1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,400 if you do that in a pine stand this fall 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,600 and then follow it up with a prescribed burn, 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,560 you're gonna love what you see come springtime 4 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,040 and it's gonna be a whole lot better going forward. 5 00:00:12,040 --> 00:00:14,600 I think just having a forester looking out 6 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:16,760 for your property on your behalf 7 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:19,920 because financially it can have a big impact 8 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:21,320 on the decisions you make. 9 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,040 And so you're planting and managing timber now 10 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:26,160 for the next 25 plus years. 11 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:27,840 So I think it's important to have somebody 12 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:29,120 that's kind of looking out for you 13 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:30,880 and helping you make those decisions 14 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,080 and understanding those prescriptions 15 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:34,840 and understanding what the prices are 16 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,120 and the different application methods and everything. 17 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:38,680 It's just good to have somebody 18 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:40,640 that's kind of on your side, 19 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:42,920 helping you walk through all that. 20 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:53,760 Welcome to Wild Turkey Science, 21 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,160 a podcast made possible by Turkeys for Tomorrow. 22 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:58,880 I'm Dr. Marcus Lashley, 23 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,360 Professor of Wildlife Ecology at the University of Florida. 24 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,240 And I'm Dr. Will Goolsby, 25 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:07,360 Professor of Wildlife Ecology and Management 26 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:08,880 at Auburn University. 27 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,800 We're both lifelong hunters and devoted scientists 28 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:13,440 who are passionate about hunting, 29 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,240 managing and researching wild turkeys. 30 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,040 In this podcast, we'll explore turkey research, 31 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,320 speak to the experts in the field 32 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:23,200 and address the difficult questions 33 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,440 related to wild turkey ecology and management. 34 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,040 Our goal is to serve as your connection 35 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:30,720 to wild turkey science. 36 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:40,160 This is gonna be a really good one today though, y'all. 37 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:41,600 I think, I mean, you know, 38 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,040 we've been talking a lot about forest management lately, 39 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,120 this relative, relevant to the landowner. 40 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,760 And we're gonna continue with that theme today 41 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:52,760 with Michael Heatherly, 42 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,000 an awesome, fantastic guest that we have here. 43 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,200 He's a forester with Sizemore and Sizemore, 44 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,280 almost said what you asked me not to. 45 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,280 But Michael, tell us a little bit about 46 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:05,720 what you do in that role and we'll get into it. 47 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:06,560 Yeah, first off, 48 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,640 I appreciate having the opportunity to come on here. 49 00:02:08,640 --> 00:02:12,000 I'm an avid listener of the show 50 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,120 and I think I'm up to speed on every episode of the podcast. 51 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,600 So it's an honor to be here. 52 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:18,680 Thank you for that. 53 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:23,680 Yeah, so I graduated in 2008 in forestry from Auburn. 54 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,480 And started out as just a field technician 55 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,360 with Sizemore and Sizemore, 56 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,080 doing forestry consultant work 57 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,240 and have slowly grown into the role 58 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:36,640 of being more of a forest manager. 59 00:02:36,640 --> 00:02:38,200 And in the past five years, 60 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:39,800 we started doing more land sales. 61 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:43,160 So I currently hold our broker's license 62 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:44,960 with our timber land sales as well. 63 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:45,920 But day to day, 64 00:02:45,920 --> 00:02:49,960 I'm working with mostly private land owners. 65 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,520 And we also have some clients that are, 66 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,080 you know, investment timber companies. 67 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,400 So that's kind of my day-to-day role 68 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,960 is forest management with private land owners. 69 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,120 And so- 70 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,680 Yeah, and I think one of the things 71 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:08,360 that connected you and I to begin with 72 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:12,760 is that as opposed to some foresters, 73 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,960 you do a lot of habitat focused work. 74 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,840 I would say much more than the average forester does. 75 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:20,680 We really do. 76 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,360 And we've kind of gotten into the past, 77 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,560 probably eight or 10 years, even, 78 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,600 to where I would say the majority 79 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:34,600 of our land owner clients now have wildlife management 80 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:36,880 as at least a secondary, you know, 81 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:38,160 objective for the property. 82 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:40,520 You know, we used to be more focused on, 83 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:41,600 most of our land owners 84 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,240 were about maximizing timber income. 85 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,320 And it seems in the past 10 years 86 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,640 has really transitioned to where 87 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:52,120 that wildlife management is either the top, 88 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,600 you know, goal, or it's the second, 89 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,160 you know, secondary objective on the property. 90 00:03:58,160 --> 00:03:59,000 Yeah. 91 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,880 And so we've really focused a lot on that 92 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:03,120 the past few years. 93 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,680 Well, as a wildlife biologist, that excites me. 94 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:07,520 Yeah. 95 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:09,160 The shifting objectives. 96 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:10,480 I agree. 97 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,400 I also kind of feel like I've observed 98 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,680 a very similar trend. 99 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:19,440 And, you know, it's just been interesting 100 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:20,440 watching that play out. 101 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:22,320 I mean, everybody that comes to me, 102 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,800 or I'm assuming Will, has wildlife number one, 103 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,960 but it does seem like a broader trend in general 104 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:33,960 that, you know, that land management objectives 105 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,920 are shifting and wildlife is often, 106 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,000 it's always been, I guess, in the top three 107 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,840 in terms of like serving landowners in the South, at least. 108 00:04:42,840 --> 00:04:47,000 But now it seems to commonly rank one. 109 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:47,840 Yeah. 110 00:04:47,840 --> 00:04:49,880 I used to get nervous when I'd recommend to a landowner 111 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,680 that they thin below, you know, optimal stocking 112 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,280 or a traditional fifth row or whatever. 113 00:04:55,280 --> 00:04:58,000 But now it's like, you know, 114 00:04:58,000 --> 00:04:59,680 you used to have to almost brace yourself 115 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:01,520 for the conversation or the debate 116 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:02,640 that was coming after that. 117 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:06,000 But now it's just like, okay, tell me where to sign. 118 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,960 And that's where we want to go today. 119 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:10,400 And Michael, where I thought we could 120 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,440 probably start out with is let's just pretend that, 121 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:15,120 you know, we're landowners. 122 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,480 We just bought our first piece of property. 123 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,320 We want to manage it for turkeys and, you know, 124 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,520 maybe deer and other wildlife. 125 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:23,360 What do we do? 126 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:24,400 How does this process start? 127 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,640 Like once we reach out to you and kind of 128 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:28,920 what are the nuts and bolts of that? 129 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:29,760 Yeah. 130 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:31,920 So, you know, the first thing that I always want to know 131 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,920 when somebody reaches out to us 132 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,520 is what their objectives are on the property. 133 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,400 That's kind of the number one question 134 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,560 and kind of the starting place is what do you want to do? 135 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,200 You know, do you want to maximize timber, 136 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,680 have wildlife as kind of secondary objective, 137 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,160 or do you not care anything about timber production 138 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:52,640 and focus on wildlife? 139 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:54,920 So that kind of puts us on track of where, 140 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,680 what kind of recommendations that we make to a landowner. 141 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,000 From there, you know, we do a site visit 142 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:01,800 or we look at aerial photographs 143 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,920 and kind of see what maybe some options are. 144 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:06,640 You know, I'm not a biologist, 145 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,360 but I've spent a lot of time in the woods 146 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:11,200 with biologists on properties. 147 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:12,960 You know, where we've met with landowners 148 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,080 and a biologist on site, 149 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:16,920 and I've seen a lot of the recommendations 150 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:18,920 and the practices that have been put in place. 151 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,840 So there's some things that are kind of straightforward 152 00:06:22,840 --> 00:06:24,680 and simple as far as if you have an unthinned 153 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,560 pine plantation, we got to get some sunlight to the ground. 154 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,520 You know, I think everybody can agree on that. 155 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:33,200 And then after that, depending on what comes up, 156 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,400 you know, if there needs to be a herbicide application 157 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:40,040 or, you know, a fire, you know, rotation put into place. 158 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,040 So we usually just start out with objectives 159 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,720 and trying to figure out what people are interested in. 160 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,320 And then based on what they have on their property, 161 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:49,960 what kind of timber stands they have, 162 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:52,640 then we make recommendations based on that 163 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:54,160 to meet their objectives. 164 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,000 And, you know, we are foresters primarily, 165 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,560 but I want to do whatever the landowner wants. 166 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,880 You know, if their objective is wildlife, 167 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:04,000 I have a lot of people that say, 168 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,520 I'm not interested in any clear cutting. 169 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:07,760 And we're fine with that. 170 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,080 You know, we're perfectly fine with, you know, 171 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:11,440 if the timber needs to be thinned 172 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:13,920 or we need to get some sunlight in there, we can do that. 173 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,600 And, you know, we do what the landowner wants to do 174 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:18,360 to achieve their objectives. 175 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:19,360 Yeah. 176 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,600 Marcus and I were just having a conversation about that 177 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,480 on a recent episode where we sometimes feel like 178 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,200 if a landowner has us out, they feel apologetic 179 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,880 if they have objectives other than turkeys, 180 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:31,080 like whether that be deer, 181 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,200 whether that be timber, cows, or something else. 182 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:36,520 And it's like, you never have to apologize 183 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:37,360 for what you want. 184 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:38,200 It's your land. 185 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:40,400 And my job is to just help you make it 186 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:41,680 what you want it to be. 187 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:42,520 Yeah. 188 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,840 And also, you know, when we were having that discussion, 189 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:47,280 we made, this may have come up, 190 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,000 but you don't have to use all of your property 191 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,240 to maximize one objective. 192 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,480 You know, in that case, it may be turkeys, 193 00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:59,920 but, you know, you may have some stands 194 00:07:59,920 --> 00:08:02,120 that are really productive timber 195 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:03,960 and you want to maximize timber there. 196 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,200 That doesn't mean you have to do that everywhere. 197 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,560 It also doesn't mean that you have to, 198 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:10,800 you know, I hesitate to say this, 199 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:12,920 but you don't have to maximize turkeys everywhere. 200 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,440 That's not your only objective. 201 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:19,880 So, yeah, I have found it interesting. 202 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:21,640 Michael, one of the things that you, 203 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:23,120 when you were just talking then 204 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,120 that kind of resonated with me, I guess before, 205 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,120 you know, we really wanted to get into the nuts 206 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,400 and bolts of, as a landowner, 207 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:33,360 what are the steps they'd need to take, you know, 208 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,640 and even like, how do they get the timber sold 209 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,800 and get people on the property and all that stuff. 210 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,280 But one of the things that you just said 211 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:45,320 was a lot of landowners aren't, 212 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,520 or I guess if they have a wildlife objective, 213 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:51,800 they may never see clear-cutting as an endpoint of a stand. 214 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,120 So I'm just curious, I'd like to hear you talk about that 215 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,920 because I talk to landowners about this regularly, 216 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:02,000 that particularly that have like a lot of wally pine 217 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,200 on, you know, stands on their property, 218 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:06,960 and I have talked to them about clear-cutting 219 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,160 doesn't necessarily have to be the endpoint 220 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:10,640 if they have a wildlife objective. 221 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,360 So would you mind sharing, you know, 222 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:15,560 your perspective on that? 223 00:09:15,560 --> 00:09:17,960 Sure. I think one thing that's important too, 224 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,840 and something that is good from a timber standpoint 225 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,280 is that if you do cut timber, 226 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,240 whether it be thinning or clear-cut, 227 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,120 that usually generates some income 228 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,560 that you can turn around and put back into the property. 229 00:09:31,560 --> 00:09:34,080 So that's really important, you know, to be able to, 230 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,480 if you wanna get your property in really good shape, 231 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,560 you're probably gonna need to spend some money 232 00:09:39,560 --> 00:09:41,240 on herbicide and fire lanes, 233 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,040 and there's gonna be some input there on cost, 234 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,600 and so having some timber harvest planned 235 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:48,960 is usually a really good thing. 236 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:53,960 So when we look at older stands of loblolly pine, 237 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:57,320 the couple of things that concern me a little bit 238 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:01,760 is timber outgrowing the markets. 239 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,760 You know, it seems there's been a really big shift 240 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,800 from people, the mills wanting you 241 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:10,760 to grow big, large saw timber now 242 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,400 to where chip and saw size trees, 243 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:18,400 like a 12 to 14-inch tree is kind of the optimum size tree 244 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:22,640 as far as that's typically gonna be your highest value 245 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:24,280 other than a pole. 246 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,160 That's typically gonna be your highest value. 247 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:31,400 When timber gets to be in that 12 to 15-inch size 248 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:35,160 at breast height, that's kind of gonna be 249 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,600 your economic maturity of that stand. 250 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,240 So you kind of have to make a decision of, you know, 251 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,360 knowing if you thin that and don't clear-cut that now, 252 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,520 then it's not being as productive as it could be. 253 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:48,240 Am I gonna outgrow the markets 254 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:49,960 if I continue to grow this stand 255 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,280 and it gets to be 16, 18 inches at DBH? 256 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,400 Is it gonna outgrow my local market? 257 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:57,320 So there's, depending on what area you're in, 258 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,200 that's something to consider. 259 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,000 And then like you mentioned, Marcus, 260 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:06,440 the clear-cutting is not the kind of the end game. 261 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,840 Are we clear-cut this and all of our habitat's gone? 262 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,760 Because what we've seen is if you have a stand 263 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:13,880 that's been thin and well-managed, 264 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:17,920 say you've done some herbicide applications 265 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:19,760 throughout the rotation, you've done burning, 266 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:21,440 you have that understory in good shape. 267 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,520 When you clear-cut that, if you come back in, 268 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:26,600 especially with longleaf pine 269 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:28,720 that you can manage with fire afterwards, 270 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,360 you get good habitat almost immediately afterwards. 271 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,480 And so you may have a lag period of a year 272 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:37,160 where you've got a site-prepped area 273 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:38,400 that doesn't have anything growing. 274 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,240 But as soon as the next spring comes, 275 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,760 you're back into some pretty good habitat pretty quickly. 276 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,320 So I think that's important to people understand that. 277 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,080 I know people like to look at trees 278 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:50,880 and they're pretty to look at, 279 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,120 but sometimes that's the best option. 280 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:55,880 Cut timber, get some income, 281 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,120 use that money to put into other places on your property. 282 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:03,280 And longleaf pine's not the answer for everybody, 283 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,320 but whenever we're looking specifically 284 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,680 for people who are interested in wildlife, 285 00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:12,200 we do recommend longleaf on a lot of sites 286 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,080 because you can burn it at such a young age 287 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,640 and early and often as you want to. 288 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,480 I feel like I'm about to take us down a path 289 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:23,880 that is kind of off topic 290 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,320 of what we originally wanted to talk about, 291 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:27,200 but we do it all the time. 292 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:28,040 So what the heck? 293 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,760 But I think you brought up some really good points, Michael. 294 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,120 And a clear cut is not always a bad thing. 295 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,960 And I recommend clear cutting to landowners all the time. 296 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,440 I mean, it's not just a net loss, 297 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:41,800 but it can also be creation of a field, 298 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,920 creation of a food plot, early successional area. 299 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,280 I might have to clear cut one of my stands 300 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:48,800 to attract a buyer. 301 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:50,400 And that's what I think we're gonna get into 302 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,000 in a little while so that I have enough volume 303 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,120 to make them interested in coming to my property 304 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:56,960 and doing the other things that I needed to do 305 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,320 if that's thinning or something else elsewhere. 306 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,640 So there's lots of reasons 307 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:03,040 that you would potentially consider that 308 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:04,840 and it not always be a net negative 309 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,360 in terms of the habitat quality of that site. 310 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,240 I think that that's definitely an important point, 311 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,240 especially when we're working with people with turkeys, 312 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:14,880 there's a lot of concern that, 313 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,080 and it may be somewhat founded 314 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,680 if you were going back with loblolly, 315 00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:23,680 but at least if you replanted with longleaf, 316 00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:25,920 just because you clear cut doesn't mean 317 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:30,920 that there's no turkey habitat for the longterm. 318 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:36,640 Like there could be with some regeneration techniques, 319 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,920 but what about on the other side, Michael? 320 00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:46,240 So you were talking about timber outgrow in the market. 321 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,520 So let's say somebody is interested in thinning 322 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:51,480 to a relatively low basal area 323 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:55,200 and then trying to maintain that in perpetuity 324 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,280 so they don't wanna ever clear cut, 325 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,160 sort of like more like a quail plantation model, I guess. 326 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:05,560 And those trees do get bigger than the market. 327 00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:07,920 Are they done with options to harvest 328 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,680 or what do they do in that situation? 329 00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:13,280 Yeah, so in our area, 330 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:19,280 like a 25 or 26 inch butt is gonna be the maximum size 331 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:20,480 that you can take to a mill. 332 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,720 And even that size is limited 333 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:24,200 to a couple of different mills. 334 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,760 And so once you get to that size, 335 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,280 you're really limited to any kind of timber harvest. 336 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:35,280 And we'll talk about this later with the logging 337 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:39,480 and just the demand and trying to get things done. 338 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,120 Loggers, they like efficiency 339 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,880 and they like high productivity. 340 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:47,520 And when you have a low basal area 341 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,360 staying with a lot of large diameter trees, 342 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,000 it's not very attractive to a logger. 343 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,000 So I think you almost have to make that decision 344 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:57,480 at some point. 345 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,600 If you wanna thin this and you want to have this, 346 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,200 even like a quail type plantation look, 347 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,760 you're pretty much committed to have that. 348 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,360 And what we've done sometimes is we've inter-planted 349 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:12,240 some long leaf or short leaf around those mature trees 350 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:16,200 so that you have some control of your regeneration. 351 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,520 But I think at a certain point, you've basically committed, 352 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,080 like I'm never gonna cut this overstory out of the stand. 353 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:28,240 Yeah, so even if they have a 60 basal area target 354 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,400 or a 40 basal area target, 355 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,520 once they get to that really large, 356 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:34,480 it may even be hard for you to thin it 357 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:38,120 to keep it that low over the long term. 358 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,600 I've encountered a couple of bigger plantations 359 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,240 that have purchased their own logging equipment 360 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:44,200 for that reason. 361 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,160 And I mean, they're just cutting trees 362 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,680 and stacking them a lot of times. 363 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:49,840 Yeah, like at the pulp mill, 364 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,920 typically like a 25 inch butt's kind of maximum that too. 365 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,960 So whenever you end up with these trees 366 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,720 that are low basal area and they're large diameter, 367 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:00,860 a lot of times they're not good enough quality 368 00:16:00,860 --> 00:16:02,520 to even take to a saw mill. 369 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,040 And so they end up as pulpwood trees 370 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,160 that are too big to go to the pulp mill too. 371 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:11,880 So they almost become from a timber value standpoint, 372 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,720 almost become worthless from that sense. 373 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,580 Obviously from an aesthetic standpoint and habitat, 374 00:16:18,580 --> 00:16:21,920 they're worth something to the landowner, 375 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:25,380 but not as far as stumpage value. 376 00:16:25,380 --> 00:16:26,220 Right. 377 00:16:26,220 --> 00:16:30,360 Yeah, so let's go ahead and get into that, 378 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:31,880 the nuts and bolts discussion. 379 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:33,760 I feel like it's how we keep referring to it. 380 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:35,860 But a landowner contacts you, 381 00:16:35,860 --> 00:16:40,080 you establish their objectives and to meet those objectives, 382 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,960 there's gonna be some timber harvest involved. 383 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,860 So how does that process start and what's it look like? 384 00:16:45,860 --> 00:16:52,840 So, I don't wanna sound like a professor Will, 385 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:54,880 but it depends, right? 386 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,120 That's the answer you always get, it depends. 387 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,160 Depends on what they have, 388 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,640 is it something that needs to be first thin 389 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:07,520 that's never been thin? 390 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:08,840 Is it all pulpwood? 391 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:10,920 Is it older timber? 392 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:12,400 Depends on what they have. 393 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:17,400 And typically just broadly speaking, 394 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:22,680 a 30 or 40 acre stand of timber is about the minimum size 395 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,000 that you need to get a crew to come in 396 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,520 and do some type of timber harvest. 397 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,920 Now that could depend on the volume. 398 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,320 You could have a stand that if you're thinning, 399 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,460 it may only be thinning one load to the acre. 400 00:17:36,460 --> 00:17:39,000 30 loads is not as attractive 401 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,480 versus if you're clear cutting a 30 acre stand 402 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,360 that may be running four or five loads to the acre, 403 00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:47,740 high volume, it's a whole lot more attractive for somebody. 404 00:17:47,740 --> 00:17:52,520 So we kind of look at what is on the landowner's property 405 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:54,400 and try to make a good decision 406 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,080 of how to market that timber. 407 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,680 We sell timber by the ton, pay is cut, 408 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,000 so they pay as they cut it and we sell it lump sum. 409 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,200 A lot of times when we're working with people 410 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:10,280 who are wildlife minded, we're selling timber by the ton, 411 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,260 we're negotiating so that we have a lot more control 412 00:18:13,260 --> 00:18:14,920 over when the timber's harvested. 413 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:19,920 So the standard in timber harvest contracts 414 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,240 typically 12 months, 12 to 18 months, 415 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,000 it's kind of a typical contract. 416 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,760 Well, a lot of people, whenever their main objectives 417 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,880 are deer and turkey hunting, 418 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,560 they may not want you there in deer season or turkey season. 419 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,800 And so when you start adding these restrictions 420 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,880 to when somebody can be there and certain months, 421 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,000 say you're already on a property that can only be 422 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:44,880 maybe harvested six months out of the year 423 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,640 due to the condition of the roads 424 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,360 or just the condition of the ground on the property, 425 00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:53,000 and then you add another restriction 426 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,480 of not deer in deer season or not deer in turkey season, 427 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,480 those are the kind of sales that we will try 428 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,520 to negotiate directly with somebody. 429 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,600 And then you can lay all those criteria out there 430 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:05,440 ahead of time. 431 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,080 Like, hey, do you have somebody that can get here 432 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,240 between now and the end of October or by Thanksgiving? 433 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:15,040 Or you can go ahead and kind of establish those parameters. 434 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:16,960 Yeah, it's nice when that's an option, 435 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:18,520 but sometimes it's not. 436 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,840 And if it's not, I mean, I can't tell you how many times 437 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:23,520 that I've given landowners the advice. 438 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:25,340 It's just like, rip the Band-Aid off, 439 00:19:25,340 --> 00:19:27,800 let them harvest this deer season or this turkey season, 440 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:29,760 and you'll thank yourself in a couple of years. 441 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,040 Yeah, I totally agree with that. 442 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:34,200 Especially in this day and age 443 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,680 where it can be hard to move wood sometimes. 444 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,720 It can be, and it can be really hard to move timber. 445 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,200 And I'm more of the mindset, let's get it cut 446 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:45,760 when we can get somebody in there to cut it 447 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,840 and then sit back and enjoy your place moving forward, 448 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:50,760 you know, because there's gonna be things, 449 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,120 just like the, if it's not timber harvest, 450 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:54,200 it's gonna be herbicide. 451 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,240 Hey, we're gonna go into this winter 452 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,420 and we've just killed out your understory, 453 00:19:59,420 --> 00:20:01,160 but next year it's gonna be great. 454 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:02,400 So you're gonna have one deer season 455 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,200 where you're not gonna have a lot of cover in there, 456 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,760 one turkey season where it's more open than you'd like, 457 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,840 but to get to the end goal, that's what you need to do. 458 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:14,320 So that's usually, if people are willing to do that, 459 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,400 that's the best thing is to give a logging company 460 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,120 the most options, the biggest timeframe, 461 00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:23,600 most options, you're also gonna get possibly more money 462 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:25,960 for your timber, given them the, you know, 463 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,760 if you're saying we're gonna give you 12 months, 464 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:30,360 they have a whole lot more flexibility 465 00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:32,800 as you know, timing out the markets and everything 466 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,120 versus you give them three or four month contract. 467 00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:37,800 So it's typically gonna lead to a little bit higher prices 468 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,000 if you give them the more flexibility. 469 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,160 That makes sense. 470 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:49,400 So once the harvest has been planned 471 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,760 and the actual operation starts, you know, 472 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,880 a lot of landowners ask, well, how do we make sure 473 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,040 that the logger is hitting the prescription? 474 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,720 You know, like what we wanted to happen 475 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:01,800 as a result of this harvest, 476 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:03,740 how we wanted the stand to look like. 477 00:21:03,740 --> 00:21:07,800 Yeah, so that, I mean, that all be as a consultant for us, 478 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:09,800 that's something that we go out and kind of oversee 479 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,720 and monitor the harvest while the loggers out there, 480 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:14,480 but that would all be something that would be 481 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,200 on a exhibit map in the contract. 482 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:18,560 And it would be, you know, 483 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,680 the criteria would be outlined in the contract. 484 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:22,560 You know, if it's a first thinning, 485 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,560 what's your desired residual base layer is gonna be 486 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,560 after thinning and the same with say something 487 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,160 that's a second or third thinning. 488 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,080 You're typically, you know, thinning back 489 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,680 to a certain density and that would be up to us 490 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,400 to kind of oversee that and make sure that we're, 491 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:39,640 you know, hitting that density. 492 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:44,240 And the reason I mentioned on, you know, pay us cut sales 493 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,240 if you're doing an operator select harvest, 494 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,840 a thinning where the operators out there 495 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:53,040 picking the trees to cut, 496 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,360 that's the only way you can sell timbers by the time. 497 00:21:56,360 --> 00:21:57,200 Yeah. 498 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,920 When you start, when you go to a lump sum sale, 499 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:02,240 you have to have very defined boundaries. 500 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,360 If it's a thinning, you would have to have the trees 501 00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:07,920 either marked to cut or marked to leave out there 502 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,200 in order to sell it on a lump sum basis. 503 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:11,040 And so that's- 504 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:12,280 Because the forester already knows the volume 505 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,960 that's out there that they should be getting paid for 506 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:15,920 in that situation. 507 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,400 Yeah, you would know on a lump sum sale, 508 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,000 you need, if it's a thinning, 509 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:22,880 you need to have either the leave trees 510 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,020 or the trees that get cut marked. 511 00:22:25,020 --> 00:22:27,840 We would go out there and cruise the timber, 512 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,640 tell the landowner, this is the volume we expect, 513 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:32,060 you know, and this is the prices. 514 00:22:32,060 --> 00:22:34,680 And then we would take bids on that on a lump sum basis. 515 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,760 And the same as a, like a clear cut, 516 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,180 you have very defined boundaries. 517 00:22:39,180 --> 00:22:41,740 You know, an estimate of the volume that's there. 518 00:22:41,740 --> 00:22:44,640 So you can give the landowner expectation. 519 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,440 Here's what the prices are gonna be. 520 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,400 So typically on lump sum sales, 521 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,760 we recommend those if it's, 522 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:54,600 if you have really good access, 523 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:59,240 like all weather logging, you've got good road access, 524 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,680 you're flexible with your length of contract. 525 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,720 Like if you would allow a full 12 months, 526 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,120 basically pretty unrestricted as far as that goes. 527 00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:11,280 And then we go out there and cruise the timber 528 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:12,300 and give the landowner, 529 00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:15,540 we mark out the stream side management zones and anything 530 00:23:15,540 --> 00:23:18,720 so that we know exactly the acreage of what's to be sold. 531 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,480 When you're looking at thinnings, 532 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,860 if you're gonna do a lump sum sale on a thinning, 533 00:23:24,860 --> 00:23:26,780 you have to have the trees marked, 534 00:23:26,780 --> 00:23:28,680 you know, prior to selling the timber. 535 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:33,740 So, Michael, I think you're making a case for it, 536 00:23:33,740 --> 00:23:38,120 but you have asked this occasionally. 537 00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:41,060 So a lot of people have land 538 00:23:41,060 --> 00:23:46,060 and they might be interested in getting a cut done 539 00:23:46,060 --> 00:23:48,520 or selling some timber. 540 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:53,460 So we didn't talk about this up front, 541 00:23:53,460 --> 00:23:55,540 we just kind of assumed that they already went 542 00:23:55,540 --> 00:23:57,720 and found a forester. 543 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,980 But a lot of the things that you're talking about, 544 00:24:00,980 --> 00:24:04,060 like marking trees and trying to keep track 545 00:24:04,060 --> 00:24:05,600 of what the loggers are doing 546 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:06,700 and all those sorts of things, 547 00:24:06,700 --> 00:24:08,220 that would be on the landowner 548 00:24:08,220 --> 00:24:10,940 unless they came to somebody like yourself. 549 00:24:10,940 --> 00:24:12,380 That's correct, yeah. 550 00:24:12,380 --> 00:24:18,260 So Alabama and a lot of the states have a designation 551 00:24:18,260 --> 00:24:21,380 as like, in Alabama, it's a registered forester. 552 00:24:21,380 --> 00:24:22,780 So they'll be a registered forester. 553 00:24:22,780 --> 00:24:24,720 You have to have a four-year degree 554 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:26,380 from an accredited program, 555 00:24:26,380 --> 00:24:27,940 two years of field experience, 556 00:24:27,940 --> 00:24:30,340 and then pass a test to be a registered forester. 557 00:24:30,340 --> 00:24:32,700 So you could be a registered- 558 00:24:32,700 --> 00:24:34,580 That's administered by SAF, right? 559 00:24:34,580 --> 00:24:35,860 Society of American Foresters? 560 00:24:35,860 --> 00:24:36,700 That's correct. 561 00:24:36,700 --> 00:24:39,180 Yeah, and there's a board of registered foresters 562 00:24:39,180 --> 00:24:42,400 in Alabama that kind of oversees that license. 563 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:47,660 So you could be a procurement forester and be registered. 564 00:24:47,660 --> 00:24:52,660 And we kind of designate ourself as consulting foresters, 565 00:24:52,660 --> 00:24:55,040 and we're also members of the Association 566 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:56,420 of Consulting Foresters 567 00:24:56,420 --> 00:24:59,940 that we have a little bit extra continuing education 568 00:24:59,940 --> 00:25:02,340 as a ACF member. 569 00:25:02,340 --> 00:25:04,340 And we basically have said, 570 00:25:04,340 --> 00:25:07,460 we have no business doing anything with procurement 571 00:25:07,460 --> 00:25:09,300 on the procurement side, 572 00:25:09,300 --> 00:25:11,100 but you basically have procurement foresters 573 00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:12,220 and then consulting forester. 574 00:25:12,220 --> 00:25:14,180 And we work with the procurement foresters 575 00:25:14,180 --> 00:25:17,100 to sell the timber to landowners. 576 00:25:17,100 --> 00:25:19,700 But yeah, technically in Alabama, 577 00:25:19,700 --> 00:25:24,260 to advise landowners on forest management activities 578 00:25:24,260 --> 00:25:26,660 and timber inventory, 579 00:25:26,660 --> 00:25:28,540 tell them what the timber's worth, that sort of thing, 580 00:25:28,540 --> 00:25:31,240 you're supposed to be a registered forester. 581 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,140 So to put it in like a real estate analogy, 582 00:25:34,140 --> 00:25:35,260 because I think a lot of people 583 00:25:35,260 --> 00:25:36,500 are probably more familiar with that, 584 00:25:36,500 --> 00:25:39,800 like a consulting forester is more like a seller's agent 585 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,600 and a procurement forester is more like a buyer's agent. 586 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:43,440 Is that right? 587 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,500 Yeah, I think you could say that. 588 00:25:46,500 --> 00:25:47,340 I think you could. 589 00:25:47,340 --> 00:25:48,940 I think Michael thinks my analogy was weak. 590 00:25:48,940 --> 00:25:51,620 He's trying to get me out. 591 00:25:51,620 --> 00:25:53,220 Well, it's not the first time. 592 00:25:53,220 --> 00:25:54,980 I know, it won't be the last. 593 00:25:54,980 --> 00:25:58,300 No, I think sometimes, 594 00:25:58,300 --> 00:26:01,500 I had a conversation with a landowner the other day, 595 00:26:01,500 --> 00:26:03,820 and a lot of times people call us 596 00:26:03,820 --> 00:26:06,620 and they don't really understand what our role is. 597 00:26:06,620 --> 00:26:09,460 They don't know whether we're a timber buyer or what we do. 598 00:26:09,460 --> 00:26:10,340 And so I explained to them, 599 00:26:10,340 --> 00:26:12,440 hey, we're working for the landowner. 600 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,360 We're working for you and your best interest. 601 00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:16,580 Well, then I get the comment, 602 00:26:16,580 --> 00:26:18,460 well, you're kind of the middleman 603 00:26:18,460 --> 00:26:20,620 or you're the broker or whatever. 604 00:26:20,620 --> 00:26:22,780 And it's like, well, no, I personally, 605 00:26:22,780 --> 00:26:25,100 I see a place for the procurement foresters 606 00:26:25,100 --> 00:26:26,020 and what they do. 607 00:26:26,020 --> 00:26:28,580 They deal with the logging side and with the mills, 608 00:26:28,580 --> 00:26:30,780 and they have a lot of responsibility there 609 00:26:30,780 --> 00:26:33,140 to keep up with quotas. 610 00:26:33,140 --> 00:26:35,140 And we're on the side of working for the landowner. 611 00:26:35,140 --> 00:26:35,980 So I think there's- 612 00:26:35,980 --> 00:26:37,660 Yeah, they're working for the good of the mill, 613 00:26:37,660 --> 00:26:38,980 the procurement forester. 614 00:26:38,980 --> 00:26:41,300 Yeah, the mill and for their loggers 615 00:26:41,300 --> 00:26:43,620 and to make sure that woods flow into the mill. 616 00:26:43,620 --> 00:26:45,620 And as a consultant, 617 00:26:45,620 --> 00:26:49,460 we don't have, I have basically no contact with the mill. 618 00:26:49,460 --> 00:26:52,740 Whenever they go on quota, they put a logger on quota. 619 00:26:52,740 --> 00:26:54,580 I hear that from the procurement forester, 620 00:26:54,580 --> 00:26:56,880 like, hey, we can't haul pulpwood the end of this week 621 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,780 because the mill's shutting off, that sort of thing. 622 00:26:59,780 --> 00:27:02,900 I feel like there's a, there's kind of a place for, 623 00:27:02,900 --> 00:27:05,380 you know, both sides in the business. 624 00:27:05,380 --> 00:27:08,140 But I mean, that's kind of the difference. 625 00:27:08,140 --> 00:27:13,140 We, you know, tell landowners that we're working for them 626 00:27:13,140 --> 00:27:14,500 for their best interest. 627 00:27:14,500 --> 00:27:16,020 And we don't have any, you know, 628 00:27:16,020 --> 00:27:18,740 any interest in the procurement side. 629 00:27:18,740 --> 00:27:22,460 Yeah, I think I'm kind of thinking through that, 630 00:27:22,460 --> 00:27:25,260 you know, you're providing several things 631 00:27:25,260 --> 00:27:26,700 that you have the expertise for 632 00:27:26,700 --> 00:27:29,420 that most landowners don't have for themselves, 633 00:27:29,420 --> 00:27:32,620 but you're also there to protect them in a sense. 634 00:27:32,620 --> 00:27:35,620 Like, you're working in their best interest 635 00:27:35,620 --> 00:27:39,460 in making sure that the prices that they're getting, 636 00:27:39,460 --> 00:27:42,980 what gets cut, how it gets cut, how the land is left, 637 00:27:42,980 --> 00:27:46,180 all those sorts of things are in accordance 638 00:27:46,180 --> 00:27:47,300 with their contract. 639 00:27:47,300 --> 00:27:48,420 That's right, and that would be, 640 00:27:48,420 --> 00:27:50,740 if somebody asked me, what are your services? 641 00:27:50,740 --> 00:27:54,660 I mean, that's basically when we get ready to sell timber, 642 00:27:54,660 --> 00:27:57,200 we know what the acreage is, 643 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,620 we know kind of estimated timber volumes. 644 00:28:00,620 --> 00:28:02,500 We mark out the sale boundaries. 645 00:28:02,500 --> 00:28:05,220 We either negotiate or bid out the sale 646 00:28:05,220 --> 00:28:08,940 to, you know, procurement companies. 647 00:28:08,940 --> 00:28:10,580 And then once we get a contract, 648 00:28:10,580 --> 00:28:13,980 then that's, we write the contract in favor of the landowner 649 00:28:13,980 --> 00:28:17,340 to, you know, have a, maybe an advanced payment 650 00:28:17,340 --> 00:28:19,860 on a pay as cut sale that, you know, 651 00:28:19,860 --> 00:28:21,660 once somebody puts a little bit money down, 652 00:28:21,660 --> 00:28:23,900 that kind of helps ensure that they're going to show up 653 00:28:23,900 --> 00:28:25,920 and, you know, do the job. 654 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,380 We have a performance deposit in there that, you know, 655 00:28:29,380 --> 00:28:32,620 if gates get torn up or if the roads are left in bad shape, 656 00:28:32,620 --> 00:28:34,500 that kind of ensures that they're going to come back 657 00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:35,340 and do that. 658 00:28:35,340 --> 00:28:37,720 And so that's kind of what we do. 659 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:38,900 We implement the contract. 660 00:28:38,900 --> 00:28:41,520 We oversee, once the timber harvesting starts, 661 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,740 we're out there overseeing the job, 662 00:28:43,740 --> 00:28:45,300 communicating with the landowner, 663 00:28:45,300 --> 00:28:47,180 making sure that they're happy. 664 00:28:47,180 --> 00:28:49,400 And then we keep up with the loads 665 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,820 and make sure that everything gets paid for, 666 00:28:52,820 --> 00:28:54,540 that gets hauled and that sort of thing. 667 00:28:54,540 --> 00:28:59,300 And, you know, Alabama has a best management practices 668 00:28:59,300 --> 00:29:00,140 for forestry. 669 00:29:00,140 --> 00:29:02,900 And I would say overall, people are very good about, 670 00:29:02,900 --> 00:29:05,580 you know, complying with those, you know, 671 00:29:05,580 --> 00:29:07,320 without us overseeing that. 672 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,660 But we're just, we're there to make sure 673 00:29:09,660 --> 00:29:12,520 that things are done correctly and, you know, 674 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,980 in working for the best interest of the landowner. 675 00:29:15,980 --> 00:29:17,060 And you're actually, you know, 676 00:29:17,060 --> 00:29:20,100 getting paid a fair price for the actual amount 677 00:29:20,100 --> 00:29:22,180 that you're selling that they're taking off the land too. 678 00:29:22,180 --> 00:29:23,100 Right. 679 00:29:23,100 --> 00:29:23,940 Yeah. 680 00:29:24,740 --> 00:29:25,580 Yeah. 681 00:29:25,580 --> 00:29:27,020 I mean, there's, I'm trying to think, 682 00:29:27,020 --> 00:29:28,200 there's so many different questions 683 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:29,140 I want to ask you right now 684 00:29:29,140 --> 00:29:32,860 that I think our audience would be interested in, but yeah. 685 00:29:32,860 --> 00:29:35,920 So making sure, we talked about the contract. 686 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,980 What are, you touched on this briefly, 687 00:29:38,980 --> 00:29:40,340 but just so that we're explicit with it, 688 00:29:40,340 --> 00:29:41,160 what are some of the things 689 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,260 that are typically specified in a contract? 690 00:29:43,260 --> 00:29:48,340 Well, some of the important things are the length 691 00:29:48,340 --> 00:29:50,220 of the contract is always really important. 692 00:29:50,220 --> 00:29:51,380 Like we talked about earlier, 693 00:29:51,380 --> 00:29:52,900 how much time you're going to give somebody 694 00:29:52,900 --> 00:29:53,960 to cut the timber. 695 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:58,740 We do have the performance deposit in there 696 00:29:58,740 --> 00:30:01,580 that basically gets held in an escrow account 697 00:30:01,580 --> 00:30:04,020 to ensure that the contract, 698 00:30:04,020 --> 00:30:06,440 everybody's in compliance with the contract. 699 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,420 It's going to specify in there, 700 00:30:09,420 --> 00:30:11,800 if it's like an operator select thinning, 701 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,440 it's going to specify that it's a fourth 702 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,420 or fifth row thinning desired residual basal area, 703 00:30:18,420 --> 00:30:20,740 plus or minus 10 square feet of basal area. 704 00:30:20,740 --> 00:30:22,880 So it specifies what gets harvested. 705 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,380 If it's like a clear cut, 706 00:30:25,380 --> 00:30:28,820 it'll specify if we're taking out pines 707 00:30:28,820 --> 00:30:31,300 or other trees out of the stream side management zone 708 00:30:31,300 --> 00:30:33,620 or around the perimeter of the sale, 709 00:30:33,620 --> 00:30:38,620 it'll say the trees marked a certain way will get cut. 710 00:30:38,620 --> 00:30:40,900 It's got the per unit prices, 711 00:30:40,900 --> 00:30:44,380 either if it's a per unit sale or pay as cut sale, 712 00:30:44,380 --> 00:30:47,660 it'll have the per unit prices in there 713 00:30:47,660 --> 00:30:49,660 and the product specifications. 714 00:30:49,660 --> 00:30:51,620 So it gives you the specification for pulpwood, 715 00:30:51,620 --> 00:30:53,260 chip and saw, saw timber, poles, 716 00:30:53,260 --> 00:30:54,860 or whatever products that you have, 717 00:30:54,860 --> 00:30:56,220 it'll specify in there exactly 718 00:30:56,220 --> 00:30:58,940 what those product specifications are. 719 00:30:58,940 --> 00:31:00,620 If it's a lump sum contract, 720 00:31:00,620 --> 00:31:03,820 it'll have that lump sum payment amount in there. 721 00:31:03,820 --> 00:31:06,860 Insurance requirements. 722 00:31:06,860 --> 00:31:11,660 We ask that the landowner and our company 723 00:31:11,660 --> 00:31:15,140 be listed as additional insured on their insurance policies 724 00:31:15,140 --> 00:31:16,700 before any harvesting begins. 725 00:31:16,700 --> 00:31:19,700 So that's some of the basis. 726 00:31:19,700 --> 00:31:23,860 I mean, our contract, I think it's maybe only four pages 727 00:31:23,860 --> 00:31:26,440 or so, and it's something that's been kind of adjusted 728 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:27,300 over the years. 729 00:31:27,300 --> 00:31:31,580 But the people that we work with on the buying side, 730 00:31:31,580 --> 00:31:33,220 they're used to seeing our contract 731 00:31:33,220 --> 00:31:34,340 and they're comfortable with it 732 00:31:34,340 --> 00:31:36,820 and they understand what those expectations are. 733 00:31:36,820 --> 00:31:40,620 And so we typically don't have a lot of problems. 734 00:31:40,620 --> 00:31:41,620 Yeah. 735 00:31:41,620 --> 00:31:44,380 I would say that another major benefit 736 00:31:44,380 --> 00:31:45,700 to working with a forester, 737 00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:47,140 especially to the uninitiated, 738 00:31:47,140 --> 00:31:50,660 is there's so much kind of institutional knowledge 739 00:31:50,660 --> 00:31:52,320 that comes along with a local forester 740 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,500 in terms of you know who are the best logging companies 741 00:31:56,500 --> 00:31:57,980 to work with, for instance. 742 00:31:57,980 --> 00:32:00,180 Like, they're gonna leave your property 743 00:32:00,180 --> 00:32:01,620 in really good shape, you know? 744 00:32:01,620 --> 00:32:03,800 And you may not always get to go with that contractor, 745 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,860 but you at least have a good starting point 746 00:32:06,860 --> 00:32:07,820 of who to choose from. 747 00:32:07,820 --> 00:32:10,140 And then you know the markets, right? 748 00:32:10,140 --> 00:32:12,540 So like, we should go ahead and cut these trees now 749 00:32:12,540 --> 00:32:14,140 versus it'll be a little bit more valuable 750 00:32:14,140 --> 00:32:17,180 if we wait two, three, five, 10 years, whatever. 751 00:32:17,180 --> 00:32:19,780 Just like all those little nuanced details 752 00:32:19,780 --> 00:32:23,700 that you know because you work in that area every day 753 00:32:23,700 --> 00:32:24,740 and deal with those loggers 754 00:32:24,740 --> 00:32:26,460 so you know what they're looking for. 755 00:32:26,460 --> 00:32:29,020 Yeah, and one thing, just when you mentioned that, 756 00:32:29,020 --> 00:32:30,780 knowing kind of when to harvest 757 00:32:30,780 --> 00:32:34,860 and what's in demand in the area 758 00:32:34,860 --> 00:32:35,900 and that sort of thing. 759 00:32:35,900 --> 00:32:38,180 There's one stand in particular that I'm thinking of 760 00:32:38,180 --> 00:32:40,700 that's the average diameter now 761 00:32:40,700 --> 00:32:42,460 is probably 12 inches or so, 762 00:32:42,460 --> 00:32:47,420 but the tree quality in this stand is just really good. 763 00:32:47,420 --> 00:32:50,260 I mean, the seedling genetics and everything 764 00:32:50,260 --> 00:32:51,160 were really good. 765 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,700 We did a couple of marked thinnings in this stand 766 00:32:53,700 --> 00:32:55,820 and it's just really high quality. 767 00:32:55,820 --> 00:32:59,980 Well, right now, let's just say, 768 00:32:59,980 --> 00:33:02,140 throwing out there, the stumpage price 769 00:33:02,140 --> 00:33:05,860 for chip and saw or small saw timber 770 00:33:05,860 --> 00:33:08,540 is probably about half right now, 771 00:33:08,540 --> 00:33:12,060 depending on what market you're in versus a pole. 772 00:33:12,060 --> 00:33:16,660 So letting those 12 or 13 inch trees 773 00:33:16,660 --> 00:33:19,900 grow just another inch in DBH 774 00:33:19,900 --> 00:33:23,360 to where they may meet that pole class, 775 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,820 you could double your stumpage value right there. 776 00:33:25,820 --> 00:33:31,780 And then vice versa, if you have a lot of, 777 00:33:31,780 --> 00:33:34,340 if your stand's averaging 12 or 13 inches 778 00:33:34,340 --> 00:33:36,100 and it doesn't have pole quality 779 00:33:36,100 --> 00:33:38,180 and somebody's interested in maximizing 780 00:33:38,180 --> 00:33:40,260 their income off of that, 781 00:33:40,260 --> 00:33:42,180 it may be time to cut it now. 782 00:33:42,180 --> 00:33:45,780 You may be at the peak of the market 783 00:33:45,780 --> 00:33:49,520 for your particular stand in your particular market 784 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,580 if you don't have pole quality timber, 785 00:33:51,580 --> 00:33:54,060 but if you do and you have a high percentage of poles, 786 00:33:54,060 --> 00:33:57,300 just wait in a few years, you could double your stumpage. 787 00:33:57,300 --> 00:34:01,000 So that's the kind of stuff that we can see 788 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,700 when we go out there, like, hey, hold on to this stand. 789 00:34:03,700 --> 00:34:05,060 If you're interested in clear cutting, 790 00:34:05,060 --> 00:34:06,820 let's hold it a few more years, 791 00:34:06,820 --> 00:34:11,420 or you have health issues with, 792 00:34:11,420 --> 00:34:13,580 we've had a lot of pine beetle infestations 793 00:34:13,580 --> 00:34:17,620 with the lack of thinning and things like that. 794 00:34:17,620 --> 00:34:19,020 If you see issues where you're like, 795 00:34:19,020 --> 00:34:21,260 you really need to go ahead and cut this 796 00:34:21,260 --> 00:34:22,860 and we can make a recommendation 797 00:34:22,860 --> 00:34:24,660 based on whatever we see out there. 798 00:34:24,660 --> 00:34:29,460 Along those lines, it made me think about this 799 00:34:29,460 --> 00:34:33,400 when Will asked you that previous question. 800 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:38,400 So, well, I guess I'm asking for you to tell us, 801 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:48,040 but with landowners, are they just coming to you 802 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,160 when they think they're ready to do it, 803 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,080 or do you have some that you're working with 804 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,760 over a long term where they may have long stints of time 805 00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,000 where they're not cutting anything? 806 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,680 How does that work in terms of your relationship 807 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:03,120 with landowners? 808 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,160 Yeah, so most of the time what we do 809 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:10,160 is once we've established a relationship with a landowner, 810 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,560 we kind of keep that property in our database 811 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,600 and keep up with what's going on out there. 812 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,480 So then we kind of know year to year, 813 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,760 like, hey, you have a long leaf stand 814 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,680 that's getting ready to be, it needs to be burned. 815 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:23,440 It hasn't had a burn since we planted it 816 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,600 two or three years ago, it's ready to be burned. 817 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,640 We know plantation age is out there 818 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:30,040 when they're approaching thinning age. 819 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:31,000 So we kind of keep up, 820 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,840 once we have an established relationship 821 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,240 with a landowner, we kind of keep up with the database 822 00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:38,240 and know what those properties need. 823 00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:40,160 And a lot of times what we'll do, 824 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,200 if somebody has enough acreage, 825 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:47,200 we'll do like a five year plan that just says tentatively, 826 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,240 we think this is what needs to happen 827 00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:51,400 over the next five years. 828 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,960 And that gives them kind of something to look at 829 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,240 and us too, to go back and say, okay, hey, 830 00:35:56,240 --> 00:35:58,840 we recommended, we need to thin this next year. 831 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:00,360 We need to be out there inspecting that 832 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:01,840 and making sure it's big enough to thin 833 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,400 and keeping in touch with the landowner. 834 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,880 So that's what preferably what I like to do, 835 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,080 just kind of give them a little short term, 836 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,280 sometimes we go out 10 or 15 years on properties, 837 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,080 but even just a five year plan of, 838 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:20,320 hey, this is what can be expected over the next five years 839 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,760 if we don't have any kind of natural disaster 840 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,480 or anything to cause us to deviate from this. 841 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,920 So in that case, when you're kind of planning out, 842 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,360 you know, potentially many stands that, 843 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,240 you know, they're gonna be in a window of time 844 00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:43,760 where you're looking at a thinning or some sort of harvest. 845 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:45,720 And then on top of that, 846 00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:48,120 you're keeping up with what's going on with the market. 847 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,960 So maybe next year, the market is really well. 848 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,960 So then you would come back to the landowners like, 849 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,760 well, you know, we planned on it being two years out, 850 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:58,600 but the market's excellent right now. 851 00:36:58,600 --> 00:36:59,720 So you should probably, 852 00:36:59,720 --> 00:37:04,480 so is that the sort of dynamic that you're working with? 853 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:05,320 Correct, yeah. 854 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,360 So we had several large timber sales 855 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,640 that we had scheduled to sell. 856 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,240 Just generally speaking in our area, 857 00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:17,280 we get a little bit better prices in the winter time. 858 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:18,440 You know, things get wet, 859 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,240 people can't get as much wood to the mill, 860 00:37:20,240 --> 00:37:21,520 the wood flow slows down 861 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:22,720 and you have a little peak in price. 862 00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:24,480 So we had several larger timber sales 863 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,000 that we had scheduled to kind of put out for sale this fall 864 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,200 and about six weeks ago, 865 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:31,480 we've been getting a ton of rain. 866 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,240 You know, May and June was really wet. 867 00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:37,640 I think one area I looked at for the month of May, 868 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:39,960 we were like 10 inches above, you know, 869 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:41,080 our average rainfall. 870 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:41,920 And so we started- 871 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:43,040 Yeah, we made it all the way through July 872 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:44,480 without even really getting dry. 873 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:45,440 It was crazy. 874 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:46,280 It was crazy. 875 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,240 It's been raining here every day, man. 876 00:37:48,240 --> 00:37:50,240 So we started getting these calls like, 877 00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:53,080 hey, we need wood, we got good prices. 878 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,040 And so some of those sales that we had planned to put out, 879 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:57,280 you know, this fall, 880 00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,920 we went ahead and advertised those and sold those, 881 00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:02,320 you know, back in kind of June, early July, 882 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:03,680 whenever the prices were up. 883 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:05,360 So we kind of look for things like that, 884 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,600 little peaks in the market where we can, 885 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:09,080 you know, take advantage of that. 886 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,880 And, you know, it doesn't always work out that way 887 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,720 to get the best prices. 888 00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:18,360 Sometimes you have to sell stuff when you can sell it, 889 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,320 but that's what we try to do, you know, 890 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,900 especially if it's something that can be cut in wet weather, 891 00:38:22,900 --> 00:38:24,600 we try to kind of have those ready 892 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,640 and put them out when the markets are right. 893 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:28,480 Yeah. 894 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:29,560 Yeah, that makes sense. 895 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:35,480 That's interesting too, to kind of think about the, 896 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,040 I'm just thinking about the role that the foresters playing. 897 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,920 Cause I know people wonder about this, you know, 898 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,920 like you said, people, they come to you 899 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:46,560 and don't even know what your role is. 900 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,960 And they're asking you about that up front, 901 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,280 but you can start to stack things 902 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,240 that are being accomplished, you know, 903 00:38:55,240 --> 00:38:58,360 that not only are you providing some level of protection 904 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,360 and expertise and making sure that the wood's paid for, 905 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,640 that's taken off, but also keeping an eye on the markets 906 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,700 and letting some fine scale adjustment 907 00:39:07,700 --> 00:39:10,720 that could maximize revenue on the same wood. 908 00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:13,720 That way, like, you know, you start stacking those things up 909 00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:15,240 that can make a pretty big difference 910 00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:19,400 in terms of what people are doing on their land 911 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,560 and how much they're making in the process. 912 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:24,400 Yeah. 913 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,680 I mean, I think you can look at it as, you know, 914 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,800 both with consulting foresters and wildlife biologists. 915 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,480 Yes, it is an expense to work with those people, 916 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,480 but in the longterm, you know, 917 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,280 your net revenue may benefit 918 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,680 from having worked with those folks, you know, 919 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,520 from the timber side for all the reasons we've just discussed 920 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:45,520 and with the wildlife side, 921 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:46,980 making sure that you're spending money 922 00:39:46,980 --> 00:39:48,800 where it's most effectively helping you 923 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:50,660 accomplish your objectives. 924 00:39:50,660 --> 00:39:52,680 I mean, cause all three of us run into landowners 925 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:54,880 all the time that are spending lots of money on things 926 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:56,680 that really aren't moving the needle. 927 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:58,360 So it's not just a cost. 928 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,720 I mean, it can result in some significant savings too. 929 00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:03,840 Yeah. 930 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,200 And then, you know, if you have, 931 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:10,960 how much is that additional 20% of gobblers? 932 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,400 Yeah, put a number, put a value on that. 933 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:15,240 Right. 934 00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:16,840 So start thinking about it that way. 935 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:18,400 Yeah, it may have cost you a little bit more, 936 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,520 but you've got 20% more gobblers, 937 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:22,680 might be worth that, right? 938 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,880 I promise when there's six or seven of them 939 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,920 screaming at you on an April morning, 940 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:29,900 you're not going to be worried about that. 941 00:40:29,900 --> 00:40:30,740 Yeah, nope. 942 00:40:30,740 --> 00:40:33,560 That's fine. 943 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,140 Michael, one of the things that I wanted to ask is, 944 00:40:37,140 --> 00:40:39,760 I was going to ask you, 945 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,400 I think with a little bit of a negative slant to it, 946 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,800 like what are the things that landowners should not do 947 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,080 when working with a forester? 948 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:47,680 The things that like, or barriers, 949 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,440 the barriers that they create to helping you 950 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:51,880 be most effective in your job. 951 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,280 But I'll flip that around and say, you know, 952 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,000 what are the things a landowner can do 953 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,240 to help you be most effective at helping them? 954 00:40:59,240 --> 00:41:02,280 Right, so like, are there specific things 955 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,040 that you recommend to landowners that give them heartburn 956 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,320 or are difficult to overcome, 957 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,900 or that they're hesitant about? 958 00:41:11,900 --> 00:41:17,120 I mean, we talked about it for just a second earlier, 959 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,560 but having the period, like ripping the Band-Aid off, 960 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,200 especially when it comes to herbicide applications, 961 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,000 it's hard sometimes because like right now 962 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,520 is when we're doing a lot of understory spraying 963 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,040 and people see, you know, hey, I've got this good, 964 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,880 you know, understory, the habitat looks good. 965 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:39,720 And we have intentions to do this, you know, 966 00:41:39,720 --> 00:41:42,160 kind of a mid rotation treatment. 967 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,040 Well, they're afraid, hey, 968 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:45,520 we're going to wipe that stuff out. 969 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:47,920 And then all of a sudden my deer 970 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:49,440 aren't going to be here this winter. 971 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,320 And my turkeys aren't going to be here this spring 972 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:52,680 because it's just going to be barren. 973 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,300 But, you know, that's one thing that I struggle with. 974 00:41:55,300 --> 00:41:57,040 I've had several conversations lately 975 00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,800 with landowners who are concerned about that, 976 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:01,400 that, you know, if we spray now, 977 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,260 we're going to have a bunch of dead stuff out there 978 00:42:03,260 --> 00:42:05,400 going into the fall and winter. 979 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:09,720 But I just kind of ensure them that we've done this enough. 980 00:42:09,720 --> 00:42:13,120 If you do that in a pine stand this fall, 981 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,300 and then followed up with a prescribed burn, 982 00:42:16,300 --> 00:42:19,280 you're going to love what you see come springtime. 983 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,160 And it's going to be a whole lot better going forward. 984 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:24,300 So that's one thing. 985 00:42:24,300 --> 00:42:28,320 You know, we struggle and on the timber harvest side 986 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:33,320 with, you know, debris piles and expectations of, 987 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,900 you know, like the best area to set up a loader 988 00:42:35,900 --> 00:42:38,040 is in the middle of a food plot, you know, 989 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:39,200 on top of a knob, 990 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,320 there's nowhere else to turn an 18 wheeler around. 991 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,440 And, you know, so we kind of, 992 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,200 we have to work through things like that sometimes. 993 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,920 And that's one thing as a consultant is that 994 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:55,280 I'm also trying to give the landowner realistic expectations 995 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,320 and kind of work with him and say, this is, 996 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,960 I know it's not what you want to see, you know, 997 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,640 having a loading deck sitting right here in your food plot, 998 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:05,240 but that's the reality of it. 999 00:43:05,240 --> 00:43:06,900 You know, we're going to have to, you know, 1000 00:43:06,900 --> 00:43:09,080 spend a little bit of money burning those piles 1001 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:11,200 and pushing up debris and getting that back in shape, 1002 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,400 just because in some places there's nowhere else 1003 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:15,360 to turn a truck around, you know, 1004 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:16,880 it's going to compact your field. 1005 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,040 And so there's things like that, that, you know, 1006 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,920 sometimes I feel like I'm kind of, you know, 1007 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,940 I'm working for the landowner for their best interest, 1008 00:43:25,940 --> 00:43:28,360 but I also kind of have to tell them, this is, you know, 1009 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:30,720 this is part of the deal to get to where you want to be. 1010 00:43:30,720 --> 00:43:33,160 We got to work through, you know, these things. 1011 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,480 Yeah. This is the reality of logging. 1012 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,560 Yeah. It's not a, it's not a clean process. 1013 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:43,080 And, you know, even if, even if you're in a market 1014 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,720 to where you can haul pine tops off of chip and saw 1015 00:43:45,720 --> 00:43:47,520 and saw timber and get those cleaned up, 1016 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,680 you still end up with a lot of debris, you know, 1017 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:52,080 a lot of log piles. 1018 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,160 And if you got a lot of, you know, 1019 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,000 cankers and stuff at the base of the trees 1020 00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,880 that get cut off, you get these big piles of butts, 1021 00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:01,680 you know, that are hard to burn up. 1022 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,120 And that kind of stuff, it's hard to, 1023 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,640 it's hard for landowners to see that, you know, 1024 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:08,720 until it is sitting there on their property 1025 00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:10,040 and they're like, what do I do now? 1026 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:11,080 You know, so. Right. 1027 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,280 One good thing that if I have another job close by, 1028 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:15,920 you know, to be able to take somebody 1029 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,740 and show them an active site and kind of say, 1030 00:44:18,740 --> 00:44:20,920 this is what you can expect your place to look like, 1031 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:21,960 that's really helpful, isn't it? 1032 00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,680 If nobody's ever cut timber before, you know, 1033 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:26,960 they just don't know what they're going to, 1034 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:28,580 kind of what they're going to be left with, 1035 00:44:28,580 --> 00:44:30,640 you know, from a mess standpoint. 1036 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,440 Yeah. Do you prefer to have the logging debris 1037 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,640 spread throughout the stand or do you like it piled? 1038 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:42,640 So my preference is on a first thinning, you know, 1039 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:46,160 you have a, basically you're cutting the stuff down 1040 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,040 to a two or three inch top a lot of times. 1041 00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,280 So on the pulpwoods, on a first thinning, 1042 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,280 I prefer that they spread that back through the rows. 1043 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,200 You can pretty much, if you spread it through the corridors 1044 00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:58,560 and then you run over it, 1045 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,600 it'll just about disappear on a first thinning. 1046 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:06,200 Now, as you get to older timber where you have larger, 1047 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:10,120 larger piles of debris, I like to pile those. 1048 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,760 Even if it means cutting out of a bigger area 1049 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,060 around your loading area to pile those, 1050 00:45:15,060 --> 00:45:18,080 I like to pile and try to burn those tops if possible, 1051 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:21,340 because if you start distributing those big tops 1052 00:45:21,340 --> 00:45:24,200 back out in the stand, it kind of gets to be a mess. 1053 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,260 And then if you want to follow that up 1054 00:45:26,260 --> 00:45:28,680 with the prescribed burn, you know, in the future, 1055 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,480 then you end up having these big, big brush piles 1056 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,360 that are out in the woods that are getting too hot. 1057 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:38,240 So, but it depends sometimes, it depends on, you know, 1058 00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:41,380 the size of the loading area and, you know, 1059 00:45:41,380 --> 00:45:43,280 what the timber's like and that sort of thing. 1060 00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,720 But I typically, first thinning, like to spread the, 1061 00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:49,680 distribute the debris back through the thinning 1062 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,280 and on older stands, try to pile it so we can burn it 1063 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,680 if the landowner wants it to disappear. 1064 00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:57,680 Or you can have me come burn it for you, right? 1065 00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:58,520 Yeah. 1066 00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:00,000 Like that stand we did last year. 1067 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:03,240 Yeah, yeah, you definitely helped us out. 1068 00:46:03,240 --> 00:46:06,520 That wasn't part of the plan, but it got burned. 1069 00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:11,720 Well, Michael, you guys addressed, you know, 1070 00:46:11,720 --> 00:46:13,460 thinking about landowner barriers, 1071 00:46:13,460 --> 00:46:17,560 but I wanted to ask you directly because it seems like, 1072 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,820 at least in the recent past, this has become pretty common 1073 00:46:20,820 --> 00:46:23,240 across some parts of the South. 1074 00:46:23,240 --> 00:46:27,360 And you mentioned it earlier, what if we're in a bad market 1075 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,520 and we're having a real hard time selling timber, 1076 00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,480 like maybe you've got, you know, a good product, 1077 00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:37,000 but you don't have a market, what are, I mean, 1078 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,320 are they just stuck or what are some strategies 1079 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:42,700 that you might take to move wood? 1080 00:46:42,700 --> 00:46:45,800 Because I think a lot of people find themselves 1081 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:47,920 in that kind of situation where they would like 1082 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,520 to cut timber because they know that they need to do it 1083 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:52,760 to meet some wildlife objectives, 1084 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,000 but they're just having a hard time getting it done. 1085 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,480 That's a very good question right now. 1086 00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:02,320 Yeah, so I would say on thinnings, 1087 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,720 like if you have an unthinned stand of pine 1088 00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:07,500 and you're in a tough market area, like right now, 1089 00:47:07,500 --> 00:47:12,200 and one of our mills closed that, you know, 1090 00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,200 kind of in one of our areas that we work in. 1091 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,560 And so there's still the demand for pulpwood, 1092 00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:19,080 but the prices have went down. 1093 00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,640 And so landowners are going to have some time to, you know, 1094 00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:25,040 adjusting to a very low pulpwood prices. 1095 00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,280 You know, we're talking maybe a dollar or $2 a ton 1096 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:29,840 in the future for pine pulpwood, 1097 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,240 where it used to be eight or $10 a ton. 1098 00:47:32,240 --> 00:47:34,240 That's hard for a landowner to stomach 1099 00:47:34,240 --> 00:47:36,820 if they're used to getting, you know, more money. 1100 00:47:36,820 --> 00:47:39,420 But in those situations, 1101 00:47:39,420 --> 00:47:41,920 I say you gotta take what you can get 1102 00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,520 and get your timber thin so that it can be growing, 1103 00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:46,040 it doesn't get stagnant. 1104 00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,360 Whether you're trying to manage for wildlife 1105 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,160 or you just want your timber to grow, 1106 00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,520 on those unthinned plantations, 1107 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:56,620 you take what you can get for the stumpage 1108 00:47:56,620 --> 00:48:00,000 when you can get it and get somebody in there to thin it. 1109 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,080 But that's kind of where we are in some market. 1110 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,240 Now, there's certain areas to where, you know, 1111 00:48:06,240 --> 00:48:08,240 the pulpwood prices are still okay 1112 00:48:08,240 --> 00:48:09,880 and you can be a little more selective 1113 00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,040 or you may try to wait till you get a little better price. 1114 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,960 But in certain markets where it's hard to get thin, 1115 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:16,640 you just, you take what you can get 1116 00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:18,660 when you can get a crew there 1117 00:48:18,660 --> 00:48:20,240 and go ahead and get it thin 1118 00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:22,760 and get the canopy open and let your trees grow. 1119 00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:26,640 And we also will package things together, too. 1120 00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,080 If we have four or five landowners, 1121 00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,040 kind of in a small area where, you know, 1122 00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:34,080 say within a five or 10 mile radius of each other, 1123 00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:35,960 we'll kind of package those together 1124 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,080 because they may have a mix. 1125 00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:39,560 You know, somebody may have a first thinning, 1126 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:41,600 somebody may have a second thinning, 1127 00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:43,080 you know, they may have different things 1128 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:44,560 and we can package those together, 1129 00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:47,760 maybe to sell to one buyer, one dealer, 1130 00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,680 and maybe that same logger cuts them all 1131 00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:52,600 or maybe they have a couple of loggers, you know, 1132 00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:53,440 that cut them. 1133 00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:54,800 But we've been doing more of that, too, 1134 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:55,640 in the last few years. 1135 00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:57,960 It's kind of putting little packages together 1136 00:48:57,960 --> 00:48:59,280 of timber sales, you know, 1137 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,760 and trying to work with somebody to get them done. 1138 00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:03,040 That's what it takes sometimes. 1139 00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:06,320 If you have a large enough, you know, property, 1140 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,840 you may be able to package a, you know, 1141 00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:11,280 we'll give you a little bit of clear cut over here, 1142 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:12,960 we'll give you some better wood over here 1143 00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:14,800 in order to get this first thinning done. 1144 00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,600 But if you're talking, if you only own a hundred acres, 1145 00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:20,520 you know, we may, you know, have your property 1146 00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:22,360 and a couple of others kind of in a package 1147 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,040 to try to get, you know, multiple landowners done 1148 00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:25,880 at the same time. 1149 00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:30,880 Because it just depends, the problem with the logging 1150 00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,680 and what it's hard for people to understand 1151 00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,240 when they see these dumpage prices reports and stuff 1152 00:49:37,240 --> 00:49:39,040 come out, or they hear their neighbor talking about, 1153 00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:41,100 hey, I got this much per ton. 1154 00:49:41,100 --> 00:49:43,560 Is it so property specific? 1155 00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,040 You know, it has, there's so many things that are involved 1156 00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:49,080 in what somebody is willing to pay for something 1157 00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:51,120 and when it can get done. 1158 00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:54,700 You know, the access, is it right off the side 1159 00:49:54,700 --> 00:49:56,960 of a paved road that, you know, 1160 00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,200 can be accessed all year round? 1161 00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,880 Does it have a mile or two of, you know, 1162 00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:03,800 internal woods roads you have to go 1163 00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:05,040 that are gonna have to go down, 1164 00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:06,940 that are gonna have to be maintained? 1165 00:50:06,940 --> 00:50:10,520 It's getting to be more of a problem now 1166 00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:14,580 where people are on limited quota for certain products 1167 00:50:14,580 --> 00:50:18,040 that it's beneficial sometimes to have a timber sale 1168 00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,760 that has multiple products, you know, on one stand. 1169 00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:25,360 If you got a first thin in this 90% pine pulpwood, 1170 00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:27,920 sometimes people won't, you know, they just say, 1171 00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:29,000 I can't do it, I'm sorry. 1172 00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:33,740 Because they need to cut 50 loads of wood a week to survive. 1173 00:50:33,740 --> 00:50:36,760 They may only have 30 woods, 30 loads a week 1174 00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,480 of pine pulpwood quota at the mill. 1175 00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,240 So on a Wednesday, they're done. 1176 00:50:42,240 --> 00:50:43,340 We've hauled all of our quota. 1177 00:50:43,340 --> 00:50:45,240 We don't have anything to do the next two days. 1178 00:50:45,240 --> 00:50:48,480 And so it just, it really depends on, you know, 1179 00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:53,280 what market you're in and kind of how wet it is outside. 1180 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:56,080 And there's just a lot of factors that go into it. 1181 00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,180 And that's what having a forester 1182 00:50:58,180 --> 00:51:00,360 that knows your local markets 1183 00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:01,720 is gonna be really beneficial 1184 00:51:01,720 --> 00:51:04,840 to kind of help you understand all those. 1185 00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:05,680 Yeah. 1186 00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:06,500 All those things. 1187 00:51:06,500 --> 00:51:08,600 Yeah, I feel like these days in the deep South, 1188 00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,160 especially, like if you can get pine pulpwood 1189 00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:13,920 to pay its way off the stump and off your property, 1190 00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,160 you're doing pretty good. 1191 00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:17,720 Yeah, I agree. 1192 00:51:17,720 --> 00:51:20,000 Yeah, there's, like I said, 1193 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:20,880 there's still some areas 1194 00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:22,400 that have a pretty good pulpwood market, 1195 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:24,200 but there's also some that, you know, 1196 00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,920 you basically are having to give it away to get it done. 1197 00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:30,600 And in those cases, if you find somebody that can do it, 1198 00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:32,920 you take what you can get and get at things. 1199 00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:34,620 If you look at the last year, 1200 00:51:34,620 --> 00:51:37,640 we had this really bad Southern Pine Beetle outbreak 1201 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:39,520 across Mississippi and Alabama, 1202 00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:43,280 and they had, the Alabama Forester Commission 1203 00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:45,840 has a GIS map with all the locations 1204 00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:49,200 that they detected from the air. 1205 00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:52,200 And you start zooming in and looking at those, 1206 00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,120 a high percentage of those pine beetle infestations 1207 00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:58,360 are in unthinned pine plantation. 1208 00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:00,560 I mean, it's, I was scrolling, you know, 1209 00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,360 looking Northwest Alabama, Central Alabama, 1210 00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,480 it's probably 80 or 90% of the outbreaks you see 1211 00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:08,960 here in unthinned plantations 1212 00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:13,920 that people have either not gotten thinned by choice 1213 00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:15,120 or they haven't, you know, 1214 00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:17,720 been able to get somebody to thin those, that's where. 1215 00:52:17,720 --> 00:52:21,320 Yeah, I hear that so much now, especially in that area. 1216 00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:22,160 Yeah. 1217 00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:28,080 And people asking me for, what do I do here? 1218 00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:32,120 It was definitely an important problem to deal with. 1219 00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:35,400 One thing I did want to ask about, Michael, 1220 00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:40,400 was at first thin and residual basal area. 1221 00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:45,920 You know, a lot of folks get nervous about going too low 1222 00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,400 because we're talking about obviously like for, you know, 1223 00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:50,080 forest management for wildlife. 1224 00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:52,760 And with that, a lot of times we're thinning to basal areas 1225 00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,520 that are lower than what would typically be recommended 1226 00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:57,200 for just timber production, right? 1227 00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:00,600 So at that first thin, 1228 00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:03,520 if a landowner wants to go to a lower basal area 1229 00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:07,880 than is, you know, tradition for the forest industry, 1230 00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:12,320 are there concerns there about the stand 1231 00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:14,560 and the stand's health? 1232 00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,480 And particularly, I'm thinking about wind throw, you know, 1233 00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:19,760 and how do you handle that? 1234 00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,320 Yeah, so if I had a preference, 1235 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,280 what I would prefer to do is thin a little bit more 1236 00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:27,920 traditionally on the first thinning 1237 00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,640 and then let those trees recover 1238 00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:32,640 and let the crowns fill out a little bit more 1239 00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:34,120 and let them get a little more stability 1240 00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:35,600 in the root system and everything, 1241 00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:38,560 and then hit them a little heavier at a second thinning. 1242 00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:40,560 That would be my preference. 1243 00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:41,400 Right. 1244 00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:42,920 And it kind of depends too, 1245 00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:46,600 if you have a stand that has, you know, 1246 00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:48,480 pretty high live crown ratio, 1247 00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:49,800 when you go in there to first thin, 1248 00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:51,320 I feel a little bit better about thinning 1249 00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:52,160 it a little heavier. 1250 00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:53,640 You know, sometimes these stands 1251 00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:55,680 that are overdue for thinning, 1252 00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:58,120 you'll see they have just a little tiny, 1253 00:53:58,120 --> 00:53:59,960 just a little tiny top, you know. 1254 00:53:59,960 --> 00:54:00,960 A little Q-tip top. 1255 00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:03,440 Yeah, a little small green top, 1256 00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:04,320 and they're real small. 1257 00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:05,880 You know, the average diameter's 1258 00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:07,800 six or seven inches in the stand. 1259 00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,680 If you go in there and thin something like that, 1260 00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:14,280 that's, let's say it's 50 or 60 feet tall 1261 00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:15,400 with a really small crown, 1262 00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:17,160 and you go in there and hit that really heavy 1263 00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:18,040 on the first thinning, 1264 00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:20,000 you're gonna have a lot of wind throw. 1265 00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:20,840 Mm-hmm. 1266 00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:22,960 And some people are okay with that. 1267 00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:24,000 You know, some people are like, 1268 00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:25,480 hey, that's fine. 1269 00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:27,560 If I end up with a 50 basal area 1270 00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:29,040 and some of them fall over, 1271 00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:30,720 then that's not a big deal to me. 1272 00:54:30,720 --> 00:54:33,200 But, you know, you just have to know that 1273 00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:36,240 going into it, that if you thin that too heavy 1274 00:54:36,240 --> 00:54:38,280 on the first thinning, you know, 1275 00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:41,320 ideally, my preference would be, you know, 1276 00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,160 maybe a 70 to 80 basal area in that range 1277 00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:45,800 on the first thinning, 1278 00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,640 and then five years, four, five, six years later, 1279 00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:49,880 come back a second thinning, 1280 00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:51,920 and then take it down to whatever, 1281 00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:55,040 you know, if it's a 50, 60 or lower. 1282 00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:57,360 If you think you're in a place where you have that, 1283 00:54:57,360 --> 00:54:58,640 that is an option to you. 1284 00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:00,800 But like, if you're having a really hard time 1285 00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:02,520 moving the trees, 1286 00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:04,160 then that may be a situation 1287 00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:06,600 where you think about going lower at the first cut 1288 00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:08,560 in case we can't get them back, right? 1289 00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:09,400 Yeah. 1290 00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:10,760 Yeah, it just sticks up, you know, 1291 00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:12,960 that there's some risk associated with it. 1292 00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:14,440 Mm-hmm. 1293 00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:15,280 Yeah. 1294 00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:20,480 Well, Michael, we're getting close to an hour, 1295 00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:22,400 and we want to be respectful of your time, 1296 00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:23,800 because I know you got a lot to do. 1297 00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:24,640 I'm good. 1298 00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:26,080 What have we failed to- 1299 00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:26,920 I'm here for it. 1300 00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:29,120 Yeah. 1301 00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:31,040 What have we failed to ask you? 1302 00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:32,960 Because, you know, you've got a lot of experience 1303 00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:34,400 working with folks. 1304 00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:37,080 What do people need to know that we haven't asked you? 1305 00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:41,560 I don't know. 1306 00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:44,840 I think there's a whole lot of aspects in forest management 1307 00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:45,720 that we deal with, 1308 00:55:45,720 --> 00:55:49,200 and I do think it's important to have somebody 1309 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:50,480 kind of working on your behalf. 1310 00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:52,400 Because you talk about, 1311 00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:55,160 we've talked mostly about timber harvesting. 1312 00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:57,240 You know, we haven't really gotten into 1313 00:55:57,240 --> 00:55:58,800 herbicide prescriptions. 1314 00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:01,800 You know, if you're doing kind of a mid-story, 1315 00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:03,240 under-story treatment, 1316 00:56:03,240 --> 00:56:04,960 or if you're doing site prep treatments 1317 00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,200 with herbicide prescriptions. 1318 00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:08,520 I feel like we need to have you back 1319 00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:11,120 for a whole other episode with that. 1320 00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:13,960 You know, and then you talk about seedling genetics, 1321 00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:16,360 you know, whether you're going to species, 1322 00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:19,160 you're going to plant longleaf, loblolly, or shortleaf. 1323 00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,960 And if it's loblolly, do you want third gen, 1324 00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:25,320 open pollinated or mass control pollinated seedlings? 1325 00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:28,320 And what spacing are you going to plant those on 1326 00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:31,720 that say, if you want some timber production, 1327 00:56:31,720 --> 00:56:34,840 but you still have wildlife as a secondary objective, 1328 00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,640 you probably don't want to plant 700 trees per acre. 1329 00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:41,320 I don't recommend that for timber production now either. 1330 00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:43,120 I mean, we're going a lot lower density, 1331 00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:45,240 but you know, those are things to think about. 1332 00:56:45,240 --> 00:56:48,600 So I feel like invasive species control mean, 1333 00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:51,380 I don't know, when we're out there on the property, 1334 00:56:51,380 --> 00:56:52,560 we see all these things. 1335 00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:54,480 You know, we're out there looking at a timber harvest 1336 00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:59,120 or we see kudzu or cogongrass or whatever invasive species. 1337 00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:03,680 I was on a place the other day that gave me a lot of anxiety 1338 00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:05,880 because I counted so many different invasives. 1339 00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:08,760 You know, it was like everything you can think about 1340 00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:13,760 when we had a Chinese tallow tree, kudzu, 1341 00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:19,320 Japanese climbing fern, giant reed, Chinese privet. 1342 00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:22,020 I mean, all within eyesight, you know, 1343 00:57:22,020 --> 00:57:24,580 and that's the kind of stuff that kind of gives me anxiety 1344 00:57:24,580 --> 00:57:25,820 when I'm out there thinking about 1345 00:57:25,820 --> 00:57:27,540 how are we going to deal with all this stuff? 1346 00:57:27,540 --> 00:57:31,420 But I mean, I think just having a forester looking out 1347 00:57:31,420 --> 00:57:33,620 for your property on your behalf 1348 00:57:33,620 --> 00:57:35,300 and seeing those kinds of things 1349 00:57:35,300 --> 00:57:36,860 and helping you make decisions, 1350 00:57:36,860 --> 00:57:40,820 because there's a lot that goes into, you know, 1351 00:57:40,820 --> 00:57:43,420 financially, you know, it can have a big impact 1352 00:57:43,420 --> 00:57:46,020 on the decisions you make and going forward, 1353 00:57:46,020 --> 00:57:49,040 what are you going to leave, you know, for your family? 1354 00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:50,480 You know, if you're thinking about, 1355 00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:51,680 say somebody that's getting older 1356 00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:53,320 and I hear a lot of times, 1357 00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:55,320 well, you know, I'm not going to see these trees 1358 00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:57,600 if I plant these things back now or whatever. 1359 00:57:57,600 --> 00:57:59,040 But I mean, I think that's important 1360 00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:01,320 to kind of look forward, you know. 1361 00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:04,560 What we do, we're looking at a 25 year, you know, 1362 00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:05,720 plus rotation. 1363 00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:08,480 And so you're planting and managing timber now 1364 00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:11,000 for the next, you know, 25 plus years. 1365 00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:12,720 So I think it's important to have somebody 1366 00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:14,000 that's kind of looking out for you 1367 00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:16,180 and helping you make those decisions 1368 00:58:16,180 --> 00:58:17,660 and, you know, working through. 1369 00:58:17,660 --> 00:58:21,540 But there's a lot involved with forest management 1370 00:58:21,540 --> 00:58:22,380 as a whole. 1371 00:58:22,380 --> 00:58:25,100 You know, there's a lot that I think we do. 1372 00:58:25,100 --> 00:58:27,580 And I don't think that landowners, you know, 1373 00:58:27,580 --> 00:58:29,840 we get like I mentioned earlier about people asking, 1374 00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:31,380 what do we do for timber sales? 1375 00:58:31,380 --> 00:58:34,500 But, you know, there's a lot of people out there 1376 00:58:34,500 --> 00:58:37,140 that, you know, do site prep and planning work. 1377 00:58:37,140 --> 00:58:41,020 But, you know, understanding those prescriptions 1378 00:58:41,020 --> 00:58:42,780 and understanding what the prices are 1379 00:58:42,780 --> 00:58:45,040 and the different application methods and everything. 1380 00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:48,680 It's just good to have somebody that's kind of on your side, 1381 00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,160 you know, helping you walk through all that. 1382 00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:55,760 What are some things, Michael, that people can, 1383 00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:59,800 is there a way that they could help determine 1384 00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:01,200 who would be a good forester? 1385 00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:02,680 Like how can they vet these people 1386 00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:05,560 or maybe some of the questions they might ask? 1387 00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:06,400 Yeah, that's a good question. 1388 00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:09,040 I mean, you know, I would recommend like 1389 00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:11,000 the Association of Consulting Foresters 1390 00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:14,080 has a Find a Forester, you know, page there 1391 00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:15,440 where you can go and you can search 1392 00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:17,880 for kind of your county and state. 1393 00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:20,080 And it'll have a list of people. 1394 00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:23,000 The Forestry Commission also has a page there 1395 00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:25,400 that has a tab that you can go to, 1396 00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:26,960 like Alabama Forestry Commission, 1397 00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:29,640 and you can select consulting forester 1398 00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:32,200 or whatever you're looking for specifically. 1399 00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:37,800 I was asked the same question on a panel one time 1400 00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:39,800 with a forest landowners meeting. 1401 00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:44,800 And, you know, my answer to the question at that time was, 1402 00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:49,480 you know, find somebody that your friend uses 1403 00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:52,560 that you know, like a personal reference. 1404 00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:54,880 I find that that goes a long way 1405 00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:57,200 with establishing that relationship. 1406 00:59:57,200 --> 00:59:58,600 If somebody calls me and they said, 1407 00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:00,600 hey, I was referred to you by this person 1408 01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,640 and they're real happy, then there's that trust, 1409 01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:05,400 you know, all of a sudden, 1410 01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:07,680 without me having to try to prove myself 1411 01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:10,200 or, you know, my understanding of forestry, 1412 01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:12,520 like there's a connection there already. 1413 01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:15,960 And so that already, if you can ask a friend 1414 01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:19,160 at who they're using, find somebody, you know, 1415 01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:22,240 that you know locally and ask them who their forester is 1416 01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:23,320 and if they're happy with them. 1417 01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:27,320 I mean, that seems to me like the best situation possible. 1418 01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:29,800 And if you don't have a connection like that 1419 01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:31,000 and don't know who to ask, 1420 01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:33,480 then you can go to those resources 1421 01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:36,640 and make a few phone calls and, you know, 1422 01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:39,680 tell a forester what your objectives are 1423 01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:43,240 and, you know, see if it seems like it's a good fit. 1424 01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:46,480 I mean, if it definitely doesn't hurt to ask some questions 1425 01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:48,120 and find out, you know, if they're familiar 1426 01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:50,040 with the markets, you know, in your area, 1427 01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:53,160 tell them, hey, I'm interested in turkey or deer management 1428 01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:54,360 or just timber production 1429 01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:56,800 and make sure that's something that they're interested in. 1430 01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,960 There are foresters out there that, you know, 1431 01:00:59,960 --> 01:01:02,880 they're more geared for timber production. 1432 01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:05,480 You know, they're not as interested in helping 1433 01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:07,160 with wildlife management. 1434 01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:09,880 And, you know, that's something I think from, 1435 01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:14,160 just from hunting and enjoying, you know, being out. 1436 01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:17,720 I love to turkey hunt and be in the woods. 1437 01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:20,040 And I just, that's all I've studied, you know, 1438 01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:22,880 when I decided, made the decision to go into forestry. 1439 01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:26,840 I've studied the wildlife management aspect, 1440 01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:28,040 even though I don't have a degree. 1441 01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:30,400 And I feel like that's kind of where I always lean towards. 1442 01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:33,560 And that's just the landowners that I've kind of attracted 1443 01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:34,680 over the past few years, 1444 01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:36,600 just because that's what I like to do. 1445 01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:40,240 But just find somebody that feels like a good fit 1446 01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:42,520 and maybe get a recommendation. 1447 01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:43,520 Yeah. 1448 01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:45,160 I think this is a good opportunity too, 1449 01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:46,720 to just throw out a PSA. 1450 01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:48,160 We've got a lot of younger listeners 1451 01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:50,400 that are thinking about career paths and stuff like that. 1452 01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:53,800 And they're always, you remember this, Michael, 1453 01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:54,840 like back when you were in school, 1454 01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:56,160 there seems to be this divide 1455 01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:58,240 between foresters and wildlife biologists. 1456 01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:00,040 Because at almost every institution, 1457 01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:01,480 they're in the same program, 1458 01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:03,960 you know, right next to each other every day. 1459 01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:07,840 But the further I get from school, 1460 01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:10,520 it's actually the more I work with foresters, not the less. 1461 01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:11,960 Yeah, I agree. 1462 01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:15,120 I mean, it's very important to establish relationships 1463 01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:17,360 across that aisle, so to speak. 1464 01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:18,800 Yeah. 1465 01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:21,400 Most of the landowners, I was just thinking about that, 1466 01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:25,040 most of the landowners that I have worked with in the past, 1467 01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:26,920 they have me there for wildlife. 1468 01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:29,680 I do have a forester degree also, 1469 01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:33,520 but they have a forester on, you know, 1470 01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:35,640 that they work with already also. 1471 01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:40,640 And it's very common that I am working with that forester 1472 01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:44,480 on what the actual final recommendations are 1473 01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:46,320 for management of the property. 1474 01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:47,760 So, I mean, that's super common. 1475 01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:50,440 And I definitely think, you know, 1476 01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:52,040 I obviously have a biased opinion, 1477 01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:55,240 but I think that's important for landowners 1478 01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:57,920 because they're getting good information 1479 01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:00,520 from people that specialize in that, 1480 01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:02,880 and we're looking out for the landowner. 1481 01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:03,720 Yeah, yeah. 1482 01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:06,400 I think we can pretty safely say 1483 01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:10,760 the vast majority of professionals are doing that. 1484 01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:13,000 You know, they're trying to look out for people. 1485 01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:15,840 But, you know, you always hear horror stories. 1486 01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:20,280 It was actually, I was in North Carolina like a week ago, 1487 01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:22,160 I guess, since we're recording this, 1488 01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:26,160 and there was a forester that, you know, 1489 01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:27,960 was speaking to the audience, 1490 01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:31,400 and that was the same line of questioning that came up 1491 01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:32,760 was what we just talked about. 1492 01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:35,040 Like, how do I know who? 1493 01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:38,560 And they had, this particular landowner 1494 01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:40,400 had a bad experience. 1495 01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:45,040 And she was like, what do I need to do? 1496 01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:47,600 How can I vet people beforehand? 1497 01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:49,480 Because once it's done, it's done. 1498 01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:52,000 So I think that, you know, 1499 01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:54,360 that's definitely something that's important. 1500 01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:56,080 I'm glad we covered it. 1501 01:03:56,080 --> 01:04:00,040 Yeah, well, for a lot of smaller landowners, 1502 01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:02,280 you know, if they're clear-cutting timber, 1503 01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:04,360 it may be like a once-in-a-lifetime thing 1504 01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:06,200 or a couple times-in-a-lifetime. 1505 01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:07,480 It's a pretty big decision. 1506 01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:10,400 I think that, you know, a lot of people don't take lightly, 1507 01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:12,560 and they want to make sure they're getting 1508 01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:13,840 as much as they can for it 1509 01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:16,400 and make sure somebody's looking after them. 1510 01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:17,440 Sure. 1511 01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:19,680 It certainly could transform your property 1512 01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:21,120 for the rest of your life. 1513 01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:21,960 Yeah. 1514 01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:25,680 And potentially for multiple ancestors' lives. 1515 01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:26,520 Yeah. 1516 01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:28,440 Yeah. 1517 01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:30,280 Well, good. 1518 01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:33,360 I felt like that was a pretty strong episode. 1519 01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:35,880 I think a lot of our listeners will appreciate that. 1520 01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:37,600 Yeah, definitely really direct. 1521 01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:40,200 And hopefully for everybody out there listening, 1522 01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:44,120 you know, we're trying to address topics 1523 01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:44,960 that you bring to us. 1524 01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:47,720 This is another one that comes up really commonly. 1525 01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:51,960 Will and I have some ideas for doing some other topic areas 1526 01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:53,600 that have come from listener feedback 1527 01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:56,160 and just our own thoughts about it. 1528 01:04:56,160 --> 01:05:00,400 But, you know, we are trying to go down this vein 1529 01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:04,600 to talk about some practical things, 1530 01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:06,280 like how do I get this done? 1531 01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:07,960 Because it seems like that's coming up a lot. 1532 01:05:07,960 --> 01:05:10,320 People are getting in that headspace 1533 01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:11,760 that they have a pretty good idea. 1534 01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:15,160 Okay, I've got these things to accomplish, 1535 01:05:15,160 --> 01:05:18,080 but now they're wondering, how do we start? 1536 01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:19,240 The logistics of it. 1537 01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:20,080 Yeah. 1538 01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:21,280 The implementation. 1539 01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:22,920 Right, the practical part. 1540 01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:26,120 So thanks, Michael, for coming on. 1541 01:05:26,120 --> 01:05:27,920 That was really great. Yeah, thank you. 1542 01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:30,160 And thanks everybody out there for listening. 1543 01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:31,360 We really appreciate it. 1544 01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:33,320 We appreciate all the feedback. 1545 01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:35,320 Will, you brought up the other day, 1546 01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:36,680 well, maybe yesterday, 1547 01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:38,880 we haven't told anybody in a while, 1548 01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:41,080 but if you haven't had a chance, 1549 01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:43,000 please go and leave us a rating. 1550 01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:45,240 Helps the algorithm. 1551 01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:46,440 It's good that you asked for that 1552 01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:47,560 coming off of this episode 1553 01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:49,560 and not one with just me and you 1554 01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:52,240 talking about BS for 30 minutes 1555 01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:54,200 before we get into anything with substance. 1556 01:05:54,200 --> 01:05:56,120 Well, you know, I've gotten a few comments 1557 01:05:56,120 --> 01:05:57,280 saying people like that, 1558 01:05:57,280 --> 01:05:59,960 but I've also gotten some that people are like, 1559 01:05:59,960 --> 01:06:01,280 y'all need to get to the point. 1560 01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:04,200 They're both right. 1561 01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:06,200 Yep, yep, they are. 1562 01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:08,920 But yeah, we really appreciate it. 1563 01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:10,320 I think that was great. 1564 01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:13,000 And thanks everybody out there for listening. 1565 01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:18,320 Wild Turkey Science is part of 1566 01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:21,280 the Natural Resources University podcast network 1567 01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:23,480 and is made possible by Turkeys for Tomorrow, 1568 01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:26,520 a grassroots organization dedicated to the wild turkey. 1569 01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:28,120 To learn more about TFT, 1570 01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:30,360 check out turkeysfortomorrow.org. 1571 01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:32,960 Turkeys for Tomorrow. 1572 01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:34,960 you 1573 01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:37,020 you