Kayla: Hey, Chris.
Chris: Hey, Kayla.
Kayla: Question for you.
Chris: Yes.
Kayla: What do you think happens when you Google, is Starbucks a cult?
Chris: Are we not doing any banter at all? Cause we just got feedback from a fan.
Kayla: What was the feedback from a fan? If you want to do banter, you can do it here. But I already introduced the topic.
Chris: This particular fan said that he only cares about the banter and he doesn't care about the content at all. It's just the banter.
Kayla: So we're tailoring our show to one individual fan.
Chris: Yes, we are good that way. We take everybody's input seriously.
Kayla: What do you wanna talk about?
Chris: I don't have anything. I don't know.
Kayla: Do you wanna talk about what happens when you Google is Starbucks?
Chris: Oh, that's a good idea. Yeah. I have to imagine that there's probably, I mean, like, there's a lot of Starbucks hate. Some of it legitimate, some of it more like, oh, there's a Starbucks in every corner. Some of it. Cause they union bust and all that. Plus, I don't know, anytime something is that ubiquitous of a thing in your culture, I feel like people are gonna.
Kayla: Call it a cult.
Chris: They're at least, I don't know where.
Kayla: Are we going to criticize this?
Chris: Yeah, they're gonna criticize it for sure.
Kayla: We're not going anywhere yet. Literally. What do you think happens when you google this? Well, I can tell you what happens. You get interesting returns, honestly, like going back to the nineties. Like people have been writing, answering this question or positing this question, like the nineties. Yeah, you get returns. Like, Starbucks is a cult from r Starbucksbaristas. How Howard Schultz created a personality cult at Starbucks.
Chris: Oh, that makes sense.
Kayla: From politico. Barista Beware. Starbucks is a cult from Glassdoor. Starbucks is a cult. From letsrun.com. Is Starbucks a cult? From the Daily Caller. Starbucks is a cult that pays dollar nine an hour from tech insider and more.
Chris: I wouldnt cite the Daily Caller.
Kayla: I just wanted to show that Im not citing this, any of these as.
Chris: You wanted to see, as both thought.
Kayla: I'm not citing any of these as evidence. I'm simply citing that people have asked this question from all spheres of life for a long time.
Chris: I see. Okay. But here's the thing, though. We have this criteria. Is it niche? Starbucks is like the least niche thing I can possibly think of. Like, aside from maybe McDonald's, it's pretty ubiquitous.
Kayla: It's pretty mainstream culture.
Chris: That kind of puts a bullet in the whole thing right there, doesn't it?
Kayla: It just makes it a religion.
Chris: Oh, right, right.
Kayla: It just makes it a religion, which we will get to that. So there's a lot of thought already given to this space of whether or not Starbucks is a cult. But clearly, I wanted to talk about Starbucks on the show.
Chris: What prompted you? We don't even go to Starbucks.
Kayla: Excuse you? We go to Starbucks fairly often.
Chris: Well, sometimes when we want, like a, you know, milkshake.
Kayla: My niece goes to Starbucks every Wednesday and gets herself a little cake pop. I mean, she doesn't get it herself. She's three, but she gets a little cake pop.
Chris: Just walks right in.
Kayla: Just walks in, says one. KP drives up. I don't know. It's just. It's ubiquitous. Like we said, it's a corporate powerhouse. It's a cultural touchstone. It's been in the news a lot throughout the years.
Chris: It definitely fits into your corporate culture episode.
Kayla: Yeah. And I've always figured that there's more to the story under the surface in any big company. There's something that IBM songbook just made me go, oh, okay. Companies are fucking weird.
Chris: Venti, full of stuff.
Kayla: Get out of here.
Chris: Under the surface.
Kayla: Before I settled on this as a topic, I thought to myself, okay, if you and I are gonna talk about Starbucks on culture, just weird. What do I have to add to the conversation? People are already talking about whether or not it's the cult. What more can be said about the cult connections that hasn't been explored by all sides, daily Caller and politico alike?
Chris: Well, I don't know.
Kayla: A little while back.
Chris: Wait, you actually have something new to add to?
Kayla: I think so.
Tyler Keeling: Starbucks conference.
Kayla: Starbucks. I think we do.
Chris: Dope.
Kayla: A little while back, we did a poll on our Patreon asking our listeners what kinds of topics they'd like us to explore this season, this slightly lighter, helper focused, can we build some positivity in season? And a majority of people who answered were eager to hear about workers rights movements. That was actually the one that had the most like, oh, yes, I want to hear about this.
Chris: Interesting.
Kayla: And wouldn't you know it, Starbucks stores across the country are currently in the process of unionizing in a highly publicized way, as you mentioned, up top. Yes. Starbucks has engaged in a lot of union busting. It's at the forefront right now, and unions are one of the cornerstones of workers rights and labor rights movements. And unions are kind of re entering the mainstream conversation these days because it's. It's not just Starbucks. It's also like Amazon in the news, Apple stores, Trader Joe's, and many other kind of big name places.
Chris: The wokest of corporations busting the shit out of unions get shit on you jerks. Bad people.
Kayla: Hey, Chris.
Chris: Hey, Kayla.
Kayla: Got another question for you.
Chris: Okay.
Kayla: Guess what happens when you google our unions? Cults.
Chris: Oh, yeah. Well, I don't know, like the location of Jimmy Hoffa's corpse. I don't know.
Kayla: Yeah. You get some similar returns. You get. I worked at a labor union. My bosses ran it like a cult from Mother Jones. You get. Do unions sometimes behave like cults from. In these times, anyone ever feel like the IBEW, which is a trade union, seems like a cult in some aspects from Reddit and from quora? Are trade unions like hippie cults?
Chris: I mean, like any other organization? I imagine there's, you know, you can be prone to some of the cult like things that other organizations we've explored on the show have themselves been prone to.
Kayla: So that's why I think that this is a perfect topic for us. There is a lot to untangle, a lot to uncover, a lot of questions about cults and Starbucks and unions. And I thought the best way for us to get the full story on the effort to unionize Starbucks stores by Starbucks workers United would be to talk to the people with their actual boots on the ground.
Chris: Well, like Starbucks union people, we're gonna talk to them.
Kayla: Today we have an interview with Josie Serrano and Tyler Keeling, two Starbucks workers who have been at the forefront of the Starbucks unionizing efforts here in Los Angeles.
Chris: Oh, my God. They wanted to talk to us.
Kayla: Yeah. That's so cool.
Chris: It's funny. Cause by now we've had, like, five or six people like that. But each time I'm like, whoa, really? You wanna talk to us?
Kayla: Yeah, same. I mean, I was. I wasn't just. I can't lie, I wasn't just excited to talk to them, because, like, the Starbucks. Starbucks workers united and the Starbucks unionizing effort is, like, so dope. But also. And like, particularly these two folks we talked to, because, like, they've been undertaking crucial work in unionizing their workplaces. But also, like, I think we've been to both of their stores for coffee.
Chris: No, really? Were they, like, in Englewood or something?
Kayla: One of them is in Lakewood, where you and I. Close to where you and I used to live when we lived down there. Remember when we used to go to, like, that mall?
Chris: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Kayla: That one was over by the mall, and then the other one was, like, more downtown. Long beach that I. I'm pretty sure we've been to.
Chris: Okay, we should probably say that all of these are, like, past places we've lived.
Kayla: We do not live there currently, just.
Chris: In case we get, like, super doxed or something.
Kayla: So not only are our listeners eager to hear what Josie and Tyler have to say, I was also very eager to have this conversation. So let's jump in and learn more about Starbrook's workers united, the circumstances that brought about this major shift in the fight for labor rights across the country, and whether or not Starbucks is actually a cult. And don't worry, we definitely get into that question.
Chris: I am super stoked.
Kayla: This is Kayla, this is Chris, and this is cult or just weird.
Josie Serrano: I.
Kayla: My first question is going to be, can the two of you introduce yourselves? And so we like to ask for names, pronouns, and just whatever you like to share of your background or work history or what you like to do on the weekends.
Josie Serrano: Hi, my name is Josie Serrano. I'm an organizer from a Starbucks in Long Beach, California. I use they them pronouns. My store is the Redondo and 7th location. Along with Tyler store, were the first two stores to unionize in southern California. I've been working at Starbucks for about four ish years. Like, a little over four years. It's always been my side job while I've done design and film work on the side. So this has been a job that I've had in between 20 hours and full time, 40 hours for the last few years.
Tyler Keeling: My name is Tyler Keeling. I've been at Starbucks for six years, and this is actually the job I've done for the majority of my adult life. I started here because the company had, like, a really strong reputation for being, like, a company where, you know, gay people would work. And I come from, like, a really small, conservative desert town in the middle of nowhere, California. And I was, like, really scared about getting into the workforce because of where I came from. And so Starbucks felt almost like a safe haven of a job for me.
Tyler Keeling: Could that coupled with, like, you know, it having the reputation for having good benefits and just being a good place to work overall, like, it felt like the only option I had if I wanted to go into the workforce as, like, you know, a young gay person supporting myself, needing some sort of, like, stable job that I could be safe at. So I've been at the company since I was, like, 1920 years old, since 2016.
Kayla: You know, I'm going to go off book off of my own questions already, because you brought up a really good point. I think that Starbucks having this reputation for a long time of being, just being a great place to work for, you know, in terms of the, what the healthcare will cover, what education stuff will get covered. Just the environment. Yeah. For queer people, for gay people, for trans people, you know, being better than other places. Can you talk a little bit about that shift of, like, the popular narrative used to be? Maybe it still is. Used to be. Starbucks is like the place to work. And now in this process of unionizing, it's become, especially in leftist circles, like, we're looking at it as a very hostile place to work in some ways.
Tyler Keeling: Yeah. I think me and Josie can both offer, like, varying in various different perspectives on this front because of kind of like, who we are and our, like, what the company has, you know, presented itself as to us. Like, for me, I, you know, like I said, I went to this company, you know, as a young gay boy trying to find some form of stability in my life. And it's just, it's interesting because, like, they do hail themselves as this, like, extremely progressive company and a company that you want to work at if you are, you know, gay or young or I, you know, what have ye about being, you know, very youthful and outcasted in, like, regular jobs.
Tyler Keeling: And one thing that struck me as really interesting is that, like, almost from the jump, it felt very much like I was being asked to conform to a certain standard. And, like, I felt that from the first time I went there, like I come from, you know, like I said, a very small desert town. It's a very unique culture there. The way people act there is very unique as compared to, you know, like, a bigger city. And when I got hired up, I got hired on an Olympia, Washington, which is, you known for, you know, its history and music and punk and riot girl and etcetera.
Tyler Keeling: But when I got hired on up there, I felt like I was being asked to, like, tame who I was and calm myself down and fit into kind of like a box in a lot of ways, which in a lot of ways also meant kind of like erasing my identity as a gay person. And it only got worse as my time with the company went on because I would experience workplace homophobia and it would kind of just be like the blame would be shifted onto me. I even recently as, like late last year, I had an incident with a co worker where this coworker said something really homophobic to me. And when I spoke to my manager basically was like, well, what did you do to provoke this from being brought up. And I was just kind of, like, dumbfounded by that.
Tyler Keeling: And, like, it's interesting because, you know, this company does have that want to be seen as, like, a gay friendly workplace. But then I. My experience coupled with even stuff Josie can talk about in their experience, two vastly different experiences that go completely against what Starbucks is trying to present themselves as.
Josie Serrano: Yeah, like, when I started at Starbucks, it was always meant to be temporary. It was. I had been working in the film industry as a production designer and, like, working in the art departments, and I realized that wasn't the best environment for me to be in, you know, like, Hollywood and, like, you know, Los Angeles. And the film industry out there is outwardly so, you know, like, liberal, progressive, whatever. But behind the scenes, I have encountered, like, so much, you know, transphobia, homophobia, everything. And this was around the time that I had come out to myself as a trans person. And so Starbucks was always one of those jobs that was, you know, branded as this, like, really nice place to work no matter who you were.
Josie Serrano: And it was somebody, like, they always had a lot of advertising that was expressing, like, their gratitude for, you know, the diversity of everybody. And so, like, right when I started working at Starbucks is when they announced as a company that their health insurance would start to cover trans procedures, trans healthcare, all kinds of stuff like that. And at the time, that was so novel. Like, even today, like, so many companies don't offer that on, like, their own abode. Like, so much of that is like, either, you know, governed by the state or, you know, a company just doesn't want to offer that. So I was like, well, this is somebody somewhere that I can stay for a little while and maybe like, you know, figure myself out in the process.
Josie Serrano: And what I had learned through that whole experience is that not only is the whole, like, package of trans healthcare and benefits through Starbucks extremely hard to navigate and is really honestly very inaccessible to most of us due to how much money we have to put into it, even just to access it or how many hours we have to work a week to access it. But the culture within Starbucks management, is very susceptible to store managers and supervisors that don't feel the need to uphold the branding that Starbucks has. And by that, I mean, like, there have been just, like Tyler said, there's. There's been a lot of encounters that I've had with supervisors and store managers that have been homophobic, transphobic, have been racist to a lot of our co workers.
Josie Serrano: And Starbucks claims that they have a lot of systems and avenues to go down to report that, but it just is something that is never followed up on. I do like to mention that there is a story where, like, there is a shift that I worked where I was only. I had only just come out. Like, I was experimenting with how I was looking in the workplace, and all of my coworkers knew that this was something that was kind of anxiety inducing for me, at least the coworkers that knew me well. And there was a customer that came in, literally came up to the register, looked at me before ordering, and started laughing, and was like, oh, who do you think you're supposed to be? And I didn't really know what to think of it.
Josie Serrano: This was the first time I ever experienced any kind of transphobia. And I took their order, and they walked away laughing and made a comment to one of the partners, one of the workers that was behind the bar making their drink. And then as they left, literally said, I'm gonna come back to work later. I'm gonna beat you the fuck up. Like, literally, like, plain words like that. Like, as they were laughing, and I was, like, in total shock over it. My coworkers, like, the other baristas that were working there, were in total shock too. And my supervisor had just watched and did not interject in all of this, did not come up to me to ask me how I was afterwards. None of that. All of the baristas, including myself, we called our equivalent of HR partner resources to report this.
Josie Serrano: And the next meeting that I had when I had come in for my next shift was with my store manager. And my store manager essentially disciplined me for saying that. I should have been the one to speak up about it. I should have been the one to end that conversation with the customer. I should have said something to the supervisor, and it said that it was my fault, that, like, nothing had gotten done in it, even though my supervisor was witnessing it. And what's happening is, like, we're hearing stories like that all across the country. Like, it's not an isolated incident, and that supervisor did not get disciplined for that. That store manager never got disciplined. That store manager is actually en route to become a district manager in the district they're working in now. So we're seeing all of this around the country.
Josie Serrano: And so it just. It makes me extremely frustrated with how this company is branded as, like, this, like, safe haven for so many of us.
Kayla: Yeah. And it's very interesting that you mentioned. I mean, first of all, these are terrible experiences. Just nobody should be experiencing this ever in life and then especially not in their workplaces, particularly when the workplace, like you've been both mentioned, likes to portray itself as, you know, progressive safe haven and is not actually creating that environment. And it's just so disappear. It's so disappointing to hear about these experiences happening in an area like Long Beach. I used to live in Long beach for a long time. A lot of folks, you know, think of Long beach as a safe haven for queer community. And so for the stores to nothing even be able to protect its workers in that environment, and it's happening elsewhere in the country. Like, clearly this is something that's endemic to the stores itself.
Tyler Keeling: I would even venture to say, like, systematic within the company, too.
Kayla: That is very disappointing to hear. I don't have a. I'm having a hard time articulating myself with a question for this just because it's such a. It's really hard to hear that it's so. And I feel like it's such an encapsulation of so much. We'll see. Of, you know, progressivism, where it has the image of one thing and then just atrocity right underneath.
Josie Serrano: Right.
Kayla: My biggest question for both of you in this whole discussion is just how did you know it was time to start unionizing your workplace? Was it incidents like these? Was it was. Were these incidents just kind of like straw that broke the camel's back or part of a larger hole? Like, how did you know it was time as you've had these experiences stack?
Tyler Keeling: I know in my experience, like, again, coming from kind of, like, really deep poverty and just to kind of, like, paint the image of what that poverty looks like. Like, throughout my childhood, we. We faced homelessness on a regular basis. And my mom was in and out of addiction, and were in and out of living situations within six months at a time. And we never had any true form of stability. And that goes straight through my mom dying and, like, me needing to get out of this, like, dead end desert town. And I left, right. I left when I was 18. And it was very clear what poverty meant to me because it was my lived experience.
Tyler Keeling: And that was an experience that, like, so few people I knew shared onto the, like, to the degree that, like, I had experienced it, like, even up until, like, recent times in my life. Like, I'll talk to people and they'll talk about, like, their childhoods and they'll say something, and I'm like, huh? Like, that's so weird. But, like, it's. It's not weird. My experiences, just, like, with poverty is so different than what most people had. And so kind of like, seeing that we don't say that we have caste systems in place, you know, in the United states and or in capitalism. But to me, it's very clear that, you know, upward mobility through class systems isn't real. And, you know, people are trapped in jobs whether or not they like them.
Tyler Keeling: They don't have a lot of choice as to whether they can get to a better job or get to a better paying job, especially if they're living paycheck to paycheck and don't have any sort of financial support to get from, you know, bad job to better job. Right? And, like, Starbucks is one of those jobs. It's one of those jobs where, you know, it, like, it prides itself on being so good to its workers. But, like, in my store, we have workers that live in Compton. We have workers from Long beach. We have workers from, you know, all over, like, areas of Southern California. We have workers that come from LA because it's like they feel safer working at our store than they do working in LA, but they work in really impoverished areas and underserved areas of LA.
Tyler Keeling: And, like, it was very clear to me throughout my time with this company over, you know, the four stores in three states that I've worked at that, like, we have no protections, we have no recourse. There is nothing that this job can provide to us to make it a stable job. Even though they want people to be at this job long term. Starbucks prides itself on having people be invested in the company in the long term and want to be here. And they, like, have a big focus on, you know, longevity within the company, retiring through the company, promoting within the company, and et cetera. Right. But they don't give the tools for that, and they don't create an environment for that.
Tyler Keeling: And, like, that was a big driving force for me as someone who was very passionate about protecting workers and people in poverty from, you know, what is basically just, like, being abandoned by society. But the ultimate thing for me was seeing that unionization was possible with the Buffalo stores. I was talking to Casey from Buffalo two or three days ago over Zoom, and were just kind of, like, reminiscing because she found my initial intake email that I sent to the Starbucks workers United email, and she's like, look what I found. And forwarded it back to me. And we just had kind of, like, a moment where I was talking about how much it meant to me to see those workers in the Buffalo stores celebrate their victory.
Tyler Keeling: I had ripped that video off of Twitter of them jumping up and down and celebrating and watched it probably a million times. I've watched that video and cried to that video more times than I can probably count at this point. And seeing those workers overcome everything that was thrown at them and overcome management's presence and union busting and threats and harassment, everything that was thrown at them and still fight and win a union victory because they knew that would better for the workers there. I, like, something just clicked in my brain where it's like, you know what? Like, this is exactly what I care about. This is what I'm passionate about in life, and I'm very passionate about my community and my co workers. They're a big part of my life.
Tyler Keeling: And that was the moment for me where, like, you know, it was always brewing there for me. But when the roadmap was laid out, I ran on that map as fast as I could.
Josie Serrano: Yeah, absolutely. Like, it was. This was something that I don't think any of us at Starbucks had ever thought about. Like, seriously, like, I know that even from the moment that I started with the company, like, so many workers were frustrated with hours or how hard the benefits were to obtain or how the workload was always increasing. And this was just something that was just kind of, like, part of the culture was just being mad at Starbucks. I mean, you can even look at the numbers. Like, the turnover rate of Starbucks has only increased over time, exponentially, though, in the last couple of years. I think that when we saw Buffalo do what they did and start unionizing, were just. All eyes were on it.
Josie Serrano: Like, the store that I'm at now, the one that we ended up unionizing, I had just started working at that store a couple months before the union effort started in New York. And the shift that I used to work on used to always have the same three partners. And every day we'd come in and be like, oh, did you see the updates from Buffalo today? Did you see what's going on? We were following it. And the day that they won that first store in Buffalo, we all clocked onto our shifts together and said, okay, we're California. We are, like, this incredibly populated state, but also dense with Starbucks is, how do we start this? And so we got together and like, okay, we can seriously do this. We just got to figure out. We just got to do a research.
Josie Serrano: We got to figure out how we talk to everybody. We got to figure out if everybody is down to do this. And we found that was not as hard as we thought it would be. Everybody was already thinking of, like, if there is a way to change the company, like, if there's a way to do it, like, let's do it. Like, nobody was that nervous about it. Like, everybody just wanted to go forward with it. So this is something that, like, we really. I really do feel like we had kind of brewing inside us for, like, a really long time.
Tyler Keeling: Like Jesse said, the turnover rate at the company, like, it's very indicative of the state of the company during the pandemic. I, like, I used to be able to have access to, like, the management dashboard that only assistant store managers and store managers are supposed to have. My store manager used to go over kind of, like, all the metrics for every week with me. That way, I kind of, like, knew the business and what was happening. And I remember, like, seeing the turnover rate for the company just go up and up every week. And I remember feeling that in our store when, during the pandemic conditions, labor conditions in our store had declined so bad, we. Everyone in my store was. It was.
Tyler Keeling: It was an, you know, an eight hour long panic attack every day, five days a week, when I worked there, seven days a week, you know, for everyone else throughout the week. And it just, like, I remember a point where all of my friends, we all worked the same shift together every week because we had something called block scheduling, where were all working the same schedules during the same day parts, and I was in a day part with all of my closest friends, and everyone snapped. One week, it was. We had just had, you know, two months of bad shifts followed by a week of the worst shifts I've ever worked in my life. And there was this resolve to quit. Everyone wanted to quit. And all my best friends did quit.
Tyler Keeling: And I demoted myself to focus on school because I knew I needed to get out of this company. But I had no, like, I had no recourse for getting out of this company. And that was about six months before everything with Buffalo really started kicking off in the public eye. Like Josie said, you know, like, that day, Buffalo won my store. All of us that were working in the mornings went out to breakfast to talk about that exact thing. And it's funny, because one of the people that was at that breakfast is actually the person who got me and Josie in touch back in February. And we really, like, started taking, organizing in a very serious and aggressive direction in our stores to, like, make it happen.
Kayla: Yeah, I was. I was kind of going to ask, since you're both at different stores, leah, how did. How did your paths cross? Are the folks that work at these various socal locations? Like, does everybody know each other? Is everybody getting introduced to each other? Like, how is that kind of cooperation unfolding?
Josie Serrano: I guess, as far as, like, how it started was our store. Like, my store, the Long beach store, we had gotten together, and were essentially already starting to organize, like, back in, like, January and February. We were inviting all of our co workers out to lunches, like, after shifts, and were just kind of bringing up the idea, like, hey, how do we all feel about what's going on in Buffalo and, like, what's happening in, like, Arizona and other places at that point? And nobody really knew what was going on, but they were interested. And so when we started talking about it, we started realizing that everybody had the same problems at the company.
Josie Serrano: And from then on, it was just kind of connecting point a to point b, which point b, which point a was like, how do we fix these problems at the company? And point b was unionizing. Like, it was just getting that together. And in the process of all of this, one of my first co workers, when I first started working at the company, he had been working at Tyler's store, and he had been talking to Tyler about organizing their store. And through that, connected both of us together. If it hasn't been mentioned already, Lakewood is extremely close to Long beach. It's almost like another neighborhood of Long beach. So, like, proximity wise, were super, super close to each other.
Josie Serrano: And we're able to kind of have partners from the Lakewood store and partners from the Long beach store get together and start talking about organizing before were even, like, public with anything yet. And that kind of, like, led us all to, like, realize how big of a picture this was. You know, like, it wasn't just our store kind of doing some, like, big rebellious thing or anything. Like, this is another store so close to us that was having all of the same conversations, had all of the same problems as us. And since then, it's definitely, you know, like, as the movement grows in California and, like, as we have so many more stores here and across the country, too, like, there's been a lot of avenues for, like, stores to communicate with each other now as well.
Josie Serrano: Like, I think that's partly what's been so successful about this campaign, is that, like, there are so many stores that have undergone this and are going through it and are thinking about it, that it isn't that hard to find other partners and other stores. Kind of, like, how Tyler and I found each other now, and they can talk about it and see that this isn't just, like, a wild concept anymore. Like, this is something that everybody is thinking about as you're.
Kayla: As you're having these conversations. What are, like, what. What are, like, the big bullet points of, like, these are the things that every store or the partners at the stores want to change. Like, what are the biggest problems that come from working at a Starbucks?
Tyler Keeling: Oh, man, that's a. That's a big question.
Josie Serrano: Yeah. Yeah. How many hours do you have?
Tyler Keeling: So kind of, like, the big key points that I hit in my store when I was talking to my coworkers was the general frustrations that we had felt, especially seeing how much of our workforce was new and under trained, especially at this time. Right. Six months ago, when we first started organizing. And it was. It was hard because everyone had different problems in my store with the company, especially, like, you know, older partners who had been at my store or been with the company long enough to remember what it was like when the company was a bit better versus people who were new, who didn't know anything different with the company. Right.
Tyler Keeling: And, like, some really big problems that were having in my store was, you know, around schedules, around consistent scheduling, around not being scheduled enough to, you know, pay our rent, survive, or be, like, scheduled enough to qualify for benefits. And then the other really big thing was the pay rate. And my store, our store, is a fairly successful drive thru, I would say, in the ballpark. During our slow times, we're making anywhere from, you know, 55 to week. But nobody in my store makes that, let alone a third of that. And there's no reason that we can't, you know, be making more when we're producing this much money for the company.
Tyler Keeling: But then what really kicked it off and everyone found really frustrating was at the beginning of the year, our then CEO, Kevin Johnson, took, like, a multi million dollar pay raise, which is more than any of us have made in our tenure at the company. Right? And he just gets that on top of whatever he was already making, whatever insane number he was already making. And the company had also hit record profits. They had netted about 5 billion, with 30 billion in assets that they just had. And store managers had also just been getting these, like, insane huge bonuses for working throughout the pandemic, whereas were given nothing for working throughout the pandemic.
Tyler Keeling: I remember, like, I had a store manager tell me what the bonus was for their store, and it was mind boggling because it was more than I made in, like, four or five months, and they just got that every fiscal quarter. And it was really hard to swallow that when I couldn't pay my rent and bills on time, where I was having to ask family that I had for a little bit of money to help pay my electricity bill or, you know, afford groceries or, you know, God forbid, like, you know, there was a point where I had to get new tires on my partner's cardinal that was, like, $450, and we didn't have the money for that.
Tyler Keeling: It was like, okay, well, now I have to, you know, pray to God I can pick up extra shifts and also ask family for money and stuff like that to survive. Meanwhile, my store manager, on a cup launch day would buy $300 in new cups. And then also, like, she got in a car crash and got a brand new car, and she just, you know, paid it off in full, right off right up front. She didn't have to have a car payment, and she just moved into, like, a new apartment, and, like, she was living completely comfortably as she needed to. And, like, the disparity between me, who has paid more than other braces in my store because of my tenure, maybe it's only a little bit, but it's still, you know, more.
Tyler Keeling: Not being able to afford anything while my store manager could, while our store was so successful and everyone else in my store was fairing off, you know, equally bad or worse than I was, it was. It just was about getting people to see that, be aware of their conditions and be aware that, like, the company had the resources to treat us better. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about that. They just needed to see that and understand, like, that we can fight for better conditions and better pay and reclaim some of our, like, the profits for the workers. Not just us, but for all workers.
Josie Serrano: And I think what's really interesting, too, is that for a lot of stores, they are unionizing because of their treatment with, like, their supervisors, the store managers, all of that. But at the store that I'm at now, I can say with confidence that most. Most of us really like our store manager. He actually was a barista that worked himself up the ladder to become a store manager. And he's like, you know, for the most part, he has done a pretty good job of showing his appreciation for us, and he knows how hard the job is, how physically demanding the job is, how emotionally demanding the job is. And when were getting together to talk about unionizing, there was the question in our store, like, yeah, but, like, we have a good boss, like, why would we want to do that to him?
Josie Serrano: But as we talked more about it, I think our store, were positioned right out the gate in that this was not something that were doing to spy our store manager or even in response to our store manager. This was to attack all of these systemic problems in this company, this, like, culture of the company that lets certain store managers and other stores get away with things that they shouldn't or, you know, like, maybe even not give the support they need to store managers to support the baristas in the store. And a lot of the unionizing stores, like, when they go public with it, they write a letter to our CEO talking about why that store is unionizing, like, what they want to see more of, and then they, like, sign it as a store.
Josie Serrano: And when we wrote ours, we made extra, like, special care to put in there that we like. Our store manager, this is not against our store manager. We are doing this to fight a company that is not fair to anybody working at the bottom, anybody working in the stores even. And that's kind of like, been something that has been. That's made me very inspired by this whole movement. Right. It's like we're all kind of getting this class consciousness at the same time. Like, you're seeing a. We have people in our store that are 17 years old, and I'm 28. I'm a lot older than a lot of the partners that are coming into the workforce right now. But we're seeing a lot of them already come in tired of how they're being treated just after a few weeks on the job.
Josie Serrano: And they understand that what they're making on the job is not enough to have a sustainable life. So throughout this whole movement, it's just been really. It's been incredible. Like, we're seeing so many people want to take back what should be theirs and their labor and, like, just fight for having, like, a comfortable life, not just for them, but for the people that follow them as well.
Kayla: I like that you point out that, you know, you made a point of saying, this is not against our specific supervisor. And, you know, the supervisor's great, and. But, you know, other supervisors are not. To point that out is so important because probably really easy for folks on the outside or for corporate to go, oh, your supervisor's crappy. Okay, bad apple. That's a bad apple. That's a bad apple. These are individual issues versus addressing the fact that, like, no, we are unionizing because this is a systemic issue within the corporate system. Within the corporate, with the system that you have created. These issues abound. And it's not just because some guys, you know, I've been to that Lakewood location, and, yeah, that is prime. That is prime. Prime. Prime real estate. Like, that is making bank over there.
Kayla: But, yeah, it's not just down to one crappy manager. One crappy supervisor.
Josie Serrano: Yeah. What's interesting, too, is that, like, you know, we've had to undergo what we're calling, like, these, like, captive meetings, essentially, like, you know, when the unionizing process starts, they'll have, like, a district. Like, what's. What's likely to happen is your district manager and store manager will sit down, different partners at different times and talk to them about why they shouldn't unionize and give them, like, facts about unionizing. And a lot of it is extremely misleading. There's been unfair labor practices charged with the federal government over some of the accusations that have been made at these meetings. And one thing that I noticed that was really interesting was that our district manager was kind of trying to position that conversation to be like, yeah, your store manager isn't so bad. Like, he has it really hard.
Josie Serrano: And he was trying to hit us against him, knowing that he was a really good store manager. And, like, there could be people in the store that would fall for seeing the union movement as us against him and not us against Starbucks, the company, the corporate offices, the corporate people that are making these decisions. And so that was something that I think she was shocked to see that were always combating when she was bringing that up. We were always like, no, no. This is not against them. This is not against our store manager. This is against the people that are not paying us living wage there, that are treating us badly from the top.
Tyler Keeling: And one thing I kind of wanted to add on that, too. Like you mentioned, it isn't necessarily a problem with a store manager. And there are definitely store managers who contribute to the problem or continuously reinforce problems people are having within the company. But even just to give a really solid example, my store manager was aggressively anti union. She was way more aggressive than most store managers that I've heard of, especially in our state. She was holding regular conversations. She was actually trying to pit people against each other. She launched three separate investigations against me to try to get me fired as, like, the union leader in my store. And she was, you know, she was super transparent about that. She thought, you know, we shouldn't unionize. And there are some people who were absolutely activated and turned pro union because of her.
Tyler Keeling: But she has long since left the company, she left back in June. She, you know, she left, and we had another store manager come into our store, and we don't have, like, a dedicated store manager. We have what's called a proxy store manager, somebody who's overseeing our store. And this manager is incredible. And she's put so much of an effort into, you know, supporting our partners and, like, helping ensure, like, partner satisfaction our store and making sure that, like, you know, people are getting the schedules they need to survive right now.
Tyler Keeling: But I think, you know, her coming in really shows why unions are so important, because you see the disparity between a good store manager and, you know, maybe a less than standard store manager, but also you see, like, even with a good store manager, the gaps between where we are and where we could be or what we should have is still very present because, like, a good store manager can't fix all the problems within the company. These companies are systemic. They're structural within the company. They are built into the company's operational standards. Right. That's not something that could just be fixed with one manager. It's something that a company needs to be held accountable for.
Tyler Keeling: And that's a big part of, I think what's going on in my store right now is people are really seeing, like, oh, good store manager isn't fixing all the problems we've been having.
Kayla: Yeah, it's never, it can never just be one person. When it's a systemic issue like that, it makes total sense. You've both touched on this a little bit, but could you expand a little bit more on what are some of the obstacles that have been thrown at you in this process, either from individuals, from corporate, whatever you're able to talk about?
Tyler Keeling: I think one of the really big problems that has been happening, and it's kind of become more of a problem now, is managers are seeking out. Managers are now becoming more aware of what they are and aren't allowed to do. And they still fumble a lot even with that knowledge, and they still break the law a lot even with that knowledge. But if there's one thing they're queuing into, it's that they can, you know, activate somebody who isn't pro union and try to get them to be aggressive in the manager, like the store manager's place, because this person, like a shift supervisor, for example, who is part of the bargaining unit and who gets to vote, can be aggressively anti union legally because they are one of the people who gets to vote.
Tyler Keeling: And so we've been seeing managers, like, create like, intentional vision to try to turn people against unionizing. And that's been a, it's been a really big problem because managers know, like, you know, if I get this person to do it, I'm in the clear. I'm safe. And they'll sometimes target somebody who they know has influence, too, and try to get that person to then pull other people onto their side. And they often target, you know, like, a charismatic person with influence who people, like, who's like, a good leader in the store. If they see that leader that could, like, that person with influence is maybe on the fence and doesn't have information they need or is against it. And, yeah, it's. That's been one of the hugest problems that I've seen cropping up lately.
Josie Serrano: Yeah, we're also seeing, too that, like, and especially in these captive meetings, district and store managers will target specific things that they know will scare certain workers. So the way that a district manager may, or a store manager may speak to a certain partner is not the way they would speak to another one. And that's when we kind of got into this whole, like, you know, a lot of these reports about how Starbucks was threatening trans healthcare. They were going up to specifically trans partners and saying, like, we don't know if your healthcare is going to be here if you vote yes on this union.
Josie Serrano: And, you know, if you are a young trans person that is only working at this job because, you know, this is maybe your only way to ever get the procedures that you want to get, that is terrifying to hear. And so, you know, it's intimidating. You don't know if you're going to vote for the union if you're, you know, a 17 year old that doesn't know anything about unions, you know, or how this process works. And of course, you know, suggesting that is illegal and that they can't take anything away from you. But that is really scary to hear.
Josie Serrano: I, we had somebody in our store who has been very vocal that they have only been the company to do ASU, which is like a service that Starbucks provides to help cover tuition through online classes, and they're only with the company to be a part of that. And so during their captive meeting, the store manager and district manager were only talking about how ASU could be taken away and the legalities of, they just don't know. The union could want to take that away from you. We don't know, like, and kind of just, like, suggest that a lot. But the, but a funny story is that with that specific instance we had been talking about how a lot of these claims that they're suggesting in these captive meetings can't be physically written down because that would incriminate them because that's against labor law.
Josie Serrano: And so in that meeting, we actually had that part. That partner actually had the courage to ask our district manager to write that claim down, that ASU was gonna get taken away, that the tuition program was gonna get taken away, and she chose not to. She was like, no, I don't think I'm gonna write that down. And, like, was kind of, like, flabbergasted that she was even being asked to do that. So the partner was like, oh, okay, that's a lie, then, right? And so she, like, didn't respond to it and was like, okay, whatever, I'm gonna vote yes in the union. Yeah, that's been one of the more difficult things. Along with also, too, like, we've also been seeing aggressive media campaigns against the union from Starbucks in recent days.
Josie Serrano: But I also think that's partly backfiring on them because so many people are just like, okay, like, here's another claim from Starbucks now. Like, as they're also seeing on TikTok all of these viral videos of, like, you know, management actually treating their employees terribly on video.
Tyler Keeling: Yeah. And I wanted touch on that a bit more, too, because I was thinking the exact same thing as, like, Starbucks has. At first, you know, they were scrambling really hard. They didn't know how to, you know, keep up with us as, like, you know, the campaign ourselves. They didn't know how to combat what were doing or how the media was so glued to us. And then they finally got it together, and they started finally trying to take control of, like, the narrative in the public eye. And they would try to. Anything they would do in one area, in a country, like, in the country, they would then try to blast it all over the country to try to scare people from unionizing.
Tyler Keeling: So, like, anytime they would fire somebody, they would make sure that, like, it was in the public eye that people would see it. And then they've also just, like, with that, you know, spreading that out everywhere to try to scare partners into not wanting to unionize or even being against unionizing. They've also done this, like, internal campaign where they have created false allegations about what's going on in the Starbucks workers united campaign to try to frame us as, like, dirty or wrong, to kind of, like, try to, like, plant these ideas and people's minds. And it has worked in some ways and in a lot of other ways hasn't worked.
Tyler Keeling: And to elaborate on that further, what I mean is, like, you know, very recently Starbucks filed this claim that at one of the actions in Arizona, they claimed that there was, like, the partners who were on strike were being like, really aggressive. They were like hitting the doors and windows. They were hitting people's cars and stuff like that. And Starbucks made this claim and then made sure managers posted this information everywhere for partners to see and would, like, tell partner or managers to have conversations with partners about this. So partners would, like, hear about it and be like, damn, that's crazy. Like, that sucks. Like, why would they do that? That's so disrespectful. And they knew that they had a certain amount of time to get this information in people's minds, whether it was true or not, before it was disproven.
Tyler Keeling: And so, you know, that charge was dropped recently, but that information, like, telling, getting that information about the charge being dropped is harder to get out and be kind of like the initial planted information. And they're trying this again right now where they're trying to claim that there's been collusion between the NLRB and cervix workers united to sway votes to be. Yes. Like, win union. Union votes when, like, in reality, none of that's true. Right? Like, there's not been collusion. We wish there was not. Actually. We don't wish that. But, like, you know, if somebody wanted to make our jobs and our lives a little bit easier, like, oh, no.
Kayla: It'D be nice if the powers that be were, like, actually on all of our sides.
Tyler Keeling: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. But they're not, and this isn't true. But Starbucks wrote this letter claiming that it was true. They didn't file any sort of allegations. They haven't gone through any sort of legal channels with it. But what they did was they put out a letter claiming it was true because they knew that if somebody saw that, they'd, like, whoa. Like, this campaign is dirty and stained with lies. And they knew that by doing this, like, they would also gain some sort of, like, political power and people minds over this and it's not true. And it's very clear it's not true because where's the legal charges with this? Where's the investigation being launched? It's not happening because it's not true. But they know. But by claiming these things that it creates kind of like a bias in people's minds.
Kayla: Do you think that even with the ability for companies like Starbucks and Amazons and whatnot the Amazons and Starbucks of the world to try and control these narratives, and I mean, really are able to try and get these things out there. Do you think the sentiment nationally is different right now than it was maybe five or ten years ago about unions? Like, is there a labor movement happening in the United States right now? Is that. Is that a real thing? Let's talk about.
Tyler Keeling: Yes. Oh, my gosh. Like, yeah, like, undoubtedly, I. Something clicked in people's minds. Pre pandemic where we started, everyone started seeing their jobs get worse, and younger people started getting this, like, notion that, you know what? Like, I don't need this job. I can just quit. Especially people who had some sort of safety net, whether it was living with family or they had a little bit of money set aside and they could jump from job a to job b without a problem. But, like, people stopped being loyal, which is good, because there's no reason to be loyal to a company. Straight up, pensions don't exist anymore. Like, what's the point of loyalty to a company? Right? But during the pandemic.
Tyler Keeling: Pandemic especially, you know, a lot of young people entered the workforce and they saw, like, you know, if they're not going to prioritize me or treat me well at this job, I don't need to be here. And I can even just say, like, from seeing on tick tock, some people just quitting their jobs when they were treated poorly or being disrespected by management, they're just like, you know, I, like, I'm quitting. Goodbye. I'm not coming in today. And I think, I do wish that the sentiment would transform from quitting a job to organizing a job. And I know that's not necessarily realistic in every job, but, like, workers have become so much more aware of their working conditions, especially people who worked pre pandemic, going into the pandemic.
Tyler Keeling: And then now, like, we're not obviously out of the pandemic, but the world is claiming a post pandemic, and they've seen how labor relations change and how they are being treated and how they aren't prioritized at all. And people are fed up with it, especially when they've put so much time or life into their job. And it's created this idea that, like, if they aren't going to prioritize me, like, we're going to prioritize each other. And people are organizing left and right because, like, I mean, a lot of people like their jobs just straight up.
Tyler Keeling: Like, not everyone likes their job, but a lot of people like their jobs and want to work these jobs and have investment in their communities, their jobs, their co workers, their friends that they've created through these jobs, their customers and know that like, we could make this better. And instead of like, a lot of people have gone from that sentiment of I'm just gonna quit to alright, then I'm taking it into my hands and we're taking it into our hands and, you know, collectively organized in their stores and we've seen it everywhere. We've seen it in Trader Joe's, we've seen it Starbucks, we've seen Amazon, Target, we've seen it Verizon wireless, like retail, we've seen it. You know, big lots is, there's the whole thing on Twitter right now with the big lots attempt to unionize. Like it's everywhere. Need pizza just filed Chipotle.
Tyler Keeling: Like it's, it has spread it everywhere and like, it's not through the, you know, hard work of some senior organizer who's been organizing all their lives. It's the workers seeing that they can make things better for themselves and fighting to make things better for themselves. And yeah, there's guidance from, you know, senior organizers and stuff like that, but a lot of it really is coming from the workers themselves pushing and pushing back against continuous exploitation.
Josie Serrano: Yeah. And, you know, a lot of these are, again, like, a lot of these are kids. These are people that are just entering the workforce and they're being born into a world where they're seeing all of these, like, inequalities since day one. I think, too, you know, the fact that we've never been more connected through social media and, like, we've never been more connected than we are now through social media and like, all of these other platforms, like, that's leading us to be able to not only just like, communicate with each other and organize with each other way easier, but we're able to see like, the effects of like, what's going on with these tiktoks, with these strikes, with everything that's going on, everything that's captured and that's like, so inspiring, right?
Josie Serrano: Like the things that, like people were saying where they're saying, you know, like, the revolution won't be televised. Like, now we're seeing this everywhere and we are see, were able to communicate and talk and share and, like, figure this out together. I don't know if this campaign wouldn't have been as successful if weren't able to constantly be talking with people across the state and country as much as we are now, I think it's just, like, the perfect recipe for everything to unfold the way it is to have this beginning of another labor movement like we are. And I really don't think that it's going to stop anytime soon.
Tyler Keeling: No, absolutely not. And even to build on that, too, I think one of the things that's also really driving it is, like, I remember when I was entering the workforce, there was this sense of nihilism, like, oh, you know, millennials entering the workforce. We have, like, the lowest share of monies at any generation being told, like, you know, you're the poorest generation. You guys are set up for the worst possible, like, economic outcomes for yourselves. Like, you'll never own a house. You can't afford anything but to rent if you're lucky. And then. And then it got worse, right? Gen Z comes into the workplace during the height of the climate crisis, being told, like, oh, the world's going to end in a decade.
Tyler Keeling: You're all going to die graduating, seeing everything millennials went through with college not being a viable option in a lot of ways, and also seeing that even if you did go to college, that it didn't necessarily land you a good job or, you know, lift you out of poverty. And all these options that have always been touted as, like, the way to make your life better became either inaccessible or a dead off option. And then, you know, like I said, climate crisis, right? Impending doom. You know, what? What are Gen Z people entering the workforce supposed to feel? Other than, like, at the brink of despair, right? And I do think, you know, despair does culturally have a stronghold sometimes. But then that. That stronghold breaks, right? Because people get sick of despair. People get sick of feeling hopeless.
Tyler Keeling: People get sick of feeling like they can't do anything and snap and do something. And I think that was also one of the biggest triggers for this spreading, right? Like, it didn't just spread from Buffalo for no reason, right? It may have started in Buffalo, but it's a nationwide movement with, you know, 3% of stores across the country so far have filed, and that's the workers organizing themselves with limited resources. We've already won 225 stores in less than a year's time like that. That is some unprecedented, unbelievable movement. That is some unique thing that isn't brought on by organizers. It's brought on by people who know that the world needs to better, or else we're just going to keep seeing it get worse.
Tyler Keeling: I think that was a really big driving force for people is that they knew this was how they could change the world for themselves and for everyone else. Because this is how you hold companies accountable. This is how you make things better for the workers. This is how you take back profit from companies to lift people out of poverty. This is how you fight for a better life for everybody.
Kayla: What did it feel like when your stores won that union vote? Like, what did that feel?
Tyler Keeling: Like? Euphoric.
Josie Serrano: Well, let me just say, like, when were. When were getting ready for the vote, like, Tyler and I were in a room. Like, were over Zoom with, like, all of the lawyers and everything just going over, like, the votes before they were going to be tallied. And, like, my stomach was making these, like, unholy noises. Yeah, very unholy.
Tyler Keeling: Like.
Josie Serrano: Like, I was about to, like, turn into something. Like, I was about to begin a transformation. Like, it was. I was, like, sick to my stomach. I was like, oh, shit, like, what if we lose? Like, oh, my God, I'm gonna be like, so. Like, I don't know. Like, it was just, like, the. This. The culmination of, like, these months of you and your coworkers going through something that's, like, pretty much unprecedented for any of your lives so far. And then, like, having to have that happen. Like, when me and my coworkers and Tyler's co workers were in a room and, like, were watching those votes happen, like, when we both saw, like, prospectively, like, our stores win, it was just. Euphoria, literally is the best word for it. We were, like, jumping up and down. We were crying.
Josie Serrano: Like, the photos of all of us are so ugly because were just, like, red faced and beaming and, like, it was, like, honestly, one of the best days of my life. Just know it is now the second.
Tyler Keeling: Best day of my life.
Josie Serrano: Oh, what's the first day of your life?
Tyler Keeling: Strike day.
Josie Serrano: Oh, that's. That's. That's. That's a good one.
Kayla: I did just. I just read about the strike at your store. It was earlier this month, right?
Tyler Keeling: Yeah. It was so, like, ten days ago.
Kayla: How did that go? It was the best day of your life. It sounds like it must have gone very well.
Tyler Keeling: Yeah. I want to speak on the victory day really quick, and then I'll speak on that. But building off exactly what josie was saying, like, the week before that count, like, I knew we had one. There was no doubt in my mind we had one. I had talked with everybody who had voted. I had been putting in sleepless nights, talking with all of my coworkers. A lot of the responsibilities for organizing in my store ended up falling on me because of life commitments from my organizing committee, who then just couldn't dedicate that time or energy. And I really didn't have that time or energy, but I made it anyways. I don't know how I still love back. And I'm like, oh, God. But, like, I knew were gonna win. I had the hard numbers. I knew who voted.
Tyler Keeling: I knew who sent their ballots back in. I knew were gonna win. And it didn't matter that I had those hard numbers. Those last couple of days beforehand were nothing but this long anxiety attack where I was doing everything to keep myself afloat. That night before I didn't sleep, I woke up on the verge of puking from anxiety and sleeplessness. I felt like crap that day. But we got our little coffees, we stopped by our little stores, and we chugged along to the joint board office in LA to watch the votes be counted. And I'll never forget sitting there validating ballots for both of our stores and just seeing all the names come in and be like, I knew they voted. I knew they voted. I knew they voted. And just being like, okay, this person told me they voted yes.
Tyler Keeling: Like, they told me they voted yes. They told me they voted yes. And just, like, still, it wasn't enough. I couldn't process it. I was freaking out. I was trying so hard to keep it together because Josie was also freaking out. And Josie had also had, like, a week long panic attack. Josie, how many breakdowns did we walk each other through?
Josie Serrano: Like, yeah, it was like, I got maybe a combined 7 hours of sleep that week. And also literally just, like, crying. Like, basically crying to Tyler. Like, in random phone calls where Tyler had to be like, josie, calm the fuck down. Nothing is happening. Like, I was just like, what if everybody lied to me? What if everybody actually wanted to vote no and everybody hates me? And we ended up just getting, like, unanimous yes, and it's like, okay, yeah, like, that's. That's the mood.
Tyler Keeling: We knew what that. Because we had. We knew the number of ballots counted. We knew what our victory number was gonna be. And, you know, my store went first, right? My store counted our ballots first. And when were counting, it was just yes. After yes. And when we hit that 13th ballot, I about threw up and passed out. We were jumping up and down, screaming, crying. We had a room full of, you know, union people, our people, our co workers, media. And it was just like, this loud cheering where you couldn't even hear the votes continue to be counted over the Zoom call that we had over a tv, because everyone was so busy cheering and screaming and crying. And, you know, it was. It was a huge thing because my store was the third store.
Tyler Keeling: My store was the first to be counted in Southern California. And it was just this breaking point for everybody, this huge release. And we continued and we voted 24 to one. And it was just so insane because that, aside from unanimous votes, that's still one of the biggest yes to no ratios that has happened in this campaign. And then Josie Soro was next, and they needed seven yes votes, and they hit that seven and the same thing happened. It was just this even bigger sigh of relief and excitement and hype and just, like, communal joy, because all that work had finally paid off in the first two stores in Southern California to win one. And then the votes kept coming in, and then Josie store finished unanimously. And just a third round of just this, like, insane freaking out.
Tyler Keeling: Us all jumping up and down, hugging each other, like, smacking each other on the back from excitement and just, like, tackling each other. I can't even describe how euphoric that day was. To this day, I still look back and I'm just like, oh, my God. I don't even know how we gave, like, a press release speech after that. I felt like I was gonna pass out.
Josie Serrano: We were like, this is. This is how straight people think, like, when their team win the Super bowl.
Kayla: Or something, like, yeah, gotta get that face paint on. Yeah, let's do it.
Josie Serrano: Exactly.
Kayla: That sounds so good. That's it's history. Like, it's. You're living through historic moments and you brought about historic moments. So, yeah, euphoria makes sense about strike day. Yeah. I'm like, I have to. I was. I have to hear about strike day now. If it's the best day of. Best day of your life, strike day.
Tyler Keeling: I thought anxiety was perpetuated by getting to my vote count. Strike day was so much because normally when you're planning a strike, you want to plan it way further in advance with more time to organize it. We organized a strike in my store in less than three days time, which is, like, maybe a third of recommended time for planning a strike. The other store that had gone on strike had way more time to plan out their strike. They had about a week's time, which did them a lot better than us, and we still pulled it together. And in my store, like. Like I told you, we. We have this proxy store manager in our store who has been doing right by a lot of us. Right.
Tyler Keeling: And it's become glaring that the problems with that were fighting weren't just one person, that it was a systematic thing. And I just had in the back of my mind that people had lost interest in the union, had lost interest in fighting for, like, our contract. And so I was going into this with, like, this really deep worry that, like, I have to reactivate every single person in my store. Like, I don't know how I'm going to go about this in less than three days, nonetheless. And I was also working every single one of those days. I was working eight hour shifts on those days where I was organizing a strike. So I'd have to get up at 04:00 a.m. 03:30 a.m. Really to go to my opening shifts at my store and work eight hour shifts.
Tyler Keeling: And then I would still have to try to, like, talk to people to get the strike organized. And when you take a strike, you have to take a strike vote. And so I had. I made it a point to talk to everyone in my store, and to my surprise, everyone was so on board. I had people who voted yes before I could even explain what were striking over. And it was just, you know, like, in those three days, a unanimous yes vote from everyone in my store, which was just unbelievable to me because I was like, oh, I thought this would be so much bigger of a battle. I was so exhausted, so worn out. And we also had to, like, build community support, right, and get people involved in the picket line.
Tyler Keeling: And, like, Lakewood is a really weird town, and that we do have a lot of union workers there because, you know, the Long beach ports. And so we have a lot of people who live in Lakewood because it's so close to the ports. But Lakewood's not particularly a progressive town, and it was very shocking how the strike turned out to me. I knew that on strike day, I would be there from open to close. I knew that's what was going to happen, because we needed a strike captain there. We needed someone to delete it. And I didn't have time to prepare people. I just, like, there was no time. And so I was like, you know what? Okay, I'll take the responsibility on myself. Like, it's fine.
Tyler Keeling: We'll plan a better one next time, but for now, this is just what I'm gonna have to do. So I took on that responsibility, and I was there at 04:00 a.m. And I was there until 09:00 p.m. And I cannot believe how many people stuck around as long as they did and how many supporters we had come out. We had so many different organizations come out. We had the president of the Los Angeles Labor Federation, Ron Herrera, come out. We had various different subcommittees from the LA Fed, like, the People's project come out. We had baristas from non unionized and non organizing stores come out and support us. We had people from local companies come out and donate food and drinks to us. We had people bringing a sunblock. We had people just coming by, driving by and supporting us by cheering.
Tyler Keeling: And were met with so little aggression. Like, there were definitely a couple of people who were really annoyed and mad at us and, like, whatever, boohoo to them. But, like, we had this massive outpour of support that I never could have seen coming. And I knew it was going to be a big deal because were the first store to go on strike in Southern California. And were a very highly publicized store because of being one of the first stores to not only file in California, but to win in California. And me and Josie have also, like, grew so many connections across Southern California with, you know, different organizations.
Tyler Keeling: And so when I got there at four, I had a bunch of my coworkers there who are never up that early, and they were there, and I had a lot of co workers work, you know, work the strike for 1012 hours. We had people there from, you know, 04:00 a.m. To 05:00 p.m. We had people there from 10:00 a.m. To 09:00 p.m. We had so many different faces and so many people that I had never met who had no clue who were. We had people from different unions from all across the, like, all across Southern California come out and support us. We had, you know, the firefighters union. We had the, like, the flight attendants union. We had, like I said, the labor federation. We had longshore workers. We had communication workers. We had the machinist workers.
Tyler Keeling: Like, we had so many different unions just out there on the picket line with us. And it was. It was so unbelievable to me because I had been so worried that my store had lost momentum. I really thought, like, it was going to be such an uphill battle just to make this happen. And everyone showed up. And then, just, like, the outpour of love and support that came in through the strike fund, Workers United has a strike fund set up that reimburses 70% of lost wages because workers United knows, like, we are a lot of impoverished workers. And so, you know, and the knowledge that we need that money. I also worked with organizations to put together another strike fund to cover that other 30% that wasn't reimbursed.
Tyler Keeling: And I, in my mind, of mine, like this, to get, like, a little bit of money, it'll be enough to cover it. No, we got, like, over $2,500 in less than a 24 hours period. And that money went to all the workers who went on strike, and the rest of it's gonna go to future strike funds for other stores across the state that go on strike and need that other 30% reimbursed. Like, I kid you not. That's just moment that I can't believe I remember at the beginning of organizing people like, are we gonna have to go on strike? And everyone was so scared of it. People were so freaked out by the idea of it. And I was telling people, like, no, like, we won't have to go on strike unless we authorize it. Like, we get to take a vote on it.
Tyler Keeling: And so many people were comforted by that. And all those same people voted yes in a heartbeat to strike. And I was like, okay, let's go. Let's go.
Kayla: That's just, like, the definition of solidarity. Like, to really see it in action and then to also. You brought it about. Solidarity embodied. Yeah, that, obviously, that sounds like a fantastic day and a really successful day. And, like, we've talked a lot about the successes that you've both experienced with your stores, and even though that there. Even though there are still a lot of obstacles and you're continuing to face obstacles and whatnot, what would you say to any worker that was considering starting or joining a union effort that's maybe feeling a little hesitant?
Josie Serrano: I say to do it. Just do it. Like, this is one of those things where it's, like, it was daunting to think about when we started. Just because I think a lot of us today don't grow up with the experiences in the context of unions, other than just what we're learning historically in school and the early 19 hundreds and all of that. But we don't see the effects of that today. And now that this labor movement has started and we've seen so many stories from so many different places, like, from Starbucks, from Amazon, from Trader Joe's, from all of these kinds of places, like, it's. It's so inspiring, and, like, it's. It kind of goes to show you, too, that this is one of those things that is so universally supported.
Josie Serrano: Like, yeah, there are people that will fight tooth and nail against unions, but a lot of the time, it's because they have something to lose as, like, ahead of a corporation or somebody that, you know, isn't fighting for a living wage. If Tyler strike is anything, like, can prove anything, it's that people that are driving down the street are going to stop and show support for something like this because they know that this is the little guy fighting the man. And so many people can get behind that, no matter where your political ideology is.
Josie Serrano: Yeah, I think that it's a little bit daunting to think about, you know, organizing your workplace, but at the end of the day, there's so many people that I've done it in just the last year, and we're all in this together, and there has never been more support and more of, like, movement towards this than there has been today.
Tyler Keeling: Yep. And what I have to say on that is basically, like, it doesn't. You don't have to hate your workplace or be unhappy and you're placed. A union is you can love your job and think it's the greatest job ever and want to unionize to not only, like, ensure that forever, but also continuously make things better and give power to the workers to make those decisions. Unionizing isn't about making a bad workplace better. It's about improving conditions continuously, forever, and giving power to the workers that. That looks like whatever it needs to look like per workplace. Right. Anyone can unionize, and frankly, everyone. One shed.
Kayla: I'm fired up now. I do have. I have one last question. It's a little more silly than the rest of the questions we've already talked about. We are a cult podcast.
Tyler Keeling: Love silly questions.
Kayla: So we talk about cults a lot, and something that's always. Ever since Starbucks started franchising, there's always been the, like. There's headline after headline, going back 20 whatever years is Starbucks occult. There's the logo. There's the fact that they call their, you know, the employees partners. There's the. The people that go there are so dedicated, they'll buy 18 lattes a day, blah, blah. And now that there's this, the unionizing effort, and we've seen really a lot of tactics coming out of corporate. Like, if I asked the question, is Starbucks a cult? What would you say?
Tyler Keeling: Yes.
Josie Serrano: Yeah, absolutely.
Tyler Keeling: Okay. Wait, can I elaborate, though, please? I was hired on an Olympia, Washington, which is, you know, just south of where the company comes from. Right. And when I say like that, I think this company is a cult. This is something I've thought since I was hired on. Like, no joke. I have always been like, yes. Like, when I got hired on and I was being taught about the company, my store manager made a very, very strong point of, like, talking about the history of the company and how benevolent of a leader Howard Schultz is. And I literally. I know. I was like, okay, red flag. I was like, what is this? But, like, I remember, like, they took us to the Seattle roastery as a store field trip to meet Howard Schultz.
Tyler Keeling: And, like, we all got a copy of his autobiography, and we're asked to read it and talk about it with you. And, like, I've always been like, okay. And then just like, this loyalty that we've been asked to have to the company, it is cult like. And I've been saying this my entire career at the company, that, like, yes, this is this company. Absolutely. Like, is it? It is. It's just like, yes. There is a cult like mentality around our, you know, now against CEO and the company and the culture of the company. And, like, it shows if you meet workers who have been with the company for a long time, they all say the same talking points about how great this company is. And, like, they will say these things, and you're like, this is cult. Like. Like, this is demonic.
Tyler Keeling: Something is not right.
Josie Serrano: Yeah. An anecdote is that my sister. My sister is 13 years older than me, and when I was really little, she was actually a supervisor of a Starbucks. And back then, it was extremely common for everybody to call Howard Schultz Howie and refer to him as Uncle Howie.
Kayla: No, Uncle Howie.
Josie Serrano: Yes.
Kayla: Oh, boy.
Tyler Keeling: Uncle Howie.
Josie Serrano: Uncle. They'd call him Uncle Howie. And they would like, be like, oh, yeah. Like, you know, Uncle Howie is getting us this new product for, like, summer. Like, that kind of discussion. And even when I was hired in the company, you know, Howard Schultz has a few books, but one of them is called, like, onward. And we would have, like, a stack of them in the back room at our job, and there'd be a little thing there, like, there's a little note that was, like, for you to read on your breaks, and it was like, okay. And there has been this weird, like, cult ideology towards specifically Howard Schultz for so long. And it's definitely not a mistake that when the unionizing efforts happened, they first started.
Josie Serrano: They kicked the old CEO out and brought Howard Schultz back in, because a lot of the people that have been with the company for a long time, especially store managers, were like, oh, yes. Like, our. Like, our Uncle Howie's back like this. The company's great again.
Tyler Keeling: I literally witnessed a district manager have, like, a tearful breakdown of excitement.
Kayla: No.
Tyler Keeling: Yes.
Kayla: This is way worse than I thought. I thought this was going to be like, oh, yeah. Hahaha. People drink their lattes.
Tyler Keeling: No. It's terrifying. It is akin to religious indoctrination in a lot of ways. Like, it very much feels like. Like I'm being brought in to, like, this group of people who all, like, share this, like, thoughts about some benevolent leader and how. How great, you know, he is and how infallible he is. My old store manager, when he. When Howard came back, he did this really terrible keynote speech. It was goofy, it was nonsensical. It was, frankly, stupid. And one of the things he talked about were these cold foam hand blenders. And my store manager made all of us sit down and watch this video. It was an hour long, and she sat with every single one of us to watch it. And she was like, isn't he so amazing? Look at that.
Tyler Keeling: This is going to save you so much tired, so much stress, so much exhaustion. Look how amazing he is that he's thinking about you from all the way up there in Seattle. And I literally just had to be like, girl, you're a year older than me. You are a year older than me. Why is this what you're thinking? Do you, like, have you not seen true crime podcasts? Do you not, like, pay attention to these? It likes not flagging.
Josie Serrano: Those blenders are like $5 on Amazon. Like, they are not anything new.
Tyler Keeling: And they're ugly.
Josie Serrano: Yeah, exactly.
Tyler Keeling: But they love how fake wine glass.
Kayla: This season especially. And it's like, come up since we started doing the show. Just like, I. It's a running joke in the show of, like, eventually, like, we're just. We're just zeroing in on thesis of capitalism is a cult, and it just keeps coming up over and over again. Like, this season especially, we did a whole episode about, like, corporate culture is cult like. And. Yeah. Having little nicknames like Uncle Howie, like, that's on there. I mean, how do you feel about the fact that employees of Starbucks are referred to as partners? Does that feel empowering? Does that feel, like, inclusive? Or does it feel like a weird.
Tyler Keeling: Jargon that's cult, like, intentionally built to make you feel like a special thing inside this company when we are literally the ground level employees and to the company, we're super disposable. But they don't want us to think that. They think that there's a sense of euphoria that they're trying to build in people and a sense of attachment and identity that they're trying to build within people. Like, why would I feel that working at Starbucks is a piece of my identity? Like, maybe what I did once, and I will say once upon a time, I did right when I was, like, eye bushy tailed, just learning about, like, how capitalism was destroying everything. Like, I definitely had the sense where I was like, oh, my God, Starbucks is so great for, you know, their workers and, like, the environment. Girl. No, girl.
Kayla: And that's what I.
Josie Serrano: That's. That's especially what I mean about, like, how it's so perplexing to me how they've gotten away with this branding for so long. Like, because when I came to the company, too, like, I felt like I was lucky to get a job at Starbucks. Like, I was like, oh, my God, like, I'm finally getting hired this.
Tyler Keeling: They chose me.
Josie Serrano: Yes. I'm finally, like, gonna be around people that are just, like, so cool and so chill and get to make coffee all day and, like, this is, like, nothing. And then you, like, work there for a little while, and then you learn about Howard Schultz's book, onward. And then for Pride month, they're like, hey, happy pride, fellow queer person. We got you a shirt that says onward on it, but it's in rainbow font, like, what's happening?
Kayla: This is a cult.
Tyler Keeling: This is a cult.
Kayla: This is a cult. Wow. And it's. Yeah, it's. It's a. Goes back to that systemic issue of just. It's all the companies. All the companies do this. Like, they all have little names for their employees and, yeah, it's. I feel like we could talk about that for a million years. But.
Tyler Keeling: And it's so funny watching. Oh, I'm sorry.
Kayla: No, I was gonna say thank you for the insight on the cult thing, because I was. I was like, oh, yeah. Hahaha. There's cult like atmosphere. No, it's real.
Tyler Keeling: It. Where. Yeah, we belong to a cult, but it's not the cold cult. There's a cooler cult that we belong to, and it's the cult of our queen, Charlie XDX. And I recommend joining the cult of Charlie XCX just as a heads up to everybody's stream crash.
Josie Serrano: That is the cult that we're a.
Tyler Keeling: Part of, and we're going to spread.
Josie Serrano: Through every media request you ever have.
Kayla: You know what? We've. We. We've concluded on this show that there are some benevolent cults and it sounds like that's one of them.
Tyler Keeling: Yes, absolutely. It's. It's so interesting, like, seeing the Starbucks model of, you know, cult like mentality towards the company being adopted because I don't know if anyone else is, like, keyed in on this, but, like, right before the pandemic, Taco Bell had, like, a massive branding change where they started trying to, like, you know, reinvigorate the brand. And, like, they completely, like, re faced their company to be this, like, almost, like, gentrify looking spot where it's got, like, you know, grays and purples as the main colors. And it's all, like, a super, like, simple. Yeah. And during the pandemic is when I really saw it kickoff. I was like, now, hold up, wait, what? What?
Tyler Keeling: Where they had messaging that was so similar to Starbucks externally and they were making such a proud point about how great they were towards their workers and all the benefits they had and, like, how, you know, the workplace had transformed and, like, I don't know if it was just, like, maybe like, a regional thing, but I saw that happen and I was like, okay, Starbucks too. I see you.
Josie Serrano: Yeah. Like, I think that's, like, a thing that a lot of companies are trying to chase. Like, they're trying to kind of, like, follow that Starbucks standard of, like, being like, hey, everybody, we treat our workers the best. And also, if you work here, you're going to get treated like, you know, this is not a fast food job, you know, when it really is. And they also use that branding and that reputation to take more advantage of you because you think that because you're a part of a good company, nothing bad can happen.
Kayla: So if you work for a company that's changing its branding to look like the stores are all gray, gentrified, and it's stealing Starbucks corporate lingo, just go ahead and start the unionizing process or run, or that. Send one of those texts, show up on r antiwork and then. And then. And then run. Is there anything you feel like we haven't covered today that you'd like to mention or like to talk about, or did we hit it all?
Tyler Keeling: I think we hit it all because we talked about Charlie XCX.
Josie Serrano: I can't talk more about Charlie XCX. Honestly. I thought that was going to be our.
Kayla: But we can, you know, we'll have to reschedule something else. Well, when we do the Charlie XCX episode, I need to go stream some. Stream some music, get involved in the.
Josie Serrano: Call, and then, hey, listen, if you ever have an episode on, like. Like, quotes within the pop community. We're your two people for that.
Kayla: I mean, that's really good to know. Cause we have talked about doing that, so that is really good to know. We might. We might be circling back at some point.
Josie Serrano: I love that.
Kayla: Thank you so much for. For sitting down to. To talk with me. And thank you for the work that. That y'all are doing. It is just. It is the important work. It is the work that. I think you're right that the labor movement is, like, revitalized in America right now. So I'm just glad we got to have this conversation. This has been fun.
Josie Serrano: Thank you so much.
Kayla: Yeah, of course. No, thank you.
Tyler Keeling: Thank you so much.
Kayla: This is great.
Chris: Okay, so I have a bunch of questions.
Kayla: Shoot.
Chris: The first question, the most important one. And I'm just gonna lay bare my cultural illiteracy here. What's Charlie XCX?
Kayla: Charlie XCX is one of the top pop stars of the last half decade. What? Maybe longer.
Chris: Really?
Kayla: Charlie XX. Okay.
Chris: Do you remember when I know little Nazx.
Kayla: Do you remember when Iggy Azalea entered the maintain, I'm so fancy. That was with Charlie XCX. Charlie XCX also does that. I crash my car to a bridge. Oh, that's Charlie XCX.
Tyler Keeling: Oh, yeah.
Chris: Oh, how come I didn't know that till just now?
Kayla: I don't know.
Chris: Why do I not know things?
Kayla: Who knows anything?
Chris: I feel so ignorant.
Kayla: Same all the time. Mostly what I feel most ignorant about is the fact that people who work at Starbucks are encouraged to call Howard Schultz Uncle Howie.
Tyler Keeling: Uncle Howie.
Chris: I think that's cute. You don't think that's cute?
Kayla: I don't.
Chris: Second question is, are they doing PSL? Cause I got a hankering for PSL while were talking there. Like, I really kind of want to go to a Starbucks now and get, like, a frappuccino.
Kayla: I think it is PSL season.
Chris: It's PSL season, right?
Kayla: I think it is PSL season currently.
Chris: But if you're a PSL hater, you can just stop listening. Just get out of here.
Kayla: I didn't want to talk about it. Honestly. Yes, we. Oh, my God. Okay, so.
Chris: Oh, I guess we should probably talk about the interview.
Kayla: Let's talk about the interview. I guess you had some questions while were sitting and listening that I realized, oh, we should probably explain some of these things to our listeners.
Chris: Do you context for me? Context for listeners.
Kayla: I wrote down your questions, but do you want to ask them? Do you want me to ask your questions back.
Chris: I think I know. So the thing that I was curious about right off the bat was Buffalo. So you guys kept referencing Buffalo, the Buffalo store. There was a win of some kind there, and I was wondering if you could elaborate on what happened there, what was considered a win.
Kayla: So the way that Starbucks unionization works, when a store decides to unionize, a vote must take place.
Chris: Okay.
Kayla: And, you know, you have to get a majority of yay votes, and then you're a unionized store. So Buffalo was the first Starbucks retail store to unionize. They unionized under the collective of workers united. So workers united is a really big union. I think it's largely, like, textile workers and laundry workers. They're a very big union that's affiliated with the SEIU, I think, like a very big union umbrella.
Chris: Okay.
Kayla: So when the Buffalo store won their union vote, they became a unionized store under workers united. So Starbucks workers United is like the. The organizing collective to get Starbucks stores unionized under this workers united umbrella.
Chris: Okay. And when Josie and Tyler's stores unionized, is that under the same umbrella?
Kayla: Yes, it's all under workers united.
Chris: I see. Okay. So there's, like, each individual store has to do a vote, but once they do, they become part of this, like.
Kayla: Yeah.
Chris: Thingy.
Kayla: There are steps that must be taken after a union vote is taken. So, like, for example, that's when contract bargaining and contract negotiations have to take place where the union workers meet with management or corporate and kind of start hashing these demands, quote, unquote, out. That's when the contracts will get negotiated, and that's its own whole thing. So winning your union vote is a huge step, and there are steps that will follow, but it's that really big kind of first push of the boulder down the hill.
Chris: Yeah, I mean, that's. It sounded like the buffalo thing was a big deal, and I get it now because. Yeah, I guess it's like you're saying it's that initial push of the boulder, and now there's some momentum. I guess that makes sense. There was probably a lot of pushback on that initial.
Kayla: There was. I just googled this tap. I googled this and learned recently that. And by recently, I mean, while were listening to the interview.
Chris: That's very recent.
Kayla: There have been scattered efforts to unionize various aspects of Starbucks since 1985.
Chris: Whoa. That's, like, right after it was founded.
Kayla: Yeah. So, like, warehouse workers and I think, like, coffee source stuff. Like, there's been various efforts. I think there was, like, a push in the two thousands for the, like, the mid two thousands for the retail stores that kind of fizzle never caught on. And this has been the first, like, big, huge, like, wildfire of unionizing efforts.
Chris: I think that speaks a little bit to what you guys were talking about with, like, the larger sort of, like, is this a new dawn of labor movement in America? It does kind of seem like that. And it kind of seems like, yeah, this is maybe why there's been more success. Yeah, there's more broad based. I mean, I was going to say broad based support, but also, like, broad based experiential stuff. That's just, like, pushing people to this. Right. Like, that's one of the things that they were talking about is, like, people are having these experiences that are garbage. Right. And that was a big takeaway for me, too. It wasn't just about the pay. It was also about the, like, the treatment in the stores and the quality and conditions of their working.
Chris: And that was a big goal for you for unionizing is. Yeah, it's not just getting that living wage being able to be paid to them, but also, like, improving the overall conditions for all the workers and everybody that works there. So, anyway, it makes sense that over the past 2030 years, since those other events, those other unionization events that fizzled, things have kind of gotten worse. Particularly if you are sort of in that working class bracket, then. So it's not just. Yeah, it's not just the more widespread support for this type of thing. It's also just like, everybody's fucking experiencing that and the dam has broken.
Kayla: It's. I think that two pronged kind of effect of the. Just the shitty state of labor right now. Like, you graduate college or you graduate high school into circumstances where, yeah, you can't get ahead by any stretch of the imagination financially. Like, you cannot build up a life.
Chris: Right.
Kayla: Paired with the bad working conditions, paired with everything that Covid brought. And also, I think, a point that Josie and Tyler really brought up was the. How much more connected we are. You can have this groundswell movement across the country because of social media. And, like, I mean, we talked about TikTok. Like, TikTok was referenced multiple times. I follow Starbucks workers united on TikTok. Like, they have these very. They have these social media presences that make sure that not only the partners or the workers at the Starbucks stores are connected with each other, but also the unis of the world are aware of what is going on with the unionizing efforts. And I think that helps that groundswell helps that kind of avalanche effect.
Chris: Yeah. That reminds me, too, of the double edge of that sword, though, which is like, the story they told about some of the tactics used by Starbucks of, like, man, those smelled familiar. Like, the whole, like, oh, yeah, just put the information out there, and it's a. Then it's out there, and the retraction gets missed. But the headline is out there like that. Oh, my God. I've seen that a million times with misinformation and disinformation. And it's just interesting that these large corporate entities are well aware of the information media literacy atmosphere and landscape that they have to play with. And they're like, oh, here's a tool we could use. But I do think what is it kind of goes back to. I think maybe what is helping immunize people, though, against that kind of stuff is it goes back to this universal experience.
Chris: I think that if enough people are having this experience of this shitty, no hope, no future work experience, and if everybody's experiencing that and then you see this, like, attempt at misinformation from a corporate entity, you're a little less likely to be like, maybe they're right. And you're gonna be like, I'm actually gonna dismiss that because of the source.
Kayla: And then when all of the news stories comes out about the NLRB fining Starbucks for its union busting, it helps paint them as the villains in this story.
Chris: Right, right. But, like, ten years ago, that story might have, like, caught fire.
Tyler Keeling: Right?
Chris: Like, ten years ago, that might have been like, oh, shit. I can't believe these dastardly people are colluding with this dastardly NLRB. But today it's like, wait a minute. No, I don't think so. Because, like, everybody has this experience of this. Like, I work for this company and sucks.
Kayla: What you're saying is that the hot coffee fiasco of the nineties McDonald's probably would happen differently today. Is that maybe what you're saying? That maybe that corporate propaganda would maybe have a little less of a foothold?
Chris: Everybody go watch hot coffee. Is this just a coffee themed episode? Is that why you brought that up?
Kayla: I know there's. At one point, I think josie said, like, something. Something is brewing, and I didn't catch that. That's such a good joke until were listening to the interview.
Chris: The unions are brewing. The short thing on the hot coffee thing is basically like, McDonald's was actually negligent. There was just the whole, like, oh, somebody sued them for their hot coffee. Being hot is like, absolutely not. What really happened. You should totally go watch the documentary or look it up. It's really fascinating.
Kayla: Be prepared if you see any photos of the burns because they're not good.
Chris: Oh, I didn't mean to laugh at that.
Kayla: It will scar you mentally.
Chris: Has it scarred that.
Kayla: Has it scarred that poor woman. Yeah. Did you have any other takeaways? If not, I have my big takeaway that I'd love to share.
Chris: I do. I mentioned this to you when were listening. Like, I don't really fully grasp why. I mean, like, I do, and I don't grasp why corporations are so aggressively anti union. Especially corporations like Starbucks, where it's like, we're woke and we have free trade, blah, blah.
Kayla: Right.
Chris: And I don't think there's, like, a great, pithy answer. I do think that maybe it has something to do, though, with the fact that, like, a lot of this stuff that we consider them to be, quote unquote. I hate to keep using the fucking w word here, but we consider them.
Tyler Keeling: To be woke for, you can say.
Chris: Progressive, performatively progressive, or whatever you want to say is more of. Is more of a marketing stunt. Right. Especially the free trade coffee thing because they had, like, Starbucks.
Kayla: Are they free trade?
Chris: No, I mean, they were fair trade. I forgot what the exact one or the exact trade title thingy was, but they were doing. They were like, fair trade coffee. Fair trade coffee guy. Like, they had the label from, like, the organization. And then they're like, actually, we're gonna do our own thing. And so now they have, like, their own, like, in house, like, Starbucks. Like, yeah, they have their own, like, in house Starbucks, like, fair trade stamp. And so it's like Starbucks is going to Starbucks, his own suppliers and saying, yep, looks like Starbucks is doing a good job here. A plus. They get the stamp. We. We give ourselves a stamp. Like, that's literally what they do with the fair trade.
Kayla: Okay, that's a move.
Chris: Anyway, that was a little bit of a tangent, but I guess that's kind of what I'm getting at, though, is.
Kayla: Like, you're saying this company wants to reap the branding benefits.
Chris: Exactly.
Kayla: Of the progressivism without actually having to put their money where its mouth is.
Chris: Right. And so therefore, I guess it's like they just haven't figured out how to reap branding benefits from unionization, because I think unionization?
Kayla: Yeah. Like, I would absolutely go to the unionized coffee place over the non unionized coffee place and that would, they would get my dollars in that way, but it would make Howard Schultz less of a billionaire. Like, it would make what the previous CEO not able to take that multi million dollar pay raise. Like, yes, you'd get the benefit of quote unquote woke points, but it also would have a real material effect on the wealth hoarding.
Chris: I think that's what it is. I think ultimately it's that a union is actually going to cost them.
Tyler Keeling: Right?
Chris: Like, the fair trade thing doesn't cost them because they do their own thing, and then they send a guy down there that's like, yep, looks like we're doing a great job.
Kayla: Right.
Chris: The reason they do that is because it's probably way cheaper than doing the, you know, the actual fair trade stamp thing. And so they can't get away with that.
Kayla: It's like getting rid of the straws without getting rid of the plastic cups.
Chris: Exactly. So I think that's ultimately what it is. This is unavoidably costly to them, right. And, like, that's where they draw the line, is actually sharing profit. Like, everything else is fine. They'll throw a million here or there at stuff that they can, like, blast out on their marketing channels. But when it comes to, like, actually sharing profits with their own lower level.
Kayla: Employees, with the people putting the coffees, drinks and putting them into the hands of the customers, like, the fundamental cornerstone of the business. I'm making violent gestures right now.
Chris: You can hear her shaking back and forth. I'll also say that, like, I know that we rag on capitalism a lot, and there's also. There's the, you know, like you said, the through line of, is capitalism a cult? I'm still a little bit on the fence about, like, the value of capitalism myself, personally, as our, like, you know, resident privileged, straight white dude. But I'll say this, like, these guys are saving capitalism from itself. Like, if it's gonna be saved, right? They're the ones saving it from itself because, like, it has, like, the. The capital class has no qualms about, like, eating up all of their resources until there's nothing left and then, like, eating their own tails until it's dead.
Chris: So they're the ones that are, like, arresting that process and, like, allowing for some sort of, like, balance in a system that would otherwise just burn itself up. So even if you are, like, pro capitalist, rah. And this is coming from somebody with an economics background, the unionization movement right now, and folks like Josie and Tyler are like, if anything, they will save it from itself.
Kayla: Right. Your stance on unions doesn't have to necessarily dictate your stance on economic policy overall.
Chris: Right?
Kayla: Like, you can be pro union and maybe still think that capitalism has some redeeming qualities.
Chris: And did you know Starbucks isn't actually Starbucks?
Kayla: What does that mean?
Chris: It's like. So what does that mean?
Kayla: Don't say that. What does that mean? Is it like, how faithful?
Chris: I read that. I read. It wasn't onward. It was some other book that Uncle Howie wrote. What was it? It was like one drink at a time. I don't know. It was the book he wrote in the nineties. One cup at a time, something like that.
Kayla: I remember that you read the Howard Schultz.
Chris: But, yeah, but it was, I mean, it was like his. It wasn't an autobiography. It was like, here's how I built Starbucks.
Kayla: Yeah, because I remember you. You were the one who told me that it was, like, based on italian coffee shops.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah. So the deal is he worked for this company called Starbucks, which was a.
Kayla: What?
Chris: Yes. Yeah, he didn't found it. This is so you know how, like.
Kayla: He Tesla'd he McDonald's.
Chris: Yes, he Tesla'd in McDonald's. Like, I was just gonna say, like, all of these guys, like, oh, my God. Yeah, so, no, so he worked for a company called. They were roasters in Seattle called Starbucks. And he was, like, their marketing guy or something. And then, like, he left for. God, I don't remember why he left now, but he went to visit Italy. And he was like, man, these Italians, they know how to do coffee shops. That's pretty cool. What a cool vibe. I'm gonna bring this back to America. So he went back to Seattle and he started, it was like, he named his coffee shops. He founded a couple coffee shops. He named it something italian. It was like Il Giorno or something like that.
Kayla: Il Cafe.
Chris: Il Cafe. And they ended up, like, doing pretty well. Cause it was, like, a good idea to bring that style of, like, coffee shop to the United States. It was like, not something we really had here yet, which is crazy to imagine right now because we're in, like, third or fourth wave coffee. But that was, like, new to the US at the time. So it did pretty well to the point where he was like, oh, I have enough money to actually go back and buy Starbucks. So he went back and bought Starbucks and then rebranded his Il cafe, Ilj. Whatever he called the. He renamed them all to Starbucks. And then that's actually Starbucks. And then they just spread from there.
Kayla: I'm shaking.
Chris: So it's like, he started another company that ate Starbucks and then, like, wore its jacket.
Kayla: Wore its flesh wore. Its skin is a suit.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Flesh suit. Corporate flesh suit.
Kayla: I don't even know what I was gonna say next.
Chris: You're gonna say cult.
Kayla: Oh, my God. Well, okay. That's. Thank you for sharing that. That's a very good insight I did. Also, while we're, you know, while we're talking about the ruthlessness of corporations and the lensing and slaying and skinning flensing, callback just also wanted to. While I was doing this interview and doing the research for this episode and talking about it with you, it really did make me think back to the takeaway from our previous episode about boo, about black oxygen organics, and how in that episode, were talking about the reality that small actions can have big results. Like, the little guy can band together to take on the big guy. And that's exactly what we're seeing in this episode, too. These. These.
Kayla: In the face of the corporate behemoth that Starbucks is, these individual stores unionizing are, quote unquote, small efforts, and they are having a huge impact on the corporation, on our society, on media, on culture. I'm glad that we did those episodes back to back and kind of showed that our actions can and do have an effect.
Chris: Yeah, I got big vibes about that when Josie and Tyler were talking, especially about how they were talking about the reaction to or how close they were following buffalo.
Kayla: Right.
Chris: I was like, oh, man. Like, this one store, this one small store, and this one small city, thousands of, like, on the opposite end of the country, and it's having this, like, outsized impact on, like, how many people are, like, paying attention to it and inspired by it and, like, just demonstrating that something is actually possible.
Kayla: Right.
Chris: So it definitely gave me that. That sense of the, like, you know, the small seed can actually end up having that large because of all those feedback effects.
Kayla: Right, right.
Chris: Yes.
Kayla: So we did answer it in the interview, but we didn't go through the criteria.
Chris: So, yeah, we got to do the criteria.
Kayla: We've got to go through the criteria. To answer the question, is Starbucks a cult?
Chris: So charismatic leader is, like, for sure, Uncle Howie.
Kayla: I was not expecting that.
Chris: He's got, like, two or three books.
Kayla: He's got multiple books. They're hanging out in the storerooms. You're supposed to read it. You have to watch his keynotes. Everyone's being like, oh, my God, Uncle Howie. He's such a charismatic leader.
Chris: I mean, I got the vibe of cult of personality from that guy way back before.
Kayla: Like, I didn't know anything about Howard Schultz until he tried to run for president, and it didn't work.
Chris: Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah. No, no. He.
Kayla: Then he went back to being Starbucks CEO.
Chris: Yeah, no, he's always had, like, he's always been, like, a name CEO. Like, he's always been sort of, like, famous within the, you know, within the business communities. He has the books that he's written.
Kayla: Right.
Chris: I recall from the book that he did write. It was very like, my name's uncle.
Kayla: How.
Chris: I don't know if I thought about it in these words at this time, at the time, but it was definitely like, I'm gonna write some mythmakers about myself. Like, it was definitely like that sort.
Kayla: Of the story of how I wandered around Italy until inspiration just struck.
Chris: Right. And then I went back to the motherland and I brought Starbucks back into the fold. But it was really me.
Kayla: So that's high expected harm. And we're basically talking about the perspective of, like, the Tylers and Josies of the world.
Chris: Like, the baristas, me, like, when I have, like, a. Like a venti and then you're all.
Kayla: Hopped up and your heart rate is really high, then I try to get my blood pressure taken, and they're like, why is it 190?
Chris: And I'm like, why is it 03:00 a.m. And I can't sleep. Oh, right. It's because I had Starbucks after 01:00 in the afternoon.
Kayla: I think the expected harm is pretty high here. Like, the stories that Tyler and Josie were telling us, like, not just about, you know, being unable to afford tires for your car, which, like, nobody should be unable to afford tires for their car, particularly if you're working at a job. And then also, like, the literal, like, violent abuse from customers, from co workers. Yeah. To have that experience. And they made it clear that those experiences were not unique to their working lives at Starbucks, like, that. This was something endemic.
Chris: Yeah, I'd say hi. I mean, I do want to give Starbucks some credit for the fact that they actually do, you know, do healthcare and stuff like that, but then to, like, dangle that, like, it's just. It really comes back down to, like, how they've behaved vis a vis the unionization.
Tyler Keeling: Right?
Kayla: Like, yeah, they're unionization.
Chris: Prior to learning about all of that, I would have said, like, you know, it's probably pretty good place to work and blah, blah. I mean, I've never worked there, but that's the impression I had. Sure. But the impression I've gotten over the last several years has, like, really sort of changed my perception of them as a company. And, like, it's just. It's some of these tactics, right. It's like taking the healthcare and saying, like, well, you know, well, just because if you unionize, we might take it from you.
Kayla: Yeah, that's really dastardly. And, like, just because it's better than some other places doesn't mean it's not harming you still, like, if you have, you know, potential, not even the promise of if you have the potential to access healthcare or the potential to act. Not healthcare. Health insurance. The potential to access health insurance. The potential to access, you know, aid with schooling. But you still can't even make enough money to pay your rent or to buy tires for your car. Like, that is still a net hard.
Chris: If you can't live in the place that you need to live to work at the place that you're working.
Kayla: Oh, don't get me started on that.
Chris: Yeah. And then, like, the information warfare stuff is like, that's really pernicious.
Kayla: So not a fan.
Chris: Yeah, I'm gonna say probably high on this one. Maybe not like, 100%, but in. In the nineties. The high nineties.
Kayla: What do you think about ritual? Don't forget that they call all of their Starbucks employees partners. They have a logo.
Chris: The logo is big for them, actually. The logo, the coloring, the, you know, the logo. Their logo. That's not just us. I mean, like, their logo is popular fodder for conspiracy theorists since, you know, Internet immemorial.
Kayla: What about the fact that, like, they, you know, they have specific. You know, they were calling him tall, grande and venti.
Chris: Oh, I was going to bring up.
Kayla: Big, medium and small or whatever.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Because they're fancy. They're fancy.
Kayla: Italian.
Chris: Italian.
Kayla: Get your cappuccino. Is that ritual?
Chris: Absolutely. Is it ritual for your boys, though?
Kayla: Is it. It's ritual for your. For your manager to sit you down and make you watch Uncle Howie's keynote speech and then you read the book.
Chris: Yeah, I don't. I don't think.
Kayla: Onward, shirt.
Chris: I don't think the drink names count as ritual for employees. I think that's ritual for customers.
Kayla: I think it's overall ritual. I don't know. I think that.
Chris: I mean, it's definitely there.
Kayla: I think that there's presence of ritual.
Josie Serrano: For sure.
Chris: For sure.
Kayla: We already answered this one. Is it niche within society?
Chris: No. So it's a religion. I mean, at this point, that changes it from cults are just weird to religion or just weird.
Kayla: I feel uncomfortable saying the best they can do is religion that workers are in a religion. I also feel uncomfortable saying that workers are in a cult, but I guess that's what we do on this podcast, is make unilateral judgment calls about circumstances that we are personally not invested in.
Chris: That's right. Like the good white people podcasters that we are.
Kayla: Antifactuality. If you're leveraging disinformation, is that antifactuality?
Chris: And it also seems like the weird tactics. Not weird tactics, like the to say, we dirty tactic.
Kayla: Union will keep this. We don't know if that's pretty well.
Chris: And the, like, turning workers against each other. Like, the whole tactic that Tyler, I think, was Tyler talking about this, where they would take, like, a particularly charismatic person that works the partner.
Kayla: Sure.
Chris: And, like, inject them with their, like, anti union agenda to try to, like, disperse that. I mean, like, Machiavelli would be proud of that. I don't know if it makes it Uncle Machi disinfect. I don't know if that's anti factual, though. Certainly the information warfare is. Yeah, I mean, like, the. The lying. The lying is for sure.
Kayla: It's present.
Chris: It's present. I'd say, you know, like, 78.2% percentage.
Kayla: Of life consumed seemed pretty high for these workers. I mean, Tyler was.
Chris: Oh, yeah. Tyler was like, I'm waking up at 04:00 a.m. Yeah.
Kayla: Working, you know, eight hour shifts five days a week or seven days a week. Or, like, in the pandemic, there was so much turnover, and, like, it's. And then outside of shifts, they were also talking about, like, how many workers will end up with, you know, Starbucks being a huge part of their identity, even outside of this.
Chris: Yeah, it seems pretty. Pretty high in the life consumption. It was pretty gnarly when he was talking about the, like, the shift stuff, too, where I was just like, God, that sucks that people are forced to need to, like, arrange their schedules to make enough money to live. Like, couldn't we just pay them more? You know, like. And that's what this is all about.
Kayla: But it's just like when Tylere said, like, when Tyler estimated that their location was making $50 to $60,000 a week and that nobody at that store was making that in a year.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah.
Kayla: Oof.
Chris: Yeah. I wonder what their cost of goods is. Probably not that much.
Kayla: I don't know. Dogmatic beliefs.
Chris: We're right. Everybody else is wrong. I didn't really get a huge sense of that. I mean, they were definitely playing the, like, we're right. The unionizers are wrong card.
Kayla: I didn't get the sense of like, we are the ones who cure. We're the only place to work or any of that, really?
Chris: Yeah. I'd say that's fairly low.
Kayla: Chain of victims.
Chris: They don't feel recruiting in that way.
Kayla: I don't know. I think that the projecting the image of, like, this is a place for cool gazed work is like a little. To portray the company as a place specifically for gay people, for queer people, for trans people to come and work does feel recruiting in a way, to the point where it is a running joke or a running theme in queer circles that people are gonna go work at Starbucks.
Chris: Do you get the impression that then that because this is chain of victims, right. So you get the impression that that sense then gets passed on from one person to another. Like, hey, you should come work at Starbucks. It's really friendly.
Kayla: It seems if that exists, that chain is now being broken by the Tyler's and the Joses of the world who are speaking up about the realities. I'm going to kind of say, I don't know.
Chris: Yeah, this is an uncertain criterion.
Kayla: Safe or unsafe exit.
Chris: I'm actually gonna go with unsafe exit on this one.
Kayla: I think I am too, because.
Chris: And I'm doing, like, a little bit of a flex with the rule here. But, like, I think that even if you're not literally exiting, like, leaving the company, I think the unsafe part here is what these union organizers are facing. Right? Like, it's unsafe for them to exit the cult like, part of the company into this version of Starbucks that's more friendly to the workers.
Kayla: Right.
Chris: And actually respects them as a block of power. Transitioning from one, from not having that to having that. That seems unsafe. That seems like something that the company is aggressively attacking. And so I would say that is my quote unquote, exit. And that is what's unsafe.
Kayla: I'll see that. And I'll add, Tyler and Josie specifically talked about how Starbucks creates an environment in which you can't leave because you're paid so low, you cannot build any sort of nest egg or safety net to be able to leave. So leaving Starbucks, they said the people who quit are people who had families to rely on or somehow had money. Leaving Starbucks means you might be homeless, you might lose your car, you might not be able to get another job. You might go into debt.
Chris: You can't buy groceries.
Kayla: That's an unsafe exit if I ever heard one.
Chris: Yeah. And that's certainly not unique to Starbucks. But it doesn't mean that it's not true for them. Right? I'd say unsafe exit is high.
Kayla: What do we think? Is Starbucks a cult?
Chris: So we had a few that had scored low. I think we had, what, two? One that was low and one that was uncertain, and then the rest were pretty high. I think that is a yes. But it's yes to religion. And also, I think that, like, the.
Kayla: Expected heart, not calling it a religion.
Chris: Yeah, it is.
Kayla: I think I just.
Chris: Bro, we called Zumba a religion. Obviously, Starbucks is more religious than Zumba. They have, like, cult symbols and shit.
Kayla: I. Uncle Howie going to follow the lead.
Chris: The father, the Son, and the holy cup of coffee.
Kayla: I'm gonna follow the lead of the folks that we interviewed today. And they said cult. So I didn't give them.
Chris: Whoa, hold on. That was a biased survey.
Kayla: Kayla saying cult.
Chris: I'm saying religion. So it's a split decision here.
Kayla: Split decision. Hungarian.
Chris: Frankly, I'm inclined to go back and ask Josie and Tyler and present them with this new information, get a picture of what's going on.
Kayla: Well, we did talk about bringing them back, so, yeah, we gotta talk.
Chris: About Lil Nas X. Charlie X. Charlie XCX. Charlie XCX. That's right. I know things.
Kayla: Thank you again to Tyler and Josie for chatting with me about all of this stuff. I really. I learned a lot. I had no idea what was going on behind these, like, unionizing efforts. And I had no idea that Uncle Howie was a thing.
Chris: That's right. I didn't know Uncle Howie was a thing either, even though I had read a book by Uncle Howie. So thank you for that. Thank you. And also thank you for what you're doing. It is indeed the Lord's work, as we say.
Kayla: We will be sure to link in the show notes and on our social media, any, you know, any pertinent resources. So we'll get you all connected with Starbucks. Workers united, their website, their social media. You know, follow them on Twitter, on TikTok. I'm sure they have an Instagram, but there is specifically a website that you can go to. It even has, like, a pledge that you can sign to stand with Starbucks stores if and when they need you, like, for these strike actions or maybe potential boycotts or other things that are down the road. So check out our show notes for all of that information.
Chris: All right, I'm gonna give me a PSL.
Kayla: Let's go.
Chris: Yeah, this is Kayla, this is Chris.
Kayla: And this has been cult or just coffee, Uncle Howie?