WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:04.760 Hello and welcome to The Unique CPA with your host, Randy Crabtree. 00:04.760 --> 00:08.720 We're committed to creating a thriving community of accounting professionals who are physically 00:08.720 --> 00:13.120 and mentally healthy, fulfilled, and energized by their work. 00:13.120 --> 00:17.360 Our ultimate goal is to elevate the reputation of the accounting profession and vastly improve 00:17.360 --> 00:19.480 the lives of those in it. 00:19.480 --> 00:24.640 The Unique CPA is brought to you by TriMerit, the specialty tax professionals. 00:24.640 --> 00:26.720 Today our guest is Jordan Goodman. 00:26.720 --> 00:32.800 Jordan is a partner at HBM Group, a law firm in, well, I know he's in Chicago, it may 00:32.800 --> 00:33.800 be nationwide. 00:33.800 --> 00:37.520 I'll ask him that when we let him speak. 00:37.520 --> 00:44.240 He's a very sought after lecturer on multi-state tax issues, controversies, planning, anything 00:44.240 --> 00:45.880 related to SALT. 00:45.880 --> 00:47.520 He is out there, very entertaining. 00:47.520 --> 00:53.200 I've got a chance to see him speak a few times and he makes it exciting, which is, I think, 00:53.200 --> 00:57.640 one of the most important things when you're out educating because if it's not exciting, 00:57.640 --> 00:58.640 people aren't listening. 00:58.640 --> 01:01.920 So Jordan, welcome back to The Unique CPA. 01:01.920 --> 01:02.920 Appreciate it. 01:02.920 --> 01:03.920 No, Randy, always great. 01:03.920 --> 01:05.920 And the compliment is mutual. 01:05.920 --> 01:07.960 I love watching you present. 01:07.960 --> 01:08.960 You're inspirational. 01:08.960 --> 01:10.280 You get the crowd involved. 01:10.280 --> 01:15.800 And we're the two of the people around the country that they put after lunch with a purpose. 01:15.800 --> 01:16.800 We're going to keep them awake. 01:16.800 --> 01:19.040 We're going to keep them alive. 01:19.040 --> 01:20.600 People are going to tune back in. 01:20.600 --> 01:22.520 It's great that we can do that. 01:22.560 --> 01:25.440 It's kind of difficult because we get that slot all the time. 01:25.440 --> 01:26.440 Right. 01:26.440 --> 01:27.440 We get that. 01:27.440 --> 01:29.120 I get that slot a lot or I get the breakfast slot. 01:29.120 --> 01:33.160 So I guess they got a little more energy, but they're also just eight as well. 01:33.160 --> 01:38.640 So yeah, no, it's I think the last time I saw you, boy, were we in Dallas or something? 01:38.640 --> 01:39.640 I saw you speak. 01:39.640 --> 01:40.640 Denver? 01:40.640 --> 01:41.640 Denver? 01:41.640 --> 01:42.640 Maybe that's what it was. 01:42.640 --> 01:43.640 And I think you were right after lunch. 01:43.640 --> 01:44.640 Yeah. 01:44.640 --> 01:45.640 Yeah. 01:45.640 --> 01:47.920 In fact, I think we were eating lunch together on that one. 01:47.920 --> 01:49.680 I think we take that as a compliment. 01:49.680 --> 01:50.680 So it's exactly. 01:50.680 --> 01:51.680 I agree. 01:51.840 --> 01:57.480 I ran into you just randomly in an airport last Orlando United Club. 01:57.480 --> 01:58.480 Look at you. 01:58.480 --> 02:01.000 I can't remember where I was. 02:01.000 --> 02:02.000 That's right. 02:02.000 --> 02:03.000 You were speaking at an event there. 02:03.000 --> 02:06.960 I was speaking at an event there and and it was cool to run into you there. 02:06.960 --> 02:10.760 So as I said when I welcomed you, I said, welcome back. 02:10.760 --> 02:12.040 You were on. 02:12.040 --> 02:17.240 You were actually my memory was at first 10 episodes guest, but you were episode number 02:17.240 --> 02:18.240 12. 02:18.240 --> 02:19.920 So that was a while ago. 02:19.960 --> 02:23.720 I'm guessing today we're recording about episode 140. 02:23.720 --> 02:24.720 So wow. 02:24.720 --> 02:25.720 Congratulations. 02:25.720 --> 02:26.720 That's fantastic. 02:26.720 --> 02:27.720 Yeah. 02:27.720 --> 02:28.720 It was. 02:28.720 --> 02:33.600 It was a while ago, but I had a great time when we talked last time and you and I always 02:33.600 --> 02:37.680 have a great time together and I think we'll get a few laughs in today. 02:37.680 --> 02:43.040 But the topic, not everybody's going to think is an exciting topic probably all the time. 02:43.040 --> 02:44.040 And it is. 02:44.040 --> 02:49.880 And believe me, when we talk about so it is all the state and local tax, you are a world 02:50.200 --> 02:54.680 or at least nationwide recognized expert in this from everybody I've talked to. 02:54.680 --> 02:56.000 They all know Jordan Goodman. 02:57.000 --> 03:02.760 Last time we were talking about, if I recall, the wayfarer rules and the things that were 03:02.760 --> 03:05.600 coming out with that, we talked pre pandemic. 03:05.880 --> 03:07.720 Now, obviously, things have changed. 03:07.720 --> 03:11.240 Pandemics probably made some changes to salt, which we can get into. 03:11.240 --> 03:15.880 But just in general, you want to jump into some of the issues that you're seeing out 03:15.880 --> 03:18.840 there these days or things you're dealing with or positives or negatives? 03:19.480 --> 03:25.400 Yeah, no, and I'm going to lead off with a non-tax case, OK, that can have tremendous 03:25.400 --> 03:28.200 ramifications on my world, state and local tax. 03:28.600 --> 03:31.960 This is the national pork producers case versus California. 03:32.840 --> 03:33.720 This is an obscure thing. 03:33.720 --> 03:35.560 U.S. Supreme Court came down with a decision. 03:35.560 --> 03:40.120 I believe there were seven different decisions issued by the nine justices. 03:40.120 --> 03:42.440 So, you know, it was controversial, all different parts. 03:43.080 --> 03:44.280 And I'll get into it. 03:44.280 --> 03:45.560 California passed. 03:45.560 --> 03:46.840 I think it was Prop 12. 03:46.840 --> 03:48.200 They got all kinds of props out there. 03:48.200 --> 03:55.560 Prop 12 that said for pork, you cannot sell pork into California unless the pig was raised 03:55.560 --> 04:00.520 in what they defined as humane conditions and they define humane conditions as enough 04:00.520 --> 04:04.280 space to stand up, turn around, treated in a certain particular way. 04:04.920 --> 04:08.360 And the question was, is that a constitutional law? 04:08.360 --> 04:09.800 So what does it have to do with tax? 04:09.800 --> 04:10.120 Right. 04:10.120 --> 04:10.600 Yeah. 04:10.600 --> 04:15.800 So you have California's where pigs raised, not in California. 04:15.800 --> 04:16.200 No. 04:16.200 --> 04:16.520 Right. 04:16.520 --> 04:20.440 Iowa, Illinois, Wisconsin, the Midwest, generally in the Midwest. 04:20.440 --> 04:25.160 And the question was, was this law discriminatory against interstate commerce? 04:25.160 --> 04:28.520 That starts getting into our hook about taxes. 04:28.520 --> 04:29.080 Right. 04:29.080 --> 04:34.920 Can a state pass a law that makes other businesses have to expend money to make sure that they 04:34.920 --> 04:37.320 raise hogs in a particular way? 04:37.320 --> 04:42.280 Because it impacts interstate commerce and the Supreme Court in what's called a plurality 04:42.280 --> 04:45.560 decision, not a majority decision, because there are so many different parts. 04:45.560 --> 04:51.640 They ruled that California's law was okay under something that came out on a case that 04:51.640 --> 04:55.800 was obscure, never cited until the Wayfair decision. 04:55.800 --> 04:56.280 Oh, wow. 04:57.000 --> 04:58.040 So here's our tie in. 04:58.920 --> 05:04.840 In Wayfair, what they ultimately held in Justice Kennedy's decision was that under 05:04.840 --> 05:10.600 the Pike balancing test, you have to measure the impact on interstate commerce versus the 05:10.600 --> 05:12.040 goal that is trying to achieve. 05:12.680 --> 05:18.680 And they ruled that having out-of-state retailers, remote sellers, collect tax under South 05:18.680 --> 05:25.480 Dakota's $100,000 of sales, no retroactivity, streamlined member was not a big enough burden 05:25.480 --> 05:28.200 to offset the obligation to do that. 05:28.200 --> 05:29.320 Pike's balancing test. 05:30.120 --> 05:34.760 So Pike also has become the test before the US Supreme Court when measuring interstate 05:34.760 --> 05:37.160 commerce or when can you pass a law. 05:37.160 --> 05:38.280 So what does this mean? 05:38.360 --> 05:43.640 It means that states now can pass laws that seem to discriminate against interstate commerce, 05:43.640 --> 05:49.960 out-of-state sellers, as long as the benefit to the state is greater than the burden put 05:49.960 --> 05:51.080 on the interstate things. 05:51.080 --> 05:55.480 That will have a tremendous impact, I predict, will have a tremendous impact on the ability 05:55.480 --> 05:58.040 of states to tax out-of-staters. 05:58.040 --> 06:00.600 So is this, this is a future thing. 06:00.600 --> 06:03.480 This is not like, I mean, it's not, we have to comply with it. 06:03.480 --> 06:03.880 Correct. 06:03.880 --> 06:08.200 But we haven't seen anybody argue with it or have any issues or audits come out of it. 06:08.680 --> 06:13.000 Again, this is in the context of a non-tax case, but I think it's going to happen. 06:13.000 --> 06:17.400 But we see even that decision, that wayfarer decision, being contested. 06:18.040 --> 06:24.120 There was just an article in Law 360 by a friend of mine, Maria Coca-Lenares, talking about 06:24.120 --> 06:27.080 the lasting impact of wayfarer and is it decided. 06:27.080 --> 06:27.400 Right. 06:27.400 --> 06:31.400 And one of the questions, there's a couple cases before the US Supreme Court right now 06:31.400 --> 06:34.840 talking about ramifications from wayfarer, subject to tax. 06:35.320 --> 06:39.720 You know, one is whether a case of 1944 called Dilworth is still good law. 06:40.280 --> 06:42.760 And Dilworth was a kind of a goofy case. 06:42.760 --> 06:46.520 You can't assess a sales tax on an out-of-stater. 06:46.520 --> 06:48.200 You can assess a use tax. 06:48.200 --> 06:48.520 Okay. 06:48.520 --> 06:50.840 And they didn't have a use tax, so they couldn't assess it. 06:51.400 --> 06:54.200 Same thing happened in North Carolina on Quad Graphics. 06:54.200 --> 06:55.080 It's the name of the case. 06:55.720 --> 06:59.640 Quad Graphics sells goods out of Wisconsin primarily. 06:59.640 --> 07:01.000 It's freight on board. 07:01.000 --> 07:06.520 So title transfers in Wisconsin gets shipped to parts of North Carolina. 07:06.520 --> 07:10.680 And the question is, can they assess them a sales tax on that? 07:10.680 --> 07:13.960 And they said, well, if you assess the use tax, absolutely you can. 07:13.960 --> 07:20.600 A sales tax, maybe not because the sale actually occurs outside of North Carolina. 07:20.600 --> 07:24.520 Because the question is, is this Dilworth case dead after wayfarer? 07:24.520 --> 07:27.720 Because wayfarer dealt with a South Dakota sales tax law. 07:27.720 --> 07:30.520 I mean, so it's never going to die, which is good because you and I have some 07:30.520 --> 07:32.200 years left before we're done doing this. 07:32.200 --> 07:35.240 And I want to be busy and having fun during that period of time. 07:35.240 --> 07:36.440 And that's amazing. 07:36.440 --> 07:38.680 You do have fun, which is always exciting. 07:38.680 --> 07:41.560 Why don't we, you know, since we just talked about wayfarer, 07:41.560 --> 07:43.960 do you want to give a quick summation of that? 07:43.960 --> 07:48.280 And then what has happened in the last three years since we originally talked about it? 07:48.280 --> 07:49.400 Yeah, absolutely. 07:49.400 --> 07:53.160 So wayfarer, going back to, and I'm not going to go deep down, 07:53.160 --> 07:56.520 but there was a case called National Bellis Assassin back in the 1960s 07:56.520 --> 07:59.720 that said you have to have physical presence constitutionally 07:59.960 --> 08:02.920 for a state to impose their taxing obligations on you. 08:03.560 --> 08:07.960 That was limited in a case called Quill, which came out in 1992 that said, 08:08.520 --> 08:10.920 due process, all you have to do is know or should have known 08:10.920 --> 08:12.600 that your goods would end up in the state. 08:13.160 --> 08:16.520 But for Commerce Plus purposes, you still required physical presence. 08:17.160 --> 08:20.680 Wayfarer came along, South Dakota law that says you don't need physical presence. 08:20.680 --> 08:26.040 You need $100,000 of sales or 200 transactions in the state for remote sellers. 08:26.280 --> 08:30.600 Think about what happened in the internet between 1992 and 2018 08:30.600 --> 08:32.280 when wayfarer was decided. 08:32.280 --> 08:33.320 Internet went crazy. 08:33.320 --> 08:36.600 It used to be catalog companies, but the internet went crazy. 08:37.800 --> 08:41.160 SIM card said, you know, as long as you have that level of economic nexus, 08:41.160 --> 08:43.720 that's also a sufficient reason and got rid of it. 08:43.720 --> 08:46.040 You purposely availed yourself of the marketplace. 08:46.040 --> 08:50.360 You have significant non-tangible contacts with the state, 08:50.920 --> 08:52.040 and therefore that's enough. 08:52.680 --> 08:56.760 And what was crazy about this is really, you know, is limited to a number of states. 08:57.320 --> 09:01.000 Every state that imposes a sales tax now has a wayfarer law. 09:01.880 --> 09:03.720 The minimum is 100,000. 09:03.720 --> 09:07.560 It goes up to 500,000 in a state like California or Massachusetts. 09:08.200 --> 09:13.000 And the other part of it, you see even South Dakota getting rid of the 200 transactions 09:13.000 --> 09:15.320 because that threshold is really low. 09:15.320 --> 09:18.840 If you think about it, you know, so explain that when you're saying 100,000, 09:18.840 --> 09:22.120 you have to have $100,000 of revenue in the state to create nexus. 09:22.680 --> 09:25.400 Sales and the definition changes. 09:25.400 --> 09:27.240 Is it taxable sales? 09:27.240 --> 09:29.000 Is it any sales? 09:29.000 --> 09:31.000 Is it less sales, returns and allowances? 09:31.560 --> 09:34.440 For the most part, think about it, just gross sales into the state. 09:34.440 --> 09:35.160 Into the state. 09:35.160 --> 09:35.960 Most common. 09:35.960 --> 09:36.600 Into the state. 09:37.160 --> 09:40.840 What's the 200 transaction then, what they had that they want to repeal? 09:41.480 --> 09:46.040 So 200 transactions means, well, even if you only had $50,000 of sales in the state, 09:46.040 --> 09:49.960 if you had 200 sales into the state, that was also enough. 09:49.960 --> 09:51.800 Now you created this nexus. 09:51.800 --> 09:52.040 Right. 09:52.040 --> 09:58.760 But that threshold is so low that the states are realizing it's probably ineffective on its own. 09:58.760 --> 10:02.280 And they put the numerical amount of sales, not the number of sales. 10:02.280 --> 10:02.520 Okay. 10:02.520 --> 10:06.760 So the number of sales may be going away across the board or most states, 10:06.760 --> 10:09.800 but the dollar value is what they're going to concentrate on. 10:09.800 --> 10:10.040 Okay. 10:10.040 --> 10:11.000 So that's a change then. 10:11.000 --> 10:11.240 All right. 10:11.240 --> 10:11.560 Sorry. 10:11.560 --> 10:12.280 Go ahead. 10:12.280 --> 10:12.760 No, no. 10:12.760 --> 10:17.000 And you think about it too, in South Dakota is a relatively small populous state. 10:17.000 --> 10:20.440 $100,000 of sales might be relatively good. 10:20.440 --> 10:24.520 But then you look at my home state of Illinois, we've got 10 times the population 10:25.080 --> 10:27.720 just in Chicago of what they have in South Dakota. 10:27.720 --> 10:29.560 And our standard is $100,000 also. 10:30.280 --> 10:31.640 Is that legitimate or not? 10:31.640 --> 10:31.880 Right? 10:31.880 --> 10:32.600 Is that fair? 10:33.240 --> 10:36.840 Larger states, California, New York, Massachusetts, have higher thresholds. 10:36.840 --> 10:40.680 But again, $500,000, $100,000, not that big a deal. 10:40.680 --> 10:41.240 Right. 10:41.240 --> 10:41.640 Right. 10:41.640 --> 10:42.760 Every state has passed one. 10:43.400 --> 10:48.280 And then they ratcheted it up because of the burden on the small sellers. 10:48.280 --> 10:50.520 It's easy to go after a marketplace. 10:51.240 --> 10:51.480 Okay. 10:51.480 --> 10:55.320 A marketplace to use a name brand is Amazon. 10:55.320 --> 10:56.840 They sell their own stuff. 10:56.840 --> 10:58.280 They sell everybody's stuff. 10:58.280 --> 11:03.880 If they have $100,000 of sales into a state, they have an obligation 11:03.880 --> 11:07.480 to collect their remit tax even for sales that aren't theirs. 11:07.480 --> 11:08.200 Oh, wow. 11:08.760 --> 11:13.480 So here, if you buy it online, most likely you're going to get hit with tax. 11:13.480 --> 11:14.920 That's the bottom line for everybody. 11:14.920 --> 11:15.320 Right. 11:15.320 --> 11:16.360 That makes sense. 11:16.360 --> 11:21.320 Unless you're a really small retailer that's independent, not selling through Amazon 11:21.320 --> 11:26.040 or I think even Walmart sells stuff for other people as well, too. 11:26.040 --> 11:26.760 Yes. 11:26.760 --> 11:31.560 Sears, Walmart, all the big retailers have sites now that you can buy many things in. 11:31.560 --> 11:35.240 And I've dealt with a number of clients that have a particular product 11:35.240 --> 11:37.400 that aren't billions of dollars. 11:37.400 --> 11:40.680 There are hundreds of millions of dollars that want to become marketplaces 11:40.680 --> 11:41.960 for ancillary products. 11:41.960 --> 11:45.080 And here's some of the risks that we put out there for them. 11:45.080 --> 11:46.120 How about like an Etsy? 11:46.120 --> 11:51.080 That's a lot of really small sellers, but a big organization overall, I assume. 11:51.080 --> 11:51.480 Exactly. 11:51.480 --> 11:54.680 And your memory is probably tricking you a little bit because Etsy was brought up 11:54.680 --> 11:57.080 in oral argument at the Wayfair argument. 11:57.080 --> 11:57.880 Really? 11:57.880 --> 12:02.840 As an example, that 200 transactions, their average transaction was I think $11. 12:03.640 --> 12:08.680 So for $2,200 worth of sales into a state on the transactional side, 12:08.680 --> 12:12.360 they would be subject to collect tax, which would probably cost them more 12:12.360 --> 12:16.920 from an administrative perspective than the tax dollars themselves. 12:16.920 --> 12:21.240 Well, look at me, 61 years old, and I can remember something that just came into my 12:21.240 --> 12:24.200 mind that we talked about three plus years ago. 12:24.200 --> 12:24.680 All right. 12:24.680 --> 12:25.080 Exactly. 12:25.080 --> 12:26.200 I'm feeling younger now. 12:26.200 --> 12:27.000 This is nice. 12:27.000 --> 12:27.720 That's my job. 12:28.360 --> 12:28.840 Thank you. 12:29.480 --> 12:30.360 I appreciate it. 12:31.080 --> 12:34.040 So I got us down that Wayfair path. 12:34.040 --> 12:36.280 Anything else there or what else should we be talking about? 12:36.920 --> 12:40.040 The other issue that we're going to see that is happening right now, 12:40.040 --> 12:41.960 and there's a couple of cases out there dealing with it, 12:41.960 --> 12:45.960 is not just state level nexus, but local taxes. 12:47.640 --> 12:51.960 City of Chicago, Louisiana, 1,500 taxing jurisdictions. 12:52.760 --> 12:54.040 What's the standard? 12:54.040 --> 12:55.880 If you have nexus with the state on the Wayfair, 12:55.880 --> 12:58.600 do you have nexus with each individual parish? 12:59.240 --> 12:59.960 Right. 12:59.960 --> 13:03.080 And so there's a case called Halstead Beads, which is going at it 13:03.080 --> 13:06.920 kind of an awkward way through the federal courts, trying to say that that's not fair. 13:06.920 --> 13:10.680 Just having $100,000 into Louisiana doesn't mean that I have to comply with 13:10.680 --> 13:13.400 1,500 different jurisdictions in Louisiana. 13:13.400 --> 13:14.360 Is that fair? 13:14.360 --> 13:14.600 Right. 13:15.160 --> 13:18.600 So basically we're dissuading people from starting small businesses 13:18.600 --> 13:21.880 that operate online and send product around the country. 13:22.520 --> 13:24.360 It is truly a cost of doing business. 13:24.360 --> 13:27.080 And that's, you know, the goal is to get large. 13:27.160 --> 13:31.320 As you get large, you incur obligations from a number of areas. 13:31.320 --> 13:34.440 And sales tax is certainly one of them that you have to be 13:34.440 --> 13:36.440 cognizant of when getting into business. 13:36.440 --> 13:37.080 All right. 13:37.080 --> 13:40.280 Well, one thing, and so this just is a question that came into my mind, 13:40.280 --> 13:43.080 but you could tell me if this makes sense to discuss or not. 13:43.080 --> 13:48.440 But just the pandemic obviously created this whole remote workforce. 13:48.440 --> 13:50.600 We're hiring people all over the country now. 13:51.560 --> 13:54.040 How is that affecting state and local taxes? 13:54.040 --> 13:55.720 You know, from a payroll tax standpoint, 13:55.720 --> 13:57.640 I think that's probably pretty straightforward. 13:57.640 --> 14:01.880 But then from, you know, sales or income tax, you know, 14:01.880 --> 14:05.240 if I hire one person in Montana or wherever, you know, 14:05.240 --> 14:07.160 now what does that do to my business? 14:07.160 --> 14:08.680 Well, there's two aspects of that. 14:08.680 --> 14:12.200 And you kind of nailed the first part of it is having an employee 14:12.760 --> 14:14.440 in a state performing services. 14:14.440 --> 14:18.680 If you're not protected by the law, we've talked about public law 86272, 14:18.680 --> 14:22.040 which is a different topic for sellers of tangible personal property. 14:22.600 --> 14:25.080 There's no reason that you're not subject to tax in the state. 14:26.520 --> 14:30.680 For transient workers, there are states like my home state, Illinois, 14:30.680 --> 14:33.240 that passed a 30 day rule. 14:33.240 --> 14:36.200 So if you're not in the state, if you're going to stay less than 30 days, 14:36.200 --> 14:38.360 it doesn't create nexus for out of state companies. 14:38.360 --> 14:40.440 OK, that's fair. 14:40.440 --> 14:43.480 If you have a remote employee where they've actually picked up and moved, 14:43.480 --> 14:45.720 they're going to be there for more than 30 days. 14:45.720 --> 14:48.920 And you're going to be subject to tax wherever they are. 14:48.920 --> 14:52.280 And that's a question I get probably weekly, you know, 14:52.520 --> 14:55.640 think about hiring Joe or Jane in North Carolina. 14:55.640 --> 14:57.000 What are the tax ramifications? 14:57.640 --> 15:01.720 Not only payroll tax, sales tax, income tax, franchise tax, 15:01.720 --> 15:03.640 personal property tax, what do they have there? 15:03.640 --> 15:06.920 Just all jumps on board as soon as you have a permanent employee there. 15:07.560 --> 15:10.040 All right, so let me dig into that for a second. 15:10.040 --> 15:12.520 So I hire whatever state. 15:13.160 --> 15:16.280 What state would have the most restrictive, I guess, 15:17.320 --> 15:18.920 rules, California or something? 15:18.920 --> 15:19.240 I don't know. 15:19.320 --> 15:24.920 California, New York, Alabama right now is really a couple of cases in Alabama 15:24.920 --> 15:25.640 that I'll tell you about. 15:25.640 --> 15:28.280 But they say if you're in the state for a day, 15:28.920 --> 15:32.360 the out of state company has nexus regardless of what you're doing. 15:33.240 --> 15:36.600 And that's, you know, think about that from people in our profession. 15:36.600 --> 15:37.800 We go out to see clients. 15:37.800 --> 15:38.680 We do all that kind of stuff. 15:39.320 --> 15:41.640 Now, there's a, you know, de minimis amount. 15:41.640 --> 15:44.760 You could always argue it's de minimis, but certainly we are all at risk 15:44.760 --> 15:49.080 when we do work for our clients or meet with our clients or perform services. 15:49.080 --> 15:50.920 Not in our home state. 15:50.920 --> 15:51.160 Right. 15:51.160 --> 15:53.560 It's a possibility, but that's hard to trace. 15:53.560 --> 15:54.200 I would assume. 15:54.200 --> 15:59.880 But let's say I hire a person in Alabama and they're doing, you know, whatever, 15:59.880 --> 16:03.640 project management work, but none of it is for clients in Alabama. 16:03.640 --> 16:06.840 We're not generating any revenue in the state of Alabama. 16:06.840 --> 16:08.760 We just have an employee that works there. 16:08.760 --> 16:11.800 Am I still have an income tax issue to deal with? 16:11.800 --> 16:13.400 Well, potentially, potentially not. 16:13.400 --> 16:17.960 The good news is the majority of states have gotten away from the property 16:17.960 --> 16:19.400 and payroll factors. 16:19.400 --> 16:23.960 So even if you have nexus in a state, an obligation to file a return, 16:23.960 --> 16:28.280 if you don't have sales into the state, then your numerator zero and you have no 16:28.280 --> 16:33.880 liability under than a minimum tax or a filing obligation, that would be it. 16:33.880 --> 16:36.520 But the other part of this, I think is really important. 16:36.520 --> 16:42.520 And we're dealing with a number of cases dealing with this is where does the remote 16:42.520 --> 16:47.960 worker actually owe tax this convenience of the employer test that you see out of 16:47.960 --> 16:50.600 New York, a couple of cases out of Alabama. 16:50.600 --> 16:55.240 Just recently we had a just just by way of example, Alabama business, 16:55.240 --> 16:58.200 Alabama employee during the pandemic moved to Idaho. 16:58.200 --> 17:01.960 And I know a bunch of people who moved to Idaho working full time in Idaho. 17:02.600 --> 17:09.640 Alabama argued so far and successfully so far that Idaho resident owes 17:09.640 --> 17:12.520 Alabama taxes on their wages. 17:12.520 --> 17:13.240 Really? 17:13.240 --> 17:15.160 And they never go back to Alabama. 17:15.160 --> 17:17.000 They live in Idaho full time. 17:17.640 --> 17:22.760 Direction and control out of Alabama and the convenience of the employer test. 17:22.760 --> 17:26.280 So I'm allowing you to go wherever you want, but you're still reporting to us in Alabama. 17:26.840 --> 17:27.240 All right. 17:27.240 --> 17:29.240 So but I don't even know. 17:29.240 --> 17:30.840 I assume Idaho has an income tax. 17:30.840 --> 17:34.840 If I'm paying income tax in Idaho, I'm going to get a credit in Alabama or vice versa for 17:34.840 --> 17:36.200 what I'm paying to the other states. 17:36.200 --> 17:37.960 So hopefully it's not a huge effect. 17:38.760 --> 17:40.680 But that's the rub. 17:40.680 --> 17:41.080 Yeah. 17:41.080 --> 17:44.520 But now what states are doing in California just had a case like this 17:44.520 --> 17:46.040 and Illinois has had a case like this. 17:46.760 --> 17:52.440 They will only give you a credit if the rules from the taxing state 17:52.440 --> 17:55.160 were enforced and you would owe a tax in your state. 17:55.880 --> 17:56.600 Okay. 17:56.600 --> 17:59.320 So let me explain that in the context of our Idaho question. 18:00.120 --> 18:03.320 Alabama says it's where your direction and control is from. 18:04.040 --> 18:05.720 All of your bosses are in Alabama. 18:05.720 --> 18:07.000 You used to work in Alabama. 18:07.000 --> 18:07.960 Now you work in Idaho. 18:08.920 --> 18:10.040 What's Idaho? 18:10.040 --> 18:14.760 If I have forced my Alabama rule in Idaho, where's your direction and control? 18:14.760 --> 18:16.280 Where are your bosses located? 18:16.280 --> 18:17.800 They're not in Idaho. 18:17.800 --> 18:18.440 Okay. 18:18.440 --> 18:23.480 Therefore you would owe no Idaho tax based upon Alabama's rules. 18:23.480 --> 18:27.560 And therefore there is no credit given for the taxes you pay in Idaho. 18:27.560 --> 18:29.240 How about that for a double whammy? 18:29.880 --> 18:30.280 All right. 18:30.280 --> 18:31.320 This is crazy. 18:31.320 --> 18:32.360 I'm going to retire. 18:34.280 --> 18:34.840 Okay. 18:34.840 --> 18:39.000 But this is going on now in New York and New Jersey are fighting right now. 18:39.000 --> 18:43.000 There's a lot of people that live in New Jersey that don't go into the city anymore. 18:43.000 --> 18:45.560 And New York is saying convenience of the employer rule. 18:46.200 --> 18:50.440 You still have an obligation to pay New York taxes and New Jersey is saying 18:50.440 --> 18:53.400 we're not giving you credit because there are rules. 18:53.400 --> 18:55.080 You're a resident in New Jersey. 18:55.080 --> 18:56.680 You're not a resident in New York. 18:56.680 --> 18:57.800 You're not going to New York. 18:57.800 --> 18:58.840 We're not going to give you a credit. 18:59.400 --> 19:01.720 And that is not a good one. 19:01.720 --> 19:03.720 Those taxes could go through the roof. 19:03.720 --> 19:05.080 They're 9, 10, 11, 12%. 19:05.880 --> 19:07.160 They're super high. 19:07.160 --> 19:07.560 Yeah. 19:07.560 --> 19:08.040 All right. 19:08.040 --> 19:08.280 This is crazy. 19:08.280 --> 19:11.480 And this is all based upon and really you nailed it. 19:11.480 --> 19:14.200 We used to have remote workers, people went around the country. 19:14.200 --> 19:18.920 But right now it's really based upon the fact that the pandemic 19:18.920 --> 19:21.160 allowed people to scatter around the country. 19:21.800 --> 19:24.600 So many people are working from places that they never were before. 19:25.240 --> 19:28.680 Pandemic spread them all around and these issues are starting to filter up 19:28.680 --> 19:30.600 and states are getting aggressive on it. 19:30.600 --> 19:31.080 All right. 19:31.080 --> 19:31.400 Sorry. 19:31.400 --> 19:33.000 Well, I took us down another path there. 19:33.800 --> 19:35.160 We can get back on track. 19:35.960 --> 19:38.920 What are some other hot topics you think we should discuss today? 19:39.480 --> 19:43.400 Well, certainly you're still battling on the income tax side 19:43.960 --> 19:48.200 on the transition from cost of performance to market-based sourcing. 19:48.200 --> 19:52.680 So that was historically cost of performances from the 60s. 19:52.680 --> 19:54.920 Most states adopted it under Yedipa, 19:54.920 --> 19:57.320 the Uniform Division of Income Tax Purposes Act. 19:57.960 --> 20:00.920 When you're selling things other than tangible personal property, what we do, 20:01.720 --> 20:04.360 a cost of performance is an expense side look. 20:04.360 --> 20:09.400 It's where I'm performing the services where I incur expenses to generate the service. 20:10.040 --> 20:12.600 So for accountants, lawyers, it's where we're located. 20:13.320 --> 20:18.280 That allows you a business to exploit the marketplace of a destination state. 20:18.920 --> 20:23.160 So I could be in Illinois, all of my customers, all my clients are in Iowa. 20:23.800 --> 20:27.400 If Iowa had cost of performance, they would get nothing of my income, 20:27.400 --> 20:30.280 even though my work is all being done for Iowa clients. 20:30.920 --> 20:34.840 So 15 years ago, and now it's trickled to over half the states, 20:34.840 --> 20:38.920 have changed from cost of performance to market-based sourcing. 20:38.920 --> 20:41.480 Market-based sourcing is a customer-based. 20:41.480 --> 20:42.520 Where is the market? 20:42.520 --> 20:43.960 Where are my customers located? 20:44.520 --> 20:47.640 Which seems on its face, simple. 20:47.640 --> 20:50.440 It's also from a political perspective, right? 20:50.440 --> 20:53.160 You're exploiting my marketplace, selling to my people, 20:53.160 --> 20:54.840 therefore you should pay a tax on my state. 20:55.720 --> 21:00.280 It is if it's singular, but for what we do, for example, 21:00.280 --> 21:04.920 we provide consulting services, accounting services to multi-state businesses. 21:05.880 --> 21:08.840 Where does that service really go? 21:09.560 --> 21:10.600 Where's the benefit? 21:10.600 --> 21:13.480 And they have these different where the benefit is delivered, 21:13.480 --> 21:16.440 where the service is delivered, where the benefit is enjoyed. 21:16.440 --> 21:21.320 There's a variety of definitions of trying to find what the marketplace is. 21:21.960 --> 21:24.120 And really, it's kind of a made-up system. 21:24.120 --> 21:25.560 We don't know necessarily. 21:26.280 --> 21:28.360 And it defaults to where did you send the bill? 21:29.320 --> 21:32.280 And what's funny, you'll find this ironic. 21:32.280 --> 21:34.280 The statutes speak of billing address. 21:35.000 --> 21:36.840 You're and I are about the same age. 21:36.840 --> 21:38.360 I'm going to ask you a question. 21:38.360 --> 21:41.480 How many bills do you send out through the mail? 21:43.160 --> 21:43.880 Zero. 21:43.880 --> 21:45.320 Exactly. 21:45.320 --> 21:49.480 I send everything electronically, either through their billing system or through an email. 21:50.120 --> 21:54.040 They don't even have billing addresses for anybody because it doesn't matter anymore. 21:54.040 --> 21:56.040 But the statutes still call for billing address. 21:56.840 --> 21:59.240 Okay, but if they're going to buy billing address, maybe that's fair. 21:59.240 --> 22:00.440 Maybe it's unfair. 22:00.440 --> 22:02.280 The statutes are unclear. 22:02.920 --> 22:09.480 And the issue is some states want to jump on to the market-based sourcing bandwagon 22:09.480 --> 22:11.000 without changing their statutes. 22:11.720 --> 22:16.040 Okay, so there's a case out of Texas called Sirius XM, right? 22:16.040 --> 22:16.440 Oh, yeah. 22:16.440 --> 22:19.080 They have basically a cost of performance statute. 22:19.080 --> 22:24.280 They tried to argue that Sirius XM, which only produces one show in Texas, 22:24.280 --> 22:25.560 that's Willie's Roadhouse. 22:25.560 --> 22:27.480 Everything else is done outside of Texas. 22:27.480 --> 22:29.640 So they gave a small little piece to Texas. 22:29.640 --> 22:32.600 Texas want to argue it's the number of subscribers in Texas, 22:32.600 --> 22:34.360 which would be market-based sourcing. 22:34.360 --> 22:38.440 But they lost it to Texas Supreme Court because their statute is the old statute 22:38.440 --> 22:39.960 and they haven't changed it yet. 22:39.960 --> 22:40.440 All right. 22:40.440 --> 22:43.480 Are they going to change their statute then to go back to this? 22:43.480 --> 22:46.760 If they're smart, but trying to get legislators to change, 22:46.760 --> 22:49.320 to even focus on state taxes. 22:49.320 --> 22:51.960 Seriously, Randy, I love it. 22:52.840 --> 22:54.280 I'm in a minority of one. 22:57.400 --> 22:57.720 All right. 22:57.720 --> 23:03.320 So let me try to wrap my mind around this just from kind of like what you and I do. 23:03.320 --> 23:05.240 So we travel around the country. 23:05.240 --> 23:12.200 We're educating whoever, CPAs, usually me, UCPAs, and other people as well. 23:12.200 --> 23:15.560 I'm not selling when I'm out doing this. 23:15.560 --> 23:17.880 It does generate revenue. 23:17.960 --> 23:21.400 So if I'm speaking in 12 different states this year, 23:22.600 --> 23:25.000 what does that do for me tax-wise? 23:25.720 --> 23:28.040 Well, and here's the question, and I don't want to get personal, 23:28.040 --> 23:31.400 but are you being, whether you're generating work, which is solicitation, 23:32.120 --> 23:35.800 or you're performing services that you get paid for are two different things. 23:37.400 --> 23:38.440 Are you getting paid? 23:38.440 --> 23:41.960 Let's assume, okay, I do get paid at times when I'm speaking. 23:42.120 --> 23:51.320 But in addition, I don't solicit business, but I explain what Trimerit does when I'm out there, 23:51.320 --> 23:56.840 but that's a very short one minute of my entire presentation. 23:56.840 --> 23:58.200 So I guess it's two different things. 23:59.000 --> 24:01.720 And not all salespeople are successful on their sales. 24:01.720 --> 24:05.400 They go and pitch their products, but they don't generate necessarily revenue. 24:05.400 --> 24:07.880 Sometimes you do that, and this is what we hope for, 24:07.880 --> 24:11.160 is that you'll have something in the future where people will remember you. 24:11.160 --> 24:12.440 They'll have a question. 24:12.440 --> 24:13.240 You talked on that. 24:14.440 --> 24:16.920 It's not solicitation, give me your work today. 24:16.920 --> 24:18.440 It's give me your work tomorrow. 24:19.080 --> 24:21.720 Does that still qualify as solicitation? 24:21.720 --> 24:22.840 Most likely it does. 24:22.840 --> 24:27.000 It's advertising, it's promotion, and those things. 24:27.000 --> 24:28.440 And we're getting compensated. 24:28.440 --> 24:31.960 I'm actually a W2 employee, so I get paid. 24:31.960 --> 24:35.080 Now it varies how I get paid based upon how my year is going, 24:35.080 --> 24:38.600 but I get paid for every minute that I'm working or not working. 24:38.920 --> 24:39.160 Right. 24:39.720 --> 24:40.120 All right. 24:40.680 --> 24:43.320 So, well, I just want everybody to know this is my last day. 24:43.320 --> 24:44.120 I'll be retiring. 24:44.120 --> 24:46.840 Jordan can never retire because we need him 24:48.360 --> 24:50.200 because these rules are too complicated, 24:50.200 --> 24:52.120 and I just don't want to think about them anymore. 24:53.160 --> 24:53.880 All right. 24:53.880 --> 24:55.480 I will not retire. 24:55.480 --> 24:57.080 I just rescinded my retirement. 24:57.080 --> 24:59.320 That is not going to happen at this point, 24:59.320 --> 25:04.760 but I'm glad that you personally exist and you cannot retire 25:04.760 --> 25:06.520 because we all need you, like I just said. 25:06.520 --> 25:12.360 But the one thing that seems to have been a big issue, 25:12.360 --> 25:15.000 I don't know if it's a big deal in the salt arena or not, 25:15.000 --> 25:18.280 but after the Tax Cut and Jobs Act, when we got changed, 25:18.280 --> 25:19.160 that's where it came, right? 25:19.160 --> 25:22.200 The $10,000 after the Tax Cut and Jobs Act, 25:22.200 --> 25:27.560 where limitations to $10,000 of tax on your Schedule A. 25:28.360 --> 25:30.440 All these states or a lot of states now came out 25:30.440 --> 25:32.440 with this pass-through entity tax. 25:32.440 --> 25:34.440 Is there anything we need to be aware of with that? 25:35.400 --> 25:37.800 The first thing I tell people about it is that 25:37.800 --> 25:40.360 it's not one size fits all, right? 25:40.360 --> 25:42.040 There are people that make sense for 25:42.040 --> 25:43.560 and people that it doesn't make sense for. 25:44.200 --> 25:48.600 And to the extent that you're a multi-state business, 25:48.600 --> 25:51.160 the compliance costs can be quite hefty. 25:51.160 --> 25:52.840 That analysis has to be done upfront 25:52.840 --> 25:54.200 as to whether it's a benefit or not. 25:54.760 --> 25:57.000 And the second part of that is that the states, 25:57.000 --> 26:01.000 this is one of those things that was not a federally mandated, 26:01.000 --> 26:03.800 this is what a PTE law should look like. 26:04.440 --> 26:05.560 They just said, we'll allow them, 26:05.560 --> 26:07.080 we'll allow the states to do this. 26:07.080 --> 26:09.720 And the states have gone in a number of different ways. 26:09.720 --> 26:11.800 And there are tremendous differences 26:11.800 --> 26:14.600 between how each state allows you to do it. 26:14.600 --> 26:17.320 When you make the election, how you do the election, 26:17.320 --> 26:19.480 what benefits you get, what credits you get, 26:19.480 --> 26:22.840 and who gets the credits for taxes paid elsewhere. 26:22.840 --> 26:25.400 And I advise you, it's something that we really 26:25.400 --> 26:28.200 don't get involved in because truly it takes 26:28.200 --> 26:31.400 knowledge of a number of state-specific rules 26:31.400 --> 26:32.600 on this very small topic. 26:32.600 --> 26:35.240 And I find accountants have a better grasp of that. 26:35.800 --> 26:37.720 But it just adds to the complexity. 26:37.720 --> 26:41.320 So before everybody says, I want to take advantage of this, 26:41.320 --> 26:43.560 they really need to sit down with their consultant and say, 26:43.560 --> 26:44.520 how much can I save? 26:44.520 --> 26:45.960 How much is it going to cost? 26:45.960 --> 26:47.000 How long is it going to last? 26:47.000 --> 26:48.040 Yeah. 26:48.040 --> 26:49.640 I know it's a topic, at least, 26:49.640 --> 26:54.200 but Illinois initiated this two years ago, I think. 26:54.840 --> 26:56.840 And so it's something I've looked at as well. 26:56.840 --> 26:59.480 And we are like you, we are Illinois-based, 26:59.480 --> 27:01.240 but we have people all over the country. 27:01.240 --> 27:05.720 And so from that standpoint, it probably is too much time 27:05.720 --> 27:07.480 and effort for us to deal with that. 27:08.280 --> 27:08.760 It's a lot. 27:08.760 --> 27:11.160 I mean, the first question my managing partner asked is, 27:11.160 --> 27:11.880 is this good for us? 27:11.880 --> 27:13.080 And I go, nope, move on. 27:15.320 --> 27:15.640 All right. 27:15.640 --> 27:16.120 There you go. 27:16.120 --> 27:16.920 Easy answer. 27:16.920 --> 27:18.360 So I assume if I asked you, you're 27:18.360 --> 27:19.640 going to tell me the same thing. 27:19.640 --> 27:20.280 That's right. 27:20.280 --> 27:20.840 That's right. 27:20.840 --> 27:21.160 All right. 27:21.160 --> 27:23.560 But I'm not going to take that as advice because we are not, 27:23.560 --> 27:25.640 we don't have that contract in place. 27:26.120 --> 27:27.720 All right. 27:27.720 --> 27:32.120 So I think whether I want to or not, 27:32.120 --> 27:34.120 I think we probably need to start wrapping it up 27:34.120 --> 27:35.800 because I would love to keep talking. 27:36.360 --> 27:39.720 But any final thoughts on solved issues 27:39.720 --> 27:41.560 before we go to a couple of last questions? 27:42.200 --> 27:43.080 No, no, no. 27:43.080 --> 27:45.400 There is still stuff going on. 27:45.400 --> 27:47.000 There's decisions being made every day. 27:47.640 --> 27:49.320 It's hard to be mindful of everything 27:49.320 --> 27:50.840 that goes on a nationwide basis. 27:50.840 --> 27:54.040 Pick the big states and then send me an email if you could. 27:54.600 --> 27:56.200 I write about this stuff all the time. 27:56.200 --> 27:57.080 It's kind of fun to do. 27:57.080 --> 27:58.120 It's just lots going on. 27:58.760 --> 27:59.320 Yep. 27:59.320 --> 27:59.960 All right. 27:59.960 --> 28:03.640 So make sure you have somebody knowledgeable in your corner 28:03.640 --> 28:06.040 that you can have help you with these things. 28:06.040 --> 28:06.360 All right. 28:06.360 --> 28:08.280 So we went through this last time, 28:08.920 --> 28:10.040 but we're going to do it again. 28:10.760 --> 28:12.440 We're talking all business stuff today. 28:12.440 --> 28:14.200 What are your outside of work passions? 28:14.200 --> 28:15.720 What do you enjoy doing when you're not 28:16.440 --> 28:18.360 dealing with state and local taxes? 28:18.360 --> 28:21.240 Well, I've become more of an avid golfer 28:21.240 --> 28:23.160 than I think I was three or four years ago. 28:24.120 --> 28:26.600 Certainly, the pandemic lent itself to that. 28:27.320 --> 28:29.080 There's lots of free time. 28:29.080 --> 28:32.040 Golf courses were wide open and no one was really around you. 28:32.040 --> 28:34.280 You could limit it, your exposure to anybody else. 28:34.280 --> 28:36.920 So during the pandemic, I've become much more of a golfer. 28:37.480 --> 28:39.320 We continue to RV around the country 28:39.320 --> 28:42.120 for college football games, which is also a passion. 28:42.120 --> 28:44.840 And then just talking tax is kind of kind of silly, 28:44.840 --> 28:46.600 but it's kind of fun. 28:46.600 --> 28:47.240 No, I agree. 28:47.240 --> 28:48.680 I do the same thing. 28:48.680 --> 28:51.800 So from an RV standpoint, going for, I can't remember, 28:51.880 --> 28:54.520 University of Illinois or what's your school? 28:55.800 --> 28:57.800 My wife and I both have degrees from Illinois. 28:57.800 --> 29:00.120 All three of our daughters have degrees from Illinois, 29:00.120 --> 29:01.320 and that's only two and a half hours away. 29:01.320 --> 29:02.920 So that's the number one spot. 29:02.920 --> 29:04.200 We all have connections there, 29:05.000 --> 29:07.560 but we spend some time every year down in the South, 29:08.200 --> 29:09.320 SEC football games. 29:09.960 --> 29:12.040 Since the last time we talked, we bought some space 29:12.040 --> 29:14.280 down in Alabama where we keep the RV 29:14.280 --> 29:16.520 and spend a good portion of the winter down there. 29:16.520 --> 29:18.920 So Illinois would be number one, 29:18.920 --> 29:20.120 and then some SEC schools. 29:20.120 --> 29:21.560 Indiana, my undergrad. 29:21.560 --> 29:23.000 Always on top of the list. 29:23.000 --> 29:23.480 All right. 29:23.480 --> 29:24.120 Indiana as well. 29:24.120 --> 29:26.840 And don't forget about those Alabama nexus rules 29:26.840 --> 29:29.000 and state tax rules. 29:29.000 --> 29:31.400 Trust me, that is of utmost concern. 29:32.520 --> 29:33.240 All right. 29:33.240 --> 29:34.920 And then if anybody wants to, 29:34.920 --> 29:38.360 and I know you're very willing to talk to people 29:38.360 --> 29:39.640 about any questions they have. 29:39.640 --> 29:41.080 If people wanted to get a hold of you 29:41.080 --> 29:43.240 or find out more about what you're doing, 29:43.240 --> 29:44.280 where would they reach out? 29:44.920 --> 29:50.760 Well, easiest way is probably email jgoodman at hmb. 29:51.560 --> 29:54.120 Law.com for Horace Marcus and Burke Law, 29:54.120 --> 29:57.480 or HMB Legal Consulting is our new marketing name. 29:57.480 --> 30:01.880 Cell phone 312-515-3225. 30:01.880 --> 30:03.000 That's the way to get a hold of me. 30:03.000 --> 30:04.280 Don't try the office. 30:04.280 --> 30:04.920 Look at you. 30:05.480 --> 30:07.560 Look at you giving out the cell phone and everything. 30:07.560 --> 30:08.760 Whatever. 30:08.760 --> 30:11.800 You know, our 10 million listeners 30:11.800 --> 30:13.400 are all going to be calling you at once now. 30:13.400 --> 30:14.440 I hope they do. 30:15.640 --> 30:17.960 So you also have this email you send out. 30:17.960 --> 30:20.040 I don't know if it's weekly where you have some funny, 30:21.000 --> 30:21.960 what's that called? 30:21.960 --> 30:22.680 Or what are you doing there? 30:22.680 --> 30:23.800 It's called the Hump Day Humor. 30:23.800 --> 30:25.080 It started in the pandemic. 30:25.080 --> 30:28.680 So probably after the last time we spoke on this forum, 30:29.240 --> 30:29.960 I put it out there. 30:29.960 --> 30:32.600 The first one was tricks from working from home 30:32.600 --> 30:34.200 because I work remotely, you work remotely. 30:34.200 --> 30:35.640 Here's some tricks that I've learned over time 30:35.640 --> 30:37.000 of how to deal with family at home. 30:37.560 --> 30:40.600 And it's evolved into a weekly attempt 30:40.600 --> 30:42.200 at bringing humor to people's lives. 30:42.200 --> 30:46.680 So I usually started off with a little story about something, 30:46.680 --> 30:48.360 mostly expressions I've been on, 30:48.360 --> 30:50.200 the history of expressions. 30:50.200 --> 30:55.320 I throw in 10 non-political, non-denominational, 30:55.320 --> 30:58.280 clean humor with a little commentary. 30:58.280 --> 31:00.680 And then, of course, I put a little plug for HMB at the end. 31:00.680 --> 31:03.640 But it's great as there's literally thousands of people 31:03.640 --> 31:05.240 now that I send this to. 31:05.240 --> 31:07.160 And I think in all of the time, 31:07.160 --> 31:09.640 I've had maybe 10 people say, take me off the list. 31:09.640 --> 31:11.000 So it's been great. 31:11.000 --> 31:11.880 It's fun for me. 31:11.880 --> 31:13.080 And apparently it's great. 31:13.640 --> 31:14.280 I won't say it's great. 31:14.280 --> 31:17.000 It's good reading for people that I know. 31:17.080 --> 31:18.600 Oh, I believe me, I enjoy it. 31:18.600 --> 31:19.560 I look forward to it. 31:19.560 --> 31:22.680 I usually will copy one or two things 31:22.680 --> 31:25.400 and send it out to a text to my family 31:25.400 --> 31:26.600 because they're funny. 31:26.600 --> 31:28.920 And I really appreciate you doing that. 31:28.920 --> 31:32.280 So at a minimum, if nothing else, email Jordan 31:32.280 --> 31:35.560 and get on that list because it's a nice break up the week, 31:35.560 --> 31:38.280 laugh on a Wednesday morning or whatever time it comes out. 31:38.280 --> 31:39.160 Exactly. 31:39.160 --> 31:39.880 Oh, that's really good. 31:39.880 --> 31:41.560 I forgot that that's a new thing. 31:43.080 --> 31:44.360 Oh, it is great. 31:44.360 --> 31:45.880 I laugh every time I look at it. 31:45.880 --> 31:46.360 So good. 31:47.560 --> 31:47.800 All right. 31:47.800 --> 31:51.080 Well, Jordan, I appreciate you being the repeat guest. 31:51.080 --> 31:53.800 We will definitely, as long as we're both still working, 31:53.800 --> 31:57.320 we will schedule another one in a few years and do this again. 31:57.320 --> 31:59.560 So hope to see you in an airport again soon. 31:59.560 --> 32:01.320 Well, I'm sure we'll run into each other 32:01.320 --> 32:02.920 at a conference somewhere this year. 32:02.920 --> 32:04.680 So Jordan, it was awesome having you on 32:04.680 --> 32:05.880 and great talking with you. 32:05.880 --> 32:06.040 All right. 32:06.040 --> 32:07.160 Good talking to you, Randy. 32:07.160 --> 32:07.660 Bye-bye. 32:08.840 --> 32:12.440 Thank you for joining us today on The Unique CPA. 32:13.400 --> 32:16.120 You can find the show notes for today's episode 32:16.120 --> 32:20.040 and learn more about TriMerit at theuniquecpa.com. 32:20.920 --> 32:23.560 Remember to subscribe and leave a five-star rating 32:23.560 --> 32:25.720 on your favorite podcasting app. 32:25.720 --> 32:29.480 And join us next time for more expertise and insights 32:29.480 --> 32:31.640 on The Unique CPA.