So, we're on with Dan Barber.
Welcome to The Regenerative Journey.
Thank you.
And what- Nice to be here.
Nice to have you here.
Well, no, nicer to have you here.
And welcome to your cafeteria garden?
What do you call this little lovely space?
I like it.
Cafeteria garden. Is there an official name?
The dooryard garden is official.
The dooryar- I like cafeteria garden, though.
Well, that, um
and we're sitting in
I mean, I, I, I'll get you to briefly explain the sort of the, the setup where we are.
But this used to be
I'm looking at those little holders there.
This looks like it was a, a stable of some sort, or- It was.
was it hay?
Was it hay or, or horses?
Horses, yeah.
It's incredible.
Um, Dan, as I was explaining before, this is about your regenerative journey.
At some point, and I know you've got limited time, we'll get back to day one, where did little Dan Barber drop on the ground.
Um, where are we now?
Tell me, if you will, what it means to be a practitioner of culinary dr- delights to have his own slice of nature to actually participate in and have a, have a living, breathing laboratory as you do.
Uh, I mean, how important to a chef, craftsman, is it, to be in touch with this?
I just want to be clear that I'm
this is not my farm.
Uh, it's just- But you ha- you have access to- Well-
you're responsible for.
I'm, uh, um
hello, sir.
This is Lorde.
This is, this is Dan.
How are you, man?
This is Lorde.
Nice to meet you.
He's my security.
Oh, yeah?
Yeah.
He's just gonna suss you out for a few minutes.
I love it.
no worries.
And here comes Mommy.
comes Angelica.
We're meeting the family.
Dan, this is Angelica.
How are you?
I told, I- Nice to meet you.
You too, darling.
I told you we keep rolling.
That's
keep rolling.
Sorry.
I'm going to- No worries.
No worries.
I beg your pardon, but I need to take him otherwise you'll never
Okay.
No, that's okay.
Hey, can you go
can you go
can you go with- It's being recorded.
Can you go with mum?
Uh-oh.
You can
uh, you can stay here, but you just gotta be a bit quiet.
Okay.
Thanks, mate.
All right.
take a picture of you 2.
Um, sorry for that little disturbance.
No way.
No problem.
Tell me, yes, so- This happens with my kids all the time.
How, how old- Although, they're usually running away from me than towards me.
How old are your children? I have an 11-year-old and an 8-year-old. 80 00:02:09,633.9999999999854 --> 00:02:09,699.0000000000146 Yeah. 81 00:02:09,699.0000000000146 --> 00:02:11,840 Six and a half, 13 over there.
Oh, yeah?
Yes, um.
Okay.
Wow.
You're- Tell me, yeah, so in
you're in, you're in nature, you're in a beautiful environment, um, as green as
my eyes are dazzled by the greenery- Yeah.
being from Australia.
We just had a rain, rainstorm, so that's the- Yesterday?
Everything's popping, yeah.
Everything seems to rain at the same time here.
We were in Georgia.
Oh, yeah?
Uh, Will Harris.
Yeah.
A couple of days ago.
Oh, were you there?
Okay.
And then, we had
a couple of days with Will, did an interview there.
Joel Salatin- Yeah.
Jr.
Yeah.
Here.
Everything seems to rain on the same, at the same time.
Okay, good.
You're bringing, you're bringing the rains, man.
They all got rain.
Well, that's what they said.
I wish they could just rain in summer in Australia.
I wish I had the same skill.
I, I was gonna say, you could take some of that back to Australia.
It'd be good.
Now we better start talking about you.
Um, access, food, farming.
Tell me.
Does it, does it make you
does it blow your hair back?
Well, look, I'm very fortunate to have, uh, this farm-to-table ideal.
Actually, I have a, I have a table in the middle of a farm, so I'm
really have a skin in this game.
Uh, and, yeah, it's a great honor.
I mean, I'm the most privileged chef in the world.
Um, this direct access to food being grown in the right way, it's
and, and being part of the process.
You know, we tend to think of chefs and people who eat as the end of the food chain, you know?
When in fact, uh, I think involving us in the food chain as part of a linked chain is the way to think about the food system for the future, because we need people who care about food.
Chefs, in particular, curate flavors and, and therefore nutrition.
Because the only way that you can advocate for the right kind of food system is to have people who, uh, who are involved and, and in the know.
And this kind of connection to the world around us and how food is produced allows that conversation to be at the forefront.
I think the food always tastes better.
Is
yeah, the love factor?
The connection factor?
Well, I think we're hard-wired to want to know where our food comes from. Yeah. 138 00:04:18,160.0000000000291 --> 00:04:24,730 Wasn't that long ago we were rooting around for what was, what was delicious, what was poisonous, what was- What wouldn't kill us.
Yeah.
You know?
So that's still in us, and, uh
so I think there's a part of people come here and just feel relaxed because they're surrounded by, uh, agriculture and, and nature and beauty.
And you know, that tends to increase the appetite and allow you to taste things you otherwise wouldn't taste.
But it's als- and it's also a, a, y- you as a chef, and especially here, it's quite a responsibility, isn't it?
Because you are the connection between, you know, it's a bit of a, bit of a cliché, the farm and the plate, the paddock to plate, however you wanna, um, uh, term that.
But like, you are the link.
I've always said that you guys turn it up to 11.
You know, like, like, 'cause we can, we can groww
as farmers, we can grow nutritiously dense food in an environment we're improving environments at the same time.
But that kind of doesn't cut it unless people like you turn it up to 11 and present it and, and love it.
Um- Well, we have the opportunity to make people feel, you know?
And in a world that is increasingly acidic, is increasingly, uh, fraught, is increasingly, uh, isolating, the ability to make you connect with the world around you through deliciousness, through food, is very powerful.
Can we get back to day one?
Dan Barber? I like to get to the ci- to the place where, where we're not just getting people to feel, but getting people to think.
Uh, because it
it's also, you know, a, a dinner or a plate of food cannot just connect you to the world around you, but can get you t- to jumpstart a series of questions and, and curiosity and, um-
and something that you want to value, and take the time and the resources to replicate outside of here.
So, as a, as an eater, who's traveled from New York and had a, had a feed here, what, I mean, and, and no doubt they would think, they'd be blown away by this, all their senses.
What would be the next step for them in terms of that thinking?
The thinking and how they execute on their experience?
W- well, ideally, from your point of view?
Well, they go directly to a farmer.
You know?
That's the ticket.
Get a- get away from the supermarket.
Get to the farmer, 'cause that's the direct connection, and, and that's the same experience you're having here.
Uh, so it can be replicated at home.
Let's get to
Can you stop interrupting me when I'm asking a question?
Don't.
Ca- um, Dan, day one, where did you, where'd you land on, on the earth?
Where was w- h- how was that?
Was it a soft landing?
Where- Day one.
Day one here?
One day old.
No.
Oh.
We're go- we're go- we're going back to the beginning.
Oh. Your regenerative y- your regenerative journey started,
Well, I grew up on my-
I, I, I think my understanding of these kinds of issues came from working at Blue Hill Farm, which is a dairy farm in western Massachusetts that my grandmother started, uh, 50 years ago.
So, I was, uh, sorry, 80 years ago.
Um, so I was, uh, I was working the farm in the summers, and I think that inculcated a sense of the possibilities around agriculture and food and food production.
Were you
So you were living not on a farm?
Well, I grew up in the city, but I spent my summers working the farm.
You got the, you were baited.
Yeah.
Baited.
Yeah.
And the dairy, was it a, a commercial dairy, conventional dairy would you say?
Or was it- Yep.
Was it, they were doing some pretty cool things?
You know, the, it was a dairy when my grandmother took it over, and she actually stopped it from being dairy, and she, uh, grazed beef cattle, and then my brother and I returned it to dairy 20 years ago, uh, when we opened Stone Bar.
'Cause we didn't have dairy here.
Mm-hmm.
So, it was a opportunity to fulfill the dairy needs of the restaurant.
And your, uh, well did you have responsibilities there?
Was it, was it, was the, the farm
I just, I'm a- I'm, I'm drilling down on that a bit because I grew up on our farm.
Yeah.
Um, and I'm 8th generational farmer in Australia, and whatever else before that.
But I kind of appreciate the impact that nature would have on anyone growing up on a farm. D- did you have responsibility? 208 00:08:38,912.0000000000582 --> 00:08:40,371.9999999999418 Was it just a playground? 209 00:08:40,371.9999999999418 --> 00:08:42,982 Were you, was there any, um, appreciation- No, no.
It was a very serious fa- I mean, it was, you know, we, we were haying, and we're moving cattle, and haying for the w- You were working?
You were working?
Oh, working.
Oh, man.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Cool.
Yeah.
It was great.
Oh, it was very serious.
It's a, it's a, you know, it's 100 acre, 150 acres of pasture.
So, it's, it's, uh, big for us.
Big, big operation just for the summer.
Big deal.
Yeah.
Um, and schooling?
With schooling, did you, uh, sort of head towards subjects that were agricultural?
Or that was just what you did on the ho- in the holidays, and you were doing, were you gonna be a doctor?
Or what were you gonna do when you were in school?
Or was food always your, your bag?
No.
I didn't know what I
I mean, in, in college, I cooked a bit because I was earning a little extra money, and I had a friend who was interested in food.
And so we did it sort of on the side.
I t- I was thinking about becoming a writer, actually. So I, I, I, but f- cooking was a way to, a- gain some money on my way to writing.
And at what point did, did, uh, the, the, the cooking as a financial, you know, kind of, uh, means turn into something like, actually this is, these pans are okay?
Was there, was there - I don't think I ever had that moment.
Was there a moment, was there a hamburger you were cooking and you went, "Oh my God.
This is unreal"?
No.
I didn't, no.
no.
You know, I had a moment, uh, fif- 14 years ago when a breeder walked into my kitchen, uh, uh, a- Breeder?
a squash breeder, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Cool.
Yeah.
And, uh, I asked him, "If you're such a great squash breeder," 'cause he was quite well-known, "why don't you breed a, a squash that actually tastes good?"
"You know, why do we have to add maple syrup and brown sugar to squash?"
And that, that was a moment that changed my, changed my life.
And actually, weirdly got me to see the power of what I'm doing in a different context, which was having a conversation not just with farmers, which a lot of people have, um, and is becoming more recognized and, and mainstream.
But conversation with breeders, the architects of seeds and how seeds perform.
And, and flavor is all in the recipe they're writing.
So, that was an aha moment for the, for, you know, this- what I'm doing has reverberations, not just to the farm, but really to the blueprint for how our food system works, because it really does start with seed.
And it- was that here?
You said 15 years ago.
Yeah.
Right here.
Right down, right over there.
So, for the first 5 years, I mean, obviously- Well, for the first, for the first years of here, we were very much farm to table.
And, you know, "What are we growing here?"
And, and, and also farmers in this area, how are they growing?
What's their rotation?
What's their soil like?
I got very fixated on, on those, uh, those criteria.
Because, you know, my food, uh, and I don't know where this comes from, but my food's very simple.
You know, if you eat at my restaurant, it's like
I get very nervous when there's more than 3 ingredients on a plate. You know, there's usually 2. 271 00:11:37,319.9999999998836 --> 00:11:38,400 So, I'm very unplugged.
That's, that's not in keeping with how most chefs are these days.
And because of that, uh, I was forced to really make sure that what's on the plate sparked, you know?
Mm-hmm. Had a spark to it, um, was really convincing, uh, for people when they had, took a bite. 276 00:11:58,180.00000000011642 --> 00:12:03,510 Uh, and so I got really good at making sure that the ingredients that went on the plate were, were, were bullseyes.
And to do that, you have to connect with a farmer.
To do that, you got to get to know the farmer.
To do that, you got to get to know what kind of soil.
You got- just, you get into a big conversation.
That's what this place is, uh, and was when we opened. Um, and it educated me as a chef. 283 00:12:18,680.0000000001164 --> 00:12:26,760 It wasn't until that conversation with the breeder that I started to think, like, for all the onion peeling that I'm doing, I haven't gotten far enough.
Because in many ways, when, when it hits, when the, when the farmer plants the seed, the, the cake is already baked in a lot of ways, 'cause that genetic blueprint is in there.
Now, if the farmer does a good job, the genetics are expressed, and you get incredible jaw-dropping flavor and nutrition.
And you're, to do that, you need biodiversity and you need healthy soil.
And so a lot's taken care of.
But if the genetics are not there- Mm-hmm.
uh, you could have the best farmer in the world and those- nothing gets expressed.
So, genetics are a big part of this.
Um, and I didn't appreciate that until pretty late inning.
I saw recently your post about your sweet, sweet garlic.
Sweet garlic, yeah. I think we've got some of them in our garden. 295 00:13:12,180.00000000011642 --> 00:13:15,640 You know, garlic and leek are just doing their thing in the garden for years and years.
And then, it's like, "I don't even know what you are anymore."
No way.
They're delicious.
That's good to hear.
I don't know.
I could be, I could be wrong.
I'm an Australian burger.
Very hard to have them cross, so if that- Really?
if it happened, you should put a fence around it.
So, was your garlic, uh, was that a, um, a sp- was that a intentional cross?
Yes.
With a very famous allium breeder in Europe, who had it as his project to get it done. Because that- Yeah. 309 00:13:39,180.00000000011642 --> 00:13:41,480 it was considered very difficult.
Well, I'm either bullshitting or we have just done it naturally. Well, yeah, yeah, it's totally possible. 312 00:13:46,319.9999999998836 --> 00:13:46,410 I don't know.
There's no- It's just like-
unidentified plants there.
Okay, yeah.
No, that's- you, you might have gotten it.
Tell me, um, what, uh
We've sort of bypassed a whole- a few decades of your life.
We might get back there.
Tell me, what is the- you said
I mean, you're on a, you're on a journey here at the moment.
You've been here 20 years.
What, what's, what, what, what's the- not the gap, but what's the bit that you're hungry for next? Like, you, you seem to have so much of the, the journey covered. 325 00:14:16,160.00000000011642 --> 00:14:17,240 What- is there- is something else?
Genetics has been a more, you know, 15 years ago, a real focus.
Soil.
Um, the experience for, for diners.
Is there something else in the- Yeah.
the puzzle?
Get it, get it out of here.
Get it out of here. You know, the vectors have been pointing inward to improve what we do here and get it to a very high level. 334 00:14:36,160.00000000011642 --> 00:14:38,700 But the goal is to get it out.
Um, because there's no reason that you can't democratize the deliciousness that's rooted in good farming.
So, what would that look like?
Well, it would look like it becoming more accessible to more people.
Um, I mean, I don't like the word scale things, but, but I think spread.
You know, you spread the idea. You can't really scale great farming. 341 00:15:01,579.9999999998836 --> 00:15:03,040 It doesn't scale. What it does is spread. 343 00:15:04,819.9999999998836 --> 00:15:10,700 Um, you know, ideas spread and they recombine in different regions because there's different environments. So, farm to table, a connect, direct connection with a farmer and a chef in the Hudson Valley where we are, would look quite different in the American Southwest. 345 00:15:21,660.0000000001164 --> 00:15:23,184 Climate's drier.
The, uh, vegetation is different. Uh, but the concept is the same. 348 00:15:28,819.9999999998836 --> 00:15:31,360 And, and that's what I think we want to do. We want to become, uh, a idea that can be shared in other regions. 350 00:15:38,430.0000000001164 --> 00:15:39,860 And it- that already is happening.
I just would like it to happen faster because agriculture in this country, and I know a, a little bit about Australian agriculture, it's largely extractive.
And it's, uh, denigrating and, and denuding environments, and it's denigrating and denuding our, our health.
And that is not sustainable.
So, how we turn that around, agriculture has to play a role in that, um-
and, and we have the answer, you know. It's not technology. 357 00:16:12,680.0000000001164 --> 00:16:13,800 It's not technology.
I'm not anti-technology.
I just have not seen technology at play that overrules biology.
Uh, you know, biological systems are really complex, and I don't think we have a language for those.
We have a language for the tech things in agriculture, in everything, in everything.
We have this- this- this Steve Jobs, you know, Bill Gates paradigms.
But we very
we struggle with- with inefficiencies and- and nature's complexity, because, it's not A to B.
I- I always say, you can't fix a biological problem, whatever the problem is, with mechanics or technology. Yeah. 367 00:16:53,920.0000000001164 --> 00:16:55,680.0000000001164 It's just, you- you've got to use biology to- to do something. 368 00:16:55,680.0000000001164 --> 00:16:58,940 Having said that, it's not Luddite, as you- I'm sure you would subscribe to.
You know, the- that garlik that you mentioned, the- the love child of a leek and a garlic, happened very quickly because of technology. Um, you know, because of- of advances in computer technology and- and recognizing genetic traits that have produced wonderful results. 371 00:17:18,610.0000000001164 --> 00:17:19,940 So it's not- it's not anti-tech
I'm not Luddite.
Uh, but- but I am questioning how you use technology with agriculture, um, because agriculture is rooted in biology, as we said.
So it- it
That is much
infinitely more complex, and I think infinitely more interesting, actually, if you can tap into, uh, nature's power bi- uh, biology.
You know, that's a- that's a power charge.
And we're looking at it here.
Yeah.
I mean, that's abundant, isn't it?
Yeah.
Um, Will Harris said the other day, it's- it's- it's- it's lovely, what you just said, 'cause you're, you know, paralleling with
He said
I asked him the same question.
How do you
What are you going to do now?
What- how would you see this in the world?
And he said, "Oh, I can't
It's not about scaling, it's about just repeating."
Yeah.
You know, it's the- it's the- the framework, it's the blueprint, it's the principles and so on.
So, wouldn't I love to see one of these in Australia or all over the world. Um, Dan, let's get to 394 00:18:13,110.00000000023283 --> 00:18:14,220 so many questions.
Um, let's just fill in that little gap there.
From school, journ- one of the- I was training in restaurants, yeah.
I went through a hardcore inculcation into the world of- Formal or informal?
I went to a
N- not really formal.
It was more
It was working in restaurants in France.
Yeah.
I spent a lot of time in France. Yeah, so 405 00:18:33,860.0000000002328 --> 00:18:34,360.00000000023283 Who are your 406 00:18:34,360.00000000023283 --> 00:18:37,020 who are your, um, any mentors or
in your career that you just bow down to? And- Oh, there's so many. 409 00:18:43,679.9999999997672 --> 00:18:44,159 I mean-
who- who em- em- er-
so many.
There's a chef, Alain Ducasse, in France, that is- Oh, yeah.
you know, probably the greatest chef of our generation.
Uh, and he- he was a chef who was ex- extremely white tablecloth, high end.
Mm.
But- but- but utilized local farmers and- and traditions, and modernized them beautifully.
Um, f- fantastic, uh, r- uh, depth of knowledge and intuition.
And, um, he affected me greatly. Oh, there are- there are- there are tons. 420 00:19:19,360.00000000023283 --> 00:19:19,889.9999999997672 I mean, there's 421 00:19:19,889.9999999997672 --> 00:19:20,360.00000000023283 Mm. 422 00:19:20,360.00000000023283 --> 00:19:26,400 Chefs I- I just studied under some great chefs, and I learned from amazing chefs.
And I'm taking those ideas and practicing that craft in a very limited environment.
Even though we're sitting here in the middle of July in abundance, most of the year here is short growing season and difficult terrain.
Um, so navigating that and creating a recipe or a- a diet that is interconnected and healthy and delicious, I think, is the goal.
That isn't the goal to scale that.
The goal is to replicate those principles in different environments.
Mm-hmm.
We forget, the United States is enormous, with enormous geog- You're telling me.
Yeah, with- with enormous geographical differences, environmental and ecological differences.
Italy fits inside of New York state.
And Italy has, you know, 30 different kinds of radicchio, uh, in no- uh, depending on what town you go to in the north.
Was because soil conditions were different and temperature conditions started to change, and daylight, and cultural differences.
Even in Little Italy
not Little Italy, New York, Italy, the country, the small c- it's still teasing out differences depending on niches.
N- ecological niches and cultural niches.
And that is a very exciting- Mm-hmm.
actually food future.
I think we're, we've left the idea, at least in America, that you eat the same wherever you go.
I don't, people don't want that anymore.
You wanna go to, to the South of the United States- Mm-hmm.
and eat Southern, rich Southern traditions?
Barb- barbecue.
Well, barbecue has- Yeah.
exploded.
That's a good example- Yeah.
of a, of a thing that, yeah, you could export that to other areas.
But it, but it leaves behind the history and the cultural imprint.
And to me, it's much less exciting- Mm-hmm.
than to be in p- situin place.
And in, and in the Pacific Northwest, there's a, there's a, you know, a, a kind of ecological niche of, of abundance- Mm-hmm.
of incredible, uh, ecological strength and that, that's there.
You know, there's Michigan, there's certain
You know, it's just everywhere in our country, we have the niches.
And I think people, as they travel more, look for those niches.
They don't look for the same thing.
That's very different than, than when we opened Stone Barns, which was only 20 year- th- 30 years ago.
You know, it was all about you were ranked in, like, what dishes you had and you presented in your, in your, uh, restaurant.
If you should be a high-end restaurant, you had to have lobster or caviar or foie gras.
You had to have a certain kind of
And if you go back to the 1970s, God, it was even worse.
You go back to the '50s it was, it was, it was you knew what you were going to order before you even went out to a restaurant.
You knew what was gonna be on the menu?
Sure.
Yeah.
Sure.
You know, it was like
And, and chefs were unnamed and unknown.
They were drunk in the basement, you know-
uh, uh, uh, living the average age of 40, you know.
They were It was a miserable life, and it was the maître d' and the front of the, the, the, the head of the restaurant sta- the manager, the maître d', the owner, who, who had a repertoire of dishes, classic dishes, uh, that you were ranked on how well you prepared them. 474 00:22:27,139.99999999976717 --> 00:22:28,400 And that was safe, right?
Very safe and very boring.
So tell me what was the
Well- Chefs exploded that.
Yeah.
They, they broke the chains, you know.
That was the nouvelle cuisine chefs of the, of the, you know, early '70s a- and later '70s, you know, that said, "We don't wanna have our, our names buried, and we're artists, and we're craftsmen, and we're going to take advantage of the morning market."
That was the first.
Uh, and they simplified food, and, uh, they were technically at the highest level, but the simplicity and the ingredients and the regionality of what they expressed was extraordinary.
And it changed food forever.
Uh, in this country, I'm a disciple, discipline, um, I'm a disciple of those nouvelle cuisine chefs.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm taking that idea a bit further because I have the luxury to do so here in this environment.
There's a reputation, at least in Australia, neu- neu- nouveau cuisine was, you can guarantee it was only gonna be a very small serve.
That was, that was the biggest thing.
It was like, "Oh, that's really fancy-" Yeah.
and really small-" Right.
and I want my money back."
Yeah.
You know, that was a kind of a thing- Yeah.
back then.
That was an unfortunate phase that nouvelle cuisine went through, and then, and that got captured by the media.
But what, the thing that was lost, uh, I think, uh, in the story of nouveau, nouvelle cuisine was the, was these leading chefs who revolted against the dictates of tradition and wanted their name on the menu. And you got the restaurant, you know, Paul Bocuse in France. 498 00:23:58,639.9999999997672 --> 00:24:06,930 Like, it was just craziness that, that y- you would go to a restaurant and see something unexpected, um, or, or combina- flavor combinations that were unexpected. It seems so crazy, but it was only 50 years ago, you know. 500 00:24:09,639.9999999997672 --> 00:24:16,399 And, and today, you're ranked on how differentiated you are and how specific you are to place and part.
Um, that's very exciting.
I, I think that people are, are waking up to this.
I don't think we'll go back to, but I, I don't think we'll go back to, to, to those days.
Mm-hmm.
I think, in fact, that drive towards differentiation and, and niches and taking advantage of your locality will bleed down into the culture.
Um, I, I don't
I think the days of mass audience for s- particular foods is, is waning.
That's not to say we're not gonna have hamburgers in this country.
But as you can see, the explosion of- Mm-hmm.
even hamburgers has been localized.
You know, it's been, it's been different concepts around pizza or, or burgers that have become, you know, you go to the city to get the best burger there.
And they, they often are purchasing meat from regional
You know, t- this is so interesting.
It's like that, there's been a whole turning upside down of the expectations for going out to eat.
And I think it's true that that is impregnating itself into the everyday food culture of Americans.
My daughter, um, Lila, is a burger, um, aficionado of sorts.
She doesn't look like she eats a lot of burgers.
She's very slim.
Uh, but she has had a theory, until she came over here, that you only get good burgers in burger shops.
But since she's been here, she's gone, "Oh, no, I'm gonna try the burger in the whatever restaurant."
Yeah.
And she's like, she's going, "This is, this is amazing."
It's totally changed, deflected her whole, whole whole idea about burger shops.
Tell me, um, Dan, is there, is there a deflection point that we are heading towards good or bad?
Do, do you have any insight into, um, the future of food in, let's just stay in America for the moment, where we're heading towards, you know, a, a tension event, a deflection point?
that's either good or bad.
You know, like in terms of the evolution of food culture and farming and, and- I think we're headed into an inflection point where we can't sustain a world where food and agriculture account for 35% of greenhouse gas emissions, and we can't sustain a country's health when the vast proportion of diseases are diet-related, a vast proportion of deaths are diet-related.
We saw that so clearly during COVID, but we see it even post- and pre-COVID.
It's just, that- those 2 things can't last. And so the answer is w- well, how do you- how do you circle out of that? 531 00:26:52,822.9999999997672 --> 00:27:04,994.0000000002328 And I think we need to retrench, retrench and refocus our diets towards deliciousness because what- what is killing the environment and killing us doesn't taste very good. 532 00:27:04,994.0000000002328 --> 00:27:07,024 And that's the real tragedy.
That's the real tragedy. You know, uh, food is such an opportunity to not just connect with the world around you, but to- to become a pleasure focal point for your life. 535 00:27:16,822.9999999997672 --> 00:27:29,164 And that- that opportunity, I think, as people, especially millennials, you know, this younger generation, uh, I have those cooks in my kitchen, and then Generation Z, man, they are dialed in, dialed in- Mm-hmm.
and wanting to know where the food comes from, how it was grown.
It's very exciting.
Do they lift you?
Like, do you
I mean, I'm sure they're riding on your coattails.
I mean, they're here and your reputation, but do you
You know, what's the sort of
Is there a bit of a 2way street?
There's always a two Yeah. 546 00:27:43,764.0000000002328 --> 00:27:43,924 Yeah.
I mean, you know, I- I get some of the best cooks in the world come from all over the world to be here.
So, I feel the pressure to make sure that they get educated and get inspired.
Uh, but
And that keeps me here, so I'm here a lot, and it's because of them.
if I don't do that, I don't get them, and if I don't get them, I lose a huge vibrancy from my life, and the quality, and- and, you know, all of that All the drive, the- the inquisitiveness, the curiousness, and the drive to learn. 553 00:28:15,764.0000000002328 --> 00:28:21,136 I mean, this- these kids out there, they're very hungry, and it's 554 00:28:24,418.00000000023283 --> 00:28:25,164 wasn't
Is that one of your lunch guests coming?
I wasn't- I wasn't that way when I was that age, but it's- it's great to see. Don't be alarmed if there's a bee on you. 558 00:28:35,514.0000000002328 --> 00:28:36,664 No, it's all right.
Um, Now I'm distracted.
Uh, one? Um, tell me about the Center for Food and Agriculture because this, when I walked in and I met Elizabeth, um, from communications, lovely, lovely girl. 562 00:28:53,583.9999999997672 --> 00:28:55,664 She helped us get us set up here.
I- I was like, like, this feels like, um, an agricultural university.
Yeah.
It had a- had a
You know, it's quite grand and there's like
See, Elizabeth is a good example of that because she- she came as a front of the house server- Yeah. Yeah. 569 00:29:08,764.0000000002328 --> 00:29:09,764.0000000002328 but 570 00:29:09,764.0000000002328 --> 00:29:11,604 Not but, and- Hmm.
it was very clear that she's super bright, inquisitive, very talented writer and- and speaker and- and just communicator with guests.
And we work very closely with Stonebarn Center in terms of articulating the vision of what's happening here on the programs and the outreach.
And she was a perfect example of the kind of people that we're lucky enough to attract and are fighting constantly to offer more if they want more than just serving in the- in the restaurant.
Um, and there is a cohort of people who come here and are- are excited to go beyond the- the- the service, and people who don't wanna s- don't see themselves in a restaurant for their career, so we wanna give them opportunities, so we created this job for her- Mm-hmm.
um, because she's so talented.
Uh, but that- that's what I was saying in terms of the
You know, being here and activating a kind of energy around this place is important because you get people like that.
Um, tell me, uh, how do people, how do eaters and- I didn't just say that 'cause she can hear us.
She's over she's over there. 580 00:30:21,25.99999999976717 --> 00:30:22,344 She's gonna say, she's gonna come
Do you think she's gonna come over and say, "Now, when Dan said this"
Can you just chop that out?
No.
But she might come over and say, "Can I have a raise?"
Oh, I'll back her.
I'll back her 'cause she's been wonderful.
Actually, Elizabeth, do you mind?
Can you take a photo of us like, in, in the, in the moment?
If that's- Yeah.
okay?
Yeah.
Just any time.
Any- In the moment.
I love it.
I know.
That came out
yeah.
How much we got?
15.
14.
Um, Dan, how do guests and eaters and, and customers here interact with the Center for Food and Agriculture?
Like, what are, what are the touch points for them to, um, engage with what you guys are doing?
And then, and then, hopefully, go back and do something with it?
You know, what, what are they, what are they taking home?
We offer tours, programming, tastings, uh, lectures, cooking classes, uh, to the public and to members who can become intimately involved in gardening and in, in, in growing.
Uh, and we, uh, are hoping that they will take that experience and bring it back to their communities.
Yeah.
And people can, um, turn up and wander.
We did.
We got here an hour early.
We sort of wandered through here and through the courtyard.
Are people
Can people wander through the veggie garden and things like that?
Oh, yeah.
Or are some places out of that?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So it's pretty much a free-for-all.
It's a free-for
You can't really pick your own vegetables.
But you can, you can walk around.
I was looking at those apples there.
Are they a red variety or they're just say
they're still green?
Or are they a green variety?
There's both red and green.
Yeah.
All right.
I didn't see any sign saying don't pick the apples, either.
Oh.
Okay.
Well, they're free- I know.
I didn't-
for the taking.
No.
Hands in the air.
I didn't.
I w- I wouldn't have, um, I wouldn't have done that.
Tell me, um, any projects that are coming up that you're super pumped about?
The, uh
Yeah.
There might be some that you can't tell us about.
tell you any-
I'll tell, tell you anything, man.
Uh, what
Yeah.
What's next?
What's the next big thing?
You know, we've recognized that a lot of the ideas that we're generating in the kitchen, I mentioned to you we wanna get outside the 4 walls of a, you know, a white tablecloth restaurant and get out there.
And the research that we have done over 20 years on rotational crops, on, on cover crops or on old dairy cows.
Uh, let me give you the example of old dairy cows.
Mm-hmm.
At Blue Hill Farm, just 75 miles from here, a mama that's at the end of her life for milking, she's not giving as much milk.
In America, that cow is thrown into the dog food chain or fast, fast food burgers that your daughter probably wouldn't like.
We've recognized
We've used the meat here starting 20 years ago.
We recognized, wow, this, this is some of the most delicious meat.
These older ladies, if you raise them right and you dry them off after they're done milking, you'd spend some time fattening them up, they are exquisitely delicious.
And instead of throwing them away, seriously, at $0.60 a pound, which is what they go for on dairy farms, uh, what about if we finish them right and gave them broadcasting that they deserve? Um, we pay now for good quality dairy cow under our protocols, $6.75 a pound. 663 00:33:34,139.99999999976717 --> 00:33:34,840 So we're
there's a $6 difference- Mm-hmm.
per pound on a, on a 600-pound animal.
That is a huge economic lever for dairy farms.
I'm saying that because we wanna take that understanding that we have, that we keep here, and get it out.
So we're starting a program, a new program on research and development within Stone Barns.
It's a joint venture between Stone Barns Center, the not-for-profit, and Blue Hill.
And it's gonna be, uh, an opportunity for us to R&D ideas that are equitable for the farmer, that the farmers have a stake, uh, and to get those ideas out into the world, um, faster and more democratically than in
sitting at a table at Blue Hill. So would that in- That's the next initiative. 673 00:34:21,639.9999999997672 --> 00:34:22,940 We're gonna launch that in the fall. Yeah. 675 00:34:23,159.99999999976717 --> 00:34:23,820.0000000002328 Cool. 676 00:34:23,820.0000000002328 --> 00:34:24,679.9999999997672 Would, would that include 677 00:34:24,679.9999999997672 --> 00:34:37,080 'cause in the dairy industry, the conventional ones at least, there's a general criticism often of the male calves are either, you know, got rid of, um, 'cause they obviously can't make milk. You know, but in some 679 00:34:38,840.0000000002328 --> 00:34:42,060 you know, some people in Australia are actually going, "Well, now, there's a lot of value in these.
There are qualities there that we're happy to explore." And so they'll keep them on as a steer, not necessarily to a bullock. 682 00:34:49,260.00000000023283 --> 00:34:49,720.0000000002328 Are you 683 00:34:49,720.0000000002328 --> 00:34:57,500 Is that another thing like, you know, like what happens to the males at, at the dairy farm at the moment in terms of like their life?
What happens to the males?
Yeah.
To the males.
Well, that's, that's the other side of the equation. I mean, the veal calves- Yeah. 689 00:35:03,220.00000000046566 --> 00:35:03,800 are Right now, on many dairy farms, they're 691 00:35:06,720.0000000004657 --> 00:35:11,279.99999999953434 if they can get someone to pick it up, a trucker to pick it up, on larger dairy farms, they have a lot of male calves that 692 00:35:11,279.99999999953434 --> 00:35:14,800 you know, at once and so they can ship them off for veal.
Um, we don't eat a lot of veal in this country.
Is that right?
No.
We produce males at 50% clip at every dairy farm.
You know- Yeah.
everyone who's born is 50% male.
So there's a whole deep dark secret about what happens to those males.
Most of them are just killed and composted, uh, right, right after they're born.
Uh, so we
the second part of our project is to make a big push for veal calves, um, and make veal part of, uh, a responsible diet.
It's been maligned as a, you know, torturing baby cows. But man, that was raising them in the wrong way that was chained and having them not move and become anemic. 705 00:35:58,279.99999999953434 --> 00:36:07,480 We've discovered that if veal calves move around and oxidate the muscles and have a very happy life or young life, they have a happy life but one bad day.
they are extraordinarily delicious.
Mm.
Um, so, that's the other side of the equation.
So, so if you're going to help dairies thrive, you're gonna, you're gonna help on the, on the back end when you call out a, uh, a lady and, and give value to the farmer, and honor that meat because it's extraordinary.
And on the other side, the males that are born were going to be broadcasting the, the amazing flavor and protein potential of veal calves.
Well, you're helping, um, find a solution to a problem.
Right.
Don't you?
Yes.
Which is kind of, you know, not just turning things up to 11, but going, "No, we can actually, we, you know, partner," as you say.
You know?
Right.
Partner on these problems.
Right.
And, and do it on a, on a, on a scale that's bigger than just 45 diners a night.
Yeah.
Uh, so that's why I want to get the ideas out.
I just, I don't want to keep
We're tired of keeping everything to ourselves.
So this company that we're launching is to do that, is to get it out.
If you were to write another chapter of The third Plate, which came out in 2014- Yeah.
has, has people asked you this question before?
Not really.
What would, what would you say?
I think I wrote the next chapter.
It's, it's with starting the seed company.
I started a seed company in 2018 'cause I ended the book with breeders because I kept dialing down, you know, un- peeling the onion.
Mm-hmm.
And I got past the farmers to the breeders.
I just got introduced to a world that I, I just found so fascinating, these characters who are writing the recipe, as I said, for the future of food.
So, I started a seed company instead of writing another chapter, uh, which was to advertise their work.
And we started a seed company based on really just delicious vegetables that the big food chain was rejecting.
Uh, it's called Row 7, uh, and I hope it gets to Australia soon.
Have you been to Australia?
Oh, yeah.
I love Australia.
I did a book tour in Australia, man.
Wh- oh, when, when The third Plate came out.
When the book came out.
Yeah. I love, I love Australia. 747 00:38:00,28.00000000046566 --> 00:38:00,948 I was there a couple times.
Have, have you got any good buddies over there that you kind of, I don't know, check in on or have anything to do with?
Well, Joost, right?
He's our buddy.
He's our- Yeah.
Yeah, well, thank you, Joost, for your- Joost.
lovely, uh, connection.
No, I know, boost, used, Joost.
Joost, I'm sorry.
I've been mispronouncing your name for 15 years, man.
But he's super like to say, "Hey, mate."
Well, don't.
Yeah, no.
I know, right.
No.
Don't do it again.
That guy is angelic, man.
He's cool.
I think he's touched by God, that guy.
Eh, it's beautiful. Don't, don't pump his tires up too much. 768 00:38:26,346.99999999953434 --> 00:38:26,727 Yeah, okay.
You're right.
Keep him lovely.
But he's, he's very clever with his 0waste stuff, his construction, the sustainable, um- Yeah.
materials.
He, I actually don't know, and he's a florist. Yeah. 776 00:38:36,528.0000000004657 --> 00:38:36,898 Well, I don't act- Amazing.
I actually don't know how he does it all.
I know. He's a freak. 780 00:38:39,988.0000000004657 --> 00:38:40,808 Freak.
Um- Beautiful family, too. So, when are you coming back? 783 00:38:45,87.99999999953434 --> 00:38:48,688 Well, I'm trying to put together a book here for, for about seeds.
So maybe I'll be back when that thing comes out.
Or, or before.
I'd love to come before.
Well, you're most welcome. Uh, not that I'm the person who lets people in and out of Australia, but, um, if you do come back, you are most welcome to, um, visit. 789 00:39:00,837.9999999995343 --> 00:39:01,828 Where's your farm? So we're about three and a half hours southwest of Sydney. 791 00:39:04,988.0000000004657 --> 00:39:05,228 Okay.
So Canberra.
Yeah. No one knows about Canberra, you know. 795 00:39:07,386.99999999953434 --> 00:39:07,598 Yeah, I've heard.
It's a nation's capital.
Yeah, yeah, sure.
But yeah, everyone's heard of it.
Well, not me. Uh, we're an hour and a half north of there, and we have, as I was saying before, sheep, cattle, um, pigs free-ranging. 801 00:39:16,488.00000000046566 --> 00:39:17,488.00000000046566 I've got to sort that out. 802 00:39:17,488.00000000046566 --> 00:39:21,268 Actually, I got some great tips from Joel Salatin the other day about how to keep, how to keep pigs in
We're in my garden. How to what? 805 00:39:22,886.9999999995343 --> 00:39:25,28.00000000046566 How to keep pigs in one space. 806 00:39:25,28.00000000046566 --> 00:39:28,328 Um, so if you come down to Australia, you're most welcome to, to join us there.
Why do you want to keep pigs in one space? I mean, the more they, the more the forage, the better tasting they are. 809 00:39:32,587.9999999995343 --> 00:39:33,28.00000000046566 Well, no. 810 00:39:33,28.00000000046566 --> 00:39:33,748 Actually, good point.
What I need to do is secure our garden. Oh. 813 00:39:35,337.99999999953434 --> 00:39:36,548 'Cause they come in the garden.
Oh. And just trash- I bet. 816 00:39:38,87.99999999953434 --> 00:39:39,587.9999999995343 the shit out of everything. 817 00:39:39,587.9999999995343 --> 00:39:43,587.9999999995343 Tell me, um, Dan, conscious of time, what 818 00:39:43,587.9999999995343 --> 00:39:44,886.9999999995343 This is where you might 819 00:39:44,886.9999999995343 --> 00:39:52,568 You're clearly a pretty humble sort of guy anyway, but if- You know, my dad used to say I was humble, and then he added, "But you have a lot to be humble about." Okay. 821 00:39:53,488.00000000046566 --> 00:39:54,148 All right.
Okay, with that in mind, what, what do you think your genius is? 823 00:39:58,721.9999999995343 --> 00:40:00,348 Oh, I don't have a genius, man. I, you know, I'm in search of genius. 825 00:40:02,28.00000000046566 --> 00:40:05,328 The, the, maybe that's the genius, is that I'm in search of, like
I'm, I'm constantly just really curious.
But look, I'm in an environment where how could you not be curious?
But I, I, there are people who I have s- been surrounded by, Joel Salatin is one of them- Yeah.
uh, who just are, are, are treasures of information, uh, and knowhow, and I think I'm pretty dogged about learning from them.
And, and if that
if there's any, you know, super power that's attached to that, uh, it's probably there.
Do you find that in the
Uh, I mean, I'll use the term regenerative agriculture, sustainable ag, whatever you want to call it, that, that the tribe of those kind of people, like your Joels and your Wills and others, there are, they're a particular type of person?
That
I'm not saying they're better or worse than conventional farmers or whatever, but is there, is there a
does a, does, does a regenerative farmer, do you feel, whether they're veggies or animals, require particular things to just challenge the status quo?
Is there
have you, have you sensed in them a particular character trait that is, um, a bit unique?
In regenerative farmers?
Yeah.
Compared to conventional.
Again, not, not putting anyone on top or below anyone else.
Well, I would put them on top.
Just- I don't have a problem with that.
Okay.
I mean, I, I think people who are thinking organically are forced into making some very complex decisions, uh, that are genius and specific to place.
And yeah, I'd put them above the conventional guys.
The conventional farming, you know, l-
for the most part, pretty easy, you know.
Because when you confronted
when you're confronting problems, you can spray the problem away.
Yeah.
You can't do that in a, in a, in an organic environment.
So I'm, I'm pretty enamored with truly organic practices.
When I say truly, I mean they go way beyond what the level of definition of organic is.
And, and that's, that's deep-rooted, man.
And, and that's biological.
That's knowing your biology, and- Mm-hmm.
and being attuned to it.
And, and I find it s-
uh, staggering genius in that.
Um, so, yeah.
No.
I, I would, I would rank them way above the conventional guys if you ask me.
Thank you.
Tell me, um, uh, you
Oh, god.
One more qu-
Trying to squeeze one more question in.
What is any philosophy
'Cause I read somewhere, you know, that you're a philosopher, a philosophy chef you've been termed.
You probably knew that.
Is there anything
What's
Is, is there any s- the, the latest kind of angle, philosophical angle you've taken?
You've read a book and gone, "Holy shit.
That's cool."
Or, you know, something that's
This is priming you for the next question, which should be my last one.
Uh, is there some little epiphany you've had that's just like, "Oh, shit"?
You know, over the last couple years, the epiphanies have been endless over seed.
Seed.
Possibilities around seed.
And just continuing to talk to different breeders, whether it's fruit breeders or vegetable breeders or grain breeders, like what the potential is if we really have a conversation with breeders.
Um, I think it's just a world-changing idea.
Um, so I, I
Those epiphanies keep coming, because I keep meeting different and interesting breeders.
Animals too?
Like, like in terms of breeds of animals?
I don't mean as m-
I mean, the animal kingdom is not something that I'm delving into with breeding.
But I'm fascinated by it just because of the work I do here.
You know, what, what pigs really do taste the best on pasture, you know?
And, and, and what is that hybrid vigor between 2 parent lines you bring together and you get this, like, unbelievable flavor and marbling?
You know, that, that is the gift.
I don't know.
It's a gift from God.
It's like, Jesus.
It's
You know.
And so tha- th- but that's all genetics.
Mm-hmm.
It's not all genetics.
Sorry.
The farmer's in there big, big time.
But, uh, man, the genetics are fascinating.
So I
That's
What I, what I consider epiphany is the idea that there's just a whole life of knowledge to learn.
And I'm
I want to get there.
Last one.
Um- Last question.
This is the grim rea- No, no.
You know the grim reaper?
No.
Here k- he comes.
He warned me about you knowing that.
I know.
I did.
She comes.
So, Dan- She takes me down.
So yeah. We've got a big 925 00:44:24,779.9999999995343 --> 00:44:29,080 Uh, we can put a billboard, 2sided billboard next to a highway somewhere.
Big as busy a highway as you want.
Yeah. You've got 929 00:44:31,220.00000000046566 --> 00:44:34,960 You can put a quote, a, a word, a phrase, a question on both sides.
You can put them on both sides, but that's wasting a side too.
Is there
Is there a quote or a, or a little, um, maxim- You can put them on both sides, meaning someone's passing bys.
Ye- ye- They're looking at it, but you don't want them to look back because- Well, no.
They can, they can, they can see
If they're going north, they can see one quote.
If they're coming south, they'll see another one.
Oh.
I'm just saying don't put the same on both sides.
I mean, you can if you want.
Oh.
If you really want to emphasize it.
Oh, I would say, you know- And if you've got 2
I, I would
Well, I would do the same thing on both sides.
If you're headed in a direction and you're deep into your journey, but you've recognized that you're going on the wrong path, it's not too late to turn around.
That's very cool. I would say that on both ends. 949 00:45:12,720.0000000004657 --> 00:45:12,920 Yeah.
I mean, I would say that to farmers.
I'd say it to chefs.
I'd say it to anybody who's in the business of producing food, that we tend to think that we have a food system or, or, or a, a structure of, of the way we work that's fixated and, and, and inconcrete and fossilized and impossible to disrupt and turn on its head.
And my experience, and I think the experience of the last 50 years of agriculture and food says otherwise, that no matter how far you've gone on a journey, you can, you, you could, you can disrupt it quickly.
You can get off.
You can get on and exit and turn around.
And that's much better than just staying the course and trying to tinker with your, your journey to make it a little bit better.
Um, and that's, that's a lot of what sustainable agriculture is.
We're on this fucking journey where sustainability has become let's just do this less bad.
Less chemicals, less water use, less soil degradation.
You know, I use 70% less chemicals.
But that's not what's needed right now.
You know?
And I don't want to applaud that because it gives an excuse for tinkering at the
around the edges of a, of a really broken system.
And that, that's what I would say on the highway, man.
If you're y- If, if you 968 00:46:33,220.00000000046566 --> 00:46:39,860 There is always time to make bold life-changing directional changes.
Um, and to think otherwise is to be regretful about it later in life.
Gold.
Thanks so much.
All right.
Man, thank you.
That's it. Thank you for your contribution. 976 00:46:48,779.9999999995343 --> 00:46:50,300 I hope you have a good lunch here.