1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:06,160 You're listening to A Very Spatial Podcast, episode 744, August 18th, 2024. 2 00:00:20,020 --> 00:00:21,539 Hello and welcome to A Very Spatial Podcast. 3 00:00:21,570 --> 00:00:22,149 I'm Jesse. 4 00:00:22,390 --> 00:00:22,900 I'm Sue. 5 00:00:23,259 --> 00:00:23,759 I'm Barb. 6 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:24,560 And this is Frank. 7 00:00:25,100 --> 00:00:28,169 And this week we're going to kind of reminisce. 8 00:00:28,349 --> 00:00:30,799 It's not quite our 20th anniversary, but it is. 9 00:00:31,130 --> 00:00:32,880 Others 20th anniversary. 10 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,150 So we'll talk a little bit about what was going on back in 2004. 11 00:00:37,220 --> 00:00:40,919 But first of course, there's always news. 12 00:00:41,589 --> 00:00:46,830 First up this week, there've been a couple of recent cases that have made it 13 00:00:46,860 --> 00:00:52,760 up to the federal level that have looked at the idea of geo fencing warrants. 14 00:00:53,460 --> 00:00:57,150 The most recent one is the fifth circuit stated that. 15 00:00:57,660 --> 00:01:04,280 They're not constitutional, but they did accept the one that was being done 16 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:10,639 because it wasn't something that there was a lot of precedence about for the people 17 00:01:10,639 --> 00:01:12,310 who had sought that particular warrant. 18 00:01:13,119 --> 00:01:18,579 This kind of is to the counter of what the fourth court or fourth 19 00:01:18,579 --> 00:01:25,049 circuit last month stated, which was that they were constitutional. 20 00:01:25,060 --> 00:01:27,799 So we've got kind of two different perspectives on it. 21 00:01:27,940 --> 00:01:31,969 And I think both of them are saying it's somewhat constant contextual, 22 00:01:32,839 --> 00:01:37,239 but it's one of those things where, you know, whenever you're talking 23 00:01:37,249 --> 00:01:42,619 about, okay, tell me everybody who was in this area that goes beyond, 24 00:01:42,629 --> 00:01:48,009 of course, looking at an individual and the main things that are the, the 25 00:01:48,449 --> 00:01:50,799 precepts behind the fourth amendment. 26 00:01:51,759 --> 00:01:57,729 And so it's, it is, it is one of those things that it is a question mark of, 27 00:01:57,929 --> 00:02:04,589 you know, how much, especially in our data era, is appropriate whenever you're 28 00:02:04,589 --> 00:02:08,989 talking about warrants and things that can, you know, have very significant 29 00:02:08,989 --> 00:02:10,759 impacts on people's livelihoods. 30 00:02:11,414 --> 00:02:14,234 Both that are involved or potentially involved in those 31 00:02:14,234 --> 00:02:17,184 who are just near the incident. 32 00:02:17,524 --> 00:02:19,504 How much of that information should be shared 33 00:02:19,714 --> 00:02:19,944 yet? 34 00:02:19,964 --> 00:02:22,554 Just for edification for those who aren't U. 35 00:02:22,554 --> 00:02:22,674 S. 36 00:02:22,674 --> 00:02:25,404 citizens and won't necessarily know all the amendments pretty 37 00:02:25,644 --> 00:02:26,714 particularly well, even if you are U. 38 00:02:26,714 --> 00:02:26,744 S. 39 00:02:26,754 --> 00:02:29,814 citizens, the 4th Amendment is the protection against unreasonable 40 00:02:29,814 --> 00:02:34,614 searches and senior seizures, as well as indication about how warrants. 41 00:02:35,124 --> 00:02:39,034 Can and cannot be issued and particularly it relates to probable cause. 42 00:02:39,044 --> 00:02:44,734 So that's why this is, you know, basically butts up against a lot of things 43 00:02:44,744 --> 00:02:46,184 that are stated in the 4th amendment. 44 00:02:46,684 --> 00:02:50,544 The flip side of this is that if you've got 2 circuits, the 4th and the 5th that 45 00:02:50,554 --> 00:02:54,574 are at odds with each other, that does increase the probability of this ends 46 00:02:54,574 --> 00:02:56,184 up at the Supreme Court at some level. 47 00:02:56,714 --> 00:02:59,804 And to, to clarify the nuances. 48 00:02:59,814 --> 00:03:03,574 So there's a good chance this ends up at the Supreme Court, given this 49 00:03:03,584 --> 00:03:06,994 particular court, it's kind of a crapshoot how that gets interpreted. 50 00:03:07,074 --> 00:03:10,004 So it will very much be up in the air. 51 00:03:11,054 --> 00:03:15,874 And that's, by the way, another part of the us justice system is that when 52 00:03:15,874 --> 00:03:18,144 you appeal a decision made in a court. 53 00:03:18,324 --> 00:03:18,904 The U. 54 00:03:18,904 --> 00:03:19,074 S. 55 00:03:19,074 --> 00:03:22,734 is divided up into appeals districts at the federal level. 56 00:03:22,734 --> 00:03:26,184 And so that's what the, the Fifth Circuit and Fourth Circuit refer to is 57 00:03:26,394 --> 00:03:30,644 which, which sort of federal appeals district you're in for that case. 58 00:03:30,644 --> 00:03:34,764 And so decisions handed down as precedent in one, as in this 59 00:03:34,764 --> 00:03:38,434 case, right may not Be the same as what gets handed down in another. 60 00:03:38,434 --> 00:03:41,414 And then the next level up is the Supreme court. 61 00:03:41,414 --> 00:03:45,044 So it can make for differing interpretations. 62 00:03:45,054 --> 00:03:46,154 One case has come through. 63 00:03:47,404 --> 00:03:47,534 Yeah. 64 00:03:47,594 --> 00:03:51,384 When I was reading this and I saw the one that they had said, well, they, 65 00:03:51,434 --> 00:03:53,684 they, you know, we're letting it through. 66 00:03:54,049 --> 00:03:58,439 Because they hadn't realized the, the scope of what they were asking, it made me 67 00:03:58,459 --> 00:04:04,209 think beyond the law to what we understand about technology and I kept thinking about 68 00:04:04,209 --> 00:04:07,969 when we watch police procedurals, and we see people go enhance, enhance, enhance. 69 00:04:08,479 --> 00:04:10,309 I felt that very, that very much. 70 00:04:10,309 --> 00:04:13,139 This was very similar and that it can feel like. 71 00:04:13,644 --> 00:04:16,934 You know, let's just do the G offense and collect everything in it without 72 00:04:16,964 --> 00:04:23,224 understanding that it's not going to do exactly what you think it is, or that 73 00:04:23,224 --> 00:04:27,594 it's possible to do what you think it does again, the idea that we see things 74 00:04:27,594 --> 00:04:32,634 on TV that we think are possible, but aren't really possible at this time. 75 00:04:32,929 --> 00:04:36,899 Next up in the news Overture Maps has released its general availability of a 76 00:04:36,899 --> 00:04:39,209 lot of its global open maps datasets. 77 00:04:39,209 --> 00:04:43,779 I think all of them actually, this is the, the Overture members are a 78 00:04:43,779 --> 00:04:46,050 Meta, Microsoft, Esri, and TomTom. 79 00:04:46,050 --> 00:04:49,099 So we're talking about a lot of data capabilities. 80 00:04:49,669 --> 00:04:50,499 Yeah, there's a lot more too. 81 00:04:51,254 --> 00:04:53,804 Yeah, there's a lot more, but there's the big ones. 82 00:04:53,854 --> 00:04:56,094 Obviously, we're talking about a lot of data and a lot of 83 00:04:56,094 --> 00:04:57,484 stuff that can be out there. 84 00:04:57,524 --> 00:05:01,694 They're all global data sets are all the open data sets, and it's kind of 85 00:05:01,694 --> 00:05:05,604 nice that because they've released this as a general availability. 86 00:05:05,604 --> 00:05:07,214 That means that anybody can use them. 87 00:05:08,179 --> 00:05:09,509 More or less for any purposes. 88 00:05:09,509 --> 00:05:12,659 I'm sure if you look at the details of the license, there are some 89 00:05:12,659 --> 00:05:15,329 limitations, but, you know, the generally available, I'm guessing 90 00:05:15,339 --> 00:05:16,199 that they're gonna be centered around. 91 00:05:16,199 --> 00:05:17,509 You can't repackage it and sell it. 92 00:05:17,559 --> 00:05:20,479 But if you're doing anything else, they're open data now. 93 00:05:21,009 --> 00:05:25,479 So, of course, we talked to over trip maps about a year ago, and that was when they 94 00:05:25,479 --> 00:05:29,679 were first going into their first alpha release and beta and moving through beta. 95 00:05:30,169 --> 00:05:30,580 And. 96 00:05:31,280 --> 00:05:35,570 You know, it's, it's exciting for them to get to that point where they are 97 00:05:35,570 --> 00:05:37,340 releasing these to general availability. 98 00:05:37,349 --> 00:05:43,090 And in addition to that, they're also releasing an alpha of 200, 99 00:05:44,049 --> 00:05:46,949 over 200 million addresses as well. 100 00:05:47,029 --> 00:05:49,440 So they're starting a different data theme. 101 00:05:49,844 --> 00:05:53,874 In addition, so for addresses and this is going into alpha and I 102 00:05:53,874 --> 00:05:55,744 don't think that one is global. 103 00:05:56,085 --> 00:05:56,584 I'm not sure. 104 00:05:56,584 --> 00:06:00,145 I didn't look to see what the extent of that was, but 14 countries, I guess. 105 00:06:00,684 --> 00:06:04,004 I think it's the intent is to move beyond alpha into global. 106 00:06:04,025 --> 00:06:07,974 Cause the other, the other alphas weren't quite all global on all the themes. 107 00:06:08,184 --> 00:06:08,504 So, 108 00:06:09,695 --> 00:06:13,015 so, but it's, it's another one, if you're looking at their data sets. 109 00:06:13,715 --> 00:06:17,994 This one is one that you can, and, you know, whenever we talk about arbitrage 110 00:06:17,994 --> 00:06:19,775 maps data, it's been available. 111 00:06:19,775 --> 00:06:22,254 You've been able to use it, but, you know, they did have that 112 00:06:22,255 --> 00:06:24,244 caveat of it's not finalized data. 113 00:06:24,244 --> 00:06:25,385 Now they've moved on. 114 00:06:25,424 --> 00:06:27,005 People have used it enough. 115 00:06:27,045 --> 00:06:29,145 They've fact checked it enough. 116 00:06:29,204 --> 00:06:29,985 That's not the right word. 117 00:06:30,295 --> 00:06:31,164 They've QC'd it enough. 118 00:06:31,174 --> 00:06:31,724 There we go. 119 00:06:31,795 --> 00:06:35,234 So used to hearing fact checked in the news these days. 120 00:06:36,285 --> 00:06:39,705 It just stuck in my head, but it's now been QC to the appropriate level 121 00:06:39,705 --> 00:06:42,345 that they're comfortable putting it out as general availability. 122 00:06:42,345 --> 00:06:46,975 And again it's made available through overture maps, but there's so many 123 00:06:47,485 --> 00:06:52,445 organizations who are feeding into this both open source and for profit. 124 00:06:52,860 --> 00:06:57,700 Organizations that are feeding into the data because they want their goal is 125 00:06:57,700 --> 00:07:04,530 to have a shareable kind of consistent data set that everybody can use if they 126 00:07:04,530 --> 00:07:09,190 choose to for commercial products for their day to day use, whatever it is. 127 00:07:10,775 --> 00:07:16,015 Yeah, really cool thing is that one of the layer themes is buildings, and it's 2. 128 00:07:16,015 --> 00:07:17,134 3 unique built 2. 129 00:07:17,135 --> 00:07:20,455 3 billion unique building footprints worldwide. 130 00:07:20,865 --> 00:07:24,495 But it's what's already in beings and Esri's living Atlas. 131 00:07:24,515 --> 00:07:27,455 So if you like that data, you can just now get that data. 132 00:07:27,505 --> 00:07:29,955 That's pretty cool without having necessarily be a 133 00:07:30,375 --> 00:07:31,965 Microsoft or an Esri customer. 134 00:07:32,515 --> 00:07:34,575 Moving on to some drone news. 135 00:07:34,655 --> 00:07:38,475 The Beyond Visual Line of Sight rules are coming. 136 00:07:38,725 --> 00:07:39,515 That's kind of it. 137 00:07:39,875 --> 00:07:41,595 There's not a lot of details yet. 138 00:07:41,625 --> 00:07:46,305 Basically as part of the reauthorization that just took place for the FAA it 139 00:07:46,305 --> 00:07:51,935 was mandated that within I don't know, 6 months or so that the FAA had to put 140 00:07:51,935 --> 00:07:57,075 into place initial guidelines for beyond visual line of sight, you know, more 141 00:07:57,075 --> 00:07:58,595 than what they have in place right now. 142 00:07:59,285 --> 00:08:01,245 And so those initial. 143 00:08:01,930 --> 00:08:06,430 Expectations and ideas about what it will be should be out 144 00:08:06,430 --> 00:08:07,590 before the end of the year. 145 00:08:07,620 --> 00:08:13,210 And they're suggesting, or at least one of the upper levels in, in the UAS space 146 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:20,080 at the FAA was saying that, you know, by 2026, these should be going into play. 147 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,240 So if you are someone who's looking at some of the beyond visual line of 148 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:30,770 sight and, you know, for monitoring, for Just mapping in general. 149 00:08:31,180 --> 00:08:36,420 There are use cases for being able to do things where you can't, you 150 00:08:36,420 --> 00:08:41,430 know, necessarily see or have someone in the flight line that can see 151 00:08:41,980 --> 00:08:43,700 the drone while it's going over. 152 00:08:43,700 --> 00:08:46,360 So, you know, looking at things like linear features, such as 153 00:08:46,610 --> 00:08:48,310 utility lines or pipelines. 154 00:08:48,865 --> 00:08:54,095 And using a drone to inspect those, you know, your drone can go 10 155 00:08:54,095 --> 00:08:57,735 kilometers without having too many issues with frequency distortion 156 00:08:58,605 --> 00:09:02,235 and can come back to you right now. 157 00:09:02,245 --> 00:09:06,485 You basically have to drive along with the drone. 158 00:09:06,505 --> 00:09:08,635 So you keep it in sight. 159 00:09:08,735 --> 00:09:09,535 So you have a driver. 160 00:09:09,535 --> 00:09:14,035 You have the pilot and other observers or have different people along the line. 161 00:09:14,035 --> 00:09:15,355 So it's a whole thing right now. 162 00:09:15,745 --> 00:09:19,975 So, you know, for the mapping portions of this you know, there are, you know, 163 00:09:21,435 --> 00:09:23,195 Reasons for beyond visual line of sight. 164 00:09:23,195 --> 00:09:25,765 Of course, most of this is for the People who want to 165 00:09:25,765 --> 00:09:27,095 deliver packages, but whatever. 166 00:09:27,545 --> 00:09:34,235 I think that what's interesting about the the news is how much there is mention of, 167 00:09:34,245 --> 00:09:38,735 it's so surprising that the implementation is happening along the timeline they set. 168 00:09:39,405 --> 00:09:45,095 That that was the unusual thing that this is, you know, go, proceeding is planned. 169 00:09:46,045 --> 00:09:50,605 I mean, if it's, if it's in the, the legislation, that's what they got to do. 170 00:09:51,205 --> 00:09:51,675 That's what they did. 171 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:52,950 Last round. 172 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:58,500 So it's how we, we got some of the, the nighttime flying and things 173 00:09:58,500 --> 00:10:01,930 like that, that came through in the last and of course the Licensing 174 00:10:01,940 --> 00:10:04,040 of, of non commercial pilots. 175 00:10:04,070 --> 00:10:06,940 That was also part of the last reauthorization bill. 176 00:10:07,710 --> 00:10:08,380 And then 177 00:10:09,795 --> 00:10:14,335 So University of Maryland has created what they're calling a 178 00:10:14,335 --> 00:10:16,315 topography of the news ecosystem. 179 00:10:16,735 --> 00:10:22,925 And there is a lot of convergence a lot of times between the media and 180 00:10:22,935 --> 00:10:25,725 mapping especially in recent years. 181 00:10:25,765 --> 00:10:28,155 And this is looking at scale. 182 00:10:28,165 --> 00:10:30,255 They don't use the term scale in here. 183 00:10:30,625 --> 00:10:36,630 But what they've done is the first of its kind look at, at the scale of the state. 184 00:10:36,670 --> 00:10:41,180 So instead of looking at news deserts in across the US, they're 185 00:10:41,180 --> 00:10:47,490 looking at a very, very at a scale of what's happening in the local news. 186 00:10:47,860 --> 00:10:49,910 And let's look at how this is spread. 187 00:10:49,910 --> 00:10:54,240 The local news is spread and where those dead spots are and where are parts of 188 00:10:54,260 --> 00:10:55,750 the states that are getting coverage. 189 00:10:55,780 --> 00:10:59,220 So it's really interesting what they're doing because it is 190 00:10:59,300 --> 00:11:02,220 taking a look at local news. 191 00:11:02,455 --> 00:11:04,145 at a very local level. 192 00:11:04,365 --> 00:11:08,935 And what they're trying to do is create a framework for these news ecosystems. 193 00:11:10,475 --> 00:11:10,675 Right. 194 00:11:10,675 --> 00:11:14,555 And I think this is a really important and really interesting study in the 195 00:11:14,555 --> 00:11:18,725 United States because coming from a small area, I can say that I've seen 196 00:11:18,735 --> 00:11:22,205 even just monitoring, I've moved away from my hometown for a long time ago, 197 00:11:22,205 --> 00:11:26,155 but to see kind of the changing landscape there of local newspaper, what was 198 00:11:26,185 --> 00:11:30,345 local newspapers first and what you have is kind of a, a local TV market. 199 00:11:30,345 --> 00:11:36,395 But these types of news sources that you know, allow people to see kind of not 200 00:11:36,395 --> 00:11:39,955 just the events in their area, but how they maybe relate to what's going on at 201 00:11:39,985 --> 00:11:42,255 other scales I think are really important. 202 00:11:42,285 --> 00:11:43,685 And when they go away. 203 00:11:44,205 --> 00:11:44,565 Right. 204 00:11:44,575 --> 00:11:47,715 That connection that you have with what's happening in the news, I think 205 00:11:48,125 --> 00:11:49,605 you know, starts to erode a little bit. 206 00:11:49,615 --> 00:11:53,175 So I think this is a really interesting study to like take a look at. 207 00:11:53,185 --> 00:11:55,245 And like you say, Barb, it's that conversion kind of of how 208 00:11:55,245 --> 00:11:57,285 we see things across space. 209 00:11:57,575 --> 00:11:59,495 But you know, look at those different scales. 210 00:11:59,505 --> 00:12:02,865 So I noted, I think I noted in the the news article that we were looking 211 00:12:02,865 --> 00:12:06,155 at that they're actually going to make this structure available to 212 00:12:06,155 --> 00:12:08,775 other universities if they want to do a similar type of study. 213 00:12:09,230 --> 00:12:09,420 Yeah. 214 00:12:09,420 --> 00:12:13,270 The interesting thing here is, is the, it would be neat to overlay this with 215 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,040 other, they don't, I don't think they use the term deserts, but really you're 216 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,680 talking about somewhat news deserts when you're talking with a local, it'd be 217 00:12:19,680 --> 00:12:23,790 interesting to overlay that with common rural deserts, like food deserts and 218 00:12:23,870 --> 00:12:25,730 healthcare deserts and education deserts. 219 00:12:26,310 --> 00:12:29,110 You know, I obviously, I think it's going to be fairly obvious that we see 220 00:12:29,110 --> 00:12:33,060 a lot of overlap, but it'd be kind of interesting to do that to see what degree. 221 00:12:33,980 --> 00:12:35,110 And that's it for the news. 222 00:12:35,660 --> 00:12:36,030 You know. 223 00:12:36,805 --> 00:12:40,425 This is 2024 and 2004. 224 00:12:40,435 --> 00:12:44,155 A number of things began podcasting first began about this time of year. 225 00:12:44,175 --> 00:12:45,975 With, well, what was his name? 226 00:12:45,975 --> 00:12:47,715 He was an MTV. 227 00:12:48,415 --> 00:12:49,645 vj, the blonde guy. 228 00:12:49,645 --> 00:12:51,025 Mark, mark something. 229 00:12:51,295 --> 00:12:51,475 Yeah. 230 00:12:51,535 --> 00:12:52,320 I can't think of his name right. 231 00:12:52,325 --> 00:12:52,675 The guy. 232 00:12:52,675 --> 00:12:53,335 Go look it up. 233 00:12:53,335 --> 00:12:56,015 On, in Wikipedia, you'll figure out those of you who are old enough 234 00:12:56,015 --> 00:12:57,330 to remember the beginning of vv, 235 00:12:57,330 --> 00:12:58,805 there are others, others of all too, so, yeah. 236 00:12:58,925 --> 00:12:59,135 Well, 237 00:12:59,135 --> 00:13:03,395 he was kind of the first one who used RSS to push out audio files. 238 00:13:03,395 --> 00:13:06,815 And then a lot of people within the next month or two were 239 00:13:06,815 --> 00:13:07,835 like, that's a great idea. 240 00:13:07,835 --> 00:13:08,855 And started doing it as well. 241 00:13:08,855 --> 00:13:13,595 And then by 2025, of course we had the, the first wave of podcasting. 242 00:13:15,140 --> 00:13:16,550 I could see his, I could see him too. 243 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:18,710 20, 2005, not 2025. 244 00:13:18,710 --> 00:13:20,300 Adam 245 00:13:20,300 --> 00:13:20,880 Curry. 246 00:13:21,050 --> 00:13:22,580 Why did I tell Mark is the other one? 247 00:13:22,830 --> 00:13:24,880 Mark is the black curly hair, isn't he? 248 00:13:24,990 --> 00:13:25,500 Isn't that Mark? 249 00:13:25,580 --> 00:13:26,260 I don't remember anymore, 250 00:13:26,460 --> 00:13:26,490 but 251 00:13:26,490 --> 00:13:31,080 yes, Adam Curry was the one with the big flowing locks and all 252 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,940 that was his big thing in the day. 253 00:13:34,300 --> 00:13:37,150 I don't know where I was going with the Adam Curry thing, but so yeah, yeah. 254 00:13:38,180 --> 00:13:40,100 That started at that time. 255 00:13:40,190 --> 00:13:42,460 We saw the transition of course, of 256 00:13:44,790 --> 00:13:48,830 keyhole to being bought by Google. 257 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,130 And the introduction of a lot of those technologies, of course, of course first, 258 00:13:53,140 --> 00:13:58,450 of course, you have in 2004, the rollout of Google maps as a separate product. 259 00:13:58,450 --> 00:14:02,710 And then of course, the introduction of Google earth and that's kind of, I think 260 00:14:02,940 --> 00:14:04,480 that happened more in the transition. 261 00:14:05,310 --> 00:14:05,590 Yeah. 262 00:14:06,100 --> 00:14:07,430 So that was more of the transition. 263 00:14:07,910 --> 00:14:11,360 But all of these things were happening at this time as well. 264 00:14:11,550 --> 00:14:18,260 So we began to see more open open source software coming out for mapping. 265 00:14:18,890 --> 00:14:26,210 We saw more companies getting into mapping and we saw a larger attempt 266 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:31,480 to create open data sets because places like the UK were still 267 00:14:31,490 --> 00:14:33,870 charging for the ordnance survey data. 268 00:14:34,460 --> 00:14:38,650 And so for people to be able to actually use GIS data. 269 00:14:39,620 --> 00:14:42,990 For the UK, they were like, Well, I guess we have to create it instead of 270 00:14:42,990 --> 00:14:45,430 spending millions of millions of pounds. 271 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:45,820 Sorry. 272 00:14:45,870 --> 00:14:48,020 I'm gonna use the wrong monetary in 273 00:14:48,020 --> 00:14:48,150 it. 274 00:14:48,810 --> 00:14:48,990 They could have done 275 00:14:48,990 --> 00:14:51,050 in dollars, but there's an exchange rate problem. 276 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:52,020 Yeah. 277 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:54,400 To the to the ordnance survey. 278 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:58,515 And so, Hence was born the open project, open stream. 279 00:14:59,435 --> 00:15:03,585 Well, I think to add in that, that another, another really important thing 280 00:15:03,585 --> 00:15:07,305 or other important things that are going on at this time was the rise of high speed 281 00:15:07,305 --> 00:15:08,925 internet, because that's the thing, right. 282 00:15:08,925 --> 00:15:12,665 Is that one of the things that drove this was people could access it because 283 00:15:12,855 --> 00:15:19,385 GIS will remember that there was online map sharing, but very few people could 284 00:15:19,385 --> 00:15:20,735 take advantage of it because of the. 285 00:15:21,115 --> 00:15:24,975 hardware requirements or the, you know, network requirements and 286 00:15:24,975 --> 00:15:26,495 then the development of web 2. 287 00:15:26,495 --> 00:15:28,825 0 that allows stuff to pass quickly, right? 288 00:15:28,825 --> 00:15:33,375 So all those things are converging around the same time in this, this mid 2000s. 289 00:15:33,835 --> 00:15:37,065 But those are the things I remember because I remember, for example, and 290 00:15:37,185 --> 00:15:40,735 those of you who are ancient in GIS like us will remember things like the early 291 00:15:40,745 --> 00:15:45,565 versions of ArcIMS and things like that, which if you had the connection but most 292 00:15:45,565 --> 00:15:47,005 people just couldn't access those things. 293 00:15:47,015 --> 00:15:51,250 So once you had High speed internet available to more people 294 00:15:51,290 --> 00:15:53,370 and you had now with the web 2. 295 00:15:53,370 --> 00:15:59,440 0 technologies that for on the podcasting side and on other types of technologies 296 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:03,950 where now you can pass things back and forth much quicker and do more things. 297 00:16:04,355 --> 00:16:07,465 Then you start to see this and, and that, but that was when people 298 00:16:07,465 --> 00:16:11,265 realized, wow if we want to do something like this a lot of the data isn't 299 00:16:11,305 --> 00:16:12,915 available for us to do ourselves. 300 00:16:13,205 --> 00:16:16,205 And for the mapping portion of it, perhaps for me, the most important 301 00:16:16,205 --> 00:16:21,165 part was at that point, you no longer had to have a download. 302 00:16:21,825 --> 00:16:24,635 You didn't have to download an extension for your browser to 303 00:16:24,635 --> 00:16:26,415 be able to run the software. 304 00:16:26,415 --> 00:16:29,115 And we were talking about it with burn with silver light and things like that. 305 00:16:29,805 --> 00:16:37,515 But just the, the XAML, the Javascript and XML core of Web 2. 306 00:16:37,515 --> 00:16:38,434 0. 307 00:16:38,435 --> 00:16:39,035 AJAX. 308 00:16:39,065 --> 00:16:39,455 Yes. 309 00:16:39,495 --> 00:16:39,895 Thank you. 310 00:16:40,195 --> 00:16:40,605 Asynchronous. 311 00:16:40,675 --> 00:16:41,575 Asynchronous. 312 00:16:41,585 --> 00:16:43,415 That was the, that was the hot word at the time. 313 00:16:43,465 --> 00:16:43,975 Yeah. 314 00:16:44,135 --> 00:16:47,345 AJAX is It was asynchronous JavaScript and XML. 315 00:16:47,435 --> 00:16:47,705 These. 316 00:16:47,705 --> 00:16:48,125 Thank you. 317 00:16:48,975 --> 00:16:50,835 We, it's, it's, it's everything. 318 00:16:50,865 --> 00:16:53,685 I mean everything in the web now is basically Ajax. 319 00:16:53,685 --> 00:16:57,495 We just won't call it that anymore because at the time we talk about 320 00:16:57,495 --> 00:16:59,955 silver light, 'cause it didn't wanna remember, but Adobe had one 321 00:16:59,955 --> 00:17:02,415 too that was arguably more popular. 322 00:17:02,415 --> 00:17:04,965 Yet I cannot for life of remember its name even though I developed 323 00:17:04,965 --> 00:17:05,925 in it for like two years. 324 00:17:06,465 --> 00:17:06,527 You mean flash? 325 00:17:06,532 --> 00:17:06,660 Mean? 326 00:17:06,660 --> 00:17:08,325 We had Flash, but there was another one as well. 327 00:17:08,330 --> 00:17:08,820 Oh no, there was the thing. 328 00:17:08,820 --> 00:17:09,300 Oh, the other one. 329 00:17:09,300 --> 00:17:09,500 Okay. 330 00:17:09,975 --> 00:17:11,295 The thing was built on flash. 331 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,380 Flash was built on a bit of technology that's like Silverlight. 332 00:17:16,410 --> 00:17:18,490 And I cannot for life remember what brief. 333 00:17:18,965 --> 00:17:20,125 Reflex, something like that. 334 00:17:20,145 --> 00:17:20,825 Something like that. 335 00:17:20,895 --> 00:17:21,745 I can't remember what it's called. 336 00:17:21,755 --> 00:17:22,305 It doesn't matter. 337 00:17:22,315 --> 00:17:25,715 It's a historical thing that nobody uses anymore and it's gone away, but 338 00:17:25,755 --> 00:17:29,145 it required the flash plugin to run. 339 00:17:29,405 --> 00:17:32,104 Silverlight was built in Microsoft. 340 00:17:32,655 --> 00:17:33,645 It was Microsoft solution. 341 00:17:33,645 --> 00:17:38,095 I think it was built into one of the updates to IE Internet 342 00:17:38,095 --> 00:17:41,655 Explorer, or like if you downloaded. 343 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:42,690 Not. 344 00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:43,980 net because of predated. 345 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,730 net, but one of those things that you up, you downloaded, it kind of 346 00:17:47,730 --> 00:17:49,190 just stuck it in there automatically. 347 00:17:49,230 --> 00:17:53,560 And for a long time, those, it was really to get to date ourselves even further, 348 00:17:54,460 --> 00:17:57,680 it was really the Blu ray HD DVD. 349 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,500 Nobody knows what's going to come out on top thing that was happening. 350 00:18:01,570 --> 00:18:02,524 Let's go even older. 351 00:18:03,155 --> 00:18:03,665 It was the 352 00:18:03,705 --> 00:18:05,215 VHS Betamax. 353 00:18:05,585 --> 00:18:06,555 I wasn't going to go that long. 354 00:18:07,605 --> 00:18:12,775 I feel that more people remember VHS Betamax than the very small blip. 355 00:18:12,935 --> 00:18:14,845 It was the Zune iPod. 356 00:18:16,045 --> 00:18:16,871 Don't hate on me, Zune. 357 00:18:16,871 --> 00:18:17,855 I still have one. 358 00:18:17,945 --> 00:18:19,854 I mentioned Zune first. 359 00:18:19,855 --> 00:18:20,955 I mean, 360 00:18:20,955 --> 00:18:25,295 I, But the point is, is that it was a three way race that 361 00:18:25,295 --> 00:18:26,555 was going on at the time. 362 00:18:26,585 --> 00:18:30,865 And honestly, Ajax didn't, wasn't the silver bullet there. 363 00:18:30,895 --> 00:18:33,145 It was harder to develop in. 364 00:18:33,905 --> 00:18:39,415 And there was a lot less standards and you could do anything, which was 365 00:18:39,465 --> 00:18:43,455 the reason at one because you could do anything and like, there was nothing 366 00:18:43,455 --> 00:18:44,845 that would say, no, you can't do that. 367 00:18:44,845 --> 00:18:48,035 Whereas the other 2 had very well developed software packages and 368 00:18:48,035 --> 00:18:51,775 software principles that said, no, that's not a good idea. 369 00:18:51,955 --> 00:18:53,295 I'm not gonna allow you to do those things. 370 00:18:54,085 --> 00:18:58,345 So the fact that it would run natively in the browser was a big help because 371 00:18:58,345 --> 00:18:59,825 nobody had to download anything. 372 00:18:59,875 --> 00:19:01,765 Not that it was a big deal because a lot of times people 373 00:19:01,765 --> 00:19:02,845 were downloading it anyway. 374 00:19:02,925 --> 00:19:03,855 So it wasn't. 375 00:19:03,865 --> 00:19:03,885 Yeah. 376 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:06,450 It tended to exist everywhere. 377 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:07,440 And then it annoyed me. 378 00:19:07,770 --> 00:19:09,870 I didn't like, I didn't like to have to do the downloads. 379 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,350 Well, there were, there were people who balked, but for the most part, 380 00:19:13,350 --> 00:19:14,610 it tended to exist everywhere. 381 00:19:14,870 --> 00:19:19,130 And then one of the challenges was one of the browsers, I, I don't think it 382 00:19:19,130 --> 00:19:24,710 was Chrome, I think it was Firefox, one of them said, this is a problem. 383 00:19:25,305 --> 00:19:30,545 This is like a massive security hole, and it could, you know, cause the 384 00:19:30,545 --> 00:19:34,835 queen to lose the war and make you get scurvy and all sorts of terrible 385 00:19:34,835 --> 00:19:35,955 things that would say it would do. 386 00:19:36,315 --> 00:19:40,145 And you would go, Oh, I shouldn't do that because I can very clearly remember a 387 00:19:40,145 --> 00:19:43,015 conversation with my parents that they were like, we went to this website and 388 00:19:43,025 --> 00:19:44,615 they wanted to download this flash thing. 389 00:19:44,625 --> 00:19:47,205 And I don't think that's a good idea because I saw in the news and 390 00:19:47,205 --> 00:19:48,615 I was like, okay, this is turned. 391 00:19:49,115 --> 00:19:51,245 This is when this has turned that. 392 00:19:51,740 --> 00:19:54,060 Okay, download these plug in things isn't going to work. 393 00:19:54,060 --> 00:19:56,410 So more so much for a development suite. 394 00:19:56,430 --> 00:19:58,880 So that's really when Ajax exploded. 395 00:19:59,330 --> 00:20:02,260 And furthermore, the other big thing that really made a positive 396 00:20:02,260 --> 00:20:05,220 difference to Ajax is that it was free and anybody could get it. 397 00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:07,710 Whereas the other ones were Harder. 398 00:20:08,060 --> 00:20:11,650 You could do it using text editors, and you could do it using 399 00:20:12,210 --> 00:20:15,610 compilers that you could download for free, but it was a nightmare. 400 00:20:15,900 --> 00:20:19,700 Whereas with Ajax, you just did it in text editor and hit refresh on 401 00:20:19,700 --> 00:20:22,500 your browser, and you knew whether or not things were working or not. 402 00:20:22,530 --> 00:20:23,930 It was a very quick development. 403 00:20:24,239 --> 00:20:28,080 And that's why a bazillion kids got out there and started doing everything. 404 00:20:28,785 --> 00:20:30,275 And that's where it really exploded. 405 00:20:30,285 --> 00:20:36,765 And you can see why keyhole and then Google sort of developed on that platform. 406 00:20:36,765 --> 00:20:42,135 Primarily, this gave us you know, our entree into what would be the next 407 00:20:42,135 --> 00:20:45,945 20 years of technologies and data. 408 00:20:45,945 --> 00:20:46,545 Yeah. 409 00:20:48,425 --> 00:20:50,315 Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, I think because I think it's an 410 00:20:50,315 --> 00:20:51,265 interesting question, right? 411 00:20:51,265 --> 00:20:56,615 Because prior, again, I'll go back to, I think I mentioned it right prior to 412 00:20:56,625 --> 00:21:00,725 when all this technology kind of exploded at the same time there were segments 413 00:21:00,725 --> 00:21:05,805 that that knew that that geospatial data was being collected and used it. 414 00:21:06,185 --> 00:21:10,995 But yeah, Kind of the push to say that more people should have access to that. 415 00:21:11,445 --> 00:21:15,475 I think, I think, and, and, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, like in the 416 00:21:15,485 --> 00:21:19,475 timing of it, but I think awareness was a big part of what drove that. 417 00:21:19,915 --> 00:21:20,225 Right. 418 00:21:20,225 --> 00:21:24,435 Is that you see people using it and then they're like, oh, but you can't yet. 419 00:21:24,955 --> 00:21:26,305 And then you're like, well, why not? 420 00:21:26,655 --> 00:21:29,415 And they say, well, you got to pay for it or it's government 421 00:21:29,425 --> 00:21:31,005 restricted or something like that. 422 00:21:31,005 --> 00:21:35,335 And, and I don't, and it wasn't just in the mapping sphere that this happened, but 423 00:21:35,335 --> 00:21:36,815 I think that that was a big push, right? 424 00:21:36,815 --> 00:21:41,125 You didn't know to, to try to access it or to ask for it until 425 00:21:41,125 --> 00:21:43,540 you knew that it was out there. 426 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:44,510 And that was really cool. 427 00:21:44,510 --> 00:21:44,740 Right? 428 00:21:44,740 --> 00:21:48,970 So that's the Google maps push is like, this stuff is really cool, but 429 00:21:49,330 --> 00:21:54,410 yeah, there were professional sites that had access to all the imagery in the 430 00:21:54,410 --> 00:21:57,220 United States for people to go find their house and the rest of the world as well. 431 00:21:58,010 --> 00:22:04,290 But it was Google and it being a place people were going to more and more anyway. 432 00:22:04,290 --> 00:22:08,270 And suddenly there you could go and not have to download anything and just go to 433 00:22:08,270 --> 00:22:10,190 a site and be able to find your house. 434 00:22:11,140 --> 00:22:12,490 That was so powerful. 435 00:22:14,335 --> 00:22:17,625 Yeah, and this is the time period when you're thinking about Google, 436 00:22:17,655 --> 00:22:21,345 and it's a term you don't hear as much anymore, but the neo geography 437 00:22:21,345 --> 00:22:25,305 where, you know, people are out there using this that aren't professionals. 438 00:22:25,305 --> 00:22:29,094 But I remember at this time period this is where you hear a lot, like Sue 439 00:22:29,125 --> 00:22:35,585 said, of who has access and who can do things with it and who controls it. 440 00:22:35,595 --> 00:22:38,525 But the, the beginnings of talking about what's a gratuitous use. 441 00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:42,050 Because a lot of people saw it and were like, there are 442 00:22:42,050 --> 00:22:43,310 things I want to do with it. 443 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,030 But they didn't have the ability to access and do something with it. 444 00:22:48,699 --> 00:22:52,690 But like Frank said, you know, you had a whole bunch of especially young 445 00:22:52,690 --> 00:22:59,900 people who now had access to all the data and to the technology to do 446 00:22:59,900 --> 00:23:04,510 something and to make something and to see something that they imagined in 447 00:23:04,510 --> 00:23:06,549 their heads was missing in the world. 448 00:23:07,650 --> 00:23:08,310 I'm going to make a bit of. 449 00:23:09,125 --> 00:23:14,435 Radical assertion, but I can't defend I have, this is my opinion feeling. 450 00:23:15,445 --> 00:23:19,014 So I remember very clearly working at the technical center before 451 00:23:19,014 --> 00:23:22,215 9 11, and we had a data set out. 452 00:23:22,325 --> 00:23:25,285 That was the oil and gas pipelines in West Virginia. 453 00:23:25,325 --> 00:23:26,635 And it was just public data. 454 00:23:26,894 --> 00:23:27,584 Anybody can get to it. 455 00:23:28,285 --> 00:23:29,785 Download it was there. 456 00:23:30,215 --> 00:23:31,985 It was in the topo sheets. 457 00:23:32,025 --> 00:23:35,575 That's why we had it is because we made a digital line conversion of all the topo 458 00:23:35,575 --> 00:23:37,005 sheets and that's where it came from. 459 00:23:37,005 --> 00:23:40,345 And then we got an update from, I think the geological survey gave us an update. 460 00:23:41,115 --> 00:23:46,124 And then I think it was Homeland Security called us October, November 461 00:23:46,975 --> 00:23:49,004 2001 and said, why is that on there? 462 00:23:49,325 --> 00:23:50,625 What the hell is that doing there? 463 00:23:50,815 --> 00:23:56,089 You have to get that rid of that because of security issues after 9 11. 464 00:23:56,730 --> 00:24:01,180 There was a lot of data that was pulled that was, was publicly available. 465 00:24:01,220 --> 00:24:01,950 It was annoying. 466 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,590 You had to go to every damn state individually, and some of them had a bunch 467 00:24:05,590 --> 00:24:06,829 of stuff and some of them had nothing. 468 00:24:06,830 --> 00:24:08,850 And it was minimally irritating. 469 00:24:09,509 --> 00:24:12,080 I actually think that that desire need. 470 00:24:12,650 --> 00:24:17,540 Whatever word you want to use to hide data for several years, help fuel this 471 00:24:17,550 --> 00:24:22,830 more open street map approach, not open treatment itself, but its approach of we 472 00:24:22,830 --> 00:24:26,620 need to get our own publicly available data out there that isn't controlled. 473 00:24:26,990 --> 00:24:30,540 Necessarily by a government agency that can say, no, that's no longer. 474 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,990 Information you can know, I think that really gave a lot of people an impetus 475 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,880 to say, I want to make sure I have a data set that I can always access. 476 00:24:40,100 --> 00:24:44,719 Well, I think that helped spur it in places like the United States. 477 00:24:44,780 --> 00:24:47,799 But again, just the lack of access. 478 00:24:48,445 --> 00:24:53,705 Even to what, you know, we take a lot for granted the United States because because 479 00:24:53,725 --> 00:24:57,435 of the way things are set up, whenever we pay taxes, anything created with our 480 00:24:57,435 --> 00:25:02,814 tax dollars should be unless there's some reason such as that to keep that data. 481 00:25:04,335 --> 00:25:08,905 In a closed off area, then everything else should be available to us. 482 00:25:09,865 --> 00:25:11,465 And we just take that for granted. 483 00:25:11,465 --> 00:25:14,495 And for so long, there were a lot of other countries, especially those that 484 00:25:14,495 --> 00:25:17,955 were under the British crown and such. 485 00:25:18,395 --> 00:25:21,565 They didn't have that because the data was the Queens. 486 00:25:22,855 --> 00:25:24,084 And so if you wanted to. 487 00:25:24,705 --> 00:25:28,235 You know, the permission and privilege to be able to use that data, you 488 00:25:28,235 --> 00:25:33,165 had to pay the queen for it because she had collected that data, not to 489 00:25:33,165 --> 00:25:35,614 the people and it was stupid expensive. 490 00:25:35,615 --> 00:25:38,675 I remember at the time, quote, they're like, yeah, I just want to cover. 491 00:25:38,695 --> 00:25:40,235 I want to say, I want to say like Edinburgh. 492 00:25:40,235 --> 00:25:44,115 It was a city and it was like thousands and thousands of pounds. 493 00:25:44,145 --> 00:25:44,595 I was like, who 494 00:25:44,604 --> 00:25:45,905 the hell can do that? 495 00:25:46,805 --> 00:25:51,255 And at the time, you know, this is where I remember, you know, I wasn't even yeah. 496 00:25:51,420 --> 00:25:53,080 Really adjacent to G. 497 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:53,200 I. 498 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:53,380 S. 499 00:25:53,380 --> 00:25:57,690 yet, but working with research companies that work with technology 500 00:25:57,700 --> 00:26:01,720 that were the early days of drones and things like that, where they had the 501 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:03,880 technology, but they needed the data. 502 00:26:04,210 --> 00:26:05,490 But yet they couldn't. 503 00:26:05,860 --> 00:26:11,900 Afford or get the location based data they needed to basically keep moving 504 00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:17,400 forward with the ideas and they had they had in their head for these type 505 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,809 of technologies that we would know, you know, later on and be very familiar with. 506 00:26:22,300 --> 00:26:27,740 So that was also coming from outside the geospatial realm and, you know, not just 507 00:26:27,810 --> 00:26:32,870 individuals, but to small companies that were growing at the time and probably 508 00:26:32,870 --> 00:26:36,600 a large, a lot of larger companies that were outside the, that realm. 509 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:42,710 And so that swung the door open for the, the need and people to start doing it. 510 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,010 Well, yeah, the need and also again, seeing examples of, of that 511 00:26:47,010 --> 00:26:48,640 and people, I think that's it. 512 00:26:49,255 --> 00:26:52,585 how quickly it grew just so the people did want to contribute because a lot of 513 00:26:52,585 --> 00:26:56,905 the idea behind having that data available is not, is not just the, I can find my 514 00:26:56,905 --> 00:27:02,585 house, but also look at all of the, the problems that we can address by seeing 515 00:27:02,915 --> 00:27:04,495 conditions, right, that are spatial. 516 00:27:04,495 --> 00:27:07,865 And also, I think one of the things that was learned too in these early days is if 517 00:27:07,865 --> 00:27:12,655 you had to rely on government data sets, those were data, data, which we now all 518 00:27:12,655 --> 00:27:15,805 know to call them data layers, right, that were collected for specific purposes. 519 00:27:16,385 --> 00:27:20,970 So, If you want something, so in addition to that, right, having that some kind 520 00:27:20,970 --> 00:27:24,790 of authoritative thing of what's on the surface of the earth, you, if you want 521 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,769 other things you either have to find somebody who's collected them and we'll 522 00:27:29,169 --> 00:27:31,529 sell them to you or give them to you, or you have to collect them yourself. 523 00:27:31,529 --> 00:27:35,229 And so that was another thing that came out too, is, is look 524 00:27:35,229 --> 00:27:36,569 at all the things we can collect. 525 00:27:36,879 --> 00:27:40,339 But we do need these, these base layers to help make that happen. 526 00:27:42,439 --> 00:27:45,039 And of course being able to have the technology in the background, right? 527 00:27:45,474 --> 00:27:48,254 Kind of takes us back to where we were talking about having the ability to 528 00:27:48,264 --> 00:27:52,484 do these things in a web editor which was basically a wiki style event. 529 00:27:52,954 --> 00:27:54,124 Provide a lot of opportunity, 530 00:27:55,704 --> 00:27:59,964 I think two seminal events really exploded the use of this data and the public 531 00:27:59,974 --> 00:28:02,794 consciousness because all this stuff that we're talking about, like getting data 532 00:28:02,794 --> 00:28:07,644 and all that stuff is just map nerds doing map nerd stuff, know anything about it. 533 00:28:07,694 --> 00:28:08,884 I did say I was gonna say 2 things. 534 00:28:08,884 --> 00:28:12,184 The 2nd thing I was going to point out is that actually in the beginning, you did 535 00:28:12,194 --> 00:28:15,354 have to download something else to get a lot of this data or this information. 536 00:28:15,829 --> 00:28:18,229 If you're just a general public, and that was Google earth, which was 537 00:28:18,229 --> 00:28:22,219 its own is still is, I think, but it was basically its own standalone 538 00:28:22,229 --> 00:28:25,059 thing that was for other data, not specifically for open stream app. 539 00:28:25,059 --> 00:28:27,239 That was web based and download, right? 540 00:28:27,719 --> 00:28:32,169 But I'm just saying is that as the public started, you know, getting this 541 00:28:32,189 --> 00:28:36,619 AJAX generated data, you did download a standalone application that eventually 542 00:28:36,619 --> 00:28:38,189 got folded into the browser anyway. 543 00:28:38,189 --> 00:28:39,739 And Google Maps was AJAX! 544 00:28:41,059 --> 00:28:42,749 I don't want to use the word lesser, but that's the word I'm going to 545 00:28:42,749 --> 00:28:44,959 use lesser version of the two. 546 00:28:44,959 --> 00:28:46,519 It just had less data and functionality. 547 00:28:46,519 --> 00:28:49,949 And then it turns out most people really just needed Google maps most of the time. 548 00:28:49,949 --> 00:28:53,079 So that's kind of how that evolved. 549 00:28:53,859 --> 00:28:59,079 But I think two similar events really pushed the utility 550 00:28:59,119 --> 00:29:01,049 of mapping to the public. 551 00:29:01,119 --> 00:29:03,989 And all the while in the background, we're using Google maps to try to 552 00:29:03,989 --> 00:29:05,909 figure out how in the hell to get to. 553 00:29:06,324 --> 00:29:08,994 A city I've never been to and all these things because map quest, 554 00:29:10,104 --> 00:29:14,424 which existed from, I don't know, 96, seven, six, something like, yeah. 555 00:29:14,474 --> 00:29:18,364 So it was, you know, kind of clunky and weird compared to Google maps. 556 00:29:19,344 --> 00:29:25,904 The 2007, I think wildfires in California around the San Diego area 557 00:29:27,314 --> 00:29:29,454 really pushed the utility of mapping. 558 00:29:29,454 --> 00:29:32,924 Because what happened was, is that we were, you, the people were using a lot 559 00:29:32,954 --> 00:29:39,409 of social media to say, Communicate information much quicker than governments 560 00:29:39,409 --> 00:29:43,039 could communicate information and say, what this shelter is closed. 561 00:29:43,269 --> 00:29:46,199 This is Iran or this fires are spread here and that sort of thing. 562 00:29:46,199 --> 00:29:49,719 And it was going into tweets and tweets were then being mapped by news agencies 563 00:29:49,989 --> 00:29:53,899 and people could pull up a map and figure out, oh, where can I go in this crisis? 564 00:29:55,069 --> 00:29:59,919 And I really think that that was kind of a culmination event, all that kind of 565 00:29:59,919 --> 00:30:01,429 stuff had been happening up to that point. 566 00:30:01,429 --> 00:30:05,679 But at that point, people started realizing that there's broader utility 567 00:30:05,679 --> 00:30:07,639 here that we can use it for a lot more. 568 00:30:07,979 --> 00:30:11,079 And by people, I mean, the general public, not map nerds. 569 00:30:11,079 --> 00:30:11,789 We knew it for a while. 570 00:30:12,269 --> 00:30:18,579 The 2nd big event, I think, was the 2010 Haiti earthquake, where Literally 571 00:30:18,629 --> 00:30:23,969 and this directly impacted open street maps, like the day before the earthquake. 572 00:30:23,969 --> 00:30:26,089 If you, if you could, I'm sure there's images out there. 573 00:30:26,089 --> 00:30:27,239 You can find on the Internet. 574 00:30:27,259 --> 00:30:31,329 If you look at what was an open street maps for Haiti, a couple 575 00:30:31,329 --> 00:30:34,129 of days before the earthquake, the answer was here is Haiti. 576 00:30:34,159 --> 00:30:35,799 And that's about it. 577 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:36,539 It was a dot. 578 00:30:36,669 --> 00:30:38,279 There's very little information that was in there. 579 00:30:38,649 --> 00:30:41,819 But then this, this catastrophic earthquake happens and, and, 580 00:30:41,819 --> 00:30:46,194 and, Thousands and thousands of people are trapped and killed 581 00:30:46,204 --> 00:30:48,034 and we didn't know anything. 582 00:30:48,064 --> 00:30:51,694 And suddenly the community came together and did this massive map out 583 00:30:51,744 --> 00:30:55,724 of Haiti at a level that, you know, if you look at just a week after the 584 00:30:55,724 --> 00:30:57,374 tragedy, what the data looks like. 585 00:30:57,384 --> 00:31:01,674 And we knew so much more by weaving in the general public knew so much 586 00:31:01,684 --> 00:31:06,524 more than we knew the week before in terms of what was in the map data. 587 00:31:07,184 --> 00:31:12,594 I think that those two events really got people to think about We can use this 588 00:31:12,594 --> 00:31:18,234 stuff beyond just Matt nerds using this stuff again in the public consciousness. 589 00:31:19,284 --> 00:31:22,134 Yeah, I think, and I would add to that on a lesser scale, like, in terms of 590 00:31:22,294 --> 00:31:24,894 of how much Katrina Hurricane Katrina. 591 00:31:25,714 --> 00:31:26,184 Yeah, as 592 00:31:26,414 --> 00:31:26,624 well. 593 00:31:26,724 --> 00:31:29,774 But the technology hadn't quite evolved at that point. 594 00:31:29,794 --> 00:31:30,794 So yeah. 595 00:31:30,794 --> 00:31:37,364 And I think, I think the great thing too, has been that, that those types of, 596 00:31:37,534 --> 00:31:41,374 you know, efforts have been sustained that, you know, now OpenStreetMap 597 00:31:41,374 --> 00:31:44,234 and other, other open source projects like that, you know, a lot of them 598 00:31:44,234 --> 00:31:47,504 are incorporated into things because the recognition of their value. 599 00:31:48,064 --> 00:31:52,354 Because, I mean, A lot of that gets started too with the, we want to make 600 00:31:52,354 --> 00:31:54,934 sure this is available because on the one hand you have the government 601 00:31:54,934 --> 00:31:57,924 sources, but Google maps comes along, but Google is corporate. 602 00:31:57,954 --> 00:31:58,964 So you never know, right. 603 00:31:58,964 --> 00:32:01,374 Access there could also be, be changed. 604 00:32:01,374 --> 00:32:02,054 And the API 605 00:32:02,344 --> 00:32:02,444 key. 606 00:32:03,449 --> 00:32:03,889 What's that? 607 00:32:03,899 --> 00:32:04,754 The joy of the API key. 608 00:32:04,754 --> 00:32:05,299 Yes, the API 609 00:32:05,429 --> 00:32:05,829 key, right? 610 00:32:05,829 --> 00:32:08,539 That little, that little thing that, that you have to have that magic. 611 00:32:08,539 --> 00:32:11,649 So you know, so those are important considerations. 612 00:32:11,649 --> 00:32:14,579 But the interesting thing has been the embracing of those 613 00:32:14,579 --> 00:32:16,149 data layers in turns around. 614 00:32:16,149 --> 00:32:22,419 And, and a whole ecosystem of third parties that utilize the data and they're, 615 00:32:22,420 --> 00:32:26,009 they're Their companies but they're, they're kind of leveraging that as well. 616 00:32:26,019 --> 00:32:30,179 So I mean, that's over the 20 years and, and you know, with the state 617 00:32:30,179 --> 00:32:33,909 of the map conferences the community that that's built around open street 618 00:32:33,929 --> 00:32:36,989 map and, and all of that is, it's just been pretty amazing actually. 619 00:32:38,069 --> 00:32:42,289 And I think that one of the, the visions of open street map that have led to his 620 00:32:42,289 --> 00:32:46,669 longevity is what, Everyone's been talking about is before everyone was sort of 621 00:32:46,669 --> 00:32:54,829 looking at use cases or you know, limited areas but open street map was holistic. 622 00:32:54,839 --> 00:32:58,849 It was interconnected you know, what they were doing was worldwide at the 623 00:32:58,859 --> 00:33:01,829 same time which made it stand out. 624 00:33:02,659 --> 00:33:06,049 You know, I, I also think that people don't realize exactly how disruptive 625 00:33:06,059 --> 00:33:11,499 this was to the mapping world in a negative way to, I can remember 626 00:33:11,499 --> 00:33:16,499 very clearly conversations with I unfortunately didn't have connections 627 00:33:16,599 --> 00:33:19,049 to the legislators, but people who did. 628 00:33:20,164 --> 00:33:24,464 And what the legislatures were saying in the states were, why should I 629 00:33:24,464 --> 00:33:27,744 have the state agency or why should I pay you for this information? 630 00:33:27,744 --> 00:33:30,894 Or why should I have you collect this information when it's just in Google? 631 00:33:30,894 --> 00:33:31,694 It's just use Google. 632 00:33:31,704 --> 00:33:36,164 Google has all that information without the people in charge who 633 00:33:36,194 --> 00:33:39,114 control budgets and control decision making and come up with, you know 634 00:33:39,114 --> 00:33:40,364 policies and that sort of thing. 635 00:33:40,384 --> 00:33:44,294 Didn't realize that Google at the time was getting all the free data that 636 00:33:44,364 --> 00:33:47,724 governments were putting out and they were incorporating it into their platform. 637 00:33:48,014 --> 00:33:51,184 And I pick on Google because I remember that very that conversation specifically, 638 00:33:51,184 --> 00:33:55,574 but it's not like Microsoft or Tom Tom or Esri wasn't doing the exact same thing. 639 00:33:56,134 --> 00:33:57,794 So, They're needed. 640 00:33:57,834 --> 00:34:03,724 We had to do some very fast education to explain to our legislature that, yeah, 641 00:34:03,724 --> 00:34:06,774 Google has it, but they have it because they downloaded it from the official state 642 00:34:06,824 --> 00:34:12,334 agency, which we're asking you to keep funding so we can keep generating more 643 00:34:12,334 --> 00:34:15,184 data so that Google has access to it. 644 00:34:15,594 --> 00:34:18,174 And it's a little reminiscent of. 645 00:34:19,254 --> 00:34:23,504 The AI thing going on right now, where, you know, AI is training, AI is creating 646 00:34:23,534 --> 00:34:27,514 problems instead of having original information to train from to get the AI. 647 00:34:27,524 --> 00:34:30,274 It's like you need that basic information to start. 648 00:34:30,724 --> 00:34:35,864 And a lot of times that governmental role is critical for that. 649 00:34:35,884 --> 00:34:40,574 And a lot of times I argue almost always the governmental role is critical before 650 00:34:40,574 --> 00:34:42,794 it ends up in these other products. 651 00:34:43,554 --> 00:34:47,264 Similarly, you saw and I fought with this in the mapping community 652 00:34:47,264 --> 00:34:50,574 a lot is every at some point. 653 00:34:50,634 --> 00:34:55,014 I'm gonna say 2015 incorporated open street maps into 1 of their base maps. 654 00:34:55,294 --> 00:34:57,644 I can't remember exactly when they did that, but it was a layer 655 00:34:57,644 --> 00:34:59,004 you could add to the base maps. 656 00:34:59,734 --> 00:35:03,134 And then suddenly, everyone kept saying every open street map. 657 00:35:03,724 --> 00:35:05,704 And I had to yell a lot and go, no, it's not Ezra's 658 00:35:05,704 --> 00:35:07,564 OpenStreetMap, it's OpenStreetMap. 659 00:35:07,624 --> 00:35:09,084 Ezra's just adding it in there. 660 00:35:09,604 --> 00:35:12,614 This exists that has nothing to do with Ezra. 661 00:35:12,615 --> 00:35:15,644 It's just they, they said, we can add this in, you know, as a base map. 662 00:35:15,884 --> 00:35:19,524 So, which is great, but getting. 663 00:35:20,259 --> 00:35:25,269 Even experts to understand there are things out there that exist that is 664 00:35:25,349 --> 00:35:31,699 the culmination of a lot of work and important basic work that you're just 665 00:35:31,709 --> 00:35:33,109 kind of putting a bow on at the end. 666 00:35:34,329 --> 00:35:36,819 Yeah, it's great that that bow exists and it's there, but. 667 00:35:37,279 --> 00:35:41,529 Understand this takes a lot of effort, and it needs to be recognized and supported. 668 00:35:42,219 --> 00:35:48,589 There was a dichotomy going on because I remember that the data was being used. 669 00:35:48,589 --> 00:35:50,329 That was generated by open street map. 670 00:35:50,339 --> 00:35:54,789 But at the same time, there were discussions about can the contributions 671 00:35:54,789 --> 00:35:56,569 by the public to open street map. 672 00:35:56,669 --> 00:35:57,869 Is that accurate? 673 00:35:57,869 --> 00:35:59,069 Is that useful? 674 00:35:59,219 --> 00:36:02,619 There was a pushback against this idea of collaboration, 675 00:36:02,629 --> 00:36:04,769 especially open data collaboration. 676 00:36:05,149 --> 00:36:09,459 In, in ways that I, you know, there were people in rooms yelling when I had 677 00:36:09,459 --> 00:36:13,829 gone to a national conference and I was a little surprised by that because at 678 00:36:13,829 --> 00:36:18,269 the, I don't think we realized at the time this was actually something heated. 679 00:36:18,889 --> 00:36:20,399 In the map community, 680 00:36:21,429 --> 00:36:23,189 well, I think, and that continues, right? 681 00:36:23,189 --> 00:36:26,919 Part of that is that ongoing question of expert collected knowledge 682 00:36:26,929 --> 00:36:31,489 versus, you know, general you know, collection is, is there a separation? 683 00:36:31,499 --> 00:36:34,509 Should there be separation for the reasons that you're talking about? 684 00:36:34,509 --> 00:36:34,779 Right? 685 00:36:34,779 --> 00:36:37,599 So the question of, you know how is it collected, right? 686 00:36:37,599 --> 00:36:41,659 We can't know necessarily did it meet certain, you know, accuracy standards, 687 00:36:41,659 --> 00:36:46,469 which we have, you know, standards that go along with the data sets and, and, 688 00:36:46,639 --> 00:36:52,869 and so that is, has been a question that has I think been worked through 689 00:36:52,879 --> 00:36:57,174 quite Intensely for a lot of these things as to how to how to address 690 00:36:57,174 --> 00:37:00,874 that, because especially in the early days, it really was, you know, an issue. 691 00:37:00,894 --> 00:37:04,364 Just now that you have access to this you may not have access to 692 00:37:04,524 --> 00:37:06,984 the same level in different places. 693 00:37:07,014 --> 00:37:09,204 So how do you match what's already there? 694 00:37:09,214 --> 00:37:11,614 Maybe from you know, more well developed data sets. 695 00:37:11,974 --> 00:37:15,334 So, so a debate then, and I think still a debate now, just 696 00:37:15,704 --> 00:37:16,944 It's kind of evolved a bit 697 00:37:17,774 --> 00:37:18,544 anything else 698 00:37:19,344 --> 00:37:20,274 I have. 699 00:37:20,344 --> 00:37:25,214 I watched a recent interview with the founder of OpenStreetMap. 700 00:37:25,224 --> 00:37:28,834 And what I thought was interesting in there is is when he saw this, he 701 00:37:28,844 --> 00:37:32,844 described it as a hobby, like, how do you get people to put in this data? 702 00:37:33,144 --> 00:37:34,694 You know, they're not being paid for it. 703 00:37:34,694 --> 00:37:38,544 But a lot of times they get a sense of accomplishment from from doing it. 704 00:37:38,904 --> 00:37:45,494 But the, the other thing is this, just the vision That he had and how he saw this 705 00:37:45,494 --> 00:37:51,654 and he went out and found a way to bring it together like this confluence of the, 706 00:37:51,664 --> 00:37:55,254 the wiki idea of the, and the technology being there and the software being there. 707 00:37:55,254 --> 00:37:58,964 And then the, you know, Google maps haven't come out to make this something 708 00:37:58,964 --> 00:38:05,404 that was creating an awareness of the need and the ability for spatial work that 709 00:38:05,424 --> 00:38:09,724 it's still continues that we see all this innovation going on that it didn't stop. 710 00:38:11,679 --> 00:38:14,859 Within the past 20 years, like what's after open street map? 711 00:38:15,209 --> 00:38:17,479 Because I'm sure someone's looking at open street map and going. 712 00:38:17,479 --> 00:38:19,129 This doesn't fulfill all my needs. 713 00:38:19,659 --> 00:38:21,089 And it is open. 714 00:38:21,099 --> 00:38:22,329 But what's next? 715 00:38:22,609 --> 00:38:25,549 Well, and that brings us back to news items like overture 716 00:38:25,549 --> 00:38:27,199 maps doing general availability. 717 00:38:27,199 --> 00:38:30,389 You know, it's it's a different thing. 718 00:38:30,749 --> 00:38:36,039 It's not something that everybody is involved in creating, but it is open. 719 00:38:37,599 --> 00:38:41,479 So it's, is it where we're going after this? 720 00:38:43,009 --> 00:38:46,979 But again just wanted to talk about what was going on 20 years ago. 721 00:38:46,999 --> 00:38:52,159 Cause we have a perspective cause we were in the world geospatial and 722 00:38:52,989 --> 00:38:53,219 physically. 723 00:38:53,249 --> 00:38:56,559 And it played out in, in events to like where 2. 724 00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,599 0, that brief moment in time where they, they held those, a lot 725 00:38:59,599 --> 00:39:03,079 of the discussions about these, these topics are going on there. 726 00:39:06,049 --> 00:39:06,949 Go out, check it out. 727 00:39:06,949 --> 00:39:08,599 If you've not used open street map. 728 00:39:08,989 --> 00:39:10,849 Go out and go over to the website. 729 00:39:10,859 --> 00:39:11,589 Check it out. 730 00:39:11,689 --> 00:39:13,879 If you're not used over to your maps, go over and check that out. 731 00:39:13,889 --> 00:39:19,629 You know, it's, there's a lot out there that we can utilize as geospatial 732 00:39:19,639 --> 00:39:22,409 professionals and get involved if you can. 733 00:39:25,154 --> 00:39:28,444 On the events corner, as always, you should check out events and, 734 00:39:28,494 --> 00:39:29,774 you know, go to them if you can. 735 00:39:30,644 --> 00:39:34,904 First up, your Ricardo 2024 is going to be taking place September 9th 736 00:39:34,904 --> 00:39:36,584 through the 11th in Vienna, Austria. 737 00:39:37,604 --> 00:39:41,004 GIS in the Rockies 2024 is taking place September 26th 738 00:39:41,034 --> 00:39:41,754 in Denver. 739 00:39:43,074 --> 00:39:45,624 Of course, if you'd like us to add your event to the podcast, send us 740 00:39:45,624 --> 00:39:47,024 an email to podcast at very spatial. 741 00:39:47,024 --> 00:39:47,464 com. 742 00:39:48,064 --> 00:39:50,874 If you'd like to reach us individually, I can be reached at very spatial. 743 00:39:50,974 --> 00:39:51,284 com. 744 00:39:53,154 --> 00:39:53,914 I can be reached at 745 00:39:53,914 --> 00:39:54,914 barb at very spatial. 746 00:39:55,054 --> 00:39:55,374 com. 747 00:39:55,434 --> 00:39:55,584 You 748 00:39:55,584 --> 00:39:56,944 can reach me at Frank at very spatial. 749 00:39:57,024 --> 00:39:57,284 com. 750 00:39:58,239 --> 00:39:59,659 And I'm available at Kind of Spatial. 751 00:39:59,659 --> 00:40:01,679 And of course, if you'd like to find our contact information, 752 00:40:01,689 --> 00:40:02,349 head over to various patient. 753 00:40:02,489 --> 00:40:04,009 com slash contacts. 754 00:40:05,409 --> 00:40:06,009 As always, 755 00:40:06,279 --> 00:40:06,939 we're the folks from 756 00:40:06,939 --> 00:40:07,629 very spatial. 757 00:40:07,689 --> 00:40:08,319 Thanks for listening, 758 00:40:08,619 --> 00:40:09,639 and we'll see you in a couple weeks.