Welcome back to the Digital Marketing Podcast, brought to
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My name's Daniel Rose, and in this episode we are talking human first marketing.
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So in this episode we have an interview with Phil t Trias Evans and
Phil has written a book called Human First Marketing, and we get a lot of
emails from people reaching out and saying, I've got a book to promote.
Can we come on the podcast?
And sadly, very often the answer's no for one reason or another that
we can't fit into the schedule.
We've had too much content of a particular type, whatever it might be.
And.
I'd said to Phil, we were absolutely kind of back to back for the end of the year.
We'd have to kind of put a pin in it and come back to next year and he said, well,
I'll send you a copy of your book anyway.
And he very kindly sent me a copy of the book and I picked it up and
started reading it and was kind of hooked and it does seem to resonate.
So then I got back in contact, went actually come on the podcast.
That will be great.
So Phil was very patient and very kindly still came on the podcast
and I think it's a really important read at the moment because.
We've spoken about this a little bit previously where everything is ai,
where we can differentiate is with the human aspect of what we do.
And I've mentioned that quote before.
So it's Professor Celia Moore at Imperial College that said to me,
when everything's AI and deepfake, we need to lean into our humanity.
I think it's never been more true because if everyone's got this functionality,
everyone's got these tools, then how do we really stand out in the crowd?
And that's what the book's all about.
So I thought it was really great timing.
Phil's obviously been thinking about this for a while because there's, lots of
people talk about it now, but obviously the book was written a little while ago.
So, uh, I think there's some really good insights, really good way of thinking
about things, and it might give you a nice way to structure thinking about where you
use ai, but also where you don't use ai.
So, over to the interview.
Daniel Rowles: Right.
I am here with Phil.
Let's get straight into it and let's get into the bold kind of opening statement.
So marketing's not working.
So you open the book up by talking about it not working.
What's the shift and, you know, how do we respond to that?
What does it mean?
Phil Treagus-Evans: yeah.
Typically I'm a glass half full kind of guy, but it's quite a
negative way to open the book,
Daniel Rowles: I think it's a really valuable 'cause we were just talking
before we started this and just saying.
I don't remember.
A more fast changing time in marketing
Phil Treagus-Evans: Yeah.
Daniel Rowles: taking a step back becomes really important,
so to talk us through it,
Phil Treagus-Evans: Yeah.
So there's a few things that I've noticed in running the agency that I run
and working with lots of brands and it the three sort of main factors for why
marketing isn't working like it used to.
One is ad saturation, just the sheer amount of advertising that we are sort of.
Presented with every single day.
Daniel Rowles: right?
Phil Treagus-Evans: It's a crazy amount.
I think one study put about 360 something adverts a day.
And that our ability to remember them, apparently, we can only recall 12.
So you think how much money is being spent on
Daniel Rowles: Right.
Phil Treagus-Evans: people don't even remember?
The second is trust and I think.
There's a, we're in a trust deficit now, rather than starting from a
place of trust is there to be lost.
It's something we have to earn.
and the third thing is that with ai, and we were talking about this before
we came on, how fast it's evolving.
It is creating even more distrust because people are questioning what's
real, what's not, what's authentic.
And I think that as more people use AI for their marketing, we're
seeing a homogenization of marketing content where everything is
starting to sound and look the same.
and as a result, things aren't working as well as they were.
And human first marketing is my antidote that we've used a giraffe
and seen good results and yeah, I wanted to put it in a book so that
people could use it for themselves.
Daniel Rowles: So let's talk about that then.
So, so what is human first marketing?
How would you kind of define it, and then how is that different
from kind of traditional approaches to marketing of having a
particular tone or something else?
Phil Treagus-Evans: Sure, I think you could argue that human first marketing
is quite traditional in the sense
Daniel Rowles: Right.
Phil Treagus-Evans: sort of advocating for going back a little bit.
but really it's about putting people at the heart of the strategy.
So starting with people, and there's kind of two sides to that.
So one side of that is your customers and deeply understanding your customers
and involving them in your marketing so that they can develop into advocates.
other side of it is your team and yourself and your executives, and.
Putting your team more to the front with your marketing strategy so that
people can see them through methods like employee advocacy or you know,
exec comms or these sorts of things.
And a lot of the work that we do at Draft now is actually working with
large organizations and helping their executive teams have a social presence
and helping them install employee advocacy programs that allow their teams to
promote the business in a way that feels.
Authentic.
Really the whole framework that I put together is built on four main principles.
of those is people, so as I just mentioned, including people and
sort of building around that.
The second is authenticity.
It's the word we all love to hate.
Sort of lost its meaning slightly, which I'm sure we're
we'll talk about at some point.
Connection, focusing on.
Interactions over transactions, a bit more purpose with that.
the final one is purpose.
And when I say purpose, I sort of mean there's two sides to this.
One is purpose in the sense of being a business that's trying to
do good for people and for planet.
And then the other side is purpose in terms of being intentional.
I've lost track of the amount of businesses that I speak to when I say.
You know what, why are you looking for some support?
And they say, we're just sort of posting to social media, or we're
just putting marketing content out because we know we're supposed to, but
there's not really a strategy or Yeah.
Any purpose behind what they're doing.
and that's obviously really key.
So those are the four principles that it's built upon.
Daniel Rowles: Yeah that last one is a, it's been a constant kind of
song for marketing for a long time.
It's like, and social media has been the bane of this, I think, just 'cause
we know we have to be there, but we're not sure what to do and therefore
it just doesn't get any traction.
But just keep doing more of the same stuff.
So
Phil Treagus-Evans: Yeah.
Daniel Rowles: feel that one completely.
Phil Treagus-Evans: certain characters in the world of marketing who
always preaching the post more.
You've gotta be posting more like hustle culture and these sorts of things.
And people feel like they need to be posting every hour if they're
gonna have a chance, you know?
And it's.
It just rubbish.
I just don't think it's true.
We're always big fans of quality over quantity, and if you're
posting just nonsense and for no reason, it doesn't matter how many
times you put it out there, right?
It's still gonna be the same.
So I think it's important to start with strategy and actually have
a reason for like, what are we actually doing here and what are
we trying to provide our audience?
Where's the value for them?
how are we measuring this?
So yeah, that's always something that we come back to.
Daniel Rowles: And just when I was doing some research this interview this, one
of the points you just made there was interesting because there was a stat
from work with the World Advertising Research Council and they were saying
you're now 12 times more likely to engage with a person than you are or the brand.
So that whole piece of actually internal advocacy, our team speaking on our
behalf, our team representing the brands suddenly makes more sense and that.
Of, you know, social media is supposed to be social, not
just the brand broadcasting.
Phil Treagus-Evans: Exactly and this is kind of what, when I say we
are we're almost going back is that think we do need to get back to the
basics of reminding ourselves that.
Business is just a group of people, right?
And customers are another group of people.
So we kind of lost that.
I think things like data and branding and we've kind of lost that mentality.
And we sort of hide behind corporate facades on one side and then
sort of use our customers as data points in a spreadsheet on the ava.
And because of that, we've lost the humanity a little bit.
And when you then.
the humanity back in.
You see the results, you see how people engage with it and react.
And you are spot on.
You only have to look at LinkedIn, right?
So LinkedIn and see what percentage of the posts you're seeing are from people and
what percentage are from company pages.
And it's very clear what the algorithm is wanting us to see.
And it's is people, and it's because people trust people over logos and brands.
Daniel Rowles: I think there's also a natural little kind of just quick segue
with that as well, in that generative engine optimization, suddenly the large
language models looking at content.
Well, one of the things we've immediately seen is actually they don't have
all that data that Google's got.
So what they're looking at is.
What are people saying about you?
How many people are saying it?
Are they saying nice things about you as well?
Well, suddenly this human first marketing approach leans into
that really nicely as well.
'cause you're building that advocacy as well.
So I thought it was quite interesting.
Phil Treagus-Evans: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, I mean, the word that I just kept coming back to in the book is trust.
think the world around us is becoming more and more artificial, you know,
and based on data, it's, I think the trust element is gonna be more
important than it's ever been.
Daniel Rowles: Do you know, it's interesting, it aligns with the,
we have a professor of ethics at Imperial College, a lovely lady called
Professor Celia Moore, and she has this lovely expression she used when
she does training sessions, which is when everything's AI and deep fake, we
need to lean into our humanity, and I think this leans into this perfectly so
Phil Treagus-Evans: it warms my heart whenever I see anyone saying something
like that, 'cause it's like, yes, that's exactly what we need to be doing.
Daniel Rowles: So, so on that note, how do we, with our audiences, how
do we kind of go beyond demographics?
So if we really wanna understand our audiences a bit more,
go beyond that surface level data, what does that look like?
Phil Treagus-Evans: Yeah, so this is one of the things that I think people
find a little bit controversial that I detest customer avatars whether
that's just because I've had to make hundreds of them over my career I
think, to be honest with you I find them a little bit insulting.
I think when you just focus on demographics, you are lacking any depth.
You know, you tend to do the research in terms of age, location, job title,
maybe, and then you make the assumptions on things like emotions and pain
points and these sorts of things.
And I'm.
Fighting the fight for the, to rethink how we do customer research
and sort of introduced in the book a a new framework for doing it.
And it's something we use at giraffe I've called it the empath framework and.
Each of the letters stands for something because, you know,
if you can turn something into an acronym, why wouldn't you?
and the E is for emotional understanding, and this is about understanding
what your customers are feeling.
And one of the easiest ways and quickest ways to do this is to copy and paste
all of your reviews from every platform into one Word document, and then do
the same for your competitor reviews.
then.
You know, I know I'm the human first guy here, but then put it into chat,
GBT and say, pick out the emotions.
Do some analysis on what emotion emotional words are appearing, how often they're
appearing, and create almost like a word map of what comes up the most.
And this is gonna give you a really quick idea of how your customers are feeling.
The aim is market and trend research.
So what is actually shaping their world at the moment,
culturally, economically, socially.
The P is patterns of behavior.
So how did they actually act?
You know, looking at your website data, for example, or your social media
analytics, are they actually doing?
What are they clicking?
What are they buying, what are they avoiding?
Think about these things.
Then it's audience feedback, and this is a pretty revolutionary idea,
but it's about actually speaking to your customers and and sort of asking
them about what they're feeling.
Why did they choose you?
Why did they not?
Were there any red flags in the sales process?
Who else were they considering?
the final one T is team feedback.
And again, this is, I think, a bit of an oversight that there's no one in
your business really who understands your customers more than salespeople
and customer service people because they're speaking to them all day.
And we often don't really include them in marketing decisions or marketing research.
They're just an absolute wealth of knowledge.
So including that as well.
And then the h is the outcome.
So you combine all of those things and create what I call a human
understanding map, where we're not trying to put people into a neat
box and say, this is this segment.
We're instead understanding our audience as the messy, but
beautiful humans that they are.
Daniel Rowles: I love it.
And you talked about that, the kind of two sides of the human equation.
You've got your customers, but you've got your team as well.
So it brings us nice into that so that team, the culture, the values.
Let's come back to that authenticity word as well.
Phil Treagus-Evans: Sure.
Daniel Rowles: how do the company values and the team dynamics kinda shape that
and how does it shape what your target audience end up seeing and feeling?
Phil Treagus-Evans: Yeah, so when I was writing the book, I started writing
a lot about the techniques that, you know, I would advise people to use,
but I had this nagging voice in the back of my head that a lot of them,
because they're so human focused.
If you don't have good company culture
And values and yeah, like a level of authenticity, some of them won't work.
You know, you take something like employee advocacy.
We were doing a panel not that long ago and talking about the benefits
of employee advocacy and on.
Put the hand up and said, yeah, but how do we control what our employees say and
how do we know they'll say anything good?
They might say negative things.
And thought, ah.
If that's the worry,
Daniel Rowles: Yeah.
Phil Treagus-Evans: you have bigger problems than marketing.
You know, you should be focused on building a brand and a
culture internally where.
People want to post to social media.
They want to talk about their job and the company they work for.
And I think that's the starting point, and it's the foundation
that all of this is built on.
You know, we talk a lot of giraffe about turning great culture into great content.
And a lot of what we do is based on that understanding the culture of our clients,
what makes them unique, what makes them special and building content around that.
So yeah, it was sort of a. It wasn't in the plan.
And then when I was writing the book, I thought, I think I need to touch on
how to develop a better culture and better values in terms of authenticity.
Which yeah, is one of those words that you, if you work in marketing,
you kind of hear it every 30 seconds.
and as a result, I think people have sort of stopped taking it seriously.
But authenticity is everything.
And I really think that during the pandemic especially, we kind of
saw that, we were stuck at home.
were using social media more than ever because everyone was bored
at home scrolling their phones.
But making content was harder than ever because again, we were at home.
We weren't in a studio with lighting and, you know, all of the
equipment we need and other people.
So we were forced as marketers to adapt.
the way we adapted was, let's make slightly lower quality content.
As a result, it felt far more real and authentic.
And it wasn't polished and it wasn't perfect.
And the weirdest thing happened, people loved it.
The engagement levels went up.
And we've seen since the pandemic that people are still
producing this style of content.
You know, it's even called lo-fi content now.
It has its own name.
to me that's authenticity and practice.
Another great example.
Is the book itself.
So, naturally writing a book about human first marketing, I would be the world's
biggest hypocrite if I didn't use Human first marketing to, to promote it, right?
So what I did along the way was just completely share the journey.
It's the first book I've ever written.
I had no idea what I was doing, and I shared the whole thing on LinkedIn.
Just kept updating everyone on how many words I'd written, what I was working on,
what I was struggling with, being sort of quite vulnerable about the process,
asking for help where I needed it.
things like sharing the cover designs to get people to vote on it,
Daniel Rowles: Right.
Phil Treagus-Evans: helping me nail down a title.
What happened was because of the authenticity of me being
completely transparent about this process, people felt like
they were on the journey with me.
by the time the book came out, there was this sort of community of people who
were rallying behind it that personally believe is the reason it became a
bestseller on day one, was that there were so many people who'd followed along.
They felt ownership over it.
They wanted to see it do well.
yeah, to me that's authenticity in, in practice.
Daniel Rowles: I love that because that idea come across,
you know, a thousand true fans.
That idea that if you can have, and I don't think it
needs to be a thousand either.
If you've got a group full of people that really do love your stuff, are
passionate, will share it, and so on, that amplifies everything that
you're doing massively as well.
And I think for this podcast, one of the things that at the beginning, I mean,
we're talking many years ago, like 15 years ago when we started, was that.
It wasn't, how are you gonna make your first million?
It was kind of more, oh, I did that.
That was disaster.
That didn't work.
But that, yeah, that was right.
That did work.
Why did it work?
And it was more those discussions about being, you know, honest
about it that really made it resonate with people though.
It's like, oh, I'm struggling as well.
Right.
I can connect to this.
So I think it's really interesting.
So how do you think, you know, trust is a big theme throughout the book.
How do we earn trust now?
And what's some practical ways that we can do that?
Phil Treagus-Evans: Yeah, I think the first thing is to acknowledge and
accept for, as I mentioned earlier, we are starting from a trust deficit.
The trust in organizations, trust in executives, media, government
Is at a low.
As a result of that.
It isn't enough to just show up.
We need to be thinking more about proactively building trust one of the
best ways to do that is to be visible.
And I think that executive teams in brands, I think it's getting
better I know it's getting better from the fact that we get asked more
and more about it, a giraffe that people are wanting to do this, but.
The leadership teams of businesses should be visible.
People should be able to see what they're up to, what they're
working on, there needs to be a level of transparency as well.
So for me, when it comes to building trust.
first thing I think of is visibility.
Be
Daniel Rowles: Right.
Phil Treagus-Evans: be open.
Talk about what you're working on, what's not working.
If mistakes are made, own them and actually be really transparent about,
Hey look, we're trying to do this.
And it hasn't worked.
One of the examples I always think of is, and it's one of my favorite brands of all
time, Lego you know, they are working very hard to try and become more sustainable.
And when you boil it down.
They're a company that sells plastic bricks.
Like not ideal, right?
I mean, you know, plastics were told repeatedly are bad they tried something
a few years back where they were going to start making their bricks from a
recycled, I think it was like bottles.
And essentially it just didn't work.
It, they the durability of it just didn't work, but because they were completely
transparent the whole way through, and so, look, we're trialing this.
And then they were just as transparent to say it didn't work.
But we're gonna have to go back to the drawing board.
People respected it because, you know, you're not just publishing the wins.
You're actually saying, look, this is the journey we're on.
It's not gonna be all ups.
There's gonna be some downs.
And because they had a track record of.
trying to be more sustainable.
There was a story there that people could buy into and believe.
I think as a result of that, you do see more trust in the brand and
when you have more trust, you have more license to make mistakes.
And you know, when there's a crisis, people are more forgiving and sort of
Daniel Rowles: Yeah.
Phil Treagus-Evans: it.
So, yeah.
Daniel Rowles: You mentioned it earlier on, and just to jump off
again a tangent slightly for a second.
You mentioned hustle culture earlier on.
Do you think there is a, we've developed this thing in digital marketing startups
in tech world about, you know, the hustle culture post every 20 seconds,
sleep, you know, one hour a day, all this kind of, you know, stuff and everyone.
Portrays it, but everyone is, maybe it's not realistic.
It's not really, you know, it's not possible for most people.
Is that a complete counter to human first marketing, or do you
think the two things can coexist?
Phil Treagus-Evans: I dunno if it's a complete counter, but it's, I think
it's dangerous and I'm saying that from someone who was susceptible to
In, in my sort of early days as an entrepreneur, working ridiculous hours
it felt like that was the only way.
To be successful, to be deemed a success.
To be completely frank, Daniel it drove me to anxiety.
I,
Daniel Rowles: Yeah.
Phil Treagus-Evans: struggled with my mental health and I think a lot of that
was this external pressure of people were, and they still are in some corners
of the internet, just posting success.
This has happened.
Oh, we've signed 10 clients this week.
We've done that.
I think the reality as you get older is you realize that no one
really knows what they're doing.
It is just really pretending how well you are doing.
Everyone's still figuring it out, and I think that's why being a little bit
more vulnerable and honest drives up the engagement because people are just
craving something real that doesn't make them feel bad about themselves.
Daniel Rowles: Yeah, there's a couple of nice examples
we'll put into the show notes.
So target internet.com/podcast.
But from, if you look at the stuff that Rand Fishkins done where he
tried to kind of oppose that culture and say, actually we can work hard,
but we can work effectively and we don't need two ridiculous hours.
Then if you look at stuff that Jay Sch Delson does on the do this, not that
podcast where he is just completely authentic and just talks about, and
he's just written a book, which is actually on a similar kind of topic.
And I've seen him speak so many times.
I just think the human aspect of that is what you, connects you to him completely.
So, I think it's lovely kind of segue into some of those people as well, so.
The whole piece about leadership then.
So if you want to make a strong case for leaders being visible
online, why is it so important and how does that strengthen the brand?
How does that strengthen the culture?
Phil Treagus-Evans: I think leadership has an opportunity because.
Daniel Rowles: I.
Phil Treagus-Evans: Their voices are listened to.
Right.
So it's, an opportunity and I think social media is the ultimate platform
for especially a platform like LinkedIn for the leaders of a company to be
open about what they're working on and what's been going well internally.
That, and I don't have the stats to hand, but that there's research done into.
People wanting to work for companies where the leadership
are visible, trusting the brand,
Daniel Rowles: Yeah.
Phil Treagus-Evans: employee advocacy, if they can see that the leadership
team are being really active on social media and celebrating the culture
and the work that they're doing.
And even things like shouting out team members and saying, I just wanna draw
attention to this person on our team.
We did something amazing this week.
These things are they build trust, but they also build
culture in the company itself.
And almost like social proof at scale because.
A leadership's voice can attract talent, it can open doors, it
can elevate brand perception.
And I think too many executives hide behind not doing things on
social media, and missing a trick.
They're really missing a trick, and it's something that we are always
encouraging our clients to to do more of.
Daniel Rowles: I think from that, particularly from that talent
acquisition point of view as well.
If you look at, you know, if we're competing for talent and those people
wanna see what the brand stands for and really does it stand for anything?
Yeah.
What is the value of the brand?
I think it's a huge opportunity for kind of doing that.
So.
Phil Treagus-Evans: it's something that we looked at giraffe because I'm naturally
quite introverted, and it was only about four or five years ago that we thought
we, we really need to be more visible.
And so I spent a lot more time on my own LinkedIn presence and being on podcasts
and obviously eventually writing the book.
Because yeah, it's, and we've seen the results.
We've seen people who want to work for giraffe because they're aware of this
human first marketing movement that we're trying to sort of initiate and
believe in it and they know what we're about and they want to be involved.
It's been really exciting actually to see that.
Daniel Rowles: So I think you've written the book a very interesting time because
obviously AI was well underway, kind of the, or the generative AI was well
underway, but it's obviously just ramped up even since you published as well.
So with AI playing that bigger role, how do we make sure the human isn't lost
and what opport opportunities open up?
And I've seen from your stuff already, it's not that we're saying AI is bad,
it's just that we need to be careful.
Phil Treagus-Evans: Yeah, I always say that I'm not anti ai, I'm anti lazy ai.
And I think, I mean, everyone's using it, right?
I think even people who are pretending that they don't are and I think the
reason people are pretending is because there's no nuance in AI anymore.
I think it's, people seem to even think it's the best thing ever,
and you should be embracing it or it's evil and if you use it.
You're not doing it properly.
I personally think we need more nuance, and I think that comes with
having discussions and having in place
Daniel Rowles: Right.
Phil Treagus-Evans: Hey, like this is where we're gonna draw the line.
This is everything, this side we are happy to use AI for and everything.
This side we don't want to at this point, just keen for AI not to replace humanity.
If you want AI to analyze data or, you know, organize things
or summarize articles or these sorts of things, amazing.
I think it's brilliant for that and then actually, one of the most interesting
and effective ways I've used it is.
as a sparring partner.
Daniel Rowles: Right.
Phil Treagus-Evans: when I was writing the book to say, like, I'd upload a
chapter and be like, why am I wrong?
Like, tell me why I'm
To make it challenge me and sort of give me a contradictory
opinion to what I was thinking.
And to me is like, that's amazing.
I mean, that's the most valuable way I've used it so far.
But.
In terms of what we're seeing with marketing.
As I mentioned earlier, everything is starting to look and sound the same.
when that is the case, believe that the competitive edge now
Daniel Rowles: Yeah.
Phil Treagus-Evans: humanity.
No one can replicate the people in your team, your experiences.
Rick Rubin, who's an absolute hero of mine, like one of the
best music producers of all
Daniel Rowles: I saw the quote in chapter one.
Yeah.
Phil Treagus-Evans: I just love Rick Ruben.
I wish he was my friend.
Daniel Rowles: Maybe we'll be after this.
Phil Treagus-Evans: Yeah.
Maybe that's my goal.
Yeah.
Is eventually.
But he talked about this idea that if you had a really good movie script
and you gave it to five different AI tools and asked it to produce
a film, would end up with five films that are relatively similar.
whereas if you gave the same script to five humans.
are gonna get radically different films because all of those people
have seen different movies, they've had different experiences, they
interpret things differently.
And it comes back to sort of point of view, right?
We all have a different point of view if we just outsource all of our marketing
and ideas to ai, we're gonna lose that.
So for me, it's, as I say, it's the competitive edge now is being more human,
Daniel Rowles: Well, I'm fascinated.
'cause if you look at Google's path of this right, for content, so they
come out four years ago and go.
AI content, no, you must not have it.
Then they come out and say, good content's, good content,
don't care how you create it.
And then they come out, well, oh, it's complex.
And then E comes along and it's like experience,
expertise, authorit, and trust.
It's saying you have to put the human element in because if you don't,
then it's just AI slop and it's just gonna, so I think it's interesting.
Even the algorithms are trying to reward actually the human element
in this is what's important.
It's your experience, it's your expertise.
It's what unique you bring to the table as well.
So.
Phil Treagus-Evans: Google is thrashing around at the moment.
Like
That had, I'm all trying to figure out how it's gonna coexist.
All of this stuff.
Daniel Rowles: Yeah it's very interesting and I think actually as we are in this
increasing kind of no click environment, people aren't clicking in search,
they're not clicking in social media.
That differentiation is really what's gonna make brands kind of stand out.
So I think it's very interesting timing.
So Phil, how can people get in contact?
Tell us a little bit about the agency if people wanna reach out
and kind of see what you do as well.
Phil Treagus-Evans: Yeah, sure.
So, the agency I run called Giraffe Social, we are a social media
specialist agency that focuses on.
Perhaps in what we preach and using Human First Marketing with all of our clients.
The book is on Amazon and various other places, but Amazon's probably
the easiest place to source it.
And I'm probably the best way for me is LinkedIn.
So if you want to connect or ask me anything, is kind of where I'm
probably too much time these days.
Daniel Rowles: We'll put all those links into show notes,
so target internet.com/podcast.
We'll link through to the book, through to the agency and through
to Phil's profile on LinkedIn.
So Phil, thank you so much for joining us.
Lots to think about and hopefully we'll see you again on the
Digital Marketing podcast.
Phil Treagus-Evans: Thanks Daniel.
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