The law is slow. Right? It moves like molasses. And so when something it becomes a hot issue, like, you know, the the copyright question around generative AI and the, you know, the pictures that are be being created and generated and where are they getting the source material from for that, that's really a question that I think is going to like you said, it's going to come to a lot of technical things, but it's also just that it takes it takes a lot of time to figure that out. And, so I think you're right.
The answer is it depends. But I think it's going to be a really it's going to be really hard to enforce the the rights.
Hi. Welcome. Great to see you, Zach. How how goes at Ryan.
It's going fine. Feel like I see you a lot now.
A lot going on. It is, yeah.
We've announced the Startup World Cup. That is in about ninety one days. Something else is being announced soon
Oh, yep.
That I heard you talk about. So that'd be cool. People look about that. What's on your mind? Did you watch the game last night?
I watched a little bit of the first quarter. But you know?
High scoring affair.
Yeah. Well, yeah, they came out, early. They, and both teams did miss. And then, the Pacers went on to I don't know what they they were, like, eight for eight, whatever. I don't know.
But, yeah, I, my bedtime is early, man. I have to I have to prioritize sleep.
I understand. I went to bed as well, but I woke up, saw the highlights, went to overtime. Pretty cool stuff. Congratulations to Indiana.
Is that who you're rooting for, is the Pacers?
I think so. I I like that this final four of the NBA playoffs, even though one has a one seat in it on the Western, it's still Oklahoma City. I feel like it's a, you know, it's a it's not who people it's not the norm. I like that. Yeah.
And I like it when teams that even though West Virginia's former basketball player, Joe Mazula is the coach of the Boston Celtics, you think I would want them to win. Well, they're not in it anymore. So I I don't I don't cheer for them. But, obviously, I want anytime West Virginia, any any association to my boys at West Virginia, they'll give them a shot. You know?
I think I've coined a new term, a new phrase, a new catchphrase for today's guest. When I first saw the form come through, which we ask all of our guests to fill out, just gives us a little brief on who they are, what they wanna talk about. Something catchy came to my mind. I clicked the website, saw this individual was working downtown, and I decided to they were downtown Crystal Brown. And about ninety four seconds ago, I asked her maybe three minutes and ninety four seconds.
I asked her if anyone had ever called her that before. What was the answer?
And the answer is no. I've never been called that before, but I am very much digging the nay.
Well, you know, I I do have a tendency to yep. I do have a tendency to be be the creator of Well, there we go. To even say to May 22. We're already at Christmas. It's already 2026.
It seems like, you know, Wally World's got the Halloween stuff up for 2027. I mean, this is just Yeah. Crazy crazy world.
But now broadcasted live. It's prerecorded forever in history.
That's right. Downtown Crystal Brown coming to you live right now. May 22.
That's right.
Moment. This is the creation of my new catchphrase, which may or may not need to be trademarked.
Episode 262 of the Furth and Four show.
How do what okay. So, trademarks are interesting, and we'll get into the business side of everything in in a little bit. But trademarks are interesting. There was a company associated with for a while in, I want to think, 2013 time frame. Their name was Carrie Norphic, c a r r y Norphic.
And they were, like, a bicycle delivery service for, like, your DoorDashes, your Grubhub, your Postmates, things like that. Actually, they did a lot of legal services where companies would need their paperwork to be moved from one place to another in different buildings. And so they would on their bicycles, they would transport them down the street. Name was Carrie Norfolk.
Couriers, like, just like in New York City. Yeah.
Yes. Yes. They didn't have they they're they didn't have the bird scooters. And these guys are, like, using real, real power.
And they would have their little. Didn't they have trailers on the back of their bike too?
Oh, sometimes they had trailer.
Oh. I
remember it wasn't Williams Mullen. It was what's the one in the SunTrust Truist building on where is Chuck MacPhillips work? I can't think of of where that is, what what Yeah. What that is. But they used to move so much stuff, and so they had these trailers that had to been a yard long, probably two feet wide.
They'd fill those suckers up boxes boxes and then just take them out. But I remember hearing that Carrie Norfolk, there were some issues with the the trademark world Yep. Common word or something.
That's right. That's that's
the challenge. Right?
Yeah.
So knowing that downtown Crystal Brown
Mhmm.
Has that, you know, common word in there, is that something that you think could be trademarked? Like,
what Yeah.
So Where are
we at all of that? Yeah.
Right. So it's an interesting thing because, like like you said, with the Cary Norfolk, when you want to trademark something, it has to be distinguishable from from other words. Right? So Cary is just a common word, and Norfolk is the name of a city, so you can't really trademark that. And so that is a situation where they would have needed to put something distinguishable about it in order for them to have trademarked that.
Now downtown Crystal Brown is interesting because downtown is a common word. But, also, like I tell people all the time, my my name is Crystal like the stone and Brown like the color. So all of those words are actually common words. On the flip side, Crystal Brown together is my name, and so I do have the ability to, you know, have some protection over my name and how it's used versus lowercase crystal and lowercase brown. So I think if I were to trademark it, I probably would actually trademark, like, a logo or a design to go with it, and that would be the part that would be protectable, the logo, the design, maybe not necessarily downtown by itself or crystal by itself and definitely not brown by itself.
Well, I'm glad I'm not the only old one because when I we first established this before we went live, I had mentioned Uh-huh. Downtown Julie Brown from MTV. So would that would that prevent you from being able to trademark that because it is so similar to
Well, I that would depend because when we are looking to trademark something, the first thing we have to do is a trademark search, right, to see what's already been trademarked. So is Downtown Julie Barron trademarked? I don't know. I could do a quick search for you to see, but that would be the first thing. And if it's not, then, of course, it would not present prevent me from trademarking because there the trademark doesn't exist.
So the thing about trademark is if it's not registered, I don't have to be worried about having any sort of, like, conflict with it even though she used it.
How do people like, Taylor Swift trademark so much stuff?
Yeah. So, I mean yeah. Well, her name, for starters. Right? Like, so you have your a right to your image, your name, who you are.
Like, you know, someone can't go around and be like, I'm gonna trademark the name, you know, Taylor Swift or or anything like that because that's somebody else's just like her image is the same way. You can't trademark a picture of her because it belongs to her. It's her proprietary.
I mean, like, even back in the day, like, didn't Paris Hilton, like, trademark, like, that's hot or something? I don't know. It's just it's wild. Yeah.
Trademark is interesting, and it's even more interesting because there's the concept of, you know, having marks that are too similar, but you also have to think about what category you're trademarking your mark in because, there's different classes. And so there's there's that aspect of it, and, it's just even, like, the likelihood of confusion. The example that I always talk about, and we're going way back here, but, you know, coming to America with some McDougalls. And he says, you know, they have the golden arches, but I have the golden m. And I always think about that when I talk about trademark.
We're we're we're going way back on
Way back. Way back. But that's, like, the best exam that's the best example. They have the golden arches. I have the golden but, really, they there's no way that that trademark would have worked because that's definitely likely to cause confusion.
Do you think Budweiser back in the day maybe it was Bud Light. I think it was Budweiser. The thing. Do you think that was trademarked or, like, the amount of s is in there?
No idea. I have no idea. Y'all guys you guys are asking some some questions that require I
was gonna I was wondering if Downtown Crystal Brown is, like, treading. Like, is this your specialty? If we've not already determined the fact that you are an attorney and Yes. Because even specialize in this
part of law. Tim.
I did start it. That's right. You're right.
I did
start it because I, you know, I was like, well, can I can I protect that part? Thought about this. And I only said that because you said I was the because you said I'm the creative one, and I was like, yes.
Throwing it back there.
Owns that mark. But who owns the mark? Is it my mark now, or is it your mark because you created it?
10%. I'll take 10%. I just need a
little I just need
a little need a little royalty.
You know? But, no, to answer the to answer the question, yes, I do, I do some some work with trademark. You know? I think that's, like, a a big because I do, like to focus on, you know, small business owners, entrepreneurs, and creatives in the community. That's that's usually who, you know, who I'm talking to.
Trademark is the number one question that comes up all the time. I get questions about contracts. I get questions about business entity, and then it's do should I trademark? Do I trademark? How do I trademark?
Can I trademark? Those kinds of things. I get that all.
And what is the answer you tell startups? When is the best time? So, like, you start with, like Yeah. Nothing. You have you're not generating revenue.
Do you take that first thousand, two thousand dollars, whatever, to trademark?
Yep. Probably not.
Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah. So
answer that question
for me.
I I I think that so so one thing about lawyers is almost always the answer to everything that you ask them is it depends. So that's what I tell people all the time. You ask me a question, and I say it depends. But in terms of trademarking, if you're just starting out, for that, I would say probably not. And the reason why is because if you're just starting out and let's say you're like, okay.
I'm starting my business. I have this name. I'm going with it. And then, you know, you get two or three months into the business. Maybe you decide that, you know, the vision that you have for your business needs to change.
Maybe you have a different mission. Maybe you're changing the way that you do business, and then somewhere along the lines, you change your name. Maybe you bring in a partner. And now you have to go and redo all of the trademark paperwork again. So I don't recommend starting with trademarking.
I think you start with the business aspect. You start with your idea. You start with your growth. And then when you're settled and you know, you know, you know what line of business you're working in, you know that this is you know, you have a logo. You have a name that you're trading on, that you're doing business on, that and that's when it's time to protect your mark.
So I I don't think the trademark is the first step.
Isn't there also, like, a five year review thing or something that you have to submit to keep the trademark active?
You do have to yeah. It's usually yeah. There is a time period. So you do have to make sure that it's ten years that you have your mark, but you need to make sure that there's a couple of things about trademark. Right?
So one of the big things that I always tell people is once you have your trademark, you're not actually done. Getting the trademark is just the beginning because it's also your job to police your trademark, which means that if someone else is using your mark or using a mark that's similar to yours or abusing your mark, then it's your job and your responsibility to, to reach out to them and ask them to stop. So it's and the government's not going to reach out on your behalf. There's not, like, trademark police who are just, like, you know, always, like, looking at things like, oh, this person's violating this trademark. This person's violating that trademark.
It's your trademark, and it's your job to protect it. So once you have that mark, you actually need to really be vigilant about making sure that others aren't using your mark, that you are, you know, reaching out to people that may be abusing your mark, and then, of course, keeping up with your trademark registration because you're right. It could expire without you knowing, and someone else could take your mark, and and that would really stink for you.
I would just like the world to know. The downtown Crystal Brown is doing a fantastic job on her very first podcast ever. I mean, she was questioning whether or not she had, like, the ability to speak to someone in twelve minutes. People rocking and rolling. I mean, like Yeah.
Now I I just jinxed it, obviously. She's
Yeah. I know. Right now, it's something to be, like, awkward silence. Like, let's just all steer here, crickets. You know?
And it's it's really funny that we're even talking about this because before jumping on the show today, I just deleted, I I get this all the time, an email from someone from China saying, please forward this to your CEO about the URL that you're using or whatever that it conflicts with Chinese law or something. And it's just I just we don't do business in China. We don't do anything. And, you know, it's just a money grab spam kind of thing. Yeah.
It's like a prince in Egypt type of deal.
Yeah. Got
it. So it's it's safe safe to delete all that stuff too downtown Crystal Brown?
Well, you know, I'm gonna give you the answer that I that I It depends.
It depends.
It depends. It depends. Because the thing about it is most of the time, the answer is very fact specific. And I would need to know more, and then I'd have to do the research. And then I could come up with an answer for you.
Well, I will I just continue to delete. And if things get really spicy, then we'll cross that bridge. But, otherwise, we would have you on
retainer. Okay.
So you've been practicing law for ten years.
Mhmm. Yep.
And within the last, I don't know, eighteen months or so, you decided you you had the old entrepreneurial itch. You wanted to go out on your own and do it. You have a very fancy office there with
Thank you.
You know, we've had a lot of
I like it when we have this photo shot. I I like to try to watch the the time click.
Yes. Right? In the background? Yeah. I love this clock.
This is, like, a very there's a yep. So so you know that it's live right now, and the time is just ticking behind me.
That is dangerous because if it's not right, you don't know.
It is right.
Probably twenty twenty five twenty five guests or so from assembly probably more. I did not think you're in that building. That's why I was shocked when you said you were. We're just unpacking rooms that no one's ever seen before.
So Exactly. Yeah. This is actually my favorite room just because just because it has couches in it. And so I this is of all the meeting rooms, this one's my favorite. And sometimes I will just book it for half an hour in the middle of the day and come hide in here and take a nap.
So that's my secret about this room.
The secret's out.
The secret's out. Right? The curtains are closed, and everyone thinks I'm working hard, but, really, I'm taking a power nap.
You know, if the navy seals can take an eight minute nap,
there's no way walk
on campus.
I
also take eight minute naps, and I tell people that all the time. They think that's crazy. But, yeah, eight minute nap. That'll do it.
I see. And there's a way that they can do it?
With the breathing.
Oh, no. I know it by the legs. You put your legs up on a chair.
Okay.
So, like
I've heard this before.
So your legs go to a 90 degree angle, and then you lay flat on your back with the
Yeah.
On a chair or something.
Yeah.
And they say, like, if you can't fall asleep in that, you're not going to.
Wow. That's interesting. I've actually never tried that position because I have no no trouble falling asleep. Like, people ask me this all the time. But when it's when I feel like it's my nap time, I literally will just say to myself, alright.
Eight minute nap, and then I just fall asleep. I've slept in so many strange places. Like, I'll just sleep in my chair, in a a booth, a table, at work, wherever, and then after eight minutes. Usually, like and now it's somewhere, like, what's seven minutes and forty five seconds. I'm just like, alright.
I'm done, and then I wake up.
People catnap.
Yep. Yeah. I people talk about taking a nap. Drink a cup of coffee then take a nap. Yes.
And then the but that does I find that doesn't work for me.
No. No. No.
Oh, yeah.
It would at nighttime, but not during the day.
It works for me in the morning. I I I wake up and drink a cup of coffee and go back to bed, and then I wake up half an hour later. Is that weird? Is I'm giving time for the caffeine to kick in. And then when I wake up, I'm like, boom.
I'm ready to go now.
Yeah. Studies show.
I don't know what study,
but some study out there shows
study out there.
That you should not take caffeine immediately when you wake up because your natural whatever hasn't hit yet. I have already not going to do what you want it to do. That's why you get more tired later.
Mhmm.
Studies say. That is what studies say. Yeah.
Studies can say whatever they want these days, I feel like.
Well, that is the a
study to justify any just about anything.
Very true.
It seems. Okay. So
Yeah. So now that we've gone down that rabbit hole. How
are the robots affecting the legal profession?
How are the robots affecting the legal profession?
A lot of copyright stuff is my prediction that, is gonna
Well okay. So there's two ways that
I can come about this question because I is the question, how are the robots affecting my job security, or is the question, how are the robots affecting copyright and creatives and those kinds
of things? I I think that the interesting thing is
Tim, answer is simple. It's it depends.
It depends. No. It real but I guess and let me frame it this way. It depends based on how that AI model is trained.
Mhmm. Yeah. So I think and this is really interesting about it is what I tell people all the time is that the law is slow. Right? It moves like molasses.
And so when something becomes a hot issue, like, you know, the the copyright question around generative AI and the, you know, the pictures that are being created and generated and where are they getting the source material from for that, that's really a question that I think is going to like you said, it's going to come to a lot of technical things, but it's also just that it takes it takes a lot of time to figure that out. And, so I think you're right. The answer is it depends. But I think it's going to be a really it's going to be really hard to enforce the the rights. And I think it's going to really come back to the question that the the thing that I said earlier, which is if you are the owner of the creative material, the onus is really going to be on you in either protecting your material or proving that your rights have been you know, that someone has violated or that they're using your your copyrighted material in an inappropriate way.
And so and I think what's going to happen is because generative AI pulls from so many sources, it will become very difficult for you to prove that that one aspect or piece is actually yours.
It is tough to, defend, though, when you are some of your results are have watermarks of
Mhmm. Well, that's true. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So I and I will say that's what I said. It depends. Right? But I think it is going to be because it's just like with the trademark that I said earlier.
As the owner of those, you know, trademarks and those the copyrights and that material, it's always on you to protect it. Right? So no one else is going to protect it for you. So you'd have to be the one that's vigilant about looking and seeking. You know, is my material out there?
Is it being used in inappropriately in a way that I don't want it to be? And then what steps do I need to take? Who do I need to reach out to to say, you know, hey. Stop using my material. So
So with that, I always felt it was hard maybe for any, like, any business other than, like, super huge businesses Mhmm. To have copyrights, trademarks, patents, things like that Mhmm. Because they don't have the capital to combat it. And because that's the
Yeah. And, I mean, I'll say this, which is especially with copyright. So the thing about copyright is and what makes it different from trademark is copyright is a protection that you use for something that you have created. Right? So, a song, a book, a work of art, something that was in your head that you put into an actual tangible form that can now be experienced by others.
When you create that tangible form of that item, it's already protected. You don't have to register. You don't have to copyright it for it to be protected. It's protected in the moment of creation. The thing about copyright, the reason why you would register and get a copyright is just because when you do that, then that allows you to be able to say to the rest of the world, I am the owner of this, whatever it is.
This song was my creation. This piece of art was my creation. And so it sort of becomes we call it, like, it's just, like, the de facto standard. And so the nice thing about that is, let's say you have, you know, a work of art or a song or a book that you've written, and no one around you is arguing that it doesn't belong to you. And at that moment that you've created it, you already have copyright protection.
But if you actually file the copyright paperwork, then if something ever comes along, you don't have to have capital or even that much money to send someone a letter and say, hey. The material that you're using or, you know, this this thing, this music, this art pieces, whatever, belongs to me. I have a copyright on it, which means that I have the right to just send you a letter to you need to stop. Cease and desist. You know?
And I don't need a thousand dollars to tell someone this belongs to me, and I need you to stop. And most of the time, people are not going to argue with that. Right? Most of the time, a a letter saying, this is mine. You're violating my rights.
I need you to stop. That's usually sufficient, and you don't have to have a lot of capital to be able to do that. And so, actually, copyright can maybe save you money down the road because it will allow you to just be able to say right off the bat, don't have to have any arguments. I don't have to prove to you this is mine. I don't have to show you, like, a, you know, a time stamp of the time that I created it, and here's the file on my computer.
I just say, this is mine. Here's a copy of my copyright.
But then you hope that they actually do it.
Yeah. And you have to hope that they actually do it, but I will say and so this is something, you know, that I have done in the past is I've had clients that will say to me, again, they're policing their mark. Right? And they see that someone is using it, and they come and they say, you know, this other business is using our mark or, you know, a very similar mark, they're violating our rights or whatever. And the first step the first thing we do is we look, we confirm, and we send a letter.
Almost always, it's another small business, right, or, you know, an entrepreneur or whatever the case may be. They're not trying to make things more difficult for themselves. They're trying to start their own business. They're trying to get their, you know, own foundation going. So, usually, they're not going to fight back and say, no.
You know? No. It's not. This isn't your mark. I'm I'm gonna keep using it anyways.
You're not usually going to have that situation. Most of the time, people are going to say, oh, I see you have the copyright. Oh, I see you have the trademark. Okay. You know?
Because the thing about it is, I think a lot of times and this is kind of why I even started in this space is I think a lot of times, startups and entrepreneurs, they're really focused on the business aspect of it. But, you know, a lot of times, it's an honest mistake. They didn't think to to ask or to go look or to say, do I need to make sure that this name that I've created for my business doesn't belong to someone else? Interesting.
Now that we've gone down this, like, rabbit hole go ahead, Zach.
Gotten a letter like that once, though, Tim.
Oh, have you? Yeah?
I have gotten a letter like this, and God. I even know what I did?
What did you do? Probably the same thing that I did.
So I get the letter. So Hatch had a Facebook cover photo
Okay.
Of an egg. And I believe a turtle coming out of it because I like turtles. K?
K. Okay.
You can see the turtles behind me. There's only four ninja turtles, but I still like other turtles too. Okay? So it's a cracked egg with, I believe, a turtle out of it. Maybe there wasn't a turtle out of it.
Maybe it was just the word hatch associated with it if Okay. The egg cracked. There is a company in Atlanta, Georgia, I believe, called Hatch Medical.
Oh, okay.
I think got mad. We got a feature in Entrepreneur Magazine. I think that's how they found it.
That's how they found it. Right? Yeah. Because when it was local, no one would again, because it's up to them to police it, so they're not looking.
Right. So my lawyer at the time says, I'm just gonna email them and tell them to eat dirt. That's what we did. We didn't do it. Like, we're just like, screw you.
And Yeah. Never heard anything else.
Never heard anything.
They're in
a different industry. There's no way there's, like
Yeah. And and that's actually exactly what I was going to say was I likely would have said the same thing, which is that's a completely different industry. Hatch Medical, like, that's not the field that you were in. So because a a lot of times when we get these you know, when you see something a similar name, it's is there a likelihood of confusion? Is someone likely to confuse your use of Hatch with medical services?
Probably not. So in that particular instance, that you probably are not you know, like, no one's gonna walk by and and see your logo or see you on Facebook and be like, ah, this must be the medical supply company or whatever that I was looking for.
Yeah. You wouldn't trust me as a doctor.
Well, have to go on go the Different geographical location. So but yeah. So and I and that's the thing is, marks can marks can coexist. Right? Like, you can have similar marks in lots of different geographical locations and lots of different, classifications and business industries.
So it's not like if and this is this is a thing. So it's not like if you go and you look up you come up with a business name and you look and you see, oh, no. Somebody already has that name. I'm never going to be able to use it. That might not be the case.
But, again, it depends.
Is is this in fact your your wheelhouse? What or or what is your specialty in the legal profession?
In the legal profession. Yeah. So, so I have been practicing for the most part, my focus has been on franchise law. So when we think about franchisors or franchisees, those that are trying to expand their business, that is what I have focused on for the most part. So I help with franchise disclosure documents, writing contracts, things like that.
And so, of course, to go along with that, things that are related to business in general. So I I help with, business entity setup, business formation. And, and because, again, when you just think about business in general and brand packaging, intellectual property, that's where we get into the copyright and and trademark issues. Just sort of just those things in general. So business related, if you're trying to be in business, start a business, how do I protect my business, how do I grow my business?
Those are the things that I I focus on.
We do hear I'm sure Zach can attest to this as well, but a lot of, hey. What's your road map look like? It seems like, oh, we're gonna franchise. It's like, you don't really have a product yet, let alone franchising in this thing. So what is your advice to people, when they first approach you about franchising?
Franchising. Yeah. So I have I've had a lot of conversations, and that start with that. Right? So people come in and say, oh, a franchise attorney, which there's not that many of us.
And so then they're like, well, I want a franchise. How do I get started? And my answer is always the same, which is focus Depends. On no. Actually, that shouldn't be there.
No. For this one, it's not. If you are a sold like, a a you know, you have your own small business or you're starting up and, yes, your goal is to franchise, the best thing you can do for yourself right now is focus on growing your business and developing a business system that is successful. That's what you need to do. You need to develop the systems.
You need to have a stable business plan, a business model. You need to show that your business can, you know, can be successful, that it can endure, like, you know, economic situations, that there is a potential for profit. Because all of those having all of that in place is what you need to have first before you can even franchise. Right? You can't think about franchising if your business model is not successful.
You can't think about franchising if the one and only location that you have is in the red every year. Who's gonna buy your franchise? Nobody. You can't think about franchising if you don't have systems in place, if you can't replicate the way that you do business in another location. Like, what would be the point of that?
Like, if I have, you know, a business where I know what I'm doing like, let's say I have a restaurant and all everything on the menu is a secret recipe, and only I know the recipe and it's in my head. How how would I franchise that? If I don't have the recipes written down and no one can duplicate it, then what would make the other location like my location? Right? The whole point of franchising is to be able to scale your business, but that means that you need to have everything in place to be able to duplicate your business.
Like, you want to be able to clone your business. So
I see this as being something that we can clip and use a lot of, Zach. It that is such sound advice for anyone whether if you want a franchise or not. It's like, have a product, establish a system. Yeah. Repeat, generate revenue, and make sure that it can withstand a test of time.
Exactly. And then think about franchising.
Yeah. The only thing that I would add to that, and I think everyone should do this, and I really didn't grasp it
Mhmm.
Until I started doing some, like, running races and triathlons is really documenting. Yes. Because trying to remember later what the hell you did is very difficult.
Exactly.
And look. It's tedious. It's very annoying.
It's very tedious. And, you know, another part to go with along with that is and this is something that I think a lot of business owners don't think about is, like, you may only be a small business with yourself and two employees, but please go ahead and think about creating that employee handbook or your business standards or whatever it is that, you know, that that you, like you said, document things. So who are your suppliers? Who are the people that you, that you, you know, do business with? What are the standards for how your business needs to operate and run?
What is the opening, you know, like, sort of protocol look like? What does the closing protocol look like? Because, you know, first of all, that will help you with your current business just even if it's just you and two other employees to be more efficient and successful. Second of all, when it's time to franchise, you do have to tell other people all of that. They need to know that.
Right? So you don't want to get to the moment where you're like, ah, I want a franchise, but now I realize I actually don't have an employee handbook. I don't have an operations manual. And I can't really tell you how we you know, what our protocol is for opening the store or closing the store or how we answer the phone or anything like that because we just do it, but nobody has it written down anywhere.
That's great advice. I think it it's even good for yourself. Yeah. Right? To just know, like, hey.
Like, this is the expectation. You're gonna work nine to five Monday through Friday. Right. I don't want you working on the weekends. I really don't want you working five to nine.
Like, we're gonna come in. This is how we're setting the standard. This is I'm setting the standard for myself. Right? Like, I find that a lot of entrepreneurs feel like they have to work eighty hour weeks, feel like they have to hustle and bustle.
But then if you really break down their calendar, you're like, well, there's a lot of wasted time in here where you're not doing what you should. I've done this in the past myself. I'm not I'm not I don't that doesn't mean there's not outliers that something between five and nine can't happen, that you can't there can't be something on a weekend because those things are absolutely gonna happen. But these people who do that because they feel like they have to, but they're actually they're burning the midnight candle or whatever that that line is.
Yes. Yeah.
Or But they're wasting time.
Midnight oil or burning the candle at both ends or something along those lines.
I'm not good at remembering.
Stuff. Yeah. Me neither. I always get confused.
But there's just so much wasted time. Right? And if you think about it, I think some calendars, start at, like, every meeting's an hour or thirty minutes. Mhmm.
And to
me, it's like, this conversation can be two minutes.
Mhmm.
Like, I don't think it should be a two minute conversation. I about ten years ago, I came up with this concept called the fifty ten challenge Okay. Where a lot of people are like, well, you know, I wanna meet a lot of people, but I I, you know, I can only do eight meetings in a day. I'm like, eight meetings? Yeah.
Why do they all have to be an hour? What if you were to have fifty ten minute conversations with people? You can learn a lot from that. And you could do that two, three hours a day, and that's fifth you know, fifteen, twenty conversations.
Mhmm.
But because you're like, how much of that hour long time I know this is an hour
long time.
Well, and
I like how Yeah. But this is like I like that
Google established a monetary value in the calendar too.
Yes.
What do they do? Is it thirty minutes?
Well, no. They'll they put there's something in the side where you can look to see how much this meeting cost. Yeah.
And, I mean, I will say that is something that I think about. Like, if I'm, you know, scheduling to do something for an hour, an hour that I'm spending doing that is an hour that I'm not spending working. Right?
And I And then if there's drive
time in there so it's billable hours for me. Right? So I do think in terms of, like, this hour is costing me this much money. So but I think that that we should all, like, all right. And this is the thing about it is, in a way, I guess, I am my own entrepreneur because I do have my own business.
So I'm just in the same boat as everyone else that I'm helping and having conversations with. And I so I think that it's it's the same for all entrepreneurs, which is that you really need to understand that your time is such a valuable asset, and you cannot get it back when it's gone. And so you really do need to be thinking about, am I using my time efficiently? Am I using my time wisely? Am I realistic about my time?
So, like, for example, you were talking about the, you know, the one hour meetings and having eight of them in a day. But I know for me personally, that would never ever work because I need downtime between my meetings. Right? So I can't have an hour meeting followed by an hour meeting followed by an hour meeting. I need, like, you know, a forty five minute meeting at most because I'm gonna need fifteen minutes to collect my thoughts, take notes, the recap email, so forth and so on, and then have another hour meeting.
So, like, just being realistic with your time and how you're using it and how much time things take. Because like you said, drive time, travel time, eat time, nap time. Like, I you like, all of those things are
gonna come. It can
be explained. So so yeah. You know? So so I do you're right. Like, it's just, it's really important to be aware of your time and just like you said, setting a system for yourself that says, I do this from this time to this time.
Right? This is
And that's that's why I use Calendly for me personally because I do have rules in place that I can't have back to back meetings.
Yep. Yeah.
I because I do need
calendar thing that you talk about with the money value. That's cool.
I'll ahead see. I'll take a I'll take a look at it. But that or and and show you. But that's one of the things that, like, when I sit at a meeting, you know, like, mentally, I'm like, I I obviously don't know what people's salaries are, but, like, I'll go around the room and I'll think, alright. You scheduled a two hour meeting and just going around the room doing some mental math.
And I'm like, is this is this meeting really generating this much value based on my guesstimate
Right.
Of how much
it costs?
The the literal meaning of time is money. Right? Time is money. And and are you using your time wisely? That's, like that's such a a big thing that I talk about all the time and just being efficient with your time.
So, but, yeah, I think that having and, actually, to circle back to what we were originally saying and the time is a lot of times, business owners and entrepreneurs, they don't want to to take the time to do those, like, employee handbooks or operation manuals or systems, like creating systems and putting them in place because they take time. Right? And so they're like, well, I don't have time right now to create that manual or that handbook. I'll come back to it later, so forth and so on. And what I always try to say is developing systems on the front end will save you so much time on the back end.
Right? It's worth it. It's worth it to take the time to create that operations manual or that employee handbook. Because if you can take an hour to create an employee handbook, and then in the long run, that saves you eight hours from having to spend one hour talking to each new employee that you hire.
Yep.
You have saved time. You're going to be successful in the long run. So setting up those systems, and then that will save you time later if you're thinking about franchising and you're like, oh, in, you know, in the they're saying your lawyer or whoever is saying, I need all of these different documents. You can be like, I already have them. I'm ready to go.
Right? I'm solid.
A a way to do this in an easy way, I think, is to open up, just an email or notes app. Press on your phone the, either the record button or just the dictation button or, you know, the notification. Right? Yeah. And then just start talk what you want and then have notes.
Obviously, it stops at some point. But just do that a bunch because when I would write the books that I've written, that's a lot of the stuff that I would do. Yeah. Because I, you know, I can't type very fast. Yeah.
You know? I'm a human. I think I type, like, 42 words a minute. I'm not lying, Tim. It's crazy.
Let me share something actually that just happened recently. So I serve as, in addition to having my own business, I work as of counsel for, like, other firms. So, basically, if other firms have a client, maybe they don't necessarily do, you know, corporate law or they have a client who has a particular business law need, then I can help them with that. So I was sitting in so one of the firms that I assist with, they have an internship program. And so I was sitting in on the internship meeting, and it was a virtual meeting.
We were onboarding the new interns, we're telling them, you know, these are the expectations. This is why we have the program. Here's what we expect you to do, blah blah blah. So like an onboarding meeting, one hour. Right?
And, so the meeting was online, and so I actually just had it was on Google Teams, and we turned on Gemini to take notes and do a transcript of the whole meeting. Right? And when it was all over, the other attorney said, man, I wish I had recorded that because then in the future when I onboard interns, I can just, you know, say, hey. Watch this video. And I said, okay.
Well, we didn't record it, but here's what we can do. And so I took the notes. I had Jim and I take the notes in the transcript, and I said to it, create for me an intern onboarding handbook for the future. And it did. Six sections.
I told you all the sections that I wanted, and it summarized everything that was said in the meeting. And so now in the future, when we have a new intern, we can just be like, here's your handbook. So But you don't have to type anything.
I love that. I have a question, regarding the same thing. How does how does that apply to board meetings and recording board meetings? Is that, like, a no no? Or or
It depends.
It depends. Right? Because when we think about the use of AI for taking notes for board meetings and things like that and even, like, in law firm and the use of the of generative AI, you do have concerns about confidentiality, you know, privileged situations. Are you saying the names of your client in the meetings and things like that? Because, you have to look the terms and services of the the terms of services of the of the AI platform you're using.
Right? If they're keeping that, if they're recording that, if there's a possibility that that can be exposed, then there could be that could be a no no. Right? There could be some issues because now you might be breaking, you know, privilege you might be exposing privileged information or breaking client confidentiality. So I think it depends.
And I do think that there are ways that a board could have a meeting and use the, you know, the note taking feature, and still, you know, be, like, kosher and all good. But I think that every every group needs to have that conversation about how can we have meetings and maybe still use AI or how can even, like, legal practices use AI in a way that's still ethical. So
Yeah. Why?
You know, you got No.
It's completely different. Go ahead.
Sure.
Yeah. I was just gonna say we're like, before we do stuff with and and I suppose that's probably why Zoom and the other places, like, notifying you that this is being recorded so that if you have an objection to that, that can be raised.
Yeah.
Why are lawyers expensive?
Why are lawyers expensive? I love that question, and I and this is the answer that I love to give, which is that you're not paying me for the time it takes me to write your contract. What you're paying me for is all of my expertise and knowledge and the things that I know that you don't know about the law to make sure that I write you a good contract. We're expensive because we have been spending years honing our craft and, you know, and and learning and learning from our practice, from other clients, from things that we've done wrong in the past, from things that we've done right, from keeping up to, you know, speed on the law, for taking the time maybe to research and make sure that the law is still good for you, that that's why. And, also, you know, I will say this.
Of all the things that I've done in my life, and I've done a lot of things, law school was the hardest. The hardest by far. My first year of law school was horrible.
And that's actually even talking. That's minus the bar exam.
So That's minus the yeah. I'm saying, like, everything in my life. Right? So I've I've I have children. I've given birth.
I've, you know, traveled. I've I've done all kinds of things. I've been a military spouse. I've been all kinds of experiences. My first semester of law school was so hard that even though I actually did well in school, when a couple days before second semester started, I actually thought I wasn't going to go back because I was like, I don't know if I can do this again.
So, anyway, all that to say,
you weren't very expensive because we provide a valuable service, and
that's why. You know? Because, my my my sister actually gave me when I graduated, she gave me a coffee mug, and it said, please don't confuse your Google search with my law degree.
Okay. I get I get I get that. I grasp that. Everything you said, I would agree with that most people should answer that question that way. However Mhmm.
It appears in a lot of sit that's my that's my it depends.
No. Take it. I love it, though. Yeah.
It appears that a lot of times, it's just control f, take out old company name, throw in new business name, and they already have something drafted in some of these documents, and they're still being thrown, like, hours and hours of stuff. Like Right. That seems like something that shouldn't be that that expensive. But then
Well and so here's the thing because I don't disagree with you. Like, I have a lot of contract templates. I do typically reuse them once I you know? And, actually, for, a good portion when I first started up my old form my old firm, what I actually did was I would just make master templates of contracts. Right?
A purchase and sale agreement, you know, an independent contracting agreement, or whatever kind of agreement, and it was just sort of like this master form. But the thing about it is, and this is actually what I was relates to what I was just saying earlier, is everybody's situation is different. And what you need in your contract depends on who you are, what you're trying to do, and the context of your business. Right? So, yes, it could be that all I have to do is copy and paste and, you know, command f, and I'm just replacing names or something like that.
But there could be something more that you need. You could have a particular business situation. You could have, like, licensing issues. You could have something that you don't even know is something that you need to have in your contract, and that's where the lawyer comes in. Because I can say to you, okay.
I understand that you want this licensing agreement. You've told me that, and you think that that's all that you need. But I want you to tell me more about the context. What more is there that we need to know about? What is something that maybe you didn't even think about?
Like, maybe the business entity is not established correctly. Maybe there's someone else who has a right to this mark that you didn't mention to me and that if we hadn't put that in the contract, your contract would have had issues in the future. So it's those kinds of things. It's the it's the parsing of the facts. It's the, okay.
Yes. You need an independent contractor agreement. You need a purchase and sale agreement. You need, you know, an operating agreement, and you could get any of those things online. You can Google them.
You can have ChatGPT write it for you. Sure. But the thing about it is neither Google will chat or ChatGPT will have a conversation with you specifically about what your business needs, what you might need protection from, what you may have not even considered or thought about because you don't realize that there's a law that relates to that. And ChatGPT and Google aren't gonna put those contract clauses in for you, and I will, and lawyers will. Alright.
Send me a bill.
With all that said, what is the most common mistake that a startup founder makes when they start a new venture?
I think probably the the the thing that I noticed the most is that founders are really, really passionate and enthusiastic about getting their business off the ground. Right? So they're thinking about their business plan. They're thinking about their potential clients. They're talking to people and networking.
I've got this business. You know, come work with me. You know, I have this service, and that I can offer you. So so all of the business aspect of it, which is great, and they're passionate about that. And that's why they're starting their business, and I love that for them.
But a lot of times, that means that they're so focused on those things that they're not thinking about, for example, the fact that they're our sole proprietor when maybe they need to be an LLC, or they're not thinking about the fact that they've gone into business with their two friends and it's a partnership, but there's no partnership agreement, which means that if something goes wrong, it's gonna be real messy down the road. So I a lot of times, people jump into the business portion of it, of developing their business, of growing their business, but they're not kind of thinking about how have they established their business. Do they have a strong foundation? Are they making sure that everything is established correctly legally speaking so that ten years from now, five years from now, two years from now, they're not coming to see me because they say, well, you know, we had this great idea. My friends and I did.
We started this business, and we're a partnership. But now things have gotten rocky, and I wanna sell, and they don't wanna sell, and so forth and so on. But we don't have any paperwork, and we never talked about what we would have what we would do if this happens.
Now What what are are your thoughts with, operating agreements having a an expiration date that forces the partners to rediscuss and and do a do a it gives you the opportunity to amend it, make changes, and do those things.
It as is. Yeah. Yeah. I think I mean, I think that that's a great idea. So I often say to, I say to clients all the time, I say, you know, an operating agreement is just a business prenup.
Right? It's things are great now, and life is good, and we're in our honeymoon phase. But just in case things go wrong later, let's just go ahead and be prepared for that. Let's think about that. Let's have that conversation.
Right? And so I don't I think it's great that if you have an operating agreement that requires you to look at it every couple of years and and reassess and say, where are we? Are we in the same place we were five years ago? Because think about marriage. Nobody's in the same place, you know, five years later in their marriage than they were when they first started.
So I don't see a problem with that if everyone's in agreement on that.
Yeah. What's your what's your take on equity? I I would think that another equity. Another common mistake would be issuing equity
Yeah. My I too many
people way too fast.
Yeah. My take on equity is is there anything else you can do first? Anything else. Right? Because, yes, I understand that right now you're trying to grow your business and you need the capital, and you are convinced that the capital is what you need to grow.
And I I get that. But you also don't know the potential of your business just yet. And if you're just giving away pieces of your pie, you know, like, without even realizing, like, how much you could grow or earn down the road, is it is it worth it? You know? So I I my my take on that usually is, you know, why are you why is this the option that you're choosing?
Like, let's have a conversation about this. Like, how will you feel about this in two years if this happens or if this happens or that happens? So, yeah, I'm not, I don't ever really say to someone, I recommend that you look the equity route. I used to say things like, there's a lot of resources out here that can support you. There's a lot of, you know, business chambers that you can look to.
There's grants that are available for you. Have you looked at that? Have you talked? Have you networked? Have you done those types of things?
And, you know, even, like, have you made sure that you have a great investor presentation that's really that you can really use that first, you know, angels or something before you before equity, anything before equity.
I mean, I feel like equity is there because it's just a sexy buzzword. Right?
Well and and today, it's worth nothing. You know? It is
just Right. Exactly.
I I think we've all been naive, and I well, I don't know about you downtown, Crystal Brown. But, I mean, I we we've all been naive to be like, oh, that sounds good. I maybe I should, you know, work for free, get some equity of zero. Right? It's just like, it's
difficult, I
think, to too because you your your expectation as a nonfounder in this thing, even though you might have equity and you might have been there early, you're probably not the one doing the big moving.
Mhmm. And
so you're depending on those individuals to do that.
Yeah. And
so you're kind of like a backpack in the you know, in this situation. And, like, I don't think anytime I ever had equity in a company, it turned into cash.
And and so it's just From
from the free from the free perspective.
Right. From the aspect of the equity holder. Right? So, like, even you're right. Like, it doesn't who is this even benefiting?
Because, like, for the founders, I'm like, don't give away part of your company. And then like you said, for someone who has the equities, like, what am I getting out of this CEO? So, yeah, you're right. And you don't have that much control over it usually.
You have zero control over it. Even when you have, like, Like
Right. Yep.
Go there and learn
from like a partnership. Right. Yeah.
Absolutely. Funny that so many people have learned the hard way, but
yet people have to learn that.
The same mistakes. It's almost like yeah.
Yeah. So this is interesting, because, like, that's actually one of the things. So, you know, yes, I I am a licensed attorney, and, yes, I do offer, you know, services to businesses. But my real passion has really been in just having conversations and workshops and, with in panels with just, like, small business owners and founders and entrepreneurs. Like, I just want to share this information where I can because these are things that I think a lot of people aren't thinking about.
They're not thinking about entities set up. They're not thinking about protecting their intellectual property. They're not thinking about equity and how that may impact their business in the long run or operations and procedures and systems and things like that. So I I've really been actually just, like, this is actually why I I started, my consulting firm, not necessarily to, you know, to have clients, but more so to serve as an educational vehicle, to just, like, small business owners and founders in our community, and just being able to share this information so that maybe if they think, hey. I didn't know about this, but this applies to me, and maybe I need to have some further conversation.
Maybe I need to do some research. Maybe I need to Google it. Right? So I'm really big on giving, founders and entrepreneurs, like, just sources. Like I say to them, you know, have you thought about whether or not you need an LLC?
And if you do, you can actually do that yourself. You don't need me to do that. But maybe you need me to have that conversation with you to make you think about whether or not you needed one in the first place. So
What is your fastest half marathon time?
My fastest half marathon time, I think it was, two hours and six minutes. It's not great.
I I was gonna go the other hard right turn. Maybe so maybe yours was hard right. I was gonna go hard left. I was wondering if you could trademark the scoring of a sourdough bread loaf.
Trademark the score.
Do do you Oh, is that, like, what's on top?
Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, so I do I I do bake. I have my sourdough that I actually and so just I disclaimer. I was making sourdough before 2020.
Okay?
So I was I was wondering.
I was wondering. Know. So my so I called them my yeasty beasties, and I actually started, like, in 2018 or 2019. And so when COVID hit and everybody was, like, big into the sourdough, I was like, well, that's so crazy. You know?
So one of my friends actually, asked me to make a video. So there's a YouTube video out there of me somewhere showing you how to make sourdough bread. Right? So that was my that was my hobby during during COVID. But in terms of the the scoring on the sourdough bread trademark, no.
But copyright, maybe. Like, I mean, you know, if I'm if it's so I I one time I made, like, have you guys ever seen, like in addition to making just bread, I make focaccia out of my my sourdough starter, and I I use all of, like, the vegetables and things and make, like, a picture of it. Right? So it's, like, it's got, like, bell pepper flowers and green onion like stems and, like, you know, focaccia gardens and things like that. Like, that's that's a creative work.
So if I take a picture of it, it's mine. It's copywritten.
Okay. Let's go. I'm hungry.
What was was that the was the sourdough bread craze during COVID the reason for the yeast shortage at grocery stores, or was
there something else? Yeah. Because there was also a flour it was, like, a yeast and flour shortage. Right? And because everybody was, like, making their own bread and stuff like that.
So, yeah. How
is it is it called your mother, or is it just your starter? Is it your starter?
It's called your starter. It's called your starter. I call mine my yeasty beasties. So I'm always like, oh, I gotta feed my yeasty beasties. You know?
But, yeah, it's called your starter. And, like, what you can do is so I actually made my starter from scratch. So rather than ordering starter so my starter is what I like to call 757 starter. Right? Like, because your start everybody's starter tastes differently based on the geographical location that it's made at.
That's why San Francisco sourdough bread is so popular. It's because it's in San Francisco. If you take that same starter out of San Francisco and move it to Maine, it won't taste the same. So but, anyway, so I have seven five seven starter. And so, yeah, it's your starter, and you can give that to other people, and then they can use it and continue to grow it and feed it and make sourdough.
So
How old is yours at this point?
So mine is six years old at this point because I started in 2019.
Our our buddy Chris Hill was telling me about a place that he went to, and it was, a hundred year old starter or something
like that.
Yeah. Well, like, when you go to San Francisco, their their sourdough starter, I think, is also, like, a 20 years old or something like that. They just always use a little bit of it and just keep renewing.
Yeah. It's a real thing, and it's quite interesting that you're eating something that's so old and disgusting. Focaccia like, fresh focaccia is unreal.
It's it's it's delicious, though. Right? And and there's, like, there's this meme that I saw on Instagram one day that's, like that's so funny because not only are you eating something so old, but, like, as a sourdough baker, you're actually feeding all of the yeast. Right? You're feeding it all, and there's all these microbes, and they're growing, and they're getting big or whatever, and then you kill them all.
So every time that you are making sourdough, you're like a mass microbe murderer. You're just growing them for slaughter. Wow.
How dare you, Dennis Brown?
The show is the show is taking a turn.
But we
but, hey, we had a great transition from one food to another. That is true. So
Yeah.
When you're not murdering mass murdering.
Well so here's the thing. I don't know if I would necessarily call it murder because murder
But you did.
Murder is
a legal term. I know. I did. Which is why I have to come back now, and I have to say, murder is a legal term. So it's the mass killing of microbes.
So murder has a specific definition, and it's not happening with the microbes because the microbes aren't people.
So are you murderer Crystal Brown now?
No. No. No. Absolutely No.
That's what I'm asking.
I I that screech was so loud they're hearing outside. Right? Like
Right. They know that the power nap is over.
The power nap's over.
She ain't snoring a lot today. So when you're not baking sourdough, when you're not protecting companies from the law
Uh-oh. Uh-oh.
What like, where's your go to place to get a bite to eat? Breakfast, lunch, dinner, doesn't matter. And does the seven five seven have a kind of go to food?
Does the seven five seven have a go to food? I don't think so. It should, but I can't think of anything off the top of my head. I do I will say that okay. So this is I mean, Dumars for me is a classic.
Okay.
Right? So I don't necessarily sometimes in the summertime, I'm just like, I need to have an this is a really weird thing, but they do a, a limeade float, and it's the only place I know of where I can get one. And, sure, I'm sure Sonic does it too, but there's this classic. And so I like to get the limeade float with the orange sherbet because you can the limeade float comes with lime sherbet. But if you get the lime float with limeade and orange sherbet, I think that anyway, in general, that's my favorite, but I think that Dumars is, a a seven five seven classic.
I don't know if it's necessarily a go to food. And in terms of where I like to go to eat, I'm a real foodie, so I'm kind of everywhere. I will say this is this is a a weird sort of thing, but I live in Downtown Norfolk, and Glasslight Hotel are you guys familiar with that? I know everyone sees it all the time. Right?
People are always like, oh, it's just a hotel, but they have a restaurant and a bar inside. They have a burger. It's called the Glasslight Burger. I know that seems so random because their their specialty is fancy French food. Sometimes I just walk to Glasslight for burger and fries because Mhmm.
Like like a random Wednesday. Because they make their burger with camembert cheese. It's a cheeseburger made with camembert. It's the cheapest thing on their menu, actually, which is I love. But and then you get it with a side of truffle fries.
That's my that's
the part of the When that place opened, it was a Michelin star chef. I don't think he's there anymore or she.
Don't know.
I don't
think so. Yeah. It it did open with the Michelin star chef.
What does it All of the food is good. All of the food there is great. But I think it's so funny because people I'm always telling people, yeah, I go to this really fancy bar, and then I just order a burger. But I love their burger.
Going back to Dumars, do ever go around the corner to the opposite side and hit the the doughnut dugout?
Yes. I have seen that, but I have not I have not been there. Is it good?
Go go tomorrow morning. Okay.
It'll change your life. Zach changed my life.
Okay. Alright.
Okay. So they I can't think of what it's called. It's it's in North Cauley. Okay. They have a burger with the and I've never been, but I've heard about this.
Sesame seed bun. It's supposed to be great. I'm trying to find it really fast, but I can't.
Cauley.
So it's, like, around that area of, like, Cogan's and the old all that's the the new Cogan's. LaGrand Kitchen. I found it. LaGrand Kitchen. Apparently, their burger is unbelievable.
Never had it.
I have to check out.
Supposed to be good.
Check it out. Yeah. I will put another thing in. I love ice cream. So strawberry filled.
When you because you said cauli. When I think of cauli, I think of ice cream.
Well, is that ice cream or is it gelato?
Oh, yeah. I guess it's technically gelato. Right? Let's do right by them. So it's amazing.
It's delicious.
How about that?
It is very good. That place yeah. When I used to go to Ghent, we used to go or when I used live in Ghent, we we would go there every once in a while. The Yeah. Great place.
Downtown downtown Crystal Brown. I don't know if you recognize this, but you're over an hour.
I know. I am over an hour.
You did great.
Wonderful. Made it.
You made it.
Way to go, slugger. I don't I got nothing else to say. Is there anything else you wanna say? Because I was supposed to ask that before, but I forgot. We kinda end with, like, two questions.
I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. What else what else is there to say? I guess I would say this, which is, you know, starting a business is is exciting.
It's amazing. I I love the passion that business owners put into it. I share that passion, but I think that also too. Just wanna make sure that everyone is setting their passion up for success in the future. You know?
Protect your product, protect your brand, protect yourself. That's that's all I gotta say about that. Sometimes you need a lawyer to do that. So have that conversation.
Yeah. I guess on top of that, sometimes you have to slow down so you can speed up.
That's true.
Yeah. Yeah.
Will we see you at the StartUp World Cup August twenty first at the Sandler Center in Virginia Beach?
I don't know. Maybe.
We better.
Okay. Sounds good. Alright.
We appreciate everything today downtown, Crystal Brown. This is great. It's just memory muscle memory now. Like, it's I don't even know your real name. It's just downtown.
Well, my real name's still in there, so that's fair. I like it. That works.
We appreciate your time. This is great. You you did wonderful. It was your first time ever on the podcast. And Thank you.
Was listening. Thanks for listening. Like, download, subscribe. Peace.
Bye Bye.