1 00:00:00,049 --> 00:00:02,480 Welcome back to the Digital Marketing Podcast, brought to 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:03,920 you by target internet.com. 3 00:00:04,670 --> 00:00:08,750 My name's Daniel Rose, and in this episode we are talking human first marketing. 4 00:00:16,155 --> 00:00:19,695 Before we get going, just a quick message to say, if you fancy spending half a day 5 00:00:19,695 --> 00:00:24,255 with me every month, a Target internet membership is currently a half price at 6 00:00:24,255 --> 00:00:29,025 just 30 pounds a month, and you get access to our live half day master classes. 7 00:00:29,025 --> 00:00:30,405 So those are run by me. 8 00:00:30,795 --> 00:00:32,535 Uh, you get access loads of other stuff as well. 9 00:00:32,825 --> 00:00:33,965 We are covering. 10 00:00:34,055 --> 00:00:36,005 Latest trends in digital marketing. 11 00:00:36,095 --> 00:00:41,045 Uh, the latest AI updates, optimizing for AI overviews and loads of other stuff. 12 00:00:41,135 --> 00:00:45,605 So I hope to meet you on a masterclass at some point very soon. 13 00:00:45,605 --> 00:00:48,755 Get over to target internet.com and you can see the special offer over there. 14 00:00:50,980 --> 00:00:54,700 So in this episode we have an interview with Phil t Trias Evans and 15 00:00:54,700 --> 00:00:59,350 Phil has written a book called Human First Marketing, and we get a lot of 16 00:00:59,350 --> 00:01:02,230 emails from people reaching out and saying, I've got a book to promote. 17 00:01:02,690 --> 00:01:04,010 Can we come on the podcast? 18 00:01:04,557 --> 00:01:07,627 And sadly, very often the answer's no for one reason or another that 19 00:01:07,707 --> 00:01:09,027 we can't fit into the schedule. 20 00:01:09,027 --> 00:01:11,667 We've had too much content of a particular type, whatever it might be. 21 00:01:12,157 --> 00:01:12,787 And. 22 00:01:13,377 --> 00:01:16,707 I'd said to Phil, we were absolutely kind of back to back for the end of the year. 23 00:01:17,277 --> 00:01:19,797 We'd have to kind of put a pin in it and come back to next year and he said, well, 24 00:01:19,797 --> 00:01:21,117 I'll send you a copy of your book anyway. 25 00:01:21,537 --> 00:01:24,957 And he very kindly sent me a copy of the book and I picked it up and 26 00:01:24,957 --> 00:01:28,887 started reading it and was kind of hooked and it does seem to resonate. 27 00:01:28,887 --> 00:01:31,587 So then I got back in contact, went actually come on the podcast. 28 00:01:31,587 --> 00:01:32,247 That will be great. 29 00:01:32,707 --> 00:01:35,467 So Phil was very patient and very kindly still came on the podcast 30 00:01:36,307 --> 00:01:39,217 and I think it's a really important read at the moment because. 31 00:01:39,632 --> 00:01:43,652 We've spoken about this a little bit previously where everything is ai, 32 00:01:44,282 --> 00:01:48,752 where we can differentiate is with the human aspect of what we do. 33 00:01:49,952 --> 00:01:52,382 And I've mentioned that quote before. 34 00:01:52,382 --> 00:01:55,892 So it's Professor Celia Moore at Imperial College that said to me, 35 00:01:56,192 --> 00:01:59,462 when everything's AI and deepfake, we need to lean into our humanity. 36 00:02:00,452 --> 00:02:04,382 I think it's never been more true because if everyone's got this functionality, 37 00:02:04,382 --> 00:02:07,382 everyone's got these tools, then how do we really stand out in the crowd? 38 00:02:07,532 --> 00:02:08,397 And that's what the book's all about. 39 00:02:09,597 --> 00:02:11,157 So I thought it was really great timing. 40 00:02:11,217 --> 00:02:14,157 Phil's obviously been thinking about this for a while because there's, lots of 41 00:02:14,157 --> 00:02:16,647 people talk about it now, but obviously the book was written a little while ago. 42 00:02:16,977 --> 00:02:20,277 So, uh, I think there's some really good insights, really good way of thinking 43 00:02:20,277 --> 00:02:24,117 about things, and it might give you a nice way to structure thinking about where you 44 00:02:24,117 --> 00:02:27,237 use ai, but also where you don't use ai. 45 00:02:27,537 --> 00:02:29,217 So, over to the interview. 46 00:02:31,668 --> 00:02:32,028 Daniel Rowles: Right. 47 00:02:32,028 --> 00:02:33,408 I am here with Phil. 48 00:02:33,458 --> 00:02:38,048 Let's get straight into it and let's get into the bold kind of opening statement. 49 00:02:38,048 --> 00:02:39,458 So marketing's not working. 50 00:02:39,818 --> 00:02:41,948 So you open the book up by talking about it not working. 51 00:02:42,118 --> 00:02:44,788 What's the shift and, you know, how do we respond to that? 52 00:02:44,788 --> 00:02:45,298 What does it mean? 53 00:02:45,838 --> 00:02:46,228 Phil Treagus-Evans: yeah. 54 00:02:46,228 --> 00:02:48,658 Typically I'm a glass half full kind of guy, but it's quite a 55 00:02:48,658 --> 00:02:49,874 negative way to open the book, 56 00:02:50,082 --> 00:02:52,302 Daniel Rowles: I think it's a really valuable 'cause we were just talking 57 00:02:52,302 --> 00:02:53,802 before we started this and just saying. 58 00:02:54,487 --> 00:02:55,477 I don't remember. 59 00:02:55,477 --> 00:02:57,637 A more fast changing time in marketing 60 00:02:57,922 --> 00:02:58,522 Phil Treagus-Evans: Yeah. 61 00:02:58,747 --> 00:03:00,547 Daniel Rowles: taking a step back becomes really important, 62 00:03:00,547 --> 00:03:01,597 so to talk us through it, 63 00:03:01,882 --> 00:03:02,152 Phil Treagus-Evans: Yeah. 64 00:03:02,152 --> 00:03:06,652 So there's a few things that I've noticed in running the agency that I run 65 00:03:06,752 --> 00:03:10,297 and working with lots of brands and it the three sort of main factors for why 66 00:03:10,297 --> 00:03:12,547 marketing isn't working like it used to. 67 00:03:12,847 --> 00:03:17,947 One is ad saturation, just the sheer amount of advertising that we are sort of. 68 00:03:18,787 --> 00:03:20,467 Presented with every single day. 69 00:03:20,542 --> 00:03:20,842 Daniel Rowles: right? 70 00:03:21,217 --> 00:03:22,267 Phil Treagus-Evans: It's a crazy amount. 71 00:03:22,267 --> 00:03:26,347 I think one study put about 360 something adverts a day. 72 00:03:26,827 --> 00:03:30,667 And that our ability to remember them, apparently, we can only recall 12. 73 00:03:32,017 --> 00:03:33,967 So you think how much money is being spent on 74 00:03:34,182 --> 00:03:34,532 Daniel Rowles: Right. 75 00:03:34,687 --> 00:03:35,767 Phil Treagus-Evans: people don't even remember? 76 00:03:36,197 --> 00:03:37,857 The second is trust and I think. 77 00:03:38,652 --> 00:03:42,462 There's a, we're in a trust deficit now, rather than starting from a 78 00:03:42,462 --> 00:03:44,562 place of trust is there to be lost. 79 00:03:44,562 --> 00:03:45,882 It's something we have to earn. 80 00:03:46,722 --> 00:03:50,922 and the third thing is that with ai, and we were talking about this before 81 00:03:50,922 --> 00:03:52,932 we came on, how fast it's evolving. 82 00:03:53,327 --> 00:03:57,827 It is creating even more distrust because people are questioning what's 83 00:03:57,827 --> 00:03:59,837 real, what's not, what's authentic. 84 00:04:00,437 --> 00:04:04,637 And I think that as more people use AI for their marketing, we're 85 00:04:04,637 --> 00:04:08,127 seeing a homogenization of marketing content where everything is 86 00:04:08,127 --> 00:04:10,707 starting to sound and look the same. 87 00:04:11,967 --> 00:04:14,847 and as a result, things aren't working as well as they were. 88 00:04:14,847 --> 00:04:19,007 And human first marketing is my antidote that we've used a giraffe 89 00:04:19,007 --> 00:04:22,787 and seen good results and yeah, I wanted to put it in a book so that 90 00:04:22,787 --> 00:04:24,427 people could use it for themselves. 91 00:04:24,927 --> 00:04:26,122 Daniel Rowles: So let's talk about that then. 92 00:04:26,242 --> 00:04:27,802 So, so what is human first marketing? 93 00:04:27,802 --> 00:04:31,732 How would you kind of define it, and then how is that different 94 00:04:31,732 --> 00:04:33,832 from kind of traditional approaches to marketing of having a 95 00:04:33,832 --> 00:04:34,867 particular tone or something else? 96 00:04:35,647 --> 00:04:38,567 Phil Treagus-Evans: Sure, I think you could argue that human first marketing 97 00:04:38,777 --> 00:04:40,487 is quite traditional in the sense 98 00:04:40,692 --> 00:04:41,042 Daniel Rowles: Right. 99 00:04:41,417 --> 00:04:44,147 Phil Treagus-Evans: sort of advocating for going back a little bit. 100 00:04:45,287 --> 00:04:48,122 but really it's about putting people at the heart of the strategy. 101 00:04:49,162 --> 00:04:53,542 So starting with people, and there's kind of two sides to that. 102 00:04:53,542 --> 00:04:58,942 So one side of that is your customers and deeply understanding your customers 103 00:04:58,972 --> 00:05:03,622 and involving them in your marketing so that they can develop into advocates. 104 00:05:04,402 --> 00:05:08,362 other side of it is your team and yourself and your executives, and. 105 00:05:09,992 --> 00:05:13,682 Putting your team more to the front with your marketing strategy so that 106 00:05:13,682 --> 00:05:18,582 people can see them through methods like employee advocacy or you know, 107 00:05:18,582 --> 00:05:20,502 exec comms or these sorts of things. 108 00:05:20,502 --> 00:05:24,402 And a lot of the work that we do at Draft now is actually working with 109 00:05:24,402 --> 00:05:28,862 large organizations and helping their executive teams have a social presence 110 00:05:28,862 --> 00:05:34,082 and helping them install employee advocacy programs that allow their teams to 111 00:05:34,082 --> 00:05:35,852 promote the business in a way that feels. 112 00:05:36,152 --> 00:05:36,932 Authentic. 113 00:05:37,112 --> 00:05:42,182 Really the whole framework that I put together is built on four main principles. 114 00:05:42,962 --> 00:05:46,322 of those is people, so as I just mentioned, including people and 115 00:05:46,322 --> 00:05:47,522 sort of building around that. 116 00:05:47,672 --> 00:05:49,292 The second is authenticity. 117 00:05:49,712 --> 00:05:51,062 It's the word we all love to hate. 118 00:05:51,542 --> 00:05:53,492 Sort of lost its meaning slightly, which I'm sure we're 119 00:05:53,522 --> 00:05:54,452 we'll talk about at some point. 120 00:05:54,882 --> 00:05:56,952 Connection, focusing on. 121 00:05:57,752 --> 00:06:01,892 Interactions over transactions, a bit more purpose with that. 122 00:06:02,552 --> 00:06:03,662 the final one is purpose. 123 00:06:03,662 --> 00:06:07,212 And when I say purpose, I sort of mean there's two sides to this. 124 00:06:07,212 --> 00:06:10,692 One is purpose in the sense of being a business that's trying to 125 00:06:10,692 --> 00:06:13,392 do good for people and for planet. 126 00:06:13,752 --> 00:06:17,442 And then the other side is purpose in terms of being intentional. 127 00:06:19,242 --> 00:06:22,847 I've lost track of the amount of businesses that I speak to when I say. 128 00:06:23,847 --> 00:06:25,827 You know what, why are you looking for some support? 129 00:06:25,827 --> 00:06:30,257 And they say, we're just sort of posting to social media, or we're 130 00:06:30,257 --> 00:06:34,457 just putting marketing content out because we know we're supposed to, but 131 00:06:34,547 --> 00:06:37,127 there's not really a strategy or Yeah. 132 00:06:37,127 --> 00:06:39,077 Any purpose behind what they're doing. 133 00:06:40,487 --> 00:06:41,837 and that's obviously really key. 134 00:06:41,837 --> 00:06:44,507 So those are the four principles that it's built upon. 135 00:06:45,257 --> 00:06:47,687 Daniel Rowles: Yeah that last one is a, it's been a constant kind of 136 00:06:47,687 --> 00:06:49,217 song for marketing for a long time. 137 00:06:49,217 --> 00:06:51,647 It's like, and social media has been the bane of this, I think, just 'cause 138 00:06:51,917 --> 00:06:54,407 we know we have to be there, but we're not sure what to do and therefore 139 00:06:54,407 --> 00:06:55,337 it just doesn't get any traction. 140 00:06:55,337 --> 00:06:56,957 But just keep doing more of the same stuff. 141 00:06:56,957 --> 00:06:57,287 So 142 00:06:57,347 --> 00:06:57,797 Phil Treagus-Evans: Yeah. 143 00:06:57,857 --> 00:06:58,907 Daniel Rowles: feel that one completely. 144 00:06:59,057 --> 00:07:01,997 Phil Treagus-Evans: certain characters in the world of marketing who 145 00:07:02,687 --> 00:07:04,877 always preaching the post more. 146 00:07:04,877 --> 00:07:07,937 You've gotta be posting more like hustle culture and these sorts of things. 147 00:07:07,937 --> 00:07:10,817 And people feel like they need to be posting every hour if they're 148 00:07:10,817 --> 00:07:11,837 gonna have a chance, you know? 149 00:07:11,837 --> 00:07:11,937 And it's. 150 00:07:12,242 --> 00:07:13,832 It just rubbish. 151 00:07:13,862 --> 00:07:14,972 I just don't think it's true. 152 00:07:15,152 --> 00:07:18,872 We're always big fans of quality over quantity, and if you're 153 00:07:18,872 --> 00:07:23,012 posting just nonsense and for no reason, it doesn't matter how many 154 00:07:23,012 --> 00:07:24,272 times you put it out there, right? 155 00:07:24,277 --> 00:07:25,237 It's still gonna be the same. 156 00:07:25,237 --> 00:07:29,167 So I think it's important to start with strategy and actually have 157 00:07:29,167 --> 00:07:31,837 a reason for like, what are we actually doing here and what are 158 00:07:31,837 --> 00:07:33,607 we trying to provide our audience? 159 00:07:33,847 --> 00:07:35,167 Where's the value for them? 160 00:07:36,007 --> 00:07:37,387 how are we measuring this? 161 00:07:37,657 --> 00:07:40,027 So yeah, that's always something that we come back to. 162 00:07:41,032 --> 00:07:43,492 Daniel Rowles: And just when I was doing some research this interview this, one 163 00:07:43,492 --> 00:07:46,802 of the points you just made there was interesting because there was a stat 164 00:07:46,802 --> 00:07:48,932 from work with the World Advertising Research Council and they were saying 165 00:07:48,932 --> 00:07:52,772 you're now 12 times more likely to engage with a person than you are or the brand. 166 00:07:53,492 --> 00:07:57,662 So that whole piece of actually internal advocacy, our team speaking on our 167 00:07:57,662 --> 00:08:01,712 behalf, our team representing the brands suddenly makes more sense and that. 168 00:08:02,617 --> 00:08:05,947 Of, you know, social media is supposed to be social, not 169 00:08:05,947 --> 00:08:07,117 just the brand broadcasting. 170 00:08:07,157 --> 00:08:09,947 Phil Treagus-Evans: Exactly and this is kind of what, when I say we 171 00:08:09,947 --> 00:08:13,667 are we're almost going back is that think we do need to get back to the 172 00:08:13,667 --> 00:08:15,767 basics of reminding ourselves that. 173 00:08:16,727 --> 00:08:18,827 Business is just a group of people, right? 174 00:08:18,827 --> 00:08:20,567 And customers are another group of people. 175 00:08:20,567 --> 00:08:22,667 So we kind of lost that. 176 00:08:22,667 --> 00:08:27,947 I think things like data and branding and we've kind of lost that mentality. 177 00:08:27,947 --> 00:08:31,807 And we sort of hide behind corporate facades on one side and then 178 00:08:31,807 --> 00:08:35,597 sort of use our customers as data points in a spreadsheet on the ava. 179 00:08:35,597 --> 00:08:38,107 And because of that, we've lost the humanity a little bit. 180 00:08:38,107 --> 00:08:39,532 And when you then. 181 00:08:40,372 --> 00:08:41,452 the humanity back in. 182 00:08:41,452 --> 00:08:44,842 You see the results, you see how people engage with it and react. 183 00:08:45,242 --> 00:08:46,382 And you are spot on. 184 00:08:46,442 --> 00:08:48,032 You only have to look at LinkedIn, right? 185 00:08:48,032 --> 00:08:53,342 So LinkedIn and see what percentage of the posts you're seeing are from people and 186 00:08:53,342 --> 00:08:55,142 what percentage are from company pages. 187 00:08:55,202 --> 00:08:59,162 And it's very clear what the algorithm is wanting us to see. 188 00:08:59,522 --> 00:09:04,412 And it's is people, and it's because people trust people over logos and brands. 189 00:09:05,267 --> 00:09:08,147 Daniel Rowles: I think there's also a natural little kind of just quick segue 190 00:09:08,147 --> 00:09:11,767 with that as well, in that generative engine optimization, suddenly the large 191 00:09:11,767 --> 00:09:13,297 language models looking at content. 192 00:09:13,387 --> 00:09:16,747 Well, one of the things we've immediately seen is actually they don't have 193 00:09:16,747 --> 00:09:17,887 all that data that Google's got. 194 00:09:17,887 --> 00:09:18,712 So what they're looking at is. 195 00:09:19,312 --> 00:09:20,332 What are people saying about you? 196 00:09:20,332 --> 00:09:21,172 How many people are saying it? 197 00:09:21,172 --> 00:09:22,822 Are they saying nice things about you as well? 198 00:09:23,062 --> 00:09:25,582 Well, suddenly this human first marketing approach leans into 199 00:09:25,582 --> 00:09:26,542 that really nicely as well. 200 00:09:26,542 --> 00:09:28,402 'cause you're building that advocacy as well. 201 00:09:28,792 --> 00:09:30,112 So I thought it was quite interesting. 202 00:09:30,727 --> 00:09:30,967 Phil Treagus-Evans: Yeah. 203 00:09:30,967 --> 00:09:31,177 Yeah. 204 00:09:31,177 --> 00:09:35,467 It's, I mean, the word that I just kept coming back to in the book is trust. 205 00:09:36,217 --> 00:09:41,737 think the world around us is becoming more and more artificial, you know, 206 00:09:41,737 --> 00:09:45,817 and based on data, it's, I think the trust element is gonna be more 207 00:09:45,817 --> 00:09:46,742 important than it's ever been. 208 00:09:47,722 --> 00:09:49,282 Daniel Rowles: Do you know, it's interesting, it aligns with the, 209 00:09:49,312 --> 00:09:51,982 we have a professor of ethics at Imperial College, a lovely lady called 210 00:09:51,982 --> 00:09:54,862 Professor Celia Moore, and she has this lovely expression she used when 211 00:09:54,862 --> 00:09:57,502 she does training sessions, which is when everything's AI and deep fake, we 212 00:09:57,502 --> 00:10:01,912 need to lean into our humanity, and I think this leans into this perfectly so 213 00:10:02,142 --> 00:10:05,448 Phil Treagus-Evans: it warms my heart whenever I see anyone saying something 214 00:10:05,448 --> 00:10:07,783 like that, 'cause it's like, yes, that's exactly what we need to be doing. 215 00:10:08,733 --> 00:10:10,923 Daniel Rowles: So, so on that note, how do we, with our audiences, how 216 00:10:10,923 --> 00:10:12,603 do we kind of go beyond demographics? 217 00:10:12,603 --> 00:10:14,643 So if we really wanna understand our audiences a bit more, 218 00:10:14,643 --> 00:10:17,043 go beyond that surface level data, what does that look like? 219 00:10:17,988 --> 00:10:20,988 Phil Treagus-Evans: Yeah, so this is one of the things that I think people 220 00:10:20,988 --> 00:10:24,718 find a little bit controversial that I detest customer avatars whether 221 00:10:24,718 --> 00:10:28,232 that's just because I've had to make hundreds of them over my career I 222 00:10:28,232 --> 00:10:31,082 think, to be honest with you I find them a little bit insulting. 223 00:10:31,082 --> 00:10:34,942 I think when you just focus on demographics, you are lacking any depth. 224 00:10:35,302 --> 00:10:40,212 You know, you tend to do the research in terms of age, location, job title, 225 00:10:40,212 --> 00:10:45,522 maybe, and then you make the assumptions on things like emotions and pain 226 00:10:45,522 --> 00:10:46,932 points and these sorts of things. 227 00:10:47,502 --> 00:10:47,872 And I'm. 228 00:10:48,592 --> 00:10:52,462 Fighting the fight for the, to rethink how we do customer research 229 00:10:52,462 --> 00:10:57,132 and sort of introduced in the book a a new framework for doing it. 230 00:10:57,132 --> 00:11:01,752 And it's something we use at giraffe I've called it the empath framework and. 231 00:11:02,422 --> 00:11:04,912 Each of the letters stands for something because, you know, 232 00:11:04,912 --> 00:11:07,222 if you can turn something into an acronym, why wouldn't you? 233 00:11:08,992 --> 00:11:13,082 and the E is for emotional understanding, and this is about understanding 234 00:11:13,112 --> 00:11:14,432 what your customers are feeling. 235 00:11:14,432 --> 00:11:19,622 And one of the easiest ways and quickest ways to do this is to copy and paste 236 00:11:19,622 --> 00:11:23,582 all of your reviews from every platform into one Word document, and then do 237 00:11:23,582 --> 00:11:25,442 the same for your competitor reviews. 238 00:11:26,222 --> 00:11:26,642 then. 239 00:11:27,377 --> 00:11:30,377 You know, I know I'm the human first guy here, but then put it into chat, 240 00:11:30,377 --> 00:11:33,887 GBT and say, pick out the emotions. 241 00:11:33,887 --> 00:11:39,077 Do some analysis on what emotion emotional words are appearing, how often they're 242 00:11:39,077 --> 00:11:42,067 appearing, and create almost like a word map of what comes up the most. 243 00:11:42,067 --> 00:11:45,397 And this is gonna give you a really quick idea of how your customers are feeling. 244 00:11:46,147 --> 00:11:48,067 The aim is market and trend research. 245 00:11:48,067 --> 00:11:51,067 So what is actually shaping their world at the moment, 246 00:11:51,127 --> 00:11:53,707 culturally, economically, socially. 247 00:11:54,337 --> 00:11:55,987 The P is patterns of behavior. 248 00:11:56,077 --> 00:11:58,087 So how did they actually act? 249 00:11:58,177 --> 00:12:01,777 You know, looking at your website data, for example, or your social media 250 00:12:01,777 --> 00:12:04,207 analytics, are they actually doing? 251 00:12:04,237 --> 00:12:05,227 What are they clicking? 252 00:12:05,227 --> 00:12:06,847 What are they buying, what are they avoiding? 253 00:12:06,847 --> 00:12:07,807 Think about these things. 254 00:12:08,797 --> 00:12:12,127 Then it's audience feedback, and this is a pretty revolutionary idea, 255 00:12:12,127 --> 00:12:16,357 but it's about actually speaking to your customers and and sort of asking 256 00:12:16,357 --> 00:12:18,307 them about what they're feeling. 257 00:12:18,307 --> 00:12:19,447 Why did they choose you? 258 00:12:19,447 --> 00:12:20,317 Why did they not? 259 00:12:20,317 --> 00:12:22,687 Were there any red flags in the sales process? 260 00:12:23,017 --> 00:12:24,427 Who else were they considering? 261 00:12:26,287 --> 00:12:28,567 the final one T is team feedback. 262 00:12:28,567 --> 00:12:32,857 And again, this is, I think, a bit of an oversight that there's no one in 263 00:12:32,857 --> 00:12:36,937 your business really who understands your customers more than salespeople 264 00:12:36,937 --> 00:12:39,787 and customer service people because they're speaking to them all day. 265 00:12:40,477 --> 00:12:45,127 And we often don't really include them in marketing decisions or marketing research. 266 00:12:45,892 --> 00:12:48,362 They're just an absolute wealth of knowledge. 267 00:12:48,462 --> 00:12:49,782 So including that as well. 268 00:12:49,782 --> 00:12:51,942 And then the h is the outcome. 269 00:12:51,942 --> 00:12:54,702 So you combine all of those things and create what I call a human 270 00:12:54,702 --> 00:12:58,722 understanding map, where we're not trying to put people into a neat 271 00:12:58,932 --> 00:13:01,512 box and say, this is this segment. 272 00:13:01,912 --> 00:13:07,762 We're instead understanding our audience as the messy, but 273 00:13:07,762 --> 00:13:09,442 beautiful humans that they are. 274 00:13:10,542 --> 00:13:10,957 Daniel Rowles: I love it. 275 00:13:11,007 --> 00:13:14,337 And you talked about that, the kind of two sides of the human equation. 276 00:13:14,337 --> 00:13:16,137 You've got your customers, but you've got your team as well. 277 00:13:16,137 --> 00:13:20,247 So it brings us nice into that so that team, the culture, the values. 278 00:13:20,297 --> 00:13:22,727 Let's come back to that authenticity word as well. 279 00:13:22,937 --> 00:13:23,357 Phil Treagus-Evans: Sure. 280 00:13:23,867 --> 00:13:26,417 Daniel Rowles: how do the company values and the team dynamics kinda shape that 281 00:13:26,417 --> 00:13:29,207 and how does it shape what your target audience end up seeing and feeling? 282 00:13:29,732 --> 00:13:33,512 Phil Treagus-Evans: Yeah, so when I was writing the book, I started writing 283 00:13:33,512 --> 00:13:37,022 a lot about the techniques that, you know, I would advise people to use, 284 00:13:37,892 --> 00:13:42,002 but I had this nagging voice in the back of my head that a lot of them, 285 00:13:42,242 --> 00:13:43,982 because they're so human focused. 286 00:13:44,612 --> 00:13:47,102 If you don't have good company culture 287 00:13:47,117 --> 00:13:52,397 And values and yeah, like a level of authenticity, some of them won't work. 288 00:13:52,497 --> 00:13:54,567 You know, you take something like employee advocacy. 289 00:13:55,437 --> 00:13:59,277 We were doing a panel not that long ago and talking about the benefits 290 00:13:59,277 --> 00:14:01,257 of employee advocacy and on. 291 00:14:01,257 --> 00:14:06,747 Put the hand up and said, yeah, but how do we control what our employees say and 292 00:14:06,747 --> 00:14:08,247 how do we know they'll say anything good? 293 00:14:08,247 --> 00:14:09,687 They might say negative things. 294 00:14:09,687 --> 00:14:11,082 And thought, ah. 295 00:14:12,312 --> 00:14:13,542 If that's the worry, 296 00:14:14,022 --> 00:14:14,312 Daniel Rowles: Yeah. 297 00:14:14,472 --> 00:14:16,152 Phil Treagus-Evans: you have bigger problems than marketing. 298 00:14:17,292 --> 00:14:20,272 You know, you should be focused on building a brand and a 299 00:14:20,272 --> 00:14:21,772 culture internally where. 300 00:14:22,687 --> 00:14:24,427 People want to post to social media. 301 00:14:24,427 --> 00:14:27,307 They want to talk about their job and the company they work for. 302 00:14:27,307 --> 00:14:30,307 And I think that's the starting point, and it's the foundation 303 00:14:30,307 --> 00:14:31,567 that all of this is built on. 304 00:14:31,987 --> 00:14:36,167 You know, we talk a lot of giraffe about turning great culture into great content. 305 00:14:36,647 --> 00:14:41,057 And a lot of what we do is based on that understanding the culture of our clients, 306 00:14:41,177 --> 00:14:45,267 what makes them unique, what makes them special and building content around that. 307 00:14:45,537 --> 00:14:49,632 So yeah, it was sort of a. It wasn't in the plan. 308 00:14:49,662 --> 00:14:52,542 And then when I was writing the book, I thought, I think I need to touch on 309 00:14:52,992 --> 00:14:58,602 how to develop a better culture and better values in terms of authenticity. 310 00:14:59,412 --> 00:15:02,622 Which yeah, is one of those words that you, if you work in marketing, 311 00:15:02,622 --> 00:15:04,302 you kind of hear it every 30 seconds. 312 00:15:05,622 --> 00:15:09,102 and as a result, I think people have sort of stopped taking it seriously. 313 00:15:09,942 --> 00:15:11,232 But authenticity is everything. 314 00:15:11,232 --> 00:15:14,407 And I really think that during the pandemic especially, we kind of 315 00:15:14,407 --> 00:15:16,907 saw that, we were stuck at home. 316 00:15:17,777 --> 00:15:21,617 were using social media more than ever because everyone was bored 317 00:15:21,617 --> 00:15:22,937 at home scrolling their phones. 318 00:15:23,927 --> 00:15:27,017 But making content was harder than ever because again, we were at home. 319 00:15:27,017 --> 00:15:29,867 We weren't in a studio with lighting and, you know, all of the 320 00:15:29,867 --> 00:15:31,637 equipment we need and other people. 321 00:15:32,267 --> 00:15:34,007 So we were forced as marketers to adapt. 322 00:15:35,087 --> 00:15:39,317 the way we adapted was, let's make slightly lower quality content. 323 00:15:41,252 --> 00:15:44,342 As a result, it felt far more real and authentic. 324 00:15:44,342 --> 00:15:46,802 And it wasn't polished and it wasn't perfect. 325 00:15:47,492 --> 00:15:49,982 And the weirdest thing happened, people loved it. 326 00:15:50,072 --> 00:15:51,782 The engagement levels went up. 327 00:15:52,142 --> 00:15:54,392 And we've seen since the pandemic that people are still 328 00:15:54,392 --> 00:15:56,012 producing this style of content. 329 00:15:56,042 --> 00:15:58,412 You know, it's even called lo-fi content now. 330 00:15:58,412 --> 00:15:59,282 It has its own name. 331 00:16:00,452 --> 00:16:02,942 to me that's authenticity and practice. 332 00:16:03,212 --> 00:16:04,682 Another great example. 333 00:16:05,417 --> 00:16:06,727 Is the book itself. 334 00:16:06,727 --> 00:16:12,037 So, naturally writing a book about human first marketing, I would be the world's 335 00:16:12,037 --> 00:16:16,687 biggest hypocrite if I didn't use Human first marketing to, to promote it, right? 336 00:16:17,047 --> 00:16:20,377 So what I did along the way was just completely share the journey. 337 00:16:20,437 --> 00:16:21,787 It's the first book I've ever written. 338 00:16:22,672 --> 00:16:26,392 I had no idea what I was doing, and I shared the whole thing on LinkedIn. 339 00:16:26,452 --> 00:16:30,652 Just kept updating everyone on how many words I'd written, what I was working on, 340 00:16:30,892 --> 00:16:35,332 what I was struggling with, being sort of quite vulnerable about the process, 341 00:16:35,662 --> 00:16:37,432 asking for help where I needed it. 342 00:16:38,332 --> 00:16:42,562 things like sharing the cover designs to get people to vote on it, 343 00:16:42,577 --> 00:16:42,967 Daniel Rowles: Right. 344 00:16:43,012 --> 00:16:44,992 Phil Treagus-Evans: helping me nail down a title. 345 00:16:46,032 --> 00:16:49,212 What happened was because of the authenticity of me being 346 00:16:49,272 --> 00:16:53,052 completely transparent about this process, people felt like 347 00:16:53,052 --> 00:16:54,612 they were on the journey with me. 348 00:16:55,332 --> 00:16:59,022 by the time the book came out, there was this sort of community of people who 349 00:16:59,022 --> 00:17:03,792 were rallying behind it that personally believe is the reason it became a 350 00:17:03,792 --> 00:17:07,512 bestseller on day one, was that there were so many people who'd followed along. 351 00:17:07,812 --> 00:17:09,402 They felt ownership over it. 352 00:17:09,532 --> 00:17:10,912 They wanted to see it do well. 353 00:17:11,992 --> 00:17:14,302 yeah, to me that's authenticity in, in practice. 354 00:17:15,177 --> 00:17:18,057 Daniel Rowles: I love that because that idea come across, 355 00:17:18,057 --> 00:17:19,437 you know, a thousand true fans. 356 00:17:19,467 --> 00:17:21,567 That idea that if you can have, and I don't think it 357 00:17:21,567 --> 00:17:22,557 needs to be a thousand either. 358 00:17:22,797 --> 00:17:26,337 If you've got a group full of people that really do love your stuff, are 359 00:17:26,337 --> 00:17:29,427 passionate, will share it, and so on, that amplifies everything that 360 00:17:29,427 --> 00:17:31,057 you're doing massively as well. 361 00:17:31,477 --> 00:17:34,987 And I think for this podcast, one of the things that at the beginning, I mean, 362 00:17:34,987 --> 00:17:38,527 we're talking many years ago, like 15 years ago when we started, was that. 363 00:17:39,382 --> 00:17:41,392 It wasn't, how are you gonna make your first million? 364 00:17:41,392 --> 00:17:43,342 It was kind of more, oh, I did that. 365 00:17:43,342 --> 00:17:44,092 That was disaster. 366 00:17:44,092 --> 00:17:44,872 That didn't work. 367 00:17:44,872 --> 00:17:46,102 But that, yeah, that was right. 368 00:17:46,102 --> 00:17:46,552 That did work. 369 00:17:46,552 --> 00:17:47,332 Why did it work? 370 00:17:47,332 --> 00:17:49,942 And it was more those discussions about being, you know, honest 371 00:17:49,942 --> 00:17:51,862 about it that really made it resonate with people though. 372 00:17:51,862 --> 00:17:53,032 It's like, oh, I'm struggling as well. 373 00:17:53,032 --> 00:17:53,182 Right. 374 00:17:53,232 --> 00:17:54,402 I can connect to this. 375 00:17:54,792 --> 00:17:55,982 So I think it's really interesting. 376 00:17:55,982 --> 00:17:59,882 So how do you think, you know, trust is a big theme throughout the book. 377 00:18:00,362 --> 00:18:01,622 How do we earn trust now? 378 00:18:01,722 --> 00:18:03,292 And what's some practical ways that we can do that? 379 00:18:04,177 --> 00:18:08,357 Phil Treagus-Evans: Yeah, I think the first thing is to acknowledge and 380 00:18:08,357 --> 00:18:11,897 accept for, as I mentioned earlier, we are starting from a trust deficit. 381 00:18:11,957 --> 00:18:16,817 The trust in organizations, trust in executives, media, government 382 00:18:16,862 --> 00:18:17,782 Is at a low. 383 00:18:17,902 --> 00:18:18,982 As a result of that. 384 00:18:19,432 --> 00:18:21,292 It isn't enough to just show up. 385 00:18:21,292 --> 00:18:25,762 We need to be thinking more about proactively building trust one of the 386 00:18:25,762 --> 00:18:28,642 best ways to do that is to be visible. 387 00:18:28,852 --> 00:18:33,282 And I think that executive teams in brands, I think it's getting 388 00:18:33,282 --> 00:18:37,602 better I know it's getting better from the fact that we get asked more 389 00:18:37,602 --> 00:18:40,927 and more about it, a giraffe that people are wanting to do this, but. 390 00:18:41,682 --> 00:18:44,112 The leadership teams of businesses should be visible. 391 00:18:44,352 --> 00:18:46,392 People should be able to see what they're up to, what they're 392 00:18:46,392 --> 00:18:50,232 working on, there needs to be a level of transparency as well. 393 00:18:50,412 --> 00:18:52,692 So for me, when it comes to building trust. 394 00:18:53,412 --> 00:18:55,092 first thing I think of is visibility. 395 00:18:55,272 --> 00:18:55,482 Be 396 00:18:55,732 --> 00:18:55,962 Daniel Rowles: Right. 397 00:18:56,382 --> 00:18:57,072 Phil Treagus-Evans: be open. 398 00:18:57,132 --> 00:18:59,892 Talk about what you're working on, what's not working. 399 00:19:00,012 --> 00:19:05,022 If mistakes are made, own them and actually be really transparent about, 400 00:19:05,112 --> 00:19:06,642 Hey look, we're trying to do this. 401 00:19:06,702 --> 00:19:07,482 And it hasn't worked. 402 00:19:07,752 --> 00:19:12,222 One of the examples I always think of is, and it's one of my favorite brands of all 403 00:19:12,222 --> 00:19:17,592 time, Lego you know, they are working very hard to try and become more sustainable. 404 00:19:17,592 --> 00:19:18,702 And when you boil it down. 405 00:19:19,197 --> 00:19:21,087 They're a company that sells plastic bricks. 406 00:19:21,087 --> 00:19:22,357 Like not ideal, right? 407 00:19:22,357 --> 00:19:26,537 I mean, you know, plastics were told repeatedly are bad they tried something 408 00:19:26,717 --> 00:19:30,587 a few years back where they were going to start making their bricks from a 409 00:19:30,587 --> 00:19:32,647 recycled, I think it was like bottles. 410 00:19:33,302 --> 00:19:35,252 And essentially it just didn't work. 411 00:19:35,312 --> 00:19:39,542 It, they the durability of it just didn't work, but because they were completely 412 00:19:39,542 --> 00:19:42,362 transparent the whole way through, and so, look, we're trialing this. 413 00:19:42,482 --> 00:19:45,812 And then they were just as transparent to say it didn't work. 414 00:19:45,862 --> 00:19:47,362 But we're gonna have to go back to the drawing board. 415 00:19:47,932 --> 00:19:51,442 People respected it because, you know, you're not just publishing the wins. 416 00:19:51,472 --> 00:19:53,842 You're actually saying, look, this is the journey we're on. 417 00:19:53,902 --> 00:19:55,372 It's not gonna be all ups. 418 00:19:55,372 --> 00:19:56,512 There's gonna be some downs. 419 00:19:56,962 --> 00:19:58,672 And because they had a track record of. 420 00:20:00,087 --> 00:20:02,187 trying to be more sustainable. 421 00:20:02,547 --> 00:20:05,517 There was a story there that people could buy into and believe. 422 00:20:05,567 --> 00:20:08,892 I think as a result of that, you do see more trust in the brand and 423 00:20:08,892 --> 00:20:13,062 when you have more trust, you have more license to make mistakes. 424 00:20:13,062 --> 00:20:15,762 And you know, when there's a crisis, people are more forgiving and sort of 425 00:20:15,957 --> 00:20:16,407 Daniel Rowles: Yeah. 426 00:20:16,542 --> 00:20:16,632 Phil Treagus-Evans: it. 427 00:20:16,632 --> 00:20:17,952 So, yeah. 428 00:20:18,717 --> 00:20:20,937 Daniel Rowles: You mentioned it earlier on, and just to jump off 429 00:20:20,937 --> 00:20:22,467 again a tangent slightly for a second. 430 00:20:22,467 --> 00:20:24,147 You mentioned hustle culture earlier on. 431 00:20:24,657 --> 00:20:29,277 Do you think there is a, we've developed this thing in digital marketing startups 432 00:20:29,327 --> 00:20:33,497 in tech world about, you know, the hustle culture post every 20 seconds, 433 00:20:33,497 --> 00:20:36,797 sleep, you know, one hour a day, all this kind of, you know, stuff and everyone. 434 00:20:37,337 --> 00:20:40,397 Portrays it, but everyone is, maybe it's not realistic. 435 00:20:40,397 --> 00:20:42,647 It's not really, you know, it's not possible for most people. 436 00:20:43,067 --> 00:20:45,497 Is that a complete counter to human first marketing, or do you 437 00:20:45,552 --> 00:20:46,712 think the two things can coexist? 438 00:20:47,987 --> 00:20:50,927 Phil Treagus-Evans: I dunno if it's a complete counter, but it's, I think 439 00:20:50,927 --> 00:20:56,597 it's dangerous and I'm saying that from someone who was susceptible to 440 00:20:56,812 --> 00:21:01,672 In, in my sort of early days as an entrepreneur, working ridiculous hours 441 00:21:02,482 --> 00:21:04,642 it felt like that was the only way. 442 00:21:04,997 --> 00:21:07,547 To be successful, to be deemed a success. 443 00:21:07,647 --> 00:21:10,622 To be completely frank, Daniel it drove me to anxiety. 444 00:21:10,622 --> 00:21:11,042 I, 445 00:21:11,052 --> 00:21:11,342 Daniel Rowles: Yeah. 446 00:21:11,342 --> 00:21:13,892 Phil Treagus-Evans: struggled with my mental health and I think a lot of that 447 00:21:13,892 --> 00:21:19,452 was this external pressure of people were, and they still are in some corners 448 00:21:19,452 --> 00:21:22,392 of the internet, just posting success. 449 00:21:22,662 --> 00:21:23,592 This has happened. 450 00:21:23,622 --> 00:21:25,332 Oh, we've signed 10 clients this week. 451 00:21:25,332 --> 00:21:25,962 We've done that. 452 00:21:27,717 --> 00:21:31,017 I think the reality as you get older is you realize that no one 453 00:21:31,017 --> 00:21:32,277 really knows what they're doing. 454 00:21:33,567 --> 00:21:36,237 It is just really pretending how well you are doing. 455 00:21:36,277 --> 00:21:40,927 Everyone's still figuring it out, and I think that's why being a little bit 456 00:21:40,927 --> 00:21:45,247 more vulnerable and honest drives up the engagement because people are just 457 00:21:45,247 --> 00:21:49,087 craving something real that doesn't make them feel bad about themselves. 458 00:21:49,687 --> 00:21:51,157 Daniel Rowles: Yeah, there's a couple of nice examples 459 00:21:51,157 --> 00:21:52,087 we'll put into the show notes. 460 00:21:52,087 --> 00:21:53,887 So target internet.com/podcast. 461 00:21:53,887 --> 00:21:56,617 But from, if you look at the stuff that Rand Fishkins done where he 462 00:21:56,617 --> 00:22:00,577 tried to kind of oppose that culture and say, actually we can work hard, 463 00:22:00,577 --> 00:22:03,037 but we can work effectively and we don't need two ridiculous hours. 464 00:22:03,457 --> 00:22:06,607 Then if you look at stuff that Jay Sch Delson does on the do this, not that 465 00:22:06,607 --> 00:22:09,907 podcast where he is just completely authentic and just talks about, and 466 00:22:09,907 --> 00:22:12,127 he's just written a book, which is actually on a similar kind of topic. 467 00:22:12,437 --> 00:22:13,817 And I've seen him speak so many times. 468 00:22:13,817 --> 00:22:17,417 I just think the human aspect of that is what you, connects you to him completely. 469 00:22:17,417 --> 00:22:21,017 So, I think it's lovely kind of segue into some of those people as well, so. 470 00:22:21,457 --> 00:22:23,047 The whole piece about leadership then. 471 00:22:23,167 --> 00:22:27,697 So if you want to make a strong case for leaders being visible 472 00:22:27,697 --> 00:22:30,577 online, why is it so important and how does that strengthen the brand? 473 00:22:30,577 --> 00:22:31,897 How does that strengthen the culture? 474 00:22:32,497 --> 00:22:36,092 Phil Treagus-Evans: I think leadership has an opportunity because. 475 00:22:36,322 --> 00:22:36,442 Daniel Rowles: I. 476 00:22:36,512 --> 00:22:38,042 Phil Treagus-Evans: Their voices are listened to. 477 00:22:38,042 --> 00:22:38,372 Right. 478 00:22:38,372 --> 00:22:43,702 So it's, an opportunity and I think social media is the ultimate platform 479 00:22:43,702 --> 00:22:49,162 for especially a platform like LinkedIn for the leaders of a company to be 480 00:22:49,162 --> 00:22:54,682 open about what they're working on and what's been going well internally. 481 00:22:55,132 --> 00:22:58,852 That, and I don't have the stats to hand, but that there's research done into. 482 00:22:59,767 --> 00:23:02,527 People wanting to work for companies where the leadership 483 00:23:02,527 --> 00:23:04,867 are visible, trusting the brand, 484 00:23:05,272 --> 00:23:05,692 Daniel Rowles: Yeah. 485 00:23:05,857 --> 00:23:08,257 Phil Treagus-Evans: employee advocacy, if they can see that the leadership 486 00:23:08,257 --> 00:23:12,492 team are being really active on social media and celebrating the culture 487 00:23:12,492 --> 00:23:13,752 and the work that they're doing. 488 00:23:14,112 --> 00:23:18,342 And even things like shouting out team members and saying, I just wanna draw 489 00:23:18,377 --> 00:23:20,322 attention to this person on our team. 490 00:23:20,322 --> 00:23:21,702 We did something amazing this week. 491 00:23:22,287 --> 00:23:24,877 These things are they build trust, but they also build 492 00:23:24,967 --> 00:23:26,747 culture in the company itself. 493 00:23:26,747 --> 00:23:30,737 And almost like social proof at scale because. 494 00:23:31,727 --> 00:23:36,137 A leadership's voice can attract talent, it can open doors, it 495 00:23:36,137 --> 00:23:38,177 can elevate brand perception. 496 00:23:38,537 --> 00:23:43,497 And I think too many executives hide behind not doing things on 497 00:23:43,497 --> 00:23:46,407 social media, and missing a trick. 498 00:23:46,527 --> 00:23:48,987 They're really missing a trick, and it's something that we are always 499 00:23:48,987 --> 00:23:51,197 encouraging our clients to to do more of. 500 00:23:52,247 --> 00:23:54,287 Daniel Rowles: I think from that, particularly from that talent 501 00:23:54,287 --> 00:23:55,757 acquisition point of view as well. 502 00:23:55,757 --> 00:24:00,047 If you look at, you know, if we're competing for talent and those people 503 00:24:00,047 --> 00:24:02,477 wanna see what the brand stands for and really does it stand for anything? 504 00:24:02,477 --> 00:24:02,627 Yeah. 505 00:24:02,627 --> 00:24:03,797 What is the value of the brand? 506 00:24:04,157 --> 00:24:06,167 I think it's a huge opportunity for kind of doing that. 507 00:24:06,167 --> 00:24:06,617 So. 508 00:24:06,812 --> 00:24:10,312 Phil Treagus-Evans: it's something that we looked at giraffe because I'm naturally 509 00:24:10,312 --> 00:24:14,812 quite introverted, and it was only about four or five years ago that we thought 510 00:24:15,442 --> 00:24:16,967 we, we really need to be more visible. 511 00:24:17,692 --> 00:24:22,522 And so I spent a lot more time on my own LinkedIn presence and being on podcasts 512 00:24:22,522 --> 00:24:24,352 and obviously eventually writing the book. 513 00:24:24,832 --> 00:24:27,292 Because yeah, it's, and we've seen the results. 514 00:24:27,292 --> 00:24:30,582 We've seen people who want to work for giraffe because they're aware of this 515 00:24:30,582 --> 00:24:33,852 human first marketing movement that we're trying to sort of initiate and 516 00:24:34,512 --> 00:24:37,752 believe in it and they know what we're about and they want to be involved. 517 00:24:37,802 --> 00:24:39,482 It's been really exciting actually to see that. 518 00:24:40,487 --> 00:24:42,707 Daniel Rowles: So I think you've written the book a very interesting time because 519 00:24:42,767 --> 00:24:46,067 obviously AI was well underway, kind of the, or the generative AI was well 520 00:24:46,067 --> 00:24:48,917 underway, but it's obviously just ramped up even since you published as well. 521 00:24:49,307 --> 00:24:54,017 So with AI playing that bigger role, how do we make sure the human isn't lost 522 00:24:54,017 --> 00:24:56,032 and what opport opportunities open up? 523 00:24:56,032 --> 00:24:58,252 And I've seen from your stuff already, it's not that we're saying AI is bad, 524 00:24:58,252 --> 00:24:59,752 it's just that we need to be careful. 525 00:25:00,712 --> 00:25:04,192 Phil Treagus-Evans: Yeah, I always say that I'm not anti ai, I'm anti lazy ai. 526 00:25:04,402 --> 00:25:07,732 And I think, I mean, everyone's using it, right? 527 00:25:07,732 --> 00:25:10,798 I think even people who are pretending that they don't are and I think the 528 00:25:10,798 --> 00:25:13,993 reason people are pretending is because there's no nuance in AI anymore. 529 00:25:14,298 --> 00:25:17,448 I think it's, people seem to even think it's the best thing ever, 530 00:25:17,448 --> 00:25:20,338 and you should be embracing it or it's evil and if you use it. 531 00:25:21,318 --> 00:25:22,458 You're not doing it properly. 532 00:25:24,078 --> 00:25:27,198 I personally think we need more nuance, and I think that comes with 533 00:25:27,318 --> 00:25:31,818 having discussions and having in place 534 00:25:31,898 --> 00:25:32,248 Daniel Rowles: Right. 535 00:25:32,298 --> 00:25:34,278 Phil Treagus-Evans: Hey, like this is where we're gonna draw the line. 536 00:25:34,328 --> 00:25:37,598 This is everything, this side we are happy to use AI for and everything. 537 00:25:37,598 --> 00:25:42,398 This side we don't want to at this point, just keen for AI not to replace humanity. 538 00:25:42,488 --> 00:25:47,528 If you want AI to analyze data or, you know, organize things 539 00:25:47,528 --> 00:25:50,378 or summarize articles or these sorts of things, amazing. 540 00:25:50,408 --> 00:25:54,738 I think it's brilliant for that and then actually, one of the most interesting 541 00:25:54,738 --> 00:25:56,718 and effective ways I've used it is. 542 00:25:57,678 --> 00:25:58,908 as a sparring partner. 543 00:25:59,718 --> 00:26:00,108 Daniel Rowles: Right. 544 00:26:00,138 --> 00:26:02,928 Phil Treagus-Evans: when I was writing the book to say, like, I'd upload a 545 00:26:02,928 --> 00:26:04,758 chapter and be like, why am I wrong? 546 00:26:04,968 --> 00:26:05,898 Like, tell me why I'm 547 00:26:06,178 --> 00:26:09,688 To make it challenge me and sort of give me a contradictory 548 00:26:10,108 --> 00:26:11,818 opinion to what I was thinking. 549 00:26:12,298 --> 00:26:14,848 And to me is like, that's amazing. 550 00:26:14,848 --> 00:26:17,278 I mean, that's the most valuable way I've used it so far. 551 00:26:17,758 --> 00:26:18,238 But. 552 00:26:19,483 --> 00:26:21,393 In terms of what we're seeing with marketing. 553 00:26:21,393 --> 00:26:24,603 As I mentioned earlier, everything is starting to look and sound the same. 554 00:26:25,353 --> 00:26:29,703 when that is the case, believe that the competitive edge now 555 00:26:29,703 --> 00:26:29,993 Daniel Rowles: Yeah. 556 00:26:30,063 --> 00:26:30,723 Phil Treagus-Evans: humanity. 557 00:26:31,343 --> 00:26:35,973 No one can replicate the people in your team, your experiences. 558 00:26:37,023 --> 00:26:40,173 Rick Rubin, who's an absolute hero of mine, like one of the 559 00:26:40,173 --> 00:26:41,343 best music producers of all 560 00:26:41,478 --> 00:26:42,708 Daniel Rowles: I saw the quote in chapter one. 561 00:26:42,708 --> 00:26:42,948 Yeah. 562 00:26:43,528 --> 00:26:44,548 Phil Treagus-Evans: I just love Rick Ruben. 563 00:26:44,638 --> 00:26:45,688 I wish he was my friend. 564 00:26:46,008 --> 00:26:46,998 Daniel Rowles: Maybe we'll be after this. 565 00:26:47,238 --> 00:26:47,478 Phil Treagus-Evans: Yeah. 566 00:26:47,478 --> 00:26:48,378 Maybe that's my goal. 567 00:26:48,378 --> 00:26:48,558 Yeah. 568 00:26:48,558 --> 00:26:49,218 Is eventually. 569 00:26:49,698 --> 00:26:54,638 But he talked about this idea that if you had a really good movie script 570 00:26:54,698 --> 00:27:00,068 and you gave it to five different AI tools and asked it to produce 571 00:27:00,073 --> 00:27:03,758 a film, would end up with five films that are relatively similar. 572 00:27:04,778 --> 00:27:07,238 whereas if you gave the same script to five humans. 573 00:27:08,138 --> 00:27:11,618 are gonna get radically different films because all of those people 574 00:27:11,618 --> 00:27:14,618 have seen different movies, they've had different experiences, they 575 00:27:14,618 --> 00:27:15,878 interpret things differently. 576 00:27:16,178 --> 00:27:18,428 And it comes back to sort of point of view, right? 577 00:27:18,428 --> 00:27:24,728 We all have a different point of view if we just outsource all of our marketing 578 00:27:24,728 --> 00:27:27,368 and ideas to ai, we're gonna lose that. 579 00:27:27,368 --> 00:27:32,228 So for me, it's, as I say, it's the competitive edge now is being more human, 580 00:27:32,773 --> 00:27:34,573 Daniel Rowles: Well, I'm fascinated. 581 00:27:34,573 --> 00:27:37,723 'cause if you look at Google's path of this right, for content, so they 582 00:27:37,723 --> 00:27:38,738 come out four years ago and go. 583 00:27:39,383 --> 00:27:41,063 AI content, no, you must not have it. 584 00:27:41,153 --> 00:27:43,943 Then they come out and say, good content's, good content, 585 00:27:43,943 --> 00:27:45,113 don't care how you create it. 586 00:27:45,413 --> 00:27:47,753 And then they come out, well, oh, it's complex. 587 00:27:47,993 --> 00:27:49,943 And then E comes along and it's like experience, 588 00:27:49,943 --> 00:27:51,593 expertise, authorit, and trust. 589 00:27:51,593 --> 00:27:54,623 It's saying you have to put the human element in because if you don't, 590 00:27:54,983 --> 00:27:58,173 then it's just AI slop and it's just gonna, so I think it's interesting. 591 00:27:58,173 --> 00:28:00,753 Even the algorithms are trying to reward actually the human element 592 00:28:00,753 --> 00:28:01,653 in this is what's important. 593 00:28:01,653 --> 00:28:03,123 It's your experience, it's your expertise. 594 00:28:03,123 --> 00:28:05,133 It's what unique you bring to the table as well. 595 00:28:05,913 --> 00:28:06,213 So. 596 00:28:06,288 --> 00:28:08,418 Phil Treagus-Evans: Google is thrashing around at the moment. 597 00:28:08,418 --> 00:28:08,568 Like 598 00:28:08,618 --> 00:28:12,158 That had, I'm all trying to figure out how it's gonna coexist. 599 00:28:12,158 --> 00:28:12,938 All of this stuff. 600 00:28:13,538 --> 00:28:17,978 Daniel Rowles: Yeah it's very interesting and I think actually as we are in this 601 00:28:17,978 --> 00:28:20,798 increasing kind of no click environment, people aren't clicking in search, 602 00:28:20,798 --> 00:28:21,968 they're not clicking in social media. 603 00:28:22,388 --> 00:28:25,478 That differentiation is really what's gonna make brands kind of stand out. 604 00:28:25,478 --> 00:28:26,708 So I think it's very interesting timing. 605 00:28:26,708 --> 00:28:29,318 So Phil, how can people get in contact? 606 00:28:29,318 --> 00:28:31,428 Tell us a little bit about the agency if people wanna reach out 607 00:28:31,428 --> 00:28:32,203 and kind of see what you do as well. 608 00:28:32,913 --> 00:28:33,423 Phil Treagus-Evans: Yeah, sure. 609 00:28:33,423 --> 00:28:37,303 So, the agency I run called Giraffe Social, we are a social media 610 00:28:37,303 --> 00:28:39,223 specialist agency that focuses on. 611 00:28:40,303 --> 00:28:44,153 Perhaps in what we preach and using Human First Marketing with all of our clients. 612 00:28:44,633 --> 00:28:47,983 The book is on Amazon and various other places, but Amazon's probably 613 00:28:47,983 --> 00:28:49,363 the easiest place to source it. 614 00:28:49,613 --> 00:28:52,253 And I'm probably the best way for me is LinkedIn. 615 00:28:52,253 --> 00:28:55,823 So if you want to connect or ask me anything, is kind of where I'm 616 00:28:56,903 --> 00:28:58,323 probably too much time these days. 617 00:28:58,788 --> 00:29:00,198 Daniel Rowles: We'll put all those links into show notes, 618 00:29:00,198 --> 00:29:02,118 so target internet.com/podcast. 619 00:29:02,178 --> 00:29:04,768 We'll link through to the book, through to the agency and through 620 00:29:04,768 --> 00:29:06,298 to Phil's profile on LinkedIn. 621 00:29:06,298 --> 00:29:08,578 So Phil, thank you so much for joining us. 622 00:29:08,578 --> 00:29:10,868 Lots to think about and hopefully we'll see you again on the 623 00:29:10,868 --> 00:29:11,888 Digital Marketing podcast. 624 00:29:12,308 --> 00:29:12,822 Phil Treagus-Evans: Thanks Daniel. 625 00:29:14,712 --> 00:29:18,312 For more episodes, resources to leave a review or to get in contact, 626 00:29:18,312 --> 00:29:20,862 go to target internet.com/podcast.