Welcome to podcast 167. Hey, so I'm just gonna keep going. Okay, so she's made fun of me like 17 times doing this. 

Okay, so welcome to podcast 167. We are not yet inclusive enough in construction, so let's have a discussion today. Stay with us.

Doo doo doo doo doo doo. Okay, bye. Bye.

This is the Elevate Construction Podcast, delivering remarkable content for workers, leaders, and companies in construction wanting to take their next step. Get ready to step out of your comfort zone with Jason Schroeder as he encourages you to do better, live a remarkable life, and expect more. Let's go.

Okay, welcome, everybody. Today, we're going to talk about your favorite subject, unconscious biases. So we're gonna have just a fantastic time today. 

This is super generally, you know, widely accepted topic that everyone's going to be super happy with. Please stay with us today. We got some great, great content. 

So I got my wife here with me. Say hi, Katie. Hello. 

So we've really, she's, she's coming to, no, I'm gonna cut that one. No, but seriously, no, but seriously, folks, we're gonna, we are going to talk about a very serious topic today. So first of all, hope you're, hope you're doing well. 

We hope you're gearing up getting ready for Christmas. Today's a Monday, and we hope that just everything's going well for you. So our topic, again, like I said, like we said, no, I said it because I said it, but is that we're going to talk about inclusion. 

We're going to talk about unconscious and unconscious bias. We're going to talk about diversity and some things that quite frankly are a little bit personal that have happened to me, and that Katie has helped coach me through, and that we would do well to know in construction because it's going to help us all out. So like I said, unconscious bias, inclusion, having appropriate behavior and construction because we just don't always have that. 

And by the way, I know I'm talking fast, but you just have to butt in here whenever you want. But in construction, we're just not great about it. And I've seen people and been around people who have been terminated, suspended, corrected, who've made inappropriate comments, and it has affected other people on the team. 

And there's no reason that we should have these things in our industry. We kind of have a bad name, I think, that we need to make better. We need to be more inclusive of women and minorities and all sorts of social classes. 

And so I can tell you a little bit about my story and some things to look out for. Anything you want to say? Okay. You actually have, you've been doing a lot of reading. 

What's the book that you just read, by the way? It wasn't at Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom. Yeah. So I was really inspired by some of the things that she read. 

This has just been on our mind lately. Obviously, there's stuff going on across the nation that will bring our minds more to it. But let me just start out by saying, if you're put off by what we're saying so far, please don't be, what we're going to do is give some advice that will help everyone be successful, that will improve construction, and isn't going to get political. 

Meaning, this isn't anything like that. It's just, how can we show up more professionally on a day to day basis in construction? So first of all, before we begin, I want to talk about what am I excited about? Right now, there are some clients that have scheduled some upcoming boot camps. We have a boot camp for scheduling, planning and scheduling. 

This is going to happen in February. Another boot camp for superintendents is going to be scheduled in March. And then some other boot camps actually that we're discussing, and I'm going to get some proposals out here pretty soon. 

So don't miss out if you have a need for training field engineers or supers or anybody in construction, workers, foremen, anyone, please let us know we can help. They're absolutely over the top. Fantastic. 

So two more things before we begin. One is a bit of feedback from one of our listeners. He said, Good morning, Jason. 

First, I want to say thank you for putting these podcasts out there for us. I'm a senior superintendent. And I started listening to your season one episodes, meaning episodes 40 through 50. 

I think you got started on 50. And I find them very interesting and very helpful. So he goes on to ask for some things that we're going to send him back by email, some content, some PDFs, very cool stuff. 

So thank you for you who sent out this, this feedback. This is a payday for us. So why don't you? Who was that? Well, I'm not gonna say his name.

Why? Well, because then I'm calling people out, then they'll stop giving me like nice comments. But they might like to hear their name. Okay, well, if you want to hear your name, please, please let me know. 

I'd kind of rather you prove me right. I'm just saying, like, if you're giving a like shout out, like thanks for the feedback, you might want to put a name with that. Okay, I'm on it. 

I don't know, just a suggestion. So Katie owns 51% of the business and she's always like, 51% coming at you. Anyway, it's so funny. 

All right. Are you done? Okay, good. I'll get on it, boss.

So what are some of the things that are changing in the construction industry? Well, it actually ties to today. It actually ties to today's podcast, is that, you know, we are we are going to be required to be more inclusive, to be more diverse, to be more professional in construction, and to be a very appropriately acting and very careful and safe industry and it was safe environments and safe companies. And so I think this perfectly ties in there, the days of, you know, the the salty superintendent, throwing down his or her hard hat, and let me be honest, it's his hard hat, throwing down his hard hat, cussing at people, you know, possibly even throwing out racial slurs, not being inclusive to women, things like that, those days are over, and they should be over, because we need to have as much diversity as we possibly can. 

And actually, let me just start out by repeating something I've said before, if you and this has actually been studied. If you go into a hospital, and you take a team of white male doctors, and then you take a team of doctors of male and female, all the same race, and then put together another team with which of a diverse team, male and female, different races, ethnicities, and put them in a team, and then you actually just mismatch every but not miss mix and match is what I meant to say, where you have male, female diversity, different races, different ethnicities, but also different positions, and you put them into an exercise, the more diverse team will always win statistically, they will always win. And that's why in construction, not only is that the right thing to do, not only do we need to take care of people, but also, it's the best thing for business. 

And I know that sounds kind of cold, but I'm really wanting to relate it to something that matters to everybody listening to these podcasts. Diversity, inclusion, these things are key to our success. They're key to our success. 

So here's our conflict. You have unconscious biases. Is that how you say it? I don't think so.

Well, what would you bias whatever? Well, I yeah, no, don't look it up. Yeah. Okay. 

So well, yeah. I do a podcast every day. I can't research every little. 

Yes, I can. Okay, what is it then? Let me know. I'll talk while you waste time. 

So you have you have unconscious, you have an unconscious bias, and you need to be more aware and you need to be more aware, because it's going to help you and it's going to do the right thing for people because at the end of the day, how do you say it? Yeah, so how does it say it? Yeah. Bias is just not sees. Like that was weird. 

Well, yeah, I almost had a dad joke. What if you have a bias on the ocean? That's why I see. People just turn off. 

Okay, that's enough. I Yeah, we're gonna go. All right. 

So if you have unconscious bias is Katie, and you need you then you need to become more aware because it will benefit your career and it's the right thing to do. I think I already said that. But anyway, so we're going to tell you a little story without saying names are getting too in depth. 

Do you want to kick off my, my East Coast story? You're like, no, no. Sure. Well, yeah, go ahead. 

I tell it tell us. No, please. Don't don't remind. 

Yeah, don't get too specific. Okay, well, there was a field engineer who had made some comments about different things that were inappropriate. And when Jason was out as some sort of like training position, I don't know, we were out in DC. 

This particular individual happened to say a couple of different remarks while Jason was present. One of which Jason laughed at. I think the second of which you corrected. 

But okay, but so the first time he made a comment about someone's appearance, I think. I think so. Yeah. 

And then the second time, it was a female. Yes. And then the second time, I think he said it was it was it was something vulgar. 

Yeah. So when he said the vulgar thing, so the first time when the appearance was commented on, Jason just laughed. And the second time, when he said something vulgar about this girl, a woman who was also a field engineer, I think Jason, you know, kind of scolded this person. 

But the entire situation was overheard by. By another superintendent. And it was and I didn't handle it appropriately. 

I mean, situations like that need to be reported. They need to be reported to HR. They need to be dealt with immediately. 

And I kind of like was like, hey, you know, and then I'm like, no, no, no, you know, stop not reporting it, not protecting the innocent, right? So I'm totally at fault here and and I'm being personal and open. Well, and she was present for the remarks. Yeah.

And the other thing that kind of made it a tricky situation was Jason was friends with this individual. Yeah. So I had hired him. 

Right. And so there was this, I don't know, kind of a blurred line that maybe you didn't feel like you wanted to be like come down on him or, you know, I don't know. Go ahead. 

No, I think that's totally appropriate anyway. So so why don't you go ahead and finish the story. Yeah.

So, um, how is horrible is such a I'm getting, I'm getting KTSD about the situation. So he had actually flown home back to Phoenix for a while. And the superintendent basically said, I want to see you on Monday. 

So he was a director. But anyway, go ahead. Well, you said superintendent. 

Well, okay. So anyway, the director called me and was like, I want to talk to, I want to talk to you. But so I'll tell you that then you tell, then you can say like the where were we? How did it feel? So so here's the deal. 

I dropped him off. We're so we're in DC. He's come back now to DC. 

He had flown home for the weekend. I was in DC by myself with four or five kids. We had five, we had five kids at the time. 

And our oldest was probably seven. And anyways, uh, we only had the one car. So I dropped him off at the headquarters or office or whatever it was. 

And I go to target and spend a ton of money. It was Thanksgiving on, um, not Thanksgiving, it was Halloween. So on Halloween costumes, because we were, you know, we were out in Washington and we didn't have any costumes. 

So we spent all this money and just playing all afternoon and we pick him up only to find out that he has been suspended without pay for four weeks. And that this particular person wanted to have him fired, but he was kind of no, no, I can actually, so the other person got fired. I was originally going to be suspended for five days, but because I didn't get it, it was changed from five days to 20 days.

Because literally I, when I'm in the interview, and this was the, the impactful moment. And I'd really like your comments on how you saw me changed from being ignorant, ignorant, no, no, no, no, but ignorant to like my eyes being open as this guy's talking to me, as I'm looking back to it, I did not get it. I didn't understand what I did. 

I'm like, I told him to stop. I didn't get that it was my job to report it to HR to take it all the way, to be willing to fire on myself, to protect, to protect her and her comments, or not her comments, but her feelings and, and her wellbeing, her mental and physical wellbeing on a project site. I just didn't get it. 

So I'm in there kind of arguing how I didn't do anything wrong. And he, like, I remember the moment where he did this. And man, I hated that guy for years, but now I kind of wish that we could like do a little reunion and I could give him a hug because he changed my life. 

But I remember him looking down at the paper and scratching out. He had pre-written down five days suspension. He scratched it down and wrote 20. 

And that was devastating because for us back then, you know, and it might not seem like a lot, but like that was $8,500 back then with our small family. That's, and we, that's when we started racking up credit card debt again. I mean, that was, that was a horrible, horrible experience. 

But the, the problem is, is I didn't get it. I, and I'm not using this as an excuse, but, you know, back in California and in the area where I grew up, you know, construction workers just joked about sex and, and girls and, and, you know, stupid things. And they were super inappropriate. 

And, and I just got used to it and numb quite frankly, and it just wasn't a big deal to me. And I remember, and I want you to take this story from here, please Kate. But the one thing I do want to mention is that, uh, I said, well, I've been working for years and acting the same way and nobody's ever said anything to me. 

So like, what's going on? And he's like, well, actually there's a lot of people even here that wouldn't be willing or comfortable have to have this conversation that I'm having. It doesn't mean that we don't have to do the right thing right now. And that's always stuck with me.

He was brave enough to stand up for what was right, even though nobody else was, was doing that. And I needed to be corrected. And I'm, it was a super impactful moment for me. 

So can you kind of describe, like from there on after what happened and like explain what you saw in me, even for that month, you know, Oh gosh. Well, first, first I think we have this like really dark cloud for those four weeks where he was at home and not working and obviously not collecting a paycheck. And it was rough. 

I mean, as rough as you can imagine, to unexpectedly not have a paycheck. And definitely there was that, that cycle of, I don't even know what you'd call it where it was, you know, disbelief and anger and grief and feeling like you'd let your family down and, you know, not feeling like you're not a good provider. And then, you know, different people reaching out to you and booing you up. 

And, and that's interesting. I don't remember that. I'm, I'm sure that happened. 

I was just so dark. I didn't remember. Sorry.

And you, um, yeah, you actually looked into going to other companies, which would have been a mistake at the time. It would have been kind of running away from, from the problem and the situation. And instead you went back to work and you faced it. 

Um, and there, you know, there was a stigma kind of, I mean, a lot of different people knew about it. And so it wasn't like this quiet thing, even though it happened on the East coast and now you were back in Phoenix. Um, so it was, it was a really hard time, but also a tremendous time for like growth and change. 

And pretty much steadily since then have you become, in my opinion, an advocate for, um, you know, for, for just doing the right thing. And I feel like there's still room to grow. Like, I'm just looking at you, like, oh, you could be better.

We all have room to grow. Exactly. But, but that you have really come a long way and there, what else? No, I, I appreciate that. 

And I appreciate the comment that I've come a long way because it matters a lot to me. And what, what was really surprising to me is that I just didn't know what I didn't know. And again, this is pretty personal stuff. 

So we're being vulnerable. At the end of the day, this is meant to help. You know, talking about this story is meant to help.

I don't think that I'm hurting anybody or violating any confidentiality when I say this happened to me generally. The point of the matter is, is that we will all do well to, by way of priority, as I'm going through these, number one, protect innocent people, make sure that nobody is ever discriminated. And I wasn't, just to be clear, this was me within, this was me inappropriately tolerating something that could be considered harassment. 

I've never had a problem with discrimination, but it's about preventing harassment, discrimination, lack of equality, or unconscious biases. Right. And so that's, and then the third goal after all those are done is there's no reason somebody should have to go through that pain.

Why not learn now? Why not learn from this podcast to have better behavior, right? I remember we were, were we trick or treating before or after this happened? Um, after, after it was that same evening. Yeah. So I remember the feeling in my gut and just the negativity and the horror. 

Like if somebody asked me to just to describe hell, I would describe the feeling that I had while I'm like faking, trick or treating with my kids after this happened. And then driving home, it took us four days, four days in a vehicle to drive home. Oh my gosh, I feel so bad for you.

Sometimes when I look back, I'm like, Ooh, she stayed. That's kind of a surprise. I wouldn't I wouldn't have called that one anyway.

Well, and the thing about Jason is when he's in a funk, like it's so hard to like, I have to try so hard to pull him out of it. So if you can just imagine a road trip, um, in a vehicle rented by your employer using the employee, like gas card and knowing that every, every dollar we spend basically is going on this company property and they've just suspended you and the hotels that you're staying at, the company is paying for it. It was just just really awkward situation.

And then on top of that, Jason's in a terrible mood for four days. We've got five kids in the car. We're basically like eating so much Halloween candy.

Like it was just a nightmare. It was something you'd see in the movie. Yeah, it was, it was slowly garbage. 

So man, but you know, at the end of the day, to Katie's point, like it has, it triggered my mind to be in such a better spot. If there are people that need to be corrected or terminated, I have zero fear of doing so because I know the benefit that it had on me to go through such a gut wrenching experience and to get my mind right. I don't have any issues standing up for things to protect the innocent or do whatever, you know, make sure that I'm advocating proper behavior when the time comes because I'm just used to it. 

I've seen it. I seen, I've seen what it looks like now. And what again, I just want to make the point is that you don't know what you don't know and that's not an excuse. 

And that's again why we're doing this podcast because there isn't any excuse just because we grew up some place just because it's been the industry norm just because everybody does it doesn't mean that we should do it at all. And as I'm learning and I'm, and this is kind of funny, but I don't want you to take it like funny, like, oh, you know, jovially. But the first real time that I learned about diversity was from a Netflix Taylor Swift special. 

My wife told me, but I never believed her the first time, but like the first time I learned like truly like had a heart connection with diversity and with like women's rights and things like that was when I was watching this thinking Taylor Swift special, like that's ridiculous. That's absolutely ridiculous. Like what are we doing that? That was the first connection moment that I had. 

Do you remember after I, I saw that show and I came back and I'm like, all changed. Remember that? Anyway, so my point is, um, my point is, is that we have to be more aware of these situations. We have to know what we're dealing with. 

We have to know that there are things that we don't know. We have to know that we have unconscious biases because there are some problems that happen. And if you think of any K let me know, but in construction specifically, people make inappropriate jokes all the time. 

There are situations where people are legitimately harassed. I've, I've seen it. And when I saw it, I corrected it. 

I've seen those things. And I do remember back in the day when I saw something like that and I didn't correct it and I feel ashamed of those situations. There are situations and I've personally never seen this in person. 

I've seen offensive content on social media, but there are people and I've heard of things like this happening where they're discriminated against. And the one thing that I see over and over and over is people posting offensive content on social media, whether it's a political post or a racist post or, or a religiously, um, insensitive post or whatever, they, sometimes they accidentally don't post it on their own social media. They posted on some kind of communication chat at work, or they posted on their social media account. 

And then it gets back to the main company and they get terminated. I see that over and over and over and over again, people getting in trouble for that. And that's not even the worst part, the worst part is that people are being, are, are, are around that kind of content, might not feel welcome. 

I know of, uh, I don't know. I corrected it again. I want to be clear about that. 

I don't ever, you know, sweep things under the rug, but I've seen leaders not listen to con, to complaints, to concerns. I've seen people not take the opinions of women and, and blow them off. And immediately I stand up in the meeting. 

I'm like, I am not okay with this. And what we need to do is make sure that none of these problems create a harassing or uncomfortable environment. We need to make sure that it never prevents somebody from reaching their full potential and being promoted. 

And we need to make sure that we're protecting everybody because of respect for people. Have, have you anything you want to add to that list of things that you've commonly seen? I mean, you've been in construction. What do you just think I'm doing such a good job? That's pretty over the top. 

Yeah. So any thoughts so far? No, well, I would say a different thought is that if everyone on your team looks like you, then you may have that unconscious bias about who's being hired and not seeking out a more diverse skill set group. You should cut that.

No, I think. Well, it was a really good point because when you're around, when you're around people that think like you do, they're not going to call you out. Right. 

And I'll be honest. It's not just about calling you out. They're not going to have any like, okay, they're not going to see the problem, right? Well, that's really not what I was going to say. 

Okay, so let me keep interrupting. What I was really trained to say is that if, if it's just the same, you know, group of people, then you're not going to get any like diverse opinions or experiences. And that's that, you know, kind of, I don't know, I'm not saying I'm not just like making a broad assumption here. 

I'm just saying like the more diverse your group is, then you have, you know, all of these different backgrounds that you can pull from, which I think can be problematic in construction management. Well, it's hard to, it's hard, right? Yeah, it's so here's one example that I can give based on what you're talking about is like, let's say that I'm in a leadership position, and I get the diversity of thought. And somebody says, well, hey, we need to be safer and more inclusive here. 

Or we need to step up our protocols here. You know, even just stuff like COVID-19, right? If you get different opinions, and you and instead of just a couple of opinions inside your group, let's say you get a diverse amount of opinions. Maybe you maybe you have healthcare workers, maybe you have somebody who has, you know, an older high risk mother or father at home or whatever, they're going to encourage you to be more safe, right? And then when they say, hey, we should step up our game, that's uncomfortable, because now you as a leader have to deal with that, right? Or if we're talking about diverse opinions, then we have to actually deal with the fact that discrimination is a real thing. 

And we have to take steps against it. Or when we're dealing with with women in construction, we have to deal with the fact that that is a real thing. And we have to go intentionally and make sure that we are creating opportunities for everybody in construction. 

And that's uncomfortable. It takes more work. I'm not saying it's, let me just say this. 

And so that's why I think that that leaders can be or have been in the past hesitant to your point to get those opinions, because it puts them outside of their comfort zone, when really the way they can look at it is, yeah, okay, this might be a little bit extra work, but it's going to make us better. Right. So, okay, totally love it. 

Um, and so those are the things that we're really wanting to prevent. We don't want situations anymore like this, where people are harassed or discriminated against, or they're not listened to. You know, another thing is, um, I said one, and this is probably the bigger issue is that people don't speak up. 

And I, I, I sent out a quote a while back that said, the people in your organization that don't speak up are the, are the most danger. I can't remember how to put it, but the most danger. No, I said the most dangerous people in your organization are the ones that don't speak up. 

And what I didn't just mean safety, I didn't just mean from a cost or quality standpoint. I meant those are the people that don't speak up when somebody is harassed, when somebody is, you know, discriminated against or when somebody's safety is in jeopardy or when somebody isn't falling, following COVID-19 precautions. And in my mind, that's why police departments have problems that they do because people aren't speaking up and holding each other accountable.

That's why children and women, you know, are molested and abused because there's somebody that knew about it and they didn't speak up. And I really feel like that's our problem. And if we could learn to speak up more and stand up for what's right and have a lower tolerance for these types of things, I really think we could make some progress. 

Any thoughts on that, Katie? Because I think what we need to do on this podcast is if somebody says, okay, well, I see that this is happening. What do I do? What would we say that we want them to do tomorrow? Like it was just one action. Okay. 

Well, the first thing I would say is that I think sometimes it's easy to dismiss people when they get loud or passionate. And you kind of want to say, you know, I'm not going to speak to you until you stop yelling or until you are more respectful toward me. And I think it's okay to just acknowledge that sometimes people are upset and you know, you've triggered something in them and to not just dismiss them because they're outside of what you deem is emotionally appropriate. 

So that's the first thing. And the second thing is to just, you know, if somebody took the time to speak to you, then to honor that by respecting and listening and not, not just ignoring it and not just saying, oh, we'll handle it or we'll take care of it, follow up. And because it's, it's hard to speak up when you've been, you know, victimized or mistreated or whatever. 

It is hard to, to come forward with that. And I, I don't know what else. Well, I was just lost in thought thinking about what you're saying, because I just said speak up. 

But if somebody has gained the courage to speak up, then the next step, the only thing, the only thing worse than would be that somebody speaks up and then they're not listened to. And we really, like you said, did you say honor or respect it? You need to honor that by taking it seriously. And I would say that I really do feel like your answer has gotten to the heart of it is that we, 90% of the time we'll handle it the wrong way. 

And that 90% is when we're like, okay, we'll see if it happens again. Give somebody a verbal warning. Um, you know, sweep it under the rug, you know, try it.

And I do say, try, you know, I'm going to use that word, try to, you know, smooth things over when what we really should have done was contacted people that can really help with the situation. You know, human resources is not some kind of demonic department over here on the side that, that, you know, should never be contacted. And if they're around, we're in trouble. 

They're there to help the legal team on in the company is there to help your appointed EEO officers are there to help your supervisors are there to help. And there's really no reason that we should be dealing with these situations ourselves. We need to widen our circle with the right people. 

And I do want to be clear, not widen our circle with the wrong people. Right. And and really incentivize people to speak up and create a safe environment.

Because probably now that I'm thinking about what you say, Katie, people don't speak up probably because they know it's not a safe environment. Right. So, so that would be one thing that you can absolutely do. 

And I just want to make that make that point one more time. You and me, a couple years ago, maybe I even do it now. And most of the people in construction, when a situation like that, it happens, somebody is harassed, a joke is made, a comment is made, an inappropriate post is made, or, you know, a decision is made about somebody. 

And, and we hear about it, 90% of the time, we're going to handle it the wrong way up until now, because we don't take it seriously enough. And so I would say in those situations, my default has been recently, after learning about these things and being more inclusive and being more aware is to always bring in the people that know, always tell human resources, always tell the legal department, always tell my, my, my supervisor, and I'll even tell the person, Hey, we need to go call them together. But we are going to have this conversation. 

And in fact, I, let me just say something that's, that's happened to me, something that I've noticed is that my supervisors have been very praise were praising of that behavior. And they always say of late, like I said, past five, six years, man, Jason is always telling us stuff, giving us the heads up, helping us deal with situations properly, looping us in when we need to do terminations, looping us in with something happens that's questionable, asking us about COVID-19 precautions. You really want to have that kind of relationship with the people that know how to deal with these situations and transparency and listening. 

I don't know if you have any comments about listening, maybe you already covered them, but transparency and listening and getting the right help in my mind are key. And so interrupt me if you want to, Katie, but the challenge that I would have, or, or let me go back to the principle, and I would like you to, so you've seen this in me a couple times, there have been times where I've even taught my kids like, hey, where I'm really firm about this political belief or this belief about this system in society or this group of people or this or that. And Katie, you used to be like, Jason, come on, that's kind of a, and I really don't think they were ever racist.

And I don't think they were ever sexist, but I was very intolerant of certain cultural type things. Right. And I was really, really adamant and you would just start to get at me and like, like nip at me and like be mean. 

I'm just kidding. And it started to change and talk about this. If you want, when I went to Tony Robbins and he talks to you about getting rid of your fear, when I came back, I just didn't feel the same way. 

And so I feel like most of the problems that we have with discrimination or sexism or harassment is fear based or power based, right? But most of it comes from fear, right? Well, I don't know. I mean, what, what did you learn at Tony Robbins that helped you to not be fear based? I don't. Well, like this one, like this, if there's a group of people and I'm like, Ooh, they're going to do something stupid. 

I feel so stupid even saying it, but like, they're going to take my home or they're going to vote or they're going to do this or that, or they're going to steal my wife because they're better looking, you know, like any of those things don't even go like, like, um, you know, all of the, the, Ooh, I don't know about this group of people comes from fear. You know, I'm thinking about Frankenstein right now. You know what I mean? I'm, I used to be the guy with a pitchfork.

Like, I don't understand this thing. So I'm going to come at you with a pitchfork. So anyway, any thoughts with that? Um, probably just thinking back to stuff that Brene Brown has written about that, you know, power is not, it's not finite.

There's not one set amount of power. There's enough, you know, space and there's, there's, we don't have to have a scarcity mindset, right? Right. Most of the things we fear are going to happen are going to happen. 

And there's plenty of money in space, like you said, and opportunities for everybody. And so let me just go on a rant there and you please interrupt me and kick me on the scene. But like, I remember when Hensel Phelps and I'll mention their name because they've done such a good job where they said, we're going to intentionally hire women. 

And I remember, I don't, I don't, I think I handled it poorly back in the day and I'm going to blame it on my upbringing, not me, but like, I'm like, well, wait a minute, what, that doesn't create equal opportunity for us guys. Does that mean you're just going to take my jobs? Right. So I'm not acting right out of fear because I live in a scarcity mindset. 

And the other day I saw a post that said, Hensel Phelps is the number one female employer in the United States. And I, you know, I don't even work there anymore, but I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so proud. Like their intentionality behind this and constant messaging. 

And even in the, even in the face of all of us white males that were like, you know, maybe a little bit disgruntled. No, no, not maybe a little bit like disgruntled that somebody could for once, you know, like, um, you know, have preferential treatment or even equal treatment is me. Right.

In the face of that, they did it and now look what they've accomplished. And I just, when you, I like what you always say, and hopefully you can expand on it. I'm not doing a good job of kicking the ball over your side of the court, but like you said, it doesn't cost me anything.

Right. It doesn't cost me. It doesn't, that's probably what we should talk about and leave with is it doesn't, anybody, any of you listening, it doesn't cost you anything to help protected classes, to help women, to help people on their journeys.

Because there are people who don't have the same privileges as we do. Any thoughts? Yeah. Well, it doesn't cost you anything to listen. 

Yeah. Maybe a bit of time. Yeah. 

I guess you'd have to consider what, what it is you're protecting by allowing someone to be, you know, mistreated or looking the other way. You know, are you protecting your buddy? Are you protecting yourself or are you protecting your own career? Right. But at the end of the day, the diversity makes a company better. 

The diversity gets more work. The diversity makes the team work. The diversity creates more jobs. 

Right. And there's no, that's what I'm saying. Like it, for anybody listening, like it doesn't cost us anything. 

So if you get the chance and I'll just go ahead and say it, I don't think I'll get in trouble. I don't even care. But if you have a chance to support a woman who in a lot of cases can be, maybe they are, maybe they're not, but, but can be and probably are more qualified for the position than we think and completely deserves it.

It doesn't cost you anything to support them. It doesn't cost you anything to help somebody who might be from a different economic status. It doesn't cost us anything to help somebody from a different, different ethnicity. 

It doesn't cost us anything to help somebody and to make, make room for them and their religious practices at work. I remember, you remember one of my good buddies at that one project, we made time throughout the week for him to go do his prayers. Right. 

And it was it three times a day or five times a day? I think, I think it was three times throughout the workday and it just doesn't cost us anything to do that, but it will cost us everything if we don't. And so I just, the principle here is, is that, you know, a lack of diversity and inclusion comes from fear. And to combat that we need to be more aware and to be more aware, we need to be open. 

So wait, what does that mean though? It comes from fear. I guess it just don't feel like you've made that clear. Well, I just did. 

I said fear of what, of how it's going to affect you. So is that selfishness. Don't make it. 

Yeah. No, I don't mean you, although I do. I just meant rhetorically. 

When you say fear, do you mean selfishness or do you mean greed? I mean fear. Okay. So let's take the female example. 

So they're like, okay, we're going to start giving preferential treatment to women in construction. Oh, what are you doing taking my job? I fear what that will do for me. So yeah, it is selfishness, right? But let's take political parties in the United States, right? There, everyone's fighting and acting stupidly because everyone's afraid that if you, if you elect this person in office, all of a sudden, you know, A, B and C are going to happen and we are fearful about what it's going to do to affect us. 

Or if this party's elected, we're in fear that they're going to do dot dot dot that's going to affect our freedoms. Whatever it is, we're not having conversations because we're demonizing the enemy, which they aren't really the enemy. They're just a different perspective, right? And based on that fear, just like you, I can't believe I almost said that. 

Just like in Star Wars, you know, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate. I've lost here anyway, but like, that's what I'm saying. So use whatever word you want, can you? Okay, well, I just, I just felt like it was unclear because like nobody walks around saying, I'm scared. 

I just wanted to be clear. What, what, well, okay, so like, there's two motivations. If there's some salty old, you know, male chauvinist, misogynistic superintendent that goes around grabbing girls legs and saying inappropriate comments, that's probably a different problem. 

That's probably, that's not probably, that's, that's a different problem. That's, that's a lack of sense, sensitivity. That's a lack of self-control. 

That's, you know, maybe a form of perversion, right? But if we are attempting to put down protected classes or women or anybody else who's different from us, my point is it could be a fear of the difference. It could be the fear of something different and a fear of loss of what will that mean for me because it will affect my world. So yeah, it's self lessness. 

Does that make sense? Sure. Okay. So what's, what's the, um, what's that? What's the, how do you combat it? Well, yeah.

Well, I would say go to Tony Robbins. But you know, no, well, once, once I realized that there was so, but here's a good point. Somebody said, and you, you told me about that book.

So Katie gave me this great book called, uh, what was the, uh, the confidence gap. And they, I think in the book, I'm pretty, I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm certain in the book, he, there was a story where somebody said, put salt in, in a cup and then, and then taste it. What did that salt do? It, well, it made the water bad, you know, it's, it's ruined and then put the salt in the lake and what happened to the lake water, you know, and I'm assuming it's pretty clean water, but the person said, well, it tastes just like it did before.

The point was if you give something space, right? So with our fears, if we are so focused on them, that that's all we're dealing with every day, then it's going to taste pretty salty. But if we give our fears, say, Hey, you can have this space in my, my life over here, you go over there, but I'm not focused on you, right? Then we can have a wide enough space and rechannel that fear to energy and to better pursuits. So it's not exactly the same thing, but I would also say that once we realize that there's plenty in this world to go around and that we're not in a scarcity mindset, also your fear becomes smaller. 

Not only does it have a wider space, but it becomes less. And we can focus on the opportunities and building each other up and the opportunities that we have to build each other up instead of the possible negatives. And so what I would say is, um, there's, I think your concept that you taught me of, we don't live in the scarcity mindset is the key. 

I think we have to realize that we're only going to have more jobs, more money, more success, better teams, better everything, the more diverse and the more space we give to other people and differing, differing types of thought. Is that, what do you think? Yeah. I put you on the spot. 

No, I think that's, I think that's accurate. Okay. Go ahead. 

No, no, you don't have any, I feel like everyone's going to be like, he talks so much. And what's your podcast? Okay. Thank you. 

I'm just kidding. So let's go back to this. A lack of diversity as Katie just sanctioning agreed with a hundred percent lack of diversity inclusion comes from fear. 

We have to be more aware. We are more aware when we're more open. Right. 

And we, and when we ask for help, when we need to, and when we learn, we need to take these trainings and these things that we hear about seriously. And we need to stop. Um, now if there's inappropriate content on Facebook, like I, I block people all the time, but we can't metaphorically just block out or unfriend people on Facebook, the Facebook of life, when they don't share the same opinion. 

We need to be able to hear those other differing types of opinions and bring around us more diverse opinions so that we can be more well-rounded and have better insights to what's really going on, because usually it's not the right or the left or the yin and the yang. Usually the truth lies somewhere in the middle and the better we come closer together, the better off we're going to be. And the measure of success, I think with situations is it doesn't matter if I think it was offensive or if I think it was unsafe. 

It doesn't matter if I think that if it was harassing or if I think it was sexually harassing or discrimination or if I thought or if I, I, I, we need to ask ourselves what did they think? Could it be harassing baby behavior or inappropriate behavior or unwelcome behavior to somebody else? And when that occurs, we need to trust the system because everything good thrives in transparency and in the light and nothing. And I need your backup here on this. Like nothing ever was solved by, by sweeping it under the rug. 

Nothing was ever solved by keeping it in the darkness. Nothing was ever solved by keeping it behind the closed doors. Nothing was ever solved by, by not telling somebody, you know what I mean? We need to trust the process and, and make sure that we're keeping everything out and open and in the light, is my opinion. 

And the current condition is we just don't do that and we don't do that in construction and it's, and it's hurting us. And so my challenge, and I'm going to signpost this for you, Katie, I would like you to give any, any kind of advice to anybody listening after I give a couple of these. When you I, in fact, Report Leadership International does a really nice diversity training. 

I'm going to pay for that this year in 2021, any diversity training that I can get my hands on, I'm going to do it. And I would recommend to you when you get that from your company or HR or whatever, pay attention to it. And in some cases, you might even need to run your team through it.

So you're more inclusive. I would encourage you to be more open minded to, to quiet your fears and not focus on it and focus on opportunity and inclusion and understand that life is about respect. It's not about fighting with other people.

It's not about, you know, feeling heard. It's about listening first and respecting other people. And so what advice, Katie, would you give or should we give to anybody listening to this podcast so that they can take their next step? I would say that when you're building a team, reach out for diversity and try and get different opinions to complement, you know, the work that you're doing.

And let me give you the definition of unconscious bias or biases. Bias is a prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person or group, compared with another, usually in a way that's considered to be unfair. Biases may be held by an individual group or institution and can have negative or positive consequences. 

And so unconscious biases are, can be social stereotypes about certain groups of people that individuals form outside of their own conscious awareness. And I know this is true. And everyone holds unconscious beliefs about various social or identity groups. 

And these biases stem from one's tendency to organize social worlds by categorizing. And I want to give an example of that, of an unconscious bias. Well, so I have I have an unconscious bias about men who don't work. 

Like, I hope nobody doesn't have a job. If there's a man who doesn't work, like I was taught and I was brainwashed, I would literally brainwash by my dad. If I didn't work hard, I wasn't loved. 

So if I see a male not super worried about having work, like I automatically think they're a piece of beep. Like, I did my own beep. I loathe people like that. 

And that's, but that's a conscious bias now, but it used to be one. No, no, no, no, hold on. I'm fixing it.

Anyway, but it was an unconscious bias until I realized it. Okay. I realized I have a problem with males that don't work and support their families. 

And, but there might be disability there, there might be some mental health issues there. There might be a lot of things. I'm not being charitable and kind by just automatically having a bias. 

And what does it say over here? Prejudice in favor or against one thing. So I, Jason Schroeder have had in the past, a severe prejudice against a person, a male that does not work and support his family. Yeah. 

Well, I'm just looking at your notes here and you can have, um, so it's listing characteristics that are subject to bias things like age. So do you see that at work? People that are discriminatory because somebody is a crusty old superintendent. I mean, I've never heard you say that before, but I call him salty, but, but, but honestly, there is there. 

Yeah. So are you, are you biased against? No, I'm not biased against all people. No, I'm just checking. 

What I'm saying though is that the automatic assumption is if somebody is older and has the lower position, oh, they're not capable or they're not smart enough or they need to be retired or whatever. And that's just not true. You know what I mean? And that's something that's, that's really easy to get gender. 

We've already, here, I'm sending you something. No, you're fine. But so what about a sexual orientation or religion? Have you ever seen that? So it's a, that's a huge one. 

You know, honestly, really a hundred percent religion or sexual orientation? Uh, well, I've seen more with the sexual orientation, you know, like, and just so you know, Katie and I are super, super, super religious. And, and it didn't, no, we are like, we're so righteous. I'm just kidding. 

We're not righteous. We got all kinds of problems, but like we're super, super churchy, but we have so much space for understanding love and acceptance of anybody of different sexual orientations or thoughts or, or persuasions or whatever. I mean, I don't know where I, I don't know if you taught me that, or if I learned it by growing up in California or whatever, but like, I hold, um, my religious beliefs comfortably at the same time as I accept 100% and love 100% without any reservations, uh, people that might be homosexual, people that might be bisexual or, or any of the other classifications, I have zero issue with that. 

And I just, I just grew up that way. I don't know why it's just not a big deal to me, but I've seen it over and over and people use the term like, oh, they're gay or the, this is happening or, you know, I'm not even going to say some of the offensive words and it's like, why is this a big deal? I don't understand. And there's also assumptions that if you're that way, you can't be the tough guy in construction. 

And so I don't see it a lot with religion. I've seen it a lot with religions that are more visual. You know, I talked about my friend who prays throughout the week and, um, you know, we made lots of space or just every, every space we could imagine for him and asked about it. 

I've, I've been to mosque with him. Like it's just absolutely fantastic, but I, I don't see a lot about religion, but I do see a lot of, um, bias and quite frankly, prejudice against sexual orientation in construction. And that shouldn't be the case.

You know, whether somebody believes it or not, see, that's the thing that I think people get tripped up on. Even if somebody doesn't believe in that, it doesn't, that doesn't mean anything in my mind when it, when it comes to acceptance and love and understanding and kindness and being a part of their world and being interested in who they are. I just don't think they're the same thing. 

I don't think you have to tie those things together. I don't violate any of my religious beliefs by accepting everybody who they are. It's just, it's not a problem for me.

Well, another, so one that was on here and when that was on my phone, when I was looking at it earlier, so weight is on here and on my phone earlier, it was, um, like physical appearance, like tattoos or like hair or grooming or stuff like that. So what do you think about that? I, it, weight is a huge one, you know, automatically, and you guys are going to get me in trouble and people listening. But if, you know, the unconscious biases, if they're overweight, they're lazy, or if they're overweight, they're slobs or, you know, and that's, again, just just not the case. 

People are all, are genetically different. You know what I mean? Like, and, but I'm telling you, like when you brought up weight, I didn't notice here, in here before, huge, huge prejudice against that in construction. Okay. 

What about, what about, um, like grooming or tattoos? Tattoos. Yeah. You automatically assume that they're, you know, they got out of jail and that you can't go talk to them. 

No, I'm serious. Like it's that rough exterior. And that's what we're doing at Elevate. 

This is not a sales pitch, but that's what we're doing at Elevate Construction is saying, like, no matter where, what you are, where you are, or what you look like, you can make it the entire distance. Right. So I'm like, Ooh, I made it all the way to director, but I'm a white male, you know, and I don't have tattoos and I'm not genetically overweight and I don't have any of these problems. 

So like, Ooh, you know, good job, Jason. Like you had it. Yeah.

Yeah. And the point is when, in my mind, when everybody can make it to the positions that I've made it to, maybe not with the same amount of ease, but I would hope it would be that way. But with the same amount of possibility, that's when I think we've gotten past this.

Honestly, I mean, in construction, let's just talk about this real quick. How many, how many women executives do we see in, in construction? How many, you know, what do you call that? How many executives do we see of different races? Do we see how many homosexuals that it's known that they're that way? Do we see it as executives? No, we see a bunch of white males in that. People are going to stop listening to the podcast, but I'm just going to say that's a problem. 

I mean, if it happened accidentally, we're in an equal opportunity here and just people didn't want to do that. Then I guess, but I doubt that's the case. I think the case is that it's not as easy for them to make it to those levels of leadership. 

And that is a problem. And that is going to hinder our progress in construction. And it's not respecting people. 

And so I'm glad you brought that up. You know, because an unconscious bias is far more prevalent than conscious, prejudice, and often incompatible with one's conscious values, meaning we could be doing it and we don't even know it, right? Certain scenarios can activate unconscious attitudes and beliefs. For example, biases may be more prevalent when multitasking or working under time pressure. 

The bottom line is we just don't recognize when this is happening. And the key is we need a sensitivity to it. We need to see that there's a gap. 

We need to be aware. We need to be open and we need to get more and more training. And I really think that's the key.

So anything else you want? This has been fun. We have done this part. I bet you this is over an hour.

I apologize. Yeah, you've been talking so much. Anyway, so I just want you to know Katie's just in awe of the things that I'm saying over here. 

I haven't been interrupting her. Anything else you want to say? I think what I would say is I just want to like say like, maybe you haven't done anything wrong. Maybe you look around and your team looks exactly like you and you did make all the right decisions and you didn't leave anyone out and you didn't exclude anyone. 

That's fine. But if you did, you know, maybe get some training, maybe look around and see where you can fill those gaps with people who are diverse. So again, like I just want to come across like there's an accusation to be made.

That's not what we're doing. It's really just like creating awareness that diversity is helpful. And I love what you said and I said it for you is that it doesn't cost us anything. 

It doesn't cost us anything to help everyone up the ladder and specifically those who haven't always had the same opportunities. It doesn't cost us anything. But if we don't do it, it will cost us everything. 

It will cost our effectiveness, our productivity, our happiness, our beliefs and respect, people's happiness at home. It will cost us everything if we don't get this fixed. And so again, go take that opportunity anytime. 

And this is my last message. I promise I won't say anything after this. When we see protected classes winning, we should celebrate. 

When we see women being promoted, we should be ecstatic and also like be comfortable that we have nothing to fear. There's plenty of room. I'm not saying white males. 

I'm saying if you are whoever you are, we have nothing to fear. There's plenty of room for all of us. We should celebrate when everybody has the same opportunities that you do. 

On we go. Please join us next time in elevating the entire construction experience for workers, leaders and companies coast to coast. If you're enjoying the show, please feel free to share with your construction colleagues and help us spread the word by rating, subscribing and leaving a review on your preferred podcast listening platform. 

We really appreciate it. We'll catch you next time on the Elevate Construction Podcast.