William Curb: Welcome to Hacking Your ADHD. I'm your host, William Curb, and I have ADHD. On this podcast, I dig into the tools, tactics, and best practices to help you work with your ADHD brain.
Hey team, today I'm talking with Jenna Free, a master's level Canadian certified counselor and ADHD coach who focuses on poly-vagal theory, which is to say, she helps people understand their nervous system. She works specifically with neurodivergent adults to move them out of the fight, flight, or freeze responses that make ADHD symptoms feel 10 times heavier than they need to be. In our conversation today, we're moving past the usual tips and tricks to look at the biological hardware of the ADHD brain, and more specifically on nervous system regulation.
We discuss the mechanics of dysregulation, why we often use anxiety as a secondary motor, and how to identify when our bodies have been stuck in survival mode for so long that we've forgotten what calm actually feels like. If you'd like to follow along on the show notes page, you can find that at hackingyouradhd.com/292. Alright, keep on listening to find out how to tell the difference between a dirty laundry pile and a moral failing. I thought that was actually a great place for us to kind of like start with what is regulation, because that's a lot of times people talk in these terms and they're just like, oh yeah, everybody knows what this is.
Jenna Free: Yes, absolutely. And the problem with the word regulation is that people do assume they know what it is, but they don't always. So to be regulated means your nervous system is in a place of safety.
And that's typically the reality for us. So if we're all sitting in our house, a nervous system that is kind of in its rightful place would be relaxed, nothing's triggered. I don't have my body preparing to fight. I don't feel in danger.
I don't feel stressed and I'm just calm. So that's what regulation means. But when we're dysregulated, that is kind of where it's a little bit easier to explain because it's a bit more specific of my body is primed to fight, flight, freeze or fawn in order to survive. So I'm prepped to in my primal state, what I think there's a bear in the bush, right? The chemicals get pumped, the blood flow moves from the brain to the limb.
So you're ready to run, ready to fight so that the bear doesn't get you. But the biggest issue is most of us are not in imminent life threatening danger, but our system is still stuck in a dysregulated state. And the reason we're talking about it here with ADHD is that when we're in that state, it is going to make our ADHD symptoms much worse. Yeah.
William Curb: And for a lot of people, they don't even, they might not realize they're in that state because they've been in it for such a long time.
Jenna Free: Exactly. It just becomes our normal and we think, oh, isn't everyone dysregulated? That's a question I get a lot. And yes, very much so. That could be true. Not everybody who's dysregulated has ADHD, but I have experience that every ADHD year is dysregulated. But when we don't understand that, we just will often see that experience as, oh, that's just my ADHD. And that's where we can kind of get stuck too. Yeah.
William Curb: Because I remember when I was first diagnosed with ADHD, someone, the psychologist was asked me, he's like, well, do you think you have ADHD? And I was like, I just think this is how my brain works. I don't know any different. And so I can so much see with someone being in a dysregulated state and not remembering what it doesn't feel like.
Jenna Free: Exactly. And when I do talk about regulation with people, they'll often come back, say a week later and go, oh, so now that I know what it is and what to look out for, I'm dysregulated 24 seven. Yes, it probably is just your basic state that you function from. And that can be, you know, really normalized in our body. So we're not noticing the signs as much, we're not aware of it. And of course, if we're not aware of it, there's nothing we can do about it.
William Curb: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a lot of where you see the like, zero one to 100 mentality for ADHD coming through is because you're already dysregulated. And so adding something else on top just makes it go crazy wild.
Jenna Free: Absolutely. Yes. When you put that ADHD brain, right, it's already different. We already have our struggles and our quirks. And you put that into a state of fight or flight. Yeah, it's just like, sends it through the roof. And I do think that's why, you know, many people will see ADHD as a disability. But I think what they're actually seeing is the dysregulation that comes with it, not the brain difference itself.
William Curb: Yeah, absolutely. And then also like just how bad we are sometimes with our like, own proprioception or inter-reception.
Jenna Free: Absolutely. Because if you know, if you've been feeling that your whole life, it's smart for your body to kind of stamp that out and numb those feelings. Because if it's uncomfortable, but it's chronic, the body just goes, Oh, well, this just must be how we function.
It must not be dangerous or must be nothing to deal with here because we've been alive for 30, 35 years. And we felt this way. So let's just turn those dials down. And this is where we are less tuned into kind of how we feel inside our bodies.
William Curb: So what's kind of a first steps that someone might want to take to like look into? I mean, we can assume most people listening are probably in a dysregulated state, but to help them along to be like, how would they kind of notice that in themselves? Cool.
Jenna Free: So the first step is that awareness and we can start in the body. So there's kind of three different ways we can see it in our body, we can see it in our thinking, and we can see it in our behavior. But in our body, it is going to feel like any physical symptoms of anxiety. So your heart racing, stomach and knots, tense muscles, rushing, impatience, a lot of mental signs as well, rumination, anxiety itself, overwhelm, negative self-talk, all of those things is our system trying to keep us safe. So if we're feeling all of that, that means our system is not feeling safe. Therefore, we're dysregulated.
So that is the first step is can I start bringing those signals back up to the surface? Because we've been ignoring them not on purpose for a very long time. And so that's slightly counterintuitive. I don't want to feel uncomfortable, but I do need to start being aware of these feelings in order to do anything about it.
So the first order of business is just start naming it. So when your heart is racing, you're sitting there all tense, realizing you're typing really fast, oh, I'm dysregulated. I'm kind of giving it that name and it starts to kind of give you a clearer picture of your own behavior and your own dysregulation, I guess. Yeah.
William Curb: And it's funny too with ADHD how we can sometimes, yeah, very much the physical symptoms of like, oh, yeah, I'm like, typing, doing all this. And it's also kind of amazing how with some of our bottom-up regulation where we're like, oh, yeah, I physically get myself to relax. It like mentally gets there really quickly too. So cool.
Jenna Free: And it's all connected, right? So then the second piece to be aware of is our thinking and our beliefs. So those are going to often be fueled by fear, right? So really anxious thoughts, worrisome thoughts, regret, trying to, you know, hypervigilant thinking, like, did I do that good enough?
Can we get second perfectionism? A lot of shoulds. I should have done this.
I should have done that. All of that is your brain feeling like I'm unsafe and I need to think really hard and kind of scan and be alert for threat. So that is also a sign that we're dysregulated in the way we think, which we don't talk about as much in regulation.
We always talk about the body. But my goodness, that dysregulated nervous system has developed, you know, thinking patterns and belief systems that are rooted in the assumption that I'm always in danger and I need to be on the lookout. So that's another thing we can start identifying as dysregulation as well.
William Curb: Yeah, absolutely. Because I know, well, because we have so many systems that we've developed that like get us through the day. I have joked for a long time that I often don't have issues with being late with my ADHD because my anxiety takes care of it, which is not a healthy coping mechanism. But one that exists, I actually was funny, like a year ago, I had some changes to my medication. And then it like just side effect was like reduced anxiety. And I was like being getting late to everything. And I was like, Oh, no.
Jenna Free: Absolutely. But what's so tricky about that is we see that as it works, right? Well, the anxiety works because right, you just took that away. And you say, now I have more problems. So then we kind of reinforce that belief again, these beliefs that are dysregulating, that, Oh, I need the anxiety in order to get there on time, therefore, I'm going to keep it.
Therefore, you're not going to work on it. Like even subconsciously, your brain is super smart. If it thinks negative self talk is keeping you motivated. If it thinks when you feel guilt and shame, it keeps you in line, there's no way you're going to let go of that because it's we even subconsciously think it's helpful. So even those beliefs are quite dysregulating. If we think, well, I have to be anxious in order to get moving, then that's where we'll stay. And I understand that momentarily, it's like, but it's true.
Look, take the anxiety away. And I'm late all the time. But I will say just as a glimmer for everybody, where they're questioning that is a so much changes when you're regulated that we don't really know what we're capable of. So what I have found is people who get more and more regulated, less and less out of fight or flight, they will be on time more regularly, it's never perfect. But we're not using that anxiety and intensity to be on time, we're just a little bit more mindful, got our executive function is gone up, we have less symptoms, less avoidance, things like that. So we are able to get places on time. But I know it doesn't feel like it right now.
William Curb: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Because I was like, well, fortunately, I have this like, a thorough of tools available to me that I know about from running the podcast. So I'm going to use those. And it was, yeah, it's like, oh, I can stay more focused on what I'm doing, because I'm not like looking over the clock every few minutes to be sure that I'm not, you know, zoning out and to have a timeline, this is killing me or something. And yeah, I think it's so true that a lot of people, it like you build up these beliefs where you're like, not only is this a leaf that is, but it's 100% true. And if I change it, my life will fall apart.
Jenna Free: Yeah, it's so hard. It's so hard. Because a lot of times we got to realize is like, we probably don't know if it's the chicken or the egg. Like, do I believe I can only function this way because it's true? Or do I believe I can only function this way because it's the only way I've ever functioned.
So I have a lot of evidence that it works because what if a whole nother way could work? And that's what I find is, ADHD is really are resistant to, and this is part of the work is working through that resistance to the idea that like, oh, if I'm calm, if I'm not in panic, I'll still be motivated to take action. I'll still be motivated to do life. I'll still move forward. But I have found we're actually so much more productive and motivated when we're not just using panic to kind of get us out of harm's way. Yeah.
William Curb: And the all or nothing thinking that often comes with it because it's so funny how often I've talked with my therapist and I'll be like saying something and I'll be like, that's not true. But that solves all my problems if that's not true.
Jenna Free: Yeah, exactly. I love that.
William Curb: Because it's so often where we go, oh, this has to be this way. And then, you know, it's like, I have to do it this way. And it's really hard to get away from that without actually examining it.
Jenna Free: Yes, it is very challenging. But something that can help, I think, encourage us to play with our thinking and beliefs when it just feels like, but it's just true. It's just how it is. I have to suck it up is the idea, which this might be slightly controversial or so it might have a little bit of pushback, but the idea that the belief creates what is not in a magical way. But if I believe, hey, I can figure this out in a way where I'm cool, calm and collected, then you will do the work to figure it out to do it in a way where you're cool, calm and collected. If you believe I have to be anxious, I have to have urgency, and I can only do things at the last minute, you will, because you will not look for any other way.
Because your brain's smart. If it does not believe change is possible, it won't even try. And that's what I have really found. And that is where I started with this work was my own belief of like, there's got to be another way because I cannot, I just simply cannot function this way in this like intense crash avoidant and then doing things at the last minute, always feeling in a panic, always anxious, always, you know, just feeling bad about not doing what I should be doing. And so it started with this belief of like, this cannot be the only way. How do I find a path forward with the brain I have?
We're not erasing ADHD by any means, but how do I find a better way to live my life that isn't this intense and like a roller coaster? And so opening that and just like discovering in that curiosity of going, Hey, maybe that's possible is what led me to this work. So it is pretty cool. It's like the belief can come before the evidence, but that can feel worrisome for people when they have evidence of the contrary.
William Curb: Yeah, because we have this lifetime built up of like, Oh, this is how things are. And it's, it's funny how our brain does not want to accept that there could be something different, especially when we know, like we're like, yeah, other people do it differently. But, but I'm the exception. I'm special in a bad way.
Jenna Free: Yeah, totally. Yes. And just to tell, you know, to give that glimmer is that I've worked with over a thousand ADHD years with this ADHD regulation approach. And so many of them, everyone I've communicated with has had huge drastic changes. So not to say like, well, yeah, that's neurotypical people. Yeah, they can change, but not me because I have ADHD. So I can't change the way I'm thinking. I have not seen that to be the case.
William Curb: Yeah, it was so when I was reading through the book, one of the lines that like really hit me hard was just this like that if you are operating out of fear and anxiety, and you finish something, you just feel relief, not accomplishment. I was like, yeah, oh, yeah.
Jenna Free: And that's another reason why those motivators of like, oh, let me just get this over with this is so stressful. I'm just trying to keep my head above water. So when it's finished, all I think is like, oh, thank God, that's done. Oh, what a dissatisfying way to live because we're not ever connecting to that positive thing of like, wow, look what I achieved. That was such a journey. That was a process.
I was enjoyed the process and I get the fruit of that labor. We really are stuck in this energy of just trying to get things over with even things we're pursuing, even like the good things.
William Curb: Yeah, it's amazing how many, I think that's one of the things that often separates the like perceived idea of what ADHD is versus reality is that it's not just the productivity side of things that we're struggling with. It's all the hobbies and enjoyable parts where like, it's just like a checklist sometimes to be like, okay, yeah, I'm doing this thing I enjoy, but it's got to do it.
Jenna Free: Yes. And that's why I love about regulation work really when it boils down to it is yes, we will be more productive. We will be less avoidant. You will have less symptoms.
You will have increased executive functioning. So just in the like, living your life and doing life, it's easier. But the second piece of like, it also makes life more enjoyable, because then you're not stuck in this state of like, oh my God, I'm so overwhelmed.
They're just trying to get everything over with your more present. You're able to truly enjoy the time spent on hobbies. They don't feel like something on a to-do list. And really, what is the point of all the doing and getting things over with if we're miserable in the process? So that's what I really love about regulation work is the access to enjoying life and being more present in the process of daily life.
William Curb: So I want to get into what people can do to start regulating themselves. But I have made a note to myself to make sure that we hit to talk about what fawning is as well, because I just saw that. I was like, I've talked about this before, but I know it's some, for some people, it's such a new term. Yeah, totally.
Jenna Free: So when we're in fight or flight, it's really fight, flight, freeze, fawn. Fight or flight is just kind of the short term. So fight is that irritability, impatience, you know, when we're snappy and intense.
Flight is avoidance, right? We're very, we can really get caught up in flight a lot of times, freeze, paralysis, and then fawn would be people pleasing. But it's not people pleasing.
And I'm just talking with one of my groups today about like, we need a new word for that. Because it's not about pleasing people at all. It's about let me keep you regulated and happy so that I can be regulated. Because when you're dysregulated, that bothers me. And so that can look like having a hard time saying no to anybody for anything. So you're always saying yes, even if later you resent it, you're like, why did they do that? But it's just like so dysregulating to disappoint people. So dysregulating to contemplate someone not liking us. But that is so primal, right?
Because historically, we were tribal beings that yes, if the group didn't like you, you would get kicked out. And that's life threatening. But in modern life, not everyone needs to love us or like us or be happy with us in order for us to be safe. So it's really starting to challenge that tendency that we can have, but everyone's needs and everyone's happiness above our own, just so we feel. And it's really about feeling more comfortable in your nervous system, feeling safer. Yeah.
William Curb: And from what I understand, it's very commonly associated with like as a trauma response.
Jenna Free: Absolutely. Yeah, fight, flight, freeze, fawn, all trauma response. But I like to just point out because I never identified as experiencing any like capital T trauma. There's not one thing I could point to and go, oh, yeah, this was so horrible. That's what put me in fight or flight.
But for neurodivergent people, I really think it's just this lifelong, I call it just like poke poke of like, oh, you're late. Oh, you did that weird. Oh, you said a weird thing.
Oh, yeah. And just these subtle T's where it's like, I don't quite fit. I think enough of those over time will put our system in fight or flight as well. So if someone listening is like, well, I don't have an experience trauma. So I much must not be in fight or flight. I think even if you don't identify with that, you probably are.
William Curb: Yeah, it's a we very much have a culture of like, I don't want to say idealizing the capital T trauma, but we do put the more importance on it. Yeah. Whereas like with like the daily like more CPTSD kind of like, oh, yeah, this is just ongoing forever. Or like, well, that's just how life is. And it's like, that's the problem too. That and I always want to emphasize when I'm talking with people like trauma is not a competition. Even if you have like something minor, it can still affect you in big ways. Totally.
Jenna Free: And that's why like even with the ADHD regulation method and this work, you don't really need to know the why you don't need to know like what triggered all this, we don't need to process it, of course, do that if you have something go to therapy and get support, you deserve it. But you can absolutely do regulation work just with the knowledge I know I'm a fighter flight who what why when they're where slightly irrelevant. Let's work on getting out of it.
William Curb: So with that in mind, let's also kind of go into this like what we yeah, what can we do to kind of start working on this ability to be more regulated?
Jenna Free: There's three layers. Obviously, there's a lot to them, but I can give like a quick insight into each. So the first layer is what we talked about, but the body, I need to start getting aware when I'm dysregulated in very specific ways. So if I notice my stomachs and knots and I'm feeling anxious, I'm dysregulated. We need to start being aware of when we're having those physical feelings and calling it what it is. It's always awareness is the first step. Second step is interruption. So when you notice your shoulders are by your ears, your tense, you're typing really fast, you're in a rush, or maybe you're rushing to your car to go to an appointment because you're late, doesn't matter the reason. But if I'm in that physical state, I want to interrupt it.
So you're barreling down the cycle of being a fighter flight and I want to interrupt it. So physically, that means taking a breath, relax your shoulders, slow down, whether that be like I'm going to type at a reasonable pace, I'm going to walk into my car instead of run and see if you can bring your mind back to the present. So maybe you're thinking about, oh my gosh, when I get to that appointment, they're going to be mad because I'm late, but right now I'm just walking in my car. Can I just return to where I am and relax my shoulders? Because the reason that's effective is because when we're tense, when we are rushing, when we are ruminating, when all of that dysregulation is going on, we are reinforcing to our body, yes, there is a bear chasing us. Yes, you are in danger, so keep it up. So what the interruption does is go, no, look, when we sew down and relax our shoulders and take a deep breath, nothing ate us. Isn't that cool?
Maybe we're safe. And obviously, that does not solve everything the first time you do it. But just like working out, it's those reps interrupting again and again and again and again and showing my system kind of like, hey, nervous system, look around, we are safe because we can't talk to it. So the only thing we can do is communicate through acting as if we're safe.
William Curb: Yeah, I do remember one time I was driving my daughter to preschool even. And we were late and I was driving a little fast and partway through, it was just like, if I got in an accident and I had to explain to someone that the reason that someone got hurt or whatever happened was that I was late to preschool, I don't think I could do that. I'd have to come up with a line. I don't want to do that.
Jenna Free: Yeah, no, that's a great observation. It's like, it's never logical, right? Because it's usually like, oh, if I'm late to an appointment, so I'm going to rush and be sitting like this in traffic all tense and like, come on, come on, come on. It's not going to get me there any faster. Traffic is traffic.
Me being in pain all the way there is not going to make the doctor less annoyed or whatever it is. So it's really cool to start challenging that. But when we challenge that physical piece, this is when kind of thoughts and beliefs will come up. So that's the second layer of like, but I have to rush. I have so much work to do or whatever those beliefs are that we were just talking about, how I believe I have to be in a panic in order to get anything done.
Well, when you challenge that by slowing down, it's really going to bring that belief up to the surface. And then we want to work on that of, oh, what are, what are my three? thinking, what are my beliefs that are kind of my story or my narrative that keep me in this disregulated state? And you might explore and find a lot in there. Our minds are very complex and it's a bit of a ball of yarn that we need to untangle. But if you can have a curious mindset about it, like, oh, isn't that interesting that I believe that if I'm compassionate to myself, I'm going to become lazy because I hear that a lot. I once did a poll of like, do you think self-compassion is a cop out?
And it was like 85% of 80 each year said yes. Like, okay, so we have a big belief that being kind to myself, you know, is a cop out or I don't deserve to be kind to myself or I need to be mean to myself to keep me going. Oh my gosh, we need to, and then we need to do the regulation work with that thinking because again, if you believe that, it's nothing we can change because your system's going to really hold on to that.
William Curb: Yeah. And I think that's another case too often where it's the internalized I'm special because if you ask someone, like, well, how would you treat a friend? They're like, oh, absolutely. I would not treat them like that. And they're like, but I know what's going on in here. And so I cannot do that.
Jenna Free: Yeah, totally. Yes. No, that's a really good insight. We are just like everybody else. So however you would treat or motivate other people, look, even your kids, my kids are not motivated when I go, come on. And if they are, they're only motivated to like just get out of harm's way, which is the definition of, you know, negative motivators is like, oh, mom's mad that I haven't cleaned this up. So I'll clean this up, but they will never do anything beyond that. And they will never learn kind of that motivation when I'm not like on their asses.
So same for ourselves. If you only move or you're only motivated by kind of giving yourself that little punishment or slap on the hand, you're only ever going to just get out of harm's way. Meaning, oh my gosh, that paper is due tomorrow. I'll quickly get it done, but then I collapse and then I'm avoidant again until I'm in danger or have a deadline again. So that negative self-talk, it only works in spurts. Yeah.
William Curb: And often kind of detrimentally in the long run.
Jenna Free: Oh God, yes. It's going to keep us dysregulated, which keeps us, you know, having more ADHD symptoms is going to put us in a freeze, overwhelm, all of that.
William Curb: And yeah, easy to spiral into from like motivation into, oh, yeah, I just can't do anything.
Jenna Free: Yes, which is like flips us over into like why bother, why even try. Which, which act, sorry, go ahead. No, go for it. Which actually leads us into that perfect third layer of the behavior. So that's all or nothing thinking, which makes us act in kind of all or nothing ways. So for example, that negative self-talk, it's like, oh, I'm either pushing myself and going hard or why bother? And so for, for actions we take, it might be either clean the whole house perfectly or I'm not even going to try. I'm either going to declutter every single room and every single closet and take everything out and start from scratch, or I'm not even going to like clear this one table.
I'm either going to work, do that whole work project in one sitting, or I'm not even going to do 10 minutes. And that thinking is actually a sign of dysregulation because a brain in fight or flight does not perceive nuance on purpose. So it wants to classify things, good, bad, dangerous, safe, right?
So when we're in that state, so if everyone notices, yeah, I'm an all or nothing thinker, instead of thinking, oh, that's just ADHD, we want to start going, ew, that's a brain that feels unsafe and wants that binary, like simple thinking. Do it perfectly or don't bother. There's no in between. But of course we have access to all of the stages in between. Our brain isn't just, just isn't tuned into that when we're dysregulated.
William Curb: And I'm just, just imagining the people that are having the same thought to working on regulation where they're just going, yeah, but I can't do all of that. And so I'm not going to.
Jenna Free: Exactly. Yeah. If you give me the choice and I agree, if you give me the choice, all or nothing, I'm choosing nothing. So it really does get, keep us stuck.
William Curb: Yeah. I always, I always loved the idea of go big or go home and I'm like, sounds great. Bye.
Jenna Free: I'm out of here. That's funny.
William Curb: And I think that is such a good thing for us to like really examine because too often all or nothing thinking is once we actually go like, well, I can have to clean the house or clean nothing at all. And it's like, and then if someone's just like, so is that true? And you go, well, no, but dang it.
Jenna Free: Totally. And that's where like dysregulation has us thinking that obviously we can do the in between, right? We can chip away. We can cut corners, like challenge of perfectionism. We can prioritize action.
These are all the different tools of thinking flexibly. We can do that. We have the capacity, but it is more comfortable when we're dysregulated to stay with that black and white thinking that all or nothing thinking because that is where kind of we're hunkered down in that dysregulated space. So the things that kind of align with dysregulation will be easier, but that does not mean it's impossible.
So just because your brain goes to, oh, I don't have time to clean the whole house. Okay, I'm going to go watch, go scroll then. It's like, oh, wait, oh, look at that. My brain did the all or nothing thing. So it's really being aware of it because the brain's going to do it, but we can be aware of it or conscious mind. The part of us that's not in fight or flight, which is that conscious human piece can go, oh, I see what's happening here. Okay, let me challenge that.
What would be something in between? Well, you know, my table's pretty clutter. I could at least go put those few books away.
That's enough. But you've just challenged your starting to get evidence of like, hey, there's a whole world in between all and nothing that I could participate in. I just haven't been doing it for a while. So I kind of forget it's even there.
William Curb: That narrative version, I saw one of the presentations was on like decluttering and one of their first things they're like, first thing you should do is pick up all the trash around your house. And like, so that's kind of something that I've been working on more recently. And it's been like, yeah, I don't have to clean everything, but let's just pick up the trash and that feels so nice.
Jenna Free: Yes, I love that. And that's what's so cool about, you know, that's a very great way to chip away. Are you just like, let me work on it in little layers that are more manageable. But that's kind of how we want to do all of life is like one little step at a time. I don't have to do everything. I don't need to start contemplating so much that I get overwhelmed and then fall into doing nothing. And then this is my sound for regulation is do do do do. So it's like, how can I just like, oh, do do do pick up some of the garbage?
Okay, that was good. Instead of, oh my God, there's so much to do. Or it's this intensity that we want to really soften because we don't need it. But again, these beliefs are in deep of, oh, each year's function best in a crisis. I work best, best under pressure.
That is not true. It feels that way because when we're in fight or flight, the alternative to, you know, being under pressure is crashing. So yes, when you're in kind of crisis mode, panic mode, that does feel better than when you're crashed out and like stuck on the couch or can't move. But it doesn't mean you're thriving.
William Curb: And it's where maybe when I tell people, like when we're going to hyper focus, we're borrowing from our future selves. And that feels very true here too. Like when we're in a crisis, we can handle a lot of stuff, but it's future resources that we are just taking from. And when we get to the future, we don't have them anymore.
Jenna Free: That's such a good way to put it. Yes, I've never heard it put that way. But that's exactly right. Because is that frantic crash cycle that we get in when we're dysregulated? Like you said, I'm in crisis. My system is exhausted.
I'm doing so much. And then that energy does run out because you've used it from the future. And you reach that feature and you are crashed. But a difficult thing that happens in our brains, the dots we connect is we say, well, look, good thing I did so much because I would have crashed anyway.
Oh, the frantic intensity is creating the crash. I promise you, but we don't believe that. So we think, well, I have energy now, so I better do everything possible. Like, but it's creating the loop and we get stuck in that cycle. Yeah.
William Curb: It's so often people are like, yeah, I just got to ride that wave of motivation and just do everything in the day and then on crash the next day. And that's why it was good. I did it.
Jenna Free: Yes. We really got to be aware of like, oh, I think I might have been thinking about it wrong and going, oh, no, the thread is tied together. Right. It's like one plus one equals two.
It's not that the two would have always been there. Oh, yes. But when I get into that intense state creates the crash. And once we see that, I think it's much, much easier to start challenging that dysregulated state because we realize, oh, this could all soften.
Right. If I'm going to from a plus 10 to a minus 10, what if I only get up to a plus eight? Wow, the crash is less and over time kind of get those barriers more and more towards the center. And then you have a more gentle, regulated, more sustainable way of living.
William Curb: Yeah, absolutely. And so I feel like it feels like really the pillar here that people kind of need to look at is like awareness, but then also just knowing how to challenge their beliefs.
Jenna Free: Yeah, absolutely. So some things you can notice obviously, thinking is hard, right? So intangible. It's like physical is a bit easier. Oh, slow down. Take a deep breath. That's a bit easier to do. Even the behavior is a bit easier to do. Do it all, do nothing.
Oh, do a little bit, right? We can see it. It's a little bit more tangible. Thoughts and beliefs is so abstract.
So it's tough. So I try to, you know, make it as tangible as possible. So one thing we can observe is am I in potential or reality?
When we are in potential, we are dysregulated and our thinking is dysregulated. And what that sounds like is should. So I should do this. I should have done that. All of that is going to be in potential. Negative self-talk, perfectionism, ideals. Let me think first.
William Curb: That's an ad-hation podcast. So it works out. Yeah. Yeah.
Jenna Free: So we are written right in. But that is that place. If we can kind of sum it up is like, it's something that we think it, but you can't physically, you know, you can't touch it. You can't feel it. You can't prove it. I should have done that yesterday.
There's nothing you can point to, to prove that. It's just a thought. And so that's potential. The second place we live is in reality.
What is physically currently happening and true in the moment? So you might be thinking, oh, I really should have done the laundry yesterday. I should have done it. I don't have time today.
I should have done it yesterday. The reality is the laundry is dirty. It's simple. The reality is always simple. Potential is always overwhelming, complex, riddled with judgments. That's the word I was looking for earlier. Judgments, thoughts that keep us dysregulated. And the reason it's dysregulating is because it fights with reality. So when I think I should have done the laundry yesterday, well, the reality is I didn't, but I should have done it.
Okay, but you didn't. It's like what we want to be aware of that. And then the interruption there is, can I come back to the reality? So the line I love is the reality is, so for this example, the reality is the laundry is dirty. Now what?
I could put it in the wash. It's like it returns us down to this calm, present moment where we can do something about it. Um, and sometimes that now what is going to be, I got to go to work.
So I'm going to accept that the clothes are dirty, right? It's not always about productivity and getting things done. But it's just inviting the brain to get out of the potential, the judgments, the hyper vigilance, the Kutushida, what is, I'm safe to just be here with what is and carry on from there. So that is a, that is kind of a little bit more tangible way to sort challenging our thinking.
William Curb: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's, uh, it can also be really helpful to like externalize some of the thinking. Cause when I just in my head, it is very easy to justify anything I'm thinking. So like, yeah, step, I'm going from step A to B to C. And then here I'm at F and that makes total sense. And I'm like, whoa, when I'm writing, like, whoa, uh, you skipped some pieces there.
Jenna Free: Totally. Yes. So that's why I really love like the reality is now what? Cause it kind of says here, right? Here's where I am ready to make some more tangible. I can see, okay, I, you know, I've been feeling so guilty and beating myself up because I haven't started that work presentation. The reality is I haven't started the work presentation. Like you said, ABC, that kind of brings me to A, like, okay, here we are.
Now what's B. Oh, start the presentation, open up a presentation document. Like I haven't even begun. Um, and so really softens all the thinking, reduces the overwhelm. And when we stop fighting with reality, we are telling our body, Hey, you're safe to just be here. The current reality is say, look, we can just deal with what's in front of us. We don't need to be hyper vigilant, trying to like crack the code to keep ourselves alive for good. Um, and so that's why the physical piece tells the system we're safe, a mental piece tells the system we're safe. And then for that physical piece of practicing flexible thinking instead of all or nothing, again, it says, Hey, we're safe. We can perceive the nuance. We can do it in all sorts of ways. And all of that is, is perfectly acceptable.
William Curb: So I did want to come back to one thing with the physical piece too. Um, which is, so we're using that to help examine, to see where we're at. And sometimes we hurt ourselves and we're just like, physically, we're just like, Oh yeah, I've, you know, I was, I slept wrong and now I back hurts. And do we need to tease that out from the dysregulation piece?
Or can we, how do we like tell the difference between like, Oh, this is just regular pain that I'm in because I stepped on a nail versus, you know, my foot's cramping up. Totally.
Jenna Free: Yeah. So we want to kind of part of that is acceptance. Right. It's like, Oh, the acceptance of what is, I hurt my back. Okay. Well, that is different than, you know, our heart being racing or shoulders being tense. So it's really, this is why we need that specific awareness of like, what does it feel like to be dysregulated? It's not just being uncomfortable because if we say, Oh, whenever I'm uncomfortable, that means I'm dysregulated.
Well, no, maybe you kinked your neck and now you're uncomfortable because of that. Like you say. So this is why we want to get very explicit about what exactly does right dysregulation feel like. And for me, everyone's a bit different. So for me, it's definitely stomach and knots and kind of chest feeling heavy.
When I feel anxious or dysregulated, that's the biggest signs for me. Um, and then rushing mostly mentally, like trying to get tasks over with and going, Oh my God, I'm so uncomfortable. Why is this so uncomfortable? Oh, I'm, you know, I'm not breathing deep enough. My stomach's in knots and I'm rushing to try to get this email written. Okay. Slow down.
And then always even me just doing that as like a demonstration that I'm already felt a little bit calmer versus when I'm talking fast. So it really is quite powerful that physical change. Um, but that's going to come with the realities of having a human body. That's all not always comfortable in and of itself.
William Curb: Yeah. And so I can, yeah, I can see the dysregulation sometimes coming with like, well, I associate this with being in really, you know, stressed out. That must mean I am stressed out.
Jenna Free: Yeah, totally. So we do want to notice the difference. Um, but even when we're, say we're like, Oh wow, I hurt my back. That could be dysregulating, right? It's like, Oh, I'm uncomfortable and I'm in pain and now I'm, my shoulders are tense and I'm holding my breath because of the pain. So it's not going to hurt to challenge that dysregulation either way. Yeah.
William Curb: Cause I was like, it feels like I should tease this out, but also at the same time, probably going to still be, you know, like we, we expect someone that's, you know, like physically in pain to be, you know, a little bit more short temperate or something and understandably so.
Jenna Free: Yeah, absolutely. And, um, I think that kind of brings a good point of no matter the external circumstances, at least in the work I do is we want to always believe though, I could make this better. So even if, right? Cause it might be like, well, of course I'm dysregulated.
I'm having a really stressful week at work. Cause like that's slightly irrelevant. You're not getting chased by a bear. You're not about to die.
So there's no need to be in fight or flight. We can still do regulation work. You know, if I hurt my back, we can still do regulation work, you know, if you have chronic pain or some sort of chronic illness, you can still do regulation work if you are under a very high pressure job and you're in a really peak busy time. We don't want to, um, justify our dysregulation just because of stressors or other things that yes, make it harder, but do not make it inevitable or required to be in fight or flight. Cause the only things that require us to be in fight or flight is imminent, meaning like right the second life threatening danger. So literal bear chasing you, you know, person in your house, robbing you like, yes, then you do want to be in fight or flight. That's why moms can pick cars off of babies when they're in trouble. Like we want to get into fight or flight in some scenarios, but knock on wood.
Those are hopefully very, very, very rare, if ever happening. So we just want to be careful about like stress equals must be in fight or flight cause that can keep us stuck. Yeah.
William Curb: Cause we're going to have stress. Almost always. Most days. Um, and it's not even a bad thing to have stress. Like I had a friend that, uh, had very little anxiety about things and I was like, oh, that sounds great. And he's like, yeah, try getting something done with zero anxiety about it. I'm like, oh, yeah, I could see that being less than ideal.
Jenna Free: Yes. I want to challenge that a little bit though, because of his belief is I have to be anxious to be motivated. That could be sex. It could be dysregulated, but in a more of a disconnected, um, like removed himself avoidance way. Cause I have found when you're truly regulated, you're neither.
You're not just detached and unmotivated, but you're also not anxious and frantic. You're kind of in that sweet spot in the middle of, yeah, I want to do my laundry cause I want clean clothes. I want to do my work cause I want to make money.
I want to, you know, write a book because I'm passionate about the topic. Right. So we can absolutely be motivated in a regulated way. That's not detrimental to our mental health and our regulation, but we also don't want to be the opposite where we're detached, don't care at all about anything. Um, so like you said, the stress isn't necessarily bad. It's when that stress puts us in a fight or flight thinking I need the anxiety and the panic in order to deal with the stress.
William Curb: And it's kind of like following our belief about what stress does. It's like, oh, yes. If we kind of go, it's like, oh yeah, stress is just amping me up to do the thing. Like it's like, I'm like, oh, I'm not scared. I'm excited.
Jenna Free: Yeah, totally. They do say that your body can't tell the difference between like scared, nervous feelings and excitement feelings. So if you like, and this is why the mental work is so important. So if you got to tell yourself, oh, I'm excited. Even when you're nervous, it actually feels a lot less painful. Yeah.
William Curb: Well, we're kind of coming up on time here. So I was wondering if you had any final thoughts you wanted to leave the audience with.
Jenna Free: My final thought is if you take nothing away from this talk, take with you. That's not the right way to put it. If you take nothing away, then goodbye. No, if you only take one thing away from this conversation, it would be the slowing down piece.
I even have little stickers for you. I was watching the video. There's no rush.
I have a side here. There's no rush is really challenging that rushing physically, the rushing mentally and the impatience that is not who we are. That is not just ADHD. That is your system signaling that it feels in fear.
So it's a really little bit more tangible way to do this work and a good place to start. When you're rushing somewhere, just physically slow down. When you're itching out of your skin, waiting in line, seeing how can I relax and feel a little bit more patient waiting here?
What are the thoughts I'm having? This should take so long. These people should hurry up. Oh, it's going to take as long as it's going to take. I'm safe. I'm OK. That is a really good place to start.
William Curb: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be here today.
Jenna Free: Thank you so much.
William Curb: Thanks again to Jennifer coming on the show and thank you for sticking with us all the way to the end. Be sure to check out Jenna's book, The Simple Guide to ADHD Regulation, A Secret to Finding Balance, Getting Things Done and Enjoying Your Life.
But before you go, let's do a quick rundown of today's top tips.
One, it's important to recognize that dysregulation is a physical state where blood flow moves from the brain to the limbs to prepare for danger. When we are in fight, flight or freeze, our ADHD symptoms are amplified because our brain's higher level processing is offline in favor of survival.
Two, while it is easy to rely on anxiety and panic to provide the urgency needed to start tasks, this can create a frantic crash cycle where we use future resources to survive the present. When we focus on regulation, it can allow us to find a sweet spot of motivation that is sustainable rather than explosive.
Three, people pleasing is often a survival strategy intended to keep others regulated so that we can feel safe by recognizing that our safety doesn't actually depend on everyone else liking us. It allows us to stop over committing and resenting our schedules.
All right, that's it. Thanks for listening. I'd love to hear what you thought of this episode. Feel free to connect with me over at hackingyouradhd.com/contact.
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And now for your moment of dad. Since my wife got that job at the grease factory, it's been really hard to get a hold of her.