1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,469 The Productive Dentist Academy Podcast Network. 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:04,520 That's how this works. 3 00:00:04,530 --> 00:00:07,270 You know, addiction is, you don't get to pick and choose the parts of addiction. 4 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:08,390 Addiction takes over. 5 00:00:08,429 --> 00:00:09,000 It really does. 6 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:09,809 It is what it is. 7 00:00:09,809 --> 00:00:10,749 And that's what it was for me. 8 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,690 Now, 22 plus years later, it's like talking about a different person. 9 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,110 Welcome to the Everyday Practices Dental Podcast. 10 00:00:20,555 --> 00:00:22,675 I'm Regan Robertson and my cohost, Dr. 11 00:00:22,675 --> 00:00:23,805 Chad Johnson, Dr. 12 00:00:23,805 --> 00:00:27,905 Maggie Augustine and I are on a mission to share the stories of everyday dentists 13 00:00:27,915 --> 00:00:32,024 who generate extraordinary results using practical proven methods you can 14 00:00:32,025 --> 00:00:33,735 take into your own dental practice. 15 00:00:33,765 --> 00:00:36,874 If you are ready to reclaim your time so you can focus on great 16 00:00:36,874 --> 00:00:40,454 patient care without sacrificing yourself along the way buckle up. 17 00:00:40,515 --> 00:00:41,405 and listen in. 18 00:00:44,535 --> 00:00:47,915 Doctor, did you know that PDA coaching doctors grew two hundred 19 00:00:47,915 --> 00:00:51,355 and nineteen thousand dollars on average in just the last ten months? 20 00:00:51,455 --> 00:00:55,445 If your revenue goals fell short this year and you suspect that patient communication 21 00:00:55,465 --> 00:00:58,425 and inefficient systems are holding you back, Productive Dentist Academy 22 00:00:58,425 --> 00:01:00,285 can help, but you have to take action. 23 00:01:00,315 --> 00:01:03,214 Register today for the PDA conference March 13th through 24 00:01:03,215 --> 00:01:04,675 the 15th in Frisco, Texas. 25 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:05,860 Go to ProductiveDentist. 26 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:07,050 com to snap up your seat. 27 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,330 It is the nation's leading course for growing your practice and your team. 28 00:01:10,350 --> 00:01:14,490 Plus, while you're there, you can set up a free 60 minute session to identify 29 00:01:14,490 --> 00:01:16,260 your own unique opportunities for growth. 30 00:01:16,270 --> 00:01:21,089 And if you act fast, you could score a one on one with PDA's co founder, Dr. 31 00:01:21,089 --> 00:01:22,090 Bruce Baird. 32 00:01:22,140 --> 00:01:22,640 That's right. 33 00:01:22,660 --> 00:01:25,290 We're only offering 10 and then his calendar is full. 34 00:01:25,300 --> 00:01:26,000 Don't wait. 35 00:01:26,030 --> 00:01:27,080 Go to ProductiveDentist. 36 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:29,670 com right now and have a great 2025. 37 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:30,970 We'll see you in Texas. 38 00:01:33,900 --> 00:01:36,890 Welcome everybody to Everyday Practices Dental Podcast. 39 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:41,670 This is co host Chad Johnson here, and I'm here with co host Regan 40 00:01:41,670 --> 00:01:44,960 Robertson and co host Maggie Augustin. 41 00:01:44,990 --> 00:01:47,170 Maggie, Regan, how are you both doing today? 42 00:01:47,250 --> 00:01:47,910 I'm great. 43 00:01:47,910 --> 00:01:49,110 Thank you for asking. 44 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:54,420 I am excited to rip the bandaid off and dive into a really good discussion today. 45 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:54,855 That's serious. 46 00:01:54,855 --> 00:01:55,215 That's 47 00:01:55,220 --> 00:01:55,230 right. 48 00:01:55,290 --> 00:01:57,030 Today we have Alan Mead with us. 49 00:01:57,030 --> 00:01:57,360 Dr. 50 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:57,930 Alan Mead. 51 00:01:58,020 --> 00:02:01,380 You're practicing up in Michigan, but is it near Detroit? 52 00:02:01,380 --> 00:02:02,820 Tell me where you are, Alan. 53 00:02:02,850 --> 00:02:03,930 My practice is 54 00:02:03,930 --> 00:02:06,660 in Saginaw, Michigan, which is about an hour and a half, 55 00:02:06,660 --> 00:02:08,280 almost due north of Detroit. 56 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:08,310 Okay. 57 00:02:08,310 --> 00:02:11,940 And I live in Midland, Michigan, which is a couple hours north of Detroit. 58 00:02:11,940 --> 00:02:12,300 Got it. 59 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,150 And I first met you as a fellow podcaster. 60 00:02:15,150 --> 00:02:16,143 Mm-hmm . And Facebooker. 61 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:16,951 We were diving. 62 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:18,930 into this topic today. 63 00:02:18,930 --> 00:02:20,070 And I thought, you know what? 64 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,050 Alan's been forthright before. 65 00:02:22,090 --> 00:02:27,480 It would be healthy to have him on if he were so inclined to humor us to join. 66 00:02:27,550 --> 00:02:28,779 And sure enough, you were. 67 00:02:28,780 --> 00:02:30,810 So thank you very much for joining us today. 68 00:02:30,900 --> 00:02:31,350 Of course. 69 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:33,849 I want to kind of give some backdrop. 70 00:02:33,879 --> 00:02:39,620 We were wanting to talk about addiction on multiple episodes and you came to 71 00:02:39,620 --> 00:02:42,070 mind because you've overcome that. 72 00:02:42,070 --> 00:02:46,280 Can you kind of give a synopsis as long or as short as you want? 73 00:02:46,340 --> 00:02:51,529 And then our goal is to talk about how you go about being healthy after your 74 00:02:51,529 --> 00:02:56,220 history and making it stay as history and being healthy in a community with 75 00:02:56,250 --> 00:03:00,820 others and also being a good example to others because it's not something 76 00:03:00,820 --> 00:03:04,560 that anyone necessarily chooses other than the choices that you make. 77 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:04,850 Sure. 78 00:03:04,850 --> 00:03:07,060 So I graduated from the University of Minnesota in 79 00:03:07,069 --> 00:03:08,239 1997. 80 00:03:08,270 --> 00:03:08,590 Okay. 81 00:03:08,699 --> 00:03:10,569 I was not through college. 82 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:12,460 You know, for definitely high school and through college, I 83 00:03:12,460 --> 00:03:14,000 was not really a big drinker. 84 00:03:14,050 --> 00:03:17,090 I turned 21 when I was a senior in college, right before 85 00:03:17,090 --> 00:03:17,920 I started my senior year. 86 00:03:17,920 --> 00:03:22,130 And I, I drank like a college student then it never was a huge deal in college. 87 00:03:22,140 --> 00:03:24,620 I got to dental school and a couple of things happened. 88 00:03:24,630 --> 00:03:26,550 First off, college wasn't very hard for me. 89 00:03:26,580 --> 00:03:29,239 Like I didn't struggle to get grades and stuff in college, but dental 90 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:30,320 school was a whole different animal. 91 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,900 I was fine with the academics, but there was a fair amount of hazing involved and I 92 00:03:33,900 --> 00:03:36,150 wasn't naturally good at the dental stuff. 93 00:03:36,180 --> 00:03:37,890 You know, I didn't have hands of gold or anything like that. 94 00:03:37,900 --> 00:03:40,140 It was kind of like a dull normal that way. 95 00:03:40,140 --> 00:03:42,610 And I mean, And that was, that was everything, right? 96 00:03:42,610 --> 00:03:44,820 Like it was the first time I'd hit a challenge where I was like, wow, 97 00:03:44,820 --> 00:03:47,310 this is, and, and, and they were, you know, in dental school, they 98 00:03:47,310 --> 00:03:48,910 weren't super kind about that stuff. 99 00:03:48,910 --> 00:03:52,330 So I, I'd never really developed a lot of coping mechanisms prior to that cause 100 00:03:52,330 --> 00:03:53,440 I didn't really need them in the city. 101 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:54,709 You didn't have any need. 102 00:03:54,770 --> 00:03:54,949 Yeah. 103 00:03:54,949 --> 00:03:57,949 I mean, and I, everyone needs it, but I just really, I really hadn't. 104 00:03:57,949 --> 00:04:00,510 And the other thing is then you pour the, the culture of, of 105 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,330 drinking in dental school and in dentistry in general, actually. 106 00:04:03,330 --> 00:04:04,930 And so I, I mean, I got into it. 107 00:04:04,940 --> 00:04:07,739 So I lived at a, uh, at the Psi Omega house at University 108 00:04:07,739 --> 00:04:08,830 of Minnesota for three years. 109 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:10,040 And then I lived in an apartment. 110 00:04:10,205 --> 00:04:12,715 All of these places were places you'd walk everywhere. 111 00:04:12,745 --> 00:04:13,805 I never had to drive anywhere. 112 00:04:13,825 --> 00:04:16,735 I mean, I had a car, but I didn't, you know, I didn't find myself. 113 00:04:16,965 --> 00:04:17,975 I walked to school. 114 00:04:17,975 --> 00:04:22,125 I walked to, so this interesting thing about drinking like an alcoholic. 115 00:04:22,125 --> 00:04:24,885 I don't think I was probably an alcoholic then, but I drank like an alcoholic. 116 00:04:24,924 --> 00:04:25,975 I never had to drive anywhere. 117 00:04:25,995 --> 00:04:30,355 So a lot of times the consequences of drinking a lot are because you drive. 118 00:04:30,395 --> 00:04:32,695 Drinking is pretty socially acceptable. 119 00:04:32,750 --> 00:04:36,020 For the most part, just don't get the DUI and you're fine on some level. 120 00:04:36,020 --> 00:04:38,010 And I mean, that's an oversimplification to be sure. 121 00:04:38,010 --> 00:04:41,399 But so I didn't really find consequences of my drinking in 122 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:42,230 dental school really at all. 123 00:04:42,300 --> 00:04:45,139 And I drank like everyone else did, or at least it felt like that at the time. 124 00:04:45,139 --> 00:04:47,529 I didn't know this, but I mean, like drinking was a coping mechanism for me. 125 00:04:47,540 --> 00:04:50,030 And I mean, I kind of stumbled through dental school, you know, 126 00:04:50,039 --> 00:04:51,540 using that as a, as a crutch. 127 00:04:51,540 --> 00:04:54,110 And so I graduated from dental school in 1997. 128 00:04:54,150 --> 00:04:58,040 I came home, my dad's a dentist and I, I was, I was an associate for him. 129 00:04:58,090 --> 00:04:59,250 It's a whole new different. 130 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,150 heap of problems and I didn't come out feeling like a clinical rockstar, 131 00:05:03,190 --> 00:05:06,400 like some of these young dentists seem like they, they seem like now. 132 00:05:06,659 --> 00:05:08,349 I didn't have any podcasts to listen to. 133 00:05:08,349 --> 00:05:10,349 I didn't, I didn't have any kind of grounding at all. 134 00:05:10,349 --> 00:05:14,360 And my dad was a good mentor, but I don't think he realized that I had been 135 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,240 using alcohol as a coping mechanism. 136 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,340 And I, I just, I didn't hit the ground running and I would, drinking 137 00:05:19,340 --> 00:05:23,070 alone is a little weird kind of thing, you know, not that I didn't in 138 00:05:23,070 --> 00:05:26,275 retrospect, not that I didn't, but like drinking was not, sort of the thing. 139 00:05:26,275 --> 00:05:30,215 But in 1997, this medication called Vicaprofen, I don't 140 00:05:30,215 --> 00:05:31,525 know if you know how old. 141 00:05:31,545 --> 00:05:31,755 Yeah. 142 00:05:31,755 --> 00:05:32,005 Okay. 143 00:05:32,005 --> 00:05:35,065 So people remember that Vicaprofen was brand new and it was pointed hard 144 00:05:35,065 --> 00:05:36,685 at dentists because it was a, um, 145 00:05:36,944 --> 00:05:40,985 it was a beautiful marriage of ibuprofen and Vicodin. 146 00:05:41,444 --> 00:05:41,664 Yeah. 147 00:05:41,665 --> 00:05:41,884 Yeah. 148 00:05:41,884 --> 00:05:43,314 And hydrocodone exactly. 149 00:05:43,314 --> 00:05:46,075 And so it was, it was pointed towards, you know, surgical stuff and everything. 150 00:05:46,075 --> 00:05:48,955 I laughed about this before because they'd send you samples. 151 00:05:48,955 --> 00:05:51,495 You could send away, they'd send you a box of 20 or something like that. 152 00:05:51,495 --> 00:05:52,725 Send you a couple of boxes of 20. 153 00:05:52,765 --> 00:05:53,615 I tried one. 154 00:05:53,635 --> 00:05:56,024 I'd love to tell you that it's because I turned my ankle or something like that. 155 00:05:56,025 --> 00:05:57,604 I mean, I just want to try one and see what it's like. 156 00:05:57,604 --> 00:06:00,114 And I realized right off the bat, this was, this was the thing for me. 157 00:06:00,135 --> 00:06:00,755 This was definitely. 158 00:06:01,394 --> 00:06:05,415 So I didn't have to drink and all the downsides of drinking. 159 00:06:05,445 --> 00:06:06,624 It did not take me long. 160 00:06:06,635 --> 00:06:10,095 I could go in more depth, but I was, it was not long before I was off. 161 00:06:10,110 --> 00:06:13,320 the races and I was using opiates to as my coping mechanism and you 162 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:14,770 find that the samples didn't last. 163 00:06:14,770 --> 00:06:17,870 So I literally bought a practice, the same practice I'm in now, partly 164 00:06:17,870 --> 00:06:20,610 because I could then get away from my dad so I could like order with 165 00:06:20,610 --> 00:06:24,950 my own DEA number and it is, it was shockingly easy to order all this stuff. 166 00:06:24,980 --> 00:06:27,240 They were not, I think they do a better job now. 167 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:27,584 Yes. 168 00:06:27,585 --> 00:06:31,005 That stuff, but they didn't really back then, and it was about four years 169 00:06:31,005 --> 00:06:32,415 worth where I was in active addiction. 170 00:06:32,415 --> 00:06:33,225 It got worse and worse. 171 00:06:33,225 --> 00:06:34,485 And I was taking an awful lot. 172 00:06:34,485 --> 00:06:36,615 I was using it while I was working, I was doing everything that you're 173 00:06:36,615 --> 00:06:37,725 not supposed to do, obviously. 174 00:06:37,755 --> 00:06:39,675 And it was a coping mechanism, and frankly, it wasn't, 175 00:06:39,675 --> 00:06:40,575 didn't do a very good job. 176 00:06:40,575 --> 00:06:43,995 I didn't cope that well, but by the time I was, you know, physically and 177 00:06:43,995 --> 00:06:48,645 emotionally and I guess mentally addicted to it, I, there was no one goes in 178 00:06:48,735 --> 00:06:50,265 thinking that they'll become addicted. 179 00:06:50,265 --> 00:06:50,985 That's the other thing, like 180 00:06:51,075 --> 00:06:51,750 there's not a, a 181 00:06:51,755 --> 00:06:52,035 question. 182 00:06:52,220 --> 00:06:52,490 Yeah. 183 00:06:52,540 --> 00:06:59,850 So, um, you know, you're starting to enjoy it and go down that path. 184 00:07:00,050 --> 00:07:03,449 Can you recall any boundaries where you were like, you know what, if 185 00:07:03,449 --> 00:07:07,409 it gets to this, then it'll be a problem, but it's not right now. 186 00:07:07,479 --> 00:07:11,220 No, I mean, I know there were occasionally you would have what they call in 187 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,340 recovering communities, a moment of clarity where you're, you kind of stick 188 00:07:14,340 --> 00:07:16,580 your head up and go, wow, this is insane. 189 00:07:16,580 --> 00:07:18,630 I can't believe this is happening, but, but no. 190 00:07:18,630 --> 00:07:20,709 And I, I, all the boundaries you'd. 191 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,710 think that one would cross, I cross quite quickly, like, and you talk 192 00:07:23,710 --> 00:07:26,620 particularly physicians and dentists that get into these kind of drugs. 193 00:07:26,670 --> 00:07:29,280 They justify a lot and basically look, I'm better. 194 00:07:29,370 --> 00:07:32,310 I'm better when I'm, when I'm on, I'm better when I'm using, like, that's what I 195 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:37,379 wondered is if you, if you had a, an issue and like that you said, okay, here's my 196 00:07:37,380 --> 00:07:40,460 boundary, even if you crossed it after one week, if you said, you know what, I'm 197 00:07:40,460 --> 00:07:42,390 not going to use it during the workday. 198 00:07:42,420 --> 00:07:42,790 But then the 199 00:07:42,790 --> 00:07:44,270 people, yeah, most people do. 200 00:07:44,270 --> 00:07:45,330 I didn't, I didn't. 201 00:07:45,330 --> 00:07:46,410 That was one of the reasons that it was, I 202 00:07:46,420 --> 00:07:47,825 think when people that. 203 00:07:47,825 --> 00:07:50,515 I don't know that they're being really honest because no, no, no, no. 204 00:07:51,225 --> 00:07:53,875 You can't just do it on the weekend or in the afternoons. 205 00:07:53,885 --> 00:07:54,335 Correct. 206 00:07:54,395 --> 00:07:56,114 Um, I have a question for you though. 207 00:07:56,114 --> 00:07:57,055 Did anybody know 208 00:07:57,135 --> 00:07:57,875 later on? 209 00:07:57,875 --> 00:07:58,864 They did earlier on. 210 00:07:58,864 --> 00:08:01,934 I think people didn't know, but I mean, I, my behavior was bizarre. 211 00:08:01,965 --> 00:08:03,585 Like I, I mean, but you're a dentist. 212 00:08:03,604 --> 00:08:03,864 So 213 00:08:06,135 --> 00:08:08,615 But, but I mean, like, cause I was using opiates. 214 00:08:08,615 --> 00:08:09,655 I had some of the classic things. 215 00:08:09,655 --> 00:08:11,785 Have you ever heard of opiate nod where you're like, literally 216 00:08:11,785 --> 00:08:12,785 like you're kind of out of it. 217 00:08:12,795 --> 00:08:14,385 I, that was kind of classic for me. 218 00:08:14,385 --> 00:08:17,474 I missed a lot of work, um, whether that was because I was in withdrawal 219 00:08:17,474 --> 00:08:20,184 or because I just want to stay home and use or whatever, I missed a lot of work. 220 00:08:20,195 --> 00:08:24,144 It was sort of, sort of the classic opiate things I had towards the end. 221 00:08:24,144 --> 00:08:27,025 They all knew I was ordering it and, and I would get real desperate knowing 222 00:08:27,025 --> 00:08:28,735 when it was, and I was ordering a lot. 223 00:08:28,820 --> 00:08:30,920 And quite often because I ran through it so quickly. 224 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,390 So like my days would always get better if I was going to 225 00:08:33,390 --> 00:08:34,240 get a delivery and all that. 226 00:08:34,330 --> 00:08:35,150 a hot mess. 227 00:08:35,150 --> 00:08:35,610 It really was. 228 00:08:35,610 --> 00:08:35,885 This 229 00:08:35,885 --> 00:08:39,739 was like, what's Henry Schein or one of the, yeah, it's funny. 230 00:08:39,829 --> 00:08:43,679 Darby and Henry Schein were kind of my go to, but I also, after a while I'd use 231 00:08:43,680 --> 00:08:46,669 so much then I would, Oh, this is not, it's not a great situation, but I would, 232 00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:48,010 I would fake scripts to pharmacies. 233 00:08:48,030 --> 00:08:51,089 All the, there are pharmacies all across the, my, my region that 234 00:08:51,089 --> 00:08:52,100 I would, I would do that too. 235 00:08:52,100 --> 00:08:54,770 I would write a script for my wife or something like that and go pick it up. 236 00:08:54,770 --> 00:08:57,510 Just so, and each, each time you do that, that's a felony, by the 237 00:08:57,510 --> 00:08:58,639 way, just, you know, so like I. 238 00:08:58,780 --> 00:09:02,050 If, if I had ever been prosecuted, I would probably still be in prison right now. 239 00:09:02,050 --> 00:09:03,100 I did that so many times. 240 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,089 So the reality is, is it's like, Wait, Alan, 241 00:09:06,319 --> 00:09:08,740 Alan, what makes you brave enough to say this on the air? 242 00:09:08,740 --> 00:09:12,270 I mean, that, that makes me go, oh my gosh, why you're, you're sharing 243 00:09:12,270 --> 00:09:13,730 a story that that's, that's serious. 244 00:09:14,030 --> 00:09:16,159 22 years ago is when I got clean. 245 00:09:16,305 --> 00:09:20,305 So I figured that, uh, I figured that the statute of limitations are probably done. 246 00:09:20,705 --> 00:09:20,725 Do 247 00:09:20,725 --> 00:09:22,255 you figure or did you look it up? 248 00:09:22,325 --> 00:09:23,725 It has never crossed my mind. 249 00:09:23,855 --> 00:09:24,845 Not worried about it at all. 250 00:09:24,885 --> 00:09:25,835 You're incredible. 251 00:09:26,985 --> 00:09:29,415 And I don't know that you give yourself enough credit 252 00:09:29,435 --> 00:09:30,774 standing where we're standing. 253 00:09:30,775 --> 00:09:33,554 I know there's so many people that struggle with this to hear your 254 00:09:33,555 --> 00:09:39,085 story is just incredible to hear and to admit what you've been through. 255 00:09:39,085 --> 00:09:43,745 And you right now are minimizing what you've been through and 256 00:09:43,755 --> 00:09:47,864 how hard you've Uh, I'm gonna, 257 00:09:47,865 --> 00:09:50,545 I'm gonna push back a little on that Maggie because here's the thing. 258 00:09:50,555 --> 00:09:53,615 The first time I told my story in public, it was probably five years after I got 259 00:09:53,615 --> 00:09:57,384 clean, which would be probably 2007, the Michigan Dental Association meeting. 260 00:09:57,394 --> 00:09:59,964 It's emotional every time I tell the story, particularly in front of 261 00:09:59,964 --> 00:10:02,354 a group, you know, where I've been talking about addiction, where I 262 00:10:02,354 --> 00:10:03,664 used to talk about addiction a lot. 263 00:10:03,704 --> 00:10:06,155 I really, I really haven't for a while, but and it was emotional and 264 00:10:06,155 --> 00:10:08,285 it was tough and people would ask, I can't believe you're saying this. 265 00:10:08,285 --> 00:10:12,158 I'm like, well, if, if no one says it, if no one is open and honest about the kind 266 00:10:12,158 --> 00:10:15,000 of Crazy stuff that was happening that no one believes that it could happen. 267 00:10:15,079 --> 00:10:17,200 And no one talks about this stuff still to this day. 268 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,530 I always thought that people would start being open and they aren't. 269 00:10:19,569 --> 00:10:22,640 I was on the committee for the Michigan dental association that helped dentists 270 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:23,979 and team members that have addiction. 271 00:10:23,999 --> 00:10:26,859 And there was never a time I would run across these people and they would own it. 272 00:10:26,879 --> 00:10:27,919 Like, I am in trouble. 273 00:10:27,919 --> 00:10:28,339 I need help. 274 00:10:28,339 --> 00:10:28,760 No. 275 00:10:28,895 --> 00:10:30,075 Oh, they constantly push back. 276 00:10:30,095 --> 00:10:32,454 I ended up quitting the committee because I was so tired of people 277 00:10:32,454 --> 00:10:34,555 luring up and running away when we were trying to offer help. 278 00:10:34,595 --> 00:10:35,075 I won't lie to you. 279 00:10:35,075 --> 00:10:37,694 That's, and that's a little dark that I say that it's true. 280 00:10:37,694 --> 00:10:39,855 I mean, the reality is that that's how this works. 281 00:10:39,855 --> 00:10:42,575 You know, addiction is you don't get to pick and choose the parts of addiction. 282 00:10:42,754 --> 00:10:43,694 Addiction takes over. 283 00:10:43,734 --> 00:10:44,314 It really does. 284 00:10:44,314 --> 00:10:45,124 It is what it is. 285 00:10:45,124 --> 00:10:46,084 And that's what it was for me. 286 00:10:46,115 --> 00:10:49,964 Now, 22 plus years later, it's like talking about a different person. 287 00:10:50,234 --> 00:10:51,974 So on some level, when you guys are asking, aren't you 288 00:10:51,974 --> 00:10:52,974 worried about the felonies? 289 00:10:52,974 --> 00:10:53,734 I'm like, nah, I'm fine. 290 00:10:53,755 --> 00:10:55,335 Cause you know, they haven't come for me at this point. 291 00:10:55,515 --> 00:10:59,015 I figured, I figured that they can use me as a terrible warning instead of, 292 00:10:59,055 --> 00:11:00,425 you know, getting my lesson taught. 293 00:11:00,445 --> 00:11:00,925 I mean, we'll see. 294 00:11:00,925 --> 00:11:02,715 I know, I, I think I'm probably pretty safe. 295 00:11:02,745 --> 00:11:02,935 Yeah. 296 00:11:02,935 --> 00:11:03,145 And 297 00:11:03,334 --> 00:11:07,154 that was going to be a series of my questions, which we can't really get to 298 00:11:07,155 --> 00:11:11,315 because as you know, the president of the ADA, Brett Kessler, uh, very bravely 299 00:11:11,315 --> 00:11:13,664 talks about his addiction to alcoholism. 300 00:11:13,665 --> 00:11:16,765 And the question that I have for him, which I haven't been able to have answered 301 00:11:16,785 --> 00:11:20,575 is, I know that when you admit your addiction and I thought that I heard 302 00:11:20,575 --> 00:11:23,734 you, or maybe it was Gary Katie that talked about, you know, when you start. 303 00:11:23,855 --> 00:11:27,825 to talk about your addiction and, and, and, you know, you have to 304 00:11:27,825 --> 00:11:32,325 start proving whether I think it's to whatever regulatory body, they, 305 00:11:32,334 --> 00:11:36,124 they, they come and visit you or do whatever they need to do to make 306 00:11:36,124 --> 00:11:37,614 sure that you can keep your license. 307 00:11:38,244 --> 00:11:42,254 Um, and I, and some of the, some of the, Questions that I wanted to ask you is what 308 00:11:42,264 --> 00:11:46,244 that looked like for you, but it sounds like it never got to that point with you. 309 00:11:46,244 --> 00:11:46,675 Oh, no, no, 310 00:11:46,675 --> 00:11:47,185 it totally did. 311 00:11:47,194 --> 00:11:47,355 Yeah. 312 00:11:47,694 --> 00:11:48,605 Let me fast forward. 313 00:11:48,605 --> 00:11:51,554 So I, I don't have to go into deep, you know, it was a mess. 314 00:11:51,575 --> 00:11:55,045 It was, my life was driven by the needing to get more to use. 315 00:11:55,045 --> 00:11:56,535 That was it for four years or so. 316 00:11:56,974 --> 00:11:57,614 And can I ask you a question? 317 00:11:57,695 --> 00:12:00,115 How much money did you spend on your addiction? 318 00:12:00,345 --> 00:12:01,375 Well, you know what's interesting? 319 00:12:01,435 --> 00:12:04,965 It could have been a lot worse if I was into illicit stuff, because I was buying, 320 00:12:05,015 --> 00:12:07,115 I was buying stuff from supply companies. 321 00:12:07,115 --> 00:12:07,474 So yeah, 322 00:12:07,475 --> 00:12:08,704 under your DA license, right? 323 00:12:09,025 --> 00:12:10,044 So it's not that expensive. 324 00:12:10,044 --> 00:12:10,114 Yeah, 325 00:12:10,115 --> 00:12:11,994 it's, I mean, you're, you're buying, you buy wholesale. 326 00:12:11,995 --> 00:12:12,405 What the heck? 327 00:12:12,445 --> 00:12:15,084 On some level, if you were into cocaine, if you were into illicit 328 00:12:15,084 --> 00:12:17,605 stuff, You're going to be paying a lot more and there's, mind you, you 329 00:12:17,605 --> 00:12:20,655 don't get a DEA number and you're not really allowed to buy it for yourself. 330 00:12:20,655 --> 00:12:23,115 So that's, that's clearly not, not part of the deal either, 331 00:12:23,115 --> 00:12:24,255 but that's what I was doing. 332 00:12:24,305 --> 00:12:28,035 Um, the money was something, but it was more like, it was more just the shoot. 333 00:12:28,035 --> 00:12:30,044 I got married while I was using, I got everything. 334 00:12:30,075 --> 00:12:32,264 Like I bought a practice while I was using, I did everything. 335 00:12:32,329 --> 00:12:35,150 While I was using my entire life was completely affected by it, of course. 336 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,640 But there came a day, interestingly, um, one of my really good buddies, 337 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:39,970 he's an oral surgeon in town. 338 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,760 I went in, I had like a, I had like an ingrown hair, a lipoma on my neck, 339 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:44,819 and I wanted him to take it off. 340 00:12:44,829 --> 00:12:47,190 And part of it was cause I wanted, he was going to sedate me to do it. 341 00:12:47,220 --> 00:12:48,619 And then he'd write me a script. 342 00:12:48,619 --> 00:12:51,920 I would, I would basically have done anything to, uh, to get a script or 343 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,390 whatever it was, it was, it was pretty desperate, but also I had this thing on 344 00:12:54,390 --> 00:12:56,950 my neck and so he did it and he was the first one that figured out what was really 345 00:12:56,950 --> 00:12:58,700 going on cause he tried to sedate me. 346 00:12:58,869 --> 00:13:01,379 And he couldn't because when you, when you have a, when you have a 347 00:13:01,379 --> 00:13:04,859 tolerance, like I did, there's not enough, you know, he, he, he was 348 00:13:04,859 --> 00:13:07,619 going to drop a big bolus of fentanyl on me and like, okay, here it comes. 349 00:13:07,619 --> 00:13:10,520 And I was like, nothing, you know, he realized that there was 350 00:13:11,109 --> 00:13:12,139 something right with me, you know? 351 00:13:12,139 --> 00:13:16,240 So like, whether or not I was just stupid or asking for help, I don't know exactly. 352 00:13:16,259 --> 00:13:18,629 I can't quite remember, but the reality is, is like, he's 353 00:13:18,629 --> 00:13:19,470 the one who figured it out. 354 00:13:19,470 --> 00:13:22,869 And he's the one who kind of twisted my arm and got my family on 355 00:13:22,869 --> 00:13:25,249 board who, who knew something was going on, but didn't realize it. 356 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:26,510 And they got me into treatment. 357 00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:27,550 So they, they came in. 358 00:13:27,550 --> 00:13:29,510 If you've ever seen those shows that are like, um, 359 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:31,380 intervention, intervention, 360 00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:35,440 intervention, my intervention would have made terrible television. 361 00:13:35,580 --> 00:13:38,250 I can say that right now because I was at the office alone. 362 00:13:38,250 --> 00:13:41,699 My team was kind of in on it and they didn't come back after lunch that day. 363 00:13:41,740 --> 00:13:44,420 And so my family and some people came in to intervene. 364 00:13:44,420 --> 00:13:48,010 But in the meantime, I have to tell you, I had been trying to stop in different ways. 365 00:13:48,010 --> 00:13:51,000 Like I, I literally, by that time I had kind of given up trying to 366 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,190 stop, but throughout all this, you're like, this is crazy. 367 00:13:53,210 --> 00:13:53,990 I need to stop doing this. 368 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:55,009 But I couldn't, I didn't. 369 00:13:55,030 --> 00:13:55,249 I couldn't. 370 00:13:56,270 --> 00:13:59,440 And, and mind you, I never thought to try going to a narcotics anonymous meeting. 371 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,030 I never thought to try and go to an AA meeting. 372 00:14:01,030 --> 00:14:03,349 I never thought, I never thought to talk to anyone about it. 373 00:14:03,349 --> 00:14:04,930 I, this was my Was it shame? 374 00:14:04,990 --> 00:14:06,280 Yeah, I wondered the same. 375 00:14:06,340 --> 00:14:08,750 I mean, there's always a lot of shame with it, but I also, 376 00:14:09,070 --> 00:14:10,000 I, I'm not gonna lie to you. 377 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:11,710 I, I wasn't going to talk to anyone about it. 378 00:14:11,710 --> 00:14:13,069 I wasn't going to admit anything to anyone. 379 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,640 To get help, you kind of have to admit a little bit, you know? 380 00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:18,704 But did you, did you, like, were you sure you had a problem or were you scared? 381 00:14:18,704 --> 00:14:19,875 Still at that point was like, yeah, totally. 382 00:14:20,670 --> 00:14:20,869 I was, 383 00:14:21,105 --> 00:14:22,065 yeah, there's no doubt. 384 00:14:22,065 --> 00:14:24,435 I mean, not that I was looking for help, but I knew I had a problem. 385 00:14:24,435 --> 00:14:25,545 I had stopped trying to quit. 386 00:14:25,545 --> 00:14:26,415 That's the scary thing. 387 00:14:26,415 --> 00:14:26,954 So I'd stopped. 388 00:14:27,014 --> 00:14:27,045 Mm. 389 00:14:27,645 --> 00:14:32,234 And with as much as I was using what it took to get me high or what it took to get 390 00:14:32,234 --> 00:14:35,714 me where I wanted to go, the, the amount that I was having to do was probably close 391 00:14:35,714 --> 00:14:37,275 to the, the dose that you'd overdose. 392 00:14:37,305 --> 00:14:39,764 So frankly, I probably overdose or was close to overdose 393 00:14:39,764 --> 00:14:40,694 every time I used at that. 394 00:14:40,754 --> 00:14:41,685 Do you remember how much that was? 395 00:14:41,714 --> 00:14:41,984 Oh, yeah. 396 00:14:42,045 --> 00:14:42,435 Oh yeah. 397 00:14:42,464 --> 00:14:45,795 The last, very last day that I used, I, I didn't really do. 398 00:14:46,180 --> 00:14:47,620 anything where you had to shoot. 399 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:48,380 I didn't know how. 400 00:14:48,380 --> 00:14:49,230 I didn't know how to do IV. 401 00:14:49,250 --> 00:14:50,060 So I took pills. 402 00:14:50,100 --> 00:14:52,780 I took, uh, my regular dose when it came. 403 00:14:52,780 --> 00:14:54,749 And that was the day I was waiting for a delivery. 404 00:14:54,749 --> 00:14:55,510 I got the delivery. 405 00:14:55,539 --> 00:14:58,930 I took 26 Lorset on an empty stomach. 406 00:14:59,070 --> 00:14:59,979 And that was really good. 407 00:15:00,010 --> 00:15:06,730 Now, if you do the math on that, 26 So that's no 15 I'm sorry, 15 10 6 50s. 408 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,840 It's 26 grams of acetaminophen at a time. 409 00:15:10,069 --> 00:15:13,770 26 grams, not milligrams, 26 grams of acetaminophen. 410 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,015 So everyone's liver is sort of frying. 411 00:15:16,015 --> 00:15:16,890 I was just going to say, 412 00:15:16,890 --> 00:15:18,280 RID or organs. 413 00:15:19,030 --> 00:15:22,139 Well, interestingly, the guy that I went into treatment with convinced 414 00:15:22,140 --> 00:15:25,829 that there are some people that can catalyze acetaminophen better than 415 00:15:25,829 --> 00:15:29,434 others because I, I came in and my liver enzymes were slightly elevated. 416 00:15:29,595 --> 00:15:30,645 Slightly elevated. 417 00:15:30,755 --> 00:15:31,194 Slightly elevated. 418 00:15:31,194 --> 00:15:31,665 That was all it was. 419 00:15:31,694 --> 00:15:32,885 Like, can you freaking imagine? 420 00:15:32,885 --> 00:15:33,875 That was a lot of acetaminophen. 421 00:15:33,875 --> 00:15:37,365 But then I was, 150 milligrams of hydrocodone, which is, which is a lot. 422 00:15:37,525 --> 00:15:39,595 That's what it took to get me feeling okay. 423 00:15:39,595 --> 00:15:41,944 You know, that was because I was in withdrawal constantly and all that stuff. 424 00:15:41,964 --> 00:15:43,944 So that's, that's the last time I used, yes. 425 00:15:44,005 --> 00:15:48,125 Well, there was, I wanted to back up one point because there is an underbelly, 426 00:15:48,144 --> 00:15:51,325 like there's a softer side of addiction that I think that people don't address 427 00:15:51,325 --> 00:15:52,075 and what you're sharing with us. 428 00:15:52,460 --> 00:15:55,470 I mean, that is an extreme case to me, meaning it's common, but 429 00:15:55,470 --> 00:15:56,890 it's, you know, a substance. 430 00:15:56,930 --> 00:16:00,060 And there are other forms of addiction that we can pull ourselves 431 00:16:00,060 --> 00:16:01,940 into that happen every single day. 432 00:16:01,949 --> 00:16:05,680 Like I was talking to our co hosts here right before we hit record, 433 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,859 there's shopping, there's smart form use, there's being a workaholic. 434 00:16:08,859 --> 00:16:10,099 So there's things that we do to cope. 435 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,280 And you said something really, really fascinating that I want to go back to. 436 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:17,100 And it was, they will justify, like you will justify to keep using and you 437 00:16:17,100 --> 00:16:21,380 justified and not only did you do that, you knew, you knew you were addicted, 438 00:16:21,380 --> 00:16:25,270 but you kept going on and, and I wanted to go back to it was, it was your, 439 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,170 your friend who got you into treatment. 440 00:16:27,170 --> 00:16:32,339 What was that definitive moment and made you flip and change your behavior 441 00:16:32,340 --> 00:16:36,059 and say, I'm, I will go into treatment because otherwise you're just on that 442 00:16:36,060 --> 00:16:37,839 wheel constantly over and over again. 443 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,929 And some forms of addiction, Alan, can go a lifetime. 444 00:16:40,929 --> 00:16:42,739 It's either going to kill you or you're just going to keep 445 00:16:42,739 --> 00:16:43,929 hurting yourself in other ways. 446 00:16:43,930 --> 00:16:47,960 In some ways being addicted to opiates, first off, no one. 447 00:16:48,125 --> 00:16:51,605 No one does what I was doing and can look someone else in the eye 448 00:16:51,615 --> 00:16:52,755 and go, this is totally normal. 449 00:16:52,755 --> 00:16:53,235 No big deal. 450 00:16:53,965 --> 00:16:57,275 So on some level it was helpful that it was so crazy, right? 451 00:16:57,275 --> 00:17:00,405 Because the reality is, is like, yes, buying stuff that you don't need. 452 00:17:00,405 --> 00:17:02,475 That's it's all pushing the dopamine button. 453 00:17:02,475 --> 00:17:05,154 The question is addiction is actually doesn't even have to do 454 00:17:05,154 --> 00:17:06,644 with the substance or the activity. 455 00:17:06,644 --> 00:17:08,454 Addiction is what is it doing to your life? 456 00:17:08,465 --> 00:17:11,704 So one of the screens that they use is like, you know, What are the 457 00:17:11,714 --> 00:17:13,375 consequences of this in your life? 458 00:17:13,425 --> 00:17:13,785 Okay. 459 00:17:13,785 --> 00:17:16,944 So if you like to shop an awful lot, is it affecting your life? 460 00:17:16,954 --> 00:17:17,865 How's it affecting your life? 461 00:17:17,865 --> 00:17:20,105 Is it, is it, is it making it so you can't pay other bills 462 00:17:20,105 --> 00:17:21,335 or are you're all those things? 463 00:17:21,345 --> 00:17:24,365 Addiction has a lot less to do with what you're doing or, 464 00:17:24,385 --> 00:17:25,595 or the substance you're using. 465 00:17:25,595 --> 00:17:27,794 It has a lot more to do with how it's affecting your life. 466 00:17:27,990 --> 00:17:31,310 And that's, I mean, there were no parts of my life left unaffected. 467 00:17:31,340 --> 00:17:33,990 But the reality is there's plenty of other addictions that, that 468 00:17:33,990 --> 00:17:35,999 could, that could affect your life. 469 00:17:35,999 --> 00:17:37,520 And I, I kind of believe in all of it. 470 00:17:37,530 --> 00:17:38,659 It's all about the same thing. 471 00:17:38,669 --> 00:17:40,819 Cause it all deals with the dopamine. 472 00:17:40,820 --> 00:17:44,019 It all deals with the feel good system, the, the do it again system. 473 00:17:44,020 --> 00:17:46,549 You know, it's all, it's all that, you know, the rush you get from, 474 00:17:46,610 --> 00:17:50,350 um, I mean, the rush you get from buying something new and the package 475 00:17:50,370 --> 00:17:51,310 coming and that sort of thing. 476 00:17:51,310 --> 00:17:52,899 I mean, I, I, I'm familiar with that. 477 00:17:52,909 --> 00:17:53,629 I know that story. 478 00:17:53,919 --> 00:17:53,939 Do 479 00:17:53,949 --> 00:17:56,560 you find yourself in a position that because of this? 480 00:17:56,700 --> 00:18:00,820 particular kind of past, and the way that your brain has been rewired as 481 00:18:00,820 --> 00:18:06,100 a result of this addiction, you are more vulnerable to the possibility of 482 00:18:06,100 --> 00:18:08,689 becoming addicted to something else. 483 00:18:08,740 --> 00:18:09,420 Yes. 484 00:18:09,459 --> 00:18:13,709 And then do you take precautions in your life to protect yourself from that? 485 00:18:13,749 --> 00:18:17,999 Yes, but I, to simplify, I don't use any, any drugs or alcohol. 486 00:18:18,390 --> 00:18:20,560 And I haven't for almost 23 years. 487 00:18:20,620 --> 00:18:21,810 I just don't, I don't do it at all. 488 00:18:21,810 --> 00:18:22,390 I don't try. 489 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,510 I mean, maybe it wouldn't affect me, but I do, I just don't. 490 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,240 So that simplifies a lot of the, the, those kinds of addictions. 491 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,540 And I got to tell you, what's interesting is that a process 492 00:18:30,540 --> 00:18:34,220 addiction, your, your dopamine is getting hit with your own dopamine. 493 00:18:34,279 --> 00:18:35,400 That's your own brain chemical. 494 00:18:35,460 --> 00:18:38,750 The problem with drugs and alcohol is it's actually, you're adding brain chemicals. 495 00:18:38,770 --> 00:18:39,390 You know what I'm saying? 496 00:18:39,390 --> 00:18:42,740 Like it's a little, there's a slight difference between substance addictions 497 00:18:42,740 --> 00:18:45,849 and process addictions because the process addictions, all the chemistry 498 00:18:45,849 --> 00:18:49,579 in your brain is getting stimulated by your own brain chemical versus mine 499 00:18:49,580 --> 00:18:51,419 was getting stimulated by opiates. 500 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:51,979 You know what I'm saying? 501 00:18:52,019 --> 00:18:52,319 Yeah. 502 00:18:52,319 --> 00:18:55,760 So there's a, there's a little difference between the two of them, but process. 503 00:18:56,054 --> 00:18:59,084 If you've talked to anyone who's a serious gambling addict, I mean, 504 00:18:59,125 --> 00:19:02,145 that's, that's like cocaine, like people, they can't stop there. 505 00:19:02,195 --> 00:19:05,745 It's, it's really, and so, but gambling, the, the, the brain 506 00:19:05,745 --> 00:19:07,564 chemistry is all internal. 507 00:19:07,564 --> 00:19:10,854 It's all dopamine, but those people get hooked just as, just as hard as anyone. 508 00:19:10,854 --> 00:19:12,514 So the reality is that all that's real. 509 00:19:12,514 --> 00:19:14,814 And I don't know that I'm not sure that it's important. 510 00:19:15,135 --> 00:19:18,584 The how, you know, one main precaution is I don't drink and I don't use drugs. 511 00:19:18,905 --> 00:19:22,405 Um, that part has been on some level, it's really funny because that 512 00:19:22,405 --> 00:19:23,995 was a lot harder in the beginning. 513 00:19:24,054 --> 00:19:27,155 I'll say this, getting clean, a lot harder than staying clean. 514 00:19:29,060 --> 00:19:32,310 Like, and I'm not gonna say that, that in the beginning it wasn't really 515 00:19:32,310 --> 00:19:35,990 tempting, but there reached a point with me that, and I've asked a lot of, 516 00:19:36,070 --> 00:19:39,810 uh, recovering people this, and some of them, some of them are, struggle with it. 517 00:19:39,860 --> 00:19:43,510 I'm like, okay, if I could use whatever I, whatever, whatever I was into, if 518 00:19:43,510 --> 00:19:47,540 I could use anything and get away with it with no consequences, would I do it? 519 00:19:47,590 --> 00:19:51,310 And, and in other words, like, if you could just avoid all consequences and use 520 00:19:51,310 --> 00:19:52,680 what you wanted, I don't want to anymore. 521 00:19:52,915 --> 00:19:54,315 Doesn't, doesn't really thrill me. 522 00:19:54,315 --> 00:19:57,795 The idea doesn't thrill me because I'm kind of interested in taking life 523 00:19:57,795 --> 00:19:59,165 on life's terms a little bit rather. 524 00:19:59,165 --> 00:20:02,415 I don't, I don't want to change, you know, my, my perceptions are 525 00:20:02,415 --> 00:20:04,125 already not so great as a human being. 526 00:20:04,125 --> 00:20:06,534 I don't need to, I don't need to make it any worse by pouring, 527 00:20:06,574 --> 00:20:07,954 pouring that gasoline on the fire. 528 00:20:07,975 --> 00:20:10,554 And I, and I mean, that's sort of, it took me a while to get there. 529 00:20:10,585 --> 00:20:12,405 I'm not saying that it could never, I wouldn't ever, but I 530 00:20:12,415 --> 00:20:13,715 don't, it's not very hard anymore. 531 00:20:13,715 --> 00:20:14,435 It doesn't, doesn't cry. 532 00:20:14,585 --> 00:20:17,065 And honestly, I'm even around it sometimes. 533 00:20:17,075 --> 00:20:19,375 Like I'm even around people who are drinking, I don't like to be around 534 00:20:19,375 --> 00:20:22,014 people who are drinking, but I don't have to not be around them because it 535 00:20:22,015 --> 00:20:24,270 just doesn't, It just doesn't really do anything to me anymore that way. 536 00:20:24,500 --> 00:20:24,690 But 537 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,250 you found yourself in a position where somebody was holding, you 538 00:20:28,250 --> 00:20:31,040 know, Vicoprofen in front of you. 539 00:20:31,460 --> 00:20:33,790 And, and this is the matrix scenario. 540 00:20:33,830 --> 00:20:35,710 Your wife and kids are not around. 541 00:20:35,769 --> 00:20:39,690 Alcohol is alcohol, but, you know, as an addict of, of an opioid, that, 542 00:20:39,700 --> 00:20:41,399 that is what we're presenting to you. 543 00:20:41,510 --> 00:20:42,289 I'll, I'll get here. 544 00:20:42,290 --> 00:20:43,210 Let me give you a scenario. 545 00:20:43,260 --> 00:20:46,820 I have a friend who's an addict and she's been clean for 12 years. 546 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,390 Now all of a sudden, And she goes to Mexico and in the hotel lobby, 547 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,390 they're selling the, the drug that she's addicted to, which is Valium. 548 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:53,790 Okay. 549 00:20:53,820 --> 00:20:58,940 And her husband's not with her and, um, she's 12 years clean 550 00:20:58,959 --> 00:21:00,240 and she doesn't need the Valium. 551 00:21:00,270 --> 00:21:01,880 But now she's like, well, you know what? 552 00:21:01,890 --> 00:21:04,490 Maybe one day, I mean, I've had some nights that I can't 553 00:21:04,490 --> 00:21:05,819 sleep when I'm traveling. 554 00:21:05,859 --> 00:21:09,050 It'd be, it sure would be nice just to have a little bit of Valium. 555 00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:10,170 And she's tempted. 556 00:21:10,330 --> 00:21:11,880 Um, does that happen? 557 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:13,925 What would you What would you do? 558 00:21:13,935 --> 00:21:15,355 Like, how tempted would that be? 559 00:21:15,355 --> 00:21:18,845 Would you, would you be affected by that if you were in Mexico and they 560 00:21:18,845 --> 00:21:20,875 were, and they were selling narco? 561 00:21:20,925 --> 00:21:22,415 Yeah, they probably are, by the way. 562 00:21:22,415 --> 00:21:24,784 I, 563 00:21:24,785 --> 00:21:29,405 I will say this, I still count my clean time every year on 10th of January. 564 00:21:29,455 --> 00:21:32,145 I go out on Facebook and I say another year, 23 years will be 565 00:21:32,155 --> 00:21:34,395 this coming, this coming January, you know, I still count it. 566 00:21:34,425 --> 00:21:37,645 So the reality is I've, I've got too much riding on it to 567 00:21:37,655 --> 00:21:38,865 do something stupid like that. 568 00:21:39,110 --> 00:21:41,650 I guess if I didn't take it that seriously, if I didn't, if I didn't think 569 00:21:41,650 --> 00:21:44,020 it would be that big of a deal, maybe, but it just doesn't appeal to me at all. 570 00:21:44,050 --> 00:21:47,000 And I mean, I've been in situations where I could have, okay, so I 571 00:21:47,010 --> 00:21:48,700 got hit by a truck on my bike. 572 00:21:48,740 --> 00:21:49,529 Oh, yeah. 573 00:21:49,780 --> 00:21:49,930 Oh, you 574 00:21:50,150 --> 00:21:51,800 literally did get hit by a truck. 575 00:21:52,049 --> 00:21:52,770 It's not a metaphor. 576 00:21:52,790 --> 00:21:52,889 I 577 00:21:52,889 --> 00:21:56,909 got, I got hit by a pickup truck on my bike and I broke my back in two places. 578 00:21:57,299 --> 00:21:58,980 Now, that sounds worse than it actually was. 579 00:21:58,980 --> 00:22:00,030 I walked away from it. 580 00:22:00,030 --> 00:22:02,950 And I mean, like, we only found out that I broke my back from the MRI. 581 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,390 But, uh, I had to wear a brace. 582 00:22:04,390 --> 00:22:05,389 I didn't have to do surgery. 583 00:22:05,389 --> 00:22:06,120 I had to wear a brace. 584 00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:07,979 But like, so I was in there and I. 585 00:22:08,095 --> 00:22:12,335 Um, it hurt, you can imagine, uh, and they offered me medication. 586 00:22:12,465 --> 00:22:13,165 I didn't take it. 587 00:22:13,165 --> 00:22:15,405 I'm like, you know, I I'm doing okay with this. 588 00:22:15,435 --> 00:22:17,865 I mean, you know, and it, it sucked, but it wasn't that bad. 589 00:22:17,915 --> 00:22:21,364 And, and I'm like, I really don't even, cause the concern is I'm 590 00:22:21,375 --> 00:22:22,774 sitting in a hospital room all alone. 591 00:22:22,774 --> 00:22:25,374 This is right during the pandemic too, by the way, which is an absolute trip. 592 00:22:25,414 --> 00:22:26,825 You know, hospital, it's like a horror movie. 593 00:22:26,825 --> 00:22:27,575 There's no one there. 594 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:28,859 It's just, the place is empty. 595 00:22:28,860 --> 00:22:31,140 I'm in a hospital bed and I'm not allowed to get up because 596 00:22:31,140 --> 00:22:32,300 the neurosurgeon hasn't come. 597 00:22:32,530 --> 00:22:33,510 So I have to stay in the bed. 598 00:22:33,540 --> 00:22:37,230 So all I got is me in a bed and I have the opportunity to take this 599 00:22:37,230 --> 00:22:40,319 stuff and I didn't do it because I'm like, you know, it's not, I'm going to 600 00:22:40,319 --> 00:22:41,710 look back and be glad that I didn't. 601 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:43,229 Now, if it But they offered 602 00:22:43,229 --> 00:22:45,150 this to you knowing that you were an addict? 603 00:22:45,179 --> 00:22:45,529 Yeah, 604 00:22:45,570 --> 00:22:45,859 yeah. 605 00:22:45,859 --> 00:22:47,080 But I mean, here's the thing. 606 00:22:47,100 --> 00:22:48,550 It's not their responsibility, Maggie. 607 00:22:48,550 --> 00:22:49,290 It's my responsibility. 608 00:22:49,550 --> 00:22:52,220 There's no one, no one's gonna, no one's gonna call the cops on me if I, if I 609 00:22:52,260 --> 00:22:53,720 take a Norco because I got my back. 610 00:22:53,910 --> 00:22:54,010 No, 611 00:22:54,010 --> 00:22:54,470 they're not. 612 00:22:54,470 --> 00:22:58,030 But then you become a walking liability if they, if you take the Norco and 613 00:22:58,030 --> 00:23:01,249 then you're back in addiction and then you can sue them for becoming 614 00:23:01,249 --> 00:23:03,779 an ad, for, well, I don't know if you want to call it an active ad. 615 00:23:03,959 --> 00:23:03,989 Well, 616 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:05,120 no, I mean, I, yeah. 617 00:23:05,150 --> 00:23:07,039 Okay, well, in today's litigious 618 00:23:07,049 --> 00:23:07,999 society. 619 00:23:08,010 --> 00:23:08,030 Yeah, 620 00:23:08,340 --> 00:23:09,450 I don't, I don't live that way. 621 00:23:09,460 --> 00:23:11,160 I can't live that way, to be honest. 622 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:12,280 Well, you don't, you, 623 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,790 you don't, but there's plenty of people that would. 624 00:23:14,945 --> 00:23:16,945 I know, and they have worse lives for it. 625 00:23:16,955 --> 00:23:17,975 I'm going to tell you that right now. 626 00:23:18,075 --> 00:23:18,615 They really do. 627 00:23:18,615 --> 00:23:19,595 And that's a whole other story. 628 00:23:19,595 --> 00:23:22,415 But, but I mean, like the whole idea of I'm waiting for someone to sue me is 629 00:23:22,415 --> 00:23:23,944 a really bad spot to be, but I get it. 630 00:23:23,944 --> 00:23:24,835 I know a lot of people like that. 631 00:23:24,875 --> 00:23:27,355 I didn't take it and it didn't, it ended up working out. 632 00:23:27,355 --> 00:23:27,625 Okay. 633 00:23:27,625 --> 00:23:28,745 I'm pretty glad that I didn't. 634 00:23:28,795 --> 00:23:29,065 Right. 635 00:23:29,085 --> 00:23:31,734 And I don't, I have to say I work with a sponsor. 636 00:23:31,735 --> 00:23:34,575 I have a lot of 12 step background and all that stuff. 637 00:23:34,575 --> 00:23:37,025 And so if I had decided I was really going to, I would have 638 00:23:37,045 --> 00:23:38,015 talked to my sponsor about it. 639 00:23:38,015 --> 00:23:40,635 I would have made sure that if it would have been an accountability thing, whether 640 00:23:40,635 --> 00:23:43,574 that's, I'm going to just take it in the hospital and I won't take it out. 641 00:23:43,625 --> 00:23:44,785 Cause the other thing is, is, you know, it'd been. 642 00:23:44,805 --> 00:23:52,235 I mean, I was pretty serious about it, and I mean, obviously people 643 00:23:52,245 --> 00:23:53,945 need to take pain medications enough. 644 00:23:53,955 --> 00:23:56,085 There's legitimate reasons to take pain medication. 645 00:23:56,095 --> 00:23:58,594 That probably would have even been one, except I was like, ah, I think 646 00:23:58,595 --> 00:24:00,005 I'm okay, and I did fine without it. 647 00:24:00,064 --> 00:24:03,040 But the reality is, though, like, Yeah, it becomes, and I 648 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,830 remember when I was in treatment, that's all we ever talked about. 649 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,930 Oh man, what happens if we are in a situation when it could, because of 650 00:24:08,930 --> 00:24:11,649 course we, at the time you're like, man, I hope I'm in a situation like that, 651 00:24:11,649 --> 00:24:15,680 so I can try to, you know, and, and you come to realize like, nah, not really, 652 00:24:15,790 --> 00:24:16,569 nah, you don't really want to do that. 653 00:24:16,569 --> 00:24:19,469 And I will say this too, something else, Maggie, the few times when I, 654 00:24:19,479 --> 00:24:23,530 when I have like a using dream or if I have a really bad day and I'm like, 655 00:24:23,540 --> 00:24:26,680 you know, man, it'd be pretty good to have some of this, you know what it is. 656 00:24:26,850 --> 00:24:29,010 It's a beer that I want because that was, that's where I 657 00:24:29,010 --> 00:24:30,380 started in dental school, man. 658 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:34,840 As a beer, a beer could change the way my day went in dental school. 659 00:24:34,910 --> 00:24:37,760 Now, mind you, yes, of course, all the opiates could do that too. 660 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,700 But for whatever reason, that's where my brain goes now, even 661 00:24:40,700 --> 00:24:42,089 though that opiates were my problem. 662 00:24:42,089 --> 00:24:45,440 So the reality is I'm kind of unsafe at any speed with that stuff. 663 00:24:45,450 --> 00:24:47,740 So I just don't, I, I, I try none of it. 664 00:24:47,770 --> 00:24:49,650 And that keeps me, keeps me pretty sane. 665 00:24:49,670 --> 00:24:51,230 Can we talk about treatment? 666 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,080 And here's some context around that. 667 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,820 I think addiction is far more prevalent than we give it credit. 668 00:24:55,820 --> 00:24:56,529 I think kids. 669 00:24:56,700 --> 00:24:59,230 far more prevalent than we track scientifically. 670 00:24:59,250 --> 00:25:02,530 I think alcoholism and drug addiction, those things get 671 00:25:02,540 --> 00:25:04,600 the biggest um, attention. 672 00:25:04,639 --> 00:25:07,930 But you know, since all of us are in dentistry, we all know there are a lot 673 00:25:07,930 --> 00:25:10,040 of life coaching opportunities out there. 674 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,399 There's, there's constant bring balance to your life over and over again. 675 00:25:13,399 --> 00:25:16,729 And I'd like to go underneath the surface because you can hire a life 676 00:25:16,729 --> 00:25:19,324 coach to help you bring more balance into your life so that you stay healthy. 677 00:25:19,495 --> 00:25:21,475 more time at home and you're not as much in the office. 678 00:25:21,475 --> 00:25:24,275 There's, there's practical ways you can apply that, but not if you are 679 00:25:24,315 --> 00:25:26,725 addicted, if you are addicted to work. 680 00:25:26,825 --> 00:25:30,655 So if you are getting your dopamine hits because of the value you see, that's 681 00:25:30,665 --> 00:25:34,264 presented to you when you are working, it's not going to solve the problem. 682 00:25:34,305 --> 00:25:37,074 So you're going to waste thousands of dollars trying to figure out different 683 00:25:37,075 --> 00:25:38,455 frameworks and you're applying them. 684 00:25:38,455 --> 00:25:42,015 But if the addiction is there and it's untreated, I hear treatment facilities. 685 00:25:42,025 --> 00:25:44,025 I don't know, personally, I haven't Googled it. 686 00:25:44,055 --> 00:25:45,665 I don't know if there's treatment facilities. 687 00:25:45,665 --> 00:25:49,235 If you have a spending problem, a gambling, probably gambling. 688 00:25:49,325 --> 00:25:52,655 But shopping, smartphone use, and you can't get off the 689 00:25:52,655 --> 00:25:54,105 phone, those types of things. 690 00:25:54,105 --> 00:25:55,825 I don't know that there's treatment for that. 691 00:25:55,835 --> 00:25:59,755 So could you be our eyes and ears and walk us through how treatment 692 00:25:59,765 --> 00:26:02,735 helped you rewire your brain? 693 00:26:02,745 --> 00:26:06,524 Like what things did you have to put in place to get to the point today 694 00:26:06,524 --> 00:26:09,885 where you can say, I'm fictitiously in Mexico, this drugs presented to 695 00:26:09,895 --> 00:26:13,065 me and I can say I'm too stupid and I can walk away because that's a very, 696 00:26:13,425 --> 00:26:15,545 um, it's awesome that you can do that. 697 00:26:15,565 --> 00:26:17,564 I don't know that people are that strong, especially if they 698 00:26:17,575 --> 00:26:18,724 haven't gone through treatment. 699 00:26:18,735 --> 00:26:19,324 Well, it's interesting. 700 00:26:19,575 --> 00:26:23,015 Okay, so I went to a place, it was called West Michigan Addiction Consultants, 701 00:26:23,015 --> 00:26:26,175 it's based on a model, the Talbot model, which is actually in Atlanta, 702 00:26:26,175 --> 00:26:29,965 and it's, it's, it's very specific, it's quite specific to healthcare providers. 703 00:26:29,975 --> 00:26:33,594 So I was in treatment with, there was like one other dentist there when I was there. 704 00:26:33,634 --> 00:26:37,465 It was a whole bunch of anesthesiologists and nurses, as you can imagine, 705 00:26:37,645 --> 00:26:40,020 because they Keys to the candy store, if you know what I'm saying. 706 00:26:40,620 --> 00:26:43,760 Um, there's, there were some surgeons, there were some, a lot of physicians, 707 00:26:43,790 --> 00:26:46,280 different types of physicians, but a ton of more anesthesiologists. 708 00:26:46,310 --> 00:26:49,800 I would argue that dentists, dentists are particularly susceptible to drug 709 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,399 addictions because we don't have much supervision and we have, we have You 710 00:26:53,399 --> 00:26:53,804 think so? 711 00:26:53,905 --> 00:26:54,245 Still? 712 00:26:54,285 --> 00:26:54,555 Yeah. 713 00:26:54,605 --> 00:26:54,835 Oh yeah. 714 00:26:54,835 --> 00:26:57,605 I mean, like, no, I'm saying still most dentists work alone. 715 00:26:57,615 --> 00:27:00,775 What I'm talking, I'm talking like human, you know, you're the boss and, you 716 00:27:00,775 --> 00:27:03,725 know, my, my team didn't feel like they could, you know, call the cops on me. 717 00:27:03,725 --> 00:27:05,005 I was writing a paychecks, right? 718 00:27:05,005 --> 00:27:07,335 Like that's, that was, I was, you know, I was the, the sole. 719 00:27:07,335 --> 00:27:07,374 But I 720 00:27:07,535 --> 00:27:12,495 think ordering drugs is far more difficult now and so is writing scripts. 721 00:27:13,025 --> 00:27:14,245 It probably is. 722 00:27:14,285 --> 00:27:14,635 I don't know. 723 00:27:14,635 --> 00:27:15,875 I haven't tried, so I don't know. 724 00:27:16,375 --> 00:27:19,315 I mean, you wouldn't have, you wouldn't have expected it to be as easy as it was. 725 00:27:19,365 --> 00:27:21,044 I will say that at the time. 726 00:27:21,044 --> 00:27:24,414 I I'm in like, for instance, most people don't realize that you have to 727 00:27:24,415 --> 00:27:27,195 have a federal drug control license and probably a state drug control license 728 00:27:27,195 --> 00:27:30,295 to have controlled substances on your, on your property and you handle, you 729 00:27:30,295 --> 00:27:33,415 have to, if you're dispensing, not administering, but dispensing, you 730 00:27:33,415 --> 00:27:34,925 have to dispense like a pharmacist. 731 00:27:35,060 --> 00:27:36,760 You know, you have to dispense like a pharmacy. 732 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:37,640 There's a lot of rules to it. 733 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,010 Not that, but no one's checking. 734 00:27:39,060 --> 00:27:41,350 I'm telling you back then they weren't, maybe they are now. 735 00:27:41,350 --> 00:27:41,880 I don't know though. 736 00:27:41,890 --> 00:27:45,390 There's a lot, there's, there's, we are still not very well. 737 00:27:45,699 --> 00:27:49,109 Um, I don't think dental offices are sort of, they don't have the 738 00:27:49,109 --> 00:27:52,209 same kind of administration as hospital and medical situations. 739 00:27:52,210 --> 00:27:53,050 There's no doubt about that. 740 00:27:53,050 --> 00:27:55,940 And, and mostly the dentists that might be in trouble are the ones 741 00:27:55,940 --> 00:27:57,140 that are doing the administration. 742 00:27:57,150 --> 00:27:58,310 And that could be different now. 743 00:27:58,310 --> 00:27:59,670 That's what definitely that is with me. 744 00:27:59,750 --> 00:28:01,260 Uh, they're probably not going to audit. 745 00:28:01,385 --> 00:28:06,255 your chart audits until you're being audited for something, you know, but 746 00:28:06,325 --> 00:28:08,115 until then it's honor system is what 747 00:28:08,115 --> 00:28:09,364 I remember. 748 00:28:09,364 --> 00:28:13,825 There was a time that, that maybe when this was happening to you, Alan, that 749 00:28:13,835 --> 00:28:18,064 there would be people coming to my office that were like many pharmacies 750 00:28:18,065 --> 00:28:21,164 that were like, okay, here's a cabinet that we're going to sell you 751 00:28:21,164 --> 00:28:23,584 with a little lock and please buy. 752 00:28:23,750 --> 00:28:31,230 Um, Codine and Vicodin and, uh, Acetaminophen and, um, Antibiotics. 753 00:28:31,260 --> 00:28:32,470 And please stock them. 754 00:28:32,470 --> 00:28:33,690 And here's a bunch of stickers. 755 00:28:33,690 --> 00:28:34,700 And here's a book. 756 00:28:35,129 --> 00:28:35,159 And 757 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,110 they were actually, they were actually telling you how to do it like a pharmacy. 758 00:28:38,110 --> 00:28:38,559 It sounds like, 759 00:28:39,190 --> 00:28:44,570 but they really wanted us to dispense that at 20 to the patient. 760 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:45,090 Oh jeez. 761 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,420 Um, you know, per bottle and whatever and the patients didn't want to, didn't 762 00:28:49,420 --> 00:28:52,580 want to do that because they were getting it free with their insurance from the 763 00:28:52,610 --> 00:28:56,850 pharmacy so then like two years later you're stuck with all these drugs. 764 00:28:56,910 --> 00:28:57,450 We were. 765 00:28:57,460 --> 00:28:57,500 That's 766 00:28:57,699 --> 00:28:58,239 great. 767 00:28:58,880 --> 00:28:59,310 Right. 768 00:28:59,939 --> 00:29:02,165 I mean, I mean, I, I never ran into that. 769 00:29:02,165 --> 00:29:04,354 Thank God, honestly, but I never ran into that. 770 00:29:04,354 --> 00:29:06,895 But I also was not someone who was following all the rules 771 00:29:06,945 --> 00:29:09,145 on clearly on, on that stuff. 772 00:29:09,145 --> 00:29:13,604 So I, I, what I would say is that dentists are probably susceptible for the fact 773 00:29:13,604 --> 00:29:14,954 that a lot of us still work alone. 774 00:29:15,024 --> 00:29:17,504 A lot of, we have a lot of access if we want it, if we choose to. 775 00:29:17,504 --> 00:29:19,264 And that's the other thing, most dentists don't choose to. 776 00:29:19,264 --> 00:29:22,615 So probably one of the reasons they don't audit so hard is because dentists probably 777 00:29:22,675 --> 00:29:24,314 for the most part, don't do this stuff. 778 00:29:24,314 --> 00:29:27,564 But, but the ones that do can get away with it because, I mean, I don't know. 779 00:29:27,675 --> 00:29:28,075 I did. 780 00:29:28,095 --> 00:29:28,415 I don't know. 781 00:29:28,545 --> 00:29:31,085 And again, that's 22 years ago, so I don't know how it is now. 782 00:29:31,085 --> 00:29:34,255 I'd like to think that it's a lot, a lot harder to do what I was doing. 783 00:29:34,325 --> 00:29:36,515 Uh, and the other thing is, is that there's a lot more 784 00:29:36,515 --> 00:29:37,775 illicit stuff out there. 785 00:29:37,835 --> 00:29:41,314 Like, thank God I, I wasn't, you know, in trouble at the time that 786 00:29:41,315 --> 00:29:42,534 fentanyl was all over the place. 787 00:29:42,534 --> 00:29:44,535 Apparently it's easier to get fentanyl than it isn't, 788 00:29:44,565 --> 00:29:45,844 you know, it's, I don't know. 789 00:29:45,844 --> 00:29:47,385 So it's, so stuff changes, but. 790 00:29:47,514 --> 00:29:51,575 As far as treatment, I, I went into, uh, this place, it was a 791 00:29:51,575 --> 00:29:52,925 lot of healthcare professionals. 792 00:29:52,975 --> 00:29:55,725 If I was in treatment for four and a half months, my dad covered 793 00:29:55,725 --> 00:29:56,834 my office while I was gone. 794 00:29:56,834 --> 00:29:59,225 I was in, I wasn't in treatment part time, I was full time. 795 00:29:59,225 --> 00:30:01,874 So I was gone from my office for essentially four and a half months. 796 00:30:01,874 --> 00:30:04,605 That's another reason people are not willing to do treatment because, you know, 797 00:30:04,605 --> 00:30:06,679 their livelihood doesn't stand up to it. 798 00:30:06,820 --> 00:30:09,740 And I will tell you what, uh, when they lawyer up, when a guy, when a 799 00:30:09,740 --> 00:30:12,600 guy gets confronted with the fact that he, you know, he drinks too much 800 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,540 in the office or he, or he's gotten in trouble with drugs, the lawyers 801 00:30:15,540 --> 00:30:16,110 are like, what are you going to do? 802 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,130 You're going to make it so this guy, he can't, he can't possibly 803 00:30:18,130 --> 00:30:18,940 go to treatment this long. 804 00:30:19,100 --> 00:30:19,829 He'll never make it. 805 00:30:19,859 --> 00:30:22,260 I mean, his office will go under and there's a lot to that. 806 00:30:22,325 --> 00:30:22,955 There's a lot to that. 807 00:30:23,005 --> 00:30:26,195 But so I was there, we did, um, two therapy sessions. 808 00:30:26,235 --> 00:30:27,195 Like it was group therapy. 809 00:30:27,195 --> 00:30:30,045 It was everyone, we went to a 12 step meeting every day. 810 00:30:30,055 --> 00:30:33,255 And I lived in a community situation where we lived in apartments, 811 00:30:33,265 --> 00:30:35,624 four people in an apartment and it was other people in treatment. 812 00:30:35,665 --> 00:30:38,575 So we were kind of, the community was kind of therapeutic on its own. 813 00:30:38,604 --> 00:30:40,944 Cause you got to know these people and you were trying to all do this. 814 00:30:41,255 --> 00:30:41,765 together. 815 00:30:41,935 --> 00:30:44,365 And frankly, not everyone was in it for the right reasons. 816 00:30:44,365 --> 00:30:46,345 And not everyone was, you know, I'm saying it's sort of a, it was 817 00:30:46,345 --> 00:30:47,555 a bit of a mess, but I was there. 818 00:30:48,085 --> 00:30:48,865 What does that mean? 819 00:30:49,135 --> 00:30:50,405 Does that mean they were forced in? 820 00:30:50,405 --> 00:30:51,064 They had no choice? 821 00:30:51,115 --> 00:30:51,454 A lot. 822 00:30:51,455 --> 00:30:51,655 Yeah. 823 00:30:51,665 --> 00:30:52,895 Most of them were forced in. 824 00:30:52,995 --> 00:30:54,845 Most of the, most of them were in trouble for something. 825 00:30:55,214 --> 00:30:57,504 When you go into treatment, your, your ass is on fire and 826 00:30:57,504 --> 00:30:58,235 you're trying to put it out. 827 00:30:58,285 --> 00:31:00,095 That's what's happening in a lot of cases. 828 00:31:00,125 --> 00:31:01,264 Some people might find that. 829 00:31:01,425 --> 00:31:05,005 Unfair, but the reality is, it doesn't matter how you got there. 830 00:31:05,095 --> 00:31:08,045 Um, a lot of times you'll go to an AA meeting and they're like, it 831 00:31:08,535 --> 00:31:09,625 doesn't matter how you got there. 832 00:31:09,694 --> 00:31:11,734 If you stick around long enough, it's going to start 833 00:31:11,734 --> 00:31:12,954 sticking to you a little bit. 834 00:31:12,965 --> 00:31:14,374 So I was there for four and a half months. 835 00:31:14,395 --> 00:31:17,165 I also, the day that I went in, this is really funny. 836 00:31:17,175 --> 00:31:18,624 It's, it's funny to me now. 837 00:31:19,294 --> 00:31:19,964 It's funny at the time. 838 00:31:19,984 --> 00:31:20,814 We better laugh. 839 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:21,660 The guy, right? 840 00:31:21,660 --> 00:31:22,420 We're laughing now. 841 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,785 , the guy who was running the place handed me the phone and, uh, dialed 842 00:31:26,785 --> 00:31:30,235 the number of the Michigan HPRP, the Health Professionals Recovery Program. 843 00:31:30,385 --> 00:31:32,845 And, uh, I admitted to them what I was doing. 844 00:31:32,845 --> 00:31:34,915 So I was on contract the day I walked in. 845 00:31:35,005 --> 00:31:37,885 I'll tell you, I didn't know who I was talking to, and you were, you're supposed 846 00:31:37,885 --> 00:31:39,715 to self, you're supposed to self-report. 847 00:31:39,745 --> 00:31:42,625 I did self-report on his phone when he handed it to me and I 848 00:31:42,625 --> 00:31:43,585 didn't know what was going on. 849 00:31:43,585 --> 00:31:46,255 So I self-reported and I was so, I was gonna be on contract. 850 00:31:46,255 --> 00:31:48,055 So I was on contract for three years. 851 00:31:48,145 --> 00:31:48,685 Uh, a lot of, 852 00:31:49,255 --> 00:31:49,380 what does that mean on contract? 853 00:31:49,385 --> 00:31:50,696 I was gonna say, I have no idea what that means. 854 00:31:51,105 --> 00:31:52,535 Okay, so this is very typical. 855 00:31:52,545 --> 00:31:54,605 Most states have some kind of a program like this. 856 00:31:54,615 --> 00:31:57,945 It's a diversion program where when I'm done with treatment, I'm on a contract. 857 00:31:58,005 --> 00:32:02,244 So each, I would, I, when I started on contract, I had to call every 858 00:32:02,244 --> 00:32:05,335 weekday morning to see if I was going to do a random drug screen. 859 00:32:05,374 --> 00:32:07,405 I had to, I had to, uh, did you 860 00:32:07,405 --> 00:32:08,674 say every day? 861 00:32:08,674 --> 00:32:09,624 Every, every, every 862 00:32:09,625 --> 00:32:11,164 Monday through Friday. 863 00:32:11,164 --> 00:32:11,354 Yeah. 864 00:32:11,404 --> 00:32:15,174 Um, so, and, and I mean, you know, you, you screened a lot. 865 00:32:15,175 --> 00:32:18,425 You screen probably, I mean, in the beginning, it was usually at least 866 00:32:18,425 --> 00:32:19,455 once a week, but it was random. 867 00:32:19,455 --> 00:32:20,725 So you didn't know when you were going to screen. 868 00:32:21,195 --> 00:32:22,125 I got a great story with that. 869 00:32:22,135 --> 00:32:23,745 I'd had drug screens in treatment. 870 00:32:23,794 --> 00:32:24,425 They do that. 871 00:32:24,504 --> 00:32:27,934 Uh, but the very first time I went in for a drug screening, I, I found 872 00:32:27,934 --> 00:32:28,885 the place where I needed to go. 873 00:32:28,885 --> 00:32:32,615 I was, I was motivated and I'm like, I don't want this to, I figured if I 874 00:32:32,615 --> 00:32:36,445 went to work knowing I had to screen and I didn't know when I was going to 875 00:32:36,445 --> 00:32:38,190 get my be able to get away to screen. 876 00:32:38,190 --> 00:32:39,650 It was going to drive me crazy all day. 877 00:32:39,650 --> 00:32:42,060 So I wanted to get there first thing before work started. 878 00:32:42,070 --> 00:32:44,700 So I would call, I think five o'clock in the morning was when 879 00:32:44,710 --> 00:32:47,410 you'd find out your number, if your number was up, you had to screen. 880 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,430 And so if I screen, I get right up, take a quick shower. 881 00:32:49,430 --> 00:32:51,690 And I both over there, cause I think that I think they opened 882 00:32:51,690 --> 00:32:53,049 at six or six 30 or whatever. 883 00:32:53,049 --> 00:32:54,560 So I made sure I was the first person in line. 884 00:32:54,590 --> 00:32:58,500 So I didn't have to get it done so I could go on without my day, without 885 00:32:58,500 --> 00:33:00,580 worrying about whether or not I was going to get there, uh, the very first 886 00:33:00,580 --> 00:33:03,870 day I went in there, I was the first person in there, the person that called 887 00:33:03,870 --> 00:33:06,120 me to collect my specimen was a patient. 888 00:33:06,340 --> 00:33:07,120 You can imagine that. 889 00:33:07,150 --> 00:33:08,670 So that was, uh, Fancy 890 00:33:08,670 --> 00:33:09,510 meeting you here. 891 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:09,930 Yeah. 892 00:33:09,930 --> 00:33:12,010 In recovery, humility is given to you. 893 00:33:12,050 --> 00:33:13,010 You don't have to ask. 894 00:33:13,130 --> 00:33:13,920 It comes for you. 895 00:33:13,950 --> 00:33:15,640 That was a humiliating experience. 896 00:33:15,670 --> 00:33:18,239 But, but honestly, I look back and like, well, you know, Hey, it was one 897 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:19,349 of the things that helped keep me clean. 898 00:33:19,349 --> 00:33:20,200 So it worked, you know? 899 00:33:20,250 --> 00:33:20,740 Right. 900 00:33:21,810 --> 00:33:23,659 I kind of wear it on my sleeve now. 901 00:33:23,689 --> 00:33:26,610 It's not a secret to anyone anymore, but, and, and I, it's better 902 00:33:26,610 --> 00:33:27,629 that way as far as I'm concerned. 903 00:33:27,629 --> 00:33:30,909 But so I was, you had to drug screen, you had to, there was a, there were 904 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,549 group therapy sessions once a week, it was Tuesdays after work I'd go in. 905 00:33:34,549 --> 00:33:36,760 It was a bunch of local people that were healthcare professions that 906 00:33:36,799 --> 00:33:38,199 do a, do a group therapy session. 907 00:33:38,209 --> 00:33:39,980 You do at least three meetings a day. 908 00:33:40,039 --> 00:33:41,000 I did more than that. 909 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,180 I was a meetings guy for, For years and years. 910 00:33:43,180 --> 00:33:43,260 For 911 00:33:43,270 --> 00:33:44,930 the four and a half months you do the meetings three 912 00:33:44,930 --> 00:33:45,850 times a day or is this after? 913 00:33:46,140 --> 00:33:46,450 The four 914 00:33:46,450 --> 00:33:48,220 and a half months I was in treatment you did a meeting every day. 915 00:33:48,290 --> 00:33:48,800 That was part of it. 916 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:49,050 Yeah, okay. 917 00:33:49,490 --> 00:33:52,240 And you have a card and you have to have it signed and that sounds a little 918 00:33:52,250 --> 00:33:56,950 silly but there's a lot of mockery that goes around in, in long term recovering 919 00:33:56,950 --> 00:33:59,819 groups where the, the kids come in and they gotta have their card signed. 920 00:33:59,819 --> 00:34:01,370 I was that guy for three years. 921 00:34:01,410 --> 00:34:03,300 I was leading Narcotics Anonymous meetings. 922 00:34:03,300 --> 00:34:04,640 I still had to have my card signed. 923 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:05,220 It was kind of funny. 924 00:34:05,220 --> 00:34:08,500 So, in any case, so they, there's a lot, basically they, they, give you 925 00:34:08,500 --> 00:34:11,770 all these things, you have to go to an addiction specialist every three months 926 00:34:11,770 --> 00:34:15,730 to make sure and I I was on Naltrexone, which is a medication that it's it's 927 00:34:15,730 --> 00:34:17,880 like a basically an opiate agonist. 928 00:34:17,930 --> 00:34:22,939 So supposedly, if you used an opiate, it wouldn't work, you know, wouldn't 929 00:34:22,949 --> 00:34:26,555 it wouldn't it basically blocked the mu receptors that You know, that started 930 00:34:26,555 --> 00:34:27,955 the fireworks when you had the opiate. 931 00:34:27,985 --> 00:34:30,355 So, so, and so I took that again, I took that for years. 932 00:34:30,355 --> 00:34:33,355 My wife would witness me taking it and sign my card and all that stuff. 933 00:34:33,355 --> 00:34:35,235 So there's a lot of accountability they build into it. 934 00:34:35,275 --> 00:34:37,784 Can I ask you, when you went through withdrawal, yeah, 935 00:34:37,835 --> 00:34:38,524 does that hurt? 936 00:34:38,634 --> 00:34:39,215 That was terrible. 937 00:34:39,224 --> 00:34:42,034 I mean, but here's the thing you look at it, you know, if you've ever seen the 938 00:34:42,044 --> 00:34:45,625 basketball, basketball diaries, you see a Leonardo DiCaprio going through horrible 939 00:34:45,654 --> 00:34:46,735 opiate withdrawal, blah, blah, blah. 940 00:34:46,835 --> 00:34:47,324 It sucks. 941 00:34:47,324 --> 00:34:47,745 It's terrible. 942 00:34:47,745 --> 00:34:48,665 It feels like you have the flu. 943 00:34:48,715 --> 00:34:50,985 I was in, I was in withdrawal constantly. 944 00:34:51,545 --> 00:34:54,284 I used up my stuff so fast that I was in withdrawal. 945 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:55,550 As much as I was using. 946 00:34:55,550 --> 00:34:57,920 So I walked around with a runny nose and feeling terrible. 947 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,630 And, you know, you know, the sweats and, you know, body aches 948 00:35:00,630 --> 00:35:01,890 and stuff like that constantly. 949 00:35:01,930 --> 00:35:05,900 It's, you know, it sucks, but it's also like, you know, I, and actually 950 00:35:05,949 --> 00:35:09,970 I probably, so opiates tend to, if you've ever been on an opiate, it 951 00:35:09,970 --> 00:35:11,949 makes your GI slow down a little bit. 952 00:35:12,310 --> 00:35:13,569 It caused constipation. 953 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,819 If you use it like I was using, you were normal when you were using. 954 00:35:16,850 --> 00:35:18,590 So when you didn't have it, it was the other way. 955 00:35:18,590 --> 00:35:21,319 It was like, I had diarrhea for months at a time because 956 00:35:21,319 --> 00:35:22,990 my GI system was all messed up. 957 00:35:22,990 --> 00:35:25,710 And I've heard other people that used as much as I did say the same thing. 958 00:35:25,710 --> 00:35:27,590 So, I mean, like, yeah, your body's all messed up from 959 00:35:27,590 --> 00:35:29,129 this stuff, but did it hurt? 960 00:35:29,139 --> 00:35:29,429 Yeah. 961 00:35:29,430 --> 00:35:32,069 Was it the most regular thing that happened to me at any time? 962 00:35:32,130 --> 00:35:32,970 Absolutely. 963 00:35:33,010 --> 00:35:33,760 It was constant. 964 00:35:33,810 --> 00:35:36,890 So for me, I know that it's very dramatic to, Oh, lots of people say, 965 00:35:36,890 --> 00:35:38,899 I don't want to get clean because then I'll have to go through withdrawal. 966 00:35:38,899 --> 00:35:40,560 I'm like, dude, I'm going through withdrawal all the time. 967 00:35:40,580 --> 00:35:41,200 It sucks. 968 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:41,769 It's terrible. 969 00:35:42,010 --> 00:35:44,279 But I mean, like, it's also, that's what these things do to you. 970 00:35:44,380 --> 00:35:46,290 And, yeah, so you just kind of gut through it. 971 00:35:46,300 --> 00:35:48,510 There's ways to make it better, but, uh, I didn't. 972 00:35:48,569 --> 00:35:50,040 I, I just, it sucked for a while. 973 00:35:50,109 --> 00:35:52,229 You know, it was, I, I was pretty serious. 974 00:35:52,229 --> 00:35:53,790 When I got to treatment, I'll tell you this. 975 00:35:53,830 --> 00:35:56,319 I had not been honest with anyone about what I was doing. 976 00:35:56,330 --> 00:35:58,189 Well, when they dragged me off to treatment, everyone knew 977 00:35:58,189 --> 00:35:59,549 what I was, what was going on. 978 00:35:59,559 --> 00:36:02,609 For the first time, people realized what I had been doing for all this time. 979 00:36:02,609 --> 00:36:03,770 And it was kind of freeing. 980 00:36:03,990 --> 00:36:06,500 You're like, okay, I'm going to take advantage of this and, and 981 00:36:06,510 --> 00:36:08,120 stop, you know, and it wasn't easy. 982 00:36:08,140 --> 00:36:10,990 There were times when it was a little scary, times when I was thinking about 983 00:36:11,019 --> 00:36:12,240 screwing up, but I really didn't. 984 00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:12,750 I never did. 985 00:36:12,750 --> 00:36:14,590 Once I started treatment, I never relapsed. 986 00:36:14,670 --> 00:36:16,670 So it's like I've never been back to it. 987 00:36:16,700 --> 00:36:18,779 And I mean, I'm not going to say it's easy, but that's, 988 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,229 that's the program that I ran. 989 00:36:20,229 --> 00:36:21,779 And it was, and it worked really well for me. 990 00:36:21,780 --> 00:36:25,359 The treatment center was awesome because When you get to take four 991 00:36:25,359 --> 00:36:28,899 months and just work on yourself, my poor office, my dad and my team, they 992 00:36:28,899 --> 00:36:30,260 had no idea what's going on with me. 993 00:36:30,319 --> 00:36:31,679 They didn't even know if I was going to come back. 994 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:32,729 And I didn't want to talk about it. 995 00:36:32,740 --> 00:36:34,929 And the people in treatment, they didn't want me to talk about it 996 00:36:34,929 --> 00:36:36,919 because they wanted me to focus on my recovery all the time. 997 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,179 So it was like, it was a little crazy. 998 00:36:38,179 --> 00:36:40,329 My poor dad still, still to this day is like, man, you know, you'd 999 00:36:40,330 --> 00:36:41,449 never talk about the office. 1000 00:36:41,449 --> 00:36:42,009 She never talked about it. 1001 00:36:42,009 --> 00:36:43,309 I didn't know if you're gonna come back and be a dentist. 1002 00:36:43,359 --> 00:36:44,069 I didn't even know. 1003 00:36:44,099 --> 00:36:47,790 And I didn't, I feel bad, but I didn't, you know, at the time, you don't get 1004 00:36:47,790 --> 00:36:51,450 to focus on yourself like that for four months at a time on anything. 1005 00:36:51,500 --> 00:36:52,969 And so I think that helped a lot. 1006 00:36:53,135 --> 00:36:55,234 It helped a lot to kind of build that lifestyle. 1007 00:36:55,295 --> 00:36:58,764 Did your patients know and then do your patients know? 1008 00:36:58,814 --> 00:37:02,154 Lots of my patients know because I put it up on Facebook every year that 1009 00:37:02,154 --> 00:37:05,334 I've got another year, but at the time I was told this really sucks 1010 00:37:05,334 --> 00:37:07,654 too because, uh, you know, it's supposed to be an honest program. 1011 00:37:07,885 --> 00:37:10,574 If anyone that's going into treatment, patients just need to 1012 00:37:10,574 --> 00:37:11,675 know you're on a medical leave. 1013 00:37:11,675 --> 00:37:12,825 They don't need to know any more than that. 1014 00:37:12,835 --> 00:37:15,995 My patients thought I had a back problem, which ironically, 18 years 1015 00:37:15,995 --> 00:37:18,545 later, I technically had a back problem after getting hit by a 1016 00:37:18,545 --> 00:37:21,144 truck, but they thought I had a back problem and I was gone for that. 1017 00:37:21,255 --> 00:37:22,615 I wouldn't have chosen that. 1018 00:37:22,625 --> 00:37:26,335 And interestingly, someone from the Michigan committee that I was later 1019 00:37:26,335 --> 00:37:29,225 on and later the chairperson of said, just say it's a back problem because 1020 00:37:29,234 --> 00:37:30,335 that could be that you could be gone. 1021 00:37:30,345 --> 00:37:31,785 You could be out that long for a back prop. 1022 00:37:31,814 --> 00:37:34,885 But the reality is, is like, it's not really your patient's business. 1023 00:37:34,934 --> 00:37:38,475 But on the other hand, I've had no regrets in talking about it with my patients. 1024 00:37:38,525 --> 00:37:41,785 It's a really odd marketing choice because I have a ton of 1025 00:37:41,785 --> 00:37:44,444 recovering people that come to me because they know I'm in recovery. 1026 00:37:44,555 --> 00:37:48,144 So it's an interesting choice, but, and I, like I said, transparency 1027 00:37:48,145 --> 00:37:49,705 has worked really well for me. 1028 00:37:49,785 --> 00:37:51,165 So that's, that's been my choice. 1029 00:37:51,185 --> 00:37:52,585 And I know that's really scary. 1030 00:37:52,634 --> 00:37:55,075 And I know most recovering people don't feel okay about that. 1031 00:37:55,085 --> 00:37:57,325 But I can say this, I have no regrets. 1032 00:37:57,335 --> 00:38:00,444 I've never once been the guy that said, Oh, I wish I hadn't said that. 1033 00:38:00,455 --> 00:38:02,295 So I, I, it's worked out pretty good for me. 1034 00:38:02,385 --> 00:38:06,915 On the topic of transparency, I'm really curious if you're open to sharing what 1035 00:38:06,984 --> 00:38:11,184 relief underneath everything made you pull that trigger and choose yourself. 1036 00:38:11,194 --> 00:38:14,254 What was the motivator for you that said, I'm going to change 1037 00:38:14,295 --> 00:38:16,604 the way I'm doing things and I'm going to give treatment a try. 1038 00:38:16,654 --> 00:38:18,304 I had never been offered treatment. 1039 00:38:18,344 --> 00:38:20,805 The intervention, I just said, okay, I mean, let's go. 1040 00:38:20,904 --> 00:38:21,255 That was it. 1041 00:38:21,380 --> 00:38:24,170 You know, like, just the fact that people knew what I was doing after 1042 00:38:24,170 --> 00:38:25,410 all that time was pretty much it. 1043 00:38:25,590 --> 00:38:27,590 It's, it's much less dramatic than Was it 1044 00:38:27,590 --> 00:38:27,859 like a 1045 00:38:27,859 --> 00:38:30,890 five minute conversation, just like They came in, they came in 1046 00:38:30,890 --> 00:38:32,830 and they said that, you know, they, they said, we're here to help. 1047 00:38:32,830 --> 00:38:33,819 We can, I'm like, let's do it. 1048 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:34,370 You know, let's go. 1049 00:38:34,370 --> 00:38:36,459 I, I said, I've been, I've tried so many times on my own. 1050 00:38:36,460 --> 00:38:37,170 I couldn't do it. 1051 00:38:37,189 --> 00:38:39,079 So, you know, and it was not, it was not glorious. 1052 00:38:39,079 --> 00:38:40,809 It was not, it sounds like it was easy. 1053 00:38:40,809 --> 00:38:43,450 It wasn't easy, but I was like, I didn't have a lot of other choices. 1054 00:38:43,460 --> 00:38:43,830 So 1055 00:38:43,870 --> 00:38:45,550 But you did, but you did have a choice. 1056 00:38:45,745 --> 00:38:49,394 So you were forced into the intervention and you were like, okay, let's do it. 1057 00:38:49,394 --> 00:38:50,644 I get that piece, but you're there. 1058 00:38:50,644 --> 00:38:52,484 You still have to make a choice to show up. 1059 00:38:52,505 --> 00:38:55,064 You still have to make a choice to go through treatment. 1060 00:38:55,075 --> 00:38:57,784 So there was something there that made you say, okay, now I'm here. 1061 00:38:57,805 --> 00:38:58,635 I'm going to do it. 1062 00:38:58,694 --> 00:39:00,654 I'm a people pleaser and I'm a striver. 1063 00:39:00,724 --> 00:39:03,104 And what's really funny to say this, I'm a rule follower. 1064 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,040 Which is bizarre, because I obviously wasn't following any rules then, 1065 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:07,310 but technically I'm a rule follower. 1066 00:39:07,330 --> 00:39:08,870 You give me a rule, and I'll follow it. 1067 00:39:08,890 --> 00:39:10,069 I'll follow it better than anyone. 1068 00:39:10,190 --> 00:39:10,850 But you almost 1069 00:39:10,910 --> 00:39:12,940 wanted back into the boundaries. 1070 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:13,300 Yeah. 1071 00:39:13,300 --> 00:39:15,929 Like you had gone out of boundaries, and you wanted back in. 1072 00:39:15,929 --> 00:39:16,129 It was a 1073 00:39:16,129 --> 00:39:18,800 lot of structure, and I did really well with it. 1074 00:39:18,839 --> 00:39:20,900 Now I gotta tell you, a lot of the people I was in treatment 1075 00:39:20,940 --> 00:39:22,310 with fought it like crazy. 1076 00:39:22,319 --> 00:39:22,689 Yeah. 1077 00:39:22,739 --> 00:39:25,760 And what's really funny is that was one more reason for me not to. 1078 00:39:25,835 --> 00:39:28,564 Because it was like, you know, there's an easy way and there's a hard way. 1079 00:39:28,564 --> 00:39:29,745 I think I'll take the easy way. 1080 00:39:29,795 --> 00:39:32,245 So I kind of did my, the guy that ran the treatment center 1081 00:39:32,245 --> 00:39:33,465 couldn't fricking believe me. 1082 00:39:33,484 --> 00:39:34,675 He, he still couldn't believe me. 1083 00:39:34,675 --> 00:39:38,404 So I, when they had a coin out ceremony, which is, which is when you leave the 1084 00:39:38,404 --> 00:39:41,144 treatment center, they have this big, the whole treatment center gets together 1085 00:39:41,144 --> 00:39:44,585 and they, they, they send a coin around, everyone wishes you well and all that 1086 00:39:44,585 --> 00:39:47,455 stuff, and it got back to him and he said, you know, I don't know what to do with 1087 00:39:47,455 --> 00:39:48,835 you because you hit the ground running. 1088 00:39:48,944 --> 00:39:50,744 He said, he'd never seen anything like that. 1089 00:39:50,895 --> 00:39:51,375 Hmm. 1090 00:39:51,525 --> 00:39:57,075 Did you, uh, did you transfer your dopamine hits to, uh, another source? 1091 00:39:57,075 --> 00:40:01,215 So I've heard with alcoholism they might move their addiction to exercise, so 1092 00:40:01,215 --> 00:40:03,795 they might move it to something that would be considered a healthy addiction. 1093 00:40:03,795 --> 00:40:04,904 Did that happen for you? 1094 00:40:05,385 --> 00:40:07,154 Yeah, there's a lot of things over the years that it's done. 1095 00:40:07,154 --> 00:40:08,625 I do a lot of exercise now. 1096 00:40:08,775 --> 00:40:09,819 I, uh, I have a lot of bikes. 1097 00:40:11,890 --> 00:40:14,840 Would you consider it like an addiction, like a transfer of addiction, or 1098 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:16,720 would you consider it like you're in a healthy balance with it? 1099 00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:16,859 At 1100 00:40:16,890 --> 00:40:16,930 times. 1101 00:40:16,930 --> 00:40:17,289 At times. 1102 00:40:17,290 --> 00:40:18,859 Podcasting has been the same thing. 1103 00:40:18,899 --> 00:40:22,599 Oh, I've heard that so many times, Alan, how cycling is, like with 1104 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:24,000 my triathlon buddies and stuff. 1105 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:25,569 They're just like, have you ever heard like this? 1106 00:40:25,569 --> 00:40:28,250 The Lance Armstrong, you know, every cyclist is trying 1107 00:40:28,250 --> 00:40:30,470 to ride away from something, 1108 00:40:30,510 --> 00:40:34,239 but more than that, every cyclist is looking for their next bike to like, 1109 00:40:34,249 --> 00:40:36,050 like cycling, cycling hits a lot. 1110 00:40:36,050 --> 00:40:37,279 It checks a lot of the boxes. 1111 00:40:37,279 --> 00:40:38,590 Cause there's a lot of gadgets you can buy. 1112 00:40:38,590 --> 00:40:40,569 There's always another fancier bike you can buy. 1113 00:40:40,569 --> 00:40:43,229 It's like envy of someone else's exactly. 1114 00:40:43,229 --> 00:40:43,420 Exactly. 1115 00:40:43,420 --> 00:40:45,619 I mean, it's, it's, it's kind of wild that pretty colors. 1116 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,120 Even before, and podcasting is the same way, you know, it's like, I have more 1117 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,760 recording equipment than any four people, you know, for no good reason mind. 1118 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,040 You don't need that much recording equipment for the longest time. 1119 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:57,929 It was, I was really into the technical side of the podcasting and not, not so 1120 00:40:57,929 --> 00:41:00,889 much anymore, but I think the cycling is probably, if I have an addiction 1121 00:41:00,889 --> 00:41:04,660 that I'm, I'm kind of giving into, it's probably that, but even before the 1122 00:41:04,660 --> 00:41:08,570 podcasting, I, for a while, I got into baking, not a great thing for a diabetic. 1123 00:41:08,620 --> 00:41:10,710 But here we are, and I love baking. 1124 00:41:11,870 --> 00:41:12,900 I was baking bread. 1125 00:41:12,900 --> 00:41:15,210 I was baking these beautiful, like artisan loaves. 1126 00:41:15,330 --> 00:41:16,950 I would like, think about it during the day. 1127 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:17,359 It was crazy. 1128 00:41:17,359 --> 00:41:21,589 It was just like the, like, I'm trying to plan my dental practice day about, 1129 00:41:21,589 --> 00:41:23,660 okay, so it's going to rise for this long. 1130 00:41:23,660 --> 00:41:24,539 It's going to be a slow rise. 1131 00:41:24,549 --> 00:41:25,329 It'll be ready to go. 1132 00:41:25,329 --> 00:41:28,449 And like, I'm trying to cook during the week or trying to bake during the week. 1133 00:41:28,450 --> 00:41:30,010 And so they're just waiting for the weekend because I 1134 00:41:30,010 --> 00:41:30,890 was, I was obsessed with it. 1135 00:41:30,890 --> 00:41:31,740 So I still have that. 1136 00:41:31,815 --> 00:41:32,955 I still know I can do that. 1137 00:41:32,965 --> 00:41:35,035 Probably cycling is the thing that does it the most. 1138 00:41:35,065 --> 00:41:36,605 And I buy a lot of gadgets on my bikes. 1139 00:41:36,625 --> 00:41:39,725 There's never enough time to ride as much as I would like to, like I would like 1140 00:41:39,725 --> 00:41:42,654 to ride, I'd probably ride twice a day every day if I could with kids and stuff. 1141 00:41:42,654 --> 00:41:44,015 I just don't, I'm not able to do it. 1142 00:41:44,055 --> 00:41:47,654 But yeah, I think my mind is a little bit like that. 1143 00:41:47,685 --> 00:41:51,175 And I will say that I've, I've had some ease on that since then. 1144 00:41:51,285 --> 00:41:54,435 Like it's not as bad now as it used to be, but there's times. 1145 00:41:54,585 --> 00:41:55,215 There's times. 1146 00:41:55,265 --> 00:41:55,785 So, you know, 1147 00:41:55,835 --> 00:41:58,915 I do have a question, which is a strange question to ask, but is 1148 00:41:58,915 --> 00:42:02,595 there any part of this journey that you feel you are grateful for 1149 00:42:02,985 --> 00:42:03,455 all of it? 1150 00:42:03,575 --> 00:42:07,245 People don't understand how someone can say this, but I'm grateful that I 1151 00:42:07,245 --> 00:42:08,844 am an addict because here's the thing. 1152 00:42:08,904 --> 00:42:12,634 I could realize that what was going on with me had a label and 1153 00:42:12,635 --> 00:42:13,994 had something I could do about it. 1154 00:42:14,015 --> 00:42:15,475 And I was 30 when I got clean. 1155 00:42:15,485 --> 00:42:17,285 I mean, I was able, I was relatively young. 1156 00:42:17,285 --> 00:42:18,485 I was able to do something about it. 1157 00:42:18,515 --> 00:42:20,805 So I'm wildly grateful that it was addiction. 1158 00:42:21,014 --> 00:42:23,394 I mean, I'm wildly grateful that it was something that was 1159 00:42:23,404 --> 00:42:25,184 treatable and that I chose to treat. 1160 00:42:25,194 --> 00:42:28,085 And frankly, it's a lot easier to deal with it now than it was then. 1161 00:42:28,274 --> 00:42:31,274 So gratitude is basically the core of my life. 1162 00:42:31,404 --> 00:42:32,654 I'm grateful for a lot of things. 1163 00:42:32,665 --> 00:42:34,995 And that's one of the reasons I can, I can kind of like walk around and 1164 00:42:34,995 --> 00:42:38,325 not worry about the litigious society we're in or walk about, you know, I, 1165 00:42:38,514 --> 00:42:42,745 social media is a complete show and it's, and it's self administered poison. 1166 00:42:42,915 --> 00:42:46,585 I do it more than I should, but I also am able to not soak that much in. 1167 00:42:46,675 --> 00:42:48,575 I don't take it as personally as a lot of people, honestly. 1168 00:42:48,575 --> 00:42:49,824 This 1169 00:42:49,825 --> 00:42:53,415 particular, uh, episode or in this particular part of the podcast 1170 00:42:53,434 --> 00:42:57,675 has to do with opening up the eyes of our listeners to the more 1171 00:42:57,675 --> 00:42:59,764 challenging parts of our lives. 1172 00:42:59,795 --> 00:43:06,144 And you are an example of what is possible in the most difficult 1173 00:43:06,194 --> 00:43:10,184 and the most challenging and the darkest parts of our lives. 1174 00:43:10,304 --> 00:43:15,335 And you just having expressed something, I don't know, I don't want 1175 00:43:15,425 --> 00:43:16,609 to call it bizarre, but it's true. 1176 00:43:16,609 --> 00:43:21,580 But I think some people might, to me, it's just so beautiful that out of the 1177 00:43:21,710 --> 00:43:27,249 truly darkest rock bottom places that would make you take away your will to 1178 00:43:27,249 --> 00:43:33,649 live out of that depth of darkness could come purpose and passion and gratitude 1179 00:43:33,739 --> 00:43:39,939 could give someone that might be on the brink of not wanting to take another 1180 00:43:39,939 --> 00:43:45,899 step in their life, an opportunity, perhaps gain hope in taking that step. 1181 00:43:45,899 --> 00:43:46,809 that next step. 1182 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,990 And I sincerely mean it when I tell you that you don't give yourself enough 1183 00:43:50,990 --> 00:43:56,590 credit and not just how far you've come, but quite possibly at the hope that you 1184 00:43:56,590 --> 00:44:01,809 are bringing to the audience of this particular podcast and quite possibly 1185 00:44:01,809 --> 00:44:06,139 to the audiences of your podcast, but maybe even to your patients and the 1186 00:44:06,149 --> 00:44:09,760 people that you come in contact with and into the people that you are honest. 1187 00:44:09,995 --> 00:44:14,554 With about your transformation and, and, and the ability that you've had and the 1188 00:44:14,564 --> 00:44:18,615 hard work that you've put into overcoming your addiction because people die every 1189 00:44:18,615 --> 00:44:21,104 single day, not being able to overcome it. 1190 00:44:21,114 --> 00:44:23,664 And maybe the reason why they can't overcome it is 1191 00:44:23,664 --> 00:44:24,915 because they have lost hope. 1192 00:44:24,965 --> 00:44:25,304 Yeah. 1193 00:44:25,410 --> 00:44:28,730 I mean, probably I tend to not take myself very seriously. 1194 00:44:28,770 --> 00:44:32,880 And I think that goes, well, I think it goes a long ways to do that. 1195 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,100 I mean, like on some level it's like, do I do it? 1196 00:44:35,129 --> 00:44:36,259 Cause I, I hope it helps. 1197 00:44:36,259 --> 00:44:36,639 Sure. 1198 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,819 But I also think that it takes away a lot of the power and the scariness, 1199 00:44:40,839 --> 00:44:43,809 if you're just freaking open sunshine is the strongest disinfectant. 1200 00:44:43,850 --> 00:44:46,700 Being open about it is like I said, I've got no regrets and that it helps. 1201 00:44:46,700 --> 00:44:49,980 I think I don't, I haven't found that other people are okay with that. 1202 00:44:50,029 --> 00:44:53,069 I I'd love to see more people talk about like Brett and I are the 1203 00:44:53,069 --> 00:44:54,439 only two that I know of really. 1204 00:44:54,455 --> 00:44:56,194 Dug in like that publicly. 1205 00:44:56,255 --> 00:44:57,395 And I, and you mentioned Brett. 1206 00:44:57,395 --> 00:45:00,575 I mean, I, I've known Brett for years and we've, we've done a lot of work 1207 00:45:00,575 --> 00:45:03,425 together in different places and it's always had to do with addiction. 1208 00:45:03,425 --> 00:45:05,645 So it's kind of being open about, it's important, but I 1209 00:45:05,645 --> 00:45:06,995 also am like, I good to do it. 1210 00:45:06,995 --> 00:45:09,755 And I always forget that not everyone has hurt all this stuff 1211 00:45:09,755 --> 00:45:11,045 'cause it's just my life, you know? 1212 00:45:11,045 --> 00:45:12,904 Just, it's just what, what I've experienced. 1213 00:45:12,904 --> 00:45:15,605 So I forget that it's not, I probably should talk about it more because it's, 1214 00:45:15,605 --> 00:45:18,845 it, it's just a commonplace in my life, but you kind of, you kind of forget that 1215 00:45:18,845 --> 00:45:20,135 it's not commonplace in everyone's life. 1216 00:45:20,194 --> 00:45:23,015 Alan, thank you so much for opening up yourself, uh, your 1217 00:45:23,015 --> 00:45:24,180 heart, your story, bringing in. 1218 00:45:24,555 --> 00:45:26,315 your humor as well as is great. 1219 00:45:26,345 --> 00:45:29,755 Um, this has been a very powerful episode and I think it's, it's going 1220 00:45:29,755 --> 00:45:31,135 to open up a lot of people's eyes. 1221 00:45:31,185 --> 00:45:33,785 If people want to hear more of you, they're, they're enticed. 1222 00:45:33,835 --> 00:45:34,794 Where can people find you? 1223 00:45:34,904 --> 00:45:37,994 I do three episodes a week on the Very Dental Podcast Network. 1224 00:45:38,014 --> 00:45:39,435 Um, not all of them are me. 1225 00:45:39,435 --> 00:45:41,374 We have, we have a group of people that do it, but I've been 1226 00:45:41,375 --> 00:45:43,115 doing the podcast years now. 1227 00:45:43,125 --> 00:45:45,194 It started out as the Dental Hacks Podcast and now it's 1228 00:45:45,194 --> 00:45:46,315 called the Very Dental Podcast. 1229 00:45:46,335 --> 00:45:47,325 So I'm on that a lot. 1230 00:45:47,345 --> 00:45:50,505 We have a Very Dental Facebook group and I'm on Facebook quite often. 1231 00:45:50,565 --> 00:45:52,495 I also have an easy to remember email. 1232 00:45:52,514 --> 00:45:55,455 My email is Simple, but not easy at gmail. 1233 00:45:55,484 --> 00:45:55,774 com. 1234 00:45:55,885 --> 00:45:58,415 It's one of these things where, um, I mean, if there's people who 1235 00:45:58,435 --> 00:46:01,305 are actually having trouble with addiction, email me, cause I can help. 1236 00:46:01,305 --> 00:46:02,535 I mean, I've got resources. 1237 00:46:02,535 --> 00:46:03,125 I can talk about it. 1238 00:46:03,125 --> 00:46:07,054 It's, it's, uh, I get a lot of people hearing these, you forget how 1239 00:46:07,065 --> 00:46:09,855 commonplace it is, but it doesn't have to be because it doesn't have to be. 1240 00:46:09,855 --> 00:46:12,835 I say that because it's like literally not something I, I would 1241 00:46:12,835 --> 00:46:14,795 have never believed it, but I don't really even think about it. 1242 00:46:14,795 --> 00:46:16,124 It's not even, I don't really, it's. 1243 00:46:16,165 --> 00:46:18,484 Not something that, that affects me the same way that it used to. 1244 00:46:18,675 --> 00:46:19,335 I know it's there. 1245 00:46:19,335 --> 00:46:21,675 I know it's important, but I also realized, you know, after a while, 1246 00:46:21,675 --> 00:46:23,035 it doesn't rule your life, you know? 1247 00:46:23,085 --> 00:46:23,974 Well, thank you, Alan. 1248 00:46:24,344 --> 00:46:25,874 Uh, this has been a powerful episode. 1249 00:46:25,875 --> 00:46:26,755 Thank you, Maggie. 1250 00:46:26,764 --> 00:46:27,654 Thank you, Chad. 1251 00:46:27,804 --> 00:46:28,125 Thank you. 1252 00:46:28,125 --> 00:46:29,535 Let's go out and keep making great impacts. 1253 00:46:29,764 --> 00:46:30,425 Thanks Doc. 1254 00:46:30,535 --> 00:46:30,764 Yep. 1255 00:46:30,904 --> 00:46:31,255 You bet. 1256 00:46:31,285 --> 00:46:31,665 Thank you. 1257 00:46:32,734 --> 00:46:35,704 Thank you for listening to another episode of Everyday Practices podcast. 1258 00:46:36,104 --> 00:46:37,934 It would mean the world if you can help support us. 1259 00:46:37,935 --> 00:46:41,475 Spread the word by sharing this episode with a fellow dentist and 1260 00:46:41,485 --> 00:46:43,845 leave us a review on iTunes or Spotify. 1261 00:46:43,924 --> 00:46:48,145 Do you have an extraordinary story you'd like to share or feedback on how we can 1262 00:46:48,145 --> 00:46:50,125 make this podcast even more awesome? 1263 00:46:50,555 --> 00:46:53,184 Drop us an email at podcast at productive dentist. 1264 00:46:53,415 --> 00:46:56,825 com and don't forget to check out our other podcasts from productive 1265 00:46:56,825 --> 00:46:58,585 dentist academy at productive dentist. 1266 00:46:58,805 --> 00:46:59,975 com slash podcasts. 1267 00:46:59,975 --> 00:47:01,285 See you next week.