William Curb: Welcome to Hacking Your ADHD. I'm your host, William Curb, and I have ADHD. On this podcast, I dig into the tools, tactics, and best practices to help you work with your ADHD brain. Hey team, today I'm joined by Alex Bellitter, senior manager of coaching at Shimmer, an ADHD coaching platform that's guided over 75,000 sessions. If this sounds a bit familiar, I also did an interview with Shimmer's CEO, Chris Wang, last year, but of course, this is a completely different episode and we're covering a lot more.
And while Shimmer has mentioned it certainly isn't the focus of what we're talking about today. Alex holds a master's in psychology and is a national board certified health and wellness coach. She's passionate about building a neuro inclusive approach to coaching and helping people redefine what success looks like for their unique brains. We get into what burnout really looks like for ADHD brains and how the grinded out mindset backfires pretty much every time. Alex shares how resilience isn't about powering through and we also unpack the ideas of capacity, how we burn through future energy, and why rest, play, and flexibility are actually key parts of productivity. Plus, we get into ADHD inertia, smart scaffolding, and that tricky process of rediscovering your strengths when your brain insists that you don't have any.
If you'd like to follow along on the show notes page, you can find that at hackingyouradhd.com/251. All right, keep on listening to find out how to stop using exhaustion as a warning light and actually start making space for yourself. All right, well, it's so much fun to get to talk to you. I was just wondering if we could start off with a little bit about what you do and a little bit about Shimmer and stuff.
Alex Bellitter: Yeah, absolutely. So I am the senior manager of coaching at Shimmer. So Shimmer is an ADHD management platform. So the butter of what we do is expert ADHD coaching where you get to work one-on-one with an ADHD coach who helps you achieve your goals, that better version that you'd like to achieve. They partner with you each week.
And then we also have a community platform for those that would like to do body doubling. So co-working with other people, getting to meet experts. So actually today we have someone from YNAB coming in who's going to be talking about ADHD and finances. So lots of events like that, getting to share insights from coaching sessions and learning hubs, just really about getting to meet other ADHD'ers on their journey as well.
So over 75,000 coaching sessions at this point. Really excited about it. So my role within that is helping create the content for the workshops, learning modules, overseeing the coaches, making sure we're delivering high quality care, leading the training. So getting to do a little bit of everything in support of helping our community.
William Curb: One of the things that I thought was really cool when I looked at Shimmer is just the integration of technology and how it works together so that it's offload some of the stuff that we normally have to kind of just keep in our heads.
Alex Bellitter: Yeah. So when Shimmer first started, so I've been with Shimmer a little over three years now, the app didn't exist yet. As a coach, we were calling people on the phone and we're just doing a general app where there was no video, it was just audio. And what we saw was there was a lot of energy in the calls, a lot of motivation. And then the call ends and with it kind of the coaching journey of like, well, what am I supposed to do until the next session?
So really, that's what the app was created to help solve for is how do I keep my goals top of mind, how I keep my actions top of mind, where can I get good resources, reputable resources, what's something I can do every day that helps with ADHD management and just kind of filling that gap that we saw. Like, this can be done better. Yeah.
William Curb: I mean, that's one of the things that has always like occurred to me is the keeping goals top of mind seems like should be an easy concept is like, oh, this is what I'm working towards. But then two days in, I'm doing something completely different and like, well, this is what's interesting to me right now.
Alex Bellitter: Yeah. And I think that's the biggest difference because when people think about life coaching, it can kind of become this like monolithic glob of like, everyone's coaching in the same way and ADHD coaching is different because of that. We know that like impulsivity and attention hyperactivity makes it very hard to focus on what's most important. It's generally not a motivation issue. People generally really want to change every session I have. It's never people are unmotivated of like, I don't really care about that.
They care so deeply. And it's how ADHD is playing a role in those goals. That makes ADHD coaching so different of really working with the person to help bring it top of mind, not just assuming that's going to happen.
William Curb: And I think that also like ties into this idea that we often have this like internal narrative that we're being lazy, but everyone's so motivated to do things. It's like, you can't be want to do something and lazyness is like, I don't want to do the thing. This is like, no, I want to do it. I just can't figure out how.
Alex Bellitter: I'll also pretty frequently hear the word disciplined. If I was just more disciplined of and I think the word disciplined is largely linked to motivation. Like if I really wanted it, I would just try harder. And, you know, I've had the privilege of being with people for a couple years on their coaching journey as they take breaks, come back. And I've never seen someone that wasn't motivated to make a change. It's also something that has to kind of be called out of like every week you're showing up and saying you want to change. If you really didn't want it, you wouldn't keep coming every week so we can talk about this. You'd get tired of the conversation and you're not. You desire this so much. So discipline is one of the words that we hear all the time and it's not a matter of discipline.
William Curb: Yeah, it's definitely something that early on in my journey of trying to get like, oh, I just need to buckle down. I need to be disciplined. I need to...
Alex Bellitter: White-knuckle it. Like if I just grind it a little bit more.
William Curb: Yeah, it's the idea that this should all just come naturally to me, that I shouldn't have to struggle with doing this. If I really wanted to, I would wake up at 5 a.m. every day and I would go for a 10-mile run and then I'd be... everything would fall into place and I'm like, that is not how it works.
Alex Bellitter: It is not how it works. And it's unfortunately kind of what society preaches in a way is kind of this grind mentality of to be successful, you have to be hyperproductive.
And what are we defining as productive? It gets very, very easy to lean into I'm just not doing enough. I am not enough. Like I'm just not making the cut and that's not the case.
William Curb: Yeah, and it often leads us to not taking breaks and because we're like, oh, I need to keep going. I need to keep doing all these things and not being able to see that we're doing too much and it is hurting us.
Alex Bellitter: Yeah, and I have a conversation with a lot of my members about resilience. And I think resilience gets a little bit of a bad rep too of it being one of those psychology buzzwords. And I think sometimes it gets associated with discipline too of being resilient just means I focus on being productive. But I really love the metaphor of going to the gym where if I went to the gym every day and I picked up 100 pound dumbbells and every day I was like, hey, I'm just going to push myself and eventually I'm going to be stronger. I'm going to tear muscles. I'm probably not going to go back to the gym.
I'm going to end up hurt. And that's sort of what we do to ourselves emotionally too when we're just saying like, I need to be more disciplined and just like push through that wall. We got to work up to it and we're building muscles for resilience. So there's going to be setbacks. There's going to be recovery days, but we build that consistency over time and we absolutely take breaks from the gym. Otherwise our bodies are going to give out.
William Curb: Yeah, I have torn a muscle and you... Oh yeah, 100%. Like that is so you're like, oh, I can't do anything now.
Alex Bellitter: And then retroactively you're usually like, oh, I probably shouldn't have been lifting that. But in the moment it just feels like the thing to do.
William Curb: It's also funny too because it's the idea then when I started doing stuff again, I was like, it was so hard to get back to where I was. You know, still working on some of those things where it's like, oh yeah, when you really hurt yourself, it is more than just taking a week off.
Alex Bellitter: We talk about burnout prevention a lot too because once you hit that wall of like, I really just don't have more in me. I'm feeling negative. I'm not feeling capable.
I'm overwhelmed. You do have to take a lot of time to rest and recover and then people get impatient because, well, I didn't do anything the past two weeks, the past month. Now I have to make up for it. And then we get this cycle going of now I'm overexerting myself to make up for this lost time that I'm feeling rather than thinking about like, well, how am I going to prevent this again?
And again, it's understandable. We never want to feel like we're missing out or losing productivity or not doing enough. So it's a very understandable cycle, but it's also a harmful one. Yeah.
William Curb: And it is very hard to reprogram our heads to being like, oh yeah, rest is productive.
Alex Bellitter: I get an eye roll anytime that conversation comes up is like, okay, you and your coaching, but it's like, it is. We have to be kind to ourselves. Otherwise, we hit the wall.
William Curb: And for people that really don't want rest is being productive, it's fine. Don't be productive all the time. You don't need to. That's not how you should value your worth.
That's not the most important thing about you. So, okay, don't be productive. Work on being happy and rest is one of those things that often make people happy for doing restful things that are energizing. Just scrolling on your phone, not rest, but doing stuff with playing board games or something.
Alex Bellitter: I also like to talk about the fact that as we increase our sense of well-being, like as we are experiencing more joy, it leads to more productivity. So at the end of the day, if you really are like, I have to be achieving X, Y, Z in my career or home life, maybe not so much things that you're finding joy in, giving yourself joy will lead to those things. So it's still okay to engage in them.
William Curb: Yeah, it's amazing how the weeks where I'm like, one of the funny things that I found recently is, so I have this board game night with dads in the neighborhood and we play into the night because that's when we all have free time. And so I get less sleep that night, but I'm always better off the next day because I'm feeling happier and being like, oh, I had a good time and this is, and it just seems so counterintuitive to me.
Alex Bellitter: Of less sleep being more restful because it was nourishing in like a different way. When you play into the night out of curiosity, are we talking 11 a.m., 5 a.m.? 11 to midnight. That sounds great.
William Curb: Because then I have to get home and actually go to bed and do all the stuff. Because normally I'm like getting ready for bed at like 9.30, so.
Alex Bellitter: Oh, a couple hours later then, but worth it.
William Curb: Yeah, and it's one of those things where I'm like, oh, this, having this social outlet where I get to do these things is so important to just make sure it's in my calendar.
Alex Bellitter: Yeah, and in addition, one putting personal things on the calendar, I think it's very hard for people to do of like, that's important too, absolutely. Like he said, I deserve to have that. It's good for me.
It pays off in the long run. I also talked to a lot of people about leaving white space on the calendar of like, yes, we want all the important things on the calendar, let it be our source of truth. But it doesn't mean we fill up all the white space because the white space is healthy too of like blank means good. It means rest. It means fun things that you didn't plan for. And sometimes with ADHD, you don't want to feel like everything is planned. So it gives you some flexibilities with the calendar. It doesn't feel like a jail.
William Curb: Yeah, well, and I find the, if I try to over plan, I always hit that wall of, oh, I did not think about these certain things that also need to get stuck in these days. Like happened to be on the phone call with customer service for an hour this morning. Was not in my schedule, but did need to happen.
And so it's great to have the white space. Oh, I can do these things because it needs to happen today. And I can't just, I don't want to have to completely rearrange my schedule every time something comes up because something's always going to come up.
Alex Bellitter: Always, whether that's being sick or needing caregiving things or your neighbor needs something, there's always going to be something that makes the perfect plan not perfect.
William Curb: Which is why, yeah, give this flexibility so that, and I think that's a huge piece of what I initially dealt with with ADHD. It was always feeling behind and being like, no, I can't do that. I need to, I need to keep going. I need to keep going.
Alex Bellitter: I actually had a really great conversation the other day with someone that's also doing coaching, but they had shared for the first time, like when they're saying, being flexible, it was like, I guess it doesn't necessarily matter what I choose to do, as long as I'm happy I chose to do it. And I think that's kind of the hallmark of flexibility is like when you are intentionally choosing something, even if it's not what you planned, if you're like, okay, I'm going to be exercising this amount, and you intentionally say, I'm not going to be exercising today, and I feel good with that choice. It's so hard to get to that point because we have this idea of like, this is what good looks like or good choice does, but it's, does this really work for my life today, my energy, my capacity, and that really changes what our goals end up looking like in real life.
William Curb: Yeah, I think that concept of capacity is really important there too, because too often we have this vision of an infinite energy store that we can tap into when we need to, and it can sometimes feel that way with ADHD because we can get into hyper-focus and like really dive in, but I'm like realizing that I'm borrowing that from like my future self. I'm focusing in, I'm borrowing all this energy from the future until there's nothing more to take from the future.
Alex Bellitter: It's super easy to underestimate how we're going to feel in the future, and with ADHD it can happen in two different ways. So the first is feeling like, I'm going to have all this energy, so I'm going to plan to do this really ambitious hike, and then you wake up and you got some sniffles and you're like, I wish it was a one mile hike rather than a 10 mile hike, but I said 10 miles because it looked really cool. And on the other side, the tasks that are naturally a little bit less interesting, underestimating the capacity to do it of, oh, well, you know, I always hate going through taxes.
I'm not going to be able to do it Saturday. Like it goes both ways of feeling like things that are really exciting. I'm going to have all the energy to do it, things that are not exciting, I'm just not going to be able to touch it. It's going to take too long. So we generally not very good at knowing what future self can do.
William Curb: It's always hilarious with the time blindness aspects of like, oh yeah, that's going to take no time at all, and that's going to take forever. And how both of those are often very wrong.
A lot of times they're flipped. Yeah. Where I'm like, oh, doing the dishes, I can't, I don't have time to do that. And then I'm like, oh, that I'm going to get to spend some time finding some music or a podcast to listen to. And I'm like, I'm still in the introduction to this podcast and the dishes are done. I did not need to spend that much time prepping to do this.
Alex Bellitter: But now you earned all that time back. You know, the 45 minutes you thought it would take, you got like 42 of them back. What are we doing with those 42 minutes?
William Curb: Yeah, we could go pick up the living room too.
Alex Bellitter: Yeah, a lot of my clients like to time out. I wouldn't say they immediately like it, but we talk about the idea and they see like a chore menu of how long things actually take. And so just being able to like fit them in of like, well, vacuuming actually takes me nine minutes for my living room. Like I was going to watch TV for probably the next hour. I can go ahead and just do it quick.
William Curb: And I think that's a great way to do things is because we writing down how long things take and then being able to look it up and like, oh yeah, I have time to do this. And also realizing the one of the interesting things was that energy piece too is the if I'm not moving, I'm not going to want to start moving. And so it can be a little bit like, oh yeah, if I just do these other little chores, I get me moving around the house, I'm going to feel better and want to do the other things that I want to do because it's moving is going to give me energy.
Alex Bellitter: So it's a little bit off topic, but it's one of my favorite things to bring up just because I think it's a really fun term. Have you heard the term ADHD inertia? Or maybe rings a bell, but I didn't decide it anyways. What would you call it? So it's borrowed from physics of like an object, emotion stays in motion, object at rest stays at rest is just like that very beginning piece. If we can just like a break and break that first step, even if it's the smallest step in the world with ADHD inertia, you just kind of keep going of like whatever it is, even if you felt like your energy was really low, there was no capacity, your body's feeling good that I started doing the thing and keeps up with it. And it's one of those things that I think a lot of people with ADHD have experienced, they know it, but I think it's such a fun term that like psychologists refer to it as this ADHD inertia, the communities like, no, there's something about it that once I get going, I can't stop. But once I stop, I'm at rest for an extended period of time and don't make me switch again. Like I have entered rest mode.
William Curb: Yeah, I've heard people be say, talk about how they purposely just don't take off their shoes because as soon as they take off their shoes, ready to like lie down on the couch and chill. But they're like, I'm not gonna lie down on the couch with my shoes on, so then I'm gonna keep doing stuff until I'm actually ready to take a rest.
Alex Bellitter: Yeah, people like putting their shoes on first thing in the morning, they're like, well, I have to start my day because my shoes are on, I must have something to do just kind of like those cues that our brain is like, well, shoes mean doing things.
William Curb: And it's one of those just funny, like, this is not a hard thing to do, but it is something that can make significant differences in how your day is going.
Alex Bellitter: Yeah, a lot of my clients kind of in today's age with work from home, I think a lot of my clients actually do work from home. So like the process of getting dressed in the morning, how it changes how they interact in the workday or the moment five o'clock hits, changing into home clothes, even though they were home all day of like, that's my cue that I don't have to be in work mode as much. And I don't have to be checking my Slack or Teams messages at 9pm to see what's going on.
William Curb: Because never going to be something you want to see at 9pm.
Alex Bellitter: No, and if it is something that's happening at 9pm, your whole night's shot because you saw it at 9pm and now we're trying to resolve it.
William Curb: Because sometimes I'm like, getting off of like doing social media at night, I was like, there's, I've never seen a social media post that's gotten me ready to go to bed.
Alex Bellitter: That's fair. I've never heard it put that way. But that is true. There's nothing that has inspired me for it is time to sleep. This is it. I guess unless you're specifically searching like the importance of sleep at night. But even though a lot of time it's information you're already familiar with and not particularly aspirational.
William Curb: Yeah. And might be just me like, oh, now time to hyper focus on how to get the best night sleep. And then two hours later, been like, well, should have started this a little bit earlier in the day.
Alex Bellitter: Always hindsight. It's one of those things while you're in it, it's so hard to break out of. Yeah.
William Curb: And I do like also thinking about how this adding resistance or taking away resistance to doing these things really helps. Like so yeah, adding, putting on shoes is adding resistance to stopping. My wife has this app on her phone to be opening social media takes another seven seconds. And that kind of like, oh, if this, I have the time in my head to actually process the thoughts like I don't actually want to look at Instagram right now.
Alex Bellitter: And going back to kind of what we were saying about resilience, those are all forms of scaffolding that help with resilience rather than like, I have to use all this executive functioning to be aware of what's happening in the moment, make a different decision, like pause myself. Those are things that help you be resilient of, hey, you know, this, there's this thing I'm working on, and there's things in my environment that are helping. And I think that's something that people view as at least sometimes at least I know my, my coachy sometimes mentioned it, they feel like it's cheating of like, well, I didn't really do XYZ because so and so helped me or this prevented me and it's like, you set this up of like, you helped yourself be resilient in that like, it isn't a matter of just how do I push more. It was disciplined for you to say, hey, I want these tools to help me. And now you're reaping the benefits of it.
William Curb: Yeah, it's like the alarm that goes off on my phone once a week to remind me to take the trash bins out. I didn't remember, but that's okay. I thought of this system that made it so that I don't have to worry about it.
Alex Bellitter: And you still have to bring out the trash. One day we'll have a machine that takes the trash out to the curb, but in the meantime, you're still dealing with work.
William Curb: One of the things I'm sure a lot of people kind of wonder about is when they should go into coaching because I've talked about coaching quite a bit on the podcast because I've talked to a number of coaches and they're like, I don't know if I need coaching. They just kind of like, do I need the coaching? Do I need therapy? They're like, I want to do more, but I don't have a specific thing I want to work on. How do I approach this even?
Alex Bellitter: Yeah, I think that there's a lot of misconceptions about what coaching is too because sometimes people come in and they're like, okay, well, here's a list of things that I want to achieve. My coach is going to tell me which ones I need to start with and kind of assign a plan and that's not how coaching works either. I would say if the first question is, do I need therapy or do I need coaching? I think the first question is kind of like, what am I looking to achieve in those calls?
If you're trying to look to the past, if you're trying to really heal, so if there's some mental health support that you're looking for, if there's some trauma from the past, if there's something that you're really trying to work through of what does this mean for who I am and how I feel about it, that's probably going to be a little bit better suited for therapy, but if you're working towards a better future of how do I get something done? I want this and it's not happening. I see that future, but I don't know any of the steps to get there. Coaching is really going to be able to help you. When it comes to I don't know what my goals are, but I know I want something to be different, a really good coach is going to be able to help you figure out those goals of what's most important to you, what do you value, what are the best moments from the past that can help you set those goals. Coaching doesn't work well without goals, but a good coach can help elicit those of like, what really do I need to be spending my time on?
Of course, there's other routes too of like you're trying to solve a business issue, you might want to get a business coach or a business consultant, but most coaches can support any area of life as long as you know like I want to see change here. So I'd say the catalyst is like, am I ready to start experimenting with something new? If you know you want change, but you're not in a position to necessarily try new things, maybe you're a new parent. And the kid comes first and you want to see change in health and wellness. But right now, the newborn is going to be up at two to five a.m. And I'm not going to have energy to exercise, you might want to wait on health and wellness coaching.
If you want coaching around parenting, that might be the perfect time of I would like better systems because I'm not sleeping and my spouse is cranky because they're not sleeping. So really kind of like what's going on in life. And do I have the capacity to like make different changes or feel like I have the energy to try it?
William Curb: Yeah, because I think often it's hard to get started just because you don't know what you want. But knowing that, hope there's adding someone in your corner that can be like, well, let's explore what you want and figure out how we might be able to get there.
Alex Bellitter: I think it's a very daunting thing to always know exactly what you're shooting for without the help of someone else. It's so helpful to have someone brainstorm with you of like, what would that look like?
What are other routes? Because sometimes you come in with an idea of this is what I want to change. And through the conversation, it's actually kind of like the slightly adjacent goal, but way more like, that's actually what I want. And you can see the entire like course of coaching change. And it happens from that connection of being able to like, have your thoughts reflect and someone be curious, go a little bit deeper, you unlock a lot about yourself in the process. So even if you feel like I'm coming into coaching for a very hyper specific goal, sometimes it'll change along the way too.
William Curb: That's great to hear. I'm sure a lot of people appreciate knowing that like, yeah, you don't need to know exactly what you need. And sometimes it's going to, it'll come along the way, you just got to work at it.
Alex Bellitter: And very cliche thing, but trust the process of if I'm spending the time getting curious about it and setting goals and trying new things, you're going to get more information about who you are, what you like, what you don't like, and it's going to make goals more clear as you go.
William Curb: So one of the things that we had talked about earlier before the call, when we were talking about what we were going to talk about this idea of burnout, you were also talking about how there's like these multiple kinds of burnout.
And do you think you could go into that a little bit more? Because I'm sure I mean, burnout is such an amorphous term for so many people. And it is such a buzzword online sometimes where you're just like, I don't actually know what they're talking about.
Alex Bellitter: I hear that all the time of like, what even is burnout? And most of the time people are using it in vastly different ways. And it just kind of become this all encompassing term for like, stress or being tired, like what really is burnout when we're talking about it. So there is a framework for burnout. So Mozlog is a psychologist who burnout originally came from the workplace.
It's a workplace model that's been brought into like more personal areas of life. And with the burnout, there's generally three components and they build on each other. So the first thing is there's just too many demands of I feel absolutely exhausted, I feel depleted.
There's too much for me to do, I don't even know how to begin it. So that's kind of where it starts is exhaustion and overwhelmed. Then it'll trickle into cynicism of it's so much to do, I'm so exhausted, I don't feel positively about it at all. I'm feeling very detached from it.
My meaning is kind of starting to drop too. It's just stuff I have to do and I don't really know why I'm doing it anymore. And then the third element is now that I'm detached and feeling negative, I'm overwhelmed. I don't feel competent anymore. I don't feel capable. I don't feel like I can surmount this mountain. I've just like hit that wall. And once those three things happen, you've entered burnout is there's really no light at the end of the tunnel.
I don't feel like I have anything to draw on my capacity is just low. And the only thing left to do is recover. So when we're talking about burnout, that's one of the most established and studied frameworks. But then you have this very unique experience of neurodivergent burnout, which is different than the workplace of like, how does it compound when you're neurodivergent and burning out? And one of the more well known models for that is Jennifer Kemp, who is a licensed therapist. I know she has other accolades as well.
That's what's coming to mind now. If you're ever curious about autistic or ADHD burnout, highly recommend her work. She is a really, really wonderful scholar. And she talks about the fact like, yes, there are these dimensions of burnout that are happening, but when you are neurodivergent, there's other things. So there's more social and emotional demands. So that's what we're talking about masking of feeling like you can't necessarily show up as yourself. So you're expending energy to perform in a certain way, to show up in a certain way, or hide certain things. So maybe that you fidget or stim, you're trying to control that and regulate it.
Like I said, with the more emotional things, maybe with RSD, there's some bigger emotions happening, you're trying to mask that as well of like not letting someone know you're upset, or that the criticism or feedback at work, or in other areas of your life is impacting you in the same way. And then there's sensory things as well of it can be really hot in a room or really cold. It's really loud.
Other people seem to be tuning it out, but it's harder for you. So again, that's another added demand. So when we're talking about neurodivergent burnout, there's all these elements as well on top of the traditional model. So I think it's really interesting when you start thinking like, okay, there's a sequence of events that tell me I'm burning out. And I have to keep in mind how the neurodivergent experience is impacting it. And also, you kind of get this equation of like, when I do these things, I'm less likely to burn out and these things equal more burnout.
William Curb: It's also really hard for people to be like, okay, well, I'm feeling these things, but I can't take a break. Like, what's the next steps here?
Alex Bellitter: It's a really hard question. It does depend on the person. It also depends on your environment, because with burnout, I think it's really easy to think about burnout as a personal problem of like, I have to reduce the demands or I need to be more positive. But sometimes the world around you is being really negative, or they keep throwing demands. And they're saying like, Hey, this is required, or you're going to lose your job. Or you have a spouse saying like, if you don't carry your weight, like I might leave, that's a very different situation than like, I just want to be more positive is it really does feel like there's really big consequences for taking a break. And that's when like, it's going to sound overly simplistic. But it's one of the reasons that like, it takes a lot of work to get to that point is what is going to be the pathway of if this isn't sustainable, what is the alternative route that's a very similar thing.
I'll give an example in a minute that's going to still move me towards my goal, but be less demanding. So when it comes to I'll just kind of go back to, to like going to the gym, bringing back in that example of if every day I have to go to the gym, because my doctor says I need to bring down my cholesterol, and that's going to be part of it is having a healthy movement. I can't not go to the gym.
It is a demand for my health. I need to be showing up in that way. Am I choosing different equipment to do it? Is I am I bringing in a personal trainer?
Do I end up talking to nutritionist to go a different route? As easy as it sounds, it's really, really hard. That's why when you say like, what's the first step, the first step is still going to be really hard. And it's thinking about like, is there any alternative to what I'm doing right now, even if it's only going to work for a day, even if it's something that works for today, and it's not going to be a week, giving yourself some sort of out, because you know, like, if I continue, I'm going to hit the wall and recover is going to be way, way longer than a detour that might take extra time. Yeah.
William Curb: And it's really hard to, it's a hard first step, because I mean, part of the reason you haven't taken it yet is because you don't want to do it. You're like, I don't want to have to face that things need to change that what I'm doing right now isn't working. And oftentimes, when I'm like heading in those directions, it's one of those things where I'm like, I need to talk to someone else about this, because the way that the voices in my head are working right now are not working. They're just, they're wrong.
Alex Bellitter: Yeah, I do want to normalize sticking to things, because they're like working right now, even if you can see like, oh, if I keep doing this, this isn't going to be good. Brain doesn't necessarily like change.
It likes what's easiest, or like what I know, and what's familiar. Sometimes it's scary to do something else and feel like, well, what if I just failed doing that? At least this way, I'm failing in a way that I know, and I can expect what's going to happen. So change is inherently risky. It's a challenge to ourselves to like get uncomfortable. So then it becomes a question of, do I want to be uncomfortable now trying something new? Or do I want to be uncomfortable down the road when I've burnt out and now I'm frustrated with myself? There are two different types of discomfort. So which one am I going to be picking?
William Curb: It's hard, but it is really important to kind of get into because yeah, we don't want to actually be in full burnout and being, do you have oil now? Now, it takes a lot more to dig out at the hole.
Alex Bellitter: It's usually weeks to months when you hit a full burnout. It's not necessarily like I think sometimes it's been brought into other areas where I say, like, oh, I burnt out. I need like the night to rest is usually when you really hit that wall, it's going to take a really long time to kind of build up one self-esteem again, because you weren't feeling very capable. So like showing yourself, you can do it again, feeling hopeful about it, how it's going to go. Hope is a hard thing to cultivate. It's one of those mysterious things that like, how do I be more hopeful? And it's going to be harder to feel like, okay, there's meaning in trying it again, versus this is all just going to happen all over again. Like, why am I doing it?
William Curb: Yeah, and it's quite like the change needs to happen. I can't just be like, oh, I'm going to take a vacation and then I'm going to come right back into these systems that aren't working functional. Yeah. Because at that point, it's like wearing down your resilience where it's like, yeah, I'm not I'm not bouncing back every day that like I thought I would.
Alex Bellitter: I think that's a very relatable sigh where you're like, okay, well, I took my break. Isn't it supposed to be better now? Like, yes, breaks are absolutely necessary. But also, if you notice, you're always seeming to go towards burnout, like you said, the environment has to change. Otherwise, we really do have to double down on those breaks. If there's absolutely nothing that can change, then we're going to have to think more about recovery and what is proactive recovery.
That's absolutely a route you can go. But when you can change the system to prevent burnout, we're going to be in the long term way less demands on you, a lot less effortful.
William Curb: And I think one of the issues that can come up with being neurodivergent and dealing with this too is we have this image of what we should be able to do and can be really different than what a neurotypical person can do. And while we are great in some aspects, we have difficulties in others. And it's kind of finding where we exist in what we're capable of rather than trying to judge on these outside ideas.
Alex Bellitter: Yeah. And there's a lot that contributes to that. I love what you said about where we exist in that and how do you define what looks good for me and what I'm capable of for two reasons. The first is the fact that I think there's a lot of narratives around people with ADHD have an underdeveloped prefrontal cortex or they're developmentally delayed. And that's not the case at all.
I think there's a lot of language where it sounds lesser, where it's like, oh, my brain's just worse. And that's not the case. It has its own developmental path. And there are unique advantages to that of creativity and innovation and being able to draw connections between things that other people can't. There is an advantage to having a brain wired in that way. And I think it's so unhelpful when people talk about ADHD in a way that's really disabled.
You need to be performing that way. I think society does it as well of the way that you're approaching something with ADHD in a way that works for you is just as valid. Unfortunately, it doesn't get highlighted in our culture. It's not something that's necessarily lifted up and put a spotlight on, but it's absolutely just as valid. And it's really unfortunate that that's not what everyone gets to see in here.
William Curb: I was just thinking about this metaphor of running a relay race where everyone has a different thing they're supposed to do. And they can all be really good at that. But if you switched them up, it would not work nearly as well.
It's like, oh, well, the person that was running really fast now is swimming and it never swam before. So this is really hard for them. But they would be great over there. Figuring out where we're supposed to be in the races can be very hard. But it is valuable because it means that we can figure out where we fit in best. Yeah.
Alex Bellitter: And I was actually just having a conversation with them a couple of days ago about almost the flip side of that. I've at least seen they thought as well, an increase of like 80-H deers need to be in this role or they need to be doing this tasks. And sort of the flip side of that, of feeling like, oh, well, I can't be successful in other things because 80-H deers are like X. So I need to do X-Roll. And how limiting that is too of, well, if I want to be something else, it feels like, well, now I can't because I have 80-HD.
And that doesn't feel good either. And really, when we exercise our strengths, our strengths can be brought into any area that we would like. So it's almost unhelpful when we think about the fact that like all 80-H deers need to be blind. So I love your emphasizing like me, my person, not necessarily all 80-H deers in general, because there's like these huge sweeping statements where it's like, well, that's also limiting in its own way of like, it's great, you're embracing the 80-HD brain being different. But also now it feels like I have to be X because I'm 80-HD.
William Curb: At this friend that was an accountant and did not seem like a good fit for an 80-HD role. That's not, you don't, when the people are like, best jobs for 80-HD, they never list accountant. But this guy's got all his dopamine from like spreadsheets and making sure they looked really nice and getting like, when there's something didn't add up finding those little, like where was wrong and fixing it. He's like, that really fires up my brain and I can like focus in and really do this because I love working with numbers like this.
Alex Bellitter: It's never on the list. It's never put on the list. There's never like history professor on that list. But there's so many ways to make that creative and that's a special interest for a lot of people. So allowing people to like he said, find where they fit, what feels good for them and like lets them use their natural talents.
William Curb: Yeah. And I think that's, I mean, that's one of the things why coaching is great is because you can kind of work with someone that will help you find that fit.
Alex Bellitter: Yeah, absolutely. So I've mentioned like talents or like strains a couple of times in the past few minutes. Most people don't come to coaching knowing those inherently. I think it's the funniest story.
I don't know if anyone else does too. The first time I was in coaching, it was before I had done coach training and someone asked me what my strengths were. I said, I could type fast.
Like that's the only thing I could think of was like, I'm a pretty fast type. And they're like, let's explore this more. And then I've learned a lot about myself since then, of course. But I think it's daunting to think of like, oh, how am I supposed to use my talents? You don't have to know yet.
That's totally okay. If someone asks you what are your strengths and you feel like a deer and headlights, if I don't have any, you absolutely do. Well, I haven't found them yet.
That's okay. I would recommend seeing a coach because they're really great at finding this. But I also didn't know what my strengths were. And I thought fast typing was all I had to offer the world. Not true.
William Curb: What are the funniest things with ADHD for me is when people ask a direct question, my brain goes blank. And I'm like, I'm sure there are bands I like. I don't know who I listen to.
Alex Bellitter: But I definitely listen to music for sure.
William Curb: It happens. But good tempo.
Alex Bellitter: I do think it's a very daunting question. Like, what are your strengths? I think that one's easy to be like, I don't know. What are your goals? I don't know. But even if you're reflecting, you're like, I'm spending like an hour thinking about my strengths. And I still don't know what that means.
That's okay too. There's tons of different types of strengths. And usually sometimes other people are way better at seeing them than yourself.
So it's never bad. Even you don't necessarily have to have a coach like asking other people what they see in you can be really helpful for you seeing it in yourself too.
William Curb: Yeah. Because one of the things I always see with myself is that things that I view as my strength, I'm like, oh, that's easy. That's not a strength. That's anyone.
Alex Bellitter: You discount it because like, it's so natural for you.
William Curb: It's like, yeah, why would that be a strength? That's just something I do. And I'm like, oh, other people can't do that. And they they're like, yeah, I come to you to help me with these things because you're good at that. And I am not. And it's like, oh, that is a strength then.
Alex Bellitter: Absolutely. And especially like, if you're a little bit nervous about asking other people what your strengths are, it's a vulnerable question. Thinking of those moments of when does someone ask me for help or what conversations do I see coming out with my friends or my family? What do they usually end up asking me about? Even if it's not a explicit ask, those are things that you can see too of like, what are other people valuing in me?
William Curb: Or what do I find easy? And that maybe not everyone else finds easy.
Alex Bellitter: That is the the hidden thing of strengths of when you're really good at something, it's hard to notice other people aren't as good at it. But it's the reason why you ask.
William Curb: All right, well, we're coming up on time here. I was wondering if you had any final thoughts that you wanted to leave the audience with?
Alex Bellitter: I think just the fact you're listening to this podcast, being curious about your own experience, continue that. There are so many great resources, this podcast being one of them. I mentioned Jennifer Kemp, I mentioned the burnout inventory. Get curious about the words that you hear. What does that mean?
Who else is talking about it? I think that's really how you create your own approach to ADHD management, your own philosophy about how do I want to do this? Keep getting exposed to different ideas and you're going to feel more confident in your own journey.
William Curb: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm sure people get a lot out of this and really appreciate it.
Alex Bellitter: It was great to be here. Thank you so much. Hopefully everyone enjoyed and happy ADHD active awareness.
William Curb: Thanks again to Alex for coming on the show and thank you for sticking with us all the way to the end. If you're interested in checking out Schimmer coaching, you can check them out at shimmer.care. But before you go, let's do a quick rundown of today's top tips. One, we often overfill our schedules, not just with work, but with everything. Because when we see blank space, it can look like laziness or wasted time. But leaving unscheduled blocks gives us breathing room and time for the unexpected.
This means it's important that we're making sure to keep at least some white space on our calendars. Two, we can fall in the trap of treating rest like a reward for finishing everything. But rest is part of the system that keeps us going. Taking time to rest isn't laziness, it's maintenance that we sorely need.
Three, external structure such as reminders, alarms, notes and accountability partners can often help ADHD brains thrive. But a lot of us carry shame around using these support tools. We're not cheating the system by building one that works for us.
These scaffoldings allow us to grow stronger over time without collapsing under pressure by giving us the support we need. All right, that's it. Thanks for listening. I'd love to hear what you thought of this episode. Feel free to connect with me over at hackingyouradhd.com/contact.
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