1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,060 - Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Munk Debates. 2 00:00:03,060 --> 00:00:05,790 - Not long ago, a few thousand people gathered 3 00:00:05,790 --> 00:00:07,770 at Roy Thompson Hall in Toronto, 4 00:00:07,770 --> 00:00:12,060 the fanciest performance space in the city to hear a debate, 5 00:00:12,060 --> 00:00:14,520 parliamentary style, opening statements, 6 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,160 rebuttals, closing arguments. 7 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,670 - It's so strange hearing you debate, Malcolm, 8 00:00:20,670 --> 00:00:23,721 because you listen to nothing that your opponents say. 9 00:00:23,721 --> 00:00:25,380 (audience laughing) It's quite extraordinary. 10 00:00:25,380 --> 00:00:28,710 I've met it before, but never quite so badly 11 00:00:28,710 --> 00:00:30,210 as it occurs in you. 12 00:00:30,210 --> 00:00:32,850 You keep saying things that neither of us have said. 13 00:00:32,850 --> 00:00:35,400 Malcolm, why don't you listen to what comes out 14 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:37,950 of our mouths and try to learn something from it 15 00:00:37,950 --> 00:00:41,233 as I am with you, but at the moment all I get 16 00:00:41,233 --> 00:00:45,540 is you dismissing every single story we come up with. 17 00:00:45,540 --> 00:00:47,340 - Turns out he was right. 18 00:00:47,340 --> 00:00:50,460 And that was when DiCo told me 19 00:00:50,460 --> 00:00:54,360 I had to come to Brooklyn again for listening lessons. 20 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,870 - When I teach debate, I teach it 21 00:00:57,870 --> 00:01:00,363 as essentially competitive listening. 22 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,330 - How to listen effectively when you debate at work, 23 00:01:27,330 --> 00:01:30,180 what you just heard was a tiny part 24 00:01:30,180 --> 00:01:33,600 of a 90-minute Munk Debate from Canada. 25 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:38,040 They were debating the proposition, be it resolved. 26 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,130 Don't trust the mainstream media. 27 00:01:41,130 --> 00:01:44,610 Before the debate, the host, Rudyard Griffiths, 28 00:01:44,610 --> 00:01:46,710 invited thousands of people in the audience 29 00:01:46,710 --> 00:01:51,600 to complete the poll, which resulted in the following. 30 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:56,600 48% of people agreed, don't trust the mainstream media. 31 00:01:59,910 --> 00:02:02,430 52% disagreed. 32 00:02:02,430 --> 00:02:05,970 Then Rudyard proposed a second question. 33 00:02:05,970 --> 00:02:08,695 Are you open to changing your vote 34 00:02:08,695 --> 00:02:10,438 on the resolution tonight? 35 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:12,810 I always say that listening 36 00:02:12,810 --> 00:02:14,883 is the willingness to change your mind. 37 00:02:15,900 --> 00:02:20,610 The result, 82% said yes, 38 00:02:20,610 --> 00:02:22,833 they were open to changing their vote. 39 00:02:23,730 --> 00:02:26,280 They will get an opportunity to vote again 40 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,140 at the end of the debate. 41 00:02:28,140 --> 00:02:33,140 For the affirmative, Douglas Murray and Matt Taibbi 42 00:02:33,330 --> 00:02:35,670 are speaking for the proposition, 43 00:02:35,670 --> 00:02:38,550 don't trust the mainstream media. 44 00:02:38,550 --> 00:02:40,410 And arguing for the negative 45 00:02:40,410 --> 00:02:44,610 is Michelle Goldberg and Malcolm Gladwell. 46 00:02:44,610 --> 00:02:48,570 A robust debate took place over the 80 minutes 47 00:02:48,570 --> 00:02:51,000 and the audience was asked to vote again. 48 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,010 A reminder, the original score 49 00:02:53,010 --> 00:02:58,010 was 48% agreed with the proposition, 50 00:02:58,500 --> 00:03:01,020 don't trust the mainstream media. 51 00:03:01,020 --> 00:03:03,855 Four out of five people were also willing 52 00:03:03,855 --> 00:03:05,580 to change their vote. 53 00:03:05,580 --> 00:03:08,790 On their final vote at the end of the debate, 54 00:03:08,790 --> 00:03:13,790 the result, 67% of people voted for the proposition 55 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,820 don't trust the mainstream media. 56 00:03:17,820 --> 00:03:21,570 The audience listened and they changed their mind. 57 00:03:21,570 --> 00:03:24,000 In fact, this was the biggest swing 58 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,760 in the history of the Munk Debates, 59 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:31,760 Murray and Taibbi won Goldberg and Gladwell 60 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,400 were comprehensively defeated. 61 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,817 In Gladwell's own words, "We got creamed." 62 00:03:39,750 --> 00:03:42,300 Upon reflection, Malcolm Gladwell decided 63 00:03:42,300 --> 00:03:44,760 he needed to improve his listening. 64 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,220 They didn't lose because of what they said, 65 00:03:47,220 --> 00:03:50,010 they lost because they weren't listening 66 00:03:50,010 --> 00:03:53,370 to the other team or the audience. 67 00:03:53,370 --> 00:03:56,700 To improve his listening, Malcolm reached out 68 00:03:56,700 --> 00:04:01,470 to his friend, DiCo, at the Brooklyn Debate League. 69 00:04:01,470 --> 00:04:06,210 As a result, Malcolm created an entire episode 70 00:04:06,210 --> 00:04:08,910 of his podcast, Revisionist History 71 00:04:08,910 --> 00:04:12,810 called, "Malcolm Goes to Debate School." 72 00:04:12,810 --> 00:04:16,650 Many of the deep listening ambassadors sent me this episode 73 00:04:16,650 --> 00:04:21,330 and said, "Oscar, you need to interview, Sasan Kasravi 74 00:04:21,330 --> 00:04:23,130 from the Brooklyn Debate League, 75 00:04:23,130 --> 00:04:25,650 an expert debater and educator." 76 00:04:25,650 --> 00:04:28,470 I had a wonderful conversation with Sasan 77 00:04:28,470 --> 00:04:31,980 and you'll hear from him shortly, as well as other parts 78 00:04:31,980 --> 00:04:34,860 of Malcolm Gladwell's reflections. 79 00:04:34,860 --> 00:04:37,740 Why should you listen to an episode about debate 80 00:04:37,740 --> 00:04:40,800 and how does it influence your listening at work? 81 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,420 I want you to keep three concepts 82 00:04:42,420 --> 00:04:44,670 in mind as you listen today. 83 00:04:44,670 --> 00:04:48,060 The first, when you need to argue your proposition 84 00:04:48,060 --> 00:04:51,690 to someone else or to a group of people at work, 85 00:04:51,690 --> 00:04:53,760 you need to prepare, understand 86 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:58,560 and articulate both sides of the argument. 87 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:02,610 Can you argue their position as effectively 88 00:05:02,610 --> 00:05:04,740 as you can argue your own? 89 00:05:04,740 --> 00:05:07,500 If you can, you've probably discovered 90 00:05:07,500 --> 00:05:10,230 that there are more than two positions to debate. 91 00:05:10,230 --> 00:05:12,630 Maybe there's a third, a fourth, 92 00:05:12,630 --> 00:05:15,540 and many other alternatives will emerge. 93 00:05:15,540 --> 00:05:17,700 The second, you can be more persuasive 94 00:05:17,700 --> 00:05:20,430 when you listen carefully to what the others are saying, 95 00:05:20,430 --> 00:05:22,650 you're more likely to change their minds. 96 00:05:22,650 --> 00:05:26,310 The minds of the speakers, the surrounding stakeholders 97 00:05:26,310 --> 00:05:28,860 and other audience if you listen well, 98 00:05:28,860 --> 00:05:31,770 noting their arguments and adjusting. 99 00:05:31,770 --> 00:05:36,030 Finally, and number three, you can make note taking 100 00:05:36,030 --> 00:05:38,430 one of your listening superpowers. 101 00:05:38,430 --> 00:05:41,250 Not by learning how to transcribe, 102 00:05:41,250 --> 00:05:44,370 note taking is about connection, content, 103 00:05:44,370 --> 00:05:48,213 context, systems, and a visual shorthand. 104 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,570 Throughout our discussion today, I'll invite you 105 00:05:51,570 --> 00:05:56,570 to pause and participate to listen and take notes. 106 00:06:00,390 --> 00:06:03,900 This discussion will include what I consider a masterclass 107 00:06:03,900 --> 00:06:07,710 from Sasan about how to effectively take notes 108 00:06:07,710 --> 00:06:09,540 in the context of debate 109 00:06:09,540 --> 00:06:12,570 and extremely limited time environment. 110 00:06:12,570 --> 00:06:14,370 Does that sound like where you work? 111 00:06:15,780 --> 00:06:18,360 I went into this discussion with an open mind about 112 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,540 note taking and realized that in complex debates, 113 00:06:21,540 --> 00:06:24,480 in group settings, I needed to adjust 114 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,350 my orientation about 90 degrees. 115 00:06:28,350 --> 00:06:31,260 Thanks for changing my mind, Sasan. 116 00:06:31,260 --> 00:06:34,770 Before we begin, a big thank you to Jacob Smith, 117 00:06:34,770 --> 00:06:38,790 the producer at Pushkin Industries, for providing permission 118 00:06:38,790 --> 00:06:42,660 to use parts of the Revisionist History episode 119 00:06:42,660 --> 00:06:46,927 from season eight in April, 2023, 120 00:06:46,927 --> 00:06:48,930 "Malcolm goes to Debate School." 121 00:06:48,930 --> 00:06:51,570 Next, you'll hear from a few different voices, 122 00:06:51,570 --> 00:06:56,070 including Sasan and Jonathan from the Brooklyn Debate League 123 00:06:56,070 --> 00:06:57,660 and Malcolm Gladwell. 124 00:06:57,660 --> 00:07:00,570 And for bonus points, at the very end 125 00:07:00,570 --> 00:07:04,560 I've got the reflections of Douglas Murray, 126 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:09,030 Malcolm Gladwell's opponent in the debate 127 00:07:09,030 --> 00:07:12,153 and his reflections on Malcolm's lack of listening. 128 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,790 - Hi, my name's Sasan Kasravi. 129 00:07:17,790 --> 00:07:21,930 I am a debate coach working in New York 130 00:07:21,930 --> 00:07:26,930 to bring high quality critical thinking education 131 00:07:27,150 --> 00:07:30,720 to as many students in the city as we can. 132 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:32,790 - What's the cost of not listening? 133 00:07:32,790 --> 00:07:37,790 - The cost of not listening is not knowing. 134 00:07:38,820 --> 00:07:43,230 It's not being able to test your assumptions. 135 00:07:43,230 --> 00:07:47,490 The foundation of what we do in debate. 136 00:07:47,490 --> 00:07:51,330 There is this idea that every assertion 137 00:07:51,330 --> 00:07:53,520 is based on assumptions. 138 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,160 So every belief that you have, everything that you think 139 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,770 you know about the world or your life 140 00:07:58,770 --> 00:08:00,933 or anything that you've ever experienced, 141 00:08:02,100 --> 00:08:06,060 you have a lot of assumptions embedded in that 142 00:08:06,060 --> 00:08:08,580 where there's things that you don't know are true 143 00:08:08,580 --> 00:08:10,350 but you're just assuming aren't. 144 00:08:10,350 --> 00:08:14,130 And for any belief, there's probably more assumptions 145 00:08:14,130 --> 00:08:17,310 you are making than there is evidence 146 00:08:17,310 --> 00:08:21,300 that you have or good reason you have to believe something. 147 00:08:21,300 --> 00:08:23,310 If you're trying to drive a car, 148 00:08:23,310 --> 00:08:25,500 if you don't make some assumptions, 149 00:08:25,500 --> 00:08:28,560 you can't really go anywhere. 150 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,870 Assumptions are the gas pedal of the car 151 00:08:30,870 --> 00:08:35,160 where the more assumptions you make, the faster you move. 152 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:39,540 I think listening is what allows us to steer 153 00:08:39,540 --> 00:08:44,540 and the cost of not listening is trading speed for steering, 154 00:08:46,470 --> 00:08:50,430 which sounds appealing when you are in a certain mind frame 155 00:08:50,430 --> 00:08:53,850 but is a lot less appealing when you head into a brick wall 156 00:08:53,850 --> 00:08:56,040 - Without a break, you may up in a brick wall, 157 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,666 so I'm curious about the choice to place listening 158 00:08:59,666 --> 00:09:01,920 on the steering wheel. 159 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:06,240 Have you considered the role of listening as a brake? 160 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:11,010 - The role of a brake in this analogy is confronting 161 00:09:11,010 --> 00:09:13,050 and accepting the things that you don't know 162 00:09:13,050 --> 00:09:17,400 and that you can't really work around. 163 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,910 When do you stop in a particular direction? 164 00:09:20,910 --> 00:09:22,650 When is it not productive for you 165 00:09:22,650 --> 00:09:25,530 to move past where you are? 166 00:09:25,530 --> 00:09:30,330 The role of a brake is to decide when it's time to stop, 167 00:09:30,330 --> 00:09:34,530 because any direction you move farther is not productive 168 00:09:34,530 --> 00:09:38,343 toward accomplishing a valuable goal. 169 00:09:39,390 --> 00:09:41,340 - We say listening happens before, 170 00:09:41,340 --> 00:09:43,020 during, and after the discussion. 171 00:09:43,020 --> 00:09:45,000 And this is true in debate. 172 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,450 There is a definite before, during, and after. 173 00:09:48,450 --> 00:09:51,360 And there's two elements of preparation. 174 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,440 The first one is how to prepare for both sides. 175 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:59,820 And the second, which doesn't often happen in workplace 176 00:09:59,820 --> 00:10:04,800 settings, is getting the participants to vote 177 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:06,990 by standing on one side of the room or the other, 178 00:10:06,990 --> 00:10:11,430 so you know what you are dealing with in terms of who agrees 179 00:10:11,430 --> 00:10:14,040 with a resolution and who does not. 180 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,710 - What does actually preparing for a debate 181 00:10:16,710 --> 00:10:19,080 in the academic world look like? 182 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,290 I've been doing 10 hours of research 183 00:10:22,290 --> 00:10:26,550 in the last couple days on academic tracking, 184 00:10:26,550 --> 00:10:28,320 on the benefits and harms, 185 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,470 and I probably have another 10 hours ahead of me 186 00:10:31,470 --> 00:10:35,700 before I feel confident that the arguments 187 00:10:35,700 --> 00:10:37,680 that I have prepared on this topic 188 00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:41,310 are to the level of quality that I want them. 189 00:10:41,310 --> 00:10:43,530 So what does that look like? 190 00:10:43,530 --> 00:10:45,330 The first thing I'm curious to learn 191 00:10:45,330 --> 00:10:48,660 is what is the common understanding of this issue? 192 00:10:48,660 --> 00:10:51,210 If I'm going to watch two other people debate about this, 193 00:10:51,210 --> 00:10:55,200 what are the arguments that is going to be brought up 194 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:56,940 by the side that's for it? 195 00:10:56,940 --> 00:10:58,980 What are the arguments that are gonna be brought up 196 00:10:58,980 --> 00:11:00,930 by the side that's against it? 197 00:11:00,930 --> 00:11:05,400 And I want to make sure I understand 198 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,310 what each side likes about those arguments 199 00:11:08,310 --> 00:11:12,270 and what their motivation behind it is, 200 00:11:12,270 --> 00:11:14,340 what they're trying to accomplish. 201 00:11:14,340 --> 00:11:18,000 In debate, we break an argument down 202 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,060 into different components. 203 00:11:21,060 --> 00:11:22,770 And by argument I mean anything 204 00:11:22,770 --> 00:11:23,940 that you're claiming to be true, 205 00:11:23,940 --> 00:11:26,550 anything you're advocating for, right? 206 00:11:26,550 --> 00:11:28,747 And we hear people say things like, 207 00:11:28,747 --> 00:11:30,120 "Oh, that's a good argument," 208 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:31,710 but what do we mean by that? 209 00:11:31,710 --> 00:11:34,980 What are the qualities of a good argument? 210 00:11:34,980 --> 00:11:38,460 Because the answer you normally get is a good argument 211 00:11:38,460 --> 00:11:40,966 is one that persuades people. 212 00:11:40,966 --> 00:11:42,360 But how do you know if it'll persuade people? 213 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,330 Or you find out that you should support your idea 214 00:11:45,330 --> 00:11:47,640 with evidence, but you don't know 215 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:49,770 what the idea you're supporting with evidence 216 00:11:49,770 --> 00:11:50,640 is supposed to be. 217 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,910 A good argument is three things. 218 00:11:53,910 --> 00:11:55,290 It's true. 219 00:11:55,290 --> 00:11:59,340 The claim you're making is supported by reason and evidence. 220 00:11:59,340 --> 00:12:04,200 It's relevant to your audience to the thing 221 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:05,340 that you're there to discuss. 222 00:12:05,340 --> 00:12:08,730 There's some sort of shared question that we're trying 223 00:12:08,730 --> 00:12:12,840 to answer and your argument is relevant to that. 224 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,290 Most importantly is it's important. 225 00:12:16,290 --> 00:12:19,473 So there's a lot of arguments 226 00:12:19,473 --> 00:12:24,450 that you can make about any given topic that are true, 227 00:12:24,450 --> 00:12:29,450 but ultimately when somebody comes to a decision about 228 00:12:29,460 --> 00:12:33,900 that big question, it's not like, oh, well, 229 00:12:33,900 --> 00:12:36,270 there was 12 reasons why we should do this 230 00:12:36,270 --> 00:12:38,130 and seven reasons why we shouldn't, 231 00:12:38,130 --> 00:12:41,790 so I guess the 12 side wins. 232 00:12:41,790 --> 00:12:46,560 Usually it comes down to the one most important issue 233 00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:48,000 that was raised. 234 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:52,410 And that can be the only topic, the only argument 235 00:12:52,410 --> 00:12:53,640 that one side brought up. 236 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:54,870 In terms of preparing, 237 00:12:54,870 --> 00:12:56,640 first you wanna know what the landscape is, 238 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,950 then you wanna try to figure out 239 00:12:58,950 --> 00:13:02,580 what would the best solution to this question look like? 240 00:13:02,580 --> 00:13:04,980 And after that it's thinking about what are the arguments 241 00:13:04,980 --> 00:13:07,560 that nobody else is thinking about? 242 00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:10,470 And I can figure out if we're talking about academic 243 00:13:10,470 --> 00:13:12,810 tracking, what the basic discussion 244 00:13:12,810 --> 00:13:17,810 is most likely to be within an hour on any topic. 245 00:13:17,820 --> 00:13:22,820 The other 19 hours is the aspects of this issue 246 00:13:24,210 --> 00:13:27,960 that people aren't thinking about. 247 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:32,960 And that's really where your strength as a advocate are 248 00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:36,840 because your audience is going in 249 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,050 trying to have an open mind, but to the degree 250 00:13:40,050 --> 00:13:42,720 that they understand the question being asked, 251 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:44,640 they have some opinion on it, 252 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:49,640 and them hearing you sound pretty isn't really going 253 00:13:49,890 --> 00:13:51,207 to challenge their assumptions. 254 00:13:51,207 --> 00:13:54,660 And so how do you prepare for a debate? 255 00:13:54,660 --> 00:13:56,730 You wanna first understand the landscape 256 00:13:56,730 --> 00:14:00,630 of your audience is going in with a certain set 257 00:14:00,630 --> 00:14:03,360 of assumptions about this topic, certain pros and cons 258 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:04,710 that they currently understand. 259 00:14:04,710 --> 00:14:06,990 You have to figure out what those are. 260 00:14:06,990 --> 00:14:08,940 You have to figure out what value system 261 00:14:08,940 --> 00:14:12,870 they're probably using to make their decision 262 00:14:12,870 --> 00:14:15,540 on whether they like that idea or not. 263 00:14:15,540 --> 00:14:17,490 You have to decide is that a good value system 264 00:14:17,490 --> 00:14:18,323 for them to be using? 265 00:14:18,323 --> 00:14:20,940 Is there a different value system that you think 266 00:14:20,940 --> 00:14:23,130 you know a different value that they have 267 00:14:23,130 --> 00:14:24,870 that you can attach to this? 268 00:14:24,870 --> 00:14:26,730 You can't change their values, 269 00:14:26,730 --> 00:14:28,470 but can you get them, for instance, 270 00:14:28,470 --> 00:14:31,200 to instead of being focused on their finances, 271 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:32,700 to be focused on their safety. 272 00:14:33,570 --> 00:14:37,800 And once you know what that is, you have to consider all 273 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:41,850 of the different inroads that they haven't considered 274 00:14:41,850 --> 00:14:43,680 in their decisions because that's the only way 275 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,490 you're going to really get an audience 276 00:14:47,490 --> 00:14:52,413 to reconsider their position coming into a discussion. 277 00:14:55,860 --> 00:14:57,916 - The short excerpt you're about to hear next 278 00:14:57,916 --> 00:15:01,080 is from the Revisionist History podcast where Malcolm 279 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,903 goes to the Brooklyn Debate League. 280 00:15:04,890 --> 00:15:07,230 The recording takes place inside a classroom 281 00:15:07,230 --> 00:15:10,800 with a range of school age participants as well as Malcolm. 282 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,530 Jonathan Conyers is the first voice you will hear, 283 00:15:13,530 --> 00:15:16,560 and he's setting up for a mini debate. 284 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:18,180 Wouldn't it be great in a workplace 285 00:15:18,180 --> 00:15:21,090 if everybody stood up on the left and the right 286 00:15:21,090 --> 00:15:24,923 where they stand on the issue or the decision to be made 287 00:15:24,923 --> 00:15:27,813 before the discussion takes place? 288 00:15:29,010 --> 00:15:31,200 And how about we vote afterwards, 289 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,270 so we know where everybody stands? 290 00:15:33,270 --> 00:15:35,550 Not sure that every workplace is ready for it. 291 00:15:35,550 --> 00:15:36,660 Let's listen to Jonathan. 292 00:15:36,660 --> 00:15:39,081 - Ready? Y'all ready? - Yes, sir. 293 00:15:39,081 --> 00:15:41,310 - All right, open forum, look up. 294 00:15:41,310 --> 00:15:43,500 Being able to listen is the most important skill 295 00:15:43,500 --> 00:15:45,390 a debater should have. 296 00:15:45,390 --> 00:15:47,133 All right, stand up. 297 00:15:48,243 --> 00:15:49,076 You know the routine. 298 00:15:49,076 --> 00:15:49,909 If you agree, you're on this side. 299 00:15:49,909 --> 00:15:51,240 If you disagree, you're on that side. 300 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:52,967 Come on, come on, come on. 301 00:15:52,967 --> 00:15:55,320 - Jonathan, Kick things off with a warmup exercise, 302 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:56,520 open forum. 303 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:58,980 A mini debate on the question of the day. 304 00:15:58,980 --> 00:16:01,470 What's more important to a debater? 305 00:16:01,470 --> 00:16:04,680 Being a good listener or a good talker? 306 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:06,990 - Being able to listen is the most important skill 307 00:16:06,990 --> 00:16:08,970 a debater could have. 308 00:16:08,970 --> 00:16:12,750 Being able to listen is the most important skill a debater- 309 00:16:12,750 --> 00:16:14,640 - Debating is not only about using information 310 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,070 against information, but it's also about obtaining something 311 00:16:17,070 --> 00:16:19,470 and understanding it in order to use information 312 00:16:19,470 --> 00:16:20,303 to fight it. 313 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,810 - You also said you have to listen to your opponent. 314 00:16:24,810 --> 00:16:27,540 So that's also a very important skill 315 00:16:27,540 --> 00:16:29,880 to listen to your opponent, 'cause if you don't listen to it 316 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:31,500 and you just drawing stuff down, 317 00:16:31,500 --> 00:16:33,840 you might say the wrong things or write down the wrong thing 318 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:35,280 as to what your opponent is saying. 319 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,020 - Hold that thought for a moment. 320 00:16:37,020 --> 00:16:41,040 You might write down the wrong thing. 321 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,770 This becomes very important for the balance 322 00:16:43,770 --> 00:16:45,720 of our conversation. 323 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,150 Taking matters not just in debate, 324 00:16:48,150 --> 00:16:49,563 but also in your workplace. 325 00:16:52,710 --> 00:16:55,320 Before, during, and after. 326 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,510 Let's talk about during the debate. 327 00:16:57,510 --> 00:17:02,510 A lot of people think that world class debaters, 328 00:17:02,850 --> 00:17:05,400 people who are persuasive and can change minds 329 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,050 do so through oratory. 330 00:17:07,050 --> 00:17:09,210 They do so through rhetoric. 331 00:17:09,210 --> 00:17:13,485 They do things the way they articulate their ideas, 332 00:17:13,485 --> 00:17:16,803 yet I suspect they're also great listeners. 333 00:17:18,090 --> 00:17:18,923 - You have to be. 334 00:17:18,923 --> 00:17:22,710 When I teach debate, I teach it 335 00:17:22,710 --> 00:17:26,010 as essentially competitive listening. 336 00:17:26,010 --> 00:17:30,600 And to a debater, the most impressive skill set, 337 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,240 and the one that sets the top level debaters 338 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,040 apart from people who are starting out 339 00:17:37,576 --> 00:17:42,510 is not the strength of writing an argument. 340 00:17:42,510 --> 00:17:46,200 The argument is just context for what the debate 341 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:47,855 is going to be. 342 00:17:47,855 --> 00:17:51,090 If you like chess, all of your preparation 343 00:17:51,090 --> 00:17:53,700 is just the opening moves of a chess game. 344 00:17:53,700 --> 00:17:57,570 And in chess, all of those opening moves have names, 345 00:17:57,570 --> 00:18:01,560 but nobody at a high level of chess is winning or losing 346 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,740 based on which opening move they're using. 347 00:18:04,740 --> 00:18:08,490 And the same thing is what we should expect to happen 348 00:18:08,490 --> 00:18:13,020 in a debate where we will take 10 students 349 00:18:13,020 --> 00:18:16,260 to a debate competition and they're paired up, 350 00:18:16,260 --> 00:18:18,390 and so there's five debate teams. 351 00:18:18,390 --> 00:18:23,190 There's one topic that everybody is going to debate 352 00:18:23,190 --> 00:18:26,910 and they're all going to go off into separate rooms 353 00:18:26,910 --> 00:18:31,530 and they're going to all make very similar arguments, 354 00:18:31,530 --> 00:18:35,340 if not just the same starting script for how they're going 355 00:18:35,340 --> 00:18:39,120 to advocate for their side of this issue. 356 00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:41,790 But at some point in that debate, 357 00:18:41,790 --> 00:18:43,140 just like in a game of chess, 358 00:18:43,140 --> 00:18:46,740 that debate will become an entirely unique debate 359 00:18:46,740 --> 00:18:51,740 that only this version of this discussion has ever existed. 360 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,430 Every other discussion about this topic is a slightly 361 00:18:56,430 --> 00:19:00,360 different discussion based on what points have been made, 362 00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:04,110 what's been responded to, what hasn't been responded to, 363 00:19:04,110 --> 00:19:08,040 what has been effective, what hasn't been effective. 364 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,400 And what makes a good debate a good debater 365 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,310 isn't their strength of writing a good speech 366 00:19:14,310 --> 00:19:16,560 for the first part of the debate. 367 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,890 It's their ability to recognize 368 00:19:19,890 --> 00:19:21,960 what's happening in this debate. 369 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:23,970 What have I said that is working? 370 00:19:23,970 --> 00:19:26,340 What have they said that is a concern? 371 00:19:26,340 --> 00:19:27,450 What have they said that's weak? 372 00:19:27,450 --> 00:19:28,380 What's good about it? 373 00:19:28,380 --> 00:19:29,340 What's bad about it? 374 00:19:29,340 --> 00:19:33,120 And that in the moment responsiveness, 375 00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:37,590 and always putting yourself in the position of the listener. 376 00:19:37,590 --> 00:19:39,750 That is your primary concern, 377 00:19:39,750 --> 00:19:42,483 which is the the third party, which is the judge. 378 00:19:43,661 --> 00:19:46,530 In competitive debate, there's always a third party. 379 00:19:46,530 --> 00:19:48,600 It's the thing that makes it the most different 380 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,450 from just arguing with somebody in real life. 381 00:19:51,450 --> 00:19:54,300 Because in competitive debate, the debate will end 382 00:19:54,300 --> 00:19:56,400 and someone will tell you if you won or you lost. 383 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,890 And so you always wanna be putting yourself in the position 384 00:19:58,890 --> 00:20:01,260 of what has this person heard? 385 00:20:01,260 --> 00:20:03,360 What are they thinking in this moment? 386 00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:07,050 Where do I want to move their attention to? 387 00:20:07,050 --> 00:20:10,890 And the only way you can do that is listening 388 00:20:10,890 --> 00:20:14,849 because the best debaters are the ones that can best 389 00:20:14,849 --> 00:20:18,990 put themselves in the position of the listening 390 00:20:18,990 --> 00:20:21,990 and decision making audience. 391 00:20:21,990 --> 00:20:24,900 And it's a tricky thing to balance, both listening 392 00:20:24,900 --> 00:20:27,330 to everything your opponent is saying 393 00:20:27,330 --> 00:20:31,170 in terms of processing what exactly they're claiming, 394 00:20:31,170 --> 00:20:33,000 how you want to respond, 395 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,700 but also at the same time processing 396 00:20:35,700 --> 00:20:40,290 what effect is this going to have on the third party 397 00:20:40,290 --> 00:20:41,340 that's listening to this? 398 00:20:41,340 --> 00:20:42,173 The judge. 399 00:20:42,173 --> 00:20:43,006 Is this persuasive to them? 400 00:20:43,006 --> 00:20:43,839 Do they like it? 401 00:20:43,839 --> 00:20:44,793 Do they not like it? 402 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,380 Because ultimately you can't respond 403 00:20:49,380 --> 00:20:51,810 to every single thing somebody else says 404 00:20:51,810 --> 00:20:53,670 and you have to make some decisions about 405 00:20:53,670 --> 00:20:56,043 what's important and what's not important. 406 00:20:58,143 --> 00:21:00,240 And the only way to make those decisions effectively 407 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:01,590 is to be a really good listener. 408 00:21:01,590 --> 00:21:03,360 If you don't know what somebody else said, 409 00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:08,360 you have no tool with which to know what bits are important. 410 00:21:10,710 --> 00:21:15,710 - In trying to notice and listen, people use note taking. 411 00:21:18,810 --> 00:21:22,950 Done well, it can liberate your listening. 412 00:21:22,950 --> 00:21:27,950 Done poorly, it can actually crash your listening 413 00:21:28,830 --> 00:21:31,770 and you need shit to deploy airbags. 414 00:21:31,770 --> 00:21:35,490 What's effective note-taking look like in a debate? 415 00:21:35,490 --> 00:21:40,490 - Debate has a unique style of note taking. 416 00:21:40,530 --> 00:21:45,530 It is a combination of what we would call an argument map. 417 00:21:46,410 --> 00:21:51,410 An argument map is a visual representation on a page 418 00:21:51,570 --> 00:21:53,490 of how a discussion has gone. 419 00:21:53,490 --> 00:21:57,150 Imagine like visualizing this point 420 00:21:57,150 --> 00:21:59,763 was responded to with this other point. 421 00:22:00,630 --> 00:22:03,120 And it's also a combination of shorthand, 422 00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:08,120 which is necessary to be able to not miss details, 423 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,880 which you inevitably, even the best debaters 424 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,070 will inevitably miss some details. 425 00:22:14,070 --> 00:22:17,736 And again, you have to deploy some thoughtful listening 426 00:22:17,736 --> 00:22:19,440 'cause it's not transcript making. 427 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,440 It's you're listening and deciding what 428 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,170 of the one third of this information 429 00:22:25,170 --> 00:22:26,910 that you're able to write down, 430 00:22:26,910 --> 00:22:30,120 what is the thing that is important to write down? 431 00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:32,100 Let's say you're starting at the top of the page 432 00:22:32,100 --> 00:22:33,510 and you're working your way down. 433 00:22:33,510 --> 00:22:37,500 We'll capture everything that someone has said. 434 00:22:37,500 --> 00:22:39,420 Let's say it's a perfect transcript. 435 00:22:39,420 --> 00:22:41,400 That's a court transcript. 436 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,220 And then the next lawyer comes up 437 00:22:44,220 --> 00:22:46,710 and the next lawyer makes a case. 438 00:22:46,710 --> 00:22:49,650 And the court once again has a perfect transcript. 439 00:22:49,650 --> 00:22:52,650 It's really difficult to visually tell 440 00:22:52,650 --> 00:22:56,190 by looking at those two pages of transcript, 441 00:22:56,190 --> 00:22:58,620 what did the first lawyer say 442 00:22:58,620 --> 00:23:01,140 that the second lawyer never responded to? 443 00:23:01,140 --> 00:23:05,910 The form of note taking that we do in debate flowing 444 00:23:05,910 --> 00:23:08,970 is instead of having one page for one speech 445 00:23:08,970 --> 00:23:13,710 or going vertically down, we split the debate into columns 446 00:23:13,710 --> 00:23:17,040 and the columns represent each speech that we know 447 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,260 is going to be happening in the debate. 448 00:23:19,260 --> 00:23:23,670 And the first column is just every basic argument 449 00:23:23,670 --> 00:23:25,503 that the first speaker makes. 450 00:23:26,340 --> 00:23:30,870 The second column, you write how the other side 451 00:23:30,870 --> 00:23:35,070 responds to that and you place an argument 452 00:23:35,070 --> 00:23:38,220 next to the argument that it's responding to. 453 00:23:38,220 --> 00:23:41,220 When Malcolm Gladwell came to our class 454 00:23:41,220 --> 00:23:43,590 and I was teaching him this card exercise, 455 00:23:43,590 --> 00:23:46,173 the exercise is I'm gonna name a bunch of cards. 456 00:23:50,100 --> 00:23:50,940 - Good day, it's Oscar. 457 00:23:50,940 --> 00:23:52,740 I'm just gonna quickly jump in here 458 00:23:52,740 --> 00:23:55,290 and signal what's about to happen. 459 00:23:55,290 --> 00:24:00,120 Sasan is going to read out a range of cards 460 00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:01,983 and you need to keep track of them. 461 00:24:03,060 --> 00:24:06,990 Then he's going to read out a different set of cards 462 00:24:06,990 --> 00:24:08,940 and you need to keep track of that too. 463 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,570 When it's finished, I'm gonna jump back in 464 00:24:12,570 --> 00:24:14,430 and deconstruct what's just happened. 465 00:24:14,430 --> 00:24:16,470 - Hello, my name is Sasan 466 00:24:16,470 --> 00:24:19,050 and I'll be speaking on the affirmative today. 467 00:24:19,050 --> 00:24:22,050 My first argument is the three of hearts. 468 00:24:22,050 --> 00:24:25,230 And we know that's true because of the four of diamonds. 469 00:24:25,230 --> 00:24:27,870 You can't forget about the jack of spades. 470 00:24:27,870 --> 00:24:31,140 A lot of people tell me 10 of diamonds. 471 00:24:31,140 --> 00:24:33,210 But what those people don't realize 472 00:24:33,210 --> 00:24:38,210 is first off ace of hearts, secondly, the six of clubs, 473 00:24:38,460 --> 00:24:41,190 and finally the nine of spades. 474 00:24:41,190 --> 00:24:42,023 That's it. 475 00:24:42,023 --> 00:24:42,856 That's the speech. 476 00:24:42,856 --> 00:24:45,603 So you should have these written down. 477 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:47,633 Okay, great. 478 00:24:48,570 --> 00:24:49,503 - How did you go? 479 00:24:50,490 --> 00:24:52,290 Did you write out the full name 480 00:24:52,290 --> 00:24:54,870 or did you use a shorthand code? 481 00:24:54,870 --> 00:24:57,840 Did you write from left to right 482 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,000 or did you write from top to bottom? 483 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,500 Did you write at all? 484 00:25:01,500 --> 00:25:03,630 Did you try and keep it in your head? 485 00:25:03,630 --> 00:25:07,653 After a while you realize you get pretty lost in the debate. 486 00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:15,270 - Now we're going to do the negative speech. 487 00:25:15,270 --> 00:25:16,800 I'm the negative and I disagree 488 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,210 with everything that guy said. 489 00:25:18,210 --> 00:25:22,680 He says three of hearts more like the seven of diamonds. 490 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,630 People like to talk about jack of spades, 491 00:25:24,630 --> 00:25:28,560 but what they don't realize is king of hearts. 492 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,000 10 of diamonds is okay. 493 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,150 if you don't remember that the ace of spades is there. 494 00:25:33,150 --> 00:25:36,120 And as far as the ace of hearts goes, 495 00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:37,743 more like the two of hearts. 496 00:25:38,820 --> 00:25:41,070 Finally, they brought up the nine of spades. 497 00:25:41,070 --> 00:25:43,980 Nine of spades, nine of seriously, 498 00:25:43,980 --> 00:25:45,390 because have you never heard 499 00:25:45,390 --> 00:25:47,220 of the queen of clubs? 500 00:25:47,220 --> 00:25:49,440 That's my whole speech. 501 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:50,880 - How did I do? 502 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,230 I was terrible. 503 00:25:52,230 --> 00:25:53,820 I could keep up for the first minute 504 00:25:53,820 --> 00:25:55,620 or so then I fell behind. 505 00:25:55,620 --> 00:25:57,270 I miss things. 506 00:25:57,270 --> 00:26:00,960 Sasan gets up and talks about playing cards 507 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:01,983 and I can't keep up. 508 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:06,600 - How did you go? 509 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,430 Did you feel like you wanna rewind 510 00:26:08,430 --> 00:26:10,770 and do the exercise all over again? 511 00:26:10,770 --> 00:26:12,630 So the first time there were seven cards, 512 00:26:12,630 --> 00:26:16,200 and the second time there were only five cards. 513 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,690 Did you notice that the four of diamonds 514 00:26:18,690 --> 00:26:21,750 was not refuted nor the six of clubs? 515 00:26:21,750 --> 00:26:24,363 None of those points were refuted. 516 00:26:25,350 --> 00:26:28,110 Sasan only refuted five points directly 517 00:26:28,110 --> 00:26:30,930 and he ignored two points. 518 00:26:30,930 --> 00:26:33,090 This is a really good example of listening 519 00:26:33,090 --> 00:26:34,680 to what's not said. 520 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,540 When I heard it for the first time, 521 00:26:36,540 --> 00:26:38,700 rather than trying to remember everything, 522 00:26:38,700 --> 00:26:40,500 I wrote down the following. 523 00:26:40,500 --> 00:26:43,410 And I did it from left to right 524 00:26:43,410 --> 00:26:45,900 rather than from top to bottom. 525 00:26:45,900 --> 00:26:50,900 I wrote, 3H, 4D, JS, 10D, AH, 6C, 9S. 526 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,150 I used a shorthand way so I didn't have 527 00:27:00,150 --> 00:27:02,313 to write anything out in full. 528 00:27:03,420 --> 00:27:06,360 Now writing it from left to right was a rookie error. 529 00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:08,070 That's the way we write. 530 00:27:08,070 --> 00:27:10,320 It's not the way we build an argument map. 531 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,980 And Sasan's gonna spend some time helping us understand 532 00:27:13,980 --> 00:27:15,690 how to do that a little bit further on. 533 00:27:15,690 --> 00:27:19,830 The second time around, I heard the following. 534 00:27:19,830 --> 00:27:23,650 7D, KH, AS, 2H, QC. 535 00:27:28,170 --> 00:27:31,320 This left to right approach for me didn't create 536 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,340 the right kind of effective visual shortcut 537 00:27:35,340 --> 00:27:38,940 that an argument map creates going from top 538 00:27:38,940 --> 00:27:42,480 to bottom vertical rather than horizontal. 539 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,520 The horizontal approach didn't allow me 540 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,210 to do a quick scan and see what was missing 541 00:27:48,210 --> 00:27:51,120 and see what was related in the debate. 542 00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:55,440 My listening lesson is something that James Clear mentioned. 543 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,990 You rise to the level of your systems. 544 00:27:57,990 --> 00:28:00,300 In this case, my system and process 545 00:28:00,300 --> 00:28:02,730 needed to be flipped 90 degrees 546 00:28:02,730 --> 00:28:05,460 to help me listen effectively to what was said 547 00:28:05,460 --> 00:28:08,310 and more importantly, what wasn't said. 548 00:28:08,310 --> 00:28:12,840 Let's join Sasan now as he explores a little bit further 549 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,790 how to build a visual argument map. 550 00:28:14,790 --> 00:28:16,350 - You're gonna write them all down. 551 00:28:16,350 --> 00:28:19,050 And, Oscar, we talked about this and you said 552 00:28:19,050 --> 00:28:21,060 that you had a shorthand for that, 553 00:28:21,060 --> 00:28:25,710 a two letter shorthand where 7S means seven of spades. 554 00:28:25,710 --> 00:28:27,960 That is exactly what you should be doing, 555 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:29,880 but it's not just about are you able 556 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:31,860 to write down every card that I set, 557 00:28:31,860 --> 00:28:35,430 the exercise goes on and the next step of the exercise 558 00:28:35,430 --> 00:28:36,840 is now I'm the second speaker 559 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,200 and I might not even go in the same speaking order. 560 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,810 I might not touch on things and I'll skip things. 561 00:28:42,810 --> 00:28:47,730 And the skill challenge is to stay organized 562 00:28:47,730 --> 00:28:50,610 and finish with this visual representation. 563 00:28:50,610 --> 00:28:53,079 For example, once you're through a whole debate 564 00:28:53,079 --> 00:28:54,990 and you have five columns filled, 565 00:28:54,990 --> 00:28:59,070 you'll be able to tell even when this card example 566 00:28:59,070 --> 00:29:03,123 where we're just talking about an abstract imaginary debate, 567 00:29:04,050 --> 00:29:07,440 which point was raised that got talked about 568 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:12,440 at every opportunity, what was raised by the first debater 569 00:29:13,530 --> 00:29:16,980 that the second debater failed to respond to. 570 00:29:16,980 --> 00:29:20,310 And the first debater caught it and brought that up. 571 00:29:20,310 --> 00:29:21,960 That you can visually tell. 572 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,280 What got not responded to 573 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,830 and then nobody ever brought it up again. 574 00:29:25,830 --> 00:29:29,100 And these skills are important in debate 575 00:29:29,100 --> 00:29:33,750 because the less a point is responded to, 576 00:29:33,750 --> 00:29:36,000 the less resistance there is in that path 577 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,580 to convincing the judge that your point is right. 578 00:29:38,580 --> 00:29:43,080 It becomes really important to us in a regular discussion 579 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,320 if you and I are just having a conversation about tracking 580 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,500 in schools, you might tell me a little bit about 581 00:29:49,500 --> 00:29:51,960 Sydney's system and what's effective about it 582 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:53,310 and what's not effective about it. 583 00:29:53,310 --> 00:29:54,780 And I'll latch onto one bit of that 584 00:29:54,780 --> 00:29:56,940 and I'll say this thing that you said 585 00:29:56,940 --> 00:29:59,190 that is effective about it, we have some version 586 00:29:59,190 --> 00:30:02,160 of that in New York, but it's not working the same way. 587 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,770 And I think it's maybe for these three reasons. 588 00:30:04,770 --> 00:30:06,900 And then you'll latch onto one of those three reasons 589 00:30:06,900 --> 00:30:09,540 and you'll say, here's what I think that actually is. 590 00:30:09,540 --> 00:30:12,450 And there's all these things in a natural conversation 591 00:30:12,450 --> 00:30:16,500 that get introduced but don't get pursued farther. 592 00:30:16,500 --> 00:30:20,340 And the two parties, or at least one of the parties 593 00:30:20,340 --> 00:30:23,880 tends to forget they were ever brought up. 594 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,730 And the skill set that you get trained in debate 595 00:30:26,730 --> 00:30:30,990 is to not lose that perspective and to be able 596 00:30:30,990 --> 00:30:34,500 to look at a sheet of paper and be able to tell, 597 00:30:34,500 --> 00:30:36,360 am I winning this argument 598 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,790 in terms of whatever this sheet of paper represents? 599 00:30:38,790 --> 00:30:40,200 Do I have an advantage here? 600 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,030 Is this worth my focus? 601 00:30:42,030 --> 00:30:46,353 And in the context of debate, that is really helpful. 602 00:30:47,250 --> 00:30:51,240 - Your mind may have just exploded thinking about 603 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,273 all the permutations of this in your workplace. 604 00:30:55,140 --> 00:30:56,940 Your takeaways are this. 605 00:30:56,940 --> 00:31:00,180 Don't take verbatim notes. 606 00:31:00,180 --> 00:31:03,720 Create a visual map that maps not only your position 607 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:04,563 but the other. 608 00:31:05,430 --> 00:31:08,400 And notice the progress of the positions. 609 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,810 If you take notes in a graphical, visual and shorthand way, 610 00:31:12,810 --> 00:31:17,010 your attention is not as distracted and hijacked 611 00:31:17,010 --> 00:31:19,740 when you're taking verbatim notes. 612 00:31:19,740 --> 00:31:21,540 There are some professions listening right now 613 00:31:21,540 --> 00:31:23,670 say we have to take verbatim notes. 614 00:31:23,670 --> 00:31:25,170 It's our professional standard. 615 00:31:25,170 --> 00:31:26,850 It's critical. 616 00:31:26,850 --> 00:31:28,500 This is true. 617 00:31:28,500 --> 00:31:31,380 There's not the context we're referencing. 618 00:31:31,380 --> 00:31:35,850 For those of you who need to allocate fixed resources 619 00:31:35,850 --> 00:31:39,240 and you need to get into a debate and have a manager 620 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,280 or director or vice president to give 621 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:45,360 some kind of a approval, take the time to map 622 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,380 what the possible counter arguments to your points are 623 00:31:49,380 --> 00:31:50,850 and do that in a visual way 624 00:31:50,850 --> 00:31:53,490 so you can keep track by scanning. 625 00:31:53,490 --> 00:31:55,530 The minute you give your attention 626 00:31:55,530 --> 00:31:58,140 to the notes you're taking, you're not listening 627 00:31:58,140 --> 00:32:00,990 to the other position in the conversation. 628 00:32:00,990 --> 00:32:03,450 This is a muscle we can all develop. 629 00:32:03,450 --> 00:32:05,490 How long do you think it takes us 630 00:32:05,490 --> 00:32:08,520 to develop this flow muscle? 631 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,140 - In the context of debate, 632 00:32:10,140 --> 00:32:12,930 but think of it in terms of athletic skill 633 00:32:12,930 --> 00:32:17,760 in your personal life, let's say a gym or jogging 634 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:19,830 versus a competitive environment. 635 00:32:19,830 --> 00:32:23,370 Building the muscle and the ability to do this. 636 00:32:23,370 --> 00:32:26,730 A lot of students start to get this down within three, 637 00:32:26,730 --> 00:32:31,730 four months of once a week practice for one debate a week. 638 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,830 And part of the reason it takes that length of time 639 00:32:34,830 --> 00:32:37,410 is because it's, they need that time 640 00:32:37,410 --> 00:32:41,130 to develop their own style of doing it. 641 00:32:41,130 --> 00:32:44,880 And to see a bunch of different scenarios, 642 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:46,980 it might take them a couple weeks to be able 643 00:32:46,980 --> 00:32:51,870 to map out one particular argument and discussion. 644 00:32:51,870 --> 00:32:54,690 But what happens is then the next argument 645 00:32:54,690 --> 00:32:56,670 and discussion doesn't go in the same way 646 00:32:56,670 --> 00:32:57,960 and doesn't work the same way. 647 00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,310 And so all of a sudden you're back 648 00:32:59,310 --> 00:33:01,408 to trying to figure it out. 649 00:33:01,408 --> 00:33:03,600 I'd say after about four months, you are in a place where, 650 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,850 okay, you've probably experienced most 651 00:33:05,850 --> 00:33:07,860 of the cases for this. 652 00:33:07,860 --> 00:33:11,700 In a competitive setting, I think it takes probably about 653 00:33:11,700 --> 00:33:14,580 two years for it to no longer play a factor 654 00:33:14,580 --> 00:33:16,830 in who wins or loses. 655 00:33:16,830 --> 00:33:19,830 The reason for that is the difference between 656 00:33:19,830 --> 00:33:24,240 your physical abilities in exercising for health 657 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,670 and how long it takes for you to get comfortable 658 00:33:26,670 --> 00:33:29,550 jogging for health and then how long it takes 659 00:33:29,550 --> 00:33:33,660 for you to be competent jogging competitively. 660 00:33:33,660 --> 00:33:37,530 In debate, we're not just keeping track of notes 661 00:33:37,530 --> 00:33:39,540 to keep track of what was said. 662 00:33:39,540 --> 00:33:42,360 We are keeping track of notes because the other side 663 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,240 is trying to push our limits in how much 664 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:49,470 we can handle competitive academic college debates. 665 00:33:49,470 --> 00:33:53,220 They do tend to be faster than regular conversation. 666 00:33:53,220 --> 00:33:55,230 I'd say it takes a couple years to the point 667 00:33:55,230 --> 00:34:00,090 where note-taking is no longer the determining factor 668 00:34:00,090 --> 00:34:01,500 in who wins the debate. 669 00:34:01,500 --> 00:34:04,020 But in terms of the ability to engage 670 00:34:04,020 --> 00:34:07,326 in that note-taking style effectively, 671 00:34:07,326 --> 00:34:10,050 I'd say two to four months. 672 00:34:10,050 --> 00:34:12,980 - What's the question I haven't asked 673 00:34:12,980 --> 00:34:15,720 at the intersection of debate and listening? 674 00:34:15,720 --> 00:34:19,110 - The motivation for why you're listening 675 00:34:19,110 --> 00:34:22,770 and how that shapes the quality of your listening. 676 00:34:22,770 --> 00:34:24,450 There's a lot in your book about listening 677 00:34:24,450 --> 00:34:29,450 to understand meaning and intent and context and feelings. 678 00:34:29,700 --> 00:34:32,546 And in the context of a debate, 679 00:34:32,546 --> 00:34:35,130 those things will only matter to me 680 00:34:35,130 --> 00:34:37,680 if I think they will matter to the judge, 681 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,770 and I usually don't think they will matter to a judge. 682 00:34:40,770 --> 00:34:43,440 In other words, my concern isn't what you meant, 683 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,270 my concern is what you said 684 00:34:45,270 --> 00:34:48,810 because I'm not debating against your intention. 685 00:34:48,810 --> 00:34:52,440 More so than that, in academic debate, 686 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,880 the sides are, you prepare both sides of the topic 687 00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,700 and you're told in this round you're going 688 00:34:59,700 --> 00:35:01,620 to advocate for this side. 689 00:35:01,620 --> 00:35:06,620 So it's less often a exercise in that form of empathy 690 00:35:07,860 --> 00:35:10,530 for another human being's intentions. 691 00:35:10,530 --> 00:35:13,800 It's more a question of what are the things 692 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,360 that you are saying? 693 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,604 I would've been surprised if we had never talked about 694 00:35:18,604 --> 00:35:20,940 that distinction. 695 00:35:20,940 --> 00:35:23,910 But also I think there's a lot to be said about 696 00:35:23,910 --> 00:35:28,530 the ways in which the kind of listening we use 697 00:35:28,530 --> 00:35:33,530 for a debate setting aren't productive in every setting. 698 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:39,930 - What a masterclass. 699 00:35:39,930 --> 00:35:42,213 I wonder what you are taking away from today. 700 00:35:43,335 --> 00:35:45,930 I wonder what's different in your thinking about 701 00:35:45,930 --> 00:35:50,250 note taking, preparing for both sides of the debate 702 00:35:50,250 --> 00:35:54,600 and the importance of listening and speaking 703 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,660 while you're in a situation where you need 704 00:35:57,660 --> 00:36:00,723 to debate something and to make progress. 705 00:36:01,650 --> 00:36:04,620 I'm curious, what did you take away from today? 706 00:36:04,620 --> 00:36:08,130 Email me, podcast@oscartrimboli.com. 707 00:36:08,130 --> 00:36:11,160 That's, podcast@oscartrimboli.com 708 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,551 with the subject line, debate. 709 00:36:14,551 --> 00:36:17,250 I'm curious what's changed in your thinking 710 00:36:17,250 --> 00:36:20,910 with regard to note taking especially. 711 00:36:20,910 --> 00:36:23,790 I'm also curious about what it means for you 712 00:36:23,790 --> 00:36:27,270 in terms of preparing both sides of the debate. 713 00:36:27,270 --> 00:36:30,393 Just a couple of tips to improve your visual note taking. 714 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,480 Practice and practice frequency 715 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,540 is a point that Sasan reinforced. 716 00:36:36,540 --> 00:36:37,830 If you wanna make improvements, 717 00:36:37,830 --> 00:36:41,040 you've gotta increase the accuracy of your practice 718 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,620 as well as the frequency of your practice. 719 00:36:43,620 --> 00:36:46,020 So I would recommend practice this first 720 00:36:46,020 --> 00:36:49,020 in a one-on-one environment, in an environment 721 00:36:49,020 --> 00:36:51,030 where you've got high trust 722 00:36:51,030 --> 00:36:54,300 and it's a low risk conversation taking place, 723 00:36:54,300 --> 00:36:59,010 then move to a low risk environment. 724 00:36:59,010 --> 00:37:03,240 Maybe the trust isn't high, but maybe it's a little lower. 725 00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:08,240 And then finally, practice in high trust environments 726 00:37:08,670 --> 00:37:12,019 where groups are present because you are listening 727 00:37:12,019 --> 00:37:17,019 and your note taking, start small and then expand out 728 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,473 till you eventually get to group meetings. 729 00:37:20,670 --> 00:37:23,100 There's a couple of additional podcast episodes, 730 00:37:23,100 --> 00:37:27,510 episode 36 with Justice Michael Kirby, 731 00:37:27,510 --> 00:37:29,880 how to listen like a high court justice 732 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,373 where he talked about using a tree. 733 00:37:33,690 --> 00:37:38,490 The tree was having the trunk as the center of the argument, 734 00:37:38,490 --> 00:37:41,460 the branches, the supporting arguments and the leaves, 735 00:37:41,460 --> 00:37:43,980 important pieces of evidence 736 00:37:43,980 --> 00:37:48,690 equally reinforcing the importance of visualization 737 00:37:48,690 --> 00:37:52,650 and using visual approaches to help you 738 00:37:52,650 --> 00:37:54,690 is Dr. Boris Conrad. 739 00:37:54,690 --> 00:37:57,900 And he's a world memory champion. 740 00:37:57,900 --> 00:38:02,900 He's episode 65 where you can explore some techniques 741 00:38:04,350 --> 00:38:08,010 that he reinforces about not being a stenographer, 742 00:38:08,010 --> 00:38:10,653 but being a visual note taker. 743 00:38:11,850 --> 00:38:13,770 There's no shortage of resources 744 00:38:13,770 --> 00:38:15,690 to support you in your listening journey. 745 00:38:15,690 --> 00:38:17,970 If you'd love to get access 746 00:38:17,970 --> 00:38:21,270 to important techniques like note-taking, 747 00:38:21,270 --> 00:38:23,580 we have a fundamentals course. 748 00:38:23,580 --> 00:38:25,655 If you'd like to be added to the wait list 749 00:38:25,655 --> 00:38:29,821 for the fundamentals course, which we have once a quarter 750 00:38:29,821 --> 00:38:34,200 in groups of 10 to 12, no more, no less, 751 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,660 so that we can practice our listening together, 752 00:38:36,660 --> 00:38:40,140 just send me an email podcast@oscartrimboli.com 753 00:38:40,140 --> 00:38:43,113 with a subject line, fundamentals. 754 00:38:44,730 --> 00:38:46,260 I'm Oscar Trimboli and along 755 00:38:46,260 --> 00:38:49,080 with the Deep Listening ambassador community, 756 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,810 we're on a quest to create 100 million deep listeners 757 00:38:51,810 --> 00:38:53,640 in the workplace and you've given us 758 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,200 the greatest gift of all. 759 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:56,910 You've listened to us. 760 00:38:56,910 --> 00:38:57,960 Thanks for listening. 761 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:04,770 - What did you do right in that debate 762 00:39:04,770 --> 00:39:06,420 and what did he do wrong? 763 00:39:06,420 --> 00:39:11,420 - Oh, I listened to him and he didn't listen. 764 00:39:11,790 --> 00:39:12,900 He spent most of the debate. 765 00:39:12,900 --> 00:39:14,430 I had Matt Taibbi on my side. 766 00:39:14,430 --> 00:39:16,500 He had Michelle Goldberg on his. 767 00:39:16,500 --> 00:39:18,037 I said to one point to Matt, 768 00:39:18,037 --> 00:39:20,340 "What's Malcolm Gladwell writing?" 769 00:39:20,340 --> 00:39:23,100 He spent the whole time scribbling on this pad 770 00:39:23,100 --> 00:39:26,190 and then would say something utterly inane. 771 00:39:26,190 --> 00:39:27,660 He would say something he'd already said. 772 00:39:27,660 --> 00:39:30,930 It was so preposterous and we were bored of it 773 00:39:30,930 --> 00:39:33,510 and the audience was groaning. 774 00:39:33,510 --> 00:39:36,165 I actually said to him, it's very weird 775 00:39:36,165 --> 00:39:38,580 seeing you try to debate, Malcolm, 776 00:39:38,580 --> 00:39:42,420 because you listen to nothing we say, nothing. 777 00:39:42,420 --> 00:39:45,810 And in his sort of post match analysis, some months later, 778 00:39:45,810 --> 00:39:48,310 he said, "I should have listened to my opponents." 779 00:39:51,398 --> 00:39:54,315 (thoughtful music)