just wanted to get this full screen.
There we go.
So I don't have to be distracted by myself.
All right.
Good kill.
Welcome to the Music Production Podcast.
Good to have you.
Yeah, thanks for having me Brian.
It's awesome to be here.
Yeah, it's nice to get to know you, get to know your work, to meet you.
And it's kind of cool when it's through a mutual contact.
And that was TJ aka Sixmissing, who is probably going to be the next episode that gets released actually.
And I don't know if there might be one in between when this finally happens, but yeah, it was cool to hear him say like, you should check this stuff out.
And he was right.
I love what you're doing.
Thank you.
Yeah, TJ is a great guy.
um And you know, it's like as soon as he releases something, I'm streaming it immediately.
So he's uh always doing really quality stuff.
Yeah, I always have a need for kind of like relaxing playlists and sounds and albums and just stuff that I don't want to say that I just let fade into the background.
mean, sometimes, yeah, but yeah, just something to kind of slow myself down and his stuff fits that perfectly.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, when I'm working, you know, there's always different moods to kind of, ah to kind of reach for.
But most of the time, I feel like I need relaxing stuff to kind of keep me from getting too frustrated or just getting too bogged down by anything.
So it's always nice to kind of have uh music like his in the Rolodex.
if it's these days or this age or something, but yeah.
Your stuff has got that too.
I really enjoy what you're doing.
Lots of ambient, but also like some cool textures.
Nature seems to be like a big part of what you do.
And I guess the background for people that might only be listening is sort of perfect.
You've got a wall of modular, another wall of some sense.
see like, looks like the Mo grandmother.
or maybe it's the matriarch even.
Yeah, but then you've got a plant, um which looks a lot like, I don't know if you can see the one I got, but they look like they could be, can you see that?
It might be just out of view.
Yeah, they look like they could be related.
Mine is struggling to stay alive, so don't look too close.
m
and this organic thing.
Yeah, for me, you know, when I got into modular and like synths in general, you know, I always kind of wanted to make sure it was a means to an end.
um And, you know, I have like real world experiences.
I love going out and hiking, biking, all that stuff.
ah And the stuff that I try, like that's what I try to represent.
And
I feel like I happen to do it with modular or synthesizers or drum machines or whatever.
um So I guess I try to kind of capture that synergy just by kind of like what I'm trying to represent and what I'm using to do it.
um And you started as a guitar player,
Mm Yeah.
Yeah.
I started when I was about 13.
I ah didn't have any real interest or exposure to music before that.
ah Well, I was exposed to it, obviously, because like who who isn't exposed to music.
ah But, know, I didn't really have an interest in it until that point.
And I remember the day that I like randomly said to my mom, like,
what if, you know, my grandfather taught me guitar because he was a really amazing jazz guitarist.
And so the thought just popped into my head like, I could do that.
And I could see like, you know, the gears were turning in my mom's head.
She was like, okay, this is different.
Don't discourage it.
But also like kind of what's going on right now.
So I...
ah
you probably the next day we walked around the corner to my grandfather's house because he lived right on the block.
and I said, like, you know, I want to learn guitar.
Will you please teach me?
Um, and he basically pointed at one of his guitars and he said, okay, grab that one and you're going to learn the way I did take it home.
I'm not teaching you anything.
so, you know, I've
walked back around the corner with this guitar probably carrying it like you know scared to death um and that was my task just figure it out basically
Hmm.
Wow.
So just almost like I don't want to influence you or guide you like in a particular direction.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And, you know, it you can probably guess it didn't go great, at least the first time.
ah So I spent probably like a year, you know, kind of ah working my way through it not really getting far.
ah And I took some time away from it.
You know, it kind of became like a shameful thing.
Like he'd asked me how it was going and I'd
kind of dodged the question.
But it was after I actually kind of developed my own real taste in music um that I started getting into Metallica um or I don't know, like Linkin Park or whatever at the time.
um And I'd be listening to this music and then I'd look over at the guitar and I was like, I wonder if I could play this.
And then once I actually had a goal to work towards instead of the whole abstract concept of learn this instrument, ah that's kind of where it all clicked.
uh once you start playing other people's music and you kind of learn what they're doing, kind of see some of the patterns, then you can kind of extrapolate it for yourself and
start writing your own music.
um So you weren't looking for jazz, you were looking for sounds like harder stuff, heavier stuff.
Yeah, think, yeah, it wasn't until high school that I joined my high school jazz band.
And then that was kind of, that was my exposure to that whole world.
um But up until that point, it was all kind of like self-taught, like drop D and E minor type stuff.
you know, just kind of.
working your way through it and uh just mimicking what I was hearing.
But once I got to jazz band, know, the whole, like everything kind of came together and I started seeing stuff in a really different way.
Right, I can imagine you probably had some understanding, some foundations, then sort of, alright, well this is what it all means, like the key to the map.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, and I think, you know, just like being open minded, being a sponge and like, you know, not going into anything with with too many.
I don't know, prejudices like, you know, I didn't have an opinion on jazz.
I just kind of joined because all my friends were interested in it and they were joining the jazz band.
So I was like, OK, I guess I'll.
I I'll join too because in my high school it was cool to be in the band.
ah So I just kind of went into it with an open mind and tried to learn everything that I could.
And it turned out to be really awesome experience.
My ah high school teacher was like one of my biggest influences and like best teachers and just life in general.
That's awesome.
I sort of started in similar ways.
I was about that age and you know, I've never had exposure to music as a participant.
You'd hear it like, you know, it's everywhere.
But yeah, it was kind of never occurred to me that I could actually participate.
And once I realized that it was very exciting and...
m
I got my first guitar from my grandpa too, but he wasn't a really guitar player.
He had this, I still have it.
It's like my favorite guitar.
It's this old Gibson acoustic, but it's a short scale guitar.
It's almost like a parlor guitar.
And it was just too small for him to get his fingers on.
And so I think that kind of took a lot of the steam out of it.
I don't know if he ever really knew that he could have got a bigger one.
Like, wow, this is hard.
Yeah, cause yeah, on these, it's got a smaller neck than like my electric guitars and like a strat does.
So yeah, I could see how I'd be like, can't play this thing.
too little.
But yeah, it's fun to learn it and discover it kind of on your own way a little bit.
I took some lessons, but
Yeah, just having that experience of finding it.
Of course, you never know what the roads of life would be like, but looking back, I'm kind of glad I got to do that rather than maybe when I started, I sort of wished I'd played in
band, so I understood music a little bit, but it would have changed things.
I think at the end of the day, it's like, you know, you can be exposed or taught whatever, but really, I think there is like an element where you have to teach yourself, like you
have to figure it out for yourself.
And I think that's, that's true for whatever you're doing, ah music or otherwise, like, you know, if you're just instructed exactly what to do, I don't know if it's going to
really take in the same way.
Like, you know, you can tell your student exactly where to put their fingers and you know, which string to strum and when to do it.
But like, what are they, what are they ultimately doing?
You know, that's not really any different than like, you know, dictating or, you know, like writing down exactly what someone's saying as they're saying it.
Like, are you really taking notes?
Not really.
You're kind of like transcribing.
So I think.
Like, you really need that personal experience of sitting there and reckoning with it and grappling with it and, you know, taking the time to figure out like, how does this work?
What do I think is cool about this?
ah And, and like the next step is like, what do you hear other people doing?
What do you like about it?
What do you dislike about it?
What would you do differently?
And then you're kind of like off to the races at that point.
Um, but I think I also never really had lessons, so I can only kind of imagine what it's like to kind of go through that process.
But from what I've heard, it's a lot of kind of that experience of more being instructed exactly what to do.
Yeah, there's, you know, I just read a book about learning and like how we learn and they've apparently found according to science that when there is some struggle, you retain
stuff better.
And what you were saying kind of reminds me of almost like if you were tracing a picture compared to if you were trying to draw it on your own and
I think there is something to that, all that processing that happens when you're trying to figure out how is this supposed to go?
But apparently there's some sort of magic level of struggle that allows you to like really learn better and your memory is better about the things you learn.
And they say that about flow too, the flow state that you want to be at a level where you are challenged.
It's not too hard for you, but sometimes you fail.
Sometimes you succeed.
So that's what kind of makes sense that learning would be like that.
Yeah, I, um, when, you know, I sit down to actually compose something or, you know, just write something, it's usually how I start my day.
but I feel like I'm most satisfied when there's kind of like a, like a thesis to it, uh, where there's, you know, if I'm starting with something that I don't quite understand, you
know, especially if you have like a new piece of gear or
you know, if you have a piece of gear already and you know, it's like, I don't really understand what that mode does.
You know, let's sit down and figure it out today.
um That's kind of been my most successful way to get started and to, you know, kind of just generate something that I think is interesting.
um You know, I think, I guess that is like the struggle.
starting with something you don't understand and kind of like, you know, it's got to be relatively bite sized.
Like I'm not going to sit there and, you know, say, okay, I'm going to figure out how Bach wrote this concerto or whatever.
I'm going to, you know, take something that is relatively actionable.
Like, I don't understand how this guitar pedal works and just try to make something cool with it.
And at that point, uh
I think that's a really great way to kind of catalyze that process.
Hmm.
Yeah, it is.
It's some, some sort of direction because we have infinite directions to go in and something, just some little thread to pull on can really make a difference because I get
stuck a lot when I don't know what to do.
And especially like I've got time and like, what am going to do today?
don't know.
Sometimes.
Yeah, just.
That is crippling, just not known, when there is like that mission, if you don't want to do that.
I got to say that's, um, makes me think of how I was interacting with your plugins, which, uh, we haven't even mentioned yet, but you've got your own plugins, Akiladom sounds,
right?
That's what you're calling the, the kind of company, I guess.
And, um, they're really fun and they kind of.
puts you in this state of not completely knowing what's gonna happen when I do something.
And I think the graphical interface is really nice too.
And it's got that like nature thing.
Talking to you already, I get why it looks the way it does.
Cause you've got these like really nice backgrounds that kind of pull you into it a little bit.
Yeah, thank you, man.
That's really great to hear, because that's kind of exactly what I was hoping for when I'm building them.
I think one of the core tenets of my plugin companies is of helping people find inspiration, which I think...
um I wrote it down.
uh Plugins for the curious and open-minded.
Yeah, think it's, you know, I personally, don't actually use that many plugins because ah I think they tend to be very utilitarian.
ah You know, something like, you know, the Soundtoys bundle or like RC-20 or something like that.
Like they're really amazing tools, obviously, like they're
really badass like DSP engineers.
ah Though I think ultimately they tend to serve a precise need.
Like I'm opening Echo Boy because I want this delay or, you know, it tends to be that there is a precise like utility that you're going for.
And for that reason, I tend not to use software that much.
m and I gravitated towards all the hardware stuff because I think there is a little bit more unpredictability um and really feeling like you're kind of collaborating with this
machine as opposed to telling it exactly what to do um and I think you know for those of us with kind of like a background of playing in bands like that's a really natural space
to occupy because
You know, you might be playing with your buddy and you can't tell them exactly what to play.
You can kind of say like, I've got this, you know, this riff or this melody or whatever, like, you know, try it out, but they're going to play it in a different way than you would
play it.
And, know, you're not going to sit, sit there and spend two hours like, no, like the, this is the exact accent and the emphasis or whatever.
so I think it's kind of the same experience where like,
you know, you're working with this piece of hardware or, you know, what I'm hoping to do with the plugins is like, feels like you're interacting with this thing and there's a bit
of a and a pull.
I'm kind of like negotiation.
Like there's things that it can do really well.
There's things that you can kind of coerce it to do if you want to take the, take the effort.
But ultimately, I think it's occupying that space where you are, you you might have an idea about what you're doing in that jam session, but it turns out totally different.
I think that's okay.
I think that can be really fun.
I love that aspect of making music.
They kind of, I'm an explorer, you know, like I'm like getting on the boat heading into the Atlantic and the 1300s or something and just, see what we can find past the end of
this map.
Yeah, I think it's funny that you mention a boat because I think of it as like, ah you know, if you're looking at a map, can't just go somewhere on a boat.
You can only steer it left and right.
So, you you might see something off in the distance and you want to get there, but you might have to take this, you know, long arc and maybe you get there or maybe you...
find something off to the other side that's more interesting.
And I think that is just way more fun and engaging than saying like, you know, just pointing on the map and saying, I want to go right there.
Yeah, I think it's, it's way more interesting and often more rewarding to kind of steer yourself there and see where you get or how long it takes to get there.
if you get distracted or whatever.
Yeah.
And kind of what I was saying before, like when there's so many choices and decisions, you don't know where to go.
It can be like paralyzing.
So I try to come up with like a plan.
I do this with my classes and stuff, like try to give them a, make them define the plan.
Like what kind of song are you trying to make?
What's the occasion?
Why would someone listen to it?
Just as much as you can, but then not worry what happens.
So pick a target and make it as
clear as you can, it might be kind of fuzzy and blurry.
Then just shoot the arrow and it's not about hitting the target necessarily.
Just now you're going for something and then all of these interesting things can happen along the way.
I think you get that with like hardware gear a lot more.
So even if it's an EQ on like a mixing board, they might only be like certain numbers.
You might get like
200 Hertz, 1K, 5K, and then that's, you know, maybe one more.
So you're turning the knob.
It's like around 1K a little past it.
But when you're in the computer, it's like, I want, I'm going to 1,274 Hertz.
And it's so precise and it can take some of that exploration out of it, I think in a way.
Yeah, yeah, and I think, um and I think a lot of, you know, software tools are very like completionist, like they have every single feature you could probably want.
ah You know, like if it's an EQ, it's like make as many bands as you want.
You can have 4,000.
ah But, know, on like a mixing board, it's maybe four, maybe five.
And I think like
You know, it's even more limited in the realm of like a guitar pedal or, um, like a Euro rack module.
It's like, you know, there's only so many knobs.
we put double the number of knobs, it would be double the price and nobody would buy it.
so I think it's, uh, it's a really cool medium where, you know, you can't do everything.
And I think that's okay.
Like you can do a lot of things and you can kind of like work with that.
I think it's really interesting to kind of like, you know, reason with what you have, like, you know, I want to do X, Y, Z.
I can't do that exactly, or I don't have one particular tool that will let me do that.
But, you know, if I combine this and grab that and kind of use them together in this way, I hadn't thought of before, like all of a sudden.
you know, I'm 95 % of the way that to what I was trying to do.
And I've got something, you know, much more interesting.
Like you've probably got all these cool like byproducts or you've thought of a new way to use these things that you could, you know, using the next jam and the next jam and the
next jam.
Um, and you just like making these connections, um, in a way that I, I feel like is a little less, um,
you know, rewarding when you're just telling this thing exactly what to do.
Um, I think, I think it's, it's just, it's just more fun to, um, to do that exploring and find, find a way there that you didn't know before.
Yeah, when there's only a few knobs and controls you're more likely to twist them and turn them and play around.
You did a really cool thing.
I think it's in uh Ridge Walk, which that's the looper if I'm not confusing them right.
If that's...
uh
a granular engine.
Okay.
Yeah.
As I'm saying, I'm like, I don't know if looper is the best way to put it, but it does like, but you did it in a really cool way where not everything gets through.
There's a threshold control.
So that means I can play quiet and doesn't get involved in all this looping granular stuff, but then I can.
dig in a little bit and then it comes through.
But I love the way you decided to do this kind of circle that the volume is represented by the circle that gets bigger when it's louder and smaller when it's quiet.
And then you make the circle for the threshold.
You could have done a very precise, you know, VU meter and we could have seen the numbers and how many decibels we have to play at.
But something about that circle and
And it does read out the numbers, but it's inviting.
And it's like, no, I wanted to get this much of the circle.
And it got me playing in a way that I was trying to interact with the plugin a little bit more.
And sometimes you lose that inside the computer with some of the digital stuff that's not responsive to envelopes and volume levels and stuff.
So that was a fun.
approach that it brought back and it reminds me of this trick I used to like to do before I had a computer at all to record and with vocals I would set up like a condenser mic to
sing into that was kind of the main mic and then I'd put a dynamic mic about arms length away and that would be going into a delay and it would only really be audible when I sang
louder so kind of certain words would bust through and hit the delay and now you can
certainly program that and set up effects chains and stuff and be really precise.
But I always kind of loved that.
I didn't always know what I was going to get.
I didn't know if the words were going to go through until it was recorded and then that's what you got and you were just stuck with it.
I just think that what you're doing invites that kind of experimentation, exploration.
It's a great tagline really, the open-minded curious.
way of looking at it because it forces you to just see what happens when I play with it and interact with it.
And because of that, a lot of the times when I'm trying to, that I've been trying to learn these plugins of yours, I just get kind of lost in making the music.
that, that mission of, um, I'm going to learn this thing, which is a lot of times for me, the secondary mission anyway, I want to make music.
So when I'm playing with your stuff, I find myself
kind of throwing the Learn It out the window and just be like, this sounds cool.
Yeah, yeah man, no that's awesome to hear I think like You know there's When we have such cool tools out there.
I think there can be a tendency to Feel like you have to learn every nook and cranny of it ah And I've never been that way as a musician.
I feel like every single Thing in this room.
I understand maybe 10 % of but I know how to
access that 10 % and use it in a way that I like and you know that makes results that I'm happy with.
ah And I tried to kind of do that with the plugins as well where it's like you know there's a little something for everyone ah but if you you just open it up and just look at
what's on the front panel and never even like dig into the deeper settings or whatever like that's totally cool.
You know, the goal is that you get lost in it and you know, and you're not thinking about it.
Uh, and maybe one day, you know, down the line, you're like, I don't understand what the setting does or, I just found out about this, you know, esoteric setting in the settings
menu or whatever.
Like, you know, that kind of like opens up a whole new world.
But I think the real goal is like that experience of literally just making music.
ah
And it's really cool to hear about you like using it with guitar as well.
ah Because, know, obviously being software, I imagine it's mostly used with stuff that's also in the box.
But I really tried to tune these things to work for, you know, ah kind of, I guess like
Sounds and like soft sense and stuff that have a little bit less dynamic range.
They're a bit more like, you know dialed in or You know live performance.
um I Tried to kind of Make sure that you know, both both groups would be satisfied and have fun with it
Hmm.
I have to imagine making a plugin is in a way a little bit like arranging a song nowadays because we can make infinite tracks.
I can have every sound ever come in and you could certainly put more control.
I mean, you did a lot with graphics.
You left a lot of room for that just for the visual experience.
How did you decide what to bring in and what to leave out?
Because I'm guessing there's a lot of stuff happening that you could have gave parameters for, but maybe decided, no, I'm not going to do that.
Let's keep it cleaner.
How did you go about that?
Yeah, think every product has a core idea or thesis to it.
And everything really needs to serve that.
I think that core aspect of the plugin is really what's unique about it.
um It doesn't even have to be a plugin, it could be anything.
um Guitar pedal or...
your rec module or whatever.
But I think there's a core idea of like, why should this exist?
What is unique about this?
Why wouldn't, like, why would I bother building this as opposed to using something that's already out there and, you know, some other talented person already built?
um So I think, you know, I definitely start from there um and kind of think about like, okay, what is this thing?
What is this abstract idea?
What is cool about this?
um And from there, I kind of expand on it.
um So like, for example, with Ridgewalk, you know, the core idea is basically like this granular algorithm that you can kind of, um you know, direct in a particular way.
Like you can kind of scan through the
buffer from forward to backward, can scan through it from backward to forward, can scan through it randomly, whatever.
That's something that I use in my music all the time, like, you know, building a patch like that on the Euro Rack.
So I started from that idea, and then I started thinking about like, okay, what enhances that?
So that's where the whole like sound on sound looper came into play, because I thought it would be cool.
Like, hey, how do you refresh this buffer?
How do you add to it?
And from there, that became like a layered history looper thing that's going on.
those of leaps from the original idea, I think, are what really kind of make it so interesting.
But to answer your question, think like the stuff that you leave out, tend to, you know, I really try to respect like the environment that these plugins are being used in.
Um, so, you know, in a, in a DAW, like, you know, you've got a million EQs or reverbs delays.
Everybody's got a reverb plugin.
They love a delay plugin.
They love whatever.
so I felt like I didn't really need to reinvent the wheel in that respect.
so much.
um You know, I didn't feel much, I guess I would say like responsibility to include, you know, every single possible nice to have because you're running in this environment that's
like so super powered, like you can do anything in it.
And you know, that makes it a little easier for me.
I can kind of like
pair things down and keep them relatively simple.
um And I try to just keep it, you as atomic as possible while also being um unique and something that people would want to use.
And I think like just in testing or kind of once you've got like an alpha build of something, that's where you can kind of like start using the thing and being like, this is
cool.
But like what would put this over the top and make it amazing would be you know such and such And once you get like friends playing with it and stuff.
That's where you kind of like go from there ah But I would say like in general I kind of I operate with a very like conservative mindset and we're like I'm usually withholding ideas
and features as opposed to like throwing everything in there and I think that really helps like
solidify the idea of like, what is this thing?
Why would I use this?
Yeah, good point.
Cause you could have had like a whole page of effects like chorus, reverb, flanger.
And a lot of things tend to do that, but I don't ever really find myself gravitating towards those effects.
I usually just bring in the reverb I want or another chorus or something else that I've already got.
And it allows you to focus a bit on what you're offering in that.
nice small area where I can see things and it's nothing too overwhelming.
Yeah.
You know, it's, uh, it's always just that like kind of negotiation between, um, you know, what, what do I think is cool about this and what would, why would people want to use
this?
and I think my task is mostly to convince people that it's
interesting and package it in a way that feels usable and natural as opposed to adding every bell and whistle I can think of that would you know maybe draw people into something
that they don't understand as much uh because I you know you totally could like say oh it's got 20 built-in effects like all this crazy stuff and I think that kind of stuff like
um
you know, is flashy and works from a marketing perspective.
ah But I want people to actually use this stuff and enjoy it.
And I want it to help them make music.
And, you know, I would rather people not buy it than they buy it and it just sits there and they never use it.
And they feel disappointed about that.
Hmm.
Yeah, right.
You could have a couple extra bullet points in the features.
I would say includes all of these effects.
But it is nice.
I do appreciate that a lot more and more these days.
Something that kind of does its job.
And it's the thing I'll go to when I want that and not trying to do everything all the time.
Yeah, yeah, it's a very, mean, coming from my like background with, with your Iraq modular, like everything in that format is so stripped down.
You know, I mean, I mean, the original format is literally like you're patching the oscillator into the filter into the VCA, whatever.
um But it's, you know, it's a more like mature.
environment now, but it's still very common for like, you know, a delay is just a delay.
It doesn't have any reverb built in.
Oftentimes it doesn't have any kind of like tape effect or warble because you can add that with an LFO.
And I think that that's kind of like where I'm the background that I'm coming from is like.
um
There's so many things out there that just do their job so well already.
Like let's not reinvent the wheel.
Let's kind of, you know, do something cool with the sum of our parts here.
How long have you been into the modular experience?
so I started with modular in college.
I had this really awesome, um, professor who kind of like straddled the music and computer science department.
Um, for context, I was a computer science major.
and I was one credit short of a music minor, which is still a little sad.
But I had this really awesome professor, his name is Jeff Snyder, and he has a company that's called Snyder Phonics, where he builds like just some really awesome stuff.
Like he's been building like a, he has an electronic version of a bass and a lap steel guitar where it's like totally like, you play it, but it's like totally synthesized.
Hmm.
But anyway, he had a course that was just called like, I don't know, like studio techniques or something like that, where we started so basic.
We started at like, this is a cable and this is how you wrap it.
ah Yeah.
Yeah.
And then we got into like, this is a DAW.
ah
This is how it records sound, know, samples, sample rate, buffers, whatever.
m And kind of like, you know, to me, the like holy grail of that class was that he had uh put together like a pretty robust Euro rack system.
um I don't know how he convinced the department that that was worth the money, but there was like this,
you pretty substantial like Euro-Rack system in the classroom.
And, you know, one of the assignments was like, you had to book time to come into the space.
um And the task was to like record a song with the modular.
And how you did that was completely up to you.
You could...
live track something, do it all in one take.
You could sample off like different parts of it and, you know, chop that up in the DAW.
you know, it was just totally up to you.
And I think that experience of like booking like two hours, you know, at like 11 PM on a Tuesday or whatever, and just sitting with this thing and being like, what the hell is
this?
What am I going to do with this?
How do I work with this?
Um,
That was that just ended up being a really cool experience.
m Because at first I had no idea what I was doing, but, you know, going back to what we were saying before, like forcing yourself to sit down with it and um kind of grapple with
it and figure out what you're going to do, like what you want to do and how do do it?
um That was just like a really meaningful experience for me.
um and i think
You know, I think it's just so cool to like, in a classroom setting like that, you know, kind of get the academic side of stuff like, this is an oscillator, this is a filter, this
is what it's doing.
But then to actually go in there and sit down with this thing and being like, whoa, if I just like listen to the oscillator itself, it sounds crazy.
But then once I put it into the filter, I actually understand what it's doing.
And just kind of like having that experience really.
like solidified like kind of the usefulness of the format and it ended up just really clicking for me.
um So once I graduated college and got a job, it was a goal of mine to like set up a home studio um and Modular, like I knew Modular was gonna be a part of that.
That's cool that you got the time to get the hands-on experience, you know, just tweak and play with it.
Cause I think you need that.
You kind of need that with everything really, but something like that to really get why we would want it, why we want to use it, go through all that trouble.
Yeah, and even I mean, it's it's just so different than any other way you would make music.
um Like I remember.
Like sitting there, like just staring at this thing and thinking about like.
Like the oscillators just make noise forever, whether or not you're listening to them.
And like if you're someone who's like coming from like a guitar background or a piano background or whatever, it's like this thing only.
make sound when you actually like hit it.
But this thing is sitting there making sound and it's like my choice whether or not to listen to it or to use it for you know whatever other reason I want to use it for.
ah So it's really like ah it's like an orchestra at your fingertips if you want to use it that way.
ah You know everything's just doing its job and it's ready you know.
ready and willing, like whatever you want to do with it.
ah So as somebody who had kind of come from a band background and kind of like a songwriter background, it was really enticing because it's like, oh, this is a band that I
don't have to convince.
I don't have to convince them that this song is cool.
They'll just do it.
So I think it's a great platform for former ah
control freaks and band leaders.
the whole DAW in general is nice for that.
Yeah, it is funny how many, you know, like modular folks that I know, like they have basically, we all have the same background.
It's like, yeah, I used to play guitar in bands and then for whatever reason, this like format really appealed to me and I just ran with it ever since.
And I think we're maybe the folks that don't work well with others.
Yeah, in a way, I think it brought me full circle that, or maybe 180, that having full control over everything and being able to do everything has now made me enjoy other
people's input a lot more.
You know, like I don't even want to think about what the bass is going to do.
Just, yeah, come up with something, you know, whatever you come up with and we'll react to that.
We'll work on it.
Mm-hmm.
I get a big kick out of that now.
It's almost as if I've programmed the DAW to do something random, like in the key of the song.
And then, all right, now what all I do?
How will I compliment that?
Instead of trying to control it, no, no, play this, play this, because I want to play this.
Yeah, I think I don't get the experience of playing with people very much unfortunately, but I Mean it's really cool when it does happen.
It's just rare for a number of reasons um But I really love the experience of going to a Going to a show and just kind of like turning off the part of your brain.
That's like What would I do?
How would I have played that?
You know what?
What would I have done after that transition?
Like it doesn't matter.
Just let it like wash over you and really listen and appreciate what someone else is doing and you know, just kind of Chill, you don't have to Don't have to contribute to everything
ah So I really enjoy that that process that's probably like the most analogous for me is just you know that that kind of intentional listening and appreciating what somebody
else's brain and
fingers.
Thought would be cool in that moment.
Hmm.
Yeah, right.
Just to take it in and soak it up and see where, where it goes instead of trying to, oh, that's kind of in a way like the critic too.
think when you think that way too much, then when you're making stuff, that voice is still very loud.
Maybe you shouldn't have done that.
Maybe there's a better way.
And so much.
These days I'm really appreciating letting things happen and going with what happens and not questioning it as much.
I kind of noticed that, at least in some of the videos I've seen of you performing, that it seems like, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you do this in a, I don't
know if it's improvisational, but in a more kind of like a long flow and not so much, um,
going back and fixing and changing things, but more letting things kind of grow naturally.
Yeah, guess I would say like those performances are really based around like giving yourself levers to pull.
ah You know, like a lot of times I'll set up like, okay, here's like three kind of ambient atmospheres or whatever.
And, you know, maybe like a melody to go with each one and
You know then from there you're just kind of like Segwaying through it how it feels natural ah And the improvisation comes from like, you know, how long do I sit on?
this one particular part like You know, when do I feel inclined to kind of introduce a variation?
or maybe The machine just did something cool and I decided to play off of it ah
It's kind of how I've recorded albums as well, especially in my last album.
m I think at the heart of kind of each of the pieces was really like a core recording that just kind of went all the way through.
And, know, semi-generative, semi-manually performed.
um
But I think a lot of uh the other stuff that happens in the piece kind of branches off of that, where I'm kind of listening to what the machine and I made, this kind of bedrock for
a track.
And I'm like, the filter kind of opened in a cool way there.
Maybe this should be a part where we amp everything up.
Maybe that's where the...
you know, we bring in the hook or whatever.
um So I try to, like I always try to have a combination of, you know, what's performative and what's kind of like scripted or kind of like, I don't know, scripted performance or
performed script.
ah
right?
Like you're not, I mean, I see like I'm looking at what you have right now and there are a lot of wires connected.
A lot of cables go into different places.
It's not like you're starting with nothing and do like the signal generators coming out.
And then, you know, so I think that's like true about performance with the laptop and all.
Mm-hmm.
lot of people think that once you have the laptop, you kind of just open it and hit play and the song goes, but you're basically building your instrument inside there.
If you're using MIDI controllers and mapping them and coming up with songs and parts, there's a lot of prep work that goes into that.
So I could see how you must need to do that, especially when you have all kinds of choices and modules to work with.
Yeah, and the other thing is it's very ephemeral as well.
You kinda gotta hit record, especially with a patch or whatever.
If I came back to the same thing tomorrow and turned everything off and turned it on the next day, who knows what's gonna happen?
ah
are in a different relationship to each other, right?
tuning or some stuff like kind of dumps all of its audio buffers when the power cycles.
um So there's only so much you can really make sure happens.
So you have to do it in the moment to a certain extent, which is I think powerful.
I mean, that's kind of when everything is most fresh as well.
Yeah.
Do you find it hard to unplug things?
say like what you have right now, right?
Is it like, I can't touch anything because I've got this thing going or is it?
Yeah.
jam by like unplugging basically everything.
Yeah, it's like...
um
It's just...
I don't know.
I find that I can't really go into anything with like something's being prescribed or it's not really gonna work.
I just kind of have to start completely fresh or I'm not gonna do anything.
There must be a point in the process where you realize I have to record or I have to turn this into something.
Um, and I think that's true even when you're writing songs, when you're playing with other people, there's a point where you have to decide like, this is going to be the thing we're
working on right now.
Do you have any ways of knowing?
Do you just let the
recording run and just go or do you have any techniques you like?
Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I'd call it a technique, but I feel I feel like I try not to lose sight of the ultimate goal, which is making something musical, like making music.
And for whatever I'm exploring, like if I've made a cool noise bed or kind of like abstract
rhythm or whatever.
I try to always take it to the step past, like this is cool.
And I try to take it to the next step, which is like, this is a really cool aspect of this song.
And I think of it like.
um Like I'm really into impressionist painting, for example.
And if you look at a lot of these paintings, like if you were to look at a painting of a landscape or a painting of a pond or something, if you just cropped the painting to be the
sky or the reflections in the water,
It would like you would look at this and you'd be like, this is completely abstract.
It's meaningless.
Whatever.
Like I don't like it's cool, but I don't know what I'm getting from this.
But once you get the full picture, you know, and maybe there's a landscape or a cabin or trees or whatever.
All of a sudden you're like, wow, that is a really interesting way to paint a sky or to paint the reflections in the water.
ah
And I feel like it's, you know, obviously the painter decided like, what is an interesting way to paint the sky, but they didn't stop there.
They took it a step further and contextualized it.
So I would say that's what I try to do in my music.
Um, I try to come up with something unique and interesting.
Um, maybe it's like an
a generative atmosphere or kind of a really interesting sound source or whatever.
And I try to place that or build like a song or composition around that.
And that's usually when I know that it's time to record.
Once I feel like I've properly contextualized that thing and kind of succeeded in making music.
ah Obviously like everyone's definition of music is different and like a really awesome noise bed to one person Could just be a track, you know upload to Spotify But for me
personally, I I really appreciate when there's a bit of like ah There's something abstract and it's working with or maybe against You know something a bit more colloquial like
chord changes or a recognizable drum beat or a catchy melody or whatever.
Hmm.
That's a cool comparison because yeah, like if the sky doesn't really look like the sky until you have some earth in there or even some clouds or planets or whatever you want to
put in there, there's a context.
But as you also said, like if you did crop in on that, someone might look at that and be like, this is like really cool abstract.
You know, I'm going to do my own interpretation.
but to bring it in on some of the more familiar, and I've seen you playing some guitar in there, for instance, that kind of grounds it a little bit.
we can sort of, that's almost like the cabin you said, you know, it's recognizable more so, or the beat that comes in.
Yeah, it's kind of like the age old question of like keeping something instrumental or adding vocals and even having, you know, like two lines of vocals or something can just
make something feel so human.
And I mean, my stuff is instrumental, but I try to make sure that there's some, there's something that was performed in there.
um that you can kind of like recognize as like, yeah, like a human made this.
Hmm.
I like those touches a lot actually.
And I teach a sampling class for Berkeley online and some of it's like pretty abstract and some of it is like making sounds with things you found in the kitchen or wherever in your
house.
And I almost always find when something human comes in, a voice, even if it's talking or chatter or breathing, it just
takes it to another level.
Not to say like it's anything less without it, but I do really enjoy that element.
That something alive was there, not just all these static things.
And it makes the static things feel more alive on some level.
Yeah, absolutely.
um One of my favorite beats that I made with some friends, like, I don't know, probably a decade ago.
We all just like got together and I think we like recorded like, I forget, was like a somebody had like a xylophone or clock and spiel or whatever and like we just like
recorded a melody off of it but like nobody shut up so there's like all of these like chat there's chatter in the background and like people laughing and
I just like added like such a vibe to it.
um And I've heard like, you know, some people like when they're recording like modular like synth stuff, like they kind of they'll have like a room mic or like a god mic going
um just to kind of like capture like just to like capture what what you were hearing like in the space, you know, because like
I mean, in a technical sense, maybe like something is really like resonating in the space and like there's a real power to like this one particular like bass note that, you know,
is integral to whatever you're producing.
Um, or maybe there's just stuff going on.
I mean, in this room that I'm in, like when I write music in the morning, there's birds and, um, you know, insects and all kinds of stuff that's kind of going on.
like right outside the window.
ah And a lot of times that kind of like can catalyze what I'm doing.
Like I'm thinking like, what should this melody be?
And then like a bird kind of chimes in and I'm like, yeah, B flat sounds good here.
So it would be cool to kind of incorporate that sort of thing sometimes.
Hmm.
I've become very loose about quiet while I'm recording or even like windows being open or things like that.
I love when that stuff gets in.
was recording some stuff with my band and I was doing vocals, background vocals, and I had all the windows and doors open.
was like, okay, cool.
I just see what happens in it.
There's a spaciousness that it...
brings to it.
And sometimes, like you said, like, and that's a really great example that like the room has a sound and I know in my room, depending where I stand, totally changes everything.
So to have a mic that's capturing what it felt like to hear it, because sometimes when it goes directly in to the digital recorder, something gets lost in translation.
Yeah, I mean even if you're using like an amp simulator or something it doesn't, you know, it doesn't really sound the same as actually like being in a space and having that
kerfuffle going around.
Yeah, just the madness of it.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's cool.
We should mention um Waymaker, the new one.
Yeah, how do you explain that?
this is, okay, like it's a sequencer, but that's not fair.
It's like calling the other one a looper, I guess.
m
so I call it a it's a modular sequencer And I think it's it's modular in three ways if you'll bear with me ah One is that it's it's super inspired by Euro rec It's not really
inspired by a particular module or anything, but just the things that are available to you and
in Euro-rack where you can have one sequence that is maybe like, know, the pitches are summed with another sequencer.
ah So one sequence is transposing another, or ah you could have a rhythmic sequence, which is uh actually like clocking or progressing another sequencer.
ah
So you know, you can take the basic idea of, you know, play this pitch on, on step one and play this pitch on step two.
And you can start to play around with, you know, when do you actually play those steps?
When do you step through the sequencer?
you know, you could put some probability between those things.
So you have a rhythm, but it's only
actually firing 50 % of the time and actually progressing you through that melody.
So all of a sudden you've got like a melody that's repeating, but it's like, when does it repeat?
I don't know.
So these are kind of like ah ideas that I've already, that I've always like really appreciated and in Euro-rack where you can just kind of take something simple and kind of
manipulate it and, and
kind of combine it with other things that are relatively simple and get something more complex out of it and more interesting.
So it's inspired by modular.
It ah actually functions in a modular way.
So I think it has 10 different sequencers and utilities in there, which are each relatively simple.
You know, there's like a basic step sequencer.
There's like a probabilistic sequencer, is kind of like, you know, what's the probability of each note in the scale happening?
There's like a morphing sequencer, which like randomly changes every, every loop, which is fun.
And you are free to kind of take these simple parts and create a customizable chain ah of, of sequencers that are kind of interacting with each other that are
you know, manipulating the output of one another or one of them is, you know, ah progressing another one through its steps.
So it's a totally customizable ah environment where you're combining kind of whatever you want, basically.
And then the last way that it's modular is that it ah can interact with my other plugins.
So...
My other plugins right now are basically um two flavors of loopers where, ah you know, one of them is you can stack up to five loops at once.
And the other one is kind of like a, like we said, as a looper running through a granular algorithm.
Waymaker can connect directly to those other plugins and kind of manipulate their pitches.
So you can sequence the
pitch of each of the loopers or you can, um, you know, make each grain and Ridgewalk have like a percentage chance of going up an octave and just a lot of, a lot of fun stuff like
that.
Um, so I'm, I'm trying to build up a, you know, a unique ecosystem that's kind of similar to something that you'd have in, in Euro Rack where it's like, you know, I've got
something basic here.
Like this is a delay.
You know, it's got a, uh, it's got a delay time and it's got a feedback control.
But if you pair it with something else, like, you know, now you're sequencing the delay time or modulating it with an LFO or whatever, like all of a sudden it becomes like a
totally different thing.
Um, you know, like that's how you make a chorus or like a phaser or flanger or whatever.
Um, you know, that's, it's born out of just taking a delay and
doing stuff with it.
ah So I tried to kind of ah take that ethos from Euro-rack where, you know, oftentimes you're like messing around with something, you're like, this is cool.
What if I took it one step further?
ah Then you can load up Waymaker now and take it one step further if you want.
It's pretty cool that they can communicate with each other like that and connect.
And then you've got already with the other guys that you already have, like there are so much variety in what they do.
And now there's a lot, a lot of places you can go.
And it's kind of stuff, I think where
A very little bit goes a long way.
So if you tried to do all that stuff, it'd probably be very chaotic, a couple subtle things.
And then next thing you know, you might just have a really short loop or melody that is constantly evolving and growing and morphing.
Yeah.
And that's, that's really the goal.
Um, I mean, I think, you know, going back to the idea of like catalyzing inspiration, I, I feel like, um you know, with way maker, I feel the most kind of satisfied with that
because like coming up with a melody is such a, an
Integral and like early part of songwriting usually You know, maybe you have some chords maybe you have like an atmosphere you don't really know what to do with it um I Mean I
love just like taking one of these Euro rack sequencers and like I don't know what it's doing, but I'm gonna Patch it up to a sound and see what happens um
And from that point, once you hear anything, then you can iterate on it and uh try to steer it in a way that ah fits what you would do with it.
uh But just starting from scratch, if you just sat me down on the piano, I don't know if I'd come up with anything very good.
So sometimes you need a little push and...
I think, you know, I've actually like been using Waymaker a ton in my own music, ah which is usually a good sign.
If I'm like not so stressed out by the idea of like looking at this thing by the time I've released it, it's usually a good thing.
ah But it's, I definitely feel
proud of how much in my experience and from the feedback I've gotten, just the inspiration it can ah help people find, which has been really awesome to hear.
Yeah, that's gotta be a really cool part of it.
Just to, I love that whenever I make sound packs or something and people make music, I'm just like, but you did that with those.
Like it's always kind of blows my mind.
Like, wow, how'd you do that?
Yeah, and you're probably hearing it in like a context you never would have like imagined it.
like you're using like, I don't know, like my electric piano pack and you're like in your uh metal song or something.
Your harsh noise project.
yeah, I'm actually surprised how often I can't tell and I don't recognize it when people tell me I'm like, where is it?
Like, it's that thing.
Wow.
Yeah, I mean it's it's the same for me where I mean people You know people see their own value in something really it's like the You know beauty is in the eye of the beholder um
You know people will buy something because it appeals to them to make X kind of music and That's not something I would have ever thought to do with it um
And that's just really cool.
Like the idea that somebody else thought it was cool enough to kind of extend the usage in that way.
And, you know, sometimes that means I get a very valid feature request for something I'd never considered because, you know, I don't work in a certain way.
But that just makes the end result even stronger, I think.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
It's really cool stuff.
And it seems like you're kind of cranking them out at a pretty good pace.
Because how long you been?
Just a couple of years, right?
Yeah, I think Weeping Wall, is my first plugin, I think that came out in December 2023.
And that took me about maybe eight months to kind of put together.
And I think Ridgewalk came out the summer after that.
And now Waymaker has been about
a little less than a year since Ridgewalk.
um But it's getting faster.
The development process is getting more efficient, which is good, just as I learn more things um and can drill down to the core idea of what I'm trying to build a little bit
more efficiently.
um
and also just like building things that are way more complex.
I think Waymakers, it's got like double the lines of code of Ridgewalk and triple the lines of code of Weeping Wall, but I managed to put it together and around the same time
frame.
So, you know, just it's...
It's cool to see yourself get to a point where you can do something more ambitious um and just be able to take a crazy idea and a crazier idea and an even crazier idea and kind of
ah turn them into something that exists and people think is cool sometimes.
ah But yeah, there's...
uh
plenty more in the pipeline as well.
ah
I know that there are at least like four things I want to build and for now it's uh it's you know going strong enough that I think I'll be able to do that which is awesome because
when I released Weeping Wall I was kind of like I don't know we'll see we'll see if anyone cares about this or likes it or whatever and it's cool that almost two years later you
know I'm I'm still doing it so
It's just all about keeping it going as long as you can, really.
They have a distinct vibe and feel to them.
And now that there's three, there's uh some connective tissue between them that they feel like the same company and they have a look and you know, I guess like it's sounds like it
shouldn't matter.
but it does matter.
I want to look at something nice.
And I find like the look you have for these to be inspiring and it's cool.
And when I play with Ridgewalker, I want to watch my audio come up and I want to watch those little like play head bumps.
I don't even know what to call them, but I want to watch them go across it and hear what it sounds like.
changing the pitch and watching the mountains get taller and smaller.
Yeah.
fun.
touches that I guess you probably could just give us sliders and numbers probably, right?
And we could, you know, have dropdown menus and it would be technically similar, but there's something, it takes you someplace.
I think it really does.
brings you into a mood.
Yeah, yeah, think, I mean, the ability to have robust visuals is something that's kind of unique to plugins, um you know, on like a guitar pedal.
to like knobs and faders, like the physical thing that they're representing and knobs and faders are great in the real world, but they're weird with a mouse and trying to turn a
knob.
don't know if I should go up or sideways or it gets weird when you get past a certain point.
Yeah, ah exactly.
I get that these things are inspired by something that exists in the real world, but it doesn't necessarily have to be skeuomorphic.
On a guitar pedal, at best you have a couple LEDs, and it's like, if it's blinking faster, it's in this mode.
If it's blue, it means it's reversed or whatever.
Just stuff you have to memorize.
Um, so I, you know, back to the question of like, why should this thing exist?
I think that the visuals and kind of making something engaging and, and fun and exciting, like that's kind of a, a huge advantage that software can have.
Um, which, you know, as you just pointed out, like is, is usually a little under.
represented and underexplored.
so, you know, I, I try to just keep it interesting and, know, selfishly, I try to create something that, you know, advertises itself.
Like people, if they're uploading like a screen recording or whatever, whatever they're working on, like, I want it to be something that you don't want to close the window.
ah
Yeah, all right.
want to have like sitting on the screen.
ah But at the same time, like I want it to, I want it to be something that you don't want to close anyway.
Like, you know, I want it to be something that's almost like a, like in Ridgewalk's case, it's like a sort of a visualizer ah that you could just leave running as long as you want.
Yeah, I kind of want to see it moving around.
There are definitely plugins like that, that I think people, if they're making their little clips for their reels or whatever, that they leave open because they look cool.
They're pleasing to look at, but maybe some of the more simple, utilitary kind of deals.
No one wants to look at that.
Yeah, I mean, and I think that is probably correlated with how inspirational the tool is.
You know, if I'm, I don't know, configuring, like I want a dotted eighth note delay.
I only have to look at a plugin for 20 seconds to do that.
ah So I don't know if I'm getting much inspiration out of that.
Um, but if it's something that I feel like, um, you know, I'm forced to sit there and watch it a little bit.
Um, you know, maybe that kind of entices you to fiddle with some settings or you just stumble upon something that you weren't really expecting before.
Um, so I do think like the aesthetics can be a
a really big factor in how, ah just how fun something is to use and like makes you come back to it, whether it's in like that session or the next session or whatever.
I enjoy doing that from time to time when I'm making instruments or effects to like name the macros something like dream sparkle instead of filter granular delay or something so
technical that um feels like you're doing science more than music.
oh
you know you're in this more creative that's the one thing I love about like the op1 I've always loved that about that it's you know you're manipulating these graphics you don't
even know what the knobs are doing half the time they don't even tell you so you're just listening and watching the thing change and makes you want to play around with it
Yeah, there's definitely a sweet spot to it.
um You know, it's like...
I mean, one of the last things I usually do is kind of nail down um the terminology of everything in the UI.
um you know, I think it's always kind of a question of how technical to get.
um
And so like, for example, on Ridgewalk, like there's a setting called blur and that's, you know, it's kind of how smooth the grains are, like how, you know, how much attack and
release do they have?
But then it also starts to introduce a reverb as well.
If you kind of push it to the more extreme settings.
um And you know, that could totally be labeled like, I don't know, like grain smoothness and reverb.
But I think it's, like, I feel like that's an example of, kind of, I feel happy with nailing that combination of, it's a little abstract, but you can also figure it out.
Like, if I told you, like, this is gonna blur the sound, like, you can kind of figure out what that probably means.
ah And from there, you're, using your ears.
that sound in my head.
Visualize isn't the right word.
Is there a word for imagining sound?
Like visualize is imagining.
Maybe it's just something.
But yeah, get that.
Yeah, I love that control, by the way.
That's kind of a magic control right there, the blur.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's an example of something I wanted to make sure was on the front panel for if you don't want to think about it too much.
This is the one knob ambient control, basically.
I think if you would have named it the more technical names, in this case, I understand blur better what that's going to do to the sound better than I would if you said, we're
going to change the attack and release of the greens.
That would be like, what's the, does that mean?
What's that going to do?
Blur?
I'm like, okay.
Got it.
Yeah, and I think it's a...
like it goes both directions where if, you know, there's a control and you can't boil it down to a simple term like that, like maybe it shouldn't be one control, maybe it's doing
too much.
um You know, it's kind of like a signal in some ways.
um I'm always like, you know, I wear, I wear a lot of hats.
You know, there's kind of like the original version of me that's like dreaming up this idea.
And then there's like the engineer who's building it and the product manager who's kind of figuring out like what needs to even be in there at all.
And the marketing guy.
ah But you know, when, you know, sometimes, ah you know, when you're doing that,
marketing stuff or thinking about like, okay, how am I going to actually get people to understand this?
Like if I can't figure out a way to get people to understand it, then maybe it's not understandable enough.
It's not digestible.
Um, so it's time to, you know, go back to the drawing board a little bit.
make sense.
I could see how they inform each other a bit but it's also switching gears.
It's like that with everything we do I guess, right?
These days a lot of the jobs of the music maker was many jobs, many different people, engineer, producer, know, talent.
Yeah.
Well, it's, uh I mean, a lot of times it feels like the uh actual, um the specialization and like the expert aspect of, uh you know, those individual roles can be lost as we're
all kind of like trying to do, you know, 65 % of.
Hmm.
used to be an entire job.
It's a gift and a curse.
It's awesome that you could, you know, record a song and mix it and master it and release it and market it.
Do all the things that musicians have to do these days.
ah But it's also, you know, it's, really nice when you get to kind of witness like a, you know, a master at work.
ah Like with my music, it's always been mastered by someone else.
And I think that's just a really cool and important part of the process to like send it off and a human being is working on this and when you when they send it back, it sounds
awesome.
Like that's a that's a great part of the process.
And I think I would be sad if the mastering step were annoying and something that I had to really figure out myself.
ah So I.
I think it's it's nice when.
we still get the rare opportunity to kind of let, you know, let the specialists and the masters shine.
Yeah, we get to do it, but it is nice.
Especially when it comes back, it's almost like magic.
Wow, how'd you do that?
Yeah.
And it's kind of the same thing with the plugin design where, um I mean, you know, I'm really doing everything from the product design to the implementation to the UI and the
visuals and the graphics and stuff.
um And I think, you know, in some cases, like it's, it's really, it would probably be beneficial to involve someone else.
ah You know, I'm especially like with testing and stuff like that.
That's when all kinds of ideas that I'd never even like conceived of like start popping up ah
But I think, you know, like when I was just starting out, was kind of like just, you know, scrappy trying to do everything that I can myself.
And I still try to do that, but you know, it's getting to the point where I feel like I can involve other people as well, which is really nice.
It's awesome stuff man.
I really like what you're doing and a lot of fun to play around with and I've been lost in these worlds that I've created with your stuff quite a bit lately.
So thanks for bringing it into existence and sharing it with the world.
Yeah, I mean thanks for thinking that's
That's the easy part.
He did a great job.
We can send people to aqeeladamsound.com and I'll put the links in the show notes.
You have one of those unusual situations where there's no U after the Q in your name.
A Q E E L A A D A M sound.com for anyone just listening.
But yeah, I'll put in the show notes for people to find.
And I wish you continued luck and hope that, you know, Waymaker is a big hit and people get onto it.
I'll be playing around with it some more, trying to figure it out and also just let it do its thing and surprise me.
I like that these devices all kind of have that where there's an element of surprise.
It seems like around every corner.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's the goal.
um You know, I don't know, probably 20 % surprise, 80 % feeling like you know what you're doing.
I don't know what the right ratio is.
eh But yeah, no, I really appreciate you, know, checking them out and, you know, obviously like someone like you who kind of...
I'm sure there's so much stuff that comes across your desk and you've got so much experience.
Like I really appreciate you kind of taking the time with them and kind of seeing the value in them.
Thanks.
They stand out.
really do.
You're doing something special and it's pretty awesome that this is all coming out of your mind and into reality.
uh
sometimes it comes out of the mud too much I need to like I'm like I need to go play video games for 10 hours straight
Yeah, it's always good to kind of cleanse the palette a little, come back fresh.
absolutely.
Because, I mean, it's funny, like, as soon as you start doing something you love, you almost have to hold yourself back sometimes.
Mm-hmm, right.
Yeah, you gotta like keep making it.
You probably want to just play with it.
Yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, I, I like to kind of juggle like, um, you know, the way makers out there, like, what are the follow-up updates I want to do for it?
And then there's like the stuff that I'm building right this second.
And then there's the stuff that I'm dreaming off on the horizon.
So, you know, you can kind of, there's always something to do and it's, it's kind of nice to be able to pick and choose what feels most,
inspiring and effective in that moment.
That's the beauty of working for yourself, as I'm sure you know.
Yeah, yeah it is.
Yeah, well, we're all benefiting from it.
Cool.
yeah, everyone listening, check it out.
Akiladomsound.com, Ridgewalk, Waymaker, and Weeping Wall, all unique in their own right.
And they play nice together too.
cool.
All right.
I think we did a podcast here.
Sweet.
Let's see, I'll hit the record button here.
I made it go away, I can't...
There we go.