1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:25,360 And this is the one I feel like when I'm meeting with landowners and, you know, helping them put together a management strategy on their land, this is probably the one I spend the most time talking through and trying to get them to envision what we're trying to accomplish in terms of a blueprint across the property, you know, why we are arranging things in a particular way, and it's related to the connectivity. 2 00:00:26,240 --> 00:00:34,480 And one area that I think that a lot of hunters overlook how beneficial that they could be to the turkeys on their property or their food plots. 3 00:00:34,480 --> 00:00:48,640 Welcome to Wild Turkey Science, a podcast made possible by Turkeys for Tomorrow. 4 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,880 I'm Dr. Marcus Lashley, professor of wildlife ecology at the University of Florida. 5 00:00:55,160 --> 00:01:00,120 And I'm Dr. Will Goolsby, professor of wildlife ecology and management at Auburn University. 6 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:07,360 We're both lifelong hunters and devoted scientists who are passionate about hunting, managing and researching wild turkeys. 7 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:17,400 In this podcast, we'll explore turkey research, speak to the experts in the field and address the difficult questions related to wild turkey ecology and management. 8 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:22,240 Our goal is to serve as your connection to wild turkey science. 9 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:42,440 You know, you and I were kind of talking earlier about what we're going to discuss today, and it is pretty apparent from the survey responses that we've had so far that folks never really get enough of us talking about habitat management and what they could potentially do to their land. 10 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:50,800 And so, you know, we would just, we would just kind of, you know, bounce some, some ideas and some thoughts back and forth on that today. 11 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,640 No, I think that's a good idea. 12 00:01:54,640 --> 00:02:04,360 And particularly, you know, our recent episode where we got into monitoring folks, it's obviously really important this time of year. 13 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:09,280 And that's also something that I still get probably the majority of the questions about. 14 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:17,440 So I think it would be a good idea to talk about habitat management from that point of view, at least part of the time as well. 15 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:18,920 Absolutely. 16 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:36,080 So starting with, starting out with that, you know, we're kind of, I mean, pretty much everywhere, except maybe, you know, if you get into the extreme Northern part of the country or, you know, Southern Canada, most poults are getting pretty big by now. 17 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:36,920 Right. 18 00:02:36,920 --> 00:02:46,480 So that specialized, you know, vegetation that we talk about them needing a lot on, on this show is not as important to them right now. 19 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:48,080 I'm not saying it's not, it's unimportant. 20 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:49,360 It's not as important. 21 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,160 Um, but it will be important again next year. 22 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:58,600 And so I feel like if we're going to talk about habitat for turkeys, we always have to start with brooding habitat. 23 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:18,320 And, um, as far as that goes, the lowest hanging fruit that I see on the vast majority of properties is that the open areas, like their food plots and their roadsides and powerline right-of-ways, gasline right-of-ways, odd areas as Craig calls them, you know, fruit tree orchards, whatever. 24 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:25,920 Any area that has enough sunlight that it could probably grow grass is that it's growing exotic grass. 25 00:03:25,920 --> 00:03:26,600 Yeah. 26 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:40,280 And so this is something that people that even, you know, if they lease land, they can get out there with an herbicide and, you know, change that plant community that is preexisting. 27 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,120 They don't have to cut any trees or anything like that into something that's more usable by turkeys. 28 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:48,160 Yeah, I think that you're exactly right. 29 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:50,360 That is a low hanging fruit. 30 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:55,640 It's also, if you remember our episode where we were talking about what if I don't own land? 31 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:56,320 Yeah. 32 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:01,320 It's also air area that you could target on those places. 33 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:01,960 A long time ago. 34 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:02,520 Yeah. 35 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:03,080 Yeah. 36 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:03,640 Yeah. 37 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:04,760 It's been a while. 38 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:07,920 I'm sure we have a few folks that weren't listening back then. 39 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:09,000 They're listening now. 40 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:09,440 Yeah. 41 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:09,720 Yeah. 42 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:11,600 Well, our audience is definitely growing. 43 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:17,720 I don't know if they, if our new audience has, uh, you know, gone back through all the 44 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:22,920 episodes or not, but we did have an episode if you're in that boat that we kind of tried to 45 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:27,680 unpack the issue of, I don't own land, I lease it, so I'm limited. 46 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:29,840 What are things I can do to improve habitat? 47 00:04:29,840 --> 00:04:30,600 Right. 48 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:37,160 I think for brooding cover, you know, that might be one of the opportunities that you have more 49 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,960 opportunity in that situation to affect. 50 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:46,680 So one thing, this is going to be kind of a sidebar, but it's sort of similar. 51 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:51,800 It was just posed to me yesterday by a local up in Northern Michigan. 52 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:58,920 Um, and he, he asked me, I forgot how he phrased it, but he was asking me what was 53 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:05,360 limiting Turkey populations essentially, and why we see differences in populations in 54 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:06,160 different places. 55 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:12,200 And one of the things he asked me about folks, and I think we've talked to a few people 56 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:18,760 about this and, and data suggests that the pull for him ratios are usually much higher 57 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:19,360 in the Northern. 58 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,600 Yeah, I think that tends to be true. 59 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:30,080 So then I I've been contemplating that, and I'm just curious, what, do you have any 60 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:35,840 reaction to why they might be quite a bit higher in the Northern part of the range? 61 00:05:35,840 --> 00:05:36,960 So the Southern part. 62 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,080 I don't know, Mark. 63 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,840 There's something that comes to mind, but I feel like. 64 00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:47,480 I've been going all around and there's plenty of predators around. 65 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:48,240 Yeah. 66 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:52,720 And I also don't see a lot of what I would consider high quality brooding cover. 67 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:53,680 Yeah. 68 00:05:53,680 --> 00:06:00,680 But then I'm like, well, what, why would their pull for him ratio be higher? 69 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,040 I had a facetious answer. 70 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:04,160 Okay. 71 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:04,600 What's that? 72 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,240 They don't bait as much up there. 73 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,800 Oh, that is not, that is not the case. 74 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,320 I know that is not the case for the state that you're in. 75 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:15,120 Absolutely. 76 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,120 Um, that was my facetious answer. 77 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,960 My more serious answer now that I've had a little bit of time to think about it is I 78 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:27,520 wonder if it doesn't have something to do with the fact that they're growing season is so 79 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:28,160 much shorter. 80 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,080 And so succession takes longer to occur. 81 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:37,200 Thus, if you have an area that is in the early successional cover that oftentimes 82 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:42,000 supports brooding is necessary to support brooding, that it will be a more long lasting 83 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:46,480 feature on the landscape than it would be say in Alabama or Florida where we've got, 84 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,560 you know, a 10 month growing season or a nine month growing season, or even a 12 85 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:52,920 month, you know, down into peninsula Florida. 86 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,720 Yeah, I can see that. 87 00:06:55,720 --> 00:07:03,760 And I've been noticing places that have been cut, you know, that it's impressive how 88 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,040 slow succession is occurring compared to what I'm used to. 89 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:07,400 Yeah. 90 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:08,160 Yeah. 91 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:13,840 So I could see that happening, but I also contemplated another answer and I know, say, 92 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,160 you know, we're on a sidebar, but it is related here. 93 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:23,200 It's still habitat related, but I started thinking, you know, we focus a lot on bolts 94 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:30,880 and when we're thinking about exposure with cold temperatures and maybe less, or 95 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:37,440 I would say most people don't immediately go into extreme heat temperature exposure. 96 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:44,440 And then I started wondering, I wonder if that is a big difference because here it's 97 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:52,040 not getting, you know, really hot on any day, basically on brooding. 98 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:52,800 Right. 99 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:57,760 Not compared to, you know, what the average temperature is basically daily. 100 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:02,040 And particularly at night, the temperatures are quite a bit cooler here 101 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:03,800 than what I'm accustomed to. 102 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:11,560 So I started wondering, I wonder if we're kind of on that other side of the, the 103 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:17,520 thermo neutral zone where, yeah, if you had a cold snap, that could be a real 104 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,280 problem, but it's usually not getting too hot. 105 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:27,320 Maybe it's often getting too hot for West and South, making that vegetation 106 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:28,920 structure way more important. 107 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:30,800 Yeah, maybe so. 108 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:35,040 But I think the other important thing to keep in mind too, is a lot of times we fall 109 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:39,040 into this fallacy of thinking that it has to be one thing when the reality is that 110 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,240 it's probably multiple contributing factors. 111 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,360 So, you know, you start thinking about everything that's different between here 112 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:48,520 and there, and you've got different land uses, different, you know, successional 113 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,720 trajectories, like we talked about, different species composition, different 114 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:57,720 invasives, both plant and animal, you know, like think about feral pigs, um, in the 115 00:08:57,720 --> 00:08:59,320 South compared to the Northeast. 116 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:05,920 I mean, just so many things that you can stack up and add, um, that would make it 117 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,560 reasonable for there to be a difference between the North and the South. 118 00:09:08,560 --> 00:09:09,680 Right. 119 00:09:09,680 --> 00:09:12,880 Yeah, that's a good point. 120 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:21,200 Anyway, well, how, how do you, what, I guess, uh, if you're thinking about the 121 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:28,680 typical place, you know, that you're going to try to improve brooding cover, you 122 00:09:28,680 --> 00:09:34,520 talked about the areas that are often, we'll say neglected, that could be improved. 123 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:39,960 So what, how are you going through your thought process when you're trying to 124 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:44,360 evaluate where am I going to focus my efforts? 125 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:44,880 Yeah. 126 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:49,360 So if I'm on a property where turkeys are a management priority, I'm going to, I'm 127 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:57,840 going to focus that on all of the open areas on the property, I think. 128 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:06,120 Um, and, and one area that I think that a lot of hunters overlook how beneficial 129 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,000 that they could be to the turkeys on their property or their food plots. 130 00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:15,200 Um, and specifically what I mean is on the average hunting club, you know, what 131 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:16,600 do people do with their food plots? 132 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,360 They plant them in fall, they hunt them through the end of deer season. 133 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:25,100 And then they, especially if they're not turkey hunters, they don't look at them 134 00:10:25,100 --> 00:10:27,360 again until they come back and plant them in fall, right? 135 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:28,560 Yeah. 136 00:10:28,560 --> 00:10:31,680 I mean, maybe they come out a couple of days during summer and mess around with 137 00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:33,160 tree stands and stuff like that. 138 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,680 But other than that, they're probably not doing much with the food plot. 139 00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:37,520 So one of the things... 140 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:41,680 Other than maybe driving past them when they're on the property or something. 141 00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:45,000 Not necessarily paying attention to what they look like. 142 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:45,840 Yeah. 143 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:52,200 So if you're not planning a warm season food plot, there is no reason, if you're 144 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,840 not planning a warm season crop, you're only planning cool season annual plants 145 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,480 in your food plots, there is no reason that you should not be managing for 146 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:01,960 brooding cover during the summertime. 147 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:03,400 Do you agree? 148 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:10,200 I think that's an obvious way that you can integrate your 149 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:11,440 deer and turkey management. 150 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:12,320 Right. 151 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,520 And the biggest problem that you're probably going to initially face when 152 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:20,600 trying to manage food plots for turkey brooding cover is ryegrass. 153 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,360 And we've talked about ryegrass quite a bit on here. 154 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:24,200 At least in the deep South. 155 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:25,920 Yeah. 156 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:30,480 And in the deep South, but then like, as you go further north, you're probably 157 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:34,280 going to have problems with like fescue and orchard grass and smooth brome. 158 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:35,720 And those are going to be a challenge. 159 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:40,760 Luckily, if you get the timing of application right, you can just use like 160 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:47,000 a generic glyphosate-based herbicide and deal with a lot of those cool 161 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:48,440 season grasses pretty easily. 162 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:53,800 And, you know, generally speaking, if you're spraying cool season grasses, 163 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,520 the best time to do it is when they start, you know, actively growing. 164 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,800 They're young and have vigorous growth in the fall. 165 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:05,480 And then if you have warm season exotic grasses, the ideal time is going to be 166 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:07,440 when they're young and vigorously growing in the spring. 167 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:09,360 That's when the best time to apply is. 168 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:17,720 Well, I think, you know, it may be a good time to talk about when you're using 169 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,880 herbicides to control something like that. 170 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:28,800 I think those plants are particularly problematic for you to reach your 171 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,760 objectives if it is, you know, if your objectives are relating to brooding 172 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,640 cover, those are particularly problematic. 173 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:41,600 And then, you know, if you don't take some effort to control them, it's going 174 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,080 to be very difficult for you to get to your objective. 175 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:44,800 Yeah. 176 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:53,880 So that's not to say we're necessarily trying to broadcast herbicide all the time. 177 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:59,040 I know, uh, there've been several people that have contacted me concerned about 178 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:05,520 that, but it may be necessary one time or some species multiple times 179 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,480 to get it under control. 180 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,160 And then the idea is you're trying to get to a place where you 181 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:11,520 don't need herbicide all the time. 182 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:12,240 Yeah. 183 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,520 Yeah. 184 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:18,760 I mean, I don't, I don't get any enjoyment out of having to put herbicide out. 185 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,200 And it's an expense for me, right. 186 00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:25,560 But it's a tool that I'm not afraid to use either. 187 00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:27,720 That's the way I look at it. 188 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:36,120 That I've run into this so many times where people talk about, you know, wanting 189 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:42,760 to improve brooding cover and then they just stop mowing their grass patch. 190 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:43,320 Yeah. 191 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:50,160 And it kind of starts getting rough and it's probably better than, uh, than 192 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:56,360 it just being a solid map of grass, but you know, the grass is still a problem. 193 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:00,720 If it's a patch underneath, you know, your, your forward cover or 194 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:02,560 whatever's regenerating in there. 195 00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:03,320 Yeah. 196 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,560 Well, and that's still a problem. 197 00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:09,680 So that, that is a really good, I think an important point. 198 00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:15,760 And I have had people, you know, reach out to me and say, you know, in reference 199 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,960 to us talking about managing brooding cover with herbicides, I've had people 200 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,720 reach out and say, um, well, hasn't there been some paper, haven't there 201 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,000 been some papers published that show a negative effect of glyphosate on 202 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,680 pollinator communities, which of course, you know, pollinator communities would 203 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:32,680 make up a portion of the wild turkey's prey base. 204 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,720 I'm not familiar with that literature. 205 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:40,120 Um, maybe there are papers out there that have shown that, but the way that I... 206 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,640 There certainly are with some, some chemicals. 207 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:48,680 Yeah, but then, but then the way that I responded to that, to that message 208 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:53,000 was that very well may be the case, but I think what's more important is for 209 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,520 us to look at the net effect, right? 210 00:14:55,520 --> 00:15:01,520 And I have seen many fescue fields, Bahia grass fields and Bermuda grass 211 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:07,960 fields that were converted to a native grass for mixture using herbicide. 212 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:14,080 And there is absolutely no question that the pollinators, the insects and the 213 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,680 overall native biodiversity benefited from that application. 214 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:18,280 Yeah. 215 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,920 You have a higher plant diversity and higher insect diversity. 216 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:24,240 That's obvious when you're... 217 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:25,120 No question. 218 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:26,320 No question. 219 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,720 I mean, just think about the amount of insects that you see on a Bermuda grass 220 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:36,320 hay field versus a field that's full of wildflowers, you know, and those 221 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,000 are the main species that we face. 222 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,680 If you're, if you're a turkey manager and you manage turkey habitat, you have no 223 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:48,040 excuse not to be able to identify, you know, fescue, Bahia grass, if you're in 224 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:53,440 the Southeast, Bermuda grass, if you're in the Southeast, um, what am I missing 225 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:53,960 Marcus? 226 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:58,480 Those are the ryegrass, obviously we've talked a lot about. 227 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:07,640 Yeah, the Bermuda, Bahia, ryegrass are the ones that I'm encountering by far. 228 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:07,840 Yeah. 229 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:12,400 Fescue as you get more into the Mid-South and then further North. 230 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,880 And I see orchard grass, a fair amount in that Mid-South region as well. 231 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:17,360 Yeah. 232 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,000 And so those were the main ones that you need to be able, be able to 233 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:22,480 identify and that we're targeting. 234 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:29,080 Um, Plateau can be a really good herbicide to use in, in battling some 235 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:30,800 of those exotic pasture grasses. 236 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:35,560 Um, Plateau does have some residual soil activity, so it'll help you out in that 237 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:36,080 regard. 238 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:41,720 Glyphosate tends to be my go-to chemical for most of our, um, most of our perennial 239 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:42,920 cool season grasses. 240 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:51,520 Um, Escort is what I typically use for Bahia grass, and then Arsenal is what I 241 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:53,320 typically use for Bermuda grass. 242 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:59,800 Um, but just, you know, beware of that if you're spraying under, under, um, non 243 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,160 pines, you know, if you're, you could, you could potentially damage them with 244 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,840 the Arsenal and some of the other, some of the others too. 245 00:17:07,360 --> 00:17:13,560 Well, now, you know, even so, uh, we've, we've talked to a few people, it seems to 246 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:20,320 be a really contentious issue with, with, uh, in the community right now, uh, with 247 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:29,680 this regenerative approach and, you know, a lot of people, well, I guess part of 248 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,320 that approach includes excluding chemicals like herbicides. 249 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:40,520 So I think that's one thing that we need to work on and see what the trade-offs 250 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:44,920 are, right, because I think you're, most people that are engaged in that have a 251 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:46,520 different set of objectives. 252 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:47,240 Yeah, they are. 253 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:52,600 They might want to, to get, you know, turkey brooding cover out of it or, or 254 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:57,120 whatever else out of it, but it doesn't seem to be the overarching objective of 255 00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:01,200 someone transitioning specifically to that practice. 256 00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:04,880 Yeah, I think you have people that are, that are transitioning to it just to 257 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:09,240 reduce their input costs and that you have other people that are doing it, you 258 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:14,480 know, more so for the environmental objectives or the health objectives. 259 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:15,600 Yeah. 260 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:20,840 And I'm not, uh, casting shade on anybody, but if your objective is poult 261 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:28,720 rearing cover and you have a problematic plant in that mix, you know, in the 262 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:34,920 plant community dominating like Bermuda, yeah, you know, you, it may require some 263 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:41,880 action to take care of it and, and, you know, maybe it, it takes some action up 264 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:46,360 front and then you transition away from it over time because you get rid of the 265 00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:46,760 problem. 266 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:53,160 So I think there's a lot of work to be done on, on this deal, you know, in trying 267 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,800 to figure out how to integrate turkey management into that approach. 268 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,640 But I do feel like since we've talked about it recently and we've got a number 269 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:05,720 of comments from people about that topic, uh, people would probably want us to 270 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,000 cover it here, especially when we're talking about using herbicides. 271 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:09,800 Yeah. 272 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:14,480 And the way that I'm looking at it right now, as far as, you know, the region ag, 273 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,840 I look at it as, um, I'm glad people are doing it. 274 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,600 I'm glad people are discovering these new tools and techniques because those are 275 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,880 more tools and techniques that I have in my toolbox that I can choose from to try 276 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:26,280 to accomplish my objectives. 277 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,520 I'm not, I'm not the type of person that I'm going to go out and do regenerative 278 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:35,960 ag just for regenerative ag sake, but if regenerative ag can better help me 279 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:42,960 create turkey habitat, or at least it can create just as good of turkey habitat at 280 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:47,280 a lower cost than conventional agriculture, a hundred percent, you know, 281 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,800 why, why would I not use the regenerative practice? 282 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:54,680 Well, and you, you were talking about, uh, a few minutes ago, trying to kind of 283 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:59,960 fall in, in this trap of trying to point to one thing that it is or isn't. 284 00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:01,040 Well, we do the same thing. 285 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,360 Well, you're not trying, you don't necessarily have to go all in, right? 286 00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:08,960 Maybe you pick a few places that you do one thing where maybe you've got a few 287 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,720 region plots and you've got a few other ones that you're going to do intensively 288 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:17,440 and deliberately trying to produce full cover regardless of how you have to go about that. 289 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:17,880 Yeah. 290 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:22,240 And looking back at some of the comments that people made on that, on those region 291 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:26,000 ag episodes, it seemed like that was one of their major frustrations is that we 292 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:30,640 were framing it as a black and white thing, like you either did regen or you 293 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,720 didn't, um, that was never our intent. 294 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,360 In fact, our intent was to start by explaining what it was kind of 295 00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:39,200 from like a purist perspective. 296 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:45,800 And then like what is, what is the entire practice at, if you implemented 297 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:46,880 every part of the strategy? 298 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:52,600 Yeah, but we fully recognize and think, you know, people should be, you know, 299 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,240 picking and choosing those practices to help meet their objectives. 300 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,640 We were never suggesting that it was an all or nothing proposition. 301 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,640 I think more so what we were trying to do is establish what it is before we started 302 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,760 talking about what we might do or not do with, you know, with it when 303 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:09,000 it came to managing turkeys. 304 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:10,200 Yeah. 305 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,160 Well, I have gotten feedback from a few people that are using 306 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:19,680 some version of that practice that have been concerned about 307 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,040 the structure during brooding. 308 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:21,880 Yeah. 309 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:26,280 You know that, and I'm very much still in the learning phase, but it's 310 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,320 something that, um, there are a lot of people interested in it and you know 311 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:34,480 how that goes when people get really interested in some sort of habitat 312 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,400 management strategy, you and I both do the same thing. 313 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,560 We start trying to learn as much as we can about it and then start 314 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:42,960 working on it in some cases. 315 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,440 And so what we may eventually find is that you can use regenerative ag 316 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,800 practices and still have quality brooding cover, but you have to change 317 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:57,640 something about the, you know, this, the blend that you plant in spring. 318 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,080 Maybe you reduce the seed population or something like that to leave 319 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:02,240 more bare ground between plants. 320 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:02,520 Right. 321 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:07,520 Or you change this, you tweak the suite of species or maybe the timing of 322 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,400 some of the key things that you're doing. 323 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:16,600 And, uh, so, and we've talked about that on the other episodes, but, uh, I felt 324 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,200 like when we're talking about field management, that's going to be on the 325 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,480 tip of a lot of people's mind because we just went through those, that series 326 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:30,040 recently and, uh, there are, you know, that is gaining, uh, gaining steam 327 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:31,520 in terms of interest for people. 328 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:32,320 Yeah. 329 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:39,840 So back to, um, after our little regen ag sidebar, um, you know, back to 330 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,720 talking about the food plots or the roadsides or whatever, you know, when 331 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,040 you start out managing those, if you have widespread problems with some of 332 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,960 those species that we mentioned, maybe it'll require a broadcast application, 333 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,120 but longer term, the hope would be that you can maintain those areas just by 334 00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:59,000 spot spraying, you know, a broad spectrum like glyphosate herbicide to just take 335 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,960 out, you know, it's like, oh, I had another, you know, fescue patch pop up 336 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,360 over here, I'm just going to go spray that one patch and I'm done. 337 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:11,880 Um, so the hope would be that over time, as you do this repeatedly, that 338 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:16,680 you're intentionally selecting for a species composition of desirable plants 339 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,500 so that there's less and less work to do. 340 00:23:18,500 --> 00:23:22,240 Yeah. 341 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,960 I think that that's the ultimate goal is to get it into a maintenance stage 342 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:32,880 where, you know, it requires the minimum amount of time and resources to accomplish 343 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,040 your objective structurally and compositionally. 344 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:35,920 Yeah. 345 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,360 I had a quick question for you. 346 00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:43,840 Uh, I would, I, it just popped into my head. 347 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:48,400 So for those out there, you know, just to kind of give you some context on what, 348 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:53,360 why I'm asking this, Will was doing some digging before the show and mentioned to 349 00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:58,440 me that he had found an old forum or something that Love It was, was on and 350 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,560 answering questions, which is really cool. 351 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,040 And yeah, we're going to have to explore that a lot. 352 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,880 In fact, uh, we were thinking about covering some of the Q and A stuff that 353 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:12,320 he did, and maybe if there's new things that new data that have emerged that 354 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:17,200 could change what, how he answered things back in those days, if you'd like us to 355 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,720 do that, reach out to us, let us know that. 356 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:20,400 Yeah. 357 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,840 Uh, because I think that might be a fun episode. 358 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,480 And I think, you know, some of our audience might appreciate something like that. 359 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:27,840 Well, I had the idea. 360 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,240 I was like, I'm going to put the questions to you and we'll see how Marcus answers 361 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:35,720 and see and see if he was right by comparing to Love It, but I don't 362 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:37,600 think Marcus was crazy about that idea. 363 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,000 Yeah. 364 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:45,960 Well, I obviously have a lot of humility because how many times have you asked me 365 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:52,600 things that I just completely don't know or get it wrong, but I just let that go 366 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:57,920 on the air, you know, I don't, I don't know everything there is to know, but I'm 367 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:02,480 trying my best to become as knowledgeable about every aspect of this as I can. 368 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:03,160 There you go. 369 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:08,480 And that's the process, but the reason I brought it up, I was curious to you. 370 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:15,640 Did you see him talking about polts or poultry and cover anything? 371 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:20,760 And he had those Q and a no, I didn't notice any of that because I know he did 372 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:26,240 a lot of that imprinting work and I, I started thinking about that because they. 373 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:33,480 They didn't have the, the wide range of tools in terms of chemicals at their 374 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:34,960 disposal that we do. 375 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:36,320 So I'm really curious. 376 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:37,400 That's a really good point. 377 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:44,600 What their suggestions were to people, you know, I know we could glean that from 378 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,040 some of the early literature and I, and I have read through some of that, but I 379 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,680 was just curious if you had seen it, you know, since you were just on that forum. 380 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:59,200 I didn't, but you know, what's really interesting about that is that I didn't 381 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,440 see much information at all about habitat management coming from him. 382 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,440 And I, and I don't know if that was just because that's not what people were 383 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,680 asking about, cause I don't remember seeing a lot of questions, particular, 384 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:11,120 you know, in particular about it either. 385 00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:15,960 But yeah, I didn't, I didn't see anything, any of his recommendations and you bring 386 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:20,080 up a good point, like they didn't have as many of the herbicide solutions that we 387 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,400 have now, but they also didn't have as many of the invasives as we have now. 388 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:24,520 That's right. 389 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,160 I was about to say that same thing. 390 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:26,920 Yeah. 391 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,640 They also probably weren't dealing with the same suite of particularly 392 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,080 sod forming grasses that we are now. 393 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:34,160 Yeah. 394 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:35,620 Yeah. 395 00:26:35,620 --> 00:26:40,760 Well, that'd be interesting to look into, but if folks out there are interested 396 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:45,440 in hearing us talk about, you know, finding resources like that, I started 397 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:50,680 wondering if they, if there were actually multiple forums that we could find on 398 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:56,360 multiple historical figures like that, where they were doing sort of a Q and A type thing. 399 00:26:56,360 --> 00:26:58,360 That'd be interesting to look into for sure. 400 00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:05,120 Um, so I went, so I went first with talking about, you know, killing the grass, let's 401 00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:08,800 say, uh, and stole that thunder from you. 402 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,720 So let's just, let's just continue with the theme. 403 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,720 And, um, so what's, what's going to be the next thing that you're going to look 404 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,760 at on the, on this hypothetical property? 405 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:21,000 In terms of like what I'm going to target? 406 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:21,780 Yeah. 407 00:27:21,780 --> 00:27:26,280 Well, I think one thing we we've brought it up and some of our guests 408 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,400 have brought it up multiple times. 409 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:36,720 Brooding cover can be accomplished in fields, but it also exists elsewhere. 410 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,460 Right. 411 00:27:38,460 --> 00:27:39,920 Or it can exist elsewhere. 412 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:46,240 And I think 100% look, looking at your forest management practices and, in 413 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,680 particular, making sure that you have some areas that have high sunlight 414 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:57,840 penetration to the forest floor and coupled with fire is a, another good way 415 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,720 that you can improve brooding cover. 416 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,120 And I think another advantage of that, depending on what stage it's in and 417 00:28:05,120 --> 00:28:10,960 the fire return interval, you can simultaneously be providing brooding 418 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,560 and nesting cover in close proximity. 419 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,580 Right. 420 00:28:15,580 --> 00:28:19,000 So that to me is another key thing. 421 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:24,200 It's not available to everybody because, you know, you may have a, you may not 422 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:29,400 own the land or some other suite of constraints that is keeping you from 423 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,960 just doing it optimally in terms of the distribution across the property. 424 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:39,000 But, you know, that's another key area to look. 425 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:47,320 I think in particular, I'm looking for areas that have, you know, at least 30% 426 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:53,400 penetration of sunlight, that could be much higher than that. 427 00:28:54,360 --> 00:29:00,440 And I'm thinking about a fire return interval, you know, that is essentially 428 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:07,640 perpetually keeping it dominated by herbaceous species and, you know, 429 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,040 preventing succession of... 430 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,880 Yeah, it's just alternating back and forth between brooding, nesting, brooding, 431 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,360 nesting, it never gets past that. 432 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:16,580 Right. 433 00:29:16,580 --> 00:29:21,360 And they typically, on most sites, the year of fire and sometimes the year 434 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:26,720 after fire, at least in the South, are pretty good brooding, structurally. 435 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:27,460 Yeah. 436 00:29:27,460 --> 00:29:33,800 And then a little bit longer in the interval, like the second year and third 437 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,520 year after fire, might be really good for nesting that might extend a little 438 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:44,280 bit longer in some places, and it may be relatively short in some places as 439 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,360 well, in terms of that time interval. 440 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:52,920 With really long growing seasons and high rainfall in productive soil, like 441 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:57,560 you see in some places in the deep cell, you know, the two-year return interval 442 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:02,360 is almost necessary to avoid transitioning, you know, into the 443 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:03,440 mid-story with your hardwood. 444 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:04,340 Yeah. 445 00:30:04,340 --> 00:30:09,000 I almost never, I almost never recommend that a landowner intentionally go three 446 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,320 years or more between burns in the Southeast when they're, when turkeys are 447 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:17,360 a priority, most of the time, it's going to be max two years, you know, as 448 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:18,840 fast as things grow down here. 449 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:20,340 Yeah. 450 00:30:20,340 --> 00:30:21,060 But I think that- 451 00:30:21,060 --> 00:30:26,640 But sometimes in poor soil productivity in particular, a little bit longer is fine. 452 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:27,620 Yeah. 453 00:30:27,620 --> 00:30:30,280 And then also, you know, if they have deer objectives too, there's some 454 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,880 potential reasons that you would let it go a little bit longer. 455 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,600 That's an important point to make, but I'm glad that you brought up, brought up 456 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:41,520 the topic of brooding cover in the woods too, I think that's super important. 457 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,920 Um, and the reason that I normally think of it as being important is just because 458 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,920 that typically represents most of the acreage, you know, that a landowner 459 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,960 has, unless there may be like an ag-heavy area or something like that. 460 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:58,440 Um, so it's like, yeah, that's going to be the bulk of your property. 461 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,040 Let's make sure that we've got some good brooding and nesting there. 462 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:06,480 Um, let's create more brooding and nesting, uh, and typically cutting 463 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,360 trees is the number one way for a landowner to do that on the average 464 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,440 property, cutting trees is what's going to be required to do that or cutting or 465 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,200 killing, I guess I should say, because we can, you know, we can use herbicide to 466 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,200 treat trees and reduce the canopy as well. 467 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,440 But the other reason- 468 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,200 Yeah, forest stand improvement is really effective in some scenarios. 469 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:31,000 But the other reason that just occurred to me right now for the first time, um, 470 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:36,480 is that I think it could be super useful because of a reason that you pointed out 471 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:41,360 earlier, which is that most people think about poults getting, or turkeys in 472 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,040 general, getting too cold and not too hot. 473 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:51,520 Um, but while we're on the topic of thinking about them getting too hot, if 474 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,400 you're on a property where the only place that brooding cover is provided is out in 475 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,640 the opening, out in the opening, during summertime, like we're in right now, 476 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:07,960 especially for a late hatch brood, the amount, the duration of, um, availability 477 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,720 of those areas to, to young poults is going to be very limited during the 478 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,640 summertime because it's so hot, right? 479 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:18,320 So if you think about, if you're providing, if you're providing some of that in the 480 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:23,280 woods too, especially if you're in a, in an area that's had forest stand improvement 481 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,400 and there's been like a variable retention harvest implemented, which all that means 482 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:33,120 is in some areas you have more trees in some areas you have fewer, and that pattern 483 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,080 naturally oftentimes creates itself when we go in and we start selectively 484 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,040 removing trees that aren't beneficial to turkeys because they grow in clumps. 485 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,800 So I'll kill a clump of sweetgums, for example, over here and have a lot of 486 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,720 sunlight, so I've got brooding plants, you know, plants that are conducive 487 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:49,880 to brooding cover there. 488 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,480 And over here I had a bunch of oaks, so I've got more shade because I retained 489 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:59,360 those, so now we've got a situation where, okay, the sun's getting up, it's 490 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,760 getting a little bit of hot, that hen moves into the adjacent woodland with 491 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:07,840 her poults, so they have some shade, but because you've created that additional 492 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:13,120 habitat within the woodlands, now they can continue to feed, which means that 493 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,640 they're still growing, they're still gaining mass, and they're still going 494 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,000 through that, they're still putting on those feathers that they need to fly. 495 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,200 And all that adds up to faster growth and development equals 496 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:26,480 more poults that survive. 497 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:27,840 That's right. 498 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:33,840 And there was some of Lovett's work that showed that how long it takes 499 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:41,840 birds to get to flight can vary, and, you know, the higher availability of 500 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:49,520 high quality, uh, food and less stressful on the animals, the faster you get to 501 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:54,640 flight in a, you know, day or two may make a big difference in survival. 502 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:55,360 Yeah. 503 00:33:55,360 --> 00:34:01,520 I mean, you think about it, like imagine if you weigh a quarter of a pound and 504 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:07,720 you can barely, yeah, you're a little quarter pounder, you're a quarter pounder 505 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:12,360 walking around in the woods, you can't even fly up in a tree at night, all that 506 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:18,160 kind of stuff, you know, one, two, three, four, a week, you know, like if we can 507 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:22,960 get a poult flighted in one week versus two weeks, you can imagine how profoundly 508 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:24,600 that would affect your rival probability. 509 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,320 Oh yeah, that could be, could be substantial. 510 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:35,240 So there was another thing that, while you were talking, it was 511 00:34:35,240 --> 00:34:42,080 it came to mind for me in a sort of that third step, and this is the one I, I, I 512 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,360 feel like when I'm meeting with landowners and, you know, helping them 513 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:50,880 put together a management strategy on their land, this is probably the one I 514 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:58,760 spend the most time talking through and trying to get them to envision what 515 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,800 we're trying to accomplish in terms of a blueprint across the property. 516 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:08,160 You know, why, where you're organ or arranging things in, in a particular way. 517 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,920 And it's related to the connectivity. 518 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:16,120 So if you have like what you were talking about, if you're on a two year 519 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,720 return interval, well, that naturally creates a situation where you have 520 00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:24,920 brooding cover the year of fire next to nesting cover the year after fire, and 521 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:26,960 they just kind of always switch places. 522 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,040 And if you're doing that across a large portion of the property, you're 523 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:34,360 not, and if you're doing that across a large portion of the upland, you know, 524 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,800 you're, you're sort of creating a situation where the nesting and 525 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:40,320 brooding are together and that's good. 526 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:46,320 But another thing that I think about quite a bit, and that it's been 527 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,720 influenced by several people over the years that are really knowledgeable 528 00:35:49,720 --> 00:35:57,240 about all this, is thinking about connectivity throughout the property. 529 00:35:57,240 --> 00:35:59,560 And maybe, you know, I run into this situation. 530 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:05,360 I'm sure you do where maybe you have a few upland pine, you know, plantation 531 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,000 type spots in this part of the property. 532 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,200 And then maybe you have some hardwoods and some fields and stuff 533 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:13,720 like that in between them. 534 00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:18,600 And then you have another patch where you can manage for a lower basal area. 535 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,120 You know, they're not connected across the property in other words. 536 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:26,360 So that's what I'm doing when I'm visiting with folks is trying to figure 537 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:32,640 out how can we connect areas, particularly with brooding cover, so that 538 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:39,600 a hen with a brood could get from one patch to another while never leaving 539 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,800 relatively high quality brooding cover. 540 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:50,680 And that could be accomplished in a few ways, but one that I am, I think 541 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:56,000 is often a good way to do that is to use your road systems with daylighting. 542 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,800 So basically you're just, you're just pushing the woods back, pushing 543 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,280 the woods back away from your road. 544 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:03,560 Yeah. 545 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:09,400 And, you know, when I'm talking to landowners, there's several 546 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,040 things that come to mind for them. 547 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:17,120 A lot of people were thinking about, oh, if we need a 30 foot buffer, we'll 548 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,000 just split it and have 15 on each side. 549 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:25,440 Well, I tend to try to concentrate it on one side of the road so that it's wider. 550 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:26,360 Mm-hmm. 551 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:32,400 And also you, you kind of move your, your road traffic to one side of it. 552 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,560 And it's just easier from my point of view to, to manage it and have 553 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:37,760 it accomplish what you're trying. 554 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:38,480 Yeah. 555 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:43,680 If you couple that with some other practices like edge feathering, for 556 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:50,600 example, you can really create a nice layout where you could have brooding 557 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:55,040 and nesting cover together throughout the property where a hen, if she 558 00:37:55,040 --> 00:38:00,320 chose, you know, you've got 300 acres and she's nested and hatched a brood 559 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:05,000 in one corner, she could get across to the other corner without ever leaving 560 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,160 a place that's safe to brood in. 561 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:08,120 Mm-hmm. 562 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:16,400 And I feel like that strategy, it is a really effective way for you to ensure 563 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:22,120 that you're providing adequate nesting and brooding cover throughout the property. 564 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:27,400 It's already, in most cases, the road system is designed for, well, in all 565 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,520 cases, I guess, designed for connectivity for you so that you can get around in 566 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:36,200 the property, but it's also often associated with the high ground. 567 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:44,040 So you kind of end up in this really nice situation where it's 568 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:45,400 distributed through the property. 569 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,200 It's often associated with high ground that you're going to be disturbing 570 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:53,880 frequently and it also, by design, gives you access to it where you're going 571 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:59,040 to be implementing disking or burning or herbicide applications or whatever 572 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:00,440 is associated with your road system. 573 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,880 And that, you know, those kinds of things are making your management 574 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:09,880 more efficient and, you know, distributing it throughout your 575 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:15,800 property, which I think are, you know, valuable traits of that management 576 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,800 approach, so I think that, you know, just kind of going through that 577 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:24,080 thought process is often really helpful for people to think through where 578 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,280 they should target and how should they should try to distribute 579 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:28,560 those things throughout the property. 580 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:29,360 Yeah. 581 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:35,200 And to your, you know, to your point, so not only if you do that, let's 582 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,960 just say, you know, you take your property and you go ahead and you put 583 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:45,520 a 30 foot, you know, opening along all of your roads, so you're accomplishing 584 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,000 that objective that you just talked about of improving connectivity, but 585 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,920 you're also accomplishing the objective that I talked about just a minute ago, 586 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,120 which is increasing early successional cover. 587 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:55,400 Yes. 588 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:55,640 Right. 589 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,360 So you're, you're doing both of those things at the same time. 590 00:39:58,360 --> 00:39:59,240 Yeah. 591 00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:02,360 You're hitting on many points, right. 592 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,800 That, that are necessary to be an effective manager. 593 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:06,600 Yeah. 594 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:12,720 You're, you're, you know, the connectivity, the amount available, uh, it being 595 00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:17,480 distributed so that many hands that might be defending good patches from 596 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,960 each other or whatever's going on socially, you know, uh, they, they have 597 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:26,640 access to it, maybe they, for some reason want to travel, they can do that, but 598 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:31,600 it's also making it more efficient for you to implement the things you need to, 599 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:32,200 to manage it. 600 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:36,160 And it's a lot of ground to play with too, you know, like as soon as you open 601 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:40,880 that up, especially if you have a, like, I understand where you were coming from 602 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,560 talking about doing the one roadside, but then, you know, if there's, I've 603 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,760 been on some properties where landowners do 30 feet on both sides of the road. 604 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:48,400 You know? 605 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:48,880 Yeah. 606 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,200 And then there's nothing wrong with that. 607 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:52,280 Oh, absolutely. 608 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:53,000 Absolutely. 609 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:57,680 And so in that scenario, it's like, oh, well, I'll disc one half of one side of 610 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:01,480 the road this year and one half the next year, or, you know, you can start patch 611 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,440 working down your road system and, and you can, you know, burn it and you can 612 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,600 do all, you can plant some, it's just, it's fun. 613 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:10,080 You can get really creative with it. 614 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:15,040 There, and, uh, another thing that I think comes with it is it improves 615 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,960 the unability of the property at the same time. 616 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:22,760 And I have seen landowners, like you said, they'll take patches and plant it. 617 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,600 You know, it's an awesome place to sit in the house during the rut. 618 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:27,160 Yeah. 619 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,240 Uh, you know, you can kind of sneak around the roads. 620 00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:33,880 Often that the cover associated with them is helping you do that. 621 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:38,360 And, uh, in many cases, it's a good place for gobbler to strut. 622 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:40,880 And that's what I tell landowners all the time. 623 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:45,040 It's like, if you've got enough good nesting and brooding cover, it's like, 624 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,680 there's nothing wrong with throwing in some clover food plots here and 625 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:49,680 there is like strut plots, you know? 626 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:50,000 Yeah. 627 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:54,160 You don't need, you don't have to do and don't need to do the same thing everywhere. 628 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:54,720 No. 629 00:41:54,720 --> 00:41:58,560 You're trying to address what is limiting. 630 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,240 And if you don't have adequate nesting or brooding cover, 631 00:42:02,240 --> 00:42:03,680 then you need to address that. 632 00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:04,480 That's right. 633 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:09,360 But, uh, you know, let's keep in mind while we're all in this. 634 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,840 And yeah, why, why we want to make more turkeys in the, in the first places. 635 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:13,960 So we can hunt more turkeys. 636 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,480 So there's nothing wrong with that being part of your strategy is trying to 637 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,520 maximize the huntability of the, all the birds you're making. 638 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:21,200 Yeah. 639 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:22,800 Yeah. 640 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:23,600 I don't feel bad about it. 641 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:24,120 It's good stuff. 642 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,000 I don't feel bad about it. 643 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:33,960 I mean, I see people go through an, an incredible amount of effort and 644 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,560 spend an incredible amount of money because of that passion. 645 00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,400 And that, uh, that I appreciate a lot. 646 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:41,520 I do too. 647 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:48,840 And, and that's the thing, man, is like people can and do make this much more 648 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,160 complicated than what we just laid out. 649 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:56,920 And it gets complicated, especially like his property size and complexity 650 00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:01,480 increase, and then you've got these specific situations and then, um, you 651 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:06,240 start layering on constraints, like, you know, this person also grows some 652 00:43:06,240 --> 00:43:09,640 crop over here and they've got some cows over in like, once you start doing all 653 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,240 that, that's when it gets complicated. 654 00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:15,160 But kind of what we laid out is really the nuts and bolts of what I pay 655 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,320 attention to when I first start going on a property managed for turkeys. 656 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:19,240 Yeah. 657 00:43:19,240 --> 00:43:24,400 What is, what is the current status and species composition of my openings? 658 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:28,040 How many openings do I have and do I need to create more of that? 659 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,480 And then once I have it, what is my disturbance regime look like and 660 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:34,200 what tools do I use to implement it? 661 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:35,440 Right. 662 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,280 And I think where it gets really tricky is when you have several 663 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:44,240 competing objectives and that might be because you have, you know, a family 664 00:43:44,240 --> 00:43:50,800 of landowners or a bunch of friends together, or, you know, uh, someone 665 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,400 else owns the land or you need to generate revenue from it, you know, 666 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:55,640 there's all kinds of reasons. 667 00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:56,880 There's competing objectives. 668 00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,760 Yeah, it's like, my uncle won't let me manage that food plot for brooding. 669 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:02,560 Cause he likes to hunt armadillos out there. 670 00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:07,640 I don't know how I haven't gotten that one, but yeah. 671 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,960 So, I mean, you, you never know what, like, that's one of the fun things 672 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,960 about going and meeting with people is you get into all kinds of situations. 673 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:18,880 Like, wow, I just had no idea that people, like that there was 674 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,440 anybody that cared about that, you know? 675 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:22,880 So that's fun. 676 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:27,520 But, uh, you know, I think that's the, the, the art of it. 677 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:27,840 Right. 678 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:33,840 You're trying to take a strategy and lay that over competing 679 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:38,560 objectives and try to do that in a way that still, you know, is beneficial 680 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,760 producing more of the bird and, and hunting it. 681 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:43,840 That's it. 682 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:48,360 So, well, they got your, they got your burger ready yet. 683 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:49,800 Yeah, man. 684 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:51,200 I got a big old cheeseburger. 685 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:55,400 So for those out there wondering why he's picking on me, I'm sitting 686 00:44:55,400 --> 00:45:00,440 at a, like a chain restaurant because it was the only place I could find 687 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:04,160 wifi because apparently up here, when it rains, everybody's wifi wires 688 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,640 get wet and the wifi doesn't work anywhere. 689 00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,840 I just think this is all an elaborate ruse. 690 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,640 You know, you're talking about your fly fishing for trout in Northern 691 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,800 Michigan, and I think reality is you've just gone on a road trip to sample 692 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:17,520 fast food burgers across the country. 693 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:18,400 Oh yeah. 694 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:18,880 Yeah. 695 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:23,640 It's hard to, it's hard to detangle the two, to be honest with you. 696 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,760 All right. 697 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:28,480 Well, yeah, that was good stuff. 698 00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:32,840 Hopefully, uh, that addressed some of the questions we've been getting. 699 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,120 It certainly, I feel like it gave us a chance to tie up some loose ends 700 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,640 related to, you know, some recent topics and stuff like that. 701 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:40,920 Yeah, yeah, for sure. 702 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,720 So appreciate everybody, all the support. 703 00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:46,760 So it's been great. 704 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,920 And that, you know, we're trying to do what you're saying, you know, with the 705 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,560 questions and comments and everything people want to hear about habitat. 706 00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:55,480 So we're trying to stay there. 707 00:45:55,480 --> 00:46:02,120 Wild Turkey Science is part of the Natural Resources University 708 00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:06,400 Podcast Network and is made possible by Turkeys for Tomorrow, a grassroots 709 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:08,440 organization dedicated to the wild turkey. 710 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,480 To learn more about TFT, check out turkeysfortomorrow.org. 711 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:20,120 Thanks for watching.