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just wanted to get this full screen.

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There we go.

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So I don't have to be distracted by myself.

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All right.

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Good kill.

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Welcome to the Music Production Podcast.

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Good to have you.

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Yeah, thanks for having me Brian.

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It's awesome to be here.

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Yeah, it's nice to get to know you, get to know your work, to meet you.

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And it's kind of cool when it's through a mutual contact.

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And that was TJ aka Sixmissing, who is probably going to be the next episode that gets
released actually.

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And I don't know if there might be one in between when this finally happens, but yeah, it
was cool to hear him say like, you should check this stuff out.

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And he was right.

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I love what you're doing.

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Thank you.

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Yeah, TJ is a great guy.

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um And you know, it's like as soon as he releases something, I'm streaming it immediately.

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So he's uh always doing really quality stuff.

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Yeah, I always have a need for kind of like relaxing playlists and sounds and albums and
just stuff that I don't want to say that I just let fade into the background.

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mean, sometimes, yeah, but yeah, just something to kind of slow myself down and his stuff
fits that perfectly.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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I mean, when I'm working, you know, there's always different moods to kind of, ah to kind
of reach for.

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But most of the time, I feel like I need relaxing stuff to kind of keep me from getting
too frustrated or just getting too bogged down by anything.

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So it's always nice to kind of have uh music like his in the Rolodex.

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if it's these days or this age or something, but yeah.

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Your stuff has got that too.

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I really enjoy what you're doing.

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Lots of ambient, but also like some cool textures.

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Nature seems to be like a big part of what you do.

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And I guess the background for people that might only be listening is sort of perfect.

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You've got a wall of modular, another wall of some sense.

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see like, looks like the Mo grandmother.

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or maybe it's the matriarch even.

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Yeah, but then you've got a plant, um which looks a lot like, I don't know if you can see
the one I got, but they look like they could be, can you see that?

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It might be just out of view.

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Yeah, they look like they could be related.

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Mine is struggling to stay alive, so don't look too close.

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m

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and this organic thing.

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Yeah, for me, you know, when I got into modular and like synths in general, you know, I
always kind of wanted to make sure it was a means to an end.

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um And, you know, I have like real world experiences.

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I love going out and hiking, biking, all that stuff.

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ah And the stuff that I try, like that's what I try to represent.

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And

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I feel like I happen to do it with modular or synthesizers or drum machines or whatever.

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um So I guess I try to kind of capture that synergy just by kind of like what I'm trying
to represent and what I'm using to do it.

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um And you started as a guitar player,

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Mm Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I started when I was about 13.

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I ah didn't have any real interest or exposure to music before that.

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ah Well, I was exposed to it, obviously, because like who who isn't exposed to music.

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ah But, know, I didn't really have an interest in it until that point.

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And I remember the day that I like randomly said to my mom, like,

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what if, you know, my grandfather taught me guitar because he was a really amazing jazz
guitarist.

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And so the thought just popped into my head like, I could do that.

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And I could see like, you know, the gears were turning in my mom's head.

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She was like, okay, this is different.

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Don't discourage it.

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But also like kind of what's going on right now.

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So I...

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ah

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you probably the next day we walked around the corner to my grandfather's house because he
lived right on the block.

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and I said, like, you know, I want to learn guitar.

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Will you please teach me?

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Um, and he basically pointed at one of his guitars and he said, okay, grab that one and
you're going to learn the way I did take it home.

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I'm not teaching you anything.

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so, you know, I've

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walked back around the corner with this guitar probably carrying it like you know scared
to death um and that was my task just figure it out basically

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Hmm.

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Wow.

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So just almost like I don't want to influence you or guide you like in a particular
direction.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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And, you know, it you can probably guess it didn't go great, at least the first time.

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ah So I spent probably like a year, you know, kind of ah working my way through it not
really getting far.

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ah And I took some time away from it.

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You know, it kind of became like a shameful thing.

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Like he'd asked me how it was going and I'd

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kind of dodged the question.

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But it was after I actually kind of developed my own real taste in music um that I started
getting into Metallica um or I don't know, like Linkin Park or whatever at the time.

83
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um And I'd be listening to this music and then I'd look over at the guitar and I was like,
I wonder if I could play this.

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And then once I actually had a goal to work towards instead of the whole abstract concept
of learn this instrument, ah that's kind of where it all clicked.

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uh once you start playing other people's music and you kind of learn what they're doing,
kind of see some of the patterns, then you can kind of extrapolate it for yourself and

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start writing your own music.

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um So you weren't looking for jazz, you were looking for sounds like harder stuff, heavier
stuff.

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Yeah, think, yeah, it wasn't until high school that I joined my high school jazz band.

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And then that was kind of, that was my exposure to that whole world.

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um But up until that point, it was all kind of like self-taught, like drop D and E minor
type stuff.

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you know, just kind of.

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working your way through it and uh just mimicking what I was hearing.

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But once I got to jazz band, know, the whole, like everything kind of came together and I
started seeing stuff in a really different way.

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Right, I can imagine you probably had some understanding, some foundations, then sort of,
alright, well this is what it all means, like the key to the map.

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Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Yeah, and I think, you know, just like being open minded, being a sponge and like, you
know, not going into anything with with too many.

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I don't know, prejudices like, you know, I didn't have an opinion on jazz.

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I just kind of joined because all my friends were interested in it and they were joining
the jazz band.

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So I was like, OK, I guess I'll.

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I I'll join too because in my high school it was cool to be in the band.

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ah So I just kind of went into it with an open mind and tried to learn everything that I
could.

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And it turned out to be really awesome experience.

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My ah high school teacher was like one of my biggest influences and like best teachers and
just life in general.

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That's awesome.

105
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I sort of started in similar ways.

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I was about that age and you know, I've never had exposure to music as a participant.

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You'd hear it like, you know, it's everywhere.

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But yeah, it was kind of never occurred to me that I could actually participate.

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And once I realized that it was very exciting and...

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m

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I got my first guitar from my grandpa too, but he wasn't a really guitar player.

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He had this, I still have it.

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It's like my favorite guitar.

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It's this old Gibson acoustic, but it's a short scale guitar.

115
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It's almost like a parlor guitar.

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And it was just too small for him to get his fingers on.

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And so I think that kind of took a lot of the steam out of it.

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I don't know if he ever really knew that he could have got a bigger one.

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Like, wow, this is hard.

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Yeah, cause yeah, on these, it's got a smaller neck than like my electric guitars and like
a strat does.

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So yeah, I could see how I'd be like, can't play this thing.

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too little.

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But yeah, it's fun to learn it and discover it kind of on your own way a little bit.

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I took some lessons, but

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Yeah, just having that experience of finding it.

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Of course, you never know what the roads of life would be like, but looking back, I'm kind
of glad I got to do that rather than maybe when I started, I sort of wished I'd played in

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band, so I understood music a little bit, but it would have changed things.

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I think at the end of the day, it's like, you know, you can be exposed or taught whatever,
but really, I think there is like an element where you have to teach yourself, like you

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have to figure it out for yourself.

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And I think that's, that's true for whatever you're doing, ah music or otherwise, like,
you know, if you're just instructed exactly what to do, I don't know if it's going to

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really take in the same way.

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Like, you know, you can tell your student exactly where to put their fingers and you know,
which string to strum and when to do it.

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But like, what are they, what are they ultimately doing?

134
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You know, that's not really any different than like, you know, dictating or, you know,
like writing down exactly what someone's saying as they're saying it.

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Like, are you really taking notes?

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Not really.

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You're kind of like transcribing.

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So I think.

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Like, you really need that personal experience of sitting there and reckoning with it and
grappling with it and, you know, taking the time to figure out like, how does this work?

140
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What do I think is cool about this?

141
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ah And, and like the next step is like, what do you hear other people doing?

142
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What do you like about it?

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What do you dislike about it?

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What would you do differently?

145
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And then you're kind of like off to the races at that point.

146
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Um, but I think I also never really had lessons, so I can only kind of imagine what it's
like to kind of go through that process.

147
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But from what I've heard, it's a lot of kind of that experience of more being instructed
exactly what to do.

148
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Yeah, there's, you know, I just read a book about learning and like how we learn and
they've apparently found according to science that when there is some struggle, you retain

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stuff better.

150
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And what you were saying kind of reminds me of almost like if you were tracing a picture
compared to if you were trying to draw it on your own and

151
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I think there is something to that, all that processing that happens when you're trying to
figure out how is this supposed to go?

152
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But apparently there's some sort of magic level of struggle that allows you to like really
learn better and your memory is better about the things you learn.

153
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And they say that about flow too, the flow state that you want to be at a level where you
are challenged.

154
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It's not too hard for you, but sometimes you fail.

155
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Sometimes you succeed.

156
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So that's what kind of makes sense that learning would be like that.

157
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Yeah, I, um, when, you know, I sit down to actually compose something or, you know, just
write something, it's usually how I start my day.

158
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but I feel like I'm most satisfied when there's kind of like a, like a thesis to it, uh,
where there's, you know, if I'm starting with something that I don't quite understand, you

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know, especially if you have like a new piece of gear or

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you know, if you have a piece of gear already and you know, it's like, I don't really
understand what that mode does.

161
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You know, let's sit down and figure it out today.

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um That's kind of been my most successful way to get started and to, you know, kind of
just generate something that I think is interesting.

163
00:14:06,089 --> 00:14:10,890
um You know, I think, I guess that is like the struggle.

164
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starting with something you don't understand and kind of like, you know, it's got to be
relatively bite sized.

165
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Like I'm not going to sit there and, you know, say, okay, I'm going to figure out how Bach
wrote this concerto or whatever.

166
00:14:25,996 --> 00:14:32,008
I'm going to, you know, take something that is relatively actionable.

167
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Like, I don't understand how this guitar pedal works and just try to make something cool
with it.

168
00:14:38,750 --> 00:14:40,710
And at that point, uh

169
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I think that's a really great way to kind of catalyze that process.

170
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Hmm.

171
00:14:48,475 --> 00:14:49,076
Yeah, it is.

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It's some, some sort of direction because we have infinite directions to go in and
something, just some little thread to pull on can really make a difference because I get

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stuck a lot when I don't know what to do.

174
00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:09,532
And especially like I've got time and like, what am going to do today?

175
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don't know.

176
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Sometimes.

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Yeah, just.

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That is crippling, just not known, when there is like that mission, if you don't want to
do that.

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I got to say that's, um, makes me think of how I was interacting with your plugins, which,
uh, we haven't even mentioned yet, but you've got your own plugins, Akiladom sounds,

180
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right?

181
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That's what you're calling the, the kind of company, I guess.

182
00:15:38,295 --> 00:15:42,880
And, um, they're really fun and they kind of.

183
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puts you in this state of not completely knowing what's gonna happen when I do something.

184
00:15:50,724 --> 00:15:53,355
And I think the graphical interface is really nice too.

185
00:15:53,355 --> 00:15:56,407
And it's got that like nature thing.

186
00:15:56,407 --> 00:15:59,058
Talking to you already, I get why it looks the way it does.

187
00:15:59,058 --> 00:16:04,430
Cause you've got these like really nice backgrounds that kind of pull you into it a little
bit.

188
00:16:04,430 --> 00:16:06,290
Yeah, thank you, man.

189
00:16:06,650 --> 00:16:15,090
That's really great to hear, because that's kind of exactly what I was hoping for when I'm
building them.

190
00:16:16,070 --> 00:16:29,216
I think one of the core tenets of my plugin companies is of helping people find
inspiration, which I think...

191
00:16:29,216 --> 00:16:30,859
um I wrote it down.

192
00:16:30,859 --> 00:16:33,932
uh Plugins for the curious and open-minded.

193
00:16:33,932 --> 00:16:48,492
Yeah, think it's, you know, I personally, don't actually use that many plugins because ah
I think they tend to be very utilitarian.

194
00:16:48,492 --> 00:16:59,200
ah You know, something like, you know, the Soundtoys bundle or like RC-20 or something
like that.

195
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,488
Like they're really amazing tools, obviously, like they're

196
00:17:02,488 --> 00:17:04,479
really badass like DSP engineers.

197
00:17:04,479 --> 00:17:10,481
ah Though I think ultimately they tend to serve a precise need.

198
00:17:10,481 --> 00:17:26,288
Like I'm opening Echo Boy because I want this delay or, you know, it tends to be that
there is a precise like utility that you're going for.

199
00:17:27,668 --> 00:17:31,695
And for that reason, I tend not to use software that much.

200
00:17:31,695 --> 00:17:44,325
m and I gravitated towards all the hardware stuff because I think there is a little bit
more unpredictability um and really feeling like you're kind of collaborating with this

201
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machine as opposed to telling it exactly what to do um and I think you know for those of
us with kind of like a background of playing in bands like that's a really natural space

202
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to occupy because

203
00:18:01,580 --> 00:18:07,822
You know, you might be playing with your buddy and you can't tell them exactly what to
play.

204
00:18:07,822 --> 00:18:16,954
You can kind of say like, I've got this, you know, this riff or this melody or whatever,
like, you know, try it out, but they're going to play it in a different way than you would

205
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play it.

206
00:18:17,695 --> 00:18:27,007
And, know, you're not going to sit, sit there and spend two hours like, no, like the, this
is the exact accent and the emphasis or whatever.

207
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so I think it's kind of the same experience where like,

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00:18:30,862 --> 00:18:42,682
you know, you're working with this piece of hardware or, you know, what I'm hoping to do
with the plugins is like, feels like you're interacting with this thing and there's a bit

209
00:18:42,682 --> 00:18:45,082
of a and a pull.

210
00:18:45,962 --> 00:18:47,602
I'm kind of like negotiation.

211
00:18:47,602 --> 00:18:51,042
Like there's things that it can do really well.

212
00:18:52,002 --> 00:18:58,722
There's things that you can kind of coerce it to do if you want to take the, take the
effort.

213
00:18:59,394 --> 00:19:11,346
But ultimately, I think it's occupying that space where you are, you you might have an
idea about what you're doing in that jam session, but it turns out totally different.

214
00:19:11,527 --> 00:19:13,087
I think that's okay.

215
00:19:13,629 --> 00:19:15,350
I think that can be really fun.

216
00:19:16,747 --> 00:19:19,427
I love that aspect of making music.

217
00:19:19,427 --> 00:19:30,127
They kind of, I'm an explorer, you know, like I'm like getting on the boat heading into
the Atlantic and the 1300s or something and just, see what we can find past the end of

218
00:19:30,127 --> 00:19:31,147
this map.

219
00:19:31,511 --> 00:19:46,760
Yeah, I think it's funny that you mention a boat because I think of it as like, ah you
know, if you're looking at a map, can't just go somewhere on a boat.

220
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,041
You can only steer it left and right.

221
00:19:49,081 --> 00:19:59,437
So, you you might see something off in the distance and you want to get there, but you
might have to take this, you know, long arc and maybe you get there or maybe you...

222
00:19:59,961 --> 00:20:02,872
find something off to the other side that's more interesting.

223
00:20:03,773 --> 00:20:14,196
And I think that is just way more fun and engaging than saying like, you know, just
pointing on the map and saying, I want to go right there.

224
00:20:15,757 --> 00:20:28,588
Yeah, I think it's, it's way more interesting and often more rewarding to kind of steer
yourself there and see where you get or how long it takes to get there.

225
00:20:28,588 --> 00:20:30,347
if you get distracted or whatever.

226
00:20:32,235 --> 00:20:33,195
Yeah.

227
00:20:33,615 --> 00:20:38,535
And kind of what I was saying before, like when there's so many choices and decisions, you
don't know where to go.

228
00:20:38,535 --> 00:20:40,115
It can be like paralyzing.

229
00:20:40,335 --> 00:20:43,015
So I try to come up with like a plan.

230
00:20:43,015 --> 00:20:48,454
I do this with my classes and stuff, like try to give them a, make them define the plan.

231
00:20:48,454 --> 00:20:50,195
Like what kind of song are you trying to make?

232
00:20:50,195 --> 00:20:51,195
What's the occasion?

233
00:20:51,195 --> 00:20:53,195
Why would someone listen to it?

234
00:20:53,195 --> 00:20:58,235
Just as much as you can, but then not worry what happens.

235
00:20:58,235 --> 00:21:01,109
So pick a target and make it as

236
00:21:01,109 --> 00:21:04,002
clear as you can, it might be kind of fuzzy and blurry.

237
00:21:04,002 --> 00:21:09,166
Then just shoot the arrow and it's not about hitting the target necessarily.

238
00:21:09,166 --> 00:21:15,891
Just now you're going for something and then all of these interesting things can happen
along the way.

239
00:21:16,099 --> 00:21:21,596
I think you get that with like hardware gear a lot more.

240
00:21:21,677 --> 00:21:27,842
So even if it's an EQ on like a mixing board, they might only be like certain numbers.

241
00:21:27,842 --> 00:21:29,163
You might get like

242
00:21:29,291 --> 00:21:34,751
200 Hertz, 1K, 5K, and then that's, you know, maybe one more.

243
00:21:34,831 --> 00:21:36,091
So you're turning the knob.

244
00:21:36,091 --> 00:21:38,731
It's like around 1K a little past it.

245
00:21:38,731 --> 00:21:45,391
But when you're in the computer, it's like, I want, I'm going to 1,274 Hertz.

246
00:21:45,491 --> 00:21:53,091
And it's so precise and it can take some of that exploration out of it, I think in a way.

247
00:21:53,431 --> 00:22:04,940
Yeah, yeah, and I think, um and I think a lot of, you know, software tools are very like
completionist, like they have every single feature you could probably want.

248
00:22:04,940 --> 00:22:09,604
ah You know, like if it's an EQ, it's like make as many bands as you want.

249
00:22:09,604 --> 00:22:11,071
You can have 4,000.

250
00:22:11,071 --> 00:22:19,692
ah But, know, on like a mixing board, it's maybe four, maybe five.

251
00:22:19,852 --> 00:22:22,274
And I think like

252
00:22:22,412 --> 00:22:30,668
You know, it's even more limited in the realm of like a guitar pedal or, um, like a Euro
rack module.

253
00:22:30,668 --> 00:22:34,951
It's like, you know, there's only so many knobs.

254
00:22:34,951 --> 00:22:39,553
we put double the number of knobs, it would be double the price and nobody would buy it.

255
00:22:41,535 --> 00:22:50,401
so I think it's, uh, it's a really cool medium where, you know, you can't do everything.

256
00:22:50,541 --> 00:22:52,042
And I think that's okay.

257
00:22:52,386 --> 00:22:58,299
Like you can do a lot of things and you can kind of like work with that.

258
00:22:58,299 --> 00:23:08,955
I think it's really interesting to kind of like, you know, reason with what you have,
like, you know, I want to do X, Y, Z.

259
00:23:09,595 --> 00:23:14,258
I can't do that exactly, or I don't have one particular tool that will let me do that.

260
00:23:14,258 --> 00:23:22,602
But, you know, if I combine this and grab that and kind of use them together in this way,
I hadn't thought of before, like all of a sudden.

261
00:23:22,990 --> 00:23:28,990
you know, I'm 95 % of the way that to what I was trying to do.

262
00:23:29,110 --> 00:23:32,810
And I've got something, you know, much more interesting.

263
00:23:32,810 --> 00:23:40,470
Like you've probably got all these cool like byproducts or you've thought of a new way to
use these things that you could, you know, using the next jam and the next jam and the

264
00:23:40,470 --> 00:23:41,510
next jam.

265
00:23:41,510 --> 00:23:51,206
Um, and you just like making these connections, um, in a way that I, I feel like is a
little less, um,

266
00:23:52,089 --> 00:23:56,544
you know, rewarding when you're just telling this thing exactly what to do.

267
00:23:56,544 --> 00:24:12,192
Um, I think, I think it's, it's just, it's just more fun to, um, to do that exploring and
find, find a way there that you didn't know before.

268
00:24:15,056 --> 00:24:22,658
Yeah, when there's only a few knobs and controls you're more likely to twist them and turn
them and play around.

269
00:24:23,038 --> 00:24:24,477
You did a really cool thing.

270
00:24:24,477 --> 00:24:31,621
I think it's in uh Ridge Walk, which that's the looper if I'm not confusing them right.

271
00:24:34,442 --> 00:24:35,082
If that's...

272
00:24:35,082 --> 00:24:37,849
uh

273
00:24:37,849 --> 00:24:39,490
a granular engine.

274
00:24:39,613 --> 00:24:39,983
Okay.

275
00:24:39,983 --> 00:24:40,304
Yeah.

276
00:24:40,304 --> 00:24:52,716
As I'm saying, I'm like, I don't know if looper is the best way to put it, but it does
like, but you did it in a really cool way where not everything gets through.

277
00:24:52,716 --> 00:24:54,658
There's a threshold control.

278
00:24:55,259 --> 00:25:02,946
So that means I can play quiet and doesn't get involved in all this looping granular
stuff, but then I can.

279
00:25:03,167 --> 00:25:05,629
dig in a little bit and then it comes through.

280
00:25:05,629 --> 00:25:15,906
But I love the way you decided to do this kind of circle that the volume is represented by
the circle that gets bigger when it's louder and smaller when it's quiet.

281
00:25:15,906 --> 00:25:18,457
And then you make the circle for the threshold.

282
00:25:19,237 --> 00:25:27,704
You could have done a very precise, you know, VU meter and we could have seen the numbers
and how many decibels we have to play at.

283
00:25:28,225 --> 00:25:31,818
But something about that circle and

284
00:25:31,818 --> 00:25:36,381
And it does read out the numbers, but it's inviting.

285
00:25:36,381 --> 00:25:39,774
And it's like, no, I wanted to get this much of the circle.

286
00:25:39,774 --> 00:25:45,448
And it got me playing in a way that I was trying to interact with the plugin a little bit
more.

287
00:25:45,448 --> 00:25:55,285
And sometimes you lose that inside the computer with some of the digital stuff that's not
responsive to envelopes and volume levels and stuff.

288
00:25:55,426 --> 00:25:58,846
So that was a fun.

289
00:25:58,846 --> 00:26:09,893
approach that it brought back and it reminds me of this trick I used to like to do before
I had a computer at all to record and with vocals I would set up like a condenser mic to

290
00:26:09,893 --> 00:26:22,091
sing into that was kind of the main mic and then I'd put a dynamic mic about arms length
away and that would be going into a delay and it would only really be audible when I sang

291
00:26:22,091 --> 00:26:27,847
louder so kind of certain words would bust through and hit the delay and now you can

292
00:26:27,847 --> 00:26:33,528
certainly program that and set up effects chains and stuff and be really precise.

293
00:26:33,789 --> 00:26:36,149
But I always kind of loved that.

294
00:26:36,710 --> 00:26:38,710
I didn't always know what I was going to get.

295
00:26:38,710 --> 00:26:46,272
I didn't know if the words were going to go through until it was recorded and then that's
what you got and you were just stuck with it.

296
00:26:47,232 --> 00:26:53,044
I just think that what you're doing invites that kind of experimentation, exploration.

297
00:26:53,044 --> 00:26:56,575
It's a great tagline really, the open-minded curious.

298
00:26:57,107 --> 00:27:04,050
way of looking at it because it forces you to just see what happens when I play with it
and interact with it.

299
00:27:04,050 --> 00:27:12,253
And because of that, a lot of the times when I'm trying to, that I've been trying to learn
these plugins of yours, I just get kind of lost in making the music.

300
00:27:12,293 --> 00:27:22,578
that, that mission of, um, I'm going to learn this thing, which is a lot of times for me,
the secondary mission anyway, I want to make music.

301
00:27:22,578 --> 00:27:25,919
So when I'm playing with your stuff, I find myself

302
00:27:26,101 --> 00:27:30,103
kind of throwing the Learn It out the window and just be like, this sounds cool.

303
00:27:30,979 --> 00:27:41,166
Yeah, yeah man, no that's awesome to hear I think like You know there's When we have such
cool tools out there.

304
00:27:41,166 --> 00:27:50,633
I think there can be a tendency to Feel like you have to learn every nook and cranny of it
ah And I've never been that way as a musician.

305
00:27:50,633 --> 00:27:53,645
I feel like every single Thing in this room.

306
00:27:53,645 --> 00:27:58,358
I understand maybe 10 % of but I know how to

307
00:27:58,389 --> 00:28:05,523
access that 10 % and use it in a way that I like and you know that makes results that I'm
happy with.

308
00:28:05,523 --> 00:28:19,220
ah And I tried to kind of do that with the plugins as well where it's like you know
there's a little something for everyone ah but if you you just open it up and just look at

309
00:28:19,220 --> 00:28:25,033
what's on the front panel and never even like dig into the deeper settings or whatever
like that's totally cool.

310
00:28:26,230 --> 00:28:31,373
You know, the goal is that you get lost in it and you know, and you're not thinking about
it.

311
00:28:31,373 --> 00:28:43,510
Uh, and maybe one day, you know, down the line, you're like, I don't understand what the
setting does or, I just found out about this, you know, esoteric setting in the settings

312
00:28:43,510 --> 00:28:44,900
menu or whatever.

313
00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:47,982
Like, you know, that kind of like opens up a whole new world.

314
00:28:47,982 --> 00:28:53,405
But I think the real goal is like that experience of literally just making music.

315
00:28:53,405 --> 00:28:55,686
ah

316
00:28:56,006 --> 00:29:00,710
And it's really cool to hear about you like using it with guitar as well.

317
00:29:00,710 --> 00:29:11,258
ah Because, know, obviously being software, I imagine it's mostly used with stuff that's
also in the box.

318
00:29:11,258 --> 00:29:21,246
But I really tried to tune these things to work for, you know, ah kind of, I guess like

319
00:29:21,718 --> 00:29:25,750
Sounds and like soft sense and stuff that have a little bit less dynamic range.

320
00:29:25,750 --> 00:29:31,242
They're a bit more like, you know dialed in or You know live performance.

321
00:29:31,242 --> 00:29:39,766
um I Tried to kind of Make sure that you know, both both groups would be satisfied and
have fun with it

322
00:29:40,032 --> 00:29:40,812
Hmm.

323
00:29:41,893 --> 00:29:54,320
I have to imagine making a plugin is in a way a little bit like arranging a song nowadays
because we can make infinite tracks.

324
00:29:54,320 --> 00:30:01,634
I can have every sound ever come in and you could certainly put more control.

325
00:30:01,634 --> 00:30:03,005
I mean, you did a lot with graphics.

326
00:30:03,005 --> 00:30:06,626
You left a lot of room for that just for the visual experience.

327
00:30:08,064 --> 00:30:12,498
How did you decide what to bring in and what to leave out?

328
00:30:12,498 --> 00:30:20,858
Because I'm guessing there's a lot of stuff happening that you could have gave parameters
for, but maybe decided, no, I'm not going to do that.

329
00:30:20,858 --> 00:30:23,100
Let's keep it cleaner.

330
00:30:23,261 --> 00:30:25,583
How did you go about that?

331
00:30:26,038 --> 00:30:36,445
Yeah, think every product has a core idea or thesis to it.

332
00:30:37,386 --> 00:30:39,987
And everything really needs to serve that.

333
00:30:41,849 --> 00:30:48,254
I think that core aspect of the plugin is really what's unique about it.

334
00:30:48,254 --> 00:30:52,417
um It doesn't even have to be a plugin, it could be anything.

335
00:30:52,417 --> 00:30:54,868
um Guitar pedal or...

336
00:30:54,924 --> 00:30:56,634
your rec module or whatever.

337
00:30:57,635 --> 00:31:02,896
But I think there's a core idea of like, why should this exist?

338
00:31:02,896 --> 00:31:04,777
What is unique about this?

339
00:31:04,777 --> 00:31:13,299
Why wouldn't, like, why would I bother building this as opposed to using something that's
already out there and, you know, some other talented person already built?

340
00:31:13,299 --> 00:31:24,898
um So I think, you know, I definitely start from there um and kind of think about like,
okay, what is this thing?

341
00:31:24,898 --> 00:31:26,128
What is this abstract idea?

342
00:31:26,128 --> 00:31:27,499
What is cool about this?

343
00:31:27,499 --> 00:31:31,200
um And from there, I kind of expand on it.

344
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:50,245
um So like, for example, with Ridgewalk, you know, the core idea is basically like this
granular algorithm that you can kind of, um you know, direct in a particular way.

345
00:31:50,245 --> 00:31:53,346
Like you can kind of scan through the

346
00:31:53,487 --> 00:31:59,587
buffer from forward to backward, can scan through it from backward to forward, can scan
through it randomly, whatever.

347
00:32:00,327 --> 00:32:07,247
That's something that I use in my music all the time, like, you know, building a patch
like that on the Euro Rack.

348
00:32:08,447 --> 00:32:15,707
So I started from that idea, and then I started thinking about like, okay, what enhances
that?

349
00:32:16,687 --> 00:32:22,187
So that's where the whole like sound on sound looper came into play, because I thought it
would be cool.

350
00:32:22,606 --> 00:32:24,326
Like, hey, how do you refresh this buffer?

351
00:32:24,326 --> 00:32:26,306
How do you add to it?

352
00:32:27,366 --> 00:32:37,146
And from there, that became like a layered history looper thing that's going on.

353
00:32:39,246 --> 00:32:50,346
those of leaps from the original idea, I think, are what really kind of make it so
interesting.

354
00:32:50,722 --> 00:33:00,270
But to answer your question, think like the stuff that you leave out, tend to, you know, I
really try to respect like the environment that these plugins are being used in.

355
00:33:00,270 --> 00:33:09,537
Um, so, you know, in a, in a DAW, like, you know, you've got a million EQs or reverbs
delays.

356
00:33:09,537 --> 00:33:11,149
Everybody's got a reverb plugin.

357
00:33:11,149 --> 00:33:12,129
They love a delay plugin.

358
00:33:12,129 --> 00:33:13,340
They love whatever.

359
00:33:15,382 --> 00:33:20,704
so I felt like I didn't really need to reinvent the wheel in that respect.

360
00:33:20,704 --> 00:33:21,274
so much.

361
00:33:21,274 --> 00:33:40,365
um You know, I didn't feel much, I guess I would say like responsibility to include, you
know, every single possible nice to have because you're running in this environment that's

362
00:33:40,365 --> 00:33:45,207
like so super powered, like you can do anything in it.

363
00:33:45,848 --> 00:33:49,401
And you know, that makes it a little easier for me.

364
00:33:49,401 --> 00:33:50,585
I can kind of like

365
00:33:50,585 --> 00:33:52,576
pair things down and keep them relatively simple.

366
00:33:52,576 --> 00:34:07,420
um And I try to just keep it, you as atomic as possible while also being um unique and
something that people would want to use.

367
00:34:08,042 --> 00:34:19,656
And I think like just in testing or kind of once you've got like an alpha build of
something, that's where you can kind of like start using the thing and being like, this is

368
00:34:19,656 --> 00:34:20,258
cool.

369
00:34:20,258 --> 00:34:28,074
But like what would put this over the top and make it amazing would be you know such and
such And once you get like friends playing with it and stuff.

370
00:34:28,074 --> 00:34:41,984
That's where you kind of like go from there ah But I would say like in general I kind of I
operate with a very like conservative mindset and we're like I'm usually withholding ideas

371
00:34:41,984 --> 00:34:48,608
and features as opposed to like throwing everything in there and I think that really helps
like

372
00:34:48,652 --> 00:34:51,393
solidify the idea of like, what is this thing?

373
00:34:51,393 --> 00:34:52,997
Why would I use this?

374
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:56,200
Yeah, good point.

375
00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:01,883
Cause you could have had like a whole page of effects like chorus, reverb, flanger.

376
00:35:02,003 --> 00:35:10,338
And a lot of things tend to do that, but I don't ever really find myself gravitating
towards those effects.

377
00:35:10,338 --> 00:35:17,251
I usually just bring in the reverb I want or another chorus or something else that I've
already got.

378
00:35:18,052 --> 00:35:23,975
And it allows you to focus a bit on what you're offering in that.

379
00:35:24,573 --> 00:35:31,292
nice small area where I can see things and it's nothing too overwhelming.

380
00:35:31,545 --> 00:35:32,335
Yeah.

381
00:35:33,676 --> 00:35:34,176
Yeah.

382
00:35:34,176 --> 00:35:51,043
You know, it's, uh, it's always just that like kind of negotiation between, um, you know,
what, what do I think is cool about this and what would, why would people want to use

383
00:35:51,043 --> 00:35:51,903
this?

384
00:35:53,364 --> 00:36:00,027
and I think my task is mostly to convince people that it's

385
00:36:00,384 --> 00:36:12,890
interesting and package it in a way that feels usable and natural as opposed to adding
every bell and whistle I can think of that would you know maybe draw people into something

386
00:36:12,890 --> 00:36:25,645
that they don't understand as much uh because I you know you totally could like say oh
it's got 20 built-in effects like all this crazy stuff and I think that kind of stuff like

387
00:36:25,645 --> 00:36:27,526
um

388
00:36:28,034 --> 00:36:31,779
you know, is flashy and works from a marketing perspective.

389
00:36:31,779 --> 00:36:35,985
ah But I want people to actually use this stuff and enjoy it.

390
00:36:35,985 --> 00:36:38,088
And I want it to help them make music.

391
00:36:38,088 --> 00:36:44,276
And, you know, I would rather people not buy it than they buy it and it just sits there
and they never use it.

392
00:36:44,276 --> 00:36:46,218
And they feel disappointed about that.

393
00:36:46,847 --> 00:36:47,747
Hmm.

394
00:36:48,468 --> 00:36:49,098
Yeah, right.

395
00:36:49,098 --> 00:36:52,269
You could have a couple extra bullet points in the features.

396
00:36:53,270 --> 00:36:56,491
I would say includes all of these effects.

397
00:36:58,212 --> 00:36:59,600
But it is nice.

398
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,995
I do appreciate that a lot more and more these days.

399
00:37:02,995 --> 00:37:05,675
Something that kind of does its job.

400
00:37:05,696 --> 00:37:12,238
And it's the thing I'll go to when I want that and not trying to do everything all the
time.

401
00:37:13,036 --> 00:37:27,437
Yeah, yeah, it's a very, mean, coming from my like background with, with your Iraq
modular, like everything in that format is so stripped down.

402
00:37:27,598 --> 00:37:35,464
You know, I mean, I mean, the original format is literally like you're patching the
oscillator into the filter into the VCA, whatever.

403
00:37:35,464 --> 00:37:42,550
um But it's, you know, it's a more like mature.

404
00:37:42,785 --> 00:37:50,021
environment now, but it's still very common for like, you know, a delay is just a delay.

405
00:37:50,021 --> 00:37:54,765
It doesn't have any reverb built in.

406
00:37:54,765 --> 00:38:02,291
Oftentimes it doesn't have any kind of like tape effect or warble because you can add that
with an LFO.

407
00:38:02,572 --> 00:38:09,297
And I think that that's kind of like where I'm the background that I'm coming from is
like.

408
00:38:09,297 --> 00:38:10,918
um

409
00:38:11,714 --> 00:38:15,079
There's so many things out there that just do their job so well already.

410
00:38:15,079 --> 00:38:16,821
Like let's not reinvent the wheel.

411
00:38:16,821 --> 00:38:21,216
Let's kind of, you know, do something cool with the sum of our parts here.

412
00:38:23,595 --> 00:38:27,006
How long have you been into the modular experience?

413
00:38:29,179 --> 00:38:34,101
so I started with modular in college.

414
00:38:35,763 --> 00:38:45,608
I had this really awesome, um, professor who kind of like straddled the music and computer
science department.

415
00:38:45,608 --> 00:38:50,470
Um, for context, I was a computer science major.

416
00:38:51,711 --> 00:38:57,674
and I was one credit short of a music minor, which is still a little sad.

417
00:38:59,829 --> 00:39:11,150
But I had this really awesome professor, his name is Jeff Snyder, and he has a company
that's called Snyder Phonics, where he builds like just some really awesome stuff.

418
00:39:11,150 --> 00:39:23,670
Like he's been building like a, he has an electronic version of a bass and a lap steel
guitar where it's like totally like, you play it, but it's like totally synthesized.

419
00:39:24,427 --> 00:39:25,282
Hmm.

420
00:39:25,282 --> 00:39:36,472
But anyway, he had a course that was just called like, I don't know, like studio
techniques or something like that, where we started so basic.

421
00:39:36,472 --> 00:39:40,495
We started at like, this is a cable and this is how you wrap it.

422
00:39:40,495 --> 00:39:45,999
ah Yeah.

423
00:39:47,621 --> 00:39:49,323
Yeah.

424
00:39:49,323 --> 00:39:52,605
And then we got into like, this is a DAW.

425
00:39:52,605 --> 00:39:53,817
ah

426
00:39:53,817 --> 00:39:58,170
This is how it records sound, know, samples, sample rate, buffers, whatever.

427
00:39:58,170 --> 00:40:12,641
m And kind of like, you know, to me, the like holy grail of that class was that he had uh
put together like a pretty robust Euro rack system.

428
00:40:12,641 --> 00:40:20,306
um I don't know how he convinced the department that that was worth the money, but there
was like this,

429
00:40:20,364 --> 00:40:24,415
you pretty substantial like Euro-Rack system in the classroom.

430
00:40:24,735 --> 00:40:36,939
And, you know, one of the assignments was like, you had to book time to come into the
space.

431
00:40:36,939 --> 00:40:45,361
um And the task was to like record a song with the modular.

432
00:40:45,901 --> 00:40:48,682
And how you did that was completely up to you.

433
00:40:48,682 --> 00:40:49,772
You could...

434
00:40:50,218 --> 00:40:52,839
live track something, do it all in one take.

435
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:58,342
You could sample off like different parts of it and, you know, chop that up in the DAW.

436
00:41:00,804 --> 00:41:02,765
you know, it was just totally up to you.

437
00:41:02,925 --> 00:41:12,621
And I think that experience of like booking like two hours, you know, at like 11 PM on a
Tuesday or whatever, and just sitting with this thing and being like, what the hell is

438
00:41:12,621 --> 00:41:13,491
this?

439
00:41:13,772 --> 00:41:14,912
What am I going to do with this?

440
00:41:14,912 --> 00:41:17,193
How do I work with this?

441
00:41:17,193 --> 00:41:18,434
Um,

442
00:41:19,176 --> 00:41:22,988
That was that just ended up being a really cool experience.

443
00:41:22,988 --> 00:41:36,766
m Because at first I had no idea what I was doing, but, you know, going back to what we
were saying before, like forcing yourself to sit down with it and um kind of grapple with

444
00:41:36,766 --> 00:41:42,799
it and figure out what you're going to do, like what you want to do and how do do it?

445
00:41:42,799 --> 00:41:48,302
um That was just like a really meaningful experience for me.

446
00:41:48,877 --> 00:41:51,472
um and i think

447
00:41:53,423 --> 00:42:03,203
You know, I think it's just so cool to like, in a classroom setting like that, you know,
kind of get the academic side of stuff like, this is an oscillator, this is a filter, this

448
00:42:03,203 --> 00:42:04,583
is what it's doing.

449
00:42:04,723 --> 00:42:12,883
But then to actually go in there and sit down with this thing and being like, whoa, if I
just like listen to the oscillator itself, it sounds crazy.

450
00:42:12,883 --> 00:42:16,983
But then once I put it into the filter, I actually understand what it's doing.

451
00:42:18,463 --> 00:42:23,143
And just kind of like having that experience really.

452
00:42:23,820 --> 00:42:32,897
like solidified like kind of the usefulness of the format and it ended up just really
clicking for me.

453
00:42:32,897 --> 00:42:48,330
um So once I graduated college and got a job, it was a goal of mine to like set up a home
studio um and Modular, like I knew Modular was gonna be a part of that.

454
00:42:51,519 --> 00:42:58,825
That's cool that you got the time to get the hands-on experience, you know, just tweak and
play with it.

455
00:43:01,088 --> 00:43:02,530
Cause I think you need that.

456
00:43:02,530 --> 00:43:11,938
You kind of need that with everything really, but something like that to really get why we
would want it, why we want to use it, go through all that trouble.

457
00:43:13,078 --> 00:43:20,962
Yeah, and even I mean, it's it's just so different than any other way you would make
music.

458
00:43:20,962 --> 00:43:24,544
um Like I remember.

459
00:43:25,405 --> 00:43:29,807
Like sitting there, like just staring at this thing and thinking about like.

460
00:43:30,468 --> 00:43:35,870
Like the oscillators just make noise forever, whether or not you're listening to them.

461
00:43:36,131 --> 00:43:42,145
And like if you're someone who's like coming from like a guitar background or a piano
background or whatever, it's like this thing only.

462
00:43:42,145 --> 00:43:45,017
make sound when you actually like hit it.

463
00:43:45,758 --> 00:43:56,525
But this thing is sitting there making sound and it's like my choice whether or not to
listen to it or to use it for you know whatever other reason I want to use it for.

464
00:43:56,525 --> 00:44:04,610
ah So it's really like ah it's like an orchestra at your fingertips if you want to use it
that way.

465
00:44:04,610 --> 00:44:09,868
ah You know everything's just doing its job and it's ready you know.

466
00:44:09,868 --> 00:44:12,519
ready and willing, like whatever you want to do with it.

467
00:44:12,519 --> 00:44:25,975
ah So as somebody who had kind of come from a band background and kind of like a
songwriter background, it was really enticing because it's like, oh, this is a band that I

468
00:44:25,975 --> 00:44:28,646
don't have to convince.

469
00:44:29,558 --> 00:44:31,927
I don't have to convince them that this song is cool.

470
00:44:31,927 --> 00:44:35,368
They'll just do it.

471
00:44:35,489 --> 00:44:39,256
So I think it's a great platform for former ah

472
00:44:39,256 --> 00:44:41,677
control freaks and band leaders.

473
00:44:44,073 --> 00:44:47,802
the whole DAW in general is nice for that.

474
00:44:48,074 --> 00:44:57,087
Yeah, it is funny how many, you know, like modular folks that I know, like they have
basically, we all have the same background.

475
00:44:57,087 --> 00:45:04,419
It's like, yeah, I used to play guitar in bands and then for whatever reason, this like
format really appealed to me and I just ran with it ever since.

476
00:45:05,340 --> 00:45:09,801
And I think we're maybe the folks that don't work well with others.

477
00:45:12,243 --> 00:45:26,487
Yeah, in a way, I think it brought me full circle that, or maybe 180, that having full
control over everything and being able to do everything has now made me enjoy other

478
00:45:26,487 --> 00:45:28,848
people's input a lot more.

479
00:45:29,128 --> 00:45:32,589
You know, like I don't even want to think about what the bass is going to do.

480
00:45:32,589 --> 00:45:38,011
Just, yeah, come up with something, you know, whatever you come up with and we'll react to
that.

481
00:45:38,011 --> 00:45:39,214
We'll work on it.

482
00:45:39,214 --> 00:45:39,744
Mm-hmm.

483
00:45:39,744 --> 00:45:41,505
I get a big kick out of that now.

484
00:45:41,505 --> 00:45:47,567
It's almost as if I've programmed the DAW to do something random, like in the key of the
song.

485
00:45:47,727 --> 00:45:50,188
And then, all right, now what all I do?

486
00:45:50,188 --> 00:45:52,409
How will I compliment that?

487
00:45:52,990 --> 00:45:56,731
Instead of trying to control it, no, no, play this, play this, because I want to play
this.

488
00:45:58,468 --> 00:46:08,991
Yeah, I think I don't get the experience of playing with people very much unfortunately,
but I Mean it's really cool when it does happen.

489
00:46:08,991 --> 00:46:20,472
It's just rare for a number of reasons um But I really love the experience of going to a
Going to a show and just kind of like turning off the part of your brain.

490
00:46:20,472 --> 00:46:23,027
That's like What would I do?

491
00:46:23,027 --> 00:46:25,015
How would I have played that?

492
00:46:25,015 --> 00:46:26,586
You know what?

493
00:46:26,964 --> 00:46:28,855
What would I have done after that transition?

494
00:46:28,855 --> 00:46:30,275
Like it doesn't matter.

495
00:46:30,275 --> 00:46:41,940
Just let it like wash over you and really listen and appreciate what someone else is doing
and you know, just kind of Chill, you don't have to Don't have to contribute to everything

496
00:46:41,940 --> 00:46:55,646
ah So I really enjoy that that process that's probably like the most analogous for me is
just you know that that kind of intentional listening and appreciating what somebody

497
00:46:55,646 --> 00:46:57,026
else's brain and

498
00:46:57,026 --> 00:46:57,988
fingers.

499
00:46:58,012 --> 00:46:59,848
Thought would be cool in that moment.

500
00:47:00,223 --> 00:47:01,043
Hmm.

501
00:47:02,144 --> 00:47:02,815
Yeah, right.

502
00:47:02,815 --> 00:47:15,193
Just to take it in and soak it up and see where, where it goes instead of trying to, oh,
that's kind of in a way like the critic too.

503
00:47:15,193 --> 00:47:23,779
think when you think that way too much, then when you're making stuff, that voice is still
very loud.

504
00:47:24,039 --> 00:47:25,390
Maybe you shouldn't have done that.

505
00:47:25,390 --> 00:47:26,901
Maybe there's a better way.

506
00:47:26,901 --> 00:47:29,522
And so much.

507
00:47:30,003 --> 00:47:38,186
These days I'm really appreciating letting things happen and going with what happens and
not questioning it as much.

508
00:47:38,507 --> 00:47:49,067
I kind of noticed that, at least in some of the videos I've seen of you performing, that
it seems like, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you do this in a, I don't

509
00:47:49,067 --> 00:47:57,475
know if it's improvisational, but in a more kind of like a long flow and not so much, um,

510
00:47:58,336 --> 00:48:05,843
going back and fixing and changing things, but more letting things kind of grow naturally.

511
00:48:07,155 --> 00:48:18,603
Yeah, guess I would say like those performances are really based around like giving
yourself levers to pull.

512
00:48:18,603 --> 00:48:30,831
ah You know, like a lot of times I'll set up like, okay, here's like three kind of ambient
atmospheres or whatever.

513
00:48:31,352 --> 00:48:35,434
And, you know, maybe like a melody to go with each one and

514
00:48:37,808 --> 00:48:49,937
You know then from there you're just kind of like Segwaying through it how it feels
natural ah And the improvisation comes from like, you know, how long do I sit on?

515
00:48:50,578 --> 00:48:57,824
this one particular part like You know, when do I feel inclined to kind of introduce a
variation?

516
00:48:57,946 --> 00:49:05,670
or maybe The machine just did something cool and I decided to play off of it ah

517
00:49:06,074 --> 00:49:10,938
It's kind of how I've recorded albums as well, especially in my last album.

518
00:49:10,938 --> 00:49:24,329
m I think at the heart of kind of each of the pieces was really like a core recording that
just kind of went all the way through.

519
00:49:24,650 --> 00:49:32,837
And, know, semi-generative, semi-manually performed.

520
00:49:32,837 --> 00:49:34,598
um

521
00:49:35,801 --> 00:49:54,758
But I think a lot of uh the other stuff that happens in the piece kind of branches off of
that, where I'm kind of listening to what the machine and I made, this kind of bedrock for

522
00:49:54,758 --> 00:49:55,798
a track.

523
00:49:55,839 --> 00:49:59,270
And I'm like, the filter kind of opened in a cool way there.

524
00:49:59,270 --> 00:50:02,821
Maybe this should be a part where we amp everything up.

525
00:50:02,821 --> 00:50:04,901
Maybe that's where the...

526
00:50:05,176 --> 00:50:07,267
you know, we bring in the hook or whatever.

527
00:50:07,267 --> 00:50:27,037
um So I try to, like I always try to have a combination of, you know, what's performative
and what's kind of like scripted or kind of like, I don't know, scripted performance or

528
00:50:27,037 --> 00:50:27,957
performed script.

529
00:50:27,957 --> 00:50:29,988
ah

530
00:50:29,988 --> 00:50:30,278
right?

531
00:50:30,278 --> 00:50:36,067
Like you're not, I mean, I see like I'm looking at what you have right now and there are a
lot of wires connected.

532
00:50:36,067 --> 00:50:37,958
A lot of cables go into different places.

533
00:50:37,958 --> 00:50:45,133
It's not like you're starting with nothing and do like the signal generators coming out.

534
00:50:45,133 --> 00:50:53,255
And then, you know, so I think that's like true about performance with the laptop and all.

535
00:50:53,262 --> 00:50:53,707
Mm-hmm.

536
00:50:53,707 --> 00:51:05,187
lot of people think that once you have the laptop, you kind of just open it and hit play
and the song goes, but you're basically building your instrument inside there.

537
00:51:05,187 --> 00:51:14,507
If you're using MIDI controllers and mapping them and coming up with songs and parts,
there's a lot of prep work that goes into that.

538
00:51:14,507 --> 00:51:23,227
So I could see how you must need to do that, especially when you have all kinds of choices
and modules to work with.

539
00:51:23,500 --> 00:51:30,212
Yeah, and the other thing is it's very ephemeral as well.

540
00:51:30,812 --> 00:51:38,285
You kinda gotta hit record, especially with a patch or whatever.

541
00:51:38,285 --> 00:51:46,657
If I came back to the same thing tomorrow and turned everything off and turned it on the
next day, who knows what's gonna happen?

542
00:51:46,657 --> 00:51:48,343
ah

543
00:51:48,343 --> 00:51:52,067
are in a different relationship to each other, right?

544
00:51:52,067 --> 00:51:59,409
tuning or some stuff like kind of dumps all of its audio buffers when the power cycles.

545
00:51:59,409 --> 00:52:06,281
um So there's only so much you can really make sure happens.

546
00:52:06,281 --> 00:52:14,773
So you have to do it in the moment to a certain extent, which is I think powerful.

547
00:52:14,773 --> 00:52:18,124
I mean, that's kind of when everything is most fresh as well.

548
00:52:19,167 --> 00:52:20,007
Yeah.

549
00:52:20,969 --> 00:52:25,272
Do you find it hard to unplug things?

550
00:52:25,292 --> 00:52:26,693
say like what you have right now, right?

551
00:52:26,693 --> 00:52:31,397
Is it like, I can't touch anything because I've got this thing going or is it?

552
00:52:32,759 --> 00:52:33,381
Yeah.

553
00:52:33,381 --> 00:52:39,207
jam by like unplugging basically everything.

554
00:52:39,888 --> 00:52:40,889
Yeah, it's like...

555
00:52:40,889 --> 00:52:41,990
um

556
00:52:44,502 --> 00:52:45,682
It's just...

557
00:52:46,023 --> 00:52:46,502
I don't know.

558
00:52:46,502 --> 00:52:55,507
I find that I can't really go into anything with like something's being prescribed or it's
not really gonna work.

559
00:52:57,508 --> 00:53:01,710
I just kind of have to start completely fresh or I'm not gonna do anything.

560
00:53:04,073 --> 00:53:12,740
There must be a point in the process where you realize I have to record or I have to turn
this into something.

561
00:53:12,740 --> 00:53:23,347
Um, and I think that's true even when you're writing songs, when you're playing with other
people, there's a point where you have to decide like, this is going to be the thing we're

562
00:53:23,347 --> 00:53:24,818
working on right now.

563
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:29,662
Do you have any ways of knowing?

564
00:53:29,662 --> 00:53:30,955
Do you just let the

565
00:53:30,955 --> 00:53:36,635
recording run and just go or do you have any techniques you like?

566
00:53:36,725 --> 00:53:54,339
Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I'd call it a technique, but I feel I feel like I try not to
lose sight of the ultimate goal, which is making something musical, like making music.

567
00:53:55,400 --> 00:54:05,452
And for whatever I'm exploring, like if I've made a cool noise bed or kind of like
abstract

568
00:54:06,156 --> 00:54:07,627
rhythm or whatever.

569
00:54:07,807 --> 00:54:13,190
I try to always take it to the step past, like this is cool.

570
00:54:13,611 --> 00:54:22,135
And I try to take it to the next step, which is like, this is a really cool aspect of this
song.

571
00:54:22,956 --> 00:54:26,478
And I think of it like.

572
00:54:28,558 --> 00:54:34,763
um Like I'm really into impressionist painting, for example.

573
00:54:35,064 --> 00:54:51,929
And if you look at a lot of these paintings, like if you were to look at a painting of a
landscape or a painting of a pond or something, if you just cropped the painting to be the

574
00:54:51,929 --> 00:54:55,722
sky or the reflections in the water,

575
00:54:55,990 --> 00:54:59,252
It would like you would look at this and you'd be like, this is completely abstract.

576
00:54:59,252 --> 00:55:00,142
It's meaningless.

577
00:55:00,142 --> 00:55:00,953
Whatever.

578
00:55:00,953 --> 00:55:05,856
Like I don't like it's cool, but I don't know what I'm getting from this.

579
00:55:05,856 --> 00:55:14,201
But once you get the full picture, you know, and maybe there's a landscape or a cabin or
trees or whatever.

580
00:55:14,201 --> 00:55:22,045
All of a sudden you're like, wow, that is a really interesting way to paint a sky or to
paint the reflections in the water.

581
00:55:22,045 --> 00:55:24,006
ah

582
00:55:25,078 --> 00:55:34,722
And I feel like it's, you know, obviously the painter decided like, what is an interesting
way to paint the sky, but they didn't stop there.

583
00:55:35,262 --> 00:55:39,264
They took it a step further and contextualized it.

584
00:55:39,504 --> 00:55:43,066
So I would say that's what I try to do in my music.

585
00:55:43,066 --> 00:55:50,349
Um, I try to come up with something unique and interesting.

586
00:55:50,349 --> 00:55:53,263
Um, maybe it's like an

587
00:55:53,263 --> 00:55:58,883
a generative atmosphere or kind of a really interesting sound source or whatever.

588
00:56:00,543 --> 00:56:10,443
And I try to place that or build like a song or composition around that.

589
00:56:10,443 --> 00:56:14,383
And that's usually when I know that it's time to record.

590
00:56:15,403 --> 00:56:22,663
Once I feel like I've properly contextualized that thing and kind of succeeded in making
music.

591
00:56:22,766 --> 00:56:36,342
ah Obviously like everyone's definition of music is different and like a really awesome
noise bed to one person Could just be a track, you know upload to Spotify But for me

592
00:56:36,342 --> 00:56:51,518
personally, I I really appreciate when there's a bit of like ah There's something abstract
and it's working with or maybe against You know something a bit more colloquial like

593
00:56:51,832 --> 00:56:57,510
chord changes or a recognizable drum beat or a catchy melody or whatever.

594
00:56:57,835 --> 00:56:58,555
Hmm.

595
00:56:59,116 --> 00:57:12,763
That's a cool comparison because yeah, like if the sky doesn't really look like the sky
until you have some earth in there or even some clouds or planets or whatever you want to

596
00:57:12,763 --> 00:57:15,165
put in there, there's a context.

597
00:57:15,165 --> 00:57:24,795
But as you also said, like if you did crop in on that, someone might look at that and be
like, this is like really cool abstract.

598
00:57:24,795 --> 00:57:27,071
You know, I'm going to do my own interpretation.

599
00:57:27,957 --> 00:57:38,156
but to bring it in on some of the more familiar, and I've seen you playing some guitar in
there, for instance, that kind of grounds it a little bit.

600
00:57:38,357 --> 00:57:48,527
we can sort of, that's almost like the cabin you said, you know, it's recognizable more
so, or the beat that comes in.

601
00:57:49,060 --> 00:58:01,556
Yeah, it's kind of like the age old question of like keeping something instrumental or
adding vocals and even having, you know, like two lines of vocals or something can just

602
00:58:01,556 --> 00:58:05,888
make something feel so human.

603
00:58:07,470 --> 00:58:16,694
And I mean, my stuff is instrumental, but I try to make sure that there's some, there's
something that was performed in there.

604
00:58:16,750 --> 00:58:25,389
um that you can kind of like recognize as like, yeah, like a human made this.

605
00:58:26,133 --> 00:58:26,943
Hmm.

606
00:58:28,204 --> 00:58:30,476
I like those touches a lot actually.

607
00:58:30,476 --> 00:58:43,845
And I teach a sampling class for Berkeley online and some of it's like pretty abstract and
some of it is like making sounds with things you found in the kitchen or wherever in your

608
00:58:43,845 --> 00:58:44,735
house.

609
00:58:45,296 --> 00:58:56,043
And I almost always find when something human comes in, a voice, even if it's talking or
chatter or breathing, it just

610
00:58:57,033 --> 00:58:58,904
takes it to another level.

611
00:59:00,625 --> 00:59:07,888
Not to say like it's anything less without it, but I do really enjoy that element.

612
00:59:07,888 --> 00:59:12,389
That something alive was there, not just all these static things.

613
00:59:12,389 --> 00:59:16,251
And it makes the static things feel more alive on some level.

614
00:59:17,696 --> 00:59:18,827
Yeah, absolutely.

615
00:59:18,827 --> 00:59:27,391
um One of my favorite beats that I made with some friends, like, I don't know, probably a
decade ago.

616
00:59:27,692 --> 00:59:37,207
We all just like got together and I think we like recorded like, I forget, was like a
somebody had like a xylophone or clock and spiel or whatever and like we just like

617
00:59:37,207 --> 00:59:45,482
recorded a melody off of it but like nobody shut up so there's like all of these like chat
there's chatter in the background and like people laughing and

618
00:59:45,995 --> 00:59:48,256
I just like added like such a vibe to it.

619
00:59:48,256 --> 01:00:01,505
um And I've heard like, you know, some people like when they're recording like modular
like synth stuff, like they kind of they'll have like a room mic or like a god mic going

620
01:00:01,505 --> 01:00:15,604
um just to kind of like capture like just to like capture what what you were hearing like
in the space, you know, because like

621
01:00:15,746 --> 01:00:25,473
I mean, in a technical sense, maybe like something is really like resonating in the space
and like there's a real power to like this one particular like bass note that, you know,

622
01:00:25,473 --> 01:00:29,715
is integral to whatever you're producing.

623
01:00:29,715 --> 01:00:33,878
Um, or maybe there's just stuff going on.

624
01:00:33,878 --> 01:00:45,292
I mean, in this room that I'm in, like when I write music in the morning, there's birds
and, um, you know, insects and all kinds of stuff that's kind of going on.

625
01:00:45,292 --> 01:00:46,623
like right outside the window.

626
01:00:46,623 --> 01:00:53,170
ah And a lot of times that kind of like can catalyze what I'm doing.

627
01:00:53,391 --> 01:00:55,753
Like I'm thinking like, what should this melody be?

628
01:00:55,753 --> 01:01:03,942
And then like a bird kind of chimes in and I'm like, yeah, B flat sounds good here.

629
01:01:03,942 --> 01:01:07,979
So it would be cool to kind of incorporate that sort of thing sometimes.

630
01:01:07,979 --> 01:01:09,279
Hmm.

631
01:01:09,639 --> 01:01:19,839
I've become very loose about quiet while I'm recording or even like windows being open or
things like that.

632
01:01:19,839 --> 01:01:22,199
I love when that stuff gets in.

633
01:01:22,199 --> 01:01:29,339
was recording some stuff with my band and I was doing vocals, background vocals, and I had
all the windows and doors open.

634
01:01:29,339 --> 01:01:31,639
was like, okay, cool.

635
01:01:32,619 --> 01:01:33,899
I just see what happens in it.

636
01:01:33,899 --> 01:01:35,798
There's a spaciousness that it...

637
01:01:35,798 --> 01:01:36,559
brings to it.

638
01:01:36,559 --> 01:01:49,199
And sometimes, like you said, like, and that's a really great example that like the room
has a sound and I know in my room, depending where I stand, totally changes everything.

639
01:01:49,440 --> 01:02:01,770
So to have a mic that's capturing what it felt like to hear it, because sometimes when it
goes directly in to the digital recorder, something gets lost in translation.

640
01:02:02,274 --> 01:02:12,283
Yeah, I mean even if you're using like an amp simulator or something it doesn't, you know,
it doesn't really sound the same as actually like being in a space and having that

641
01:02:13,304 --> 01:02:14,962
kerfuffle going around.

642
01:02:14,962 --> 01:02:17,424
Yeah, just the madness of it.

643
01:02:17,484 --> 01:02:17,706
Yeah.

644
01:02:17,706 --> 01:02:19,811
Yeah.

645
01:02:20,979 --> 01:02:23,041
Yeah, that's cool.

646
01:02:23,322 --> 01:02:27,305
We should mention um Waymaker, the new one.

647
01:02:28,127 --> 01:02:30,159
Yeah, how do you explain that?

648
01:02:30,159 --> 01:02:36,175
this is, okay, like it's a sequencer, but that's not fair.

649
01:02:36,677 --> 01:02:38,498
It's like calling the other one a looper, I guess.

650
01:02:38,498 --> 01:02:39,432
m

651
01:02:39,432 --> 01:03:00,166
so I call it a it's a modular sequencer And I think it's it's modular in three ways if
you'll bear with me ah One is that it's it's super inspired by Euro rec It's not really

652
01:03:00,166 --> 01:03:05,420
inspired by a particular module or anything, but just the things that are available to you
and

653
01:03:05,420 --> 01:03:19,640
in Euro-rack where you can have one sequence that is maybe like, know, the pitches are
summed with another sequencer.

654
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:32,969
ah So one sequence is transposing another, or ah you could have a rhythmic sequence, which
is uh actually like clocking or progressing another sequencer.

655
01:03:32,969 --> 01:03:34,630
ah

656
01:03:35,063 --> 01:03:44,969
So you know, you can take the basic idea of, you know, play this pitch on, on step one and
play this pitch on step two.

657
01:03:45,210 --> 01:03:50,674
And you can start to play around with, you know, when do you actually play those steps?

658
01:03:50,674 --> 01:03:52,955
When do you step through the sequencer?

659
01:03:54,957 --> 01:03:59,160
you know, you could put some probability between those things.

660
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:03,052
So you have a rhythm, but it's only

661
01:04:03,552 --> 01:04:08,165
actually firing 50 % of the time and actually progressing you through that melody.

662
01:04:08,165 --> 01:04:11,958
So all of a sudden you've got like a melody that's repeating, but it's like, when does it
repeat?

663
01:04:11,958 --> 01:04:14,169
I don't know.

664
01:04:14,910 --> 01:04:29,740
So these are kind of like ah ideas that I've already, that I've always like really
appreciated and in Euro-rack where you can just kind of take something simple and kind of

665
01:04:29,881 --> 01:04:32,162
manipulate it and, and

666
01:04:32,718 --> 01:04:41,162
kind of combine it with other things that are relatively simple and get something more
complex out of it and more interesting.

667
01:04:41,803 --> 01:04:43,744
So it's inspired by modular.

668
01:04:43,884 --> 01:04:47,987
It ah actually functions in a modular way.

669
01:04:47,987 --> 01:04:59,333
So I think it has 10 different sequencers and utilities in there, which are each
relatively simple.

670
01:04:59,333 --> 01:05:01,774
You know, there's like a basic step sequencer.

671
01:05:01,966 --> 01:05:09,660
There's like a probabilistic sequencer, is kind of like, you know, what's the probability
of each note in the scale happening?

672
01:05:09,660 --> 01:05:18,395
There's like a morphing sequencer, which like randomly changes every, every loop, which is
fun.

673
01:05:18,495 --> 01:05:32,042
And you are free to kind of take these simple parts and create a customizable chain ah of,
of sequencers that are kind of interacting with each other that are

674
01:05:32,291 --> 01:05:44,156
you know, manipulating the output of one another or one of them is, you know, ah
progressing another one through its steps.

675
01:05:44,156 --> 01:05:52,799
So it's a totally customizable ah environment where you're combining kind of whatever you
want, basically.

676
01:05:53,239 --> 01:05:59,131
And then the last way that it's modular is that it ah can interact with my other plugins.

677
01:05:59,131 --> 01:06:00,381
So...

678
01:06:01,890 --> 01:06:14,320
My other plugins right now are basically um two flavors of loopers where, ah you know, one
of them is you can stack up to five loops at once.

679
01:06:14,681 --> 01:06:22,187
And the other one is kind of like a, like we said, as a looper running through a granular
algorithm.

680
01:06:22,187 --> 01:06:27,632
Waymaker can connect directly to those other plugins and kind of manipulate their pitches.

681
01:06:27,632 --> 01:06:30,554
So you can sequence the

682
01:06:31,266 --> 01:06:43,313
pitch of each of the loopers or you can, um, you know, make each grain and Ridgewalk have
like a percentage chance of going up an octave and just a lot of, a lot of fun stuff like

683
01:06:43,313 --> 01:06:43,523
that.

684
01:06:43,523 --> 01:06:56,860
Um, so I'm, I'm trying to build up a, you know, a unique ecosystem that's kind of similar
to something that you'd have in, in Euro Rack where it's like, you know, I've got

685
01:06:57,120 --> 01:06:58,221
something basic here.

686
01:06:58,221 --> 01:07:00,674
Like this is a delay.

687
01:07:00,674 --> 01:07:05,897
You know, it's got a, uh, it's got a delay time and it's got a feedback control.

688
01:07:06,178 --> 01:07:16,205
But if you pair it with something else, like, you know, now you're sequencing the delay
time or modulating it with an LFO or whatever, like all of a sudden it becomes like a

689
01:07:16,205 --> 01:07:17,206
totally different thing.

690
01:07:17,206 --> 01:07:23,910
Um, you know, like that's how you make a chorus or like a phaser or flanger or whatever.

691
01:07:23,910 --> 01:07:29,184
Um, you know, that's, it's born out of just taking a delay and

692
01:07:29,698 --> 01:07:30,519
doing stuff with it.

693
01:07:30,519 --> 01:07:44,455
ah So I tried to kind of ah take that ethos from Euro-rack where, you know, oftentimes
you're like messing around with something, you're like, this is cool.

694
01:07:44,455 --> 01:07:45,977
What if I took it one step further?

695
01:07:45,977 --> 01:07:50,812
ah Then you can load up Waymaker now and take it one step further if you want.

696
01:07:52,694 --> 01:07:59,468
It's pretty cool that they can communicate with each other like that and connect.

697
01:07:59,468 --> 01:08:08,985
And then you've got already with the other guys that you already have, like there are so
much variety in what they do.

698
01:08:09,446 --> 01:08:14,749
And now there's a lot, a lot of places you can go.

699
01:08:14,810 --> 01:08:16,971
And it's kind of stuff, I think where

700
01:08:17,792 --> 01:08:19,914
A very little bit goes a long way.

701
01:08:19,914 --> 01:08:24,960
So if you tried to do all that stuff, it'd probably be very chaotic, a couple subtle
things.

702
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:34,350
And then next thing you know, you might just have a really short loop or melody that is
constantly evolving and growing and morphing.

703
01:08:35,203 --> 01:08:35,703
Yeah.

704
01:08:35,703 --> 01:08:37,264
And that's, that's really the goal.

705
01:08:37,264 --> 01:08:55,394
Um, I mean, I think, you know, going back to the idea of like catalyzing inspiration, I, I
feel like, um you know, with way maker, I feel the most kind of satisfied with that

706
01:08:55,695 --> 01:08:59,717
because like coming up with a melody is such a, an

707
01:09:01,824 --> 01:09:18,421
Integral and like early part of songwriting usually You know, maybe you have some chords
maybe you have like an atmosphere you don't really know what to do with it um I Mean I

708
01:09:18,421 --> 01:09:30,726
love just like taking one of these Euro rack sequencers and like I don't know what it's
doing, but I'm gonna Patch it up to a sound and see what happens um

709
01:09:30,989 --> 01:09:46,852
And from that point, once you hear anything, then you can iterate on it and uh try to
steer it in a way that ah fits what you would do with it.

710
01:09:46,852 --> 01:09:54,979
uh But just starting from scratch, if you just sat me down on the piano, I don't know if
I'd come up with anything very good.

711
01:09:55,159 --> 01:10:00,163
So sometimes you need a little push and...

712
01:10:00,577 --> 01:10:09,550
I think, you know, I've actually like been using Waymaker a ton in my own music, ah which
is usually a good sign.

713
01:10:10,371 --> 01:10:20,355
If I'm like not so stressed out by the idea of like looking at this thing by the time I've
released it, it's usually a good thing.

714
01:10:20,355 --> 01:10:29,298
ah But it's, I definitely feel

715
01:10:29,938 --> 01:10:43,636
proud of how much in my experience and from the feedback I've gotten, just the inspiration
it can ah help people find, which has been really awesome to hear.

716
01:10:46,089 --> 01:10:49,122
Yeah, that's gotta be a really cool part of it.

717
01:10:49,243 --> 01:10:58,322
Just to, I love that whenever I make sound packs or something and people make music, I'm
just like, but you did that with those.

718
01:10:58,322 --> 01:11:01,275
Like it's always kind of blows my mind.

719
01:11:01,275 --> 01:11:03,897
Like, wow, how'd you do that?

720
01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:10,553
Yeah, and you're probably hearing it in like a context you never would have like imagined
it.

721
01:11:11,163 --> 01:11:19,356
like you're using like, I don't know, like my electric piano pack and you're like in your
uh metal song or something.

722
01:11:20,717 --> 01:11:22,421
Your harsh noise project.

723
01:11:22,421 --> 01:11:29,945
yeah, I'm actually surprised how often I can't tell and I don't recognize it when people
tell me I'm like, where is it?

724
01:11:29,945 --> 01:11:31,286
Like, it's that thing.

725
01:11:31,286 --> 01:11:32,126
Wow.

726
01:11:33,563 --> 01:11:49,447
Yeah, I mean it's it's the same for me where I mean people You know people see their own
value in something really it's like the You know beauty is in the eye of the beholder um

727
01:11:49,447 --> 01:12:01,670
You know people will buy something because it appeals to them to make X kind of music and
That's not something I would have ever thought to do with it um

728
01:12:02,252 --> 01:12:03,383
And that's just really cool.

729
01:12:03,383 --> 01:12:13,071
Like the idea that somebody else thought it was cool enough to kind of extend the usage in
that way.

730
01:12:14,673 --> 01:12:25,321
And, you know, sometimes that means I get a very valid feature request for something I'd
never considered because, you know, I don't work in a certain way.

731
01:12:26,323 --> 01:12:30,826
But that just makes the end result even stronger, I think.

732
01:12:31,229 --> 01:12:32,119
Mm-hmm.

733
01:12:32,500 --> 01:12:33,460
Right.

734
01:12:34,101 --> 01:12:35,431
It's really cool stuff.

735
01:12:35,431 --> 01:12:40,504
And it seems like you're kind of cranking them out at a pretty good pace.

736
01:12:40,885 --> 01:12:42,626
Because how long you been?

737
01:12:42,626 --> 01:12:44,507
Just a couple of years, right?

738
01:12:44,878 --> 01:12:55,918
Yeah, I think Weeping Wall, is my first plugin, I think that came out in December 2023.

739
01:12:57,998 --> 01:13:05,598
And that took me about maybe eight months to kind of put together.

740
01:13:08,218 --> 01:13:12,558
And I think Ridgewalk came out the summer after that.

741
01:13:12,578 --> 01:13:14,838
And now Waymaker has been about

742
01:13:15,490 --> 01:13:17,270
a little less than a year since Ridgewalk.

743
01:13:17,270 --> 01:13:24,533
um But it's getting faster.

744
01:13:24,533 --> 01:13:40,577
The development process is getting more efficient, which is good, just as I learn more
things um and can drill down to the core idea of what I'm trying to build a little bit

745
01:13:40,577 --> 01:13:42,218
more efficiently.

746
01:13:42,218 --> 01:13:44,198
um

747
01:13:45,023 --> 01:13:51,966
and also just like building things that are way more complex.

748
01:13:52,846 --> 01:14:05,831
I think Waymakers, it's got like double the lines of code of Ridgewalk and triple the
lines of code of Weeping Wall, but I managed to put it together and around the same time

749
01:14:05,831 --> 01:14:06,712
frame.

750
01:14:08,272 --> 01:14:12,480
So, you know, just it's...

751
01:14:12,480 --> 01:14:28,403
It's cool to see yourself get to a point where you can do something more ambitious um and
just be able to take a crazy idea and a crazier idea and an even crazier idea and kind of

752
01:14:28,403 --> 01:14:36,950
ah turn them into something that exists and people think is cool sometimes.

753
01:14:36,950 --> 01:14:40,894
ah But yeah, there's...

754
01:14:40,894 --> 01:14:41,734
uh

755
01:14:42,318 --> 01:14:44,126
plenty more in the pipeline as well.

756
01:14:44,126 --> 01:14:46,054
ah

757
01:14:47,606 --> 01:15:03,545
I know that there are at least like four things I want to build and for now it's uh it's
you know going strong enough that I think I'll be able to do that which is awesome because

758
01:15:03,545 --> 01:15:15,481
when I released Weeping Wall I was kind of like I don't know we'll see we'll see if anyone
cares about this or likes it or whatever and it's cool that almost two years later you

759
01:15:15,481 --> 01:15:17,782
know I'm I'm still doing it so

760
01:15:18,782 --> 01:15:22,216
It's just all about keeping it going as long as you can, really.

761
01:15:23,857 --> 01:15:27,571
They have a distinct vibe and feel to them.

762
01:15:27,571 --> 01:15:44,890
And now that there's three, there's uh some connective tissue between them that they feel
like the same company and they have a look and you know, I guess like it's sounds like it

763
01:15:44,890 --> 01:15:46,070
shouldn't matter.

764
01:15:46,070 --> 01:15:47,300
but it does matter.

765
01:15:47,300 --> 01:15:49,102
I want to look at something nice.

766
01:15:49,102 --> 01:15:55,486
And I find like the look you have for these to be inspiring and it's cool.

767
01:15:55,486 --> 01:16:04,796
And when I play with Ridgewalker, I want to watch my audio come up and I want to watch
those little like play head bumps.

768
01:16:04,796 --> 01:16:10,275
I don't even know what to call them, but I want to watch them go across it and hear what
it sounds like.

769
01:16:11,937 --> 01:16:15,628
changing the pitch and watching the mountains get taller and smaller.

770
01:16:15,628 --> 01:16:16,501
Yeah.

771
01:16:17,636 --> 01:16:18,331
Yeah.

772
01:16:18,331 --> 01:16:19,777
fun.

773
01:16:21,599 --> 01:16:29,285
touches that I guess you probably could just give us sliders and numbers probably, right?

774
01:16:29,285 --> 01:16:41,506
And we could, you know, have dropdown menus and it would be technically similar, but
there's something, it takes you someplace.

775
01:16:41,506 --> 01:16:43,778
I think it really does.

776
01:16:43,778 --> 01:16:45,959
brings you into a mood.

777
01:16:46,444 --> 01:17:02,190
Yeah, yeah, think, I mean, the ability to have robust visuals is something that's kind of
unique to plugins, um you know, on like a guitar pedal.

778
01:17:02,190 --> 01:17:12,554
to like knobs and faders, like the physical thing that they're representing and knobs and
faders are great in the real world, but they're weird with a mouse and trying to turn a

779
01:17:12,554 --> 01:17:12,985
knob.

780
01:17:12,985 --> 01:17:18,877
don't know if I should go up or sideways or it gets weird when you get past a certain
point.

781
01:17:19,308 --> 01:17:22,099
Yeah, ah exactly.

782
01:17:22,099 --> 01:17:32,221
I get that these things are inspired by something that exists in the real world, but it
doesn't necessarily have to be skeuomorphic.

783
01:17:33,302 --> 01:17:41,544
On a guitar pedal, at best you have a couple LEDs, and it's like, if it's blinking faster,
it's in this mode.

784
01:17:42,404 --> 01:17:45,825
If it's blue, it means it's reversed or whatever.

785
01:17:45,825 --> 01:17:48,706
Just stuff you have to memorize.

786
01:17:48,979 --> 01:17:56,663
Um, so I, you know, back to the question of like, why should this thing exist?

787
01:17:56,663 --> 01:18:12,671
I think that the visuals and kind of making something engaging and, and fun and exciting,
like that's kind of a, a huge advantage that software can have.

788
01:18:12,671 --> 01:18:18,806
Um, which, you know, as you just pointed out, like is, is usually a little under.

789
01:18:18,806 --> 01:18:20,947
represented and underexplored.

790
01:18:22,728 --> 01:18:35,606
so, you know, I, I try to just keep it interesting and, know, selfishly, I try to create
something that, you know, advertises itself.

791
01:18:35,606 --> 01:18:44,921
Like people, if they're uploading like a screen recording or whatever, whatever they're
working on, like, I want it to be something that you don't want to close the window.

792
01:18:44,921 --> 01:18:46,015
ah

793
01:18:46,015 --> 01:18:47,060
Yeah, all right.

794
01:18:47,060 --> 01:18:48,831
want to have like sitting on the screen.

795
01:18:48,831 --> 01:18:56,934
ah But at the same time, like I want it to, I want it to be something that you don't want
to close anyway.

796
01:18:56,934 --> 01:19:08,448
Like, you know, I want it to be something that's almost like a, like in Ridgewalk's case,
it's like a sort of a visualizer ah that you could just leave running as long as you want.

797
01:19:09,225 --> 01:19:11,657
Yeah, I kind of want to see it moving around.

798
01:19:13,659 --> 01:19:23,689
There are definitely plugins like that, that I think people, if they're making their
little clips for their reels or whatever, that they leave open because they look cool.

799
01:19:23,689 --> 01:19:32,056
They're pleasing to look at, but maybe some of the more simple, utilitary kind of deals.

800
01:19:32,477 --> 01:19:34,158
No one wants to look at that.

801
01:19:35,127 --> 01:19:46,432
Yeah, I mean, and I think that is probably correlated with how inspirational the tool is.

802
01:19:47,013 --> 01:19:53,176
You know, if I'm, I don't know, configuring, like I want a dotted eighth note delay.

803
01:19:53,276 --> 01:19:57,578
I only have to look at a plugin for 20 seconds to do that.

804
01:19:57,578 --> 01:20:05,322
ah So I don't know if I'm getting much inspiration out of that.

805
01:20:05,678 --> 01:20:18,898
Um, but if it's something that I feel like, um, you know, I'm forced to sit there and
watch it a little bit.

806
01:20:18,898 --> 01:20:30,758
Um, you know, maybe that kind of entices you to fiddle with some settings or you just
stumble upon something that you weren't really expecting before.

807
01:20:31,398 --> 01:20:35,000
Um, so I do think like the aesthetics can be a

808
01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:52,362
a really big factor in how, ah just how fun something is to use and like makes you come
back to it, whether it's in like that session or the next session or whatever.

809
01:20:55,123 --> 01:21:12,520
I enjoy doing that from time to time when I'm making instruments or effects to like name
the macros something like dream sparkle instead of filter granular delay or something so

810
01:21:12,520 --> 01:21:19,326
technical that um feels like you're doing science more than music.

811
01:21:19,326 --> 01:21:20,491
oh

812
01:21:20,491 --> 01:21:29,631
you know you're in this more creative that's the one thing I love about like the op1 I've
always loved that about that it's you know you're manipulating these graphics you don't

813
01:21:29,631 --> 01:21:40,675
even know what the knobs are doing half the time they don't even tell you so you're just
listening and watching the thing change and makes you want to play around with it

814
01:21:40,759 --> 01:21:44,040
Yeah, there's definitely a sweet spot to it.

815
01:21:44,040 --> 01:21:48,122
um You know, it's like...

816
01:21:48,982 --> 01:21:58,646
I mean, one of the last things I usually do is kind of nail down um the terminology of
everything in the UI.

817
01:21:58,646 --> 01:22:06,969
um you know, I think it's always kind of a question of how technical to get.

818
01:22:06,969 --> 01:22:08,710
um

819
01:22:09,206 --> 01:22:22,593
And so like, for example, on Ridgewalk, like there's a setting called blur and that's, you
know, it's kind of how smooth the grains are, like how, you know, how much attack and

820
01:22:22,593 --> 01:22:23,954
release do they have?

821
01:22:23,974 --> 01:22:26,755
But then it also starts to introduce a reverb as well.

822
01:22:26,755 --> 01:22:29,397
If you kind of push it to the more extreme settings.

823
01:22:29,397 --> 01:22:39,002
um And you know, that could totally be labeled like, I don't know, like grain smoothness
and reverb.

824
01:22:39,118 --> 01:22:54,765
But I think it's, like, I feel like that's an example of, kind of, I feel happy with
nailing that combination of, it's a little abstract, but you can also figure it out.

825
01:22:54,765 --> 01:23:01,188
Like, if I told you, like, this is gonna blur the sound, like, you can kind of figure out
what that probably means.

826
01:23:01,188 --> 01:23:04,930
ah And from there, you're, using your ears.

827
01:23:05,373 --> 01:23:07,373
that sound in my head.

828
01:23:08,454 --> 01:23:10,255
Visualize isn't the right word.

829
01:23:10,255 --> 01:23:12,596
Is there a word for imagining sound?

830
01:23:12,596 --> 01:23:14,977
Like visualize is imagining.

831
01:23:15,738 --> 01:23:18,439
Maybe it's just something.

832
01:23:18,439 --> 01:23:19,500
But yeah, get that.

833
01:23:19,500 --> 01:23:21,181
Yeah, I love that control, by the way.

834
01:23:21,181 --> 01:23:26,169
That's kind of a magic control right there, the blur.

835
01:23:26,169 --> 01:23:27,089
Yeah.

836
01:23:27,931 --> 01:23:35,820
Yeah, that's an example of something I wanted to make sure was on the front panel for if
you don't want to think about it too much.

837
01:23:35,820 --> 01:23:41,172
This is the one knob ambient control, basically.

838
01:23:41,172 --> 01:23:51,671
I think if you would have named it the more technical names, in this case, I understand
blur better what that's going to do to the sound better than I would if you said, we're

839
01:23:51,671 --> 01:23:55,804
going to change the attack and release of the greens.

840
01:23:56,545 --> 01:23:58,417
That would be like, what's the, does that mean?

841
01:23:58,417 --> 01:23:59,748
What's that going to do?

842
01:23:59,748 --> 01:24:00,190
Blur?

843
01:24:00,190 --> 01:24:01,930
I'm like, okay.

844
01:24:01,930 --> 01:24:02,881
Got it.

845
01:24:02,881 --> 01:24:05,142
Yeah, and I think it's a...

846
01:24:06,063 --> 01:24:20,782
like it goes both directions where if, you know, there's a control and you can't boil it
down to a simple term like that, like maybe it shouldn't be one control, maybe it's doing

847
01:24:20,782 --> 01:24:21,413
too much.

848
01:24:21,413 --> 01:24:29,678
um You know, it's kind of like a signal in some ways.

849
01:24:29,678 --> 01:24:35,322
um I'm always like, you know, I wear, I wear a lot of hats.

850
01:24:36,163 --> 01:24:40,706
You know, there's kind of like the original version of me that's like dreaming up this
idea.

851
01:24:40,706 --> 01:24:49,642
And then there's like the engineer who's building it and the product manager who's kind of
figuring out like what needs to even be in there at all.

852
01:24:49,642 --> 01:24:51,633
And the marketing guy.

853
01:24:51,633 --> 01:24:58,636
ah But you know, when, you know, sometimes, ah you know, when you're doing that,

854
01:24:58,636 --> 01:25:04,170
marketing stuff or thinking about like, okay, how am I going to actually get people to
understand this?

855
01:25:04,170 --> 01:25:11,454
Like if I can't figure out a way to get people to understand it, then maybe it's not
understandable enough.

856
01:25:11,454 --> 01:25:12,835
It's not digestible.

857
01:25:12,835 --> 01:25:17,748
Um, so it's time to, you know, go back to the drawing board a little bit.

858
01:25:20,117 --> 01:25:21,167
make sense.

859
01:25:22,589 --> 01:25:28,121
I could see how they inform each other a bit but it's also switching gears.

860
01:25:28,121 --> 01:25:30,614
It's like that with everything we do I guess, right?

861
01:25:30,614 --> 01:25:43,402
These days a lot of the jobs of the music maker was many jobs, many different people,
engineer, producer, know, talent.

862
01:25:44,599 --> 01:25:45,519
Yeah.

863
01:25:51,023 --> 01:26:06,041
Well, it's, uh I mean, a lot of times it feels like the uh actual, um the specialization
and like the expert aspect of, uh you know, those individual roles can be lost as we're

864
01:26:06,041 --> 01:26:12,559
all kind of like trying to do, you know, 65 % of.

865
01:26:12,651 --> 01:26:13,194
Hmm.

866
01:26:13,194 --> 01:26:15,414
used to be an entire job.

867
01:26:17,254 --> 01:26:20,734
It's a gift and a curse.

868
01:26:22,806 --> 01:26:32,353
It's awesome that you could, you know, record a song and mix it and master it and release
it and market it.

869
01:26:33,895 --> 01:26:36,297
Do all the things that musicians have to do these days.

870
01:26:36,297 --> 01:26:47,046
ah But it's also, you know, it's, really nice when you get to kind of witness like a, you
know, a master at work.

871
01:26:47,046 --> 01:26:52,396
ah Like with my music, it's always been mastered by someone else.

872
01:26:52,396 --> 01:27:05,081
And I think that's just a really cool and important part of the process to like send it
off and a human being is working on this and when you when they send it back, it sounds

873
01:27:05,081 --> 01:27:05,612
awesome.

874
01:27:05,612 --> 01:27:08,213
Like that's a that's a great part of the process.

875
01:27:08,213 --> 01:27:15,616
And I think I would be sad if the mastering step were annoying and something that I had to
really figure out myself.

876
01:27:15,616 --> 01:27:18,217
ah So I.

877
01:27:18,886 --> 01:27:21,478
I think it's it's nice when.

878
01:27:21,634 --> 01:27:28,340
we still get the rare opportunity to kind of let, you know, let the specialists and the
masters shine.

879
01:27:31,037 --> 01:27:35,100
Yeah, we get to do it, but it is nice.

880
01:27:35,481 --> 01:27:39,725
Especially when it comes back, it's almost like magic.

881
01:27:39,725 --> 01:27:41,675
Wow, how'd you do that?

882
01:27:41,675 --> 01:27:42,935
Yeah.

883
01:27:44,016 --> 01:27:45,017
Yeah.

884
01:27:45,017 --> 01:28:00,104
And it's kind of the same thing with the plugin design where, um I mean, you know, I'm
really doing everything from the product design to the implementation to the UI and the

885
01:28:00,104 --> 01:28:01,765
visuals and the graphics and stuff.

886
01:28:01,765 --> 01:28:11,726
um And I think, you know, in some cases, like it's, it's really, it would probably be
beneficial to involve someone else.

887
01:28:11,726 --> 01:28:16,914
ah You know, I'm especially like with testing and stuff like that.

888
01:28:16,914 --> 01:28:24,326
That's when all kinds of ideas that I'd never even like conceived of like start popping up
ah

889
01:28:25,998 --> 01:28:37,098
But I think, you know, like when I was just starting out, was kind of like just, you know,
scrappy trying to do everything that I can myself.

890
01:28:37,098 --> 01:28:47,578
And I still try to do that, but you know, it's getting to the point where I feel like I
can involve other people as well, which is really nice.

891
01:28:49,657 --> 01:28:51,058
It's awesome stuff man.

892
01:28:51,058 --> 01:29:03,909
I really like what you're doing and a lot of fun to play around with and I've been lost in
these worlds that I've created with your stuff quite a bit lately.

893
01:29:04,150 --> 01:29:09,174
So thanks for bringing it into existence and sharing it with the world.

894
01:29:09,186 --> 01:29:11,909
Yeah, I mean thanks for thinking that's

895
01:29:14,613 --> 01:29:15,994
That's the easy part.

896
01:29:15,994 --> 01:29:17,575
He did a great job.

897
01:29:18,556 --> 01:29:26,482
We can send people to aqeeladamsound.com and I'll put the links in the show notes.

898
01:29:26,603 --> 01:29:32,007
You have one of those unusual situations where there's no U after the Q in your name.

899
01:29:32,007 --> 01:29:38,913
A Q E E L A A D A M sound.com for anyone just listening.

900
01:29:38,913 --> 01:29:41,675
But yeah, I'll put in the show notes for people to find.

901
01:29:42,642 --> 01:29:52,601
And I wish you continued luck and hope that, you know, Waymaker is a big hit and people
get onto it.

902
01:29:52,661 --> 01:29:58,607
I'll be playing around with it some more, trying to figure it out and also just let it do
its thing and surprise me.

903
01:29:58,607 --> 01:30:05,343
I like that these devices all kind of have that where there's an element of surprise.

904
01:30:05,343 --> 01:30:07,234
It seems like around every corner.

905
01:30:07,697 --> 01:30:08,519
Mm-hmm.

906
01:30:08,519 --> 01:30:09,619
Yeah, that's the goal.

907
01:30:09,619 --> 01:30:17,944
um You know, I don't know, probably 20 % surprise, 80 % feeling like you know what you're
doing.

908
01:30:19,886 --> 01:30:21,467
I don't know what the right ratio is.

909
01:30:21,467 --> 01:30:33,684
eh But yeah, no, I really appreciate you, know, checking them out and, you know, obviously
like someone like you who kind of...

910
01:30:33,804 --> 01:30:37,818
I'm sure there's so much stuff that comes across your desk and you've got so much
experience.

911
01:30:37,818 --> 01:30:43,122
Like I really appreciate you kind of taking the time with them and kind of seeing the
value in them.

912
01:30:44,341 --> 01:30:44,912
Thanks.

913
01:30:44,912 --> 01:30:45,894
They stand out.

914
01:30:45,894 --> 01:30:46,495
really do.

915
01:30:46,495 --> 01:30:53,667
You're doing something special and it's pretty awesome that this is all coming out of your
mind and into reality.

916
01:30:53,667 --> 01:30:55,994
uh

917
01:30:55,994 --> 01:31:03,024
sometimes it comes out of the mud too much I need to like I'm like I need to go play video
games for 10 hours straight

918
01:31:03,239 --> 01:31:10,107
Yeah, it's always good to kind of cleanse the palette a little, come back fresh.

919
01:31:10,554 --> 01:31:11,244
absolutely.

920
01:31:11,244 --> 01:31:19,296
Because, I mean, it's funny, like, as soon as you start doing something you love, you
almost have to hold yourself back sometimes.

921
01:31:19,753 --> 01:31:21,830
Mm-hmm, right.

922
01:31:21,830 --> 01:31:23,274
Yeah, you gotta like keep making it.

923
01:31:23,274 --> 01:31:25,078
You probably want to just play with it.

924
01:31:25,280 --> 01:31:38,177
Yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, I, I like to kind of juggle like, um, you know, the way makers
out there, like, what are the follow-up updates I want to do for it?

925
01:31:38,177 --> 01:31:41,328
And then there's like the stuff that I'm building right this second.

926
01:31:41,328 --> 01:31:45,281
And then there's the stuff that I'm dreaming off on the horizon.

927
01:31:45,281 --> 01:31:54,646
So, you know, you can kind of, there's always something to do and it's, it's kind of nice
to be able to pick and choose what feels most,

928
01:31:55,350 --> 01:31:58,720
inspiring and effective in that moment.

929
01:31:58,720 --> 01:32:01,887
That's the beauty of working for yourself, as I'm sure you know.

930
01:32:01,887 --> 01:32:04,008
Yeah, yeah it is.

931
01:32:04,448 --> 01:32:07,610
Yeah, well, we're all benefiting from it.

932
01:32:10,632 --> 01:32:11,192
Cool.

933
01:32:11,192 --> 01:32:13,933
yeah, everyone listening, check it out.

934
01:32:13,974 --> 01:32:22,158
Akiladomsound.com, Ridgewalk, Waymaker, and Weeping Wall, all unique in their own right.

935
01:32:22,158 --> 01:32:24,879
And they play nice together too.

936
01:32:27,441 --> 01:32:28,381
cool.

937
01:32:28,641 --> 01:32:29,072
All right.

938
01:32:29,072 --> 01:32:31,763
I think we did a podcast here.

939
01:32:31,960 --> 01:32:32,792
Sweet.

940
01:32:33,850 --> 01:32:37,468
Let's see, I'll hit the record button here.

941
01:32:37,468 --> 01:32:39,837
I made it go away, I can't...

942
01:32:39,918 --> 01:32:40,999
There we go.