Kayla: We use technology like, that's what. That's what makes us human. That's what separates us, quote unquote, from other animals. Most other animals do not develop with technology in this way. They can use rudimentary technology, like the crows with the sticks or whatever, but they're not doing what we're doing. Welcome to Cult or. Just. I'm Kayla. I'm a writer.
Chris: I'm Chris. I'm a game designer and data scientist. And after last episode, I guess I'm terrified of death now. Thanks, Kayla.
Kayla: In my notes, I put as your voice, I'm Chris. I'm a butt.
Chris: So I'm a butt.
Kayla: I'm a butt.
Chris: Why did you put that in your notes?
Kayla: It was funny.
Chris: Okay, so on a script that nobody was gonna see unless you said something.
Kayla: Well, usually we share it with our Patreon.
Chris: Oh, that's true. Was this a lead into.
Kayla: It wasn't, but now it's. If you would like to see the screen where I called Chris a butt in his own voice, you can find us and support the show@patreon.com. Cult or Just Weird.
Chris: Wow, that's gonna be so valuable one day. Even though it's on the cloud and available to anyone that really wants it.
Kayla: Any hackers that want to hack into my Google Drive. If you want to talk to other weirdos about cults and how much of a butt Chris is, you can join us on discord. Links are in the show notes.
Chris: That's not what the discord's for.
Kayla: Discord is now an all butts, all the time place. God damn it.
Chris: So, literally, we made a community where the purpose is to make fun of me. Is that what happened?
Kayla: I mean, if I'm involved, yeah, I.
Chris: Guess that's what our marriage is.
Kayla: I love you. So, Chris, we are basically kicking off a new topic today. We covered cryonics over a five episode run. We had our. We got waylaid with terror management theory to kind of underpin the rest of the season. And we are about to launch into another slew of episodes on cult or just weird one we've wanted to cover on the show, I think, for a long time.
Chris: I love all your emotion related words waylaid. And now we're gonna launch. It's very dynamic wording.
Kayla: We are launching into transhumanism. But before we get into that, I have a question for you.
Chris: You always have a question for me.
Kayla: Has medical technology ever improved your natural human state? And if so, in what ways? And if you can't think of any, I have let me give you one. Let me start you off. Let me start you off.
Chris: Sure.
Kayla: Braces.
Chris: Yeah. I'm currently wearing a retainer.
Kayla: You have a permanent retainer implanted into your gum line. You have a metal retainer.
Chris: It's in the back of my bottom teeth. Yeah.
Kayla: A metal implant in your mouth to permanently fix your teeth into better placement than the natural position they had before.
Chris: I'm transhuman, bro.
Kayla: I say that's transhuman for myself. I wear glasses in contacts.
Chris: Oh, yeah?
Kayla: Adjusting my naturally poor eyesight with optometric technology.
Chris: What about the whole, like, we all only, like, we all store our knowledge of phone numbers on our phones. Now, does that count?
Kayla: I'm not ready to have that conversation about how half my brain is in my phone. Kills me.
Chris: I think it counts.
Kayla: You've shared the argument before that forms of birth control are transhuman. And I've used the birth control pill. We've both been fortunate enough to utilize the technology of IVF, which is clearly.
Chris: Yeah, that's for sure.
Kayla: Transhuman can't even make an argument. And I'm sure if we sat here, we could come up with a million more answers to this question. And I'm sure our listeners at home can think of a thing or two of themselves. Like, think cochlear implants or even hearing aids or prosthetic limbs. Like, there are things in the world today.
Chris: Anytime somebody treats some sort of disability, I would argue, yeah, that's transhuman. That's an artificial improvement over, like, whatever the natural state was going to be for that person.
Kayla: Congratulations, Chris. You're transhuman.
Chris: Does that mean my therapy is transhuman? Are my drugs transhuman?
Kayla: I don't know. I don't know.
Chris: Are all drugs transhuman?
Kayla: I mean, by this very liberal definition, then you can make an argument. We're gonna get into the stricter definition of what actually the philosophy covers. But makes you think, right?
Chris: Makes one thing.
Kayla: Makes one think. From PD Hopkins paper on transhumanism in the Encyclopedia of Applied Ethics. Quote, transhumanism is the position that human beings should be permitted to use technology to modify and enhance human cognition and bodily function, expanding abilities and capacities beyond current biological constraints. So under that definition, human cognition is in there. Like, when I take Adderall that is enhancing my natural human cognition, it expands my brain's abilities and capacities beyond its current biological constraints of, like, not being able to utilize dopamine correctly. Whatever the fuck's going on in there.
Chris: Being distracted all the time. Yeah, it kind of feels like. I would say drugs are, but therapy's not. But I don't know why it feels that way.
Kayla: Yeah, I don't know.
Chris: Like one of those things feels artificial and the other one feels like people just talking, but that feels like an arbitrary distinction, too.
Kayla: A little bit of a value judgment as well.
Chris: Yeah. We're just gonna land on, like, nothing is knowable.
Kayla: No, that's. Yeah, no. Okay, look, this is a very liberal definition again. And just because one might check the box of, like, lightly transhuman, that does not necessarily make one a transhumanist. So what's the difference?
Chris: Do I need a card?
Kayla: You need a card. You have to, like, sign a card. And, you know, like those communism cards that you used to sign. It's like that. Yeah.
Chris: I did not used to sign them. It's not that I did not used to sign those. I don't know what you're talking about.
Kayla: Transhumanism is a philosophy, an intellectual movement, a collection of ideas and discussions and shared goals, all with the intent of pushing humanity forward along its technological journey.
Chris: And like other movements and philosophies, that means it's going to be very hard to evaluate on the show when we do the criteria.
Kayla: But we will.
Chris: But we'll do it anyway.
Kayla: Humanity, plus an organization we'll talk about a little bit more, a little bit later, describes transhumanism thusly. One, the intellectual and cultural movement that affirms the possibility and desirability of fundamentally improving the human condition through applied reason, especially by developing and making widely available technologies to eliminate aging and to greatly enhance human intellectual, physical, and psychological capacities. Two, the studies of the ramifications, promises, and potential dangers of technologies that will enable us to overcome fundamental human limitations and the related study of the ethical matters involved in developing and using such technologies.
Chris: Yeah. My impression from doing the research for these upcoming episodes is that it's like transhumanism is artificially improving human lives, but mostly we mean anti aging.
Kayla: Yeah, yeah. And it's not that's wrong, and it's not that those things aren't, like, going together, but the fact that specifically anti aging and longevity is so the forefront, rather than, like, I don't know, fucking. Can I get cybernetic legs that can make me be able to dunk?
Chris: Kayla, if only we had a theory, a management theory to help us explain.
Kayla: Okay. I think that having six cybernetic legs that allow me to dunk would better manage my terror of death than just, like, living to 110.
Chris: So do you still have your regular arms, you just have six. Is it three on each side? Is that the idea?
Kayla: Sick legs.
Chris: Oh, I think you said six, and I was, like, picturing him, like, okay, why not just have two really strong.
Kayla: No, no. What I mean is, like. Like legs on top of legs. So it's not like.
Chris: So it's not even like a spider.
Kayla: It's like, I have six legs stacked.
Chris: So on the bottom of the feet of your first leg, start the thighs of the next set of legs.
Kayla: That's what transhumanism is all about.
Chris: That would certainly work.
Kayla: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah.
Kayla: I think somebody needs to call up humanity plus and tell them that we've got the next big thing.
Chris: I think we need to call our lawyers so they don't steal it.
Kayla: Yeah, the anti aging thing.
Chris: I'm assuming it's mostly that.
Kayla: We'll get to that.
Chris: Yeah, we'll get to that.
Kayla: Transhumanists are generally very pro existing technologies, like stem cell therapies, genetic engineering, cryonics, neotropics, you know, pharmaceuticals enhancing cognition. But, like, neotropics doesn't refer to, like, Adderall. It refers to, I think, like.
Chris: Like psychedelics.
Kayla: Not psychedelics, but, like, micro dosing. Like those fucking pills you get advertised, like the. The, that limitless pill. The pill in limitless where it's like, ooh, you take this pill, it's gonna, like, make your brain more than 10%.
Chris: Gives you super brain. Right. Okay. I. You know, I've always been, like, a little tiny bit confused about the word neutral, like, what nootropics means. I guess comparing it to that movie makes sense.
Kayla: Umbrella. Yeah, that's my understanding of it. Pharmaceuticals that enhance cognition, but, like, neurotropics, I think, is kind of like, this is cutting edge. This isn't necessarily, like, mainstream pharmaceutical medication.
Chris: It's. It's. God, it's pretty damning that these guys think of the. I don't want to start criticizing yet, but I am.
Kayla: I'm not saying they're wrong.
Chris: I. It's pretty damning that, like, well, actually is the 10% brain thing like them.
Kayla: No, that's from limitless.
Chris: That's from limitless.
Kayla: That's from limitless.
Chris: Okay, so it's just the writers. Just for context. Just for context. That is a myth.
Kayla: It's a myth.
Chris: We don't use 10% of our brains, and there's, like, 90% of unused capacity.
Kayla: That's how it works.
Chris: Knew how to use it. We would all become protoss and, like, psychologically, like, psychically bend spoons. And whatnot. It's just that our brains are. Every region of our brain isn't always, like, maximally active with electrical activity.
Kayla: That said, the limitless tv show was really good. I really liked it.
Chris: There was a tv show?
Kayla: Yeah, I never saw the movie, but I saw the tv show, and I really liked the tv show, and it was really good.
Chris: Oh, snap.
Kayla: Yeah. It was like a procedural. Okay, so we're talking stem cell therapies, genetic engineering, smart prosthetics, hormone therapies, wearable tech, like even Google glasses, biomonitors, things like this. They're very. They're pro AI, they're pro. A lot of this stuff that we actually do utilize in modern, like, in modern day society. Not like just thinking about the future. And they're very pro. Kind of like these cutting edge things or speculative or proto science things. Like cryonics.
Chris: Right.
Kayla: Especially because cryonics will allow people to live into a future theoretically where they.
Chris: Can then live forever, where several of these said technologies will be available to bring them back.
Kayla: Transhumanism is not just a philosophical endeavor around tech. It also revolves around things like politics and ethics as well.
Chris: Interesting.
Kayla: For example, many transhumanists seek to protect humanity from existential risks. So things like climate change or nuclear war.
Chris: That sounds good.
Kayla: That's political. Another example, transhumanism.
Chris: Don't bring this politics into the podcast, Kayla, where you're like, anti climate nuclear devastation. Okay? Like, there's both sides to that argument.
Kayla: I'm watching fallout. I know there's both sides.
Chris: That's true. Fallout is a pretty pro nuclear devastation. No, it's not.
Kayla: Another example. Transhumanists generally believe that all people should have the inherent right to utilize technology to alter, improve, or enhance their bodies and minds however they like, as long as it does not interfere on another person's rights. So bodily autonomy and where that starts and ends is a huge part of it. That's ethical, that's political. It's all of it, right?
Chris: Okay. I mean, I can get behind that. That's like some general sort of, like, good bits of libertarian kind of stuff.
Kayla: The libertarians. I know they are. I went down some weird fucking Twitter rabbit holes.
Chris: Same guy.
Kayla: Do not come up in this episode, in this topic.
Chris: Maybe we'll do a bonus episode or something. But, man, no, there's a lot to come.
Kayla: You guys, I read a Twitter thread that was. I don't know if this is gonna be in the show or not. That was all about. And this was a Twitter thread coming from somebody who is like very techno futurist. I don't know what the right words are. Effective altruistic futurism. Like that kind of spirit.
Chris: Yep. Yep.
Kayla: It was somebody who was explaining, like, here's how we need to get more libertarians in the world. And, like, what we need to do, and I don't know if this is a joke or not. Like, what we need to do is we need to, like, start a business where like, oh, God, like, so scared. A business can, like, buy like, a property of land where we can, like, hire a bunch of surrogates and then like, get like, libertarians to like, give their genes, the surrogates, and we can just like, produce all these, like, libertarian babies. And then we have like, libertarian schools there.
Kayla: And then, like, the kids can decide if they want to, like, they go to libertarian school, and then they can decide when they graduate if they want to, like, go to libertarian college or if they want to, like, get money to start a business. Like, that's not having anything to do with this.
Chris: But, like, no, it kind of does, though.
Kayla: You can go crazy.
Chris: It kind of does. Like, there's, let's keep that in the show and maybe we'll reference that conversation at a future episode or something.
Kayla: Okay. Okay. We gotta, before we get into the absolutely batshit out there, we have to start here. So let's talk about some of the proposed or speculative changes to the human body that transhumanists are referencing.
Chris: Braces.
Kayla: And again, these can also get pretty out there. Some people in the movement believe humans will be able to change themselves with the technology so greatly, we will eventually become what's called post human beings.
Chris: Yeah, very cool. They're into post human like. That's like, they're pro post humanity, right? Yeah.
Kayla: Since this is a philosophical and intellectual movement and not a specific scientific undertaking, this arena is still largely speculative, with some interesting not so speculative examples. Keep that in mind. But back to the original question. What technological enhancements to the human mind and body are transhumanists actually advocating for?
Chris: Neuralink? Is that one?
Kayla: Is that the, I put it on.
Chris: Chip, the Elon musk chip in your brain?
Kayla: My first one, though, was anti aging and life extension technologies. Like we said, this is pretty big. Transhumanist, by and large, want to reverse and cure aging and age related diseases and either greatly extend the human lifespan or achieve immortality altogether, which is why many of them are into cryonics, because they don't think that we're going to be able to do that in our lifetime. So they have to go into cryostasis in order to live into a future where we have cured aging. Big thing for them. Using things like neuralink to eventually be able to, I don't know, do whatever neuralink says that you're supposed to be able to do, and then get into, like, digital mind and having that kind of stuff going on. I don't want a neuralink.
Chris: I don't want a neural link either.
Kayla: Look, I would. Maybe neuralink is insane, but I don't want that neuralink. I don't want that guy.
Chris: Sure. Like, give me gen 17.
Kayla: Different.
Chris: I need a different neuralink from a different company.
Kayla: I'd rather it not be a company.
Chris: And then maybe, like, I think it would be totally cool to control things with my brain. That being said, as much as Elon Musk is just an absolute shithield dumbass, the first neuralink chip allowed some, like, was it either paraplegic or quadriplegic? Guy play civilization with his brain.
Kayla: It's fucking cool.
Chris: And I'm like, that's great, man. Like that. Actually, I gotta hand it to you.
Kayla: You know, other things include enhancing the computational or memory capacity of the human brain. So, like, taking that 10% up to 20%. No, I'm kidding.
Chris: Oh, my God.
Kayla: I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
Chris: If you learn one thing from this.
Kayla: Podcast, they're also really big into nanobots. And so, like, a specific thing is, like, nanobots that can enter the human body and, like, bloodstream and, like, wherever they need to go and destroy pathogens, right. Correct DNA errors. Like, those same nanobots. This is. This. This particular thing is from Ray Kurzweil's the singularity is near, which I physically pulled out a book to, like, what, do research for this. For this.
Chris: But you can research by using an actual book? Yeah, paper and bolts.
Kayla: He has a whole thing where, like, oh, we can put nanobots in your brain, and then they can give you full immersion VR on demand.
Chris: And by can, he means will be.
Kayla: Will be, like, once the nanobots are, like, a thing and the singularity has happened. Nanobots in the brain to create full immersion VR on demand.
Chris: Ray Kurzweil is a futurist, which means it's his job to speculate how things might be in the future.
Kayla: Yeah, things like enhanced or fully artificial organs. Very cool. Stronger and self repairing skeletons. Also very cool. Cyborg bodies, obviously, which we already talked about.
Chris: Wait, so the Blade Runner guy is also transhuman, then?
Kayla: Which one?
Chris: The one with the. Not. Not Blade Runner. The movie Blade Runner. The. The Olympic athlete. Is that his name?
Kayla: The one who murdered?
Chris: Yeah. Though he's also a murderer. But you know how, like, you can, like, these guys get these, like, artificial legs and then they're, like, eight still able to compete and in some cases, like, potentially be even compete better. That totally falls under this cyborg body. Yeah.
Kayla: The ability to change what our bodies look like at will or by choice, or the ability to put the mind into different bodies altogether. Be like, I'm gonna have this one today, or I'm gonna have that one.
Chris: Today, you know, a little bit on the head. Cause the name is basically the same, but I feel like transgender community is basically doing that. It's saying, like, I am altering my physical appearance or my biology to closer match what's in my head. That's something that's like an artificial enhancement or an artificial modification. Feels like that falls under that, clearly.
Kayla: And the desire for and political effort towards achieving bodily autonomy, those definitely overlap. One being able to have autonomy over how the body presents. And again, not all trans people choose to undergo changes to the body in order to affirm their gender, but the ones that do that overlap is definitely there.
Chris: Right. And actually, even, like you were mentioning to me the other day, the gender affirming care that cis people get, that non trans people get, I guess, would also fall under that.
Kayla: Some people do talk about, quote unquote plastic surgery or cosmetic surgery as being transhuman.
Chris: Right. I kind of agree.
Kayla: I think it kind of, like, depends because I'm like, I guess. Yes. I also wonder if, like, if I went and got my lips injected, like, is that transhuman or is like. Cause it's not for a function, but I guess the function is gender, especially.
Chris: If you got them overfilled and you had gigantic lips.
Kayla: I do love the way that looks.
Chris: Like all of the participants on love is blind.
Kayla: They know what they're doing. Okay, last one that I'm gonna mention. The ability to travel off planethood, expand the consciousness in mind to extreme scopes, and perhaps become much like the transcended space baby at the end of 2001 A Space Odyssey.
Chris: So I came across the space thing quite a bit.
Kayla: That last one's not really an exaggeration. Like it is, but it's like.
Chris: It is, but it isn't. Yeah.
Kayla: Sorry.
Chris: Well, no, it's kind of like the. Let's make a bunch of, like, libertarian surrogate babies. Like, from what I understand. I think that guy might not be joking, but. But, yeah, like, the space thing is interesting to me because it kind of feels like it doesn't necessarily feel like we are enhancing because we're not enhancing our bodies. It just kind of feels like we also like space.
Kayla: You guys, I think that transhumanism goes like, I don't know if you can be a transhumanist without also being a futurist. I guess you can. But a lot of them are kind of like. Like inextricably linked.
Chris: Right? That's kind of. What if that's why it feels like they're into this thing? Just because it's, you know, it's like, well, I'm into video games, which means, obviously, I'm also into anime, right?
Kayla: Yeah.
Chris: But that being said, I guess they could make the argument that being in space is not, like, our natural state. So anytime we go there, that's a transhumanist endeavor. Question mark.
Kayla: I also think that transhumanism, it's like, again, and futurists, they both dance around with the singularity and the technological singularity kind of not necessitates, but insinuates that, like, we're going off planet, guys.
Chris: Right?
Kayla: So it's just. Yeah, it's all this, like, it's all merged together, right? Space baby, 2001, space baby.
Chris: It's all about the space baby.
Kayla: Transhumanists, like I said, can have extremely out there ideas about the future. But because this is a speculative arena, the sky is the limit. So I think that's another reason.
Chris: Like, oh, so they can't go into space.
Kayla: The. The. The edge of the observable universe is the limit, and then beyond. And of course, transhumanists are individuals. So eventual goals for the human mind and body depend upon the person. These are some generalizations. Now, I mentioned some real life examples. There are transhumanists who are actively incorporating technology into the body in experimental ways that are outside the scope of the mainstream or traditional medicine. You mentioned how neuralink is actually currently being put into people's heads.
Chris: I kind of can't believe that guy was able to actually play civilization. Like, it's kind of insane.
Kayla: Let me give you some more examples. Okay, I got two for you right here. First example is an engineer named Kevin Warwick who once had 100 electrodes surgically implanted into the nerves of his left arm. This linked his central nervous system. And we're talking like, this was like, 2002 or something.
Chris: Holy shit. That's like forever ago.
Kayla: I know. It's like ancient. This linked his central nervous system to a computer, well as to the Internet. And he then was able to control a robot hand using his brain. And he could feel like if he picked something up, he could feel pressure in the hand. What with these electrodes. His wife also had the electrodes implanted and they were able to, like where this is going, communicate with each other's nervous systems via.
Chris: Wait, sorry, what does that mean?
Kayla: They were able to be like, oh, I can. Like, I don't really understand it, but they were able to communicate like their nervous systems were linked together.
Chris: They were able to tell impulses to each other. When his wife was saying, hey, honey, via neurons, just direct neural.
Kayla: He could go like, I don't know.
Chris: Did it feel like more of a zap or more of like a. I.
Kayla: Think it probably felt like how you feel when you have a he. There's a word that was used and I forget what it is, but like extra sensory, essentially. Like the experience is unlike.
Chris: Whoa.
Kayla: Unlike something that you've had before.
Chris: Oh man, that is crazy. Is this real?
Kayla: Yes.
Chris: Wow.
Kayla: My personal favorite, another example is transhumanist artist Neil Harbison. Harbisson refers to himself as a cyborg because he has antenna permanently implanted in his skull. I've heard of this guy, which allows him to sense colors outside the usual scope that humans are capable of, including ultraviolet and infrared.
Chris: So the antenna has some sort of.
Kayla: Optic receiver that it sends vibrations into his skull. And that can also, including showing him or letting him feel colors or whatever it's doing, he can also like get phone calls and hear music. And it's Wifi enabled, so he can receive signals from satellites from his like, antenna that's in his skull.
Chris: Okay, now are all the tin foil hat wearing guys right now, but just like about this one guy, cuz that sounds.
Kayla: That's a little five g. Five g.
Chris: He's getting the 5g signal that's making him take the vaccine. Yeah, that's actually, that's a really good question. That's a weird man.
Kayla: Are transhumanists pro vaccine? They must be, right?
Chris: Yeah. And I would, now that you're saying it, vaccines are transhuman.
Kayla: Are they? However, they're probably fairly anti vaccine mandate that.
Chris: I don't know. So this goes back into the like, are they libertarians or not? And my understanding, speaking of the bodily autonomy thing, there has been a bit of like a community mitosis on that front in the past decade.
Kayla: Some are and some aren't.
Chris: So now some groups are more liberal, left leaning for lack of a better word, and some are more crazy crypto, bro. Let's make libertarian surrogate babies kind of people. So your mileage may vary, but my understanding is there's different subgroups of transhumanists that makes sense have different sort of beliefs on that front.
Kayla: Okay, but how did transhumanism start? Like, where do we begin?
Chris: Well, since this is cult or just weird, probably, like 2000 BC or something.
Kayla: Yeah. A lot of transhumanists will argue that their history extends back to the beginning of humanity. Like, the first time we.
Chris: Oh, wait, so literally.
Kayla: Yeah. First time we picked up tools, harnessed fire. Like, humans are defined by our ability to use and develop technology.
Chris: Wait, so if we are defined by that, then how is that true transhuman?
Kayla: Well, I think.
Chris: Isn't that just human then?
Kayla: I think that transhumanism is just kind of like the natural next step of how. Of how we engage with technology. I think a lot of transhumanists will argue that we are not pedal to the metal enough with incorporating technology into improving the human body.
Chris: Have they seen the world?
Kayla: I mean, they're like, saying, like, I need to jump off the building and be able to land and my leg's not hurt.
Chris: Okay. To be fair, that's not a thing transhumanists are saying. Some are, and I am now, so. But, like, I certainly. You're right. Like, where the hell are my super dunk legs? Like, I need to be able to dunk a basketball.
Kayla: And also, you can't just. A regular person can't just be like, I think I would like to chop my arm off and stick a robot arm on it. You can't necessarily just go do that.
Chris: Sure I can. It's very dangerous. I'll probably bleed out.
Kayla: You can't go to your doctor and say, like, can you switch my arm out with the cyborg arm?
Chris: Maybe. Doctor Nick Rivera.
Kayla: But if you chopped your arm off, I think a transhumanist may argue that you shouldn't have to resort to such extreme measures of chopping your arm off in your kitchen and being rushed to the ER and forcing them to give you.
Chris: Right. You should be able to do that at Cedar Sinai, not just Doctor Nick.
Kayla: Yeah, exactly. If humans are defined by our ability, then to use and develop technology, is transhumanism simply just the next step of humans harnessing fire to advance our experience as a species?
Chris: Yes.
Kayla: Yes. I don't disagree.
Chris: It feels to me like it's less of a next step and more of, like, this is just a continuous spectrum.
Kayla: I mean, that's how I feel about, like, the fact that half my brain is on my phone. I don't feel bad about it. I don't feel like that's something wrong with me. I just feel like we use technology, like, that's what makes us human. That's what separates us, quote unquote, from other animals. Most other animals do nothing, develop with technology in this way. They can use rudimentary technology, like the crows with the sticks or whatever, but they're not doing what we're doing. We are defined by our relationship to the tech we build.
Chris: Yeah, I think I've heard terms. I want to say I've heard a term called the human datum. Datome. I don't know. Basically, humans, unlike other species, humans have this sort of. I don't know. I'm going to butcher this, I think. But this intangible, like, meta piece of our species that is like the knowledge and technology that evolves along with us and is inseparable from us. Like, it would be like saying, like, you know, like separating the human datum from humans would be like separating a bear's skull from a bear type of thing. Like, it's just part of our species and it's, like, outside of us, but it's also us, and it also evolves along with us.
Kayla: Yeah, believe that. That makes sense to me.
Chris: I found a, actually, I did find online here a pretty good definition that somebody else said for human data. Ohm. This guy at Columbia University defines it as a deeper way to quantify intelligent life based on the external information that a species generates, utilizes, propagates, and encodes in what we call technology everything from cave paintings and books to flash drives and cloud servers and the structures sustaining them. I think it's a good definition, and it's a useful concept to have around when we're talking about transhumanism.
Kayla: Cool.
Chris: Yeah, it kind of seems like. Well, yeah, duh.
Kayla: And of course, you know, thinkers throughout history have always speculated on our ability to enhance our species with technology. Like back in ancient Rome or whatever. They were probably thinking about, like, ooh. And there was people, philosophers, talking about this stuff. The modern iteration of transhumanism claims to largely spring from the eras of the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. So these were kind of all about major changes in culture and art and philosophy, science, math, economy, literature, scientific method, rational thinking, liberal democracy, humanism. Liberal democracy and humanism are big ones for transhumanists, and they are generally tech utopians.
Chris: Yeah, from what I understand, humanism is sort of like they trace some direct lineage there. They're like, we're better than those guys. But we owe them some stuff.
Kayla: Side note. Did you have a side note?
Chris: No, I was just gonna. I don't have a side note. I was just gonna ask if you think that, like, the ancient Romans, when they picture transhuman, like, cyborgs, is it like robot arms, but, like, they look like doric columns, you know, like, they're made of, like.
Kayla: No, it's like a. It's like Robocop, but he's wearing a centurion outfit.
Chris: Is that, like, not a comic or something? Because that sounds fucking rad as hell.
Kayla: Robocop. Side note. Some of the critics of transhumanism say that their philosophies can butt up pretty quickly to some pretty unsavory ideologies.
Chris: Maybe. I know the.
Kayla: What do you think? What do you think?
Chris: The same one that it always is.
Kayla: It always goes back to.
Chris: Starts with an e and ends with a. Eugenics.
Kayla: Eugenics. Eugenics. Obviously, transhumanists don't agree with this label and simply see themselves as, like, freely choosing to incorporate technology into the overall improvement of humanity rather than selectively weeding out individuals deemed inferior for various reasons. I can see both sides of the argument where. I can totally see where this is a eugenicist project, and I can totally see the argument of. I can see their argument of why it's not. But I think either way, transhumanists probably need to make sure they're constantly keeping this facet of their movement in check. Like, that needs to be a top priority. Like, we already know that slope is pretty slippery.
Kayla: And if they really aren't eugenicists, which I am not convinced that they are not, if they really are not, then, like, they should probably make sure that there are people with disabilities, like, in operational echelon of organizations, and, like, they're constantly talking about this because that shit sucks.
Chris: Yeah. And even if that slope weren't slippery, the spikes at the bottom are very deadly.
Kayla: Right.
Chris: As someone who might claim some, like, yeah, I like transhumanism. I am more than happy willing. Like, I don't think I would claim transhumanism if I weren't. If I didn't agree with, like, yeah, that needs to be, like, something that should be actively defended against. Like, that's. Somebody says, like, why aren't you guys eugenics? It can't be just like, we're not. That's misinformation.
Kayla: Right?
Chris: It has to be like, here are the reasons that it's not that. I've seen some of that.
Kayla: Sure.
Chris: I think there's definitely interpretations that can go either way. There's definitely people who are a little more like the libertarian surrogate Galtz Gulch people that you were talking about. And then I think there are people that are more like, okay, no, here's why. It's not. The two main defenses I've heard, which seem legitimate, but, like you said, need to be also very vigilante, are one. Is that like, well, we're not Nazis, because Nazis were totalitarian government, and we're talking about doing this in liberal democracies. So that'll totally make it okay, you guys. Which I agree is a necessary but not sufficient condition.
Kayla: Right.
Chris: The other condition is as if liberal.
Kayla: Democracies can't be fascist.
Chris: Right. That's. Yeah, that's more of a bonus, actually, if it's a liberal democracy. It's not even really like a. Yeah, I. The other thing I've heard is kind of what you were mentioning is, well, this isn't top down. This is. People are making their own choices. In fact, we'll talk about Nick Bostrom later. One of his big things is, well, if people are able to make their own choice along these lines, then everybody will choose to make people more intelligent. So he starts from choice based. This seems okay. You're just giving parents choice to have their kids not have horrible genetic diseases.
Kayla: They're all really into IVF for everybody. Like, the genetic selecting at the. At the point of, like, conception.
Chris: Right. And that kind of quickly gets into the. Like, it starts. Yeah, it starts with, I just don't want my kid to have diseases. And it kind of quickly gets into the. Like. And then everybody will choose to have ubermensches and, like, the. Like, there's some bad stuff. It, like, well, the scope creep. It's.
Kayla: Yeah, the scope creep of what is defined as, like, an illness or a disease is, like, real. That, you know, because people are talking about, like, okay, well, we can. You know, with IVF, you can do things like, you can test out for severe genetic disorders that will lead to a fetus not developing correctly or, like, you know, having such insufficient development that they will, like, not have a brain and things like that.
Chris: So be stillborn or, like, have.
Kayla: Yeah, you can weed out things like trisomy 18 or things like that. But then you start talking to people who want to try and find, like, an autism gene.
Chris: Right.
Kayla: And weed that out. And that is eugenic.
Chris: Those feel like two pretty easy boundaries on either side. The question is, like, what happens in the middle? Like, where do you draw that line? I don't think that they're like. With all kinds of stuff like this, you can't just draw a line, set it, and forget it. You just have to be constantly vigilant and treat it on a case by case basis. And it's. Yeah, it gets complicated and messy.
Kayla: We'll keep talking about it in future episodes, but.
Chris: Okay, well, just go watch Gattaca, I guess.
Kayla: Oh, God, I really liked that movie. Transhumanism in the modern sense truly emerged in the late 1950s and sixties. So that's when a biologist named Julian Huxley popularized the term in a 1957 essay. And then shortly after, in the 1960s, a professor of futurology began teaching new concepts of the human at the new school and started using the term transhuman to refer to people who were trying to transition to post human states.
Chris: He's a professor of futurology. Yeah, that's not real.
Kayla: Was at the time that professor would eventually change his name to FM 2030, which is badass.
Chris: Yeah, it sounds like. Speaking of Elon Musk, it sounds like his kid.
Kayla: It's cooler than his kid because it was self chosen. Just naming your kid something cool is.
Chris: Like, you're a try hard loser.
Kayla: Yeah. He changed his name to this for two reasons. One, his 100th birthday would be in 2030, and he hoped to live to see it.
Chris: Okay.
Kayla: And two, he viewed naming conventions as a collectivist relic of mankind's historic tribalism. So he wanted an individual's name and believed this signified his belief in the future. Like, we're all individuals. We don't have to be collectivist, which, like, I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about that, but it sounds.
Chris: Like he would land on the libertarian side of the divide.
Kayla: Yeah. Yes. Dope reason to change your name. I would like to have a conversation with him about what collectivism means to him and why one would believe collectivism is like something in humanity's past versus, like, something intrinsic to our humanity or something very much a part of our future.
Chris: From my time in the Ayn Rand community, I can say that libertarians use collectivism as a slur.
Kayla: Well, then if we didn't have that, we never would have gotten to space, so suck my dick.
Chris: I'm just saying.
Kayla: I know, I know. That's what I'm saying. I would like to have that conversation with this person. FM 20. Thirty's work and teachings in the transhumanist and futurist space are some of the most important or influential in laying the ground work for the philosophy of transhumanism. Unfortunately, FM 2030 did not live to see his 100th birthday. He died on July 8, 2000 from pancreatic cancer, man, and was placed in cryonic suspension. A little place called Alcor Life Extension foundation.
Chris: There's a really good podcast that did a series on them. I think it was called Cult or just weirn.
Kayla: He was actually the first person in the world to be vitrified.
Chris: Really?
Kayla: Yeah.
Chris: So before that, were just doing.
Kayla: Regular straight, quote unquote straight freezers, deep.
Chris: Freezing people with whatever, liquid nitrogen with.
Kayla: Yeah. He was the first person to be vitrified.
Chris: Wow.
Kayla: And so we. We went and visited one of those doers he was in.
Chris: Cool. Yeah, man. See, that's why that we're gonna keep going back to the, like, how cool that room was.
Kayla: It was so cool. Like I said, FM 20 thirtys pioneering work around transhumanism was extremely influential. So influential it would eventually reach a man named Max O'Connor.
Chris: Okay.
Kayla: Who would eventually call himself Max Moore. A philosophy student at St. Anne's College, Oxford, Max Moore was so intrigued by FM 2000 thirty's teachings, he went on to define the principles of transhumanism as they exist today, and would serve as the catalyst to organize the greater transhumanist movement from 1990 to what we have now.
Chris: So would you say he's like the father of the modern transhumanist?
Kayla: I would say one could make that argument.
Chris: Okay.
Kayla: Funnily enough, Max Moore would eventually serve as the president and CEO of Alcor life extension itself.
Chris: Oh, God.
Kayla: The call overseeing the company that housed the cryonaut who triggered him to delve into the world of transhumanism.
Chris: Oh my God. What a tangled web.
Kayla: I know. And that's just the start of Max Moore's journey. There's so much more to come after. Next time on cult or just weird humanity plus and the current state of transhumanist work and beyond.
Chris: This is Chris, this is Kayla, and this is trans podcast or just weird.