map, which got assembled. 00:13:58.920 --> 00:14:02.480 And, you know, it was a very transactional thing, not very quick and not very 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:04.960 capable in terms of other capabilities. 00:14:05.325 --> 00:14:09.815 Out of those limitations grew a need from some of our customers to do 00:14:09.815 --> 00:14:10.885 something a little bit different. 00:14:10.885 --> 00:14:15.505 So out of our professional services department at the time, I think we grew 00:14:15.505 --> 00:14:17.995 something called geographic data server. 00:14:18.415 --> 00:14:25.175 And that was our solution for customers where Mo IMS and Arcview didn't cut it 00:14:25.175 --> 00:14:27.215 for them, just couldn't, couldn't do it. 00:14:27.215 --> 00:14:29.075 Lack of performance, lack of capabilities. 00:14:29.365 --> 00:14:36.165 And GDS, Geographic Data Server, actually spawned ArcIMS, which was released based 00:14:36.165 --> 00:14:39.555 upon that, that internal GDS project. 00:14:39.805 --> 00:14:42.375 And we released it, first version was 3. 00:14:42.375 --> 00:14:42.394 0. 00:14:42.765 --> 00:14:45.385 And I kind of moved on was product manager for that. 00:14:45.555 --> 00:14:49.535 This was also the fledgling days of what became known as, well, now the 00:14:49.535 --> 00:14:53.715 living Atlas actually the geography network kind of grew up out of that. 00:14:53.715 --> 00:14:58.115 It was like, Hey, we've got these service capabilities, these abilities to. 00:14:58.330 --> 00:15:00.070 You know, distribute maps over the internet. 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:04.710 Let's make a repository, the Geography Network, where people can store their 00:15:04.710 --> 00:15:08.800 maps, their data for download, their register, their services, and then 00:15:09.370 --> 00:15:12.850 they'll be able to use them and be able to take advantage of them without 00:15:12.860 --> 00:15:14.660 having to do all this hunting around. 00:15:14.660 --> 00:15:17.110 You have to remember that I grew up back in the days where when you 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:20.890 started a project, you downloaded the digital line graph from the USGS 00:15:21.210 --> 00:15:25.210 and you had to process that right in ArcInfo or, you know, everything, 00:15:25.210 --> 00:15:30.965 you that you needed had to be built, digitized, translated, all that stuff. 00:15:30.965 --> 00:15:34.015 And this is well before there was a service based architecture available. 00:15:34.225 --> 00:15:38.615 Anyway that kind of started off the geography network, which ended up 00:15:38.635 --> 00:15:43.885 morphing into what we can think of as the living Atlas and also ArcGIS Online. 00:15:44.175 --> 00:15:48.385 So little known fact was when ArcGIS Online was first introduced, it 00:15:48.385 --> 00:15:50.910 didn't have a map mapping capability. 00:15:50.920 --> 00:15:53.910 It was more like a deluxe geography network. 00:15:53.910 --> 00:15:57.080 And then all of a sudden, I remember a meeting where it's like, Hey, you know, 00:15:57.080 --> 00:15:58.440 we should make a little viewer for this. 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:02.880 I remember there's, we had Arc, Arc Explorer was kind of like a little 00:16:02.880 --> 00:16:06.130 front end for that, that you could use to make maps really quickly. 00:16:06.130 --> 00:16:10.420 And then remember there was one team that proposed a JavaScript map viewer 00:16:10.500 --> 00:16:14.130 and another team said, Oh no, we're going to adopt Microsoft Silverlight. 00:16:14.140 --> 00:16:14.700 And we're going to. 00:16:14.715 --> 00:16:17.895 build ARC Explorer web is what it was called at the time. 00:16:18.235 --> 00:16:19.505 And you know, it's kind of interesting. 00:16:19.505 --> 00:16:22.925 JavaScript was pretty new and not that great at the time. 00:16:23.225 --> 00:16:26.245 Silverlight was a little bit more advanced shall we say, and 00:16:26.245 --> 00:16:28.215 also had Microsoft behind it. 00:16:28.215 --> 00:16:30.505 But then of course, Microsoft backed away from it. 00:16:30.565 --> 00:16:31.455 That was the end of that. 00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:34.590 JavaScript is where it's at today and, and life goes on. 00:16:34.590 --> 00:16:37.620 So at any rate, just to circle back to your question in 00:16:37.620 --> 00:16:38.760 a long and roundabout way. 00:16:38.980 --> 00:16:42.840 I've always been involved sort of in that kind of internet mapping space and 00:16:42.850 --> 00:16:47.190 involved in the early days of ArcGIS online and LivingAtlas and things 00:16:47.190 --> 00:16:48.910 like that, and currently my focus. 00:16:49.170 --> 00:16:53.520 I focus pretty much on ArcGIS Online and also Living Atlas. 00:16:53.870 --> 00:16:58.370 Rarely do I really plunge into the deep end of the pool with ArcGIS Pro anymore. 00:16:58.380 --> 00:17:00.140 I appreciate your discussion. 00:17:00.140 --> 00:17:04.060 I caught one of your podcasts where you're talking about, you know, the ArcMap 00:17:04.070 --> 00:17:08.740 migration and, you know, how many people are still using ArcMap and, you know, what 00:17:08.740 --> 00:17:10.840 does that mean and how technology has to. 00:17:11.190 --> 00:17:12.740 Move forward and things like that. 00:17:12.740 --> 00:17:15.330 I thought that was an interesting discussion that you had. 00:17:15.340 --> 00:17:19.350 But yeah, so I'm still involved with very much the same products 00:17:19.350 --> 00:17:23.350 and evangelizing has actually changed quite a bit over the years. 00:17:23.560 --> 00:17:27.830 And I think COVID marked, um, a very dramatic change in, 00:17:28.100 --> 00:17:29.310 in how we all work, right? 00:17:29.520 --> 00:17:34.030 All of a sudden we're stuck inside our dens and it's like, okay, I'm not 00:17:34.030 --> 00:17:37.720 traveling around going to conferences and speaking at these conferences. 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:40.580 I'm not doing workshops, visiting customers anymore. 00:17:40.580 --> 00:17:41.900 I'm kind of sequestered now. 00:17:42.190 --> 00:17:47.345 And I think that fundamentally changed the way that I worked and certainly 00:17:47.605 --> 00:17:50.585 the way that Esri works, I think there's, and of course, everybody 00:17:50.585 --> 00:17:53.725 else, education, everything, it fundamentally changed all that. 00:17:53.725 --> 00:17:57.205 And I think in some ways, we're never going to go back to the way things 00:17:57.205 --> 00:18:00.835 were, which is not necessarily a bad thing, because I think what we've done. 00:18:00.935 --> 00:18:05.105 done is learn to adapt and learn to leverage where we are 00:18:05.405 --> 00:18:06.755 in the best way as possible. 00:18:06.755 --> 00:18:10.955 We now live in this, I think, a great marriage of virtual and, 00:18:11.175 --> 00:18:12.415 you know, in person meetings. 00:18:12.715 --> 00:18:15.745 I still come in the office like three days a week, sometimes four. 00:18:16.135 --> 00:18:19.695 I don't spend near as much time as I used to here, but I, I do enjoy 00:18:20.685 --> 00:18:22.645 mingling with people, meeting visitors. 00:18:22.685 --> 00:18:26.815 I just hosted Some visitors from my Hino city, which is Redlands sister 00:18:26.815 --> 00:18:29.475 city and in the greater Tokyo area. 00:18:29.475 --> 00:18:33.255 And I had the opportunity to visit with them when I was keynoting a 00:18:33.255 --> 00:18:34.635 conference over there many years ago. 00:18:34.925 --> 00:18:37.745 But anyway, so I, I got to return the favor and, and give them 00:18:37.745 --> 00:18:40.515 a little tour of campus here and take them around and stuff. 00:18:40.515 --> 00:18:41.295 So that was really great. 00:18:41.305 --> 00:18:45.035 So I still do all those kinds of things, but it's just, and maybe 00:18:45.035 --> 00:18:46.255 a little bit different context. 00:18:46.255 --> 00:18:49.955 And of course, now with other priorities in my life maybe 00:18:49.955 --> 00:18:51.285 ahead of Esri priorities now. 00:18:52.105 --> 00:18:55.055 Sue: So I was just thinking, listening, and of course we're 00:18:55.055 --> 00:18:57.885 here celebrating 19 years of the podcast, who would have thought? 00:18:58.285 --> 00:19:00.525 But it kind of, first of all, takes me back, right? 00:19:00.525 --> 00:19:02.815 I, I made my entrée at ArcG or ArcView 3. 00:19:02.815 --> 00:19:08.875 2, so that was my, my entrée, and more so with ArcObjects than MapObjects, 00:19:08.885 --> 00:19:13.145 but did some of that, but what I'm curious about I think with, with 00:19:13.365 --> 00:19:16.615 just so many things going on, right? 00:19:16.615 --> 00:19:19.005 So many trends in geospatial, so many things that were happening. 00:19:19.335 --> 00:19:23.035 My, I was thinking that at the time of the ArcGIS online, the ArcGIS 00:19:23.045 --> 00:19:24.145 online with the viewer and everything. 00:19:24.145 --> 00:19:26.895 And I can remember everybody kind of at the launch thing and, and talking 00:19:26.895 --> 00:19:28.205 with David McGuire and others, right? 00:19:28.595 --> 00:19:30.945 It was like, okay, this is interesting kind of as a side thing. 00:19:31.255 --> 00:19:33.135 And then, you know, who would have thought, you know this 00:19:33.135 --> 00:19:33.945 many years later, right? 00:19:33.945 --> 00:19:35.275 What ArcGIS Online would become. 00:19:35.475 --> 00:19:38.805 So what I'm curious about, if you think back, was there, is there anything, right, 00:19:38.985 --> 00:19:42.975 that you were kind of surprised by how well it took off, whatever that might be, 00:19:42.975 --> 00:19:46.115 or conversely something where you got, you were convinced this is going to be the 00:19:46.115 --> 00:19:49.365 next thing and the GIS community is going to embrace it and it just didn't happen. 00:19:49.365 --> 00:19:52.325 So I wonder if there was anything like that, that's, that stands out for you. 00:19:52.645 --> 00:19:56.715 Bern: So You know, it's, I've seen a lot of products kind of come and go. 00:19:57.085 --> 00:19:59.965 I think some went a little early, some probably shouldn't 00:19:59.965 --> 00:20:01.005 have come in the first place. 00:20:01.305 --> 00:20:03.885 We've, we've had some some fails, I guess. 00:20:04.075 --> 00:20:11.259 But for the most part, Esri isn't so much cutting edge as we adopt and leverage the. 00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:18.190 technology to expand GIS capabilities as that becomes apparent that 00:20:18.190 --> 00:20:19.650 that's a wise thing to do. 00:20:20.020 --> 00:20:23.870 So I think a lot of GIS users appreciate that safe spot. 00:20:24.180 --> 00:20:27.840 You don't want to be on the cutting bleeding edge necessarily. 00:20:28.020 --> 00:20:32.525 You want to be on the edge of innovation, but yet there's that little line 00:20:32.525 --> 00:20:37.095 between where does innovation make sense and where is innovation risky? 00:20:37.455 --> 00:20:42.005 And I think Esri's managed somehow, I think just because of being 00:20:42.425 --> 00:20:44.605 maybe rooted in practicality. 00:20:44.605 --> 00:20:49.425 And that's certainly driven by our users demands and, and what our users do. 00:20:49.645 --> 00:20:52.075 I think you know, we haven't necessarily. 00:20:52.335 --> 00:20:53.235 broken the glass. 00:20:53.235 --> 00:20:54.625 We've sort of approached the glass. 00:20:54.925 --> 00:20:58.785 But we've built some pretty interesting products, but they've all evolved. 00:20:59.025 --> 00:21:01.765 I remember back in the days when I started evangelizing about web 00:21:01.775 --> 00:21:03.685 GIS, when that was the big thing. 00:21:04.155 --> 00:21:05.955 And I remember people were like stunned. 00:21:05.955 --> 00:21:07.955 It was like, wow, this is where this come from. 00:21:07.955 --> 00:21:10.945 I use arc map and, you know, used to use arc info. 00:21:10.945 --> 00:21:12.255 What's web GIS. 00:21:12.255 --> 00:21:14.825 And you want me to put my data in the cloud? 00:21:14.825 --> 00:21:15.855 Like I don't get that, you know? 00:21:16.075 --> 00:21:16.855 And it was like this. 00:21:17.550 --> 00:21:18.990 revolutionary thing. 00:21:18.990 --> 00:21:24.070 But actually when you look back to it, it wasn't revolutionary, it was evolutionary. 00:21:24.310 --> 00:21:28.340 And I remember I did a little retrospective presentation for 00:21:28.340 --> 00:21:30.450 a user group meeting in Texas. 00:21:30.890 --> 00:21:35.180 And I actually dug up some of Jack's old slides, the old 35 millimeter 00:21:35.460 --> 00:21:36.870 slides everywhere Jack went. 00:21:36.870 --> 00:21:40.475 He used to carry around his little Carousel of slides. 00:21:40.475 --> 00:21:42.335 And that's how he did his presentation. 00:21:42.335 --> 00:21:47.175 I actually jotted down a couple of things here that I saw from that because I, 00:21:47.445 --> 00:21:53.195 I thought it was so interesting, but you know, even back when Esri was just 00:21:53.195 --> 00:21:59.295 beginning Jack's vision for the technology was very similar to what it is today. 00:21:59.605 --> 00:22:02.585 And I can listen to what he just spoke about at the user 00:22:02.585 --> 00:22:04.405 conference just last week. 00:22:04.615 --> 00:22:09.115 And it actually echoes a lot of his early messages. 00:22:09.115 --> 00:22:12.515 He always, you know, would talk about GIS becoming more pervasive 00:22:12.515 --> 00:22:17.515 or GIS making it possible for, for anyone and everyone anywhere to 00:22:17.515 --> 00:22:19.295 experience it and things like that. 00:22:19.655 --> 00:22:23.935 So I think in some ways, there's always been that forward looking vision, 00:22:23.935 --> 00:22:27.795 certainly from Jack and certainly from some of the key members of development 00:22:27.795 --> 00:22:29.205 teams, that forward looking vision. 00:22:29.485 --> 00:22:33.445 And what's happened is underneath all of that, the technology 00:22:33.455 --> 00:22:35.175 is what has supported us. 00:22:36.285 --> 00:22:36.615 And. 00:22:37.165 --> 00:22:40.655 evolved the technology that Esri produces into what it is today. 00:22:41.075 --> 00:22:43.665 The one thing I can say for sure though, is it used to be 00:22:43.755 --> 00:22:44.975 quite a lot simpler, right? 00:22:45.215 --> 00:22:49.035 You sat down in front of your Hazeltine terminal and you, at the arc prompt, 00:22:49.035 --> 00:22:53.725 you typed a clean hashtag, hashtag, hashtag, you know, fuzzy tolerance, done. 00:22:54.055 --> 00:23:00.175 And I think what's kind of happened is Esri used to be a software company. 00:23:00.175 --> 00:23:02.165 I guess you could, you could say that we were actually one of the 00:23:02.165 --> 00:23:03.915 very early software companies. 00:23:03.935 --> 00:23:04.475 You know, we. 00:23:04.955 --> 00:23:08.615 Esri was founded before Microsoft was, before Apple, before, you know, before the 00:23:08.615 --> 00:23:11.355 internet was developed, before cell phone. 00:23:11.355 --> 00:23:12.415 I mean, it's just amazing. 00:23:12.865 --> 00:23:16.015 While we were, I think at one point in time, a software company and 00:23:16.025 --> 00:23:20.785 we sold software products, I think what's fundamentally happened and 00:23:20.785 --> 00:23:24.920 what has, been driven by technology and certainly our user needs. 00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:29.730 I mean, GIS evolves with technologies and what our users expectations 00:23:29.770 --> 00:23:34.610 are, what they want out of a system or the challenges that they face. 00:23:34.930 --> 00:23:40.280 We now actually have a very large, very deep and very wide system. 00:23:40.780 --> 00:23:45.779 And it used to be You know, you bought ArcInfo or ArcMap and 00:23:45.780 --> 00:23:46.940 you use pretty much all of it. 00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:53.880 Nowadays, what people do is they take the platform and they implement bits 00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:59.400 and pieces of it to build the systems that they use to do their work. 00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:02.910 So I think users today don't really experience. 00:24:03.280 --> 00:24:04.500 software from Esri. 00:24:04.860 --> 00:24:07.510 They don't really experience the entire platform. 00:24:07.830 --> 00:24:14.250 They experience a system that they've crafted by pulling together bits and 00:24:14.250 --> 00:24:17.700 pieces of that platform to create the solution that they need, right? 00:24:17.700 --> 00:24:21.850 So maybe it's a parcel management system or utility outage system 00:24:21.850 --> 00:24:23.960 or a forestry management system. 00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:29.005 Those are all built on the platform, but they're assembled using You 00:24:29.005 --> 00:24:32.735 know, different pieces, different capabilities, and that's, I 00:24:32.735 --> 00:24:34.345 think, the way we use GIS setting. 00:24:34.345 --> 00:24:36.555 It's quite different than the way things used to be. 00:24:37.415 --> 00:24:40.035 Barb: So, one of the threads when I was hearing you go through your 00:24:40.035 --> 00:24:43.775 personal history and the history of the technology isn't about the 00:24:43.775 --> 00:24:48.845 technology, but it's something that I've noticed people respond to in terms 00:24:48.845 --> 00:24:53.555 of geospatial, which is the creativity and adaptability that you bring. 00:24:53.555 --> 00:24:55.155 And that that's that's part of it. 00:24:55.155 --> 00:24:57.365 That's something that's that's underpinned and everything. 00:24:57.635 --> 00:25:00.655 In there, you might not, you probably know this and not saying 00:25:00.655 --> 00:25:01.575 anything new, but yes, right. 00:25:01.575 --> 00:25:05.885 I also did the 1 of the 1st MOOCs outreach with massive education. 00:25:06.285 --> 00:25:10.815 So, is that something that you, when you look on all the impact that you've 00:25:10.815 --> 00:25:14.045 had, because I'm trying to even imagine all the people and what they've done. 00:25:14.435 --> 00:25:18.075 Do you do you think about the, the impact on the society as a whole? 00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:23.150 Bern: Well, let's just say I'm not that great or deep a thinker, I'm pretty, 00:25:23.290 --> 00:25:24.960 remember I'm a failed biologist, right? 00:25:25.250 --> 00:25:29.310 So, I kind of look at things from the ground up, so I've always had 00:25:29.310 --> 00:25:32.850 an empathy, I guess one could say, for people that are trying to figure 00:25:32.850 --> 00:25:36.570 out GIS, and inherently I think it's gotten a little more complicated. 00:25:37.060 --> 00:25:41.660 But for larger organizations, those complications are perhaps a bit easier to 00:25:41.660 --> 00:25:43.880 overcome than for smaller organizations. 00:25:44.170 --> 00:25:48.940 And my, I don't know, I just have a soft spot in my heart for people that still 00:25:48.940 --> 00:25:53.900 think enterprise is a car rental agency rather than ArcGIS Enterprise, which is 00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:56.010 what most people implement these days. 00:25:56.310 --> 00:25:57.890 So it's really interesting. 00:25:57.900 --> 00:26:01.310 Like I've always, just because I think I had this love of maps that have 00:26:01.310 --> 00:26:03.280 always been readily available to me. 00:26:04.415 --> 00:26:06.455 You know, GIS is for GIS people. 00:26:06.455 --> 00:26:11.435 And in fact, I think you could even say that today Esri technology 00:26:11.455 --> 00:26:13.345 is for GIS organizations. 00:26:13.365 --> 00:26:15.545 It's not necessarily for individuals. 00:26:15.545 --> 00:26:19.145 And part of what makes me say that is I've had some interactions with some 00:26:19.405 --> 00:26:24.735 very small nonprofits recently, and even some just geo interested people that 00:26:24.735 --> 00:26:28.875 are currently using, you know, Google earth and KML and, you know, those 00:26:29.055 --> 00:26:30.665 very simple little building blocks. 00:26:31.115 --> 00:26:33.265 I think what happens with some. 00:26:33.530 --> 00:26:37.080 People, and it's interesting to see or to hear more about how you might 00:26:37.080 --> 00:26:43.230 deal with this as educators is when you buy into, shall we say, invest 00:26:43.230 --> 00:26:52.140 in, when you capitalize on the ArcGIS platform, inherently, it also has 00:26:52.140 --> 00:26:57.005 components of it That are not something you learn a whole lot about in school. 00:26:57.405 --> 00:27:00.355 So one of the nonprofits I was working with, they were really 00:27:00.355 --> 00:27:02.275 interested in story maps, right? 00:27:02.295 --> 00:27:04.795 So they were captivated by the story maps. 00:27:04.825 --> 00:27:05.185 Wow. 00:27:05.185 --> 00:27:05.855 That's really cool. 00:27:05.855 --> 00:27:06.555 We'd love to do it. 00:27:06.555 --> 00:27:08.125 We'd love to make some maps. 00:27:08.125 --> 00:27:10.875 And, you know, Jack sort of gave that to me as a little special. 00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:15.660 So I've been kind of connecting with them and helping them along. 00:27:15.930 --> 00:27:19.770 But all of a sudden, you know, here they end up with ArcGIS Online and a bunch 00:27:19.770 --> 00:27:22.440 of members, and they have to figure out how to manage the organization. 00:27:22.710 --> 00:27:25.410 They have to understand what a credit is, right? 00:27:25.730 --> 00:27:27.049 And you know, there's all these people. 00:27:27.210 --> 00:27:33.830 Parts of a modern GIS, which are not really GIS or spatially related at all. 00:27:33.830 --> 00:27:39.940 It's an administrative role, which in an ArcGIS organization is as important 00:27:39.940 --> 00:27:41.880 as many other roles are certainly. 00:27:42.310 --> 00:27:46.120 And that's something I think people don't really quite understand. 00:27:46.120 --> 00:27:49.000 And in fact, this one organization in particular, 00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:50.180 that was their stumbling block. 00:27:50.180 --> 00:27:51.530 It's like, Oh, wait a second. 00:27:52.340 --> 00:27:56.050 You know, I have to, I have members and they have user types and roles. 00:27:56.050 --> 00:28:00.520 And I, gosh, I have credits now when I do, you know, it's, it's 00:28:00.520 --> 00:28:02.920 like, those are the things I think that catch people off guard. 00:28:02.950 --> 00:28:05.970 Larger, you know, organizations don't really deal with that. 00:28:05.970 --> 00:28:09.470 They get new ELA, they have a focus from an account manager. 00:28:09.470 --> 00:28:13.620 They have focus from solution engineers, but it's always been really interesting 00:28:13.620 --> 00:28:18.150 for me to have an opportunity and to meet at conferences and whatnot, the 00:28:18.150 --> 00:28:22.200 smaller users that are just beginning to kind of lift and just beginning 00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:23.760 to figure out like what they can do. 00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:27.400 And you know, I struggle a lot with people that are still using Google Earth 00:28:27.400 --> 00:28:31.770 and you know, it's like, there's a whole lot more you can do but just kind of 00:28:31.800 --> 00:28:36.020 moving up the couple of steps to get to a place where they can leverage that 00:28:36.020 --> 00:28:39.650 sometimes for many people is I don't know, just, just a little bit of a challenge. 00:28:41.895 --> 00:28:46.125 Jesse: The number of PhDs that we deal with every day who we like, if you 00:28:46.125 --> 00:28:49.815 just do this a little bit more, if you just look at GIS, as opposed to 00:28:49.815 --> 00:28:53.185 telling your students to go do this over in Google maps, your students 00:28:53.185 --> 00:28:59.995 would have such one easier time for doing their work and to have a thing 00:28:59.995 --> 00:29:02.015 they can take out into the job market. 00:29:02.015 --> 00:29:04.965 So it's just, ah, but that's, that's one of the things, right. 00:29:05.255 --> 00:29:08.595 As part of the evangelist aspect. 00:29:09.035 --> 00:29:13.775 is, you know, trying to bring those people into the, the geospace. 00:29:13.815 --> 00:29:16.275 And a lot of them, of course, are coming because they've heard 00:29:16.275 --> 00:29:17.965 of Esri and things like that. 00:29:17.965 --> 00:29:21.205 But how do you, whenever you're interacting with some of these people 00:29:21.205 --> 00:29:23.955 that you're meeting for the first time, how are you trying to bring 00:29:23.955 --> 00:29:27.555 them a little bit deeper into that geospace, into the geospatial arena? 00:29:29.650 --> 00:29:31.640 Bern: That's, that's a really good, good question. 00:29:31.700 --> 00:29:37.380 But what I try to do, I just did a little virtual webcast for a group 00:29:37.380 --> 00:29:42.090 of conservation folks that really have no GIS expertise at all. 00:29:42.470 --> 00:29:47.070 So I tried to break it down into the little you know, little pieces 00:29:47.270 --> 00:29:48.980 of how they can exceed succeed. 00:29:49.230 --> 00:29:53.810 And I also will acknowledge let's, you know, take my Esri hat off here for 00:29:53.810 --> 00:29:57.780 a while that for some organizations, depending on where you're at, you don't 00:29:57.790 --> 00:30:00.740 need you don't need full blown GIS. 00:30:00.770 --> 00:30:05.700 You just want to make some simple maps because maps, I mean, even today, maps 00:30:05.710 --> 00:30:10.170 are the fundamental building blocks of geographic information systems. 00:30:10.180 --> 00:30:15.090 And they, they, Captivate us now, especially with what you can do and 00:30:15.090 --> 00:30:18.960 what you can add to them, pop ups and tables and all these really great things. 00:30:19.350 --> 00:30:24.910 They are the fundamental building block of any geospatial activity for some 00:30:24.910 --> 00:30:27.040 people that's KML and Google Earth. 00:30:27.080 --> 00:30:30.560 And I am not going to fault people for doing that because it's simple. 00:30:30.710 --> 00:30:31.460 It's free. 00:30:31.720 --> 00:30:34.850 And a lot of the people I, I talked to are, are mostly 00:30:34.850 --> 00:30:36.110 interested in the free part. 00:30:36.110 --> 00:30:40.180 So all of a sudden when you have to get a subscription and, you know, all that 00:30:40.180 --> 00:30:41.900 stuff, that they sort of glaze over. 00:30:42.100 --> 00:30:47.920 One thing I am very fortunate to talk about is Esri has amazing grant programs. 00:30:48.180 --> 00:30:52.750 And Steve Beckwith is an amazing gentleman who runs our conservation grant program. 00:30:52.750 --> 00:30:54.570 And he's helped out a lot of users. 00:30:54.570 --> 00:30:55.980 I've kind of steered in his direction. 00:30:56.270 --> 00:30:58.890 that are just getting lifted and don't have a lot of funding. 00:30:58.890 --> 00:31:02.090 And we have a great Esri conservation program, which 00:31:02.090 --> 00:31:04.130 also lowers the bar for entry. 00:31:04.130 --> 00:31:07.420 And you know, we've great tutorials, great educational materials. 00:31:07.590 --> 00:31:11.270 So it does kind of lower the bar a bit, but still you're 00:31:11.270 --> 00:31:12.630 buying into the ecosystem. 00:31:12.770 --> 00:31:17.200 And Yeah, that's just part of what a modern day GIS is. 00:31:17.260 --> 00:31:20.480 And it's not like people still are confused when I talk to them 00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:23.650 about how ArcGIS Online works. 00:31:23.900 --> 00:31:26.970 Oh, wait, it's not like I buy software and I install it. 00:31:27.600 --> 00:31:30.830 And I think there's a lot of thinking like that, that, oh yeah, it's software. 00:31:30.830 --> 00:31:32.060 I install it and I use it. 00:31:33.455 --> 00:31:40.015 Yes and no, but you know, the benefits for kind of understanding it at a deeper level 00:31:40.045 --> 00:31:44.465 and taking it a little bit further is that you reside in this amazing ecosystem. 00:31:44.805 --> 00:31:50.135 That's not just full of fellow users, fellow ArcGIS online or enterprise 00:31:50.135 --> 00:31:55.140 users, but also connects directly and makes it seamless to access all that 00:31:55.140 --> 00:31:57.260 amazing content that's in Living Atlas. 00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:01.330 And yeah, to, to me, Living Atlas is this one of the most, I think, 00:32:01.370 --> 00:32:05.780 undersung parts of the entire platform, the entire ecosystem. 00:32:06.130 --> 00:32:10.350 I used to do these tech sessions with Dean Kensok and Sean Breyer at the 00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:12.760 UC, and it was just an intro session. 00:32:12.760 --> 00:32:15.630 And we'd start off the session by saying, how many people. 00:32:15.830 --> 00:32:18.640 Use living Atlas and maybe a third of the people in the 00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:19.520 room would raise their hands. 00:32:19.910 --> 00:32:22.380 Then the question would be how many people have used base maps? 00:32:22.550 --> 00:32:24.020 Everybody raises their hand, right? 00:32:24.030 --> 00:32:27.800 Well, if you're using a base map, that's actually from the living Atlas. 00:32:27.800 --> 00:32:33.090 And that's what takes away the burden of you having to build that for yourself. 00:32:33.090 --> 00:32:34.184 It's ready to use. 00:32:34.235 --> 00:32:36.185 Ready to go tons of different flavors. 00:32:36.355 --> 00:32:41.155 And on top of that, you've got all this wealth of, you know, live feeds. 00:32:41.405 --> 00:32:45.635 You've got all the demographic data, you've got global climate information. 00:32:46.055 --> 00:32:52.955 So I, I think that richness of the ecosystem is what is compelling for 00:32:52.955 --> 00:32:57.645 people to learn more and perhaps take it to the next level, maybe some people, 00:32:57.645 --> 00:33:01.715 all they really need to do is add a KML to Google earth and they're done. 00:33:02.125 --> 00:33:02.685 That's fine. 00:33:03.135 --> 00:33:10.005 But for those that understand what they might be missing or what The 00:33:10.005 --> 00:33:13.805 potential is then it's like, okay, I'm ready to take it to the next level. 00:33:14.065 --> 00:33:17.205 And that's when it becomes really interesting for me to try to help 00:33:17.205 --> 00:33:18.955 them figure out how to do that. 00:33:21.395 --> 00:33:22.905 Frank: So I'm going to push back ever so slightly. 00:33:22.905 --> 00:33:24.715 Something you said earlier you're not like 00:33:24.815 --> 00:33:25.215 Bern: pushback, 00:33:26.135 --> 00:33:27.665 Frank: you're not just a failed biologist. 00:33:27.665 --> 00:33:29.775 I think you're a wildly successful geographer. 00:33:30.005 --> 00:33:31.325 It's a different way to think about it, right? 00:33:33.015 --> 00:33:35.045 Bern: I think everybody's a geographer. 00:33:35.125 --> 00:33:37.495 I mean, really, everybody is a geographer. 00:33:37.885 --> 00:33:41.395 And, you know, geography, I remember when I had to choose what my major was 00:33:41.395 --> 00:33:45.365 going to be in, in college, I thought, well, you know, I was really into music. 00:33:45.365 --> 00:33:49.035 I played trombone, played piano, and I thought, I'm going to be a music major. 00:33:49.385 --> 00:33:54.375 But then I realized that, okay, really, I want to play professionally. 00:33:54.375 --> 00:33:57.275 And I, Just wasn't quite good enough to do that. 00:33:57.275 --> 00:33:58.585 And I thought, yeah, there I am. 00:33:58.585 --> 00:34:02.245 I'm going to be doing piano lessons for runny nose, you know, six year olds. 00:34:02.245 --> 00:34:03.765 And that's not what I want to do for a living. 00:34:04.215 --> 00:34:07.695 And then I thought, well, I had an amazing biology teacher in high school 00:34:07.695 --> 00:34:10.125 and he got me so excited about it. 00:34:10.185 --> 00:34:12.885 And I just thought, okay, bio major chemistry minor. 00:34:12.945 --> 00:34:13.569 That's great. 00:34:13.619 --> 00:34:14.189 That's it. 00:34:14.389 --> 00:34:18.869 But I think just because we're all, everything happens somewhere. 00:34:19.229 --> 00:34:23.879 And just because we are always somewhere, geography is built into 00:34:23.889 --> 00:34:25.749 every experience that we have in life. 00:34:26.059 --> 00:34:28.539 You know, even if you don't even think about it, right, you got 00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:31.819 married somewhere, you went on vacation somewhere, that's geography. 00:34:32.099 --> 00:34:34.849 You know, I'm looking at the trees out my window and it's a hot day. 00:34:34.849 --> 00:34:38.569 Well, the reason these trees are either doing great or not doing 00:34:38.569 --> 00:34:40.459 great is because of geography, right? 00:34:40.459 --> 00:34:42.299 So it's, it's everywhere. 00:34:42.299 --> 00:34:44.729 It's, it's totally pervasive and persistent. 00:34:45.109 --> 00:34:49.299 And what's interesting has been that you know, Esri has been in a position 00:34:49.299 --> 00:34:54.039 to be able to kind of take it to the next level by turning geography into 00:34:54.039 --> 00:34:58.439 something more meaningful, which I think of as geographic understanding, right? 00:34:58.439 --> 00:35:02.139 So a long time ago one of my colleagues here at work gave a little talk. 00:35:02.139 --> 00:35:05.299 He talked to someone about some big decision they were going to make 00:35:05.299 --> 00:35:08.559 and he said, well, are you sure this is going to solve your problems? 00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:12.919 And he said that the CIO or whatever at the company said, well, I think so. 00:35:13.789 --> 00:35:18.239 And the interesting thing was that I think GIS turns geography 00:35:18.249 --> 00:35:21.959 into something more meaningful and that's a geographic understanding. 00:35:21.959 --> 00:35:26.569 So it turns the, I think, into the I knows, or more 00:35:26.569 --> 00:35:28.859 importantly, the I understand. 00:35:29.079 --> 00:35:32.844 And once you apply GIS to get that understanding. 00:35:33.274 --> 00:35:35.554 That's when things really happen, right? 00:35:35.554 --> 00:35:39.434 You understand where the issues are, why the issues might be. 00:35:39.454 --> 00:35:42.604 And now we're in a really amazing position where we can 00:35:42.604 --> 00:35:44.434 even kind of push that forward. 00:35:44.744 --> 00:35:48.584 You know, it used to be GIS captured the present, then, okay, 00:35:48.584 --> 00:35:51.204 maybe a bit of the past and we can roll forward to the present. 00:35:51.464 --> 00:35:55.069 But now we're able to kind of Push things out into the future. 00:35:55.069 --> 00:35:58.589 And we have some, some of the live feeds and living Atlas now are predictive, 00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:01.249 you know, what's the stream flow going to be like a week down the road, 00:36:01.259 --> 00:36:03.469 thanks to USGS and things like that. 00:36:03.469 --> 00:36:07.939 But that to me is really interesting because by being able to look 00:36:07.949 --> 00:36:10.544 forward, I think we can look at. 00:36:10.614 --> 00:36:15.574 look at where we are now and make some effective decisions about what 00:36:15.574 --> 00:36:20.674 we might need to happen based on our understanding of what's going on and 00:36:20.674 --> 00:36:23.464 what might be to mitigate whatever it is. 00:36:23.474 --> 00:36:27.474 You know, we need to move whatever cornfields into the northern part of the 00:36:27.474 --> 00:36:30.784 United States or develop hybrids that can withstand the higher temperatures. 00:36:30.934 --> 00:36:33.934 Temperatures and, and, and deal with climate change. 00:36:33.934 --> 00:36:38.034 And I remember working years ago with one of the, one of the vineyards that 00:36:38.034 --> 00:36:41.824 was in the Willamette Valley, and they were already looking forward or 00:36:42.204 --> 00:36:47.159 anticipating moving their vineyards further north because of climate change. 00:36:47.619 --> 00:36:50.429 The climate change that would impact their growing. 00:36:50.429 --> 00:36:54.809 So that ability to look forward, I think, is kind of key to GIS right now. 00:36:56.169 --> 00:36:58.589 Sue: Well, I think that that leads me to a question then. 00:36:58.919 --> 00:37:02.669 And over the many years, it's always been A question I kind of kind of do towards 00:37:02.669 --> 00:37:07.064 the end is is the looking forward question And so I'm wondering as you kind of you 00:37:07.064 --> 00:37:10.609 know I've had a chance to look back if if there's anything particularly that 00:37:10.609 --> 00:37:14.579 you're you know Either working on now or that you see on the horizon that you're 00:37:14.579 --> 00:37:19.059 especially excited about Because I know for example i've always been waiting for 00:37:19.059 --> 00:37:22.999 the the vr to to make it You know, it's like the next year is going to be the 00:37:22.999 --> 00:37:25.969 one where it's just gonna be the most awesome thing and along the way a lot 00:37:25.969 --> 00:37:29.274 of amazing technologies and, and uses. 00:37:29.274 --> 00:37:32.464 And, and, you know, I really like, I think that the evolution as you've 00:37:32.464 --> 00:37:36.354 been talking about every year of not just building in technology, but what 00:37:36.354 --> 00:37:37.904 does the technology do for us, right? 00:37:37.904 --> 00:37:40.474 What does, what does GIS geospatial technology do for us? 00:37:40.474 --> 00:37:40.624 Right. 00:37:40.624 --> 00:37:41.894 That geographic understanding. 00:37:41.894 --> 00:37:44.354 I think that's evolved to over the years. 00:37:44.664 --> 00:37:48.024 So, so anyway, I'm wondering if there's anything that, that you kind of see 00:37:48.024 --> 00:37:52.034 is really exciting, maybe you know, near at hand or further down the line. 00:37:52.714 --> 00:37:56.234 Bern: You know, I wish I could say that I'm a visionary that could really 00:37:56.234 --> 00:38:01.014 articulate that well, but again, I'll be the first to admit that I'm not, 00:38:01.024 --> 00:38:04.694 but I do appreciate what you said there, Sue, because I, I, I didn't, 00:38:04.764 --> 00:38:07.874 I think there was a podcast where maybe it was you mentioned that you're 00:38:07.874 --> 00:38:11.519 still waiting for AR VR to really, you know, You know, to really happen. 00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:11.739 Right. 00:38:11.739 --> 00:38:12.239 What does it mean? 00:38:12.569 --> 00:38:16.359 And even at the user conference, you know, people are always amazed at, at 00:38:16.359 --> 00:38:20.119 the 3d things, like I think this year it was what it was Singapore, right? 00:38:20.119 --> 00:38:23.829 So Singapore did these amazing things in 3d and we now have 3d 00:38:23.829 --> 00:38:25.219 base maps and things like that. 00:38:25.219 --> 00:38:29.869 And the one thing that I've experienced over all these years is that it's 00:38:29.879 --> 00:38:35.179 pretty easy for someone to look at something that's been done in GIS and 00:38:35.179 --> 00:38:38.069 say, wow, wow, that's really cool. 00:38:38.469 --> 00:38:39.559 But then the. 00:38:39.924 --> 00:38:43.534 Part that's always a challenge is, okay, that's the wow. 00:38:44.574 --> 00:38:46.634 How do we make that happen? 00:38:46.634 --> 00:38:50.824 And I think that's the burden that's placed upon GIS practitioners. 00:38:51.084 --> 00:38:56.594 They take the wow factor that somebody in their organization just totally loved. 00:38:57.004 --> 00:39:00.194 But it's up to them to kind of make it a reality. 00:39:00.394 --> 00:39:03.244 And then there's probably another little question in there too, which is the why. 00:39:03.564 --> 00:39:06.544 I find that I don't know, maybe, maybe this is going to be an unpopular, 00:39:06.684 --> 00:39:09.164 I'm sure it'll be an unpopular statement, but I'll make it anyway. 00:39:09.474 --> 00:39:14.624 I think a lot of GIS people make things harder than they need it to be. 00:39:15.044 --> 00:39:19.024 And I think just because you can, doesn't mean you should. 00:39:19.174 --> 00:39:23.024 And I remember years ago, I actually a friend of mine who worked for a 00:39:23.024 --> 00:39:25.014 national park kind of asked me to. 00:39:25.169 --> 00:39:26.349 come on up and volunteer. 00:39:26.349 --> 00:39:29.229 He gave me a place to stay in the park for a while, and I 00:39:29.289 --> 00:39:30.959 kind of worked on his database. 00:39:30.979 --> 00:39:36.489 A professor, retired professor, had gone in and redone everything for the park. 00:39:36.769 --> 00:39:40.529 Very elegant design you know, geodatabase, all that stuff. 00:39:41.019 --> 00:39:45.839 He left, and all of a sudden, nobody could figure out what the pieces were. 00:39:46.719 --> 00:39:53.074 I think what happens is that Part of what we have to do as GIS professionals 00:39:53.074 --> 00:39:56.094 is to make sure that what we do is sustainable looking forward. 00:39:56.664 --> 00:39:59.834 And in a larger organization, that's probably easier because you 00:39:59.834 --> 00:40:01.344 should be grooming people along. 00:40:01.344 --> 00:40:05.794 There should be documented workflows and you know, those kinds of things. 00:40:05.794 --> 00:40:09.104 But all too often I see kind of things dry up and blow away for a 00:40:09.104 --> 00:40:13.199 while just because Ah, man, there was a great team there, but they didn't 00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:14.769 think about making it sustainable. 00:40:14.769 --> 00:40:18.049 And then the next crew comes in and has to pick up the pieces and 00:40:18.049 --> 00:40:19.349 try to figure out what's going on. 00:40:19.349 --> 00:40:22.109 And that's, that's sort of been a shame, I think, for a lot of 00:40:22.109 --> 00:40:23.869 organizations that that's happened. 00:40:24.069 --> 00:40:27.189 Doesn't happen that often, thankfully, but it does happen. 00:40:27.549 --> 00:40:30.549 So I think that's part of the role of a GIS professional. 00:40:30.919 --> 00:40:34.794 A part of the role, as we mentioned earlier, is Administering an organization, 00:40:34.974 --> 00:40:38.754 you're part of an organization and that means certain things and there's 00:40:38.754 --> 00:40:42.474 certain skills and certain things that you have to understand and know about. 00:40:42.944 --> 00:40:46.579 And yeah, I think part of it too is I, I've heard in your podcast, a lot 00:40:46.579 --> 00:40:50.299 of it is about, you know, I remember Charlie Fitzpatrick used to say, you 00:40:50.304 --> 00:40:51.709 gotta keep your knees bent, right? 00:40:51.769 --> 00:40:55.279 You gotta be able to absorb the bumps in the ride and, and stuff 00:40:55.279 --> 00:40:56.719 like that and go with the flow. 00:40:56.999 --> 00:41:01.289 One of my favorite things that I used to say at the end of some of my keynotes was. 00:41:01.649 --> 00:41:05.919 You know, I talk about, you know, imagining the possibilities, but 00:41:05.919 --> 00:41:10.999 my final farewell would always be, don't just imagine the possibilities, 00:41:11.209 --> 00:41:13.189 reimagine what's possible. 00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:18.009 And I think that's something that GIS professionals have to do, you know, like 00:41:18.009 --> 00:41:22.319 on a yearly basis, you know, just because you're doing things a certain way and 00:41:22.319 --> 00:41:27.359 you have workflows that work doesn't mean that that's going to continue on forever. 00:41:27.359 --> 00:41:27.619 Right? 00:41:27.799 --> 00:41:30.139 So ArcMap goes away and you've got ArcPro. 00:41:30.439 --> 00:41:34.709 All of a sudden we've got all these analysis capabilities in ArcGIS Online. 00:41:34.709 --> 00:41:38.569 What does that mean for me as an organization with pro users? 00:41:38.569 --> 00:41:41.289 And, you know, there's all these kinds of different things that 00:41:41.289 --> 00:41:42.919 you need to pull into the picture. 00:41:42.919 --> 00:41:48.759 So I think one of the obligations that we have as GIS professionals is that we need 00:41:48.759 --> 00:41:51.729 to keep on thinking about what's possible. 00:41:51.729 --> 00:41:56.544 And I think events like the local user group meetings being tapped into that I 00:41:56.544 --> 00:42:00.604 think certainly listening to the great materials on your podcast and, and other 00:42:00.604 --> 00:42:04.164 materials that are being published out there and even just looking and seeing 00:42:04.164 --> 00:42:08.414 what people do and are presenting at the Ezra user conference is a great 00:42:08.444 --> 00:42:13.684 way to sort of, you know, re imagine what you do and think about different 00:42:13.684 --> 00:42:15.404 ways to do it, to keep moving forward. 00:42:16.714 --> 00:42:17.074 Jesse: Okay. 00:42:17.204 --> 00:42:21.634 I think, you know, whenever we first met it was at a transition time. 00:42:21.634 --> 00:42:22.344 What 2. 00:42:22.344 --> 00:42:23.214 0 was starting. 00:42:23.319 --> 00:42:28.329 You know, everything was kind of shifting from, like you were saying with 00:42:28.329 --> 00:42:33.049 Silverlight and those type of things, bringing down individual images to, you 00:42:33.049 --> 00:42:34.809 know, our slippy maps that we have today. 00:42:35.159 --> 00:42:40.479 You know, the short term excitement about Explorer and Globe and those 00:42:40.479 --> 00:42:43.369 type of things that were, you know, early days pulling on some of these 00:42:43.749 --> 00:42:48.929 active systems to today, you know, we just have this wealth, this explosion. 00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:53.559 Whenever you look at just the toolbox from. 00:42:54.269 --> 00:43:01.349 whenever we first talked in the mid 2000s to today, just the sheer number of tools 00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:05.399 and the fact that, as you're saying, many of those are moving More and more into 00:43:05.399 --> 00:43:09.709 the cloud, the fact that we now have web editors that we can take advantage of, you 00:43:09.709 --> 00:43:16.169 know, it's just all of these things that have just changed the underlying idea of 00:43:16.169 --> 00:43:21.519 what it means to be a GIS or geospatial technology professional, or just using 00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:23.519 these things in your day to day life. 00:43:24.099 --> 00:43:24.889 And we have. 00:43:25.259 --> 00:43:31.019 So many more people entering the workforce who grew up on being able to 00:43:31.019 --> 00:43:35.319 see story maps or, you know, pull up Google maps or Apple maps on their phone. 00:43:35.319 --> 00:43:37.209 And they're just, they're used to it. 00:43:37.679 --> 00:43:42.879 That was just something that, you know, we were happy whenever we had, I just forgot 00:43:42.879 --> 00:43:45.549 the one from the 1990s map map quest. 00:43:45.559 --> 00:43:46.019 Thank you. 00:43:46.419 --> 00:43:48.249 You know, we were, we were excited about map class. 00:43:48.249 --> 00:43:51.799 And then of course, once we got into GIS in the late nineties, you know, the access 00:43:51.799 --> 00:44:00.129 to arc view, IMS and, and others, you know, Just this ability today to have more 00:44:00.129 --> 00:44:05.829 of a conversation around maps because so many more people are used to them now, 00:44:06.319 --> 00:44:09.329 you know, that I think is really exciting. 00:44:09.689 --> 00:44:11.439 Bern: Maps are still amazing things. 00:44:11.439 --> 00:44:14.559 And that, like I said, was what really got me excited. 00:44:15.079 --> 00:44:16.059 I think what's. 00:44:16.249 --> 00:44:20.069 been interesting is in terms of our ArcGIS world. 00:44:20.069 --> 00:44:24.389 Certainly it's gotten easier to create really expressive and really compelling 00:44:24.659 --> 00:44:29.589 maps and the trade craft bar to do that has certainly been lower, but 00:44:29.589 --> 00:44:34.789 yet there's still things you need to think about and yeah, it's you know, 00:44:36.099 --> 00:44:41.299 maps are the most powerful way that we have to communicate and collaborate 00:44:41.619 --> 00:44:43.709 with other geo interested people. 00:44:44.049 --> 00:44:51.319 And that to me, a map is the end product of what a GIS professional delivers. 00:44:51.649 --> 00:44:54.869 And when I say an end product, I don't mean it's just the map. 00:44:55.219 --> 00:44:57.159 It's the map in an app, right? 00:44:57.159 --> 00:45:00.869 So you can interact with it and you can, you know, click on things and you might 00:45:00.869 --> 00:45:04.439 be able to have some special tools to do some very interesting things with that. 00:45:04.439 --> 00:45:07.949 So the, the notion of what a map is, has really. 00:45:08.389 --> 00:45:16.949 Expanded, and it's gotten easier for anybody to experience them, but also it 00:45:16.979 --> 00:45:23.119 has kind of lifted the requirements for a GIS person to figure out what that means. 00:45:23.299 --> 00:45:27.834 I'm, I'm a Virgo and I pay, you know, attention to detail ad nauseam. 00:45:27.834 --> 00:45:30.684 At least that's what people tell me is a characteristic of a Virgo. 00:45:30.684 --> 00:45:31.424 I'm not really sure. 00:45:31.724 --> 00:45:34.124 But when I look at a map, I look at everything. 00:45:34.124 --> 00:45:37.454 I look at the pop up and I say, geez, they could have done this a little bit better. 00:45:37.454 --> 00:45:39.194 This is just a list of attributes. 00:45:39.514 --> 00:45:43.584 You know, that's as much a part of the information product as any 00:45:43.604 --> 00:45:45.664 cartography in the map is as well. 00:45:46.054 --> 00:45:50.744 And I think putting that into context of a great application is also something 00:45:50.744 --> 00:45:53.954 that is a nuance that a lot of. 00:45:54.204 --> 00:45:58.104 GIS professionals kind of miss or they miss the importance of because they 00:45:58.104 --> 00:46:02.604 were involved in the deep root elements of the analysis that they had to do 00:46:02.604 --> 00:46:07.704 or pulling together the data and, you know, doing all that heavy lifting 00:46:07.714 --> 00:46:11.784 that you typically do in ArcGIS Pro to end up with that nice looking map. 00:46:11.794 --> 00:46:13.614 But the map is how you communicate. 00:46:13.614 --> 00:46:15.904 And these days it's all about communication. 00:46:16.314 --> 00:46:20.524 Communicating what's important to you as an organization, communicating to educate 00:46:20.524 --> 00:46:24.444 the public about what's happening in your city or what's happening on the planet. 00:46:25.214 --> 00:46:28.114 You know, it's all about a map and that's the interface 00:46:28.434 --> 00:46:30.834 to GIS and GIS practitioners. 00:46:31.594 --> 00:46:32.524 We make the maps. 00:46:32.984 --> 00:46:37.074 And I think there's lots of aspects of that that have gotten much more easier, 00:46:37.104 --> 00:46:40.504 much more powerful that I don't know, sometimes they're just overlooked. 00:46:40.834 --> 00:46:45.044 And I actually, I think I give some of the education people I work with a little 00:46:45.044 --> 00:46:48.174 bit of a hard time because they'll show me this great thing that their student did. 00:46:48.174 --> 00:46:49.514 And yeah, it's a good looking map. 00:46:49.534 --> 00:46:49.904 Great. 00:46:50.254 --> 00:46:51.804 But Oh, let me look at that pop up. 00:46:51.834 --> 00:46:54.744 Oh, look, you got the object ID still in there. 00:46:54.964 --> 00:46:56.554 Like, why didn't you get rid of that? 00:46:56.564 --> 00:46:57.134 You know? 00:46:57.444 --> 00:46:59.804 So these are like, I mean, that's just kind of me. 00:46:59.804 --> 00:47:00.414 I kind of. 00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:02.829 Pick and poke at the little, little details. 00:47:02.919 --> 00:47:06.569 You guys have much bigger picture viewpoint to things than, than I do, 00:47:06.599 --> 00:47:08.129 but I think that's all part of it. 00:47:08.279 --> 00:47:12.409 I mean, the sum, the sum of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, 00:47:12.599 --> 00:47:16.929 but the parts have to be there to make the whole as great as it, as it can be. 00:47:16.929 --> 00:47:20.159 So there's lots of interesting aspects that come, that come together to 00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:25.369 make, to make a great map or make a GIS department successful or make 00:47:25.419 --> 00:47:27.669 make a meaningful exploration of. 00:47:27.969 --> 00:47:32.479 Things that we need to do better our planet, better our world, or to 00:47:32.559 --> 00:47:34.509 solve a, solve a task or problem. 00:47:36.019 --> 00:47:37.329 Jesse: Don't get me started on pop ups. 00:47:37.839 --> 00:47:40.879 Well, thank you for joining us after many, many years. 00:47:40.939 --> 00:47:46.059 It's always been a great chance to, to sit and talk about some of the online 00:47:46.059 --> 00:47:50.659 objects, but also, you know, just the general trends of, you know, how to 00:47:50.659 --> 00:47:52.279 interact with, with our community. 00:47:52.579 --> 00:47:54.839 You know, some, some of these things are, are great things that we've 00:47:54.839 --> 00:47:55.999 had a chance to talk to you about. 00:47:55.999 --> 00:47:59.089 So just wanted to thank you for joining us today and, you know, 00:47:59.329 --> 00:48:00.069 talking about those things. 00:48:00.359 --> 00:48:01.329 Bern: It's a privilege to be here. 00:48:01.349 --> 00:48:03.859 Great seeing everybody again, and we'll look forward to the 00:48:03.859 --> 00:48:05.229 next time our paths will cross. 00:48:08.919 --> 00:48:11.439 Jesse: As always, if you'd like us to add your event to the podcast, send us 00:48:11.439 --> 00:48:13.529 an email to podcast at very spacial. 00:48:13.529 --> 00:48:13.899 com. 00:48:14.289 --> 00:48:16.139 Sue: And if you'd like to reach us individually, I can be 00:48:16.139 --> 00:48:17.289 reached at Sue at very spacial. 00:48:17.289 --> 00:48:17.599 com. 00:48:17.919 --> 00:48:17.989 I 00:48:17.989 --> 00:48:18.219 Frank: can be 00:48:18.219 --> 00:48:19.759 Barb: reached at Barb at very spacial. 00:48:19.759 --> 00:48:20.079 com. 00:48:20.209 --> 00:48:21.849 Frank: You can reach me at Frank at very spacial. 00:48:21.919 --> 00:48:24.439 com and you can follow me on all the social medias 00:48:26.674 --> 00:48:29.274 Jesse: I'm available at Kinda Spatial and probably you can find our 00:48:29.364 --> 00:48:31.024 contact information at veryspatial. 00:48:31.024 --> 00:48:32.314 com slash contacts. 00:48:32.874 --> 00:48:33.384 But who knows? 00:48:33.754 --> 00:48:34.364 As always, 00:48:34.484 --> 00:48:35.744 Barb: we're the folks from Very Spatial. 00:48:35.794 --> 00:48:36.564 Jesse: Thanks for listening. 00:48:36.664 --> 00:48:37.694 Sue: And we'll see you in a couple weeks.