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Welcome to this episode from the
award-Winning Best of the Left Podcast.

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Today is episode 1776 in the year of our
Nation's 250th birthday, just as I planned

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it when I started the show 20 years ago,
and we thought the occasion called for

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something big, so we're tracing the full.

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Arc from the constitutional compromises
that made this country possible to the

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authoritarian vanity projects that those
compromises eventually also made possible.

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We're talking about the history,
the structures, and the insecure.

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Current but temporary president
who thinks a $400 million ballroom

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and a coin with his face on both
sides will make him a Pharaoh.

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For those.

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Looking for a quick overview,
the sources providing our top

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takes in about 55 minutes.

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Today includes 1619, the
political philosophy Podcast,

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radio Atlantic, the bunker.

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Reveal Velshi and Democracy Paradox.

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Then in the additional deeper dives,
half of the show there will be

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more in three sections, section A
Constitution, section B, Trumpland,

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and Section C authoritarian nostalgia.

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But first, a reminder to check
out our new show solved on the

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best of left YouTube channel.

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We're really proud of the show
we're making and think you'll

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get real value out of it.

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Plus you checking it out will help
us find new viewers on YouTube.

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So thanks in advance for all of your
views, likes, subscribes, and comments.

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That's all on the best
of left YouTube channel.

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Linked in the show notes
and now onto the show.

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So you kind of have to
put yourself in the scene.

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It is June of 1776 and Thomas Jefferson
at the very young age of 33 years

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old, has been tasked with drafting
the document that is going to declare

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to the world why the British North
American colonies, the 13 colonies want

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to break off from the British Empire.

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He goes to Philadelphia and rents two
rooms on the edge of town along the river

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and sits down to draft what we all know
now as a Declaration of Independence.

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When in the course of human events,
it becomes necessary for one people

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to dissolve the political bans, which
have connected them with another.

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And to assume among the power.

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So he's sitting at this portable
mahogany writing desk that he carries

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with him and he pulls out some paper
and a very nice quill pen, and he

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starts to write these words that
almost every American can recite by

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heart the Declaration of Independence.

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We hold these truths to be self-evident.

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We, these truths to be self-evident are
created that all men are created equal.

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That all men are created equal.

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They become some of the most famous
words in the English language.

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That they are endowed by their
creator with certain, with

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certain unalienable, right?

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That among these are that
among these are life.

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Life, liberty.

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Liberty and pursuit of happiness and
the pursuit of happiness, life and

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liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

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That's what makes us unique.

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That's what makes us strong.

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The shared values that
we all hold so dear,

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but what most Americans don't know.

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Is that while he's writing these lofty
words for liberation, he had brought

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with him one of the many enslaved
people whom he owned in order to

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serve him and to keep him comfortable.

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Now, that enslaved person was a
teenager, and that teenager was the

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half brother of Thomas Jefferson's wife.

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What that means is Thomas Jefferson's
father-in-law had children with

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one of the women that he enslaved.

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So actually he was Thomas
Jefferson's brother-in-law.

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As he's writing these ideals, he
knows that they will not apply

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even to his own family members.

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At the time that Thomas Jefferson
is drafting the declaration, 150

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years have passed since those first
Africans were sold into Virginia.

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The enslaved population has grown from.

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20 to now 500,000 people fully.

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One fifth of the
population is now enslaved.

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It has grown from a conditional
institution where some of those

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first 20 were able to become
free after a term of time to one

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where black people are born into.

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They die into it and they pass
that status onto their children.

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You now have generations of black people
who have never known a day of freedom

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and who will never know a day of freedom,

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and yet when Thomas
Jefferson's contemporaries.

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Talk in public about why the colonists
need to be free from England.

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They refer to themselves as slaves,
as slaves to the King of England.

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And so the colonists are being criticized
in newspapers for this obvious duplicity

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by those who don't believe that they
should break off from the British empire.

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One of them writes, how is it
that we hear the loudest Yelps for

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freedom from the drivers of Negroes?

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Another writes to Benjamin Franklin.

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And says, perhaps you should
ask the people who are actually

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enslaved what slavery is like.

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Thomas Jefferson, of course, is deeply
aware of the hypocrisy and aware

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of the criticism of the hypocrisy.

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So as he's drafting the declaration,
he includes a passage in there where he

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actually blames the King of England for
introducing slavery into the colonies.

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He calls slavery a crime, and he says that
the King of England committed this crime.

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But that's not our fault.

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It was not our doing.

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This is just one more thing that
the King of England did to wrong us.

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So he brings this document
to the Continental Congress.

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It doesn't take long before
delegates from the Carolinas and from

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Georgia look at that language about
slavery, and one can imagine, they

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said, what the hell are you doing?

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And they say that there's no way that
they're gonna sign this document as long

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as that passage about slavery remains.

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And so it is struck.

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Somehow miraculously, these 13 scrappy
colonies managed to defeat one of

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the most powerful empires in the
world, and we become a new nation.

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And so the colonists gather and they try
to figure out the language that they're

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gonna create in the founding document
that we, of course come to know as the

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Constitution, but now they have a problem.

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They were trying to leave behind
an old country that they believed

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was antithetical to freedom and
create a new one that they believed

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would be defined by freedom.

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This was a country that was going
to be based on individual rights,

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on a government of the people,
for the people, and by the people.

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But this was also a place that at
this time, was still practicing

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the institution of slavery.

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And so the colonists
have a choice to make.

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Are they going to be the
country of their ideals?

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The ideals that they were putting
to paper a country based on the idea

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that all men were created equal.

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And if they were going to be that
country, then they were going to have

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to abolish the institution of slavery,
or were they gonna be wedded to the

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institution of slavery because they
depended so heavily on the wealth

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that was being generated from it.

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And in that case, they
can't really write the.

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That they want to write.

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And so what they do is they decide that
they're going to try to have it both ways,

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and they bake that contradiction right
into the constitution, both codifying and

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protecting the institution of slavery,
but never actually mentioning the word.

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And so they have written what
is perhaps the most radical

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constitution in the world.

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And from the beginning, they
knew they were going to violate

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its most essential principles.

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They called this new country a
democracy, but it wasn't one.

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Not yet.

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And sometimes you say, I
wonder if we'll ever be free.

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We gonna ask the Lord to free
the prayer you're going to sing.

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Wonder shall I ever reach heaven?

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I wonder, shall I fly?

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And they would sing that for about an hour

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way by and by.

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Or I can hear 'em singing
now, but I can't, uh, repeat

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like I could in them days,

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but someday when I'm not
ho I can sing it for you.

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But I'm through hos now.

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Oh, I wish I could s,
I wish I could sing it.

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So an unwritten constitution
means primarily that it's not

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a single identifiable written
document, but it doesn't mean

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that it had nothing written in it.

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That said, even though today, exactly
as you say, Toby, we could consider

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the British Constitution to be an
edge case in contemporary parlance

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of the use of the word Constitution.

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It wasn't an edge case at all.

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It was the archetypal case.

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And so, you know, when Americans
started saying, no, no, A constitution

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is a single written document in the
18th century, that was the innovation.

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And in fact, one of the problems
with looking at us constitutionalism

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narrowly through the lens of it
being a single document is that can

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actually leg lead you to misleading
conclusions about what the Constitution

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really is in the United States.

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'cause it turns out it's
something a lot closer to.

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A comp, comp a complicated combination
of institutions and practices and beliefs

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and values than it is to the single
piece of paper that you could point to.

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So this is a genuine question, um,
in that, like, I'm asking you to fill

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in the blanks of my knowledge, and it
just occurs to me now, but the, the

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way we can think about constitutions
as written or perhaps exclusively

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written documents, and to think about
the American constitution that way.

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Fill in the gaps of my knowledge.

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My understanding is from a historical
process that's a bit anachronistic in

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that that probably wasn't how people
were thinking about it at the time.

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The American Constitution sort of almost
started a trend of formalizing this,

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and even today, the US Constitution is
a lot less formalized than something

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like the French or the German, which
really go into like the ABCs and

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the Provisos and the exemptions.

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Whereas the American constitution will
just save stuff like free speech and

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let you figure out what that means.

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Am I. Did, did do I have that history
right or do you want to complicate

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or challenge that in any way?

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Broadly speaking, I agree with you
that the US Constitution as written was

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not intended to cover in every detail,
every particularity, um, the great

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chief Justice of the United States, John
Marshall, in an opinion in which he gave

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a broad definition of the Constitution.

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Unlike some other famous opinions
where he gave a more narrow definition,

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the same person, but in his broadest
definition, um, in a case called

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McCulloch against Maryland, said that
the Constitution does not speak with

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the proxity of a legal code, by which he
meant that it does not spell out every

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last detail of every last obligation
or requirement, but left room under its

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great headings for interpretation for a
rather broad amount of interpretation.

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Constitutions have varied in terms of the
degree of detail or if you will, proxity

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ever since you have That's a great word.

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It is a great word.

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It is a great word.

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It's a, it's still, it's still technically
an up-to-date word, even though it's

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not prolix doesn't come up a lot in
conversation, but it, it, uh, it could do.

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Um, but yes, you'll have
constitutions today that run to

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hundreds and hundreds of pages.

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Some countries have
very long constitutions.

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Some states or in within federal
entities have very long constitutions,

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and some other constitutions are
relatively more compact regardless.

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Every constitution, even if it's
very detailed, has a body of

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interpretation associated with it.

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Mm. And that body of interpretation.

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Might be very formalized and produced by
a constitutional court or a Supreme Court,

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or it might be even broader than that.

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And include customs and practices of
parliaments, of executive agencies, of

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ministries, uh, administrative actors.

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There are lots of entities that
engage in practices that you could

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call constitutional interpretation,
but that build up a body of defacto

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practice that fills out what I would
call the actually existing constitution.

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Right, right.

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And the other argument, well,
to get onto your book, the other

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feature you really, um, zero in
on with the American Constitution

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is you use the word compromise.

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The Constitution itself does not
just, well, I'll let you go there.

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What does that word mean to you in
the context of the American founding

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as background?

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I would say that all constitutions,
whether written, unwritten,

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or interpreted more broadly.

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Involve compromise because that was,

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that was gonna be a follow up question.

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Sorry.

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Go ahead.

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Well, oh, I'm sorry to over.

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But, but all those constitutions, um,
all those constitutions, are they purport

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to be a common blueprint or framework
for how people will choose to, to live

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together under conditions of governance.

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And to do that, you need agreement
of lots of different people.

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And except in utopian fantasy,
people don't always agree about

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how they wish to be governed.

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So to the extent that they
formalize their agreements, they

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have to come to common conclusions.

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And that involves compromise.

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And I think of compromise in two senses.

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There's compromise in the sense that I
really don't wish to do something, but I

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00:14:37,806 --> 00:14:41,543
do it because without agreeing to it, you
wouldn't agree to participate with me.

232
00:14:42,170 --> 00:14:44,324
And I think of another kind of
compromise, which maybe would be

233
00:14:44,324 --> 00:14:48,688
more properly called cooperation
or co-creation or collaboration.

234
00:14:49,206 --> 00:14:54,579
In which you and I agree on some far end,
let's say we agree that the government

235
00:14:54,579 --> 00:14:55,888
ought to treat everybody equally.

236
00:14:55,915 --> 00:14:55,997
Mm-hmm.

237
00:14:56,434 --> 00:14:59,297
But we know we're not going
to agree in every detail as

238
00:14:59,297 --> 00:15:00,470
to the best way to get there.

239
00:15:01,261 --> 00:15:07,615
And so as a consequence, we might reach
an agreement as between us that could be

240
00:15:07,615 --> 00:15:11,597
called a compromise or a co-creation or
a collaboration where we are committed

241
00:15:11,597 --> 00:15:15,470
to the same value, but we agree to try
it your way first and then to try it my

242
00:15:15,470 --> 00:15:18,606
way second, or to subordinate my way of
doing things to your way of doing things.

243
00:15:18,661 --> 00:15:18,770
Hmm.

244
00:15:19,152 --> 00:15:22,097
So those are of the same family
as classic compromises, but

245
00:15:22,097 --> 00:15:23,270
they're not exactly the same.

246
00:15:23,815 --> 00:15:24,906
They're not exactly the same thing.

247
00:15:25,206 --> 00:15:29,761
The original US Constitution, the
constitution of 1787 was really a

248
00:15:29,761 --> 00:15:36,088
compromise of the first sort because
northern whites and southern whites agreed

249
00:15:36,770 --> 00:15:39,388
to preserve the institution of slavery.

250
00:15:39,388 --> 00:15:40,234
Notwithstanding that.

251
00:15:40,615 --> 00:15:42,934
Many people actually in North
and south, many white people in

252
00:15:42,934 --> 00:15:45,906
North and south understood already
that slavery was morally wrong.

253
00:15:46,534 --> 00:15:46,670
Hmm.

254
00:15:46,670 --> 00:15:52,670
And hoped or fantasized in some cases that
it would somehow magically become extinct.

255
00:15:53,215 --> 00:15:55,861
They had different, you know, crackpot
theories about how that might happen.

256
00:15:55,861 --> 00:15:59,134
None had very concrete theories about how
to get there, but the Southern states made

257
00:15:59,134 --> 00:16:02,243
it really clear that without protections
and guarantees for slavery, they weren't

258
00:16:02,243 --> 00:16:03,715
going to enter into the Constitution.

259
00:16:04,288 --> 00:16:08,406
And so the US Constitution protected
slavery in at least three concrete ways.

260
00:16:08,952 --> 00:16:13,397
It had a guarantee that the international
slave trade, which is different than

261
00:16:13,397 --> 00:16:16,834
holding slaves domestically, and was
much more criticized at the time,

262
00:16:16,834 --> 00:16:20,134
even active slaveholders, many of
them thought that the international

263
00:16:20,134 --> 00:16:21,715
slave trade was particularly inhumane.

264
00:16:22,097 --> 00:16:23,761
That was preserved for 20 years.

265
00:16:25,124 --> 00:16:27,388
There was the famous or
rather infamous three fifths

266
00:16:27,388 --> 00:16:29,843
compromise, which resulted from.

267
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,974
A strange reality, which is that the
southern states, which excluded black

268
00:16:33,974 --> 00:16:39,811
people from voting and which also
enforced slavery, wanted to count

269
00:16:40,002 --> 00:16:44,011
persons of African descent as full
people for purposes of representation

270
00:16:44,202 --> 00:16:46,684
so that they would have more people
representing them in Congress.

271
00:16:47,420 --> 00:16:50,311
The northern states said,
well, that's preposterous.

272
00:16:50,311 --> 00:16:54,865
If you're not going to allow black people
to vote, you certainly shouldn't be able

273
00:16:54,865 --> 00:16:56,147
to count them for purposes of voting.

274
00:16:56,147 --> 00:16:59,638
So black people should count for zero,
anyone un, unless they were free and

275
00:16:59,638 --> 00:17:02,965
able to vote, and the compromise they
reached was that black people would

276
00:17:02,965 --> 00:17:04,411
count for three-fifths of a person.

277
00:17:04,411 --> 00:17:07,956
So today we think of it as immoral because
of the symbolic quality of saying that

278
00:17:07,956 --> 00:17:09,265
anybody is less than a full person.

279
00:17:09,593 --> 00:17:11,693
But as it turns out, it was the
pro-slavery people who wanted to

280
00:17:11,693 --> 00:17:15,043
count blacks and the anti-slavery
people who didn't want to count them.

281
00:17:16,152 --> 00:17:18,443
Because it was never a question
of allowing black people to

282
00:17:18,443 --> 00:17:19,561
vote in that, in that debate.

283
00:17:20,188 --> 00:17:23,734
And then the third compromise, which is
in many ways the most devastating, was

284
00:17:23,734 --> 00:17:25,397
the so-called fugitive slave clause.

285
00:17:25,806 --> 00:17:29,488
And that was a clause of the Constitution
that said that if an enslaved person

286
00:17:29,488 --> 00:17:34,452
should escape and flee to a state
where slavery did not exist, that that

287
00:17:34,452 --> 00:17:39,006
person not only would not become free,
but that the, um, that the state to

288
00:17:39,006 --> 00:17:42,661
which they fled would cooperate in
the process of recapturing them and

289
00:17:42,661 --> 00:17:44,324
returning them to a state of slavery.

290
00:17:44,734 --> 00:17:48,034
And bad as that sounds, and it sounds
very bad, it was even worse than it

291
00:17:48,034 --> 00:17:54,170
sounds because in 1772 in, uh, a common
law case, a court of King's bench case

292
00:17:54,170 --> 00:17:58,915
called Somerset Case, Somerset's case,
Lord Mansfield, had ruled in the case of

293
00:17:58,915 --> 00:18:04,643
a Jamaican enslaved person who had been
brought to England, that the person was

294
00:18:04,643 --> 00:18:09,361
no longer a slave by virtue of being in
England because there was no positive law.

295
00:18:09,715 --> 00:18:14,188
Applicable in England to create
slavery as opposed to in the colonies.

296
00:18:14,788 --> 00:18:19,179
And because of that holding, it was
conceivable to imagine that an enslaved

297
00:18:19,179 --> 00:18:21,988
person who escaped to a place where there
was no slavery would just become free.

298
00:18:22,370 --> 00:18:26,243
And the fugitive slave clause, among
other things, denied that as a legal

299
00:18:26,243 --> 00:18:31,124
reality and required forced the northern
states who agreed to it, which is all of

300
00:18:31,124 --> 00:18:36,034
them, to acquiesce in the continuation
of slavery, as it were in their own

301
00:18:36,034 --> 00:18:40,261
courts, and pursuant into their own
rules, even if they themselves thought

302
00:18:40,261 --> 00:18:42,579
that slavery was wrong and should not
be sanctioned within their states.

303
00:18:45,088 --> 00:18:48,170
So just to close the thought,
yeah, all of that amounted to

304
00:18:48,743 --> 00:18:50,024
a compromise of a bad sort.

305
00:18:50,079 --> 00:18:54,443
A kind that was based on the preservation
of a practice that not only was immoral,

306
00:18:54,743 --> 00:18:58,997
but was understood by many, not all of
the participants in it to be immoral.

307
00:18:59,597 --> 00:19:02,461
And yet without that, there
wouldn't have been a constitutional.

308
00:19:03,143 --> 00:19:03,743
Agreement.

309
00:19:03,961 --> 00:19:06,252
And so in that sense, the US
Constitution was a compromised

310
00:19:06,252 --> 00:19:08,270
constitution, the Constitution of 1787.

311
00:19:08,697 --> 00:19:12,987
So Clint, as someone who has studied the
presentation of history and specifically

312
00:19:13,047 --> 00:19:17,307
Black history, how would you characterize
this administration's approach?

313
00:19:18,477 --> 00:19:19,407
Antagonistic.

314
00:19:19,677 --> 00:19:23,547
Um, I think we are witnessing
an administration working with

315
00:19:23,547 --> 00:19:26,127
an unsettling intensity to.

316
00:19:26,737 --> 00:19:32,827
Attempts to distort, erase, manipulate
the history of this country, and

317
00:19:32,827 --> 00:19:38,437
within that manipulate the history
of Black Americans role contributions

318
00:19:38,797 --> 00:19:41,767
and, and experiences in America.

319
00:19:41,767 --> 00:19:45,517
And, and what I mean by that is I think,
you know, let's take slavery for example.

320
00:19:45,637 --> 00:19:48,907
The president of the United States
said that the Smithsonian Museum,

321
00:19:48,907 --> 00:19:52,177
for example, spends too much time
talking about how bad slavery was.

322
00:19:52,837 --> 00:19:56,707
For me, my sense of things is that
it is, it is not the case that this

323
00:19:56,707 --> 00:20:01,687
administration believes slavery
didn't happen or, or not even that

324
00:20:01,687 --> 00:20:03,322
they believe that slavery wasn't bad.

325
00:20:04,117 --> 00:20:06,517
I think they understand that it was bad.

326
00:20:06,547 --> 00:20:11,077
But what happens is if you talk
honestly about the horror and the

327
00:20:11,077 --> 00:20:16,387
brutality and the the cruelty of what
slavery was, you then have to talk

328
00:20:16,387 --> 00:20:20,707
about how the residue of that system
continues to inform the contemporary

329
00:20:20,707 --> 00:20:22,087
landscape of inequality today.

330
00:20:22,507 --> 00:20:27,307
And I think it would fundamentally
reorient people's relationship to not

331
00:20:27,307 --> 00:20:31,357
only the history of this country, but
the contemporary reality of this country.

332
00:20:31,357 --> 00:20:32,477
And that's something that I think that.

333
00:20:33,157 --> 00:20:36,337
So many folks in this administration
want to avoid because they want to

334
00:20:36,337 --> 00:20:41,077
be able to tell themselves that the
America, that they believe to be

335
00:20:41,077 --> 00:20:46,897
true, the America that that exists
today is one that that is the result

336
00:20:46,897 --> 00:20:51,697
singularly of, of people's hard work
or deservingness when there's, there's

337
00:20:51,697 --> 00:20:53,377
obviously another story to be told there.

338
00:20:53,647 --> 00:20:55,267
And what is that desire about?

339
00:20:55,267 --> 00:20:58,867
Because Adam Trump talks about
wanting monuments to be uplifting,

340
00:20:59,077 --> 00:21:01,267
not to cause people shame.

341
00:21:02,062 --> 00:21:02,782
What does that mean?

342
00:21:02,902 --> 00:21:04,402
Yeah, I think so.

343
00:21:04,402 --> 00:21:07,012
When you think about the
idea of, of uplifting, right?

344
00:21:07,012 --> 00:21:12,022
It's sort of this notion of
celebrating the positives of

345
00:21:12,022 --> 00:21:13,912
someone's character, right?

346
00:21:13,942 --> 00:21:19,582
Um, so as to say George Washington
was the founder of the nation and,

347
00:21:19,642 --> 00:21:23,572
um, you know, led the revolution was
one of the greatest men of his time.

348
00:21:23,572 --> 00:21:27,442
And if you do that and you
sort of say this clean history

349
00:21:27,442 --> 00:21:29,182
of George Washington without.

350
00:21:29,502 --> 00:21:31,302
The additional stories, right?

351
00:21:31,302 --> 00:21:36,042
The fact that George Washington
rotated his enslaved workers from um,

352
00:21:36,072 --> 00:21:39,732
Philadelphia to Mount Vernon in Virginia,
so that they would not earn their

353
00:21:39,732 --> 00:21:42,222
liberty under Pennsylvania law, right?

354
00:21:42,222 --> 00:21:44,652
Because after six months you
started to get your freedom.

355
00:21:44,652 --> 00:21:50,022
And so if you start to add that
complicating narrative, it doesn't paint

356
00:21:50,022 --> 00:21:52,722
this sort of clean image of our leaders.

357
00:21:53,502 --> 00:21:55,122
And that just feels bad.

358
00:21:55,122 --> 00:21:56,052
Like what's the,

359
00:21:56,052 --> 00:21:58,572
so there there are a couple of
things that that, that does, right?

360
00:21:58,572 --> 00:22:01,992
When you start to question one of
the decisions, it also makes you

361
00:22:01,992 --> 00:22:03,342
question the other things, right?

362
00:22:03,342 --> 00:22:05,982
If you start to say, well, this
person that we've painted as

363
00:22:05,982 --> 00:22:11,652
someone who did an unqualified
good did also unqualified bads.

364
00:22:11,802 --> 00:22:14,022
And I think the other part of
this too is that if you have to

365
00:22:14,022 --> 00:22:16,242
tell a new story about Washington.

366
00:22:16,407 --> 00:22:19,107
And you begin to tell a new story
about Jefferson that includes the

367
00:22:19,107 --> 00:22:22,827
sort of unsavory, so to speak, parts
of their legacy, uh, which is to say

368
00:22:22,827 --> 00:22:24,747
the more honest parts of their legacy.

369
00:22:25,557 --> 00:22:27,537
If you have to tell a new story
about these men, it also means you

370
00:22:27,537 --> 00:22:28,557
have to tell a new story about.

371
00:22:28,912 --> 00:22:29,782
America's founding.

372
00:22:29,812 --> 00:22:32,242
If you have to tell a new story about
America's founding, it means you have

373
00:22:32,242 --> 00:22:34,192
to tell a new story about this country.

374
00:22:34,192 --> 00:22:36,892
And if for many Americans, if you
have to tell a new story about

375
00:22:36,892 --> 00:22:39,502
America, it means you have to
tell a new story about yourself.

376
00:22:39,682 --> 00:22:39,952
Exactly.

377
00:22:39,952 --> 00:22:44,752
And that tap into something that is like
existential, that serves as a catalyst

378
00:22:44,752 --> 00:22:46,822
to like a fundamental crisis of identity.

379
00:22:46,822 --> 00:22:50,332
Because who people believe they are is.

380
00:22:50,857 --> 00:22:56,047
Consciously and, and subconsciously
tied to a story of America that

381
00:22:56,047 --> 00:22:59,317
they have been told over the course
of generations, through school,

382
00:22:59,317 --> 00:23:00,727
through family, through community.

383
00:23:00,997 --> 00:23:03,432
And when you untether them, uh, from that.

384
00:23:04,162 --> 00:23:07,012
Notion of reality that
they've come to believe.

385
00:23:07,342 --> 00:23:09,562
Um, it's incredibly jarring.

386
00:23:09,682 --> 00:23:11,602
Yeah, I can see it's disorienting.

387
00:23:11,602 --> 00:23:14,752
I feel like we need to ground this
conversation in a few examples.

388
00:23:14,932 --> 00:23:18,292
You started by using the word
intensity of the things that the

389
00:23:18,292 --> 00:23:19,672
Trump administration has done.

390
00:23:19,672 --> 00:23:23,572
Which one has stuck out to you or
which just give us a few examples.

391
00:23:23,872 --> 00:23:25,342
Yeah, there are a handful, right?

392
00:23:25,342 --> 00:23:27,262
It's the renaming of.

393
00:23:27,702 --> 00:23:30,312
Confederate Memorials
and Confederate Monument.

394
00:23:30,312 --> 00:23:34,722
It is the, the US Naval Academy
removing books from their library.

395
00:23:34,722 --> 00:23:39,042
It's the, uh, air Force stripping back
the teaching of the Tuskegee Airmen.

396
00:23:39,342 --> 00:23:41,892
And actually, one of the things
that Clint was saying about

397
00:23:41,892 --> 00:23:42,432
people having to reassess.

398
00:23:43,257 --> 00:23:45,117
Their own legacies.

399
00:23:45,117 --> 00:23:45,357
Right.

400
00:23:45,447 --> 00:23:48,567
Um, I remember we had a conversation
about his book where he saying, you know,

401
00:23:48,567 --> 00:23:52,707
if you ha are having to ask questions
about the ways that your grandparents,

402
00:23:52,917 --> 00:23:57,117
right, the people who took you fishing
and the people who, um, you know, you sat

403
00:23:57,117 --> 00:23:59,907
on their laps and, and they read books
to you and you were younger and you have

404
00:23:59,907 --> 00:24:01,347
all of these great memories of them.

405
00:24:01,617 --> 00:24:05,307
If you have to reassess how they got to
do the things that they got to do, then

406
00:24:05,307 --> 00:24:09,597
it really does like jar you and, and,
and makes you fundamentally reassess your

407
00:24:09,597 --> 00:24:11,967
own, um, sort of standing in the world.

408
00:24:11,967 --> 00:24:12,447
And so.

409
00:24:13,102 --> 00:24:17,962
This sort of broader project of saying,
well, if we pair back some of the things

410
00:24:17,962 --> 00:24:21,652
that the Tuskegee Airmen had to do
to become the Tuskegee airmen, right.

411
00:24:21,682 --> 00:24:25,012
Um, black History Month sort of
calls us to remember that these,

412
00:24:25,192 --> 00:24:26,752
these great people did great things.

413
00:24:26,752 --> 00:24:29,992
But the question is like, why did
they have to do those great things?

414
00:24:29,992 --> 00:24:32,632
Why did Jackie Robinson
have to integrate baseball?

415
00:24:32,632 --> 00:24:36,562
Why did Martin Luther King have to deliver
his speech at the March on Washington?

416
00:24:36,562 --> 00:24:36,742
Right?

417
00:24:36,742 --> 00:24:38,427
It is because the nation.

418
00:24:38,802 --> 00:24:41,502
Did not have this clean story of progress.

419
00:24:41,802 --> 00:24:45,072
Clint, I'm curious to put
this in some kind of context.

420
00:24:45,072 --> 00:24:48,192
What the Trump administration is
doing now, which you described as

421
00:24:48,192 --> 00:24:52,542
having a certain degree of intensity
versus previous eras in American

422
00:24:52,542 --> 00:24:56,052
history versus Trump won, because
there's always a push and pull.

423
00:24:56,052 --> 00:25:00,072
I mean, I imagine countries rarely
do just clean memorialization

424
00:25:00,072 --> 00:25:01,367
of their sins, you know?

425
00:25:01,397 --> 00:25:01,687
Yeah.

426
00:25:02,307 --> 00:25:04,302
You know what's interesting is that.

427
00:25:06,727 --> 00:25:11,377
This is the pushback against
Black progress, black history.

428
00:25:11,707 --> 00:25:13,807
That in and of itself is not new.

429
00:25:13,807 --> 00:25:17,767
What, what scholars of Black history
and historians talk about all the time

430
00:25:17,767 --> 00:25:20,182
is that in moments in which there are.

431
00:25:20,812 --> 00:25:25,282
Periods of black, social, political,
and economic progress, there is

432
00:25:25,282 --> 00:25:27,262
often pushback to that progress.

433
00:25:27,262 --> 00:25:30,052
So after the Civil War and after
reconstruction, there was obviously

434
00:25:30,352 --> 00:25:34,612
an intense sort of pushback to the
progress that was made following the

435
00:25:34,612 --> 00:25:35,932
Civil War through reconstruction.

436
00:25:36,202 --> 00:25:39,682
Uh, then after the Civil Rights
Movement, there was an intense pushback.

437
00:25:39,952 --> 00:25:45,352
And what we're seeing now is a pushback
to much of the era, both of Barack

438
00:25:45,352 --> 00:25:47,932
Obama's presidency, but then later
the Black Lives Matter movement.

439
00:25:48,127 --> 00:25:50,917
Which sort of intensified following
the murder of George Floyd.

440
00:25:51,937 --> 00:25:56,437
But it is important to note that even
while we are experiencing the echoes

441
00:25:56,557 --> 00:26:01,117
of this history and we're experiencing
this sort of nature of the sort of

442
00:26:01,177 --> 00:26:06,787
cyclical elements that are there,
this also is of a pretty unique

443
00:26:07,057 --> 00:26:10,417
iteration of it in the way that it is.

444
00:26:11,122 --> 00:26:13,972
Like state sanctioned, like in the,
in the context of the civil rights

445
00:26:13,972 --> 00:26:17,422
movement, there was intense pushback, or
even during the Civil rights movement.

446
00:26:17,422 --> 00:26:17,572
Right?

447
00:26:17,632 --> 00:26:21,052
So much of the pushback, you know, it
would come from states and it would

448
00:26:21,052 --> 00:26:26,602
come from extra judicial forces, but
it was, you know what the civil rights

449
00:26:26,602 --> 00:26:30,622
leaders were appealing to was the federal
government to come and protect them.

450
00:26:30,712 --> 00:26:32,392
Oh, that is so important.

451
00:26:32,392 --> 00:26:32,992
I get that.

452
00:26:32,992 --> 00:26:35,422
So what you're saying is mostly
the pushback is cultural.

453
00:26:35,632 --> 00:26:36,472
Like it's cultural.

454
00:26:36,472 --> 00:26:38,242
It comes from state
governments, but this is.

455
00:26:38,847 --> 00:26:40,227
Completely top down

456
00:26:40,377 --> 00:26:40,977
oftentimes.

457
00:26:40,977 --> 00:26:41,127
Yeah.

458
00:26:41,132 --> 00:26:47,007
I, I don't think that we have seen a level
of antagonism from the federal government.

459
00:26:47,007 --> 00:26:51,147
Mm. Um, who historically, you know, the
federal government or the Supreme Court

460
00:26:51,147 --> 00:26:52,012
in the context of the Waring Court.

461
00:26:52,642 --> 00:26:58,582
Have been the thing that allowed black
folks to have some sort of support

462
00:26:58,612 --> 00:27:03,682
outside of the context of their specific
geographic and political reality in, in a

463
00:27:03,682 --> 00:27:05,302
certain state or in a certain community.

464
00:27:05,542 --> 00:27:07,492
And that now is gone.

465
00:27:07,822 --> 00:27:08,427
Uh, there is no.

466
00:27:09,247 --> 00:27:12,397
Federal government to appeal
to, um, in fact, the federal

467
00:27:12,397 --> 00:27:14,047
government is the antagonist

468
00:27:15,275 --> 00:27:18,139
The United States of America
marks its 250th birthday on

469
00:27:18,139 --> 00:27:19,366
the 4th of July this year.

470
00:27:19,966 --> 00:27:22,748
If like me, you are old enough
to remember the bicentennial back

471
00:27:22,748 --> 00:27:26,348
in 1976, you might recall a year
of largely innocent celebration.

472
00:27:26,784 --> 00:27:28,094
Commemorative stamps and coins.

473
00:27:28,094 --> 00:27:30,603
Lots of Revolutionary War
dress ups in local parades.

474
00:27:30,821 --> 00:27:35,048
A fleet of tall ships visiting east coast
ports and a state visit from our queen.

475
00:27:35,539 --> 00:27:39,084
50 years later, though it is the
worst look imaginable, that the semi

476
00:27:39,084 --> 00:27:42,766
quincentennial falls under the reign
of the most authoritarian president in

477
00:27:42,766 --> 00:27:46,884
America's history, a man bents on remaking
the idea of what it means to be American

478
00:27:47,130 --> 00:27:51,412
along divisive nationalist lines, and who
also has a taste to a Gordy spectacle.

479
00:27:51,930 --> 00:27:54,903
Already, the celebrations
are looking pretty partisan.

480
00:27:55,257 --> 00:27:58,257
There will be a Patriot Games
athletic event featuring one

481
00:27:58,257 --> 00:28:01,230
male and one female high school
athlete representing each US state.

482
00:28:01,612 --> 00:28:02,730
Everybody admittedly dubbed it.

483
00:28:02,730 --> 00:28:05,375
The Hunger Games counter
to the recommendations of

484
00:28:05,375 --> 00:28:06,903
two advisory committees.

485
00:28:07,084 --> 00:28:09,212
Three designs for a new
commemorative quarter.

486
00:28:09,321 --> 00:28:13,330
Coin will not Mark Black abolition,
women's suffrage or civil

487
00:28:13,330 --> 00:28:16,657
rights, but instead the Mayflower
Compact, the Revolutionary War,

488
00:28:16,821 --> 00:28:17,994
and the Gettysburg Address.

489
00:28:18,457 --> 00:28:22,821
There will be a heavily read America
slanted $34 million Garden of American

490
00:28:22,821 --> 00:28:26,039
Heroes featuring Neil Armstrong,
Davey Crockett, and George Washington,

491
00:28:26,307 --> 00:28:28,034
but also weirdly Alfred Hitchcock.

492
00:28:28,353 --> 00:28:32,307
Jeopardy host Alex Trebek and both
Lauren Baco and Humphrey Bogart.

493
00:28:32,634 --> 00:28:35,062
And it's been stipulated that the
sculptures should be lifelike and

494
00:28:35,062 --> 00:28:37,298
realistic, not abstract or modernist.

495
00:28:37,871 --> 00:28:41,389
And meanwhile, one planning
organization set up by Trump called

496
00:28:41,389 --> 00:28:44,962
Freedom two 50 is charging a million
dollars ahead for access to the

497
00:28:44,962 --> 00:28:46,462
President during the celebrations.

498
00:28:47,025 --> 00:28:50,025
And if all that is not enough for you,
there will be an indie car race through

499
00:28:50,025 --> 00:28:53,353
Washington and an ultimate fighting
championship match on the White House

500
00:28:53,353 --> 00:28:57,853
lawn to coincide with the president's
80th birthday are Trump and his

501
00:28:57,853 --> 00:29:02,625
accolades trying to use America's 250th
birthday to engrave the Margo world.

502
00:29:03,094 --> 00:29:06,503
Into America's national identity
and will Americans stand for it?

503
00:29:06,994 --> 00:29:09,148
Here to talk it over with
me is Mike Bedenbaugh.

504
00:29:09,175 --> 00:29:12,694
He's a political commentator, a historic
preservationist who's helped save many of

505
00:29:12,694 --> 00:29:16,784
South Carolina's historical landmarks, a
US Navy veteran, and the author of the new

506
00:29:16,784 --> 00:29:20,685
book Reviving Our Republic, which gives
pointers on how to get the US government

507
00:29:20,712 --> 00:29:22,130
working for the US people again.

508
00:29:22,294 --> 00:29:22,730
Hello, Mike.

509
00:29:22,784 --> 00:29:23,903
Thanks so much for joining us.

510
00:29:24,148 --> 00:29:24,557
Uh, Andrew.

511
00:29:24,557 --> 00:29:25,321
Thanks for having me.

512
00:29:25,321 --> 00:29:26,057
It's great to be here.

513
00:29:26,330 --> 00:29:26,821
How are you?

514
00:29:26,821 --> 00:29:27,530
And where are you?

515
00:29:28,044 --> 00:29:32,980
Well, I am in my home studio in a little
town called Prosperity South Carolina.

516
00:29:33,171 --> 00:29:33,307
Mm-hmm.

517
00:29:33,634 --> 00:29:37,753
But where I am is in a state of
disbelief because a lot of those things

518
00:29:37,753 --> 00:29:39,580
you read off I have not even heard.

519
00:29:40,125 --> 00:29:40,398
Yeah.

520
00:29:40,398 --> 00:29:41,735
They are quite jaw dropping, aren't they?

521
00:29:42,062 --> 00:29:44,407
It's jaw dropping, but not surprising.

522
00:29:44,844 --> 00:29:45,253
Right.

523
00:29:45,444 --> 00:29:46,971
Well, I mean, you and
I are of similar ages.

524
00:29:46,971 --> 00:29:48,362
What, what, let's go
back to the bicentennial.

525
00:29:48,362 --> 00:29:49,698
What are your memories
of the bicentennial?

526
00:29:50,144 --> 00:29:53,880
Oh, my memories of the bicentennial
was our parade that, uh, my aunt

527
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:55,680
helped organize in prosperity.

528
00:29:56,034 --> 00:30:00,398
Our town was originally called frog level,
so I was the guy dressed up as the frog

529
00:30:00,753 --> 00:30:04,598
walking around down the street trying to
keep myself from stepping in the horse

530
00:30:04,598 --> 00:30:06,262
manure from the horses in front of me.

531
00:30:06,862 --> 00:30:08,389
You don't get much more
real America than that.

532
00:30:08,689 --> 00:30:09,398
Oh, it was awesome.

533
00:30:09,998 --> 00:30:12,671
And it, you know, everybody dressed up.

534
00:30:13,153 --> 00:30:17,625
And it was a joyous occasion of
remembering who we were, and it

535
00:30:17,625 --> 00:30:20,298
was, especially at a time when
America was still healing from the

536
00:30:20,298 --> 00:30:26,462
blowback of Vietnam, Richard Nixon,
all of these things that started

537
00:30:26,653 --> 00:30:29,107
to disrupt American civil life.

538
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,616
Got batted back down and we
celebrated and we remembered

539
00:30:33,616 --> 00:30:35,089
who we were there for a while.

540
00:30:35,171 --> 00:30:36,371
Yeah, these were not healthy in times.

541
00:30:36,371 --> 00:30:37,544
The economy was pretty dreadful.

542
00:30:37,544 --> 00:30:38,771
The oil shock was still reverberating.

543
00:30:38,771 --> 00:30:42,425
And as you say, they not two twin
national humiliations within a few years.

544
00:30:42,425 --> 00:30:43,898
Vietnam and, and Nixon did.

545
00:30:43,898 --> 00:30:46,053
America kind of really, you,
you kind of alluded to it there.

546
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,575
It sort of needs to be reintroduced
to what it was all about.

547
00:30:48,930 --> 00:30:52,039
I wanna ask you about the overall
message now of the semi quincentennial.

548
00:30:52,148 --> 00:30:55,530
It, it arrives as we've discussed,
an exceptionally troubled time.

549
00:30:55,803 --> 00:30:58,421
America more divided than I
think anybody can remember.

550
00:30:58,421 --> 00:31:00,985
You know, certainly, you know, you
have to go back to the Civil War to

551
00:31:00,985 --> 00:31:04,121
see degrees of division like there
is now, and the vision that's been.

552
00:31:04,212 --> 00:31:07,021
Put together is very much a
traditional white America, red

553
00:31:07,021 --> 00:31:09,966
America vision, military parades,
high school games, women, African

554
00:31:09,966 --> 00:31:11,276
Americans, not on the coinage.

555
00:31:11,412 --> 00:31:12,939
How do you feel about this messaging?

556
00:31:13,676 --> 00:31:15,776
It's patriotism on a protein drink.

557
00:31:15,776 --> 00:31:20,766
I mean, it's absolutely absurd and
anybody that saw our State of the

558
00:31:20,766 --> 00:31:24,939
Union address, whatever that was,
I call it the state of Disunion.

559
00:31:25,266 --> 00:31:28,866
It was the most horrendous speech
American president has ever given

560
00:31:29,112 --> 00:31:30,694
in the halls of our congress.

561
00:31:31,026 --> 00:31:31,762
In our history.

562
00:31:32,157 --> 00:31:35,798
History and we, we we're gonna have
a karmic price to pay for this.

563
00:31:36,289 --> 00:31:40,053
Do you think that the semi coincidence
program, do you think it's being

564
00:31:40,053 --> 00:31:43,244
designed to be divisive, to say
this is what America really is, and

565
00:31:43,244 --> 00:31:45,753
if you are not on board with this,
you are not really an American?

566
00:31:46,053 --> 00:31:46,676
Oh, absolutely.

567
00:31:47,344 --> 00:31:50,507
Absolutely this part of the things
I talk about in my book, reviving

568
00:31:50,507 --> 00:31:53,889
Our Republic, is one of the things
Washington desperately warned us about

569
00:31:53,889 --> 00:31:58,089
in his farewell address as he left
office was that partisan politics will

570
00:31:58,089 --> 00:32:02,426
destroy us, and we have to mitigate
the damages of that and focus where

571
00:32:02,426 --> 00:32:06,953
patriotism needs to be and not on the
thoughts patriotism that parties elevate.

572
00:32:07,335 --> 00:32:09,489
And Donald Trump is just.

573
00:32:09,944 --> 00:32:13,380
Basically taken advantage of the
erosion of norms over the past

574
00:32:13,380 --> 00:32:15,971
50 years and gone all in on them.

575
00:32:16,435 --> 00:32:19,953
Well, I mean, from this side of the
Atlantic, the fear is not just that Trump

576
00:32:19,953 --> 00:32:24,480
will turn this into a, a kind of Trumpy
event with his, his emphasis elevating

577
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,726
the things that he loves, the Gordy
spectacle, but that it will somehow be.

578
00:32:29,348 --> 00:32:33,603
Engraved installed as the American default
to the extent that it will outlast him.

579
00:32:33,603 --> 00:32:36,766
I mean, there are more freakish figures
on the fringes calling for his face

580
00:32:36,766 --> 00:32:39,821
to go on Mount Rushmore, but that idea
that something will be impressed upon

581
00:32:39,821 --> 00:32:43,776
America here that cannot be a faced
seems very, very real and very worrying.

582
00:32:44,203 --> 00:32:46,166
It's very real and
should be very worrying.

583
00:32:46,657 --> 00:32:53,394
What has happened is Trumpism has allowed
the coagulation of an authoritarian

584
00:32:53,394 --> 00:32:56,721
tendency that has always been in
America, but it's been marginalized.

585
00:32:56,966 --> 00:32:59,912
I grew up in a Jim Crow South
where segregation was real.

586
00:33:00,180 --> 00:33:04,571
And so I saw that authoritarian tendency
on the ground there to make sure

587
00:33:04,571 --> 00:33:06,453
certain people were marginalized out.

588
00:33:06,671 --> 00:33:11,716
We have that in our DNA from our
founding, and in spite of that, the

589
00:33:11,716 --> 00:33:15,726
constitution has given away of having
a rule of law that gave more equity.

590
00:33:15,726 --> 00:33:18,616
Now, it wasn't done perfectly at
first, and it had to be developed,

591
00:33:18,616 --> 00:33:22,844
and some things couldn't be
corrected until in hindsight, but.

592
00:33:23,607 --> 00:33:28,080
What is happening now is a real shift
in a power base that is not going

593
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,335
to go away, and we're looking at a
generational turn to make this right.

594
00:33:32,335 --> 00:33:35,607
Listeners to this podcast have
heard me say this 101 times,

595
00:33:35,716 --> 00:33:36,780
um, because it's my thing.

596
00:33:37,026 --> 00:33:42,453
But I just believe that America
is a pendulum, that it swings hard

597
00:33:42,453 --> 00:33:46,135
one way and then it comes right
back and, and swings the other way.

598
00:33:46,244 --> 00:33:50,280
Um, which means that like, you know, in
the long term, I don't think America,

599
00:33:50,826 --> 00:33:53,171
Amer America sees progress in inches.

600
00:33:53,694 --> 00:33:56,721
But the swings are where,
you know, you can see exactly

601
00:33:56,721 --> 00:33:57,839
where the country is right now.

602
00:33:57,894 --> 00:34:02,857
And so I think if we look at what
happened after George Floyd died, uh,

603
00:34:02,857 --> 00:34:04,576
that was a hard swing the other way.

604
00:34:04,903 --> 00:34:09,935
Um, I'm curious if what we see
right now coming from, uh, the Trump

605
00:34:10,085 --> 00:34:12,130
administration and not just like.

606
00:34:12,653 --> 00:34:16,989
In military, he's, you know, uh,
reverting the names or changing the names

607
00:34:16,989 --> 00:34:21,598
of military bases back to, uh, people
whose names have been taken off these

608
00:34:21,598 --> 00:34:23,535
military bases, all of that type of stuff.

609
00:34:23,698 --> 00:34:30,026
But also, uh, he's planning to
put an Arc de Trump, um, in dc uh.

610
00:34:30,648 --> 00:34:32,666
East Wing Ballroom, all of that stuff.

611
00:34:32,666 --> 00:34:37,357
Do you feel like that is the, the
opposite swing of, um, of what we

612
00:34:37,357 --> 00:34:39,539
saw during George Floyd's, uh, death?

613
00:34:40,221 --> 00:34:40,657
Oh yeah.

614
00:34:40,657 --> 00:34:44,776
And even literally, uh, recently the
Trump administration said that they were

615
00:34:44,776 --> 00:34:46,930
going to reverse removal of statues.

616
00:34:47,203 --> 00:34:52,303
So they re-erected, uh, Confederate
General statute in DC and they've

617
00:34:52,303 --> 00:34:55,576
said that they're going to put up
the Arlington Confederate Monument.

618
00:34:56,303 --> 00:34:59,439
Which would cost millions and millions
and millions of dollars to put up.

619
00:34:59,439 --> 00:35:01,539
So we will see if that actually happens.

620
00:35:01,621 --> 00:35:07,076
Um, but it just declaring that you're
gonna do it is enough of, uh, propaganda

621
00:35:07,076 --> 00:35:09,503
victory, I think in this search situation.

622
00:35:09,557 --> 00:35:09,803
Right.

623
00:35:10,021 --> 00:35:13,976
It might seem silly or not
worthy of attention to look into.

624
00:35:14,362 --> 00:35:18,344
The Trump administration's aesthetic
decisions, all of the golds,

625
00:35:18,426 --> 00:35:23,007
ornamentations, smeared all over
the, all of Oval office and ballrooms

626
00:35:23,007 --> 00:35:25,353
and uh, arc triumphs and et cetera.

627
00:35:25,353 --> 00:35:30,862
But the aesthetic is a
way to make the political.

628
00:35:31,871 --> 00:35:33,153
Physically present.

629
00:35:33,153 --> 00:35:36,044
It's a way to rally people's energies.

630
00:35:36,344 --> 00:35:41,444
It's a way to make it seem like things
are changing and like Trump is keeping

631
00:35:41,444 --> 00:35:43,571
his promises when he's actually not.

632
00:35:44,062 --> 00:35:45,262
I think he hasn't really.

633
00:35:45,994 --> 00:35:50,166
Changed Washington in the way that
he's told his base's going to change.

634
00:35:50,221 --> 00:35:55,539
The, the elite are still in control
of, of political power and wealth,

635
00:35:55,866 --> 00:36:01,157
but he is literally changing the White
House by tearing part of it down.

636
00:36:01,157 --> 00:36:07,676
And you can channel people's attention
into rooting for that type of change,

637
00:36:07,757 --> 00:36:10,894
uh, instead of actual change and.

638
00:36:11,471 --> 00:36:19,680
The style choices that he's making
are very congruent with his political

639
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:26,826
message, in that he's appealing to a
vision of the past, which is greater

640
00:36:27,098 --> 00:36:32,798
than the present, but in both his
political message and his aesthetic style.

641
00:36:32,798 --> 00:36:33,180
This.

642
00:36:33,776 --> 00:36:35,848
Vision of the past is not,
you can't pinpoint it.

643
00:36:35,848 --> 00:36:37,130
It's not an actual time.

644
00:36:37,130 --> 00:36:38,439
It's a fuzzy hand wavy.

645
00:36:39,657 --> 00:36:43,612
Things were prettier and nicer then,
uh, and so you can't ever, you can't

646
00:36:43,612 --> 00:36:45,139
fact check that type of vision.

647
00:36:45,139 --> 00:36:47,757
You can't see if we've
actually gotten closer to it.

648
00:36:47,785 --> 00:36:53,757
And so putting up a gilded tchotchke,
uh, counts as progress towards that.

649
00:36:54,085 --> 00:36:56,266
And he can claim the credit,
which he's happy to do.

650
00:36:57,116 --> 00:37:01,889
Yeah, and I, I think that's intentional
because if you can't land on the

651
00:37:01,889 --> 00:37:05,816
specific time period, you can't be held
accountable for how that time period

652
00:37:05,816 --> 00:37:09,989
played out for the disenfranchised or for
the, the powerful at that time period.

653
00:37:09,994 --> 00:37:10,726
Right, right.

654
00:37:10,726 --> 00:37:11,162
Exactly.

655
00:37:11,162 --> 00:37:14,244
You know, appealing to
making, uh, uh, your.

656
00:37:14,335 --> 00:37:16,026
The White House looked like Versailles.

657
00:37:16,053 --> 00:37:19,026
We all know what happened to the
French Kings, but apparently we're

658
00:37:19,026 --> 00:37:20,635
not, uh, paying much attention.

659
00:37:21,016 --> 00:37:25,544
Uh, and there's, there's another
current rights, um, tendency to

660
00:37:25,544 --> 00:37:28,162
appeal to the glory of Caesar.

661
00:37:28,380 --> 00:37:30,289
Everybody wants to be like Julius Caesar.

662
00:37:30,289 --> 00:37:34,571
When is, that's really not a good life
choice if you wanna end up like him.

663
00:37:35,307 --> 00:37:37,762
I think the other thing,
when I think about, um.

664
00:37:38,344 --> 00:37:39,571
Trump's aesthetic.

665
00:37:39,953 --> 00:37:44,289
And so I, I grew up in the south, um,
but I am originally from New Jersey.

666
00:37:44,644 --> 00:37:49,553
And, uh, and I remember Trump when I was
really young, uh, primarily because my dad

667
00:37:49,853 --> 00:37:53,262
was from, um, Pleasantville, New Jersey,
which is right outside of Atlantic City.

668
00:37:53,589 --> 00:37:56,998
And so, um, there were conversations
that I didn't understand as a kid,

669
00:37:56,998 --> 00:37:59,916
and Trump was a part of those because
he was, you know, he had his casinos

670
00:37:59,916 --> 00:38:00,898
and all of that type of stuff.

671
00:38:00,926 --> 00:38:03,653
And I just remember being
a little kid and seeing.

672
00:38:03,716 --> 00:38:07,998
Um, a commercial for I, I guess
either it was Trump's properties

673
00:38:07,998 --> 00:38:09,498
or it was a casino or whatever.

674
00:38:09,744 --> 00:38:13,126
And I just remember looking at it on
the TV and seeing gold everywhere.

675
00:38:13,153 --> 00:38:16,153
Like that was his, his his thing gold.

676
00:38:16,507 --> 00:38:19,916
And the older I get,
the more I realize that.

677
00:38:20,662 --> 00:38:27,589
The way Trump sees gold and all the
fittings that he has around really is

678
00:38:27,589 --> 00:38:32,716
like him surrounding himself, what he
perceives of as wealth, and what people

679
00:38:32,716 --> 00:38:39,944
who don't have wealth perceive of as
wealth, but the actual uber rich usually,

680
00:38:39,971 --> 00:38:45,098
like from what I've seen, do not decorate
their houses in all gold, do not, uh,

681
00:38:45,126 --> 00:38:46,844
flaunt their, their, their wealth.

682
00:38:47,785 --> 00:38:48,930
Is present but quiet.

683
00:38:49,203 --> 00:38:53,757
Whereas like Trump's wealth is
present but loud and that speaks

684
00:38:53,757 --> 00:38:58,285
to a lot of people who do not have
the wealth and in, in a sense, him

685
00:38:58,285 --> 00:39:00,526
putting gold around the White House.

686
00:39:01,307 --> 00:39:07,144
Is a secret, in my opinion, aspirational
message to poor folks who do not

687
00:39:07,144 --> 00:39:08,971
have that one day you can have.

688
00:39:09,598 --> 00:39:13,035
I don't know that, that's just like
a theory that I've been cooking in

689
00:39:13,035 --> 00:39:14,426
my head since I was a little kid.

690
00:39:15,162 --> 00:39:16,307
I think absolutely.

691
00:39:16,307 --> 00:39:19,553
We have the proverb, all that
glitters is not gold because

692
00:39:19,553 --> 00:39:21,326
people keep needing to be reminded.

693
00:39:21,557 --> 00:39:21,939
Mm-hmm.

694
00:39:22,012 --> 00:39:22,157
And.

695
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,553
Again, in our, our primitive
lizard brains, we think shiny

696
00:39:26,553 --> 00:39:28,844
equals good, and I want that.

697
00:39:28,871 --> 00:39:31,926
And we don't look below the surface.

698
00:39:32,253 --> 00:39:42,126
And I think that Trump's focus on glitzing
up the the White House on making these

699
00:39:42,126 --> 00:39:47,553
new constructions now in his second term,
is not accidental because you often see.

700
00:39:48,603 --> 00:39:52,966
Populist leaders focusing on
aesthetic projects, uh, towards

701
00:39:52,966 --> 00:39:54,685
the end of their political life.

702
00:39:55,094 --> 00:39:59,621
Um, in Hitler's last days in the
Bunker, he was still pouring over

703
00:39:59,621 --> 00:40:01,694
models for a museum that he was, he.

704
00:40:03,016 --> 00:40:07,162
Building in his hometown of Lin,
um, in which he was planning to put

705
00:40:07,162 --> 00:40:11,307
all of the, the masterpieces seized
from victims of the Holocaust,

706
00:40:11,307 --> 00:40:12,780
from other museums across Europe.

707
00:40:13,244 --> 00:40:16,435
I was gonna have 22 miles of
galleries all stuffed full of

708
00:40:16,435 --> 00:40:17,662
the artistic wealth of the world.

709
00:40:17,971 --> 00:40:20,426
And I think there's a
comfort in this idea.

710
00:40:20,426 --> 00:40:25,171
Like if I make something spectacular and
beautiful enough, all of the cruelty that

711
00:40:25,171 --> 00:40:27,189
went into making it will be justified.

712
00:40:27,189 --> 00:40:28,362
I'll be forgiven.

713
00:40:28,744 --> 00:40:33,080
Um, so when I'm feeling depressed
about the, the world, I think maybe

714
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:40,635
this focus on the golds, uh, now is
such, um, uh, an obsession because he

715
00:40:40,635 --> 00:40:42,489
recognizes that he's on his way out.

716
00:40:43,457 --> 00:40:46,127
Uh, and, and Jason, this falls
into the propaganda category.

717
00:40:46,247 --> 00:40:49,427
I will say in most of my research,
and maybe you have other examples,

718
00:40:49,637 --> 00:40:53,867
um, this stuff doesn't tend to last
if you don't actually have a legacy,

719
00:40:53,867 --> 00:40:56,777
but you just sort of imprint one,
it, it doesn't have staying power.

720
00:40:58,817 --> 00:40:59,207
Well.

721
00:40:59,567 --> 00:41:01,487
I think you're looking at the past.

722
00:41:01,487 --> 00:41:02,987
There's two ways of looking at this.

723
00:41:03,137 --> 00:41:07,637
Looking at the past, looking at
leaders in the past and, uh, who

724
00:41:07,697 --> 00:41:11,987
did this kind of thing and what
that behavior correlated with, and

725
00:41:11,987 --> 00:41:13,877
then the immediate future of that.

726
00:41:14,237 --> 00:41:18,557
But presumably, Trump
wants to protect against.

727
00:41:18,917 --> 00:41:22,037
His legacy being removed, right?

728
00:41:22,307 --> 00:41:26,117
So let's look at the future
and see what that means.

729
00:41:26,207 --> 00:41:34,427
What that means is he cannot ever have,
uh, any Democrat in power again, because

730
00:41:34,427 --> 00:41:36,197
that would be the end of his legacy.

731
00:41:36,347 --> 00:41:40,392
He has to make sure that he
does not fall into disrepute.

732
00:41:41,207 --> 00:41:45,737
And so the only way to ensure that,
and Donald Trump definitely wants to

733
00:41:45,737 --> 00:41:52,397
ensure that is by an thought, by, by
preventing, by, by making sure that his

734
00:41:52,397 --> 00:41:56,717
successor regime, uh, will, will prohibit.

735
00:41:57,062 --> 00:41:59,792
His name from coming into dis disrepute.

736
00:41:59,942 --> 00:42:04,442
Of course he will come into
disrepute because Nero, like he

737
00:42:04,442 --> 00:42:10,352
has, uh, extraordinary corruption,
extraordinary immorality.

738
00:42:10,592 --> 00:42:12,542
So he will come into disrepute.

739
00:42:12,692 --> 00:42:18,572
So he has to make sure that his
successor, his successors, uh,

740
00:42:18,692 --> 00:42:20,312
prevent that from happening.

741
00:42:20,312 --> 00:42:22,382
So we can see how that's gonna go.

742
00:42:22,382 --> 00:42:25,442
He is gonna dismantle
elections and he's going to.

743
00:42:25,697 --> 00:42:31,877
Ensure that in, uh, perpetuity or as
long as he can ensure it is Trump death.

744
00:42:32,897 --> 00:42:34,697
What I think is interesting is that, um.

745
00:42:35,147 --> 00:42:36,917
What the White House even said about this.

746
00:42:36,917 --> 00:42:39,437
When asked the New York Times Chief
White House correspondent Peter

747
00:42:39,437 --> 00:42:42,677
Baker asked the White House for
comment on this so-called Trump of

748
00:42:42,677 --> 00:42:44,267
personality that Trump has fostered.

749
00:42:44,387 --> 00:42:45,557
Peter Baker WR wrote this.

750
00:42:45,557 --> 00:42:47,867
He said his staff did not
reject the notion that he was

751
00:42:47,867 --> 00:42:49,307
fostering a cult of personality.

752
00:42:49,397 --> 00:42:52,427
When asked for comment, indeed it
released a statement seeming to

753
00:42:52,427 --> 00:42:54,347
argue that one would be deserved.

754
00:42:54,407 --> 00:42:55,547
He quotes the White House.

755
00:42:55,607 --> 00:42:55,997
Uh.

756
00:42:56,382 --> 00:43:00,372
Uh, communications director Stephen Chung
and says, president Trump is going to go

757
00:43:00,372 --> 00:43:04,152
down in history as the most successful and
consequential president in our lifetime.

758
00:43:04,242 --> 00:43:07,122
He built the most powerful political
and cultural movement ever.

759
00:43:07,242 --> 00:43:10,902
His successes on behalf of the American
people will be imprinted upon the fabric

760
00:43:10,902 --> 00:43:15,222
of America and will be felt by every
other White House that comes after him.

761
00:43:15,622 --> 00:43:19,222
Which speaks to what you're saying,
at least as far as the goal goes,

762
00:43:19,372 --> 00:43:21,562
that this is a permanent imprint.

763
00:43:21,862 --> 00:43:24,532
Uh, Stephen Chung and Donald Trump
know that there will be people

764
00:43:24,532 --> 00:43:27,562
who don't believe that legacy can
just be put on a building, that it

765
00:43:27,562 --> 00:43:29,062
has to actually be, be borne out.

766
00:43:30,857 --> 00:43:35,627
Well, especially given what he's
transforming the reputation of the

767
00:43:35,627 --> 00:43:40,997
United States into, which is, uh,
you know, a sort of cheap vehicle

768
00:43:40,997 --> 00:43:45,882
for his country's, uh, for, for his
family's own personal enrichment.

769
00:43:46,422 --> 00:43:51,522
For a, for a sign of, of, uh,
America is now a symbol of hatred

770
00:43:51,522 --> 00:43:53,232
and brutality to the world.

771
00:43:53,382 --> 00:43:56,022
We're executing protestors on the street.

772
00:43:56,292 --> 00:44:01,872
Uh, all the while this self aggrandizement
is happening, he's saying that he

773
00:44:01,872 --> 00:44:07,422
is much more powerful than America,
that really America, uh, transforms

774
00:44:07,422 --> 00:44:10,122
into him that the country is him.

775
00:44:10,547 --> 00:44:13,427
And so all around the
world, people see this.

776
00:44:13,427 --> 00:44:16,337
This is not, there are plenty of
autocrats who don't do this, but

777
00:44:16,337 --> 00:44:20,747
the autocrats who do do this, uh,
you know, are either humili, you

778
00:44:20,747 --> 00:44:22,967
know, humiliating for their country.

779
00:44:23,357 --> 00:44:25,967
Or there are terrifying
dictators like Stalin.

780
00:44:26,267 --> 00:44:29,987
And here we have a kind of
mixture of those two things.

781
00:44:30,107 --> 00:44:33,827
A tarter, uh, uh, someone who's
humiliating the United States by

782
00:44:33,827 --> 00:44:37,097
this incredibly crass behavior
and destroying the United States.

783
00:44:37,097 --> 00:44:39,467
He's saying, I am the United States.

784
00:44:39,467 --> 00:44:44,567
There is no America besides me,
and he's remaking America into,

785
00:44:44,867 --> 00:44:46,512
uh, you know, a symbol of cruelty.

786
00:44:46,847 --> 00:44:49,367
Uh, for, um, the future to come.

787
00:44:49,967 --> 00:44:52,067
So I wanna just explore this for
a second because the thing about

788
00:44:52,067 --> 00:44:55,757
NAV that interests me was how he,
some things were very obvious.

789
00:44:55,757 --> 00:44:58,517
You have to read my book in school and
you have to name the airport after me.

790
00:44:58,727 --> 00:45:00,617
But, but some things are less obvious.

791
00:45:00,617 --> 00:45:04,607
The idea that there's this day, I didn't
name all the months of the year after

792
00:45:04,607 --> 00:45:08,867
me or someone related to me, but this is
flag day and it happens to be my birthday.

793
00:45:08,867 --> 00:45:10,427
And so we're gonna celebrate
flag day on my birthday.

794
00:45:10,427 --> 00:45:13,007
Donald Trump had that army
parade on his birthday.

795
00:45:13,127 --> 00:45:15,017
This lack of separation between.

796
00:45:15,092 --> 00:45:16,172
Leader and country.

797
00:45:16,172 --> 00:45:18,812
I mean, we struggle with the separation
between our branches of power.

798
00:45:18,932 --> 00:45:21,302
We struggle with our first
amendment rights to separate

799
00:45:21,302 --> 00:45:22,532
church and straight state.

800
00:45:22,712 --> 00:45:23,882
Donald Trump's blurring all those lines.

801
00:45:26,447 --> 00:45:28,937
Yeah, the United States
is now Trump, Stan.

802
00:45:29,267 --> 00:45:32,057
So, you know, and that's
what he's trying to do.

803
00:45:32,057 --> 00:45:35,327
He is trying to say that
America ends with him.

804
00:45:35,387 --> 00:45:36,467
He's the culmination.

805
00:45:36,467 --> 00:45:37,097
He really is.

806
00:45:37,097 --> 00:45:37,817
America.

807
00:45:37,997 --> 00:45:40,517
In the future, it'll
will just be war worship.

808
00:45:40,727 --> 00:45:45,887
You know, the admiration will be to a
king, to a dictator, uh, rather than.

809
00:45:46,162 --> 00:45:47,722
To the country itself.

810
00:45:47,722 --> 00:45:51,172
He's trying to replace
America with himself.

811
00:45:51,382 --> 00:45:55,642
Uh, and you know, this doesn't,
this, this what, this, this is

812
00:45:55,642 --> 00:45:57,712
a national humiliation, right?

813
00:45:57,892 --> 00:46:03,052
Trump is, is humiliating America
on the world stage because

814
00:46:03,202 --> 00:46:05,182
everybody knows what this is.

815
00:46:05,392 --> 00:46:08,992
This isn't some sophisticated
version of autocracy.

816
00:46:09,112 --> 00:46:12,502
This is, uh, a kind of,
uh, you know, this is like.

817
00:46:12,762 --> 00:46:17,857
Uh, the cult, the cult of the, a
leader, classic European fascism.

818
00:46:18,067 --> 00:46:23,797
The United States has always had, uh,
racist, xenophobic, uh, structure to it.

819
00:46:23,827 --> 00:46:27,397
We've always been had this white
supremacy that Trump is now

820
00:46:27,397 --> 00:46:29,947
making the hallmark of our nation.

821
00:46:30,307 --> 00:46:34,387
Uh, but now we look, we have this
extra element, which is much more like

822
00:46:34,447 --> 00:46:39,457
classic European fascism, Mussolini,
uh, and Hitler who sought to.

823
00:46:39,887 --> 00:46:42,167
Create, you know, just try that.

824
00:46:42,182 --> 00:46:43,542
This is how fascism works.

825
00:46:44,693 --> 00:46:49,703
so the way that you believe we should
approach the Constitution, which is to

826
00:46:50,213 --> 00:46:54,173
make the constitutional order better,
that should be the guiding principle.

827
00:46:54,938 --> 00:46:59,948
Do you think that's broad based enough
that anybody with any different type

828
00:46:59,948 --> 00:47:04,118
of interpretation of the constitution
can grab hold of that idea and use

829
00:47:04,118 --> 00:47:05,348
it as a principle of their own?

830
00:47:06,398 --> 00:47:09,098
Okay, so if we can back up a little bit.

831
00:47:09,308 --> 00:47:13,508
You put your finger on the main theme
of the book, which is the only way to

832
00:47:13,508 --> 00:47:17,288
choose the theory of interpretation is to
think what would make our constitutional

833
00:47:17,288 --> 00:47:18,458
order better rather than worse?

834
00:47:19,748 --> 00:47:22,568
I expect some people
to hate that argument.

835
00:47:22,598 --> 00:47:27,308
And I know from vetting it that some
people do hate that argument, but the

836
00:47:27,308 --> 00:47:29,648
claim is that's the only game in town.

837
00:47:29,978 --> 00:47:31,058
There's no other way.

838
00:47:31,448 --> 00:47:35,948
So you can't haul out some
abstraction, call it interpretation.

839
00:47:36,278 --> 00:47:37,928
Say I believe in interpretation.

840
00:47:37,928 --> 00:47:39,788
Therefore, I believe in moral readings.

841
00:47:40,538 --> 00:47:43,208
'cause other people say I believe
in interpretation too, and I

842
00:47:43,208 --> 00:47:45,128
follow the original understanding.

843
00:47:45,728 --> 00:47:47,708
So there's nowhere else to go.

844
00:47:48,368 --> 00:47:53,348
Whether that's maddening or liberating,
it's the only question we ask.

845
00:47:53,618 --> 00:47:54,908
It's the only question we have.

846
00:47:55,748 --> 00:48:01,868
Now, I think some people will say, I don't
like that question because it makes my

847
00:48:01,868 --> 00:48:04,148
preferred theory start to look terrible.

848
00:48:04,658 --> 00:48:08,378
And I say to them, well, maybe
your preferred theory is terrible.

849
00:48:09,398 --> 00:48:13,298
Other people will say that my
preferred theory rests on some

850
00:48:13,298 --> 00:48:17,588
fervor ground than it's gonna lead
to a better constitutional order.

851
00:48:18,908 --> 00:48:21,098
I say, well, what is that firmer brand?

852
00:48:21,368 --> 00:48:23,498
Is it a noun with four syllables?

853
00:48:23,918 --> 00:48:24,818
What does it look like?

854
00:48:25,538 --> 00:48:31,628
Legitimacy, that has four syllables, but
that's not going to justify any particular

855
00:48:31,628 --> 00:48:34,023
theory without getting pretty fine grain.

856
00:48:35,228 --> 00:48:39,938
So I've had an exchange actually with
the leading originalists within the last

857
00:48:39,938 --> 00:48:44,738
week who, I'm not sure if there's a word
in English, the rest we want in Germany.

858
00:48:45,128 --> 00:48:46,028
It's a positive word.

859
00:48:46,028 --> 00:48:46,988
I was honored.

860
00:48:46,988 --> 00:48:48,398
I think that's the closest I get to it.

861
00:48:48,728 --> 00:48:52,868
I was honored that this originalist
said, I like your book and there's a

862
00:48:52,868 --> 00:48:58,178
lot of it I agree with and uh, what I
liked about that was that if you're a

863
00:48:58,178 --> 00:48:59,708
believer in the original understanding.

864
00:49:00,803 --> 00:49:04,583
You might be prepared to say,
look, I don't trust the judges.

865
00:49:04,763 --> 00:49:06,293
I don't trust their moral readings.

866
00:49:06,293 --> 00:49:08,663
Their concept of democracy
might be really screwy.

867
00:49:09,263 --> 00:49:11,723
I think stability in the
law is very important.

868
00:49:12,143 --> 00:49:17,873
I know the original constitution wasn't,
you know, broadly democratic, but it's

869
00:49:17,873 --> 00:49:20,453
really good they hit the jackpot there.

870
00:49:20,903 --> 00:49:25,193
And if we follow the original
understanding, we're going to have

871
00:49:25,223 --> 00:49:27,383
a terrific but imperfect order.

872
00:49:28,058 --> 00:49:33,218
Now, I strongly disagree with that
view, but I salute it because at

873
00:49:33,218 --> 00:49:37,088
least it's making the view on the
right terrain and then we can talk

874
00:49:37,088 --> 00:49:39,158
about whether those things are true.

875
00:49:39,608 --> 00:49:43,628
And I would say such things as if you're
originalist, then freedom of speech.

876
00:49:43,628 --> 00:49:47,798
As we live and breathe, it goes in the
toilet and that's a terrible thing.

877
00:49:48,308 --> 00:49:51,938
And the national government can
discriminate on the basis of race and sex.

878
00:49:51,938 --> 00:49:55,658
It can say we're not hiring women
here, and that's also a terrible thing.

879
00:49:56,213 --> 00:50:01,763
There are 1,001 or maybe 101
terrible things that follow from

880
00:50:01,763 --> 00:50:06,983
originalism, and then the originalist
has a number of possible responses.

881
00:50:06,983 --> 00:50:11,033
One is, I respect precedent, so the
things you're worried about won't happen.

882
00:50:11,573 --> 00:50:15,713
I think Justice Barrett would say
that the Not Justice Thomas the

883
00:50:15,713 --> 00:50:18,863
Originalists could say Those terrible
things actually won't happen.

884
00:50:18,863 --> 00:50:21,053
My method will stop them from happening.

885
00:50:21,053 --> 00:50:23,813
I think Justice Thomas would
say that, but these are all

886
00:50:23,813 --> 00:50:25,493
very good discussions to have.

887
00:50:26,858 --> 00:50:29,828
Your approach by thinking about what
makes the constitutional order better.

888
00:50:30,548 --> 00:50:34,028
One of the critiques that I've
heard is that you're focused on the

889
00:50:34,028 --> 00:50:38,588
outcomes of decisions rather than
the process to be able to get there.

890
00:50:39,188 --> 00:50:43,598
Do you think that's a fair assessment
and why should we focus on outcomes

891
00:50:43,778 --> 00:50:45,278
rather than the process first?

892
00:50:46,358 --> 00:50:48,908
Okay, so, uh, that is fair.

893
00:50:49,298 --> 00:50:53,138
If we're building a
hammer or a cell phone.

894
00:50:54,038 --> 00:51:00,518
We want the cell phone to work and we
want the hammer to drive the nail in.

895
00:51:01,088 --> 00:51:11,078
And if the process involves some materials
or some speed or some ingenuity, but the

896
00:51:11,198 --> 00:51:17,588
cell phone will work or the hammer is
defeated by the nail, that's not good.

897
00:51:17,948 --> 00:51:22,268
So if we have outcomes that are horrific.

898
00:51:23,183 --> 00:51:27,263
Brutal and Savage and freedom denying.

899
00:51:27,983 --> 00:51:31,913
Why would we think that some
process is self justify?

900
00:51:32,273 --> 00:51:35,903
So originalism or moral readings?

901
00:51:36,533 --> 00:51:40,313
The only thing that's good about the
process is the outcomes it produces.

902
00:51:41,003 --> 00:51:43,463
Now it might be you're
gonna bite some bullets.

903
00:51:44,003 --> 00:51:47,093
I don't think the Constitution has
anything to say about animal rights.

904
00:51:47,513 --> 00:51:49,943
It's really hard to get
there, and I regret that.

905
00:51:50,123 --> 00:51:51,383
But there we are.

906
00:51:51,773 --> 00:51:57,863
The Constitution doesn't say much in
support of Franklin De Roosevelt's,

907
00:51:57,863 --> 00:52:02,483
second Bill of Rights, which included
a right to education, right to a job,

908
00:52:02,483 --> 00:52:04,343
right to protection if you're disabled.

909
00:52:04,493 --> 00:52:09,143
I think it was, you know, a huge
advance in American democratic practice,

910
00:52:09,143 --> 00:52:13,253
the second Bill of Rights, but the
Constitution doesn't get us there.

911
00:52:13,493 --> 00:52:18,023
They're not impossible, probably
impossible with animals, but there

912
00:52:18,023 --> 00:52:23,513
are things in the structure of, let's
say, a. Text precedent, legitimate

913
00:52:23,513 --> 00:52:28,853
argument that mean we're not gonna get
every result we like and that's fine.

914
00:52:29,333 --> 00:52:34,493
The question is whether we get too
many results we hate, not that we

915
00:52:34,493 --> 00:52:39,803
don't get enough results we love, and
if that's the only way to evaluate a

916
00:52:39,803 --> 00:52:42,293
constitutional order, pick a country.

917
00:52:42,293 --> 00:52:44,758
I'm randomly going to say Germany.

918
00:52:45,353 --> 00:52:48,863
If the judge has adopted an approach
to interpretation in Germany.

919
00:52:49,658 --> 00:52:52,748
That led to a much worse democracy.

920
00:52:53,528 --> 00:52:57,098
Wouldn't that count very
strongly against the approach?

921
00:52:57,998 --> 00:53:01,358
What would be said by those who
defend that approach that leads

922
00:53:01,358 --> 00:53:03,098
a worse approach to democracy?

923
00:53:03,698 --> 00:53:04,808
I think only two things.

924
00:53:04,808 --> 00:53:07,238
One is democracies and
what they care about.

925
00:53:07,628 --> 00:53:10,628
The other thing, they think
it's better, not worse, and,

926
00:53:10,628 --> 00:53:12,068
and now we're off to the races.

927
00:53:12,068 --> 00:53:15,368
Now we're talking, and maybe we're
talking a little lower volume.

928
00:53:15,368 --> 00:53:18,998
By the way, one goal of my
book is to lower the volume.

929
00:53:19,463 --> 00:53:24,233
So not to lower the intensity with
which people believe what they

930
00:53:24,233 --> 00:53:28,763
believe, but to look at people who
believe something very differently

931
00:53:29,333 --> 00:53:32,273
with curiosity rather than rage.

932
00:53:33,453 --> 00:53:34,713
We've just heard clips starting with:

933
00:53:35,563 --> 00:53:38,793
1619 tracing how slavery grew
from a conditional institution in

934
00:53:38,793 --> 00:53:43,823
1619 to an inherited, permanent
condition affecting one-fifth of the

935
00:53:43,823 --> 00:53:46,893
entire colonial population by 1776

936
00:53:47,733 --> 00:53:51,843
The Political Philosophy Podcast
distinguished between compromises

937
00:53:51,863 --> 00:53:56,823
born of shared values and those
born of pro-slavery coercion

938
00:53:57,713 --> 00:54:01,363
Radio Atlantic stressed that what makes
this moment uniquely dangerous is that

939
00:54:01,363 --> 00:54:04,713
the federal government, historically
a source of protection for minority

940
00:54:04,713 --> 00:54:07,733
Americans, is now itself the antagonist

941
00:54:08,473 --> 00:54:12,813
The Bunker raised concerns that
Trump's 250th birthday celebrations

942
00:54:13,163 --> 00:54:16,753
could permanently engrave a
narrow, authoritarian vision

943
00:54:16,773 --> 00:54:21,103
of America into the national
identity, outlasting Trump himself

944
00:54:21,673 --> 00:54:26,173
Reveal drew a parallel between Trump's
gilded spectacle obsession and how

945
00:54:26,173 --> 00:54:30,983
populist leaders historically fixate on
grand aesthetic projects late in power

946
00:54:31,553 --> 00:54:34,903
Velshi warned that Trump's
behavior mirrors classic European

947
00:54:34,903 --> 00:54:38,853
fascism, comparing him to Mussolini
and Hitler in his effort to

948
00:54:38,853 --> 00:54:40,953
replace the country with himself

949
00:54:41,603 --> 00:54:45,563
And Democracy Paradox expressed hope
that the volume of constitutional

950
00:54:45,563 --> 00:54:49,633
debates could be lowered, replacing
rage toward opposing interpreters

951
00:54:49,843 --> 00:54:52,043
with curiosity about their reasoning

952
00:54:52,523 --> 00:54:55,723
And those were just the top takes, there's
lots more in the deeper dives sections,

953
00:54:55,973 --> 00:54:58,273
But first, a reminder that this
show is produced with the support

954
00:54:58,273 --> 00:55:02,253
of our members who get this show
ad-free as well as early and ad-free

955
00:55:02,253 --> 00:55:04,533
access to our other show, SOLVED!

956
00:55:04,653 --> 00:55:07,553
Including a members-only backstage
segment, all via podcast.

957
00:55:07,873 --> 00:55:09,303
We've also launched SOLVED!

958
00:55:09,313 --> 00:55:12,563
on the Best of the Left YouTube
channel but episodes are delayed there.

959
00:55:12,883 --> 00:55:16,353
The show features our team of producers
discussing a carefully curated selection

960
00:55:16,353 --> 00:55:18,653
of articles and ideas to then SOLVE!

961
00:55:18,653 --> 00:55:20,413
some of the biggest issues of our day.

962
00:55:20,843 --> 00:55:23,693
It's important to remind you that
each episode of Best of the Left

963
00:55:23,883 --> 00:55:28,073
takes about 25 hours of human
labor to produce and, SOLVED!

964
00:55:28,073 --> 00:55:29,003
isn't too far behind.

965
00:55:29,113 --> 00:55:32,603
So, if you get value out of the show
and want to support all of the work that

966
00:55:32,603 --> 00:55:34,583
goes into Best of the Left and SOLVED!

967
00:55:34,773 --> 00:55:39,083
- and get both delivered ad-free to the
new, members-only podcast feed that

968
00:55:39,083 --> 00:55:43,713
you'll receive, sign up to support
the show at bestoftheleft.com/support

969
00:55:43,963 --> 00:55:47,133
[there's a link in the show notes],
through our Patreon page, or from

970
00:55:47,133 --> 00:55:48,973
right inside the Apple Podcasts app.

971
00:55:49,403 --> 00:55:52,603
But, as always, if regular membership
isn't in the cards for you, shoot

972
00:55:52,613 --> 00:55:56,023
me an email requesting a financial
hardship membership because we don't

973
00:55:56,023 --> 00:55:59,013
let a lack of funds stand in the
way of hearing more information.

974
00:55:59,443 --> 00:56:01,703
If you have a question or would
like your comments included in the

975
00:56:01,703 --> 00:56:05,533
show you can record a voice message,
re-recording until you're happy with it,

976
00:56:05,843 --> 00:56:07,683
by tapping the link in the show notes,

977
00:56:07,963 --> 00:56:11,083
You can message us on Signal
at the handle bestoftheleft.01,

978
00:56:11,243 --> 00:56:14,913
or you can simply email me
to jay@bestoftheleft.com

979
00:56:15,723 --> 00:56:16,893
As for today's topic,

980
00:56:17,203 --> 00:56:21,243
There's a quote from Thomas
Jefferson, from an 1816 letter,

981
00:56:21,253 --> 00:56:25,353
which is now chiseled on the
Jefferson Memorial in Washington, DC.

982
00:56:25,623 --> 00:56:27,363
It’s my favorite quote of his.

983
00:56:27,693 --> 00:56:28,243
He wrote:

984
00:56:29,313 --> 00:56:34,163
"Laws and institutions must go hand in
hand with the progress of the human mind.

985
00:56:34,603 --> 00:56:38,793
As that becomes more developed, more
enlightened, as new discoveries are

986
00:56:38,793 --> 00:56:44,333
made, new truths discovered and manners
and opinions change, with the change

987
00:56:44,333 --> 00:56:49,683
of circumstances, institutions must
advance also to keep pace with the times.

988
00:56:50,113 --> 00:56:55,343
We might as well require a man to
wear still the coat which fitted him

989
00:56:55,353 --> 00:57:00,423
when a boy as a civilized society
to remain ever under the regimen

990
00:57:00,693 --> 00:57:02,733
of their barbarous ancestors."

991
00:57:02,743 --> 00:57:02,763
So,

992
00:57:05,013 --> 00:57:07,783
first, a note to those who
would deify the founders.

993
00:57:08,053 --> 00:57:12,443
Just remember that it’s not only
the America-hating, blue-haired

994
00:57:12,443 --> 00:57:13,983
lesbians criticizing them.

995
00:57:14,333 --> 00:57:20,523
That quote was Jefferson referring to
himself as barbarous as seen through

996
00:57:20,523 --> 00:57:22,063
the eyes of people in the future.

997
00:57:22,253 --> 00:57:26,943
He would clearly hate to think of
people who, 250 years later, still

998
00:57:26,953 --> 00:57:29,293
thought of the founders as unassailable.

999
00:57:29,913 --> 00:57:33,463
Besides that, as we’re making clear today,
Jefferson and the rest of the founders'

1000
00:57:33,483 --> 00:57:38,003
were full of contradictions but what
matters for this commentary is that even

1001
00:57:38,033 --> 00:57:42,103
among the founders, there was an explicit
understanding that the Constitution

1002
00:57:42,223 --> 00:57:44,953
was a starting point, not a monument.

1003
00:57:45,243 --> 00:57:47,623
It’s a scaffold and they said as much.

1004
00:57:48,573 --> 00:57:49,963
Two things have gone wrong since.

1005
00:57:50,423 --> 00:57:53,803
We never fully replaced
Jefferson’s metaphorical coat.

1006
00:57:54,203 --> 00:57:59,843
And there's now a deliberate campaign to
make sure we never realize it doesn't fit.

1007
00:58:00,793 --> 00:58:05,623
On the coat, the structures we still live
under were designed for a slaveholding

1008
00:58:05,633 --> 00:58:07,833
republic of about 4 million people.

1009
00:58:08,243 --> 00:58:13,023
Today, 340 million people are
governed by those same structures.

1010
00:58:13,463 --> 00:58:18,633
The Senate gives a voter in Wyoming
roughly 68 times the representation

1011
00:58:18,883 --> 00:58:20,193
of a voter in California.

1012
00:58:20,613 --> 00:58:24,223
The Electoral College has handed the
presidency to the loser of the popular

1013
00:58:24,223 --> 00:58:26,903
vote twice in just the last 25 years.

1014
00:58:27,413 --> 00:58:31,553
The Supreme Court holds lifetime
appointments with no binding

1015
00:58:31,603 --> 00:58:35,813
ethics code and the power to
override democratic majorities

1016
00:58:35,923 --> 00:58:38,013
with zero electoral accountability.

1017
00:58:38,773 --> 00:58:42,483
We've expanded who gets to participate
over the centuries, but the underlying

1018
00:58:42,513 --> 00:58:48,013
architecture that distributes power away
from majorities was never redesigned.

1019
00:58:48,203 --> 00:58:49,423
It just got patched.

1020
00:58:50,043 --> 00:58:55,253
Every generation adds amendments,
adds legislation, adds new rights on

1021
00:58:55,253 --> 00:58:58,953
top of the old structure, but it’s
much harder to replace the structure

1022
00:58:58,953 --> 00:59:03,623
itself or even suggest that some old
systems have outlived their welcome.

1023
00:59:04,363 --> 00:59:08,113
And there's a reason for that, which is
related to a thought I had while watching

1024
00:59:08,133 --> 00:59:10,643
a bit of Queen Elizabeth’s funeral.

1025
00:59:11,023 --> 00:59:15,093
As you might recall, there
were hours and hours of ritual.

1026
00:59:15,493 --> 00:59:19,653
Processions with people in costumes
so elaborate they looked like the

1027
00:59:19,653 --> 00:59:23,973
face cards in a deck of playing
cards, which is when it hit me where

1028
00:59:23,973 --> 00:59:25,293
those designs probably came from.

1029
00:59:26,133 --> 00:59:32,323
The coffin was carried on a gun
carriage pulled by 142 Royal Navy

1030
00:59:32,323 --> 00:59:36,763
sailors, a tradition dating back to
Queen Victoria's funeral in 1901.

1031
00:59:37,923 --> 00:59:39,453
And the whole thing took ten days.

1032
00:59:40,233 --> 00:59:45,823
So, I was watching that and what struck
me was: imagine being the person who

1033
00:59:45,833 --> 00:59:48,843
suggests cutting one of those ceremonies.

1034
00:59:49,223 --> 00:59:53,953
Imagine raising your hand and saying, "the
bit with the second procession feels a

1035
00:59:54,013 --> 00:59:59,193
touch redundant, maybe we skip it." You'd
be treated like you'd committed treason.

1036
01:00:00,053 --> 01:00:03,213
And as much as I would love to tease
the British for their pageantry

1037
01:00:03,213 --> 01:00:08,093
during episode 1776, the reality is
that this is a universal human trait.

1038
01:00:08,483 --> 01:00:12,873
It is always easier to add something
new than to remove something old.

1039
01:00:13,233 --> 01:00:17,353
New laws, new amendments, new
traditions feel like progress.

1040
01:00:17,923 --> 01:00:22,103
Tearing out something that's been
there for 200 years feels dangerous

1041
01:00:22,253 --> 01:00:26,263
and potentially disrespectful to
the past, even when it's broken.

1042
01:00:27,183 --> 01:00:29,973
Now, there's a metaphor you
might have heard about society

1043
01:00:29,983 --> 01:00:35,213
needing both a left and right
wing to fly forward, like a bird.

1044
01:00:35,943 --> 01:00:41,583
I've never liked it because both wings
on a bird work in concert toward the

1045
01:00:41,583 --> 01:00:46,563
same goal while the right and left
wings of society are better understood

1046
01:00:46,573 --> 01:00:51,423
as being in productive tension with
one another rather than cooperation.

1047
01:00:51,933 --> 01:00:54,273
A better metaphor is a sailing ship.

1048
01:00:54,913 --> 01:01:00,803
Conservatism, the instinct to preserve,
is the ballast, the weight below the

1049
01:01:00,803 --> 01:01:02,913
waterline that keeps the ship steady.

1050
01:01:04,203 --> 01:01:08,233
Progressivism is the sails, the
force that actually moves it forward.

1051
01:01:08,923 --> 01:01:12,823
All ballast and no sails,
you're stable but going nowhere.

1052
01:01:13,133 --> 01:01:15,663
All sails and no ballast, you capsize.

1053
01:01:16,393 --> 01:01:19,453
Real progressivism isn't
about discarding the past.

1054
01:01:19,603 --> 01:01:24,793
It's about looking back with honest eyes
so you can move forward with real clarity.

1055
01:01:25,383 --> 01:01:30,133
But that productive tension between
ballast and sails depends on honest

1056
01:01:30,143 --> 01:01:32,043
knowledge of what came before.

1057
01:01:32,553 --> 01:01:35,563
You can't be effective ballast
if you don't actually know

1058
01:01:35,563 --> 01:01:36,893
what you're anchoring to.

1059
01:01:37,343 --> 01:01:40,953
You can't set sails in the right direction
if you don't know where you've been.

1060
01:01:41,373 --> 01:01:43,303
And that's exactly what's
under attack right now.

1061
01:01:43,743 --> 01:01:47,103
In January, the National Park
Service removed the President's House

1062
01:01:47,113 --> 01:01:50,553
exhibit at Independence National
Historical Park in Philadelphia.

1063
01:01:50,913 --> 01:01:55,433
Panels naming nine people enslaved by
George and Martha Washington, on the

1064
01:01:55,433 --> 01:02:00,063
site where the Constitution was signed,
torn down on the administration's orders.

1065
01:02:00,703 --> 01:02:04,093
Last summer, the White House
flagged 20 Smithsonian exhibits

1066
01:02:04,263 --> 01:02:06,623
as ideologically objectionable.

1067
01:02:07,243 --> 01:02:10,283
States across the country have
passed laws restricting how racial

1068
01:02:10,283 --> 01:02:12,053
history can be taught in schools.

1069
01:02:12,363 --> 01:02:16,093
And the 250th anniversary of
the founding is being shaped

1070
01:02:16,173 --> 01:02:17,973
into a sanitized celebration.

1071
01:02:19,063 --> 01:02:21,903
The fact that this administration
is spending enormous political

1072
01:02:21,913 --> 01:02:26,523
energy to take down exhibits, gut
curricula, and dismantle educational

1073
01:02:26,523 --> 01:02:28,263
programs tells you something.

1074
01:02:28,603 --> 01:02:31,803
They know exactly what
they're doing and why.

1075
01:02:32,363 --> 01:02:36,273
If you prevent the progress of the
human mind that Jefferson described,

1076
01:02:36,583 --> 01:02:40,153
you eliminate the justification
for institutional change.

1077
01:02:40,703 --> 01:02:45,593
You don't have to defend the ill-fitting
boy's coat if nobody's ever allowed

1078
01:02:45,603 --> 01:02:47,803
to see how much the body has grown.

1079
01:02:48,543 --> 01:02:50,603
And here's what I really
want to leave you with.

1080
01:02:51,133 --> 01:02:54,373
Historical erasure doesn't just
protect the current regime.

1081
01:02:54,563 --> 01:02:58,743
It robs all of us of the
foundation we need to build from.

1082
01:02:59,533 --> 01:03:03,043
Regardless of politics, people
are natural collaborators.

1083
01:03:03,203 --> 01:03:08,733
That's our superpower as a species and
it's what's required to do anything great.

1084
01:03:09,333 --> 01:03:14,623
But collaboration depends on shared
understanding, shared narratives from

1085
01:03:14,623 --> 01:03:16,763
which to organize collective action.

1086
01:03:17,113 --> 01:03:19,863
And those narratives have
to include the full picture.

1087
01:03:20,493 --> 01:03:25,623
The ideals woven into the founding,
things like equality and democracy,

1088
01:03:26,093 --> 01:03:30,673
those are the shared beliefs that make
it possible to organize millions of

1089
01:03:30,673 --> 01:03:33,233
people around a common political project.

1090
01:03:33,803 --> 01:03:37,513
But the history of how we've fallen
short of those ideals, and the history

1091
01:03:37,513 --> 01:03:41,143
of how people fought to close the
gap, that's the part that tells us

1092
01:03:41,183 --> 01:03:42,823
what the work actually looks like.

1093
01:03:43,773 --> 01:03:47,983
Erase the failures and you lose the
evidence that the coat doesn't fit.

1094
01:03:48,543 --> 01:03:52,893
Erase the movements that forced
change and you lose the proof that

1095
01:03:52,913 --> 01:03:56,873
ordinary people can make institutions
live up to their own promises.

1096
01:03:57,443 --> 01:04:02,503
Erase the ideals themselves, along
with a complicated appreciation of

1097
01:04:02,503 --> 01:04:06,983
where they came from, and you lose the
shared language that makes collective

1098
01:04:06,993 --> 01:04:08,853
action possible in the first place.

1099
01:04:09,753 --> 01:04:14,743
That tension between what America says
it is and what it's actually been is not

1100
01:04:14,913 --> 01:04:21,613
a problem to be solved because it never
will be, we’ll never outgrow our origins.

1101
01:04:22,173 --> 01:04:25,793
But it's also the engine of the
whole project, the challenge

1102
01:04:25,893 --> 01:04:27,663
to form a more perfect union.

1103
01:04:28,363 --> 01:04:33,933
The past absolutely deserves both
appreciation and criticism because

1104
01:04:33,933 --> 01:04:38,503
without an honest past to build
from, whether you’re on team ballast

1105
01:04:38,513 --> 01:04:41,053
or team sails, we're all adrift.

1106
01:04:41,463 --> 01:04:44,193
You can't chart a course
forward if someone's burned

1107
01:04:44,213 --> 01:04:45,753
the maps and the log book.

1108
01:04:46,493 --> 01:04:49,423
So the fight is local and
it's happening right now.

1109
01:04:49,543 --> 01:04:51,593
School boards are deciding curricula.

1110
01:04:51,843 --> 01:04:54,373
Museums are deciding
what stays on the wall.

1111
01:04:54,633 --> 01:04:57,063
Libraries are deciding
what stays on the shelf.

1112
01:04:57,753 --> 01:05:01,163
Getting involved in those
decisions is as concrete and

1113
01:05:01,163 --> 01:05:03,423
immediate as political action gets.

1114
01:05:04,203 --> 01:05:07,883
Jefferson, for all his failures,
articulated the principle that

1115
01:05:07,883 --> 01:05:10,633
founder-worshippers now betray.

1116
01:05:11,163 --> 01:05:14,073
The document was meant to be outgrown.

1117
01:05:14,493 --> 01:05:17,273
The structures were meant to be replaced.

1118
01:05:17,513 --> 01:05:18,563
He said so himself.

1119
01:05:19,083 --> 01:05:21,913
Our national coat doesn't fit.

1120
01:05:22,333 --> 01:05:23,823
The founders knew it wouldn't.

1121
01:05:24,043 --> 01:05:27,793
And the entire project of
erasing history is the project

1122
01:05:27,813 --> 01:05:30,003
of making sure we never notice.

1123
01:05:32,673 --> 01:05:35,413
Note that we've begun putting
my commentaries on YouTube so if

1124
01:05:35,413 --> 01:05:38,243
you find them insightful, check
out our channel and share them!

1125
01:05:38,563 --> 01:05:39,543
Link in the show notes.

1126
01:05:40,676 --> 01:05:43,976
And now we'll continue to dive
deeper on three topics today.

1127
01:05:44,216 --> 01:05:49,406
First up, section A, constitution
followed by section B, Trump land and

1128
01:05:49,406 --> 01:05:52,136
section C, authoritarian nostalgia.

1129
01:05:52,461 --> 01:05:55,641
During the American Revolution,
the English intellectual Samuel

1130
01:05:55,641 --> 01:06:00,861
Johnson sarcastically asks, why
do we hear the loudest Yelps for

1131
01:06:00,861 --> 01:06:03,171
liberty from the drivers of Negroes?

1132
01:06:03,501 --> 01:06:08,061
And of course, it's a very valid
question if we think of the heroes

1133
01:06:08,061 --> 01:06:12,231
of the revolution, while many
of them are opposed to slavery.

1134
01:06:12,501 --> 01:06:18,111
John Adams, Samuel Adams, John Jay,
the young man, Alexander Hamilton.

1135
01:06:18,591 --> 01:06:22,761
Many of the other leaders of the
revolution, Washington, Jefferson,

1136
01:06:23,031 --> 01:06:28,611
Patrick Henry, the Pinkney in South
Carolina, they all own huge numbers of

1137
01:06:28,611 --> 01:06:34,311
slaves, and indeed, probably a majority
of the revolutionary leadership in terms

1138
01:06:34,311 --> 01:06:36,471
of sheer numbers were slave owners.

1139
01:06:36,831 --> 01:06:40,821
And this is a question that very few
people in the revolution wanted to

1140
01:06:40,821 --> 01:06:44,451
think about now as the revolution began.

1141
01:06:44,451 --> 01:06:45,021
However.

1142
01:06:45,471 --> 01:06:49,281
Liberty began to spread in
some parts of the nation.

1143
01:06:49,911 --> 01:06:53,451
At the battles of Lexington in
Concord, there were black soldiers

1144
01:06:53,451 --> 01:06:57,891
fighting along white soldiers
in the Massachusetts militias.

1145
01:06:58,221 --> 01:07:01,976
And at the Battle of Bunker Hill, one
of the heroes was a black soldier.

1146
01:07:03,171 --> 01:07:07,011
When George Washington arrived in
Cambridge to take command of the

1147
01:07:07,011 --> 01:07:11,151
American troops, he was shocked to
discover that there were hundreds of

1148
01:07:11,151 --> 01:07:14,061
black soldiers in his new regiments.

1149
01:07:14,451 --> 01:07:19,461
Obviously, for a Virginia slave owner,
the site of black men with muskets and

1150
01:07:19,461 --> 01:07:23,331
bayonets was something he had never
encountered and something that he

1151
01:07:23,331 --> 01:07:26,241
probably always feared and worried about.

1152
01:07:26,751 --> 01:07:30,201
But gradually, George Washington
came to the conclusion that black

1153
01:07:30,201 --> 01:07:32,061
soldiers were just like white soldiers.

1154
01:07:32,331 --> 01:07:34,821
Some were cowards, some were heroes.

1155
01:07:35,061 --> 01:07:38,721
Most were simply men doing
their jobs as good soldiers.

1156
01:07:39,051 --> 01:07:43,251
And by the end of the revolution, one
of Washington's favorite regiments

1157
01:07:43,491 --> 01:07:48,501
was the first Rhode Island, which
was about 50% black and 50% white.

1158
01:07:48,801 --> 01:07:51,591
And most of the blacks in
the first Rhode Island.

1159
01:07:51,801 --> 01:07:53,541
Had been slaves when the war began.

1160
01:07:53,961 --> 01:07:58,461
So we see during the revolution a
transition from slavery to freedom.

1161
01:08:00,171 --> 01:08:03,021
Some northern states begin
to dismantle slavery.

1162
01:08:03,501 --> 01:08:06,981
Pennsylvania passes the first
piece of legislation in the history

1163
01:08:06,981 --> 01:08:08,841
of the world to end slavery.

1164
01:08:09,051 --> 01:08:11,811
The Pennsylvania Gradual
Abolition Act of 1780.

1165
01:08:12,291 --> 01:08:14,001
The law worked in this way.

1166
01:08:14,606 --> 01:08:18,596
The children of all slave women would
be born free, and thus, literally

1167
01:08:18,806 --> 01:08:24,116
slavery would die out In Pennsylvania
eventually, Rhode Island, Connecticut,

1168
01:08:24,116 --> 01:08:28,856
New York, New Jersey, and even the
Canadian province of Upper Canada today

1169
01:08:28,856 --> 01:08:34,016
known as Ontario, would adopt a gradual
abolition act based on the Pennsylvania.

1170
01:08:35,091 --> 01:08:39,801
Shortly after Pennsylvania
passed, its Gradual Abolition Act.

1171
01:08:40,101 --> 01:08:44,181
Massachusetts adopted its 1780
Constitution, which declared that

1172
01:08:44,181 --> 01:08:45,861
all men were born free and equal.

1173
01:08:46,251 --> 01:08:51,651
And by 1783 after the Constitution
was adopted, the Massachusetts courts

1174
01:08:51,651 --> 01:08:55,821
ruled that this meant that slaves could
no longer be held in Massachusetts.

1175
01:08:56,696 --> 01:09:02,186
New Hampshire had a similar clause in
its constitution and states that joined

1176
01:09:02,186 --> 01:09:07,076
the union after the revolution, like
Vermont and Ohio, simply prohibited

1177
01:09:07,076 --> 01:09:09,596
slavery in their new constitutions.

1178
01:09:10,466 --> 01:09:15,716
So at the time of the Constitutional
convention in 1787, only Pennsylvania,

1179
01:09:15,716 --> 01:09:19,016
Connecticut, and Rhode Island
had passed gradual abolition

1180
01:09:19,016 --> 01:09:23,216
acts, and only Massachusetts and
New Hampshire had ended slavery.

1181
01:09:24,156 --> 01:09:28,806
Slavery was legal in all of the other
states, and while we think of slavery

1182
01:09:28,806 --> 01:09:33,156
as being a southern institution, there
were a substantial number of slaves in

1183
01:09:33,156 --> 01:09:35,976
both New Jersey and New York at the time.

1184
01:09:35,976 --> 01:09:37,566
The constitutional convention met

1185
01:09:39,996 --> 01:09:45,726
the US Constitution was of course
a complicated document written by

1186
01:09:45,816 --> 01:09:51,546
a nation in which slavery was legal
and prosperous in most of the states.

1187
01:09:52,746 --> 01:09:58,086
At the convention, slavery is debated
throughout the summer of 1787.

1188
01:09:58,146 --> 01:10:01,716
At the very beginning of the
convention, the question is how do you

1189
01:10:01,716 --> 01:10:03,906
allocate representation in Congress?

1190
01:10:04,296 --> 01:10:09,156
And immediately there is a debate
between those people who say, allocation

1191
01:10:09,156 --> 01:10:12,726
of representation should be based
on the whole number of free people.

1192
01:10:13,821 --> 01:10:17,451
Those who would like it based
on the whole number of people.

1193
01:10:17,811 --> 01:10:21,951
The difference, of course, is
critical because Virginia has the

1194
01:10:21,951 --> 01:10:23,841
largest population in the nation.

1195
01:10:23,991 --> 01:10:26,421
If you count slaves and free people.

1196
01:10:26,571 --> 01:10:30,621
But if you only count free people,
Pennsylvania has the largest population.

1197
01:10:31,671 --> 01:10:36,891
Thus, the debate in the convention
is about political power.

1198
01:10:37,521 --> 01:10:41,301
Does the South get political
power for its slaves or.

1199
01:10:41,976 --> 01:10:46,776
Is the national government going to
be based only on the contributions of

1200
01:10:46,776 --> 01:10:50,796
free people and thus only free people
would be counted for representation.

1201
01:10:51,126 --> 01:10:55,746
We all know, of course, that in the end
the constitutional convention adopts

1202
01:10:55,746 --> 01:10:57,306
something called the three fifths clause.

1203
01:10:57,936 --> 01:11:02,616
The three fifths clause says that
representatives and direct taxes would

1204
01:11:02,701 --> 01:11:07,146
be allocated in the country by counting
the whole number of free people.

1205
01:11:07,791 --> 01:11:12,591
Including indentured servants
and others who have some sort of

1206
01:11:12,591 --> 01:11:18,381
servitude but are not slaves, and
three fifths of all other persons.

1207
01:11:18,621 --> 01:11:24,141
So the Constitution requires that you
count up all the free people and then you

1208
01:11:24,141 --> 01:11:30,981
count up all the slaves and you multiply
them by three fifths, 60%, and that

1209
01:11:30,981 --> 01:11:32,931
becomes the basis for representation.

1210
01:11:33,546 --> 01:11:36,096
Now this clause is often misunderstood.

1211
01:11:36,456 --> 01:11:40,986
The three-fifths clause does not say that
black people are three-fifths of a person.

1212
01:11:41,646 --> 01:11:45,186
It says that political power
will be allocated to the

1213
01:11:45,186 --> 01:11:48,336
states by counting slaves.

1214
01:11:48,741 --> 01:11:52,101
Under a three fifths rule
rather than a full rule.

1215
01:11:52,341 --> 01:11:57,111
The irony of this is as follows, those
who oppose slavery did not want to

1216
01:11:57,111 --> 01:11:59,241
count slaves at all for representation.

1217
01:11:59,571 --> 01:12:02,991
After all, if you counted slaves
for representation, it simply

1218
01:12:02,991 --> 01:12:04,911
gave the slave owners more power.

1219
01:12:05,176 --> 01:12:07,096
It didn't give the slaves any power.

1220
01:12:07,306 --> 01:12:11,926
One of the delegates at the convention
mocked the idea of counting slaves and

1221
01:12:11,926 --> 01:12:16,936
said, does a voter in Virginia get as many
votes as the number of slaves he owns?

1222
01:12:17,176 --> 01:12:21,766
And of course, this was laughable and
not what was going to happen, but it did

1223
01:12:21,766 --> 01:12:24,526
indicate the political issue at stake.

1224
01:12:24,826 --> 01:12:27,946
On the other hand, southerners
said, you should count all

1225
01:12:27,946 --> 01:12:29,176
slaves for representation.

1226
01:12:29,446 --> 01:12:32,926
This didn't mean that Southerners
thought black people were equal.

1227
01:12:33,286 --> 01:12:35,506
Certainly didn't mean they
thought slaves were equal.

1228
01:12:35,746 --> 01:12:40,156
What it meant was the South wanted
to get more political power for

1229
01:12:40,156 --> 01:12:43,726
its slaves, and the way to do this
would be to count all the slaves.

1230
01:12:44,416 --> 01:12:49,996
If this had been done, then the
Southern states would've had probably a

1231
01:12:49,996 --> 01:12:53,656
majority in the House of Representatives
at the beginning of the nation.

1232
01:12:54,196 --> 01:13:00,016
However, by doing the three-fifths ratio,
the southern states don't get a majority,

1233
01:13:00,166 --> 01:13:01,906
although they have close to a majority.

1234
01:13:02,556 --> 01:13:04,926
The other place where the
three-fifths clause matters.

1235
01:13:04,926 --> 01:13:08,556
A great deal is of course, in the
election of the President, during the

1236
01:13:08,556 --> 01:13:13,776
debate over electing the president,
James Madison says the fittest things.

1237
01:13:13,776 --> 01:13:15,066
That's the language he uses.

1238
01:13:15,306 --> 01:13:19,236
Of course, fittest means the best thing
he said would be for the people themselves

1239
01:13:19,236 --> 01:13:20,856
to directly elect the president.

1240
01:13:21,396 --> 01:13:23,916
But then Madison says there are
a couple of problems with that.

1241
01:13:24,411 --> 01:13:26,781
One of the problems is there
were different rules for

1242
01:13:26,781 --> 01:13:28,071
voting in different states.

1243
01:13:28,371 --> 01:13:32,091
So that would mean that if you had
a popular vote, the state which had

1244
01:13:32,091 --> 01:13:36,021
the most expansive voting rules,
what they called the franchise at the

1245
01:13:36,021 --> 01:13:40,761
time, that that state would have more
votes in the presidential election.

1246
01:13:41,181 --> 01:13:43,131
But you could easily
have solved that problem.

1247
01:13:43,311 --> 01:13:49,521
You could have simply said that every
free adult male in the country could vote.

1248
01:13:49,986 --> 01:13:53,046
No one was considering that women
could vote at the time, so that

1249
01:13:53,046 --> 01:13:54,366
would not have been on the table.

1250
01:13:54,936 --> 01:14:00,936
But Madison said the other problem
was if you counted just the popular

1251
01:14:00,966 --> 01:14:04,086
vote, our slaves won't count.

1252
01:14:04,446 --> 01:14:07,836
He actually says we won't get
any power because of our Negroes.

1253
01:14:08,256 --> 01:14:10,716
And of course, what he means
by that is if you have a direct

1254
01:14:10,716 --> 01:14:11,601
election of the president.

1255
01:14:12,291 --> 01:14:16,101
The North with a much larger
population of free people is

1256
01:14:16,101 --> 01:14:17,691
going to overwhelm the south.

1257
01:14:17,991 --> 01:14:22,161
One of the delegates at the convention
actually put an asterisk in his own

1258
01:14:22,161 --> 01:14:28,101
private notes and said that Madison was
really trying to make sure that Virginians

1259
01:14:28,101 --> 01:14:33,351
got elected president, because if Virginia
can't count its slaves in the election

1260
01:14:33,351 --> 01:14:37,851
of the President than a New Yorker or a
Pennsylvanian or a man from Massachusetts

1261
01:14:37,851 --> 01:14:39,591
is going to get elected president.

1262
01:14:40,236 --> 01:14:46,116
The end result was that the three-fifths
clause is folded into that monstrosity

1263
01:14:46,116 --> 01:14:47,526
called the electoral college.

1264
01:14:47,796 --> 01:14:49,476
And why do we have the electoral college?

1265
01:14:49,896 --> 01:14:55,056
Not because of state's rights, not
because the delegates didn't trust voters.

1266
01:14:55,776 --> 01:14:59,616
We have the electoral college because
it was the only way they could

1267
01:14:59,616 --> 01:15:06,036
figure out how to count the numerical
power of slaves in a country where

1268
01:15:06,036 --> 01:15:07,626
slaves, of course wouldn't vote.

1269
01:15:08,711 --> 01:15:12,701
#


America kind of had been limping
along since the French stepped into

1270
01:15:12,701 --> 01:15:17,051
our revolution and effectively ended
Britain's claim to its 13 colonies.

1271
01:15:17,561 --> 01:15:21,971
And our founding fathers were fearful
of a strong central government.

1272
01:15:22,301 --> 01:15:25,811
So they first tried governance
under the Articles of Confederation.

1273
01:15:26,471 --> 01:15:28,396
The articles of
Confederation proved to be.

1274
01:15:29,336 --> 01:15:33,596
But worthless as they gave almost all
the power to the states and none to

1275
01:15:33,596 --> 01:15:37,976
the federal government because again,
our founding fathers were still pretty

1276
01:15:37,976 --> 01:15:43,916
freaked out by a strong central government
having just fought a war against a king.

1277
01:15:45,506 --> 01:15:46,646
They didn't like kings.

1278
01:15:47,756 --> 01:15:52,106
But after several thousand people in
Massachusetts staged an armed revolt

1279
01:15:52,106 --> 01:15:55,946
called Shay's Rebellion, and the federal
government proved to be completely

1280
01:15:56,006 --> 01:15:58,706
powerless to do anything about it.

1281
01:15:59,636 --> 01:16:01,556
The founders said, all right,
let's get back together.

1282
01:16:01,556 --> 01:16:03,026
Let's go to Philly one more time.

1283
01:16:03,026 --> 01:16:07,886
At first, they were there to amend,
but then ultimately they decided

1284
01:16:07,886 --> 01:16:11,426
to just throw out the articles
of Confederation altogether.

1285
01:16:12,176 --> 01:16:12,326
Hmm.

1286
01:16:12,956 --> 01:16:15,026
Turns out Confederacy's in America.

1287
01:16:15,401 --> 01:16:17,891
Have all proven to be trash.

1288
01:16:18,821 --> 01:16:21,731
So they began work on a new constitution.

1289
01:16:22,391 --> 01:16:28,421
And although the big names of the
founding fathers owned slaves like

1290
01:16:28,421 --> 01:16:34,601
Jefferson and Washington, they were at
the same time weary of the institution.

1291
01:16:35,531 --> 01:16:39,191
Some even blame the British claiming
that the British had wrapped this

1292
01:16:39,191 --> 01:16:41,981
evil institution around our necks,
and now we were stuck with it.

1293
01:16:42,491 --> 01:16:43,541
But either way.

1294
01:16:44,096 --> 01:16:50,876
They felt economically tied to slavery,
both as a nation and rich individuals.

1295
01:16:51,536 --> 01:16:56,096
Thomas Jefferson, in fact, referred to
slavery in America as quote, holding

1296
01:16:56,096 --> 01:17:01,736
a wolf by the ears, and we can neither
hold him nor safely let him go.

1297
01:17:03,251 --> 01:17:06,176
That's a phrase by the way that
the well-read Jefferson got

1298
01:17:06,176 --> 01:17:08,396
from the Roman Emperor Tiberius.

1299
01:17:09,236 --> 01:17:13,766
Turns out the founding fathers
were like big time into the Romans.

1300
01:17:14,846 --> 01:17:20,756
In reality, of course, Jefferson
could let it go, or at least he,

1301
01:17:20,762 --> 01:17:24,266
he, he was always free to let the
enslaved people he claimed to own.

1302
01:17:24,266 --> 01:17:24,506
Go.

1303
01:17:25,391 --> 01:17:26,741
But he did not.

1304
01:17:27,311 --> 01:17:31,031
In fact, it was traditional for Richmond
to free their quote unquote slaves.

1305
01:17:31,031 --> 01:17:34,751
And I put slaves in quotes because
you can't own another person

1306
01:17:34,751 --> 01:17:38,501
that's like not something you can
do, so somebody can't be a slave.

1307
01:17:39,191 --> 01:17:42,791
But anyway, it was traditional
for Richmond at that time

1308
01:17:42,791 --> 01:17:44,111
to free their slaves.

1309
01:17:44,116 --> 01:17:48,431
Upon the time of their death, I
guess I was considered benevolent.

1310
01:17:49,466 --> 01:17:53,936
Washington, for instance, did leave
it in his will that his slaves were

1311
01:17:53,936 --> 01:17:57,206
be free after his wife Martha died.

1312
01:17:57,896 --> 01:18:02,396
But after Washington died, Martha kind
of realized that she didn't really

1313
01:18:02,396 --> 01:18:08,456
like living in a house with a bunch of
people who couldn't wait for you to die.

1314
01:18:08,936 --> 01:18:13,976
So she freed Washington slaves
early, but Jefferson, who owned.

1315
01:18:15,041 --> 01:18:20,801
Upwards of 600 slaves in his
lifetime freed only two slaves.

1316
01:18:21,371 --> 01:18:27,281
Well, he was alive, and then five others
were freed after his death, including

1317
01:18:28,001 --> 01:18:35,621
two of his children that he had in his
relationship with his quote unquote slave.

1318
01:18:35,621 --> 01:18:39,336
And by the way,
sister-in-law, Sally Hemmings.

1319
01:18:40,286 --> 01:18:40,946
Yes.

1320
01:18:41,216 --> 01:18:46,106
We've all heard that Thomas Jefferson
had children with his slave, Sally

1321
01:18:46,106 --> 01:18:49,256
Hemmings, but did you know she
was actually his sister-in-law?

1322
01:18:49,706 --> 01:18:50,186
Yeah.

1323
01:18:51,476 --> 01:18:59,846
Jefferson's wife's father, I guess it
was a tradition, had sex with his slaves.

1324
01:19:00,656 --> 01:19:03,386
And kept the slaves as children.

1325
01:19:03,386 --> 01:19:11,426
And then Jefferson's wife kept her sister
as a slave, and then Jefferson just

1326
01:19:11,576 --> 01:19:14,936
keeping in the tradition, did it too.

1327
01:19:15,626 --> 01:19:22,331
He had sex with a woman that was
subservient to him, whether or not she

1328
01:19:22,346 --> 01:19:29,696
had any say in the matter, questionable,
and then he kept his own children.

1329
01:19:30,836 --> 01:19:35,576
As slaves, 1788,

1330
01:19:38,666 --> 01:19:43,436
and that still seems
pretty, pretty shitty to me.

1331
01:19:44,606 --> 01:19:47,486
Look, these were smart men.

1332
01:19:47,516 --> 01:19:50,906
I, I'm not saying they weren't, they
were brilliant men, and the document

1333
01:19:50,906 --> 01:19:55,916
they wrote was brilliant, but I'm sorry.

1334
01:19:56,036 --> 01:19:57,956
I know we're not supposed to view.

1335
01:19:58,391 --> 01:20:02,861
People in the past through the morality
that we've acquired in the present.

1336
01:20:02,861 --> 01:20:06,521
But I'm not gonna say
these were good guys.

1337
01:20:07,541 --> 01:20:12,041
I mean, we all know they use terms
like all men are created equal,

1338
01:20:12,041 --> 01:20:13,901
but clearly didn't mean all men.

1339
01:20:14,411 --> 01:20:16,856
And I'm gonna just talk
about the enslaved people.

1340
01:20:18,116 --> 01:20:21,521
They didn't want poor
white men to vote either.

1341
01:20:22,271 --> 01:20:26,681
The only people who could initially
vote were white land owning men.

1342
01:20:27,851 --> 01:20:32,321
This excluded the majority
of the American population.

1343
01:20:32,411 --> 01:20:36,371
This meant that the promise of equality
and democracy in the new nation

1344
01:20:36,401 --> 01:20:41,141
did not extend to most Americans,

1345
01:20:43,391 --> 01:20:48,101
and believe it or not, this
struck me as very strange.

1346
01:20:48,101 --> 01:20:52,331
But the first movement to expand
the vote is known as the universal

1347
01:20:52,751 --> 01:20:54,881
white male suffrage movement.

1348
01:20:55,841 --> 01:20:59,621
And I guess you could say it
was the beginning of the push

1349
01:20:59,621 --> 01:21:01,721
to expand voting rights to all.

1350
01:21:01,721 --> 01:21:06,461
But something tells me no one is exactly
gonna start looking back on that movement

1351
01:21:06,461 --> 01:21:12,701
and celebrating the universal white
male suffrage movement anytime soon.

1352
01:21:14,916 --> 01:21:16,751
At least maybe on Fox News.

1353
01:21:18,701 --> 01:21:22,601
Uh, the cer by the way, this,
the, the, the white male suffrage

1354
01:21:22,601 --> 01:21:27,731
movement was certainly not
about equality for all as much.

1355
01:21:27,731 --> 01:21:34,181
It was just non land owning white men
saying, Hey, could we get into your elite

1356
01:21:34,181 --> 01:21:36,701
clubs so we can shit on everyone too?

1357
01:21:37,856 --> 01:21:41,126
And eventually the answer
was, of course you can.

1358
01:21:42,176 --> 01:21:42,626
Okay.

1359
01:21:43,136 --> 01:21:49,196
So these were flawed individuals,
our founding fathers, but that's

1360
01:21:49,466 --> 01:21:50,936
the great thing about the document.

1361
01:21:50,936 --> 01:21:54,686
They forged, it had ideals built into it.

1362
01:21:55,076 --> 01:21:56,291
These flawed men,

1363
01:21:58,381 --> 01:22:02,486
they, they just didn't aspire to be
more, but they left room in the document.

1364
01:22:02,486 --> 01:22:03,986
So future generations.

1365
01:22:04,751 --> 01:22:11,591
Could aspire to be more so
we can aspire to be more, to

1366
01:22:11,591 --> 01:22:15,461
be more perfect, if you will.

1367
01:22:16,841 --> 01:22:21,041
And every generation has
amended the US Constitution.

1368
01:22:21,581 --> 01:22:29,951
Hell, they added three amendments in
the 1960s, then another one in 1971, but

1369
01:22:29,951 --> 01:22:32,531
the last time it was amended was 1992.

1370
01:22:33,776 --> 01:22:35,276
32 years ago.

1371
01:22:36,896 --> 01:22:39,176
I'm starting to think the
old constitution, you could

1372
01:22:39,176 --> 01:22:42,056
use some help again, maybe.

1373
01:22:42,896 --> 01:22:43,946
Maybe that's what we need to do.

1374
01:22:43,946 --> 01:22:45,056
Maybe we need to step up.

1375
01:22:46,376 --> 01:22:53,126
George Washington, who by the way did,
in case you've heard this, have the teeth

1376
01:22:53,576 --> 01:22:56,336
of enslaved people for his dentures.

1377
01:22:56,636 --> 01:22:58,106
That's not just an urban myth.

1378
01:22:58,796 --> 01:23:07,676
But in reading about it, this wasn't just
enslaved people selling your teeth used to

1379
01:23:07,676 --> 01:23:10,286
be a thing poor people did to make money.

1380
01:23:11,816 --> 01:23:13,886
Can you imagine a billboard?

1381
01:23:14,186 --> 01:23:18,206
Instead of it saying, we buy used
cars, it says We buy your teeth.

1382
01:23:21,356 --> 01:23:23,636
I mean, it's not easy being poor now, but.

1383
01:23:25,216 --> 01:23:30,161
At least I've never even
contemplated selling my teeth.

1384
01:23:31,001 --> 01:23:36,281
At any rate, George Washington, our first
president, he was the only unelected

1385
01:23:36,281 --> 01:23:39,401
president we've ever had so far.

1386
01:23:41,381 --> 01:23:43,276
He was George and all
the founding fathers.

1387
01:23:44,036 --> 01:23:48,716
Every wary of kings look to the Romans
and, and in specific he looked to

1388
01:23:48,716 --> 01:23:53,336
Cincinnatus Cincinnatus in Roman lore.

1389
01:23:53,336 --> 01:23:54,776
And if you look it up, it's.

1390
01:23:55,196 --> 01:23:59,996
Possibly a little bit exaggerated, but he
was a, a statesman and a military leader,

1391
01:24:00,446 --> 01:24:03,236
and he retired and moved to his farm.

1392
01:24:03,746 --> 01:24:05,636
Then the state needed him
and there was an emergency.

1393
01:24:05,636 --> 01:24:10,706
So he took total power and he
fixed whatever the problem was,

1394
01:24:11,006 --> 01:24:14,606
and then he walked away from power
and went back to his farm, and

1395
01:24:14,606 --> 01:24:15,866
that was considered the ideal.

1396
01:24:16,706 --> 01:24:18,566
That was considered
what a great leader did.

1397
01:24:20,426 --> 01:24:24,296
So Washington walked away
from power after two terms.

1398
01:24:25,136 --> 01:24:27,236
He's often called the
American Cincinnatus.

1399
01:24:28,286 --> 01:24:33,026
So here is an example of where
this bargain over slavery in the

1400
01:24:33,026 --> 01:24:37,706
three-fifths clause affects not
only Congress, but also affects

1401
01:24:38,006 --> 01:24:39,656
the president of the United States.

1402
01:24:40,346 --> 01:24:44,336
If you look at subsequent debates,
if you look at the debate over the

1403
01:24:44,336 --> 01:24:50,066
Missouri compromise, which allows
slavery to spread into Missouri, west

1404
01:24:50,066 --> 01:24:54,416
of the Mississippi, north of where the
Ohio River reaches the Mississippi,

1405
01:24:54,866 --> 01:24:59,756
the Missouri Compromise could not have
been passed if the South had not had a

1406
01:24:59,756 --> 01:25:05,006
significant number of representatives
based on counting slaves as three fifths

1407
01:25:05,216 --> 01:25:07,196
of the population for representation.

1408
01:25:07,571 --> 01:25:12,941
Similarly, it's impossible to imagine
in 1850 that the fugitive slave law

1409
01:25:12,941 --> 01:25:16,781
of 1850 could have been passed if
there had been no three-fifths clause.

1410
01:25:16,991 --> 01:25:18,106
'cause the votes weren't there.

1411
01:25:19,211 --> 01:25:23,771
So what the three-fifths clause does
is to change the political dynamic

1412
01:25:24,191 --> 01:25:29,771
by giving southern whites, slave
holding Southerners greater political

1413
01:25:29,771 --> 01:25:32,711
power than northern voters had.

1414
01:25:33,041 --> 01:25:36,041
And this will continue from
the beginning of the nation,

1415
01:25:36,221 --> 01:25:37,781
right up until the Civil War.

1416
01:25:38,291 --> 01:25:42,671
It is not insignificant that almost
all of the Presidents elected under

1417
01:25:42,671 --> 01:25:47,171
the Constitution before Abraham
Lincoln were Slaveholding Southerners.

1418
01:25:48,161 --> 01:25:52,691
Among the Northerners who become
president, you discover that three of

1419
01:25:52,691 --> 01:25:55,121
them came from slave holding families.

1420
01:25:55,481 --> 01:26:00,851
Martin Van Buren was from New York, but
he had owned slaves in New York before

1421
01:26:00,851 --> 01:26:03,131
New York completely abolished slavery.

1422
01:26:03,281 --> 01:26:09,161
In 1827, William Henry Harrison was
elected from Ohio, but of course the

1423
01:26:09,161 --> 01:26:11,351
Harrisons were Virginia slave owners.

1424
01:26:11,531 --> 01:26:14,651
And William Henry Harrison had
owned slaves for much of his life.

1425
01:26:15,326 --> 01:26:21,056
Finally, oddly, in 1856, James
Buchanan, who is elected president,

1426
01:26:21,386 --> 01:26:25,736
turns out to have come from a family
in Pennsylvania that owned slaves

1427
01:26:25,886 --> 01:26:31,436
and continued to own the descendants
of slaves in long-term indentures.

1428
01:26:31,706 --> 01:26:35,306
Well, after Pennsylvania
had passed the Pennsylvania

1429
01:26:35,306 --> 01:26:37,526
Gradual Abolition Act of 1780.

1430
01:26:37,886 --> 01:26:41,876
So if you look at the
presidency, what you discover is.

1431
01:26:42,311 --> 01:26:48,491
Of the 12 presidents between Washington
and Buchanan, only four of them.

1432
01:26:48,821 --> 01:26:54,941
The two Adams is Fillmore and Pierce
had not either owned slaves or

1433
01:26:54,941 --> 01:26:56,561
come from slave holding families.

1434
01:26:57,326 --> 01:27:03,866
This again indicates the power of
slavery in the political process, which

1435
01:27:03,866 --> 01:27:08,096
comes from the three-fifths clause
in Article one of the Constitution.

1436
01:27:08,355 --> 01:27:11,415
The other big debate at the
Constitutional convention

1437
01:27:11,595 --> 01:27:13,155
concerned the African slave trade.

1438
01:27:13,695 --> 01:27:19,935
Almost everybody in America realized
that the African slave trade was

1439
01:27:20,175 --> 01:27:23,115
horrendously awful and immoral.

1440
01:27:23,505 --> 01:27:26,235
Even people who believed in slavery.

1441
01:27:26,730 --> 01:27:31,710
Even people like Jefferson who would own
slaves all his life, who would buy and

1442
01:27:31,710 --> 01:27:36,660
sell human beings throughout his life, who
would father children with his own slave,

1443
01:27:36,900 --> 01:27:42,630
even some like Jefferson found the African
slave trade to be immoral and wrong.

1444
01:27:43,230 --> 01:27:48,900
On the other hand, Georgia and South
Carolina had lost thousands of slaves

1445
01:27:48,900 --> 01:27:53,220
during the American Revolution, and when
the British troops left the United States.

1446
01:27:53,595 --> 01:27:58,725
Tens of thousands of African Americans
went with them to freedom somewhere

1447
01:27:58,725 --> 01:28:03,615
else, some to Canada, some to England,
some to the British West Indies.

1448
01:28:03,795 --> 01:28:08,625
Sadly, some were enslaved in the
British West Indies, but most

1449
01:28:08,625 --> 01:28:12,255
of these former American slaves
lived their lives with liberty.

1450
01:28:12,885 --> 01:28:18,015
So at the Constitutional convention,
the delegates from Georgia, South

1451
01:28:18,015 --> 01:28:19,545
Carolina and North Carolina.

1452
01:28:20,070 --> 01:28:25,770
Insisted that the African slave trade
get an explicit, specific protection.

1453
01:28:26,490 --> 01:28:31,680
Because these delegates knew that the
Congress would abolish the African

1454
01:28:31,680 --> 01:28:36,240
slave trade immediately because
it was popular and because most

1455
01:28:36,240 --> 01:28:40,410
Americans thought the African slave
trade was just horrible and wrong.

1456
01:28:41,010 --> 01:28:45,840
And thus, the Constitution provides,
and I will read the clause because it's

1457
01:28:45,840 --> 01:28:50,640
such a convoluted clause, and it gives
you an idea of how hard the delegates

1458
01:28:50,640 --> 01:28:52,375
worked to hide what they were doing.

1459
01:28:53,760 --> 01:28:56,940
The Constitution provides an
Article one, section nine.

1460
01:28:57,510 --> 01:29:01,470
The migration or importation of
such persons as any of the states

1461
01:29:01,470 --> 01:29:05,790
now existing shall think proper to
admit, shall not be prohibited by

1462
01:29:05,790 --> 01:29:09,360
the Congress prior to the year 1,808.

1463
01:29:10,440 --> 01:29:13,500
If you read this today, you might
have no idea what they're talking

1464
01:29:13,500 --> 01:29:16,110
about, importations of such persons.

1465
01:29:17,100 --> 01:29:19,140
What the Constitution is saying is.

1466
01:29:19,725 --> 01:29:23,955
The migration and importation clause,
which we refer to as the African

1467
01:29:23,955 --> 01:29:28,335
slave trade clause, provided that
Congress could not end the African

1468
01:29:28,335 --> 01:29:30,795
slave trade until at least 1808.

1469
01:29:31,455 --> 01:29:36,405
However, the clause did not require that
the African slave trade be ended in 1808.

1470
01:29:37,260 --> 01:29:42,510
Sadly, many historians, some political
scientists and legal scholars don't

1471
01:29:42,510 --> 01:29:47,610
understand this and often write in
textbooks that the clause required

1472
01:29:47,610 --> 01:29:49,260
an end to the African slave trade.

1473
01:29:49,260 --> 01:29:50,070
It did not.

1474
01:29:50,520 --> 01:29:53,280
It says it cannot be ended before 1808.

1475
01:29:54,900 --> 01:30:00,150
The Deep South delegates, the South
Carolinians, the Georgians, they believed

1476
01:30:00,510 --> 01:30:04,830
that by 1808, the Deep South would have
a bigger population than the North.

1477
01:30:05,160 --> 01:30:09,870
They believed that this American
population was moving south and west,

1478
01:30:10,350 --> 01:30:15,000
and thus states like Alabama and
Mississippi would've been brought

1479
01:30:15,000 --> 01:30:20,520
into the union by 1808, and the South
would have essentially a veto power

1480
01:30:20,760 --> 01:30:22,410
over a ban on the African slave trade.

1481
01:30:23,250 --> 01:30:24,630
Luckily, it didn't work out that way.

1482
01:30:24,990 --> 01:30:29,160
Luckily, Ohio came into the union,
but Alabama and Mississippi did not.

1483
01:30:29,550 --> 01:30:34,350
Luckily, by 1808, the northern
population was substantially larger

1484
01:30:34,350 --> 01:30:38,790
than the southern population, and so
we could ban the slave trade in 1808.

1485
01:30:39,510 --> 01:30:40,860
What happened in the meantime?

1486
01:30:41,370 --> 01:30:43,830
At least 60,000 slaves.

1487
01:30:44,385 --> 01:30:47,715
Are brought into the United
States between 1803 and 1808.

1488
01:30:48,105 --> 01:30:54,045
This is the largest importation of
slaves into what became the United States

1489
01:30:54,315 --> 01:30:56,325
in the entire history of the country.

1490
01:30:56,505 --> 01:31:00,915
From the colonial period to
1803, you never had 60,000

1491
01:31:00,915 --> 01:31:02,565
slaves brought in in five years.

1492
01:31:02,745 --> 01:31:07,065
And then from 1803 to 1808,
you got at least 60,000 slaves.

1493
01:31:07,455 --> 01:31:10,090
So this is the debate
over the slave trade.

1494
01:31:12,300 --> 01:31:16,920
Towards the end of the convention,
southerners demanded a clause to

1495
01:31:16,920 --> 01:31:22,650
allow them to recover runaway slaves
and northerners without any great

1496
01:31:22,650 --> 01:31:27,750
debate, without very much thought,
seemed to be worn out by these

1497
01:31:27,750 --> 01:31:29,460
constant debates over slavery.

1498
01:31:29,460 --> 01:31:34,710
And they're so worn out that they allow
for the fugitive slave clause to be

1499
01:31:34,710 --> 01:31:39,420
inserted into the constitution, like
the clause on the African slave trade.

1500
01:31:39,780 --> 01:31:42,930
The fugitive slave clause
is almost impossible to

1501
01:31:42,930 --> 01:31:45,870
understand and is convoluted.

1502
01:31:46,410 --> 01:31:47,490
The clause read.

1503
01:31:47,895 --> 01:31:53,025
No person held to service or labor in
one state under the laws thereof escaping

1504
01:31:53,025 --> 01:31:58,425
into another shall in consequence of any
law or regulation therein be discharged

1505
01:31:58,425 --> 01:32:02,865
from such service or labor, but shall
be delivered up on claim of the party to

1506
01:32:02,865 --> 01:32:05,235
whom such service or labor may be due.

1507
01:32:05,535 --> 01:32:09,675
This is Article four, section two,
paragraph three of the Constitution.

1508
01:32:10,395 --> 01:32:11,835
Doesn't mention the word slave.

1509
01:32:12,045 --> 01:32:15,285
Doesn't mention the word
fugitive, but the impact is clear.

1510
01:32:16,155 --> 01:32:21,285
If a slave runs away from Virginia
to Pennsylvania, he cannot become

1511
01:32:21,285 --> 01:32:23,145
free under Pennsylvania law.

1512
01:32:23,565 --> 01:32:30,015
If a slave runs from Kentucky into
Ohio, she does not become free under

1513
01:32:30,015 --> 01:32:36,615
Ohio Law, rather Ohio or Pennsylvania,
or obligated to return this upon

1514
01:32:36,615 --> 01:32:41,955
the claim of the person to whom such
service or labor may be due and.

1515
01:32:43,905 --> 01:32:44,715
Of course.

1516
01:32:44,775 --> 01:32:46,335
How do you prove that claim?

1517
01:32:46,545 --> 01:32:48,705
How do you prove you own someone else?

1518
01:32:49,215 --> 01:32:54,075
In 1793, Congress passes the
first fugitive slave law, which

1519
01:32:54,075 --> 01:32:58,455
has almost no protections for
people claimed as fugitive slaves.

1520
01:32:58,905 --> 01:33:05,295
But it doesn't work very well, in part
because many northerners simply don't

1521
01:33:05,295 --> 01:33:08,325
help Southerners capture runaway slaves.

1522
01:33:09,480 --> 01:33:13,740
In 1842, the Supreme Court will hear
its first case on the fugitive slave.

1523
01:33:13,770 --> 01:33:18,120
That's remarkable that the laws passed
in 1793, and there's no case that

1524
01:33:18,120 --> 01:33:20,340
reaches the Supreme Court before 1842.

1525
01:33:20,910 --> 01:33:24,660
But in a case called Privy,
Pennsylvania, the court holds

1526
01:33:24,960 --> 01:33:28,290
that no state can interfere in
the return of a fugitive slave.

1527
01:33:28,995 --> 01:33:34,455
That Congress has the constitutional
power to pass the fugitive slave law.

1528
01:33:34,755 --> 01:33:37,515
Although there were many people who
thought Congress did not have this

1529
01:33:37,515 --> 01:33:42,525
power, they thought that this was a
regulation of state to state relations.

1530
01:33:43,095 --> 01:33:47,205
And furthermore, the court
ruled that a master had a right

1531
01:33:47,205 --> 01:33:50,205
to seize a slave anywhere.

1532
01:33:50,205 --> 01:33:53,715
The slave was found without
any judicial process.

1533
01:33:54,615 --> 01:33:58,965
A slave catcher could simply grab
someone, say, this is my slave.

1534
01:33:59,205 --> 01:34:04,545
I'm taking him or her back to
my state, and the free state

1535
01:34:04,545 --> 01:34:05,955
had no right to interfere.

1536
01:34:06,855 --> 01:34:11,850
Now, what this led to was a remarkable
response by Northern States.

1537
01:34:12,930 --> 01:34:17,850
Northern States immediately passed
laws prohibiting their state

1538
01:34:17,850 --> 01:34:22,140
officials from helping in the return
of fugitive slaves prohibiting the

1539
01:34:22,140 --> 01:34:24,990
use of jails for fugitive slaves.

1540
01:34:25,410 --> 01:34:30,510
Well, it was one thing to cross from
Maryland into Pennsylvania, grab

1541
01:34:30,510 --> 01:34:34,530
your fugitive slave and go back to
Pennsylvania, that you could do in

1542
01:34:34,530 --> 01:34:38,745
an afternoon quite another to go up
to New York or even to Philadelphia.

1543
01:34:39,450 --> 01:34:43,740
Or to Ohio and grab a fugitive
slave and try to bring that slave

1544
01:34:43,740 --> 01:34:45,060
all the way back to the south.

1545
01:34:45,330 --> 01:34:51,060
You can't do it easily, and you can't do
it without the help of local officials.

1546
01:34:52,145 --> 01:34:56,555
I guess the other answer would be,
sorry, I like my hypotheticals is

1547
01:34:56,555 --> 01:35:01,445
let's say you turn the offer down
now, maybe the people negotiating

1548
01:35:01,445 --> 01:35:05,465
on the northern side didn't have the
moral and ideological prerequisites

1549
01:35:05,465 --> 01:35:09,815
to see slavery as a great enough evil
that you would turn the offer down.

1550
01:35:10,475 --> 01:35:14,225
But let's say you do, I guess the
counterargument to sort of our

1551
01:35:14,555 --> 01:35:18,785
modern morality of saying, well,
slavery is just this greater evil

1552
01:35:19,085 --> 01:35:21,185
would be then what would happen?

1553
01:35:21,185 --> 01:35:26,435
You'd have sort of two United
States emerging, and the north

1554
01:35:26,465 --> 01:35:30,935
would sort of be what, in a race
out west with the other one.

1555
01:35:31,145 --> 01:35:34,865
What on earth would foreign
policy look like with that regime?

1556
01:35:35,105 --> 01:35:37,895
Would you try and prevent
their import of slaves?

1557
01:35:38,195 --> 01:35:38,975
I have no idea.

1558
01:35:38,975 --> 01:35:42,155
But you can, you can imagine it going
wrong and you ending up with something

1559
01:35:42,155 --> 01:35:45,065
a bit like the Civil War anyway.

1560
01:35:45,395 --> 01:35:45,815
Right?

1561
01:35:45,905 --> 01:35:46,325
I dunno

1562
01:35:46,925 --> 01:35:50,645
that that's a hypothetical that
is certainly possible to imagine.

1563
01:35:50,645 --> 01:35:54,905
I mean, the way to think about it is
this, in the actual historical period

1564
01:35:54,905 --> 01:36:00,935
of the first half of the 19th century in
the US as, um, cotton growing, expanded

1565
01:36:00,935 --> 01:36:04,835
westward in the southern part of the
United States to newly acquired territory.

1566
01:36:06,050 --> 01:36:12,470
It was economically efficient with the use
of slaves to grow cotton as a cash crop.

1567
01:36:12,470 --> 01:36:16,580
But in those places where cotton was
being grown, you were not growing,

1568
01:36:17,210 --> 01:36:24,110
um, you were not growing food to feed
you, nor were you growing livestock.

1569
01:36:24,740 --> 01:36:30,800
That stuff ended up being cultivated
and raised further north in the, um,

1570
01:36:31,370 --> 01:36:35,360
current, uh, near Midwest, what was
called at the time, the Old Northwest,

1571
01:36:35,480 --> 01:36:38,690
and which happened to correspond to the
places where Lincoln was raised, uh,

1572
01:36:38,690 --> 01:36:42,290
Western Kentucky, Indiana, Illinois.

1573
01:36:43,070 --> 01:36:46,220
And what happened is that the
produce and livestock raised there.

1574
01:36:46,220 --> 01:36:49,580
It was then brought down river,
down the Mississippi River, which

1575
01:36:49,580 --> 01:36:54,140
just coincidentally happens to, you
know, flow because of gravity South

1576
01:36:55,070 --> 01:36:59,300
on these flat boats that require
no power other than the power of

1577
01:36:59,300 --> 01:37:04,340
the current and sold to the south.

1578
01:37:05,495 --> 01:37:09,815
So the expansion westward in both the
southern part of the United States and

1579
01:37:09,815 --> 01:37:13,955
in the middle part of the United States
was driven by this expansion of the

1580
01:37:13,955 --> 01:37:16,205
cotton crop and the expansion of slavery.

1581
01:37:16,205 --> 01:37:20,135
And that was a unified economy
in which all parts of the

1582
01:37:20,135 --> 01:37:21,395
country were participating.

1583
01:37:21,905 --> 01:37:27,245
Had there not been a single nation, then
that would still have been possible.

1584
01:37:27,635 --> 01:37:30,995
You know, tariffs might have stood in
the way, internal tariffs might have

1585
01:37:30,995 --> 01:37:34,115
stood in the way of that kind of trade
and made the advancement, pursue,

1586
01:37:34,145 --> 01:37:37,925
proceed, uh, proceed more slowly, but
almost certainly it would've proceeded.

1587
01:37:38,375 --> 01:37:42,815
And then that also leads to the question
of, you know, American expansion across

1588
01:37:42,815 --> 01:37:46,745
the continent, eventually to California.

1589
01:37:47,105 --> 01:37:52,415
And that too is a process that was
sped up by the fact that the United

1590
01:37:52,415 --> 01:37:54,905
States was a single, unified nation.

1591
01:37:54,905 --> 01:38:01,475
It meant that the conquest, or if you
preferred a genocide of Native Americans.

1592
01:38:02,060 --> 01:38:05,480
Was more efficient because they were
US Army troops to stand behind it.

1593
01:38:05,660 --> 01:38:10,460
It meant that the Mexican American
war in which the US participated

1594
01:38:10,460 --> 01:38:14,510
in a pretty aggressive war against
Mexico, that took large parts of, uh,

1595
01:38:14,510 --> 01:38:17,540
what had been Mexico for the United
States, would also have been much

1596
01:38:17,540 --> 01:38:21,230
harder to, to pull off again, because
you wouldn't have had unified nation.

1597
01:38:21,710 --> 01:38:25,400
There are a range of ways that you could
imagine that expansion across the west

1598
01:38:25,400 --> 01:38:30,620
would've been slower, and that means that
the decimation or destruction of Native

1599
01:38:30,620 --> 01:38:33,860
American cultures might also have happened
more slowly or in a different pattern.

1600
01:38:34,100 --> 01:38:37,790
The way say, uh, it happened
in, in Canada where the pro the

1601
01:38:37,790 --> 01:38:38,960
process was a different one.

1602
01:38:39,230 --> 01:38:42,650
So you could imagine the trajectory
being a little bit different.

1603
01:38:42,890 --> 01:38:46,400
You'd have to be a pretty strong
determinist to say, you know,

1604
01:38:46,400 --> 01:38:49,220
white, mostly English speaking
people of European descent were

1605
01:38:49,220 --> 01:38:52,820
destined to conquer the entirety of.

1606
01:38:53,405 --> 01:38:55,985
Continent and that was going to
happen whether they were unified

1607
01:38:55,985 --> 01:38:57,425
into a single country or not.

1608
01:38:58,025 --> 01:39:01,655
And that's not something you could
ascribe to the model reasoning

1609
01:39:01,655 --> 01:39:03,245
of the people at the time.

1610
01:39:03,275 --> 01:39:08,375
Like even if we inject them with mo
modern morality, they still couldn't

1611
01:39:08,375 --> 01:39:10,475
possibly have foresee all of that.

1612
01:39:10,955 --> 01:39:11,135
Um,

1613
01:39:11,165 --> 01:39:12,605
well, yes and yes and no.

1614
01:39:12,605 --> 01:39:15,965
I mean, to, to be, they
were very ambitious.

1615
01:39:16,145 --> 01:39:16,235
Mm-hmm.

1616
01:39:16,445 --> 01:39:20,765
And the idea of westward
expansion was clearly in their

1617
01:39:20,765 --> 01:39:21,965
minds and in their practices.

1618
01:39:21,965 --> 01:39:24,665
I mean, George Washington, I mentioned
he never made much money from his

1619
01:39:24,665 --> 01:39:28,475
plantation, but he did make substantial
money, all of it in land speculation.

1620
01:39:28,625 --> 01:39:28,775
Mm-hmm.

1621
01:39:28,835 --> 01:39:35,225
And the structure was to go
west, take land, settle it, uh,

1622
01:39:35,315 --> 01:39:38,735
and as it were, colonize it, and
then it would go up in value.

1623
01:39:39,185 --> 01:39:42,815
And so they knew that they could do
that in the Ohio Valley, for example,

1624
01:39:42,815 --> 01:39:46,475
the Ohio River Valley, and they aspired
to do it as far as they could do.

1625
01:39:46,775 --> 01:39:46,865
Hmm.

1626
01:39:46,925 --> 01:39:50,495
And when, you know, as President
Thomas Jefferson sent the

1627
01:39:50,495 --> 01:39:51,935
Lewis and Clark Expedition.

1628
01:39:52,415 --> 01:39:56,555
You know, out west, across the continent,
the stated objective was to see how far

1629
01:39:56,555 --> 01:40:01,235
they could go and what roots they could
find, especially water roots, to get them

1630
01:40:01,235 --> 01:40:06,335
to the Pacific, again, with the intent
of eventual expansion and, and conquest.

1631
01:40:06,335 --> 01:40:08,015
And that's already in
the early 19th century.

1632
01:40:08,465 --> 01:40:11,255
So they, they knew the
direction they were going.

1633
01:40:11,765 --> 01:40:16,355
They just couldn't have aspired
realistically in the 1780s to actually

1634
01:40:16,355 --> 01:40:17,765
conquering the whole continent.

1635
01:40:18,095 --> 01:40:23,675
But once Napoleon had sold a rite of
expansion, you know, in the early,

1636
01:40:23,675 --> 01:40:27,035
again, in the early 19th century to
the United States, it was possible

1637
01:40:27,035 --> 01:40:31,595
to imagine that kind of broad
continental expansion happening.

1638
01:40:31,595 --> 01:40:33,995
It took a long time for it to
happen, although in historic

1639
01:40:33,995 --> 01:40:35,045
terms, not all that long.

1640
01:40:35,285 --> 01:40:37,565
But it took a fair, it took
generations for it to happen.

1641
01:40:37,745 --> 01:40:39,665
But yeah, the aspiration I
think they could have had,

1642
01:40:39,665 --> 01:40:40,895
and many actually did have it.

1643
01:40:41,705 --> 01:40:45,485
None of this is super edifying
for the American founders.

1644
01:40:45,485 --> 01:40:50,015
Is it like we have to cut this
deal with people who would.

1645
01:40:50,555 --> 01:40:55,050
Doing something we regard as very
immoral, perhaps not quite as immoral

1646
01:40:55,070 --> 01:40:57,635
as contemporary people would, but still.

1647
01:40:58,175 --> 01:41:03,725
Um, but we have to cut it for the
noble reason of, well, not quite

1648
01:41:03,725 --> 01:41:06,575
the liberty and justice for all
thing, although that's there.

1649
01:41:06,785 --> 01:41:12,035
But because we have to conquer a continent
and keep on expanding westwoods and making

1650
01:41:12,035 --> 01:41:18,875
money and too bad for whoever happens to
be there, none of this, it's hard to put a

1651
01:41:18,875 --> 01:41:21,425
positive top spin on that thought process.

1652
01:41:23,465 --> 01:41:23,945
Yes.

1653
01:41:23,945 --> 01:41:26,225
I mean I think these
were, these were humans.

1654
01:41:26,225 --> 01:41:28,175
They were self-interested in many ways.

1655
01:41:28,535 --> 01:41:31,625
Now to an audience that is
interested in political philosophy,

1656
01:41:31,625 --> 01:41:34,985
it's important to point out that
they had political, philosophical

1657
01:41:34,985 --> 01:41:36,695
justifications, nevertheless.

1658
01:41:37,175 --> 01:41:37,475
Right?

1659
01:41:37,475 --> 01:41:41,255
One was, and this was the crucial idea,
driving the constitutional convention.

1660
01:41:41,910 --> 01:41:45,995
The, the state said, declared
independence from Britain had survived

1661
01:41:45,995 --> 01:41:49,625
the Revolutionary War sticking together
simply 'cause they had no other choice.

1662
01:41:49,625 --> 01:41:52,655
You know that line, we must
all hang together, assuredly

1663
01:41:52,655 --> 01:41:53,885
we shall all hang separately.

1664
01:41:54,635 --> 01:41:59,015
And then with the war completed,
there was a real worry.

1665
01:41:59,015 --> 01:42:03,635
Madison and others were very concerned
that there was insufficient common

1666
01:42:03,635 --> 01:42:05,435
interest to hold them together.

1667
01:42:05,825 --> 01:42:08,615
And here's the punchline where
the political philosophy comes in.

1668
01:42:09,095 --> 01:42:14,495
They feared that if they didn't hold
together as a single country, that their

1669
01:42:14,495 --> 01:42:17,045
experiment in Republican self-government.

1670
01:42:17,870 --> 01:42:18,470
Would fail.

1671
01:42:19,550 --> 01:42:23,390
And so, you know, if you were in
Philadelphia in 1787 and you asked

1672
01:42:23,540 --> 01:42:26,300
Madison and others, you know, why
is it so important to stay together?

1673
01:42:26,480 --> 01:42:30,440
They didn't just say, well, to expand
and to do well, I mean, they had those

1674
01:42:30,440 --> 01:42:34,160
interests for sure, and they were
willing to sometimes articulate them.

1675
01:42:34,160 --> 01:42:39,230
But their first answer would've been,
we are engaged in an acal experiment

1676
01:42:39,230 --> 01:42:44,870
in whether human beings can live
together in Federation of Republics.

1677
01:42:44,990 --> 01:42:45,110
Hmm.

1678
01:42:45,200 --> 01:42:48,440
And they knew that the history of
republics wasn't great, and the

1679
01:42:48,440 --> 01:42:52,400
history of Federal Republics was
especially not very, uh, promising.

1680
01:42:52,760 --> 01:42:59,570
And they wanted to achieve the historic
transformative victory of winning a,

1681
01:42:59,570 --> 01:43:03,470
winning the fight for Republicanism
and in their minds against Monarchists.

1682
01:43:03,710 --> 01:43:03,860
Hmm.

1683
01:43:04,580 --> 01:43:09,170
Now Hamilton and perhaps a few other
of the framers, like a man called

1684
01:43:09,170 --> 01:43:12,560
James Wilson and on his best day,
his worst days, George Washington.

1685
01:43:13,115 --> 01:43:16,925
Did sort of think that monarchy
was the only way and they wanted

1686
01:43:16,925 --> 01:43:19,355
the president of the United States
to be a kind of elected monarch.

1687
01:43:19,595 --> 01:43:19,805
Mm-hmm.

1688
01:43:19,925 --> 01:43:24,395
But that was not something they said very
explicitly because after all, a revolution

1689
01:43:24,395 --> 01:43:26,945
had just been fought against monarchy.

1690
01:43:27,425 --> 01:43:29,855
Um, I mean, it was really against
parliamentary, parliamentary

1691
01:43:29,855 --> 01:43:31,235
sovereignty and supremacy.

1692
01:43:31,235 --> 01:43:34,535
But they had at some point started saying
that it was a revolution against monarchy.

1693
01:43:34,745 --> 01:43:40,085
And so they were trying to justify
in political, theoretical terms, the

1694
01:43:40,085 --> 01:43:42,575
normative validity of that project.

1695
01:43:42,575 --> 01:43:44,315
So we shouldn't, we shouldn't forget that.

1696
01:43:44,315 --> 01:43:47,525
And the truth is, if all they
had done was contribute to the

1697
01:43:47,525 --> 01:43:51,875
building of, you know, an empire,
an American empire, they wouldn't be

1698
01:43:51,875 --> 01:43:53,435
venerated in the way that they are.

1699
01:43:53,465 --> 01:43:58,445
The veneration comes from the fact
that they had a very sophisticated,

1700
01:43:58,445 --> 01:43:59,885
if you will, political spin.

1701
01:43:59,885 --> 01:44:01,055
Political theoretical spin.

1702
01:44:01,385 --> 01:44:06,185
Namely, let's prove that you can
have what became the United States.

1703
01:44:06,185 --> 01:44:09,095
Let's prove you can have Brazil,
let's prove you can have India, you

1704
01:44:09,095 --> 01:44:10,745
know, large federal democracies.

1705
01:44:11,615 --> 01:44:13,325
Functioning under Republican conditions,

1706
01:44:13,795 --> 01:44:20,455
On August 14th, 1862, Abraham
Lincoln invites five free black men

1707
01:44:20,575 --> 01:44:21,985
to the White House for a meeting.

1708
01:44:23,875 --> 01:44:27,295
They are part of the black elite
in Washington DC, and he wants

1709
01:44:27,295 --> 01:44:28,795
to have a conversation with them.

1710
01:44:31,915 --> 01:44:36,715
The Civil War has been going on for about
a year, and Abraham Lincoln is worried.

1711
01:44:36,775 --> 01:44:40,195
Because the war is not going
well and because it's not going

1712
01:44:40,195 --> 01:44:43,225
well, he's feeling like he might
have to do something drastic.

1713
01:44:44,305 --> 01:44:49,225
He's considering taking this very radical
step of liberating all of the enslaved

1714
01:44:49,225 --> 01:44:54,145
people who are in the Confederate states,
and he's thinking about doing this as a

1715
01:44:54,145 --> 01:44:59,515
war tactic, understanding that if he takes
away the South's labor force, that might

1716
01:44:59,635 --> 01:45:04,105
cripple them, or at least the threat of it
would force them to remain in the union.

1717
01:45:05,170 --> 01:45:09,055
But he is also concerned about what
it might mean to suddenly free 4

1718
01:45:09,055 --> 01:45:12,820
million enslaved people and what
the consequences of that might be.

1719
01:45:17,650 --> 01:45:20,590
I can imagine these five
distinguished men are very excited

1720
01:45:20,590 --> 01:45:22,120
to get Lincoln's invitation.

1721
01:45:22,180 --> 01:45:23,650
They are abolitionists.

1722
01:45:23,650 --> 01:45:28,480
They have been pressuring Lincoln
to abolish slavery, but when they

1723
01:45:28,480 --> 01:45:32,500
get there, they are greeted by
President Lincoln and another man.

1724
01:45:33,055 --> 01:45:34,525
His name is James Mitchell.

1725
01:45:35,155 --> 01:45:36,655
Now James Mitchell is a new employee.

1726
01:45:36,685 --> 01:45:41,185
He's only been at the White House
for a couple of days, and his

1727
01:45:41,185 --> 01:45:44,845
job is a new job and it's called
Commissioner of Immigration.

1728
01:45:45,145 --> 01:45:49,075
Now that's immigration with a e,
meaning his job was not to help

1729
01:45:49,075 --> 01:45:52,975
people to enter the country,
but to help people to exit it.

1730
01:45:56,605 --> 01:45:59,845
Lincoln doesn't waste any time,
according to documents that

1731
01:45:59,845 --> 01:46:01,375
recount what happened that day.

1732
01:46:02,905 --> 01:46:08,185
He tells the men that he had gotten funds
from Congress to ship black people once

1733
01:46:08,185 --> 01:46:11,035
they had been freed to some other country.

1734
01:46:12,805 --> 01:46:17,725
And then Lincoln said, you and we are
different races, your race suffer very

1735
01:46:17,725 --> 01:46:22,735
greatly, many of them by living amongst
us while ours suffer from your presence.

1736
01:46:23,575 --> 01:46:26,905
In a word he said, we suffer on each side.

1737
01:46:32,845 --> 01:46:38,275
We are taught to think of Abraham Lincoln
as the great Emancipator, and he was, but

1738
01:46:38,275 --> 01:46:42,775
the truth is, like many white Americans,
he was opposed to slavery because it

1739
01:46:42,775 --> 01:46:46,935
was a. Cruel and unjust institution
in opposition to this nation's ideals.

1740
01:46:48,015 --> 01:46:51,555
But he was also opposed to black
political and social equality.

1741
01:46:52,455 --> 01:46:57,315
As he said in a speech that he gave
in 1853, he considered black people a

1742
01:46:57,315 --> 01:47:01,785
quote, troublesome presence and that
they were incompatible with a democracy

1743
01:47:01,815 --> 01:47:03,195
that was designed for white people.

1744
01:47:04,035 --> 01:47:08,655
As he said in that speech, free them
and make them politically and socially.

1745
01:47:08,655 --> 01:47:12,225
Our equals my own feelings
will not admit of this.

1746
01:47:12,685 --> 01:47:16,105
And if mine would, we well
know that those of the great

1747
01:47:16,105 --> 01:47:18,205
mass of white people will not.

1748
01:47:24,475 --> 01:47:28,555
As those five black men stood
in the White House, I wonder

1749
01:47:29,065 --> 01:47:30,295
what it must have felt like

1750
01:47:32,335 --> 01:47:35,275
these men had been fighting for
the liberations of millions.

1751
01:47:35,950 --> 01:47:41,020
And had waited for this moment only to
be told that once they were granted their

1752
01:47:41,020 --> 01:47:44,380
freedom, they were going to be asked
to leave the country of their birth.

1753
01:47:46,720 --> 01:47:52,480
And to make it even worse, Lincoln then
tells them that it's their fault that the

1754
01:47:52,480 --> 01:47:54,460
country is fighting a civil war at all.

1755
01:47:55,210 --> 01:47:58,600
He says, although many men
engaged on either side do not

1756
01:47:58,600 --> 01:48:00,550
care for you one way or the other.

1757
01:48:01,105 --> 01:48:04,675
Without the institution of slavery
and the colored race as a basis,

1758
01:48:04,915 --> 01:48:06,895
the war could not have in existence.

1759
01:48:07,945 --> 01:48:14,785
That's why the president said it is better
for us both, therefore, to be separated.

1760
01:48:17,965 --> 01:48:20,995
So Lincoln ends the meeting and one
of the men tells him that they will

1761
01:48:20,995 --> 01:48:23,005
go back and consider his proposal.

1762
01:48:23,905 --> 01:48:26,755
Lincoln then tells them,
take your full time.

1763
01:48:27,130 --> 01:48:28,600
No hurry at all.

1764
01:48:33,040 --> 01:48:37,780
After that meeting, those men made it
clear that they were not interested

1765
01:48:37,780 --> 01:48:41,440
in taking Lincoln up on his offer
to leave the country of their birth.

1766
01:48:43,030 --> 01:48:46,870
There's a quote by a different group of
black abolitionists that really sums up

1767
01:48:46,870 --> 01:48:51,935
the way that most black Americans felt,
and that quote said, this is our home.

1768
01:48:52,480 --> 01:48:55,330
And this is our country beneath its side.

1769
01:48:55,330 --> 01:49:00,880
Lay the bones of our fathers here
we were born, and here we will die

1770
01:49:06,460 --> 01:49:09,640
after everything that black Americans
have been through in this country

1771
01:49:10,030 --> 01:49:14,830
that they didn't immediately take
up Lincoln's offer and go somewhere

1772
01:49:14,830 --> 01:49:19,060
else and start over is really an
astounding testimony to their belief.

1773
01:49:19,440 --> 01:49:25,320
In the American ideals by
choosing to stay Black people

1774
01:49:25,320 --> 01:49:27,510
were saying, this is our country.

1775
01:49:28,020 --> 01:49:31,950
We are American, and we are
actually going to work to make

1776
01:49:31,950 --> 01:49:33,810
these founding ideals a reality.

1777
01:49:43,825 --> 01:49:47,755
And in the years that followed after
the Civil War ends, a very short

1778
01:49:47,755 --> 01:49:50,185
period called Reconstruction began.

1779
01:49:58,765 --> 01:50:03,775
And so you see the formerly enslaved
pushing their white allies in Congress to

1780
01:50:03,775 --> 01:50:05,755
start to change our founding documents.

1781
01:50:06,480 --> 01:50:09,930
And to actually resolve those
contradictions that were baked in.

1782
01:50:10,950 --> 01:50:14,760
They do this through getting amendments
passed, and of course, amendments are

1783
01:50:14,760 --> 01:50:17,490
the way that we change our constitution.

1784
01:50:20,065 --> 01:50:23,125
So, of course the very first
amendment that they have to pass

1785
01:50:23,155 --> 01:50:27,205
is the 13th Amendment, which
abolishes the institution of slavery.

1786
01:50:28,135 --> 01:50:31,495
And what's interesting about that
is this is actually the first time

1787
01:50:31,495 --> 01:50:34,675
that the word slavery is mentioned
in the Constitution, is in the

1788
01:50:34,675 --> 01:50:37,105
amendment that finally abolishes it.

1789
01:50:38,875 --> 01:50:42,265
They pass the 14th Amendment and
the 14th Amendment guarantees that.

1790
01:50:42,420 --> 01:50:46,890
All of the enslaved people will finally
be citizens of the country of their birth.

1791
01:50:47,850 --> 01:50:52,260
It also ensures for the first time
that the laws cannot treat people

1792
01:50:52,260 --> 01:50:53,820
differently based on their race.

1793
01:50:53,820 --> 01:50:58,140
This is called the Equal protection
Clause, and this clause will be used

1794
01:50:58,320 --> 01:51:02,280
again and again, really all the way
up until now to guarantee that all

1795
01:51:02,280 --> 01:51:04,500
Americans are treated as equal citizens.

1796
01:51:06,675 --> 01:51:11,205
And finally they passed the 15th
Amendment, which probably is the most

1797
01:51:11,205 --> 01:51:14,775
important amendment when we're considering
what a democracy is supposed to be.

1798
01:51:15,615 --> 01:51:20,415
The 15th amendment guaranteed the right
to vote no matter what your race is.

1799
01:51:21,195 --> 01:51:25,335
Now, it didn't include women at that
time, but it certainly set the stage

1800
01:51:25,575 --> 01:51:29,685
and it for the first time, guaranteed
that whether you were born a person who

1801
01:51:29,685 --> 01:51:33,135
was enslaved, whether you're white or
you were black, you had the right to.

1802
01:51:33,215 --> 01:51:35,315
Exercise your vote in this democracy.

1803
01:51:52,855 --> 01:51:56,755
The only reason we saw all of these
gains in the south was because there

1804
01:51:56,755 --> 01:52:00,055
were federal troops there, and those
federal troops were holding back the

1805
01:52:00,055 --> 01:52:04,435
violence of white southerners who were
not interested in seeing these gains.

1806
01:52:05,275 --> 01:52:09,205
This all changes with the
presidential election of 1876.

1807
01:52:10,675 --> 01:52:12,475
It was a contested election.

1808
01:52:12,745 --> 01:52:16,015
And Rutherford b Hayes is
the Republican candidate.

1809
01:52:16,345 --> 01:52:20,365
And remember back then it was
Republicans who were the progressive

1810
01:52:20,365 --> 01:52:23,605
party, and they were the party of
Lincoln that was working to pass

1811
01:52:23,635 --> 01:52:25,345
all of this progressive legislation.

1812
01:52:26,755 --> 01:52:29,725
But Rutherford b Hayes really
wants to win this election.

1813
01:52:29,875 --> 01:52:34,225
And so he makes a deal with the
Democrats in Congress that if they

1814
01:52:34,225 --> 01:52:35,965
give him their electoral votes.

1815
01:52:36,610 --> 01:52:40,510
He will withdraw the federal troops
from the south and end reconstruction.

1816
01:52:42,160 --> 01:52:48,430
So he makes the deal and the troops
leave, and we immediately see white

1817
01:52:48,430 --> 01:52:53,560
Southerners implement a campaign to force
black people back into the position that

1818
01:52:53,560 --> 01:52:55,510
they had been in before reconstruction.

1819
01:53:00,250 --> 01:53:04,750
The suppression of black life over the
next five decades would be so devastating.

1820
01:53:05,785 --> 01:53:07,435
That it would come to be
known as the Great Nadir.

1821
01:53:09,145 --> 01:53:10,285
The second slavery

1822
01:53:21,255 --> 01:53:24,664
One thing that struck me about
the book too was that I got the

1823
01:53:24,664 --> 01:53:27,855
impression that the Constitution
itself really means a lot to you.

1824
01:53:28,427 --> 01:53:31,018
You've obviously spent a lot of time
thinking about the constitution.

1825
01:53:31,618 --> 01:53:34,073
Also how others think about
the Constitution, like you just

1826
01:53:34,073 --> 01:53:37,373
mentioned, the book even includes
the Text of the Constitution.

1827
01:53:38,191 --> 01:53:41,109
Why don't we start out by just,
then you just mention what the

1828
01:53:41,109 --> 01:53:42,773
Constitution actually does mean to you.

1829
01:53:44,000 --> 01:53:44,164
Okay.

1830
01:53:44,164 --> 01:53:47,436
Well, there's three things I
think to say about that, if I may.

1831
01:53:47,436 --> 01:53:53,300
The first is the Constitution was
forged both in the original and in

1832
01:53:53,300 --> 01:53:58,155
the post Civil War amendments by
truly amazing people who thought.

1833
01:53:58,523 --> 01:54:04,523
Deeply and widely about freedom
and self-government and the most

1834
01:54:04,523 --> 01:54:07,632
fundamental things, at least
with respect to political life.

1835
01:54:08,068 --> 01:54:13,468
So to see this as a spectacular
historical achievement is right.

1836
01:54:13,850 --> 01:54:18,950
Also to feel as an American,
that you get to benefit from the

1837
01:54:19,332 --> 01:54:22,032
amazingness of what they did is right.

1838
01:54:22,577 --> 01:54:26,641
And to think of the Constitution
with strong emotions.

1839
01:54:27,186 --> 01:54:30,786
The more you understand the founding
and the Civil War amendments, I

1840
01:54:30,786 --> 01:54:32,614
think the more that just happens.

1841
01:54:33,023 --> 01:54:35,450
And so that's the first
and the most fundamental.

1842
01:54:35,886 --> 01:54:40,932
The second thing I'd say is I follow my
former boss, justice Thurgood Marshall,

1843
01:54:41,446 --> 01:54:48,023
in celebrating the arc of constitutional
history in addition to the post Civil

1844
01:54:48,023 --> 01:54:49,305
War amendments and the founding.

1845
01:54:49,700 --> 01:54:56,327
So to see the Constitution as not just
being something from those two periods,

1846
01:54:56,327 --> 01:55:03,718
but something that includes the 1920s,
1930s and the 1890s and the 1970s and

1847
01:55:04,100 --> 01:55:09,336
the last 20 years is a way of honoring,
I think, the best understanding of

1848
01:55:09,336 --> 01:55:10,918
what the founders were actually doing.

1849
01:55:11,436 --> 01:55:14,082
They weren't saying, we have
it figured out for all time.

1850
01:55:14,436 --> 01:55:15,146
Follow us posterity.

1851
01:55:16,250 --> 01:55:17,614
More complicated than that.

1852
01:55:17,614 --> 01:55:22,632
So to celebrate Marshall and Ruth
Bader Ginsburg and William Renquist

1853
01:55:22,741 --> 01:55:27,023
and Martin Luther King, Malcolm X
two, I think that's That's right.

1854
01:55:27,541 --> 01:55:33,568
The third thing I'd say is that there are
some people who think of our constitution,

1855
01:55:33,568 --> 01:55:35,941
certainly in the founding period sense.

1856
01:55:36,473 --> 01:55:42,146
As if it was written by Gods and
as if we're ants and that we're so

1857
01:55:42,146 --> 01:55:46,646
little and they're so big and we're
so dumb and they're so smart, and,

1858
01:55:46,646 --> 01:55:50,300
uh, we just have to figure out what
they thought and then just do it.

1859
01:55:51,173 --> 01:55:56,968
That kind of ancestor worship is, I
think, not consistent with the best

1860
01:55:56,968 --> 01:56:00,446
understanding of American democracy,
American constitutional democracy.

1861
01:56:01,182 --> 01:56:02,900
So admire them.

1862
01:56:02,900 --> 01:56:03,391
Yes.

1863
01:56:03,882 --> 01:56:04,809
Revere them.

1864
01:56:05,246 --> 01:56:06,282
Uh, I'll go there.

1865
01:56:06,636 --> 01:56:07,264
Worship.

1866
01:56:07,536 --> 01:56:12,827
No, there were things that the
founders thought that were not just,

1867
01:56:13,155 --> 01:56:14,791
they allowed slavery after all.

1868
01:56:15,200 --> 01:56:18,746
There were things that the 14th
Amendment, the Great 14th Amendment, the

1869
01:56:18,746 --> 01:56:23,327
Sainted 14th Amendment, though the 14th
Amendment has a lot of advances in it.

1870
01:56:23,709 --> 01:56:27,473
But we know some things now
about sex equality, for example,

1871
01:56:28,018 --> 01:56:29,327
that they didn't know back then.

1872
01:56:29,900 --> 01:56:35,218
And, uh, to see them as human rather
than divine was really, really important.

1873
01:56:36,146 --> 01:56:40,018
I think it's really important to
recognize that the Constitution was

1874
01:56:40,018 --> 01:56:41,955
not made in just one single moment.

1875
01:56:42,555 --> 01:56:46,973
Just the amendments themselves are made
over the process of hundreds of years now.

1876
01:56:47,818 --> 01:56:52,536
So when we talk about the Constitution,
like you just discussed, the 13th,

1877
01:56:52,536 --> 01:56:56,791
14th, 15th amendments were incredibly
important, and many people even call

1878
01:56:56,791 --> 01:57:00,664
that as a second founding of the
country, and we've had many Constitution

1879
01:57:00,664 --> 01:57:05,436
amendments after that that again, rewrote
the Constitution in different ways.

1880
01:57:05,436 --> 01:57:08,955
When we think about what the Constitution
means, it's not just what the founding

1881
01:57:08,955 --> 01:57:13,973
fathers meant, but there's many
revisions throughout our history where.

1882
01:57:14,505 --> 01:57:16,850
The meaning of the Constitution
continued to change.

1883
01:57:16,850 --> 01:57:19,059
The text of the Constitution
continued to change.

1884
01:57:19,796 --> 01:57:25,359
Yeah, so the post Civil War amendments are
the most important of the textual changes.

1885
01:57:25,359 --> 01:57:29,505
To see them as a new constitution,
I think we should all get that.

1886
01:57:29,886 --> 01:57:32,996
I'm not sure I phrase it
exactly that way, but I get it.

1887
01:57:33,105 --> 01:57:38,396
And it is true that the equality
principle of the 14th Amendment

1888
01:57:38,396 --> 01:57:40,468
is new and massively important.

1889
01:57:41,177 --> 01:57:43,414
Applying the Bill of Rights to the states.

1890
01:57:43,659 --> 01:57:46,468
It's controversial to say
that 14th Amendment actually

1891
01:57:46,468 --> 01:57:47,777
was understood to do that.

1892
01:57:47,777 --> 01:57:51,596
I think the prevailing view is that
is the best view, but even if it

1893
01:57:51,596 --> 01:57:55,850
isn't to extend an assortment of
rights, protections to the states,

1894
01:57:55,877 --> 01:57:58,032
that was done after the Civil War.

1895
01:57:58,032 --> 01:58:01,550
Before the Civil War, the Bill of Rights
supplied only to the national government,

1896
01:58:01,932 --> 01:58:05,450
and the due process clause, for example,
clearly applies now to the states.

1897
01:58:05,450 --> 01:58:06,896
That's really, really important.

1898
01:58:07,591 --> 01:58:12,746
And that suggests that to see the document
is just frozen in the technical founding

1899
01:58:12,746 --> 01:58:14,764
period is inconsistent with the text.

1900
01:58:15,146 --> 01:58:19,455
But I, I go further than that freedom
of speech as we live and breathe it.

1901
01:58:19,946 --> 01:58:22,427
That's really a post 1950s thing.

1902
01:58:22,591 --> 01:58:26,927
That's not a post civil war thing
that came, I guess technically,

1903
01:58:27,118 --> 01:58:31,318
I don't guess I assert not like
it's a controversial assertion.

1904
01:58:31,400 --> 01:58:31,973
It's just true.

1905
01:58:32,055 --> 01:58:33,309
It came from the Supreme Court.

1906
01:58:33,827 --> 01:58:38,764
But the Supreme Court doesn't live in a
vacuum, so the Supreme Court creates very

1907
01:58:38,764 --> 01:58:40,564
broad protection of freedom, of speech.

1908
01:58:41,000 --> 01:58:45,064
It's responding to the culture in
which it lives, and we can think of

1909
01:58:45,064 --> 01:58:48,827
that as our constitutional culture
with a small sea, not a document,

1910
01:58:48,827 --> 01:58:50,000
but a constitutional culture.

1911
01:58:50,000 --> 01:58:51,636
And it has a lot of democracy in it.

1912
01:58:52,182 --> 01:58:54,991
And the free speech, which
is the most fundamental right

1913
01:58:54,991 --> 01:58:56,655
of all, that's pretty new.

1914
01:58:57,255 --> 01:59:01,809
That isn't the founding period, and
it isn't the Civil War Amendments.

1915
01:59:02,218 --> 01:59:05,409
It is the founding period in
the text that is in the text.

1916
01:59:05,436 --> 01:59:06,418
Thank goodness for that.

1917
01:59:06,855 --> 01:59:10,755
But it's a much bigger idea now
than it was at the founding.

1918
01:59:11,955 --> 01:59:15,964
So how does the court actually use the
Constitution to make those decisions,

1919
01:59:15,964 --> 01:59:21,582
especially as some of her rights continue
to evolve and expand over the course of

1920
01:59:21,855 --> 01:59:23,632
decades or even centuries at this point?

1921
01:59:24,405 --> 01:59:28,059
Because a lot of the listeners
are going to be coming from other

1922
01:59:28,059 --> 01:59:31,386
countries where the constitutions are
not quite as old, where you actually

1923
01:59:31,905 --> 01:59:37,086
know some of the people who wrote the
constitutions so that you could go

1924
01:59:37,086 --> 01:59:38,859
back to what people actually meant.

1925
01:59:39,350 --> 01:59:44,177
So we, we are looking at our constitution,
we're revising it and reinterpreting it.

1926
01:59:44,696 --> 01:59:48,214
How is the court actually using it
to make those reinterpretations?

1927
01:59:49,168 --> 01:59:51,896
That's the most fundamental
question of all really.

1928
01:59:52,032 --> 01:59:56,450
And I think the answer isn't
radically different in nations

1929
01:59:56,450 --> 02:00:00,596
that amend their constitutions
a lot from nations that don't.

1930
02:00:01,005 --> 02:00:03,841
I clerked on the Massachusetts
Supreme Judicial Court before I

1931
02:00:03,841 --> 02:00:07,796
clerked on the US Supreme Court and
state constitutions get changed more.

1932
02:00:08,314 --> 02:00:09,896
So there are different views.

1933
02:00:10,059 --> 02:00:10,768
Here's a view.

1934
02:00:11,341 --> 02:00:14,696
It says that the way to interpret
the Constitution is to allow the

1935
02:00:14,696 --> 02:00:19,659
democratic process to do whatever
it wants unless the violation of the

1936
02:00:19,659 --> 02:00:21,786
founding document is unambiguous.

1937
02:00:22,250 --> 02:00:27,241
So you could say that our fundamental
theory is self-government, or it

1938
02:00:27,241 --> 02:00:29,314
might be, you know, authoritarian.

1939
02:00:29,396 --> 02:00:32,532
But our fundamental theory is there's
politics and then there's law.

1940
02:00:33,405 --> 02:00:37,250
The Constitution should step
in only when we know for sure

1941
02:00:37,305 --> 02:00:38,886
that there's a violation of it.

1942
02:00:39,323 --> 02:00:42,241
That's a view in some nations,
sometimes political officials

1943
02:00:42,296 --> 02:00:43,714
want a view of that kind.

1944
02:00:44,068 --> 02:00:47,586
There's a law professor from
long time ago named James Bradley

1945
02:00:47,586 --> 02:00:49,632
Thayer, who defended that view.

1946
02:00:49,632 --> 02:00:52,141
It can go left of center,
it can go right of center.

1947
02:00:52,632 --> 02:00:53,368
That's one approach.

1948
02:00:53,750 --> 02:00:57,909
Another approach says we take the original
intent as you were signaling where.

1949
02:00:58,564 --> 02:01:02,791
We ask about, let's say the first
amendment, freedom of speech or

1950
02:01:02,791 --> 02:01:04,073
something about freedom of religion.

1951
02:01:04,073 --> 02:01:05,027
What did they intend?

1952
02:01:05,627 --> 02:01:10,673
And that might produce a very surprising
understanding, like there's a recent

1953
02:01:11,000 --> 02:01:16,100
paper suggesting if we follow the original
intent, blasphemy laws were acceptable,

1954
02:01:16,318 --> 02:01:17,709
consistent with the First Amendment.

1955
02:01:18,418 --> 02:01:18,718
Okay?

1956
02:01:18,718 --> 02:01:22,427
There's a third view, and this is
actually, uh, a long list, but I'm

1957
02:01:22,427 --> 02:01:23,382
only gonna give you some highlights.

1958
02:01:24,105 --> 02:01:26,450
A third view is the original meaning.

1959
02:01:27,132 --> 02:01:31,059
That might sound the same as the
original intent, but it really isn't.

1960
02:01:31,414 --> 02:01:34,932
The idea is we don't try to go into
people's heads and elicit their intent.

1961
02:01:35,068 --> 02:01:36,077
That's really hard to do.

1962
02:01:36,486 --> 02:01:40,414
Maybe it's not the democratic thing to do,
you know, to go back to someone's head,

1963
02:01:40,877 --> 02:01:43,823
the thing to do is think what was the
original public meaning of the document?

1964
02:01:44,505 --> 02:01:48,405
So if the original public, meaning
of the equal protection clause, let's

1965
02:01:48,405 --> 02:01:50,532
say, allowed racial segregation.

1966
02:01:51,255 --> 02:01:52,264
That's game over.

1967
02:01:52,809 --> 02:01:56,355
That's because the original meeting is
authoritative, even if we didn't like it.

1968
02:01:56,436 --> 02:01:57,446
That's another view.

1969
02:01:57,827 --> 02:01:58,836
There's a fourth view.

1970
02:01:58,864 --> 02:02:02,409
So we now have let the government
do what it wants there.

1971
02:02:02,682 --> 02:02:04,564
We have original intent,
we have original meeting.

1972
02:02:04,973 --> 02:02:08,600
There's a fourth view, which is read
the document where you can, so is to

1973
02:02:08,600 --> 02:02:10,509
protect the preconditions for democracy.

1974
02:02:11,259 --> 02:02:16,141
So some people, justice Steven Breyer,
basically offended this view, said

1975
02:02:16,141 --> 02:02:20,205
we're gonna be very big on free speech
and very big on voting rights because

1976
02:02:20,205 --> 02:02:22,359
democracy is fundamental to everything.

1977
02:02:22,659 --> 02:02:26,286
That's not a view of originalism,
it's a view of kind of life.

1978
02:02:26,777 --> 02:02:30,486
Democracy is fundamental, so we'll
understand the Constitution to

1979
02:02:30,486 --> 02:02:34,032
protect political dissent, even if
the original meaning didn't do that.

1980
02:02:34,496 --> 02:02:36,432
We'll, understand the Constitution to.

1981
02:02:36,814 --> 02:02:40,441
Strike down restrictions on the right
to vote, even if the original meeting

1982
02:02:40,632 --> 02:02:43,768
wasn't consistent with that, and
otherwise we'll be pretty cautious.

1983
02:02:44,368 --> 02:02:47,777
Then I'll just give one more view,
let's call it moral readings, where

1984
02:02:47,777 --> 02:02:52,659
some people say that what we need to do,
what we will inevitably do, and they say

1985
02:02:52,659 --> 02:02:57,241
what we should do is take these broad
terms like freedom of speech and equal

1986
02:02:57,241 --> 02:03:02,068
protection of law, due process of law to
understand them in the morally best way.

1987
02:03:02,668 --> 02:03:06,541
So that if equal protection is
morally best understood to forbid

1988
02:03:07,005 --> 02:03:10,523
racial segregation, let's say, then
that's the best way to read it.

1989
02:03:10,823 --> 02:03:12,868
And if it's not, that's not
the best way to read it.

1990
02:03:13,223 --> 02:03:17,150
Some people get nervous that
moral readings are subjective

1991
02:03:17,232 --> 02:03:19,332
and too intrusive on democracy.

1992
02:03:19,741 --> 02:03:23,614
Moral readers say you're gonna be doing
that even if you don't think you are.

1993
02:03:23,941 --> 02:03:25,959
And they're gonna be
saying, we allow this way.

1994
02:03:25,959 --> 02:03:26,832
Moral progress.

1995
02:03:27,541 --> 02:03:32,586
So roughly you can see moral readers,
democratic readers, and historically

1996
02:03:32,586 --> 02:03:35,996
minded readers who are trying to
figure out what was meant at the time.

1997
02:03:36,909 --> 02:03:38,919
next section B Trump.

1998
02:03:39,679 --> 02:03:43,699
Many years, if you were traveling to
the Nation of Turkmenistan, you would

1999
02:03:43,699 --> 02:03:48,409
fly in through Turkmenbashi Airport,
you'd take a cab down Turkmenbashi

2000
02:03:48,409 --> 02:03:52,189
Avenue, you'd maybe tour the campus
of Turkmenbashi Secondary School.

2001
02:03:52,519 --> 02:03:56,299
The longtime president of the country
had them all named after himself,

2002
02:03:56,419 --> 02:04:01,004
Turkmen Bai, meaning Father of all
Turk men, which was not his legal name.

2003
02:04:01,624 --> 02:04:04,834
He named himself father of all Turkmen.

2004
02:04:05,314 --> 02:04:06,244
For 20 years.

2005
02:04:06,754 --> 02:04:10,114
Shar Murat OV maintained a
cult of personality as the

2006
02:04:10,114 --> 02:04:12,094
autocratic leader of Turkmenistan.

2007
02:04:12,124 --> 02:04:15,154
He declared himself
President for Life in 1999.

2008
02:04:15,244 --> 02:04:19,564
He mandated that a book he wrote,
which I have a copy of, be taught in

2009
02:04:19,564 --> 02:04:21,424
all schools and to the civil service.

2010
02:04:21,754 --> 02:04:25,114
He changed the name of each day
of the week and month in the year.

2011
02:04:25,714 --> 02:04:27,334
January was named after him.

2012
02:04:27,634 --> 02:04:31,594
April was named after his mother,
October after a book that he wrote.

2013
02:04:32,134 --> 02:04:35,044
February was named for the country's
flag because that was the month in which

2014
02:04:35,044 --> 02:04:38,944
the people of Turkmenistan celebrated
Flag Day, but they only celebrated Flag

2015
02:04:38,944 --> 02:04:42,904
Day because they were forced to, and it
also happened to be Nizam's birthday.

2016
02:04:43,444 --> 02:04:45,724
The country and the man
were celebrated at once.

2017
02:04:45,784 --> 02:04:48,664
Citizens were bused into the
capitol and made to wave flags.

2018
02:04:48,664 --> 02:04:49,504
Parades were held.

2019
02:04:49,504 --> 02:04:52,504
Members of the government
handed him awards, statues

2020
02:04:52,504 --> 02:04:53,614
of him littered the capitol.

2021
02:04:53,614 --> 02:04:54,664
Almost always.

2022
02:04:54,979 --> 02:04:57,139
Made of gold across the world.

2023
02:04:57,139 --> 02:05:00,259
An American man also obsessed with
gold and famous for naming buildings

2024
02:05:00,259 --> 02:05:03,589
after himself entered the fray of
American politics and amassed the

2025
02:05:03,589 --> 02:05:06,799
largest cult of personality that
our country had seen in decades.

2026
02:05:07,369 --> 02:05:10,489
And now he's engaging in a
self naming spree that would

2027
02:05:10,489 --> 02:05:13,099
rival ni ofv before politics.

2028
02:05:13,129 --> 02:05:16,189
Donald Trump stamped his name onto
skyscrapers and hotels and ties

2029
02:05:16,189 --> 02:05:18,259
and stakes and vodka as president.

2030
02:05:18,289 --> 02:05:19,099
He still hawks.

2031
02:05:19,099 --> 02:05:20,764
Economists watches phones and sneakers.

2032
02:05:21,604 --> 02:05:25,564
But in his second term as President, the
habit is mutated into an ugly obsession,

2033
02:05:25,804 --> 02:05:30,004
a physical representation of his attempts
to remake government in his image.

2034
02:05:30,484 --> 02:05:33,484
According to reporting by the New York
Times, the Trump administration tried

2035
02:05:33,484 --> 02:05:37,444
to pressure the Senate minority leader,
Chuck Schumer, to help rename Penn

2036
02:05:37,444 --> 02:05:42,694
Station in New York City and Dulles
Airport in DC after Donald Trump in

2037
02:05:42,694 --> 02:05:46,774
exchange for Trump releasing funding
that he had frozen for the Gateway Rail

2038
02:05:46,774 --> 02:05:48,359
Tunnel between New York and New Jersey.

2039
02:05:49,354 --> 02:05:51,934
The Trump administration has
since sent, they will release that

2040
02:05:51,934 --> 02:05:54,724
funding, but on other buildings,
he's just gone ahead and put a sign

2041
02:05:54,724 --> 02:05:56,134
up without congressional backing.

2042
02:05:56,764 --> 02:06:00,304
His name sits atop a sign at
the US Institute of Peace, which

2043
02:06:00,304 --> 02:06:02,854
is an independent government
funded research institute.

2044
02:06:03,154 --> 02:06:06,604
It was placed there after the agency
had been gutted by the so-called

2045
02:06:06,604 --> 02:06:08,104
Department of Government Efficiency.

2046
02:06:08,224 --> 02:06:12,124
And while the institute was fighting
do Donald Trump's power grab in court,

2047
02:06:12,574 --> 02:06:16,414
the State Department said the name
change was made to reflect the greatest

2048
02:06:16,414 --> 02:06:18,634
deal maker in our nation's history.

2049
02:06:19,324 --> 02:06:21,034
About a 15 minute walk from that building.

2050
02:06:21,034 --> 02:06:23,404
Donald Trump's name has been affixed
to the outside of the Kennedy

2051
02:06:23,404 --> 02:06:24,814
Center for the Performing Arts.

2052
02:06:25,054 --> 02:06:29,404
Only Congress has the authority to
change its name, but that hasn't stopped.

2053
02:06:29,404 --> 02:06:32,584
Trump, who appointed himself,
director of the Center elsewhere

2054
02:06:32,584 --> 02:06:33,484
in the nation's capitol.

2055
02:06:33,484 --> 02:06:36,634
A 50 foot banner of the President's
face hung from the US Department of

2056
02:06:36,634 --> 02:06:39,874
Agriculture Building, side by side
with a banner of Abraham Lincoln.

2057
02:06:39,874 --> 02:06:43,384
And in November it was reported
that Trump asked DC's pro football

2058
02:06:43,384 --> 02:06:46,294
team, the commanders, to name
their new stadium after him.

2059
02:06:46,879 --> 02:06:48,709
Across government, a
range of new initiatives.

2060
02:06:48,709 --> 02:06:50,449
Also bear the president's name.

2061
02:06:50,569 --> 02:06:54,199
A new website to purchase
medication is called Trump Rx.

2062
02:06:54,439 --> 02:06:57,559
Investment accounts for newborn babies,
partially funded by billionaire.

2063
02:06:57,559 --> 02:07:02,629
Donations are being Trump, uh, dubbed
Trump accounts by the IRSA fast track

2064
02:07:02,659 --> 02:07:06,904
immigration visa costing a million dollars
is being dubbed the Trump Gold Card.

2065
02:07:07,084 --> 02:07:09,949
The card features a photo
of Donald Trump's face.

2066
02:07:10,639 --> 02:07:13,669
On the website almost as if to tease
you a banner in small print at the

2067
02:07:13,669 --> 02:07:17,779
top reads that this is, quote, an
official website of the United States

2068
02:07:17,779 --> 02:07:19,999
government could have fooled me.

2069
02:07:20,839 --> 02:07:25,099
Late last year the US Navy announced
a new Trump class of battleship.

2070
02:07:25,774 --> 02:07:29,644
And the Air Force is replacing a
fleet of F 22 Raptors with new F

2071
02:07:29,764 --> 02:07:33,664
47 fighter jets in honor of Donald
Trump being the 47th president.

2072
02:07:34,054 --> 02:07:37,324
Over 5,000 miles away in the
south caucuses, a US developed

2073
02:07:37,324 --> 02:07:41,014
trade corridor through Armenia is
being named the Trump route for

2074
02:07:41,014 --> 02:07:42,544
international peace and prosperity.

2075
02:07:43,219 --> 02:07:47,869
There is in an echo of Niyazov's Turk,
Stan, a conflation of celebrating Trump

2076
02:07:48,049 --> 02:07:49,729
and the celebrating of the nation.

2077
02:07:49,729 --> 02:07:53,029
In fact, a New York Republican in
Congress has suggested doing exactly

2078
02:07:53,029 --> 02:07:54,889
what Turk Stan did a year ago.

2079
02:07:54,889 --> 02:07:59,899
She introduced a Trump birthday and
flag day holiday establishment act into

2080
02:07:59,899 --> 02:08:04,879
Congress to combine the two, which fall
on the same day into one federal holiday.

2081
02:08:05,329 --> 02:08:06,439
It didn't make it to a vote.

2082
02:08:07,234 --> 02:08:10,894
The Commemorative National Park passes
for our country's 250th anniversary

2083
02:08:10,894 --> 02:08:14,134
feature an image of Donald Trump
alongside one of George Washington.

2084
02:08:14,824 --> 02:08:18,634
Although a contr conservation group is
suing to have that removed, the National

2085
02:08:18,634 --> 02:08:23,254
Park System has said it will void
passes if they are defaced or altered

2086
02:08:23,794 --> 02:08:26,704
Trump's defense, by the way, for all
of these examples, is that they were

2087
02:08:26,704 --> 02:08:29,134
suggested or undertaken by other people.

2088
02:08:29,134 --> 02:08:33,124
The State Department said it changed
the name of the Institute of Peace.

2089
02:08:33,814 --> 02:08:36,514
Neither renaming the Kennedy
Center, nor the naming of Trump's

2090
02:08:36,514 --> 02:08:38,104
Rx were the President's ideas.

2091
02:08:38,104 --> 02:08:39,064
At least according to him.

2092
02:08:39,184 --> 02:08:42,304
He says it's all a great honor,
but this actually puts us

2093
02:08:42,304 --> 02:08:44,224
back into Turk Stan territory.

2094
02:08:44,344 --> 02:08:47,644
NAB's birthday was made a
holiday by the Parliament.

2095
02:08:48,154 --> 02:08:51,964
Schools across the country were
named after him simply by custom.

2096
02:08:52,774 --> 02:08:55,594
Because this type of behavior begets
itself, especially when a leader

2097
02:08:55,594 --> 02:08:57,994
markets himself as openly transactional.

2098
02:08:57,994 --> 02:09:00,454
If people know the only way to
make their point is to curry favor,

2099
02:09:01,564 --> 02:09:02,944
they'll just start to curry favor.

2100
02:09:04,039 --> 02:09:06,949
President Washington who appears
behind beside Trump on the

2101
02:09:06,949 --> 02:09:11,269
National Park Pass, objected to
having his own likeness on a coin.

2102
02:09:11,989 --> 02:09:14,869
Only after his death did
the country defy him.

2103
02:09:15,529 --> 02:09:18,679
But just as he demonstrated when he
walked away from the presidency after

2104
02:09:18,679 --> 02:09:22,219
two terms, Washington understood that
the country was bigger than the man and

2105
02:09:22,219 --> 02:09:23,839
that no man came before the country.

2106
02:09:24,559 --> 02:09:27,979
Alongside Donald Trump's hunger for
territorial expansion with Greenland and

2107
02:09:27,979 --> 02:09:32,209
his sore loser attitude over the Nobel
Peace Prize, his self naming spree is

2108
02:09:32,209 --> 02:09:36,619
part of his quest for permanent legacy, an
effort to etch his paragraph in history.

2109
02:09:36,619 --> 02:09:41,029
But let's go back to Turkmenistan and
Niyazov to figure out how the story ends.

2110
02:09:41,809 --> 02:09:43,999
In 2006, Niyazov passed away.

2111
02:09:44,059 --> 02:09:46,489
While in office, a new
autocrat replaced him.

2112
02:09:47,029 --> 02:09:51,199
The country quickly changed back all of
those names of the days and the months.

2113
02:09:51,604 --> 02:09:54,664
Banners with Niyazov's face and name
were removed from the capital city.

2114
02:09:54,664 --> 02:09:58,054
In 2008, they abolished the
holiday honoring his birthday.

2115
02:09:58,684 --> 02:10:04,354
By 2016, the central airport would
no longer bear his name, so Trump

2116
02:10:04,354 --> 02:10:08,404
would do well to learn Niyazov's story
or he could go back even further to

2117
02:10:08,404 --> 02:10:14,944
Percy Shelley's 1818 poem, Azi Uhand,
warning against the hubris of Leaders

2118
02:10:14,944 --> 02:10:16,924
if there ever was on the pedestal.

2119
02:10:16,924 --> 02:10:17,914
These words appear.

2120
02:10:18,094 --> 02:10:20,734
My name is Azi Mania, king of Kings.

2121
02:10:21,259 --> 02:10:22,159
Look on my works.

2122
02:10:22,219 --> 02:10:23,509
Yeee mighty in despair.

2123
02:10:24,139 --> 02:10:25,999
Nothing beside remains.

2124
02:10:26,009 --> 02:10:30,779
It's no secret that Donald Trump likes
to see big buildings named after himself.

2125
02:10:30,779 --> 02:10:34,229
Over the past year, he has plastered
his name on the Kennedy Center

2126
02:10:34,259 --> 02:10:36,239
and the US Institute for Peace.

2127
02:10:36,269 --> 02:10:41,849
And in December, the Navy announced plans
for a quote, Trump class of battleships.

2128
02:10:42,089 --> 02:10:45,839
Just last night, Trump unveiled a new
government website for prescription

2129
02:10:45,839 --> 02:10:50,309
drugs called Trump Rx, but this
goes further than any of that.

2130
02:10:50,824 --> 02:10:55,624
Two sources familiar with a conversation
that President Trump had with Senate

2131
02:10:55,624 --> 02:10:57,244
leader Chuck Schumer last month.

2132
02:10:57,574 --> 02:11:02,404
Tell me that Trump told Schumer that he
would be unwilling to un, he'd be willing

2133
02:11:02,404 --> 02:11:08,794
to unfreeze $16 billion in funding for a
major infrastructure project in New York.

2134
02:11:09,014 --> 02:11:14,174
If Schumer would agree to rename New
York's Penn Station and Washington's

2135
02:11:14,174 --> 02:11:19,454
Dulles airport after Donald Trump,
the New York project, a rail tunnel

2136
02:11:19,454 --> 02:11:22,934
that would connect New York City
and New Jersey had already started.

2137
02:11:23,294 --> 02:11:26,504
Now, officials say if the money
is not freed up, the project

2138
02:11:26,504 --> 02:11:28,274
will stop leaving about one.

2139
02:11:28,409 --> 02:11:31,229
Thousand construction jobs in jeopardy.

2140
02:11:31,529 --> 02:11:35,099
My sources tell me that
Schumer rejected the offer.

2141
02:11:35,429 --> 02:11:38,879
There is no comment yet from either
the White House or Senator Schumer's

2142
02:11:38,879 --> 02:11:43,259
office on the story which was
first reported by Punch Bull News,

2143
02:11:43,259 --> 02:11:47,249
I want to turn to the domestic situation,
'cause this is really why I wanted to have

2144
02:11:47,249 --> 02:11:54,989
you back, and I'm trying to place what we
are witnessing in our cities in context.

2145
02:11:55,049 --> 02:12:00,179
What has changed since you were last here
is we had, you know, the National Guard.

2146
02:12:00,574 --> 02:12:07,804
Um, in cities like Chicago, la,
Portland, and they were, uh, unwelcomed,

2147
02:12:07,864 --> 02:12:10,144
they were causing disturbance.

2148
02:12:10,144 --> 02:12:14,224
But the National Guardsmen
themselves seemed at times, or not

2149
02:12:14,224 --> 02:12:15,724
at times, seemed mostly reluctant.

2150
02:12:16,054 --> 02:12:19,984
I mean, they were not entirely clear
why they were there, and they certainly

2151
02:12:19,984 --> 02:12:21,244
were not shooting people, right.

2152
02:12:21,274 --> 02:12:23,314
They were a sign of.

2153
02:12:24,224 --> 02:12:28,514
Donald Trump's strength, but they
weren't necessarily themselves

2154
02:12:28,994 --> 02:12:32,444
engaged in, you know, acts that that.

2155
02:12:33,029 --> 02:12:36,539
Uh, dominate the news, like what
we see in Minnesota where it's not

2156
02:12:36,539 --> 02:12:40,259
the National Guard, it's actually
part of the executive branch.

2157
02:12:40,259 --> 02:12:44,429
It's ICE and, uh, and, uh,
border patrol, I guess.

2158
02:12:44,489 --> 02:12:48,989
And they seem to, in these
videos, not just being engaged in.

2159
02:12:49,809 --> 02:12:54,399
Violations of civil rights and, and in
the killing of, you know, in a tragic

2160
02:12:54,399 --> 02:12:57,789
event and the killing of a woman that's
just heartbreak and shooting her in

2161
02:12:57,789 --> 02:13:01,869
the face and calling her names and, you
know, I mean, all of it's terrible, but

2162
02:13:01,869 --> 02:13:04,209
there seems to be almost a relish in.

2163
02:13:04,839 --> 02:13:08,184
I'm not saying they relish that killing,
but you just see some of the videos in

2164
02:13:08,184 --> 02:13:10,059
the way they are interacting with people.

2165
02:13:10,119 --> 02:13:12,159
One of the things that struck
me, Ruth, is they don't say.

2166
02:13:13,129 --> 02:13:16,309
You know, ma'am, will you please
step out of the car or serve?

2167
02:13:16,399 --> 02:13:16,639
Right.

2168
02:13:16,819 --> 02:13:20,899
There's a, there's sort of a
contemptuous that they show towards

2169
02:13:20,899 --> 02:13:26,989
the population, and I guess I'm
asking you what you make of that.

2170
02:13:27,049 --> 02:13:33,649
Like why, why do, why would a, an
authoritarian want to be seen as treating

2171
02:13:33,649 --> 02:13:38,089
the public disrespectfully when they
are establishing this kind of, you

2172
02:13:38,089 --> 02:13:40,639
know, control as opposed to, you know.

2173
02:13:41,444 --> 02:13:43,604
Have a different, like they're
definitely not trying to be

2174
02:13:43,604 --> 02:13:45,554
beloved in the communities.

2175
02:13:45,614 --> 02:13:45,854
Yeah.

2176
02:13:45,854 --> 02:13:48,344
It's really important to
just, to talk about this.

2177
02:13:48,404 --> 02:13:54,254
Um, and the net each, um, military
or as they call them a broad state

2178
02:13:54,254 --> 02:13:57,284
security forces, each of them
have their own kind of culture.

2179
02:13:58,064 --> 02:14:02,114
Uh, operational culture, social
culture, and the National Guard.

2180
02:14:02,684 --> 02:14:06,074
One of its main things, it
did and was known, uh, to the

2181
02:14:06,074 --> 02:14:08,174
public is helping in disasters.

2182
02:14:08,294 --> 02:14:12,764
Katrina and many places they have
policing, um, capabilities, but

2183
02:14:12,764 --> 02:14:16,634
they also are, uh, uh, you could
say a humanitarian assistance.

2184
02:14:16,634 --> 02:14:21,854
That's what people, and, and so that's
reflected in their, uh, in their.

2185
02:14:22,679 --> 02:14:26,549
When they're put into this new situation
that that comes with them, that culture,

2186
02:14:27,029 --> 02:14:32,789
ice is, uh, it pre, of course, predated
Trump, but it, it has been under Trump.

2187
02:14:32,789 --> 02:14:38,399
It has been, uh, re socialized to be
a kind of authoritarian, paramilitary.

2188
02:14:39,074 --> 02:14:42,974
Reminds me very much of the
fascist, militia and all kinds

2189
02:14:42,974 --> 02:14:44,594
of authoritarian para militaries.

2190
02:14:44,594 --> 02:14:48,464
And not only 'cause of the masks, but
the co the comportment, the behavior.

2191
02:14:48,554 --> 02:14:54,614
And so the scorn and the contempt is
part of this, that they are taught, that

2192
02:14:54,614 --> 02:15:02,414
they, uh, have, they've been, um, they've
been given a kind of immunity, uh, which

2193
02:15:02,414 --> 02:15:04,844
indeed this, the agent who shot, uh.

2194
02:15:05,474 --> 02:15:10,184
Uh, Renée Good was given a study, had
they told, they said he had immunity,

2195
02:15:10,694 --> 02:15:16,034
but, um, they've been given a kind of, uh,
carte blanche to behave any way they want.

2196
02:15:16,124 --> 02:15:20,234
And so this arrogance and this, and
the, the will to humiliate people like

2197
02:15:20,234 --> 02:15:25,604
marching immigrants, uh, you know, out,
uh, in a, in the cold in their underpants

2198
02:15:25,604 --> 02:15:30,284
or in a bathrobe and for no reason, and
then taking them back home sometimes.

2199
02:15:30,284 --> 02:15:32,264
And the public sphere.

2200
02:15:32,264 --> 02:15:34,364
This is very important
that the public sphere.

2201
02:15:34,844 --> 02:15:38,414
Under, in, under
Authoritarianism, it's our space.

2202
02:15:38,414 --> 02:15:42,074
These are our public spaces, our
neighborhoods, and they become like

2203
02:15:42,074 --> 02:15:47,714
a, a scene, a like a movie set, but
all too real of authoritarian, uh,

2204
02:15:47,744 --> 02:15:50,954
rituals of humiliation and domination.

2205
02:15:51,044 --> 02:15:53,609
And so your streets, your
public squares become.

2206
02:15:54,194 --> 02:15:59,024
Um, like, uh, you know,
spectacles of humiliation and,

2207
02:15:59,054 --> 02:16:00,644
and that's, that's part of it.

2208
02:16:00,644 --> 02:16:06,044
But Isis, ice culture, ice
socialization is to be the lawless,

2209
02:16:06,044 --> 02:16:12,074
arrogant, brutal, um, kind of
corpse of that, of this regime.

2210
02:16:12,164 --> 02:16:15,764
I don't want to get too theoretical
about this, but you know.

2211
02:16:16,739 --> 02:16:17,459
I understand.

2212
02:16:17,459 --> 02:16:20,579
You know, people read Machiavelli and they
say it's better to be feared than loved,

2213
02:16:20,579 --> 02:16:26,129
but, but mostly what Machiavelli is saying
is actually you want to be both loved and

2214
02:16:26,129 --> 02:16:32,729
feared, and you want to be viewed by the
population as essentially restraining.

2215
02:16:33,554 --> 02:16:39,224
The, the, the army from
engaging in abuses, right?

2216
02:16:39,224 --> 02:16:43,184
There are several chapters of, in which
Machiavelli talks about, you know, how,

2217
02:16:43,214 --> 02:16:48,284
how a dictator, um, does that, if we
were in Hungary with Victor Orbin, or

2218
02:16:48,284 --> 02:16:53,054
we were in, you know, transported back
to Mussolini, or we were in Russia.

2219
02:16:53,239 --> 02:16:57,679
Putin, is this what you see or do
the leaders want to be seen by the

2220
02:16:57,679 --> 02:17:01,729
public as benevolent, like actually
condemning this kind of behavior?

2221
02:17:01,729 --> 02:17:06,229
Or is there a util like, does
Donald Trump see a utility in people

2222
02:17:06,229 --> 02:17:08,479
projecting this humiliating force?

2223
02:17:08,749 --> 02:17:11,689
Or is it counter like, to me it seems
like it would be counterproductive

2224
02:17:11,749 --> 02:17:13,039
and it is counterproductive.

2225
02:17:13,039 --> 02:17:17,419
In fact, we see in, uh, Minneapolis
and twin cities that the more

2226
02:17:17,419 --> 02:17:19,129
brutal they are, the more people.

2227
02:17:19,484 --> 02:17:23,774
And this is very moving, very
inspirational, are signing up for

2228
02:17:23,774 --> 02:17:25,874
trainings for whistle, be grades.

2229
02:17:26,204 --> 02:17:29,624
Um, and they're, they're very
conscious that, that despite all

2230
02:17:29,624 --> 02:17:32,624
the brutality, they're not gonna
show that they've been dominated and

2231
02:17:32,624 --> 02:17:34,394
they're taking back the public space.

2232
02:17:34,454 --> 02:17:36,314
So there's two spectacles going on.

2233
02:17:36,644 --> 02:17:42,644
So what you're asking is in, at the
level of an ice or a paramilitary secret,

2234
02:17:42,644 --> 02:17:47,174
police who are in the public, they don't
wanna be loved, they couldn't care less.

2235
02:17:47,174 --> 02:17:48,824
The whole point is to be feared.

2236
02:17:49,259 --> 02:17:53,189
Of, of the average person, and they're
chosen for that reason, and they

2237
02:17:53,189 --> 02:17:54,839
know they're gonna be given immunity.

2238
02:17:54,869 --> 02:17:58,409
That's why autocrats from
Mussolini pinoche up to Trump.

2239
02:17:58,409 --> 02:17:59,429
They, they use pardons.

2240
02:18:00,089 --> 02:18:04,649
They're always pardoning people, but the
leader has a different psychology that

2241
02:18:04,649 --> 02:18:10,019
these leaders are behind their bluster,
they're very insecure, and they, they want

2242
02:18:10,019 --> 02:18:15,359
to be, maybe not, they wanna be feared
for sure, but they also want to be liked.

2243
02:18:15,869 --> 02:18:19,919
And, and it really bothers them if
they're still public opinion polls

2244
02:18:19,919 --> 02:18:25,139
and elections that, uh, if, if they
go down too much in estimation.

2245
02:18:25,844 --> 02:18:29,054
That's when they become more
reckless and they become more

2246
02:18:29,054 --> 02:18:33,584
vindictive and, and look at what's
playing out, uh, with Donald Trump.

2247
02:18:33,704 --> 02:18:38,444
And I was thinking, uh, that all of
this behavior had something to do with

2248
02:18:38,444 --> 02:18:42,164
this, uh, you know, ego injury for
not getting the Nobel Peace Prize.

2249
02:18:42,394 --> 02:18:48,394
You can never underestimate the,
uh, obsession with, um, getting

2250
02:18:48,394 --> 02:18:49,984
something you think you deserve.

2251
02:18:50,524 --> 02:18:54,424
And so it leads you to behave in
ways that will far from having you

2252
02:18:54,424 --> 02:18:56,884
be loved, will have you be ridiculed.

2253
02:18:56,974 --> 02:19:01,744
And that's also why autocrats are
so, um, they're so insecure and

2254
02:19:01,744 --> 02:19:03,394
particularly they don't wanna be mocked.

2255
02:19:04,139 --> 02:19:09,029
Um, because they do things that are,
uh, counterproductive all the time.

2256
02:19:09,299 --> 02:19:11,789
Out of peak, out of grievance.

2257
02:19:11,849 --> 02:19:15,089
You know what's strange though, as
people talk about it, we had a no King's

2258
02:19:15,089 --> 02:19:20,339
rally here in Columbia several months
ago, and King is such an archaic term.

2259
02:19:20,849 --> 02:19:23,219
I mean, honestly the best word is tyrant.

2260
02:19:23,249 --> 02:19:23,309
Yeah.

2261
02:19:23,699 --> 02:19:27,899
And, and, and we have a man that
has so lack of knowledge of history

2262
02:19:28,079 --> 02:19:30,089
or understanding or context.

2263
02:19:30,819 --> 02:19:32,499
He's elevated by people.

2264
02:19:32,499 --> 02:19:36,279
A lot of people in this nation, as many
of your listeners there know, you know

2265
02:19:36,279 --> 02:19:40,959
the ugly American tourist that shows up
that doesn't really understand the history

2266
02:19:40,959 --> 02:19:46,089
of, of Europe or anything in England and
just wants everything to appeal to them.

2267
02:19:47,019 --> 02:19:49,059
Like creating some sort
of fake Disneyland.

2268
02:19:49,059 --> 02:19:53,139
Well, that's what is supporting
this man now is a total lack of

2269
02:19:53,199 --> 02:19:55,239
understanding of context of history.

2270
02:19:55,419 --> 02:19:59,379
So he makes one trip and sees the arc,
the triumph there in Paris, and all

2271
02:19:59,379 --> 02:20:00,909
of a sudden he wants an arc to Trump.

2272
02:20:00,969 --> 02:20:06,194
He actually said Arc, the Trump, and
nobody in his base pushed back on it.

2273
02:20:06,894 --> 02:20:11,844
So we have an illness of perception in
this nation that's supporting this mess.

2274
02:20:12,264 --> 02:20:15,114
The administration though, has
been described as a kind of

2275
02:20:15,144 --> 02:20:19,524
internet style content production
machine headed by a Trojan, right?

2276
02:20:19,524 --> 02:20:21,984
The, the purpose is to grab
and fill headlines, just

2277
02:20:21,984 --> 02:20:23,274
dominate the information space.

2278
02:20:23,514 --> 02:20:26,184
Meanwhile, the actual policies of.

2279
02:20:26,844 --> 02:20:31,194
Violent detention, uh, you know,
concentration camps, subversion

2280
02:20:31,194 --> 02:20:34,164
of the real law that's happening
elsewhere, because what you are

2281
02:20:34,164 --> 02:20:37,854
concerned about is he's renamed the
Kennedy Center after himself, or

2282
02:20:37,854 --> 02:20:41,964
he's made a video dumping sewage on
protestors or whatever the latest.

2283
02:20:42,039 --> 02:20:45,249
Dumb thing is, and that does
seem new because there, there

2284
02:20:45,249 --> 02:20:48,069
were not those avenues of mass
media available in the past.

2285
02:20:48,459 --> 02:20:52,689
I mean, is it a new form of politics that
a America's gotta deal with and B, you've

2286
02:20:52,689 --> 02:20:56,889
gotta watch out for your 250th birthday
celebrations being conscripted into

2287
02:20:57,489 --> 02:20:59,739
Well, it, it's definitely
going to try to do that.

2288
02:20:59,739 --> 02:21:02,949
And, and the other element of
this is the technology of the

2289
02:21:02,949 --> 02:21:05,409
algorithms of social media.

2290
02:21:05,709 --> 02:21:09,189
I mean, I have very good friends
that are very intelligent.

2291
02:21:09,549 --> 02:21:15,189
But because of the mistrust that's put
into the opposition, the demonization

2292
02:21:15,189 --> 02:21:19,659
of the opposition, they only look at
information in their comfort silos,

2293
02:21:19,929 --> 02:21:24,579
and they honestly do not even know
the facts and the knowledge that I

2294
02:21:24,579 --> 02:21:28,659
have when I come to a conversation and
they just think I'm a radical liar.

2295
02:21:29,049 --> 02:21:33,309
It's, and, and it's made it very difficult
to have any sort of healing conversation.

2296
02:21:34,209 --> 02:21:36,189
Well, let's talk about your
book, reviving Our Republic.

2297
02:21:36,219 --> 02:21:41,889
It contains ideas of how to reenergize
America, reconnect it with its purpose.

2298
02:21:41,889 --> 02:21:45,639
It talks about things like term
limits in Congress, removing corporate

2299
02:21:45,639 --> 02:21:48,669
money, breaking up monopolies in
media and healthcare and fund.

2300
02:21:48,819 --> 02:21:50,954
Talk us through what
you are saying here and.

2301
02:21:51,994 --> 02:21:55,894
Why it's urgent, because for
those of us in the UK, we just

2302
02:21:55,894 --> 02:21:57,814
see a continual degeneration.

2303
02:21:58,504 --> 02:21:58,684
Yeah.

2304
02:21:58,684 --> 02:22:03,874
So I let, let's give a big 36,000
viewpoint for say, I want to communicate

2305
02:22:03,874 --> 02:22:08,974
to all your listeners there that the
America that you know that came in in

2306
02:22:08,974 --> 02:22:13,804
World War II and that helped form NATO
and the world order that existed since the

2307
02:22:13,804 --> 02:22:17,134
fifties is an anomaly in American history.

2308
02:22:17,499 --> 02:22:22,389
America's system was meant to divide
and to stay small and to maintain

2309
02:22:22,389 --> 02:22:24,519
liberty on communities and states.

2310
02:22:24,879 --> 02:22:30,549
And so the systems that were put into
place in order to ensure that world

2311
02:22:31,119 --> 02:22:34,659
hegemonic system was in place is counter.

2312
02:22:34,964 --> 02:22:37,064
To what the original DNA of us were.

2313
02:22:37,604 --> 02:22:42,014
And so what we're seeing now is now
that it's become so big and powerful,

2314
02:22:42,344 --> 02:22:44,414
that's where the forces are fighting.

2315
02:22:44,774 --> 02:22:47,744
And what I come in with the
book is to believe, since I'm

2316
02:22:47,744 --> 02:22:51,014
in the Navy, I understand the
concept of ballast in a ship.

2317
02:22:51,224 --> 02:22:54,044
And the ballast and the ship
that's most steady is the one

2318
02:22:54,044 --> 02:22:55,604
with the ballast in the bottom.

2319
02:22:55,844 --> 02:22:59,744
So I see our ballast stone of
50 stones of 50 weights in the

2320
02:22:59,744 --> 02:23:01,274
bottom of a ship stabilizing.

2321
02:23:01,834 --> 02:23:05,374
Has now been put up on top of the
deck and morphed into one big stone

2322
02:23:05,374 --> 02:23:08,584
at the top of a mast and is doing
nothing but going back and forth.

2323
02:23:09,124 --> 02:23:13,084
That's what the book was about on how
to bring those ballas stones back down,

2324
02:23:13,354 --> 02:23:16,474
how to decentralize power, how to.

2325
02:23:17,214 --> 02:23:24,744
Not be the only responsible party for
world peace, necessarily for world

2326
02:23:24,744 --> 02:23:31,164
policing and to help heal ourselves a
little bit so we could be a peer among

2327
02:23:31,164 --> 02:23:35,889
world nations and not the dominating
force where we could be the shining city

2328
02:23:35,889 --> 02:23:40,464
on the hill that others will look to
for inspiration and not out of fear of

2329
02:23:40,464 --> 02:23:42,204
the spotlight, hitting them in the face.

2330
02:23:42,624 --> 02:23:44,464
That's what I tried to
put together in the book.

2331
02:23:45,294 --> 02:23:48,204
So what does that mean when you break
it down into kind of individual,

2332
02:23:48,714 --> 02:23:52,764
you know, policy moves, uh,
individual changes in your society?

2333
02:23:52,764 --> 02:23:57,024
Because we have seen America being
reshaped by media and by money

2334
02:23:57,024 --> 02:24:01,044
in ways that let alone aren't
predicted in the constitution.

2335
02:24:01,404 --> 02:24:04,524
None of the framers could have
even conceived of these things.

2336
02:24:04,704 --> 02:24:05,679
No, they couldn't have.

2337
02:24:05,739 --> 02:24:07,884
And the base of the
books is on two things.

2338
02:24:07,884 --> 02:24:12,594
One, Martin Luther's nailing his 95 theses
that started the Protestant Reformation.

2339
02:24:12,864 --> 02:24:13,884
So I took that.

2340
02:24:13,959 --> 02:24:19,089
Framework of 95 theses put it into the
book, but the information I base it

2341
02:24:19,089 --> 02:24:21,039
on is Washington's farewell address.

2342
02:24:21,309 --> 02:24:25,479
'cause after eight years of him
being the first president, he saw

2343
02:24:25,599 --> 02:24:28,569
the limitations of what they didn't
deal with in the Constitution.

2344
02:24:28,569 --> 02:24:33,279
He saw the rise of party conflict,
so he warned the nation as he left.

2345
02:24:33,549 --> 02:24:35,139
Here's how you keep this republic.

2346
02:24:35,499 --> 02:24:37,569
You have to pat down party.

2347
02:24:37,569 --> 02:24:43,179
Do not base your philosophies on
party politics, on fake patriotism.

2348
02:24:43,419 --> 02:24:48,489
Beware of foreign entangled alliances to
where you're beholden to other nations

2349
02:24:48,489 --> 02:24:53,199
for your own safety versus yourselves,
and also fiscal responsibility of.

2350
02:24:53,929 --> 02:24:55,789
Taking care of your debt limit.

2351
02:24:56,479 --> 02:25:00,829
I added a fourth section in there,
which is the Corporatization of America

2352
02:25:01,189 --> 02:25:04,879
and the collusion between corporations
and government, which has happened

2353
02:25:05,209 --> 02:25:06,709
really bad since the seventies.

2354
02:25:06,709 --> 02:25:10,069
So one of the first things that I
think is really important, a lot

2355
02:25:10,069 --> 02:25:13,759
of people know about our Supreme
Court case called Citizens United.

2356
02:25:14,029 --> 02:25:14,179
Yes.

2357
02:25:14,179 --> 02:25:15,124
Where it allowed.

2358
02:25:15,789 --> 02:25:20,559
Mega corporations to just pump in
money blindly into political campaigns.

2359
02:25:20,769 --> 02:25:23,139
For listeners who don't, who don't
know this, essentially Citizens

2360
02:25:23,139 --> 02:25:26,289
United implies that corporations
have the same rights as human beings.

2361
02:25:26,289 --> 02:25:26,469
Yes,

2362
02:25:26,469 --> 02:25:26,949
that's right.

2363
02:25:27,219 --> 02:25:27,759
That's right.

2364
02:25:27,819 --> 02:25:32,379
And so actually being a textualist
and originalist, the court got

2365
02:25:32,379 --> 02:25:37,959
it technically correct because
corporations have had personhood

2366
02:25:37,959 --> 02:25:40,059
attached to them over the past century.

2367
02:25:40,359 --> 02:25:43,329
So when you look at the text,
personhood is personhood.

2368
02:25:43,974 --> 02:25:48,624
However, while you fix that, instead
of politicizing the Supreme Court, just

2369
02:25:48,624 --> 02:25:53,034
say, okay, if that's the rules, then
in the Constitution we must separate

2370
02:25:53,334 --> 02:25:59,274
natural persons from artificial
personas and we must put that in.

2371
02:25:59,424 --> 02:26:05,304
That will fix, I believe, 70% of the
issues because then we can then regulate.

2372
02:26:06,174 --> 02:26:11,484
The next step, which would be if anybody
runs for office only those people who

2373
02:26:11,484 --> 02:26:16,134
can vote for them can contribute to the
financial stability of their campaign.

2374
02:26:17,004 --> 02:26:17,454
Period.

2375
02:26:17,634 --> 02:26:18,894
No corporations, no.

2376
02:26:18,894 --> 02:26:21,384
Outside your district, nothing.

2377
02:26:21,504 --> 02:26:22,464
Only those people.

2378
02:26:23,034 --> 02:26:24,444
It's an interesting thought.

2379
02:26:24,474 --> 02:26:27,654
I mean, it almost sounds like what
you're talking about is uns scrambling

2380
02:26:27,654 --> 02:26:30,324
an omelet though, because, you know,
this has been the Americans as long

2381
02:26:30,324 --> 02:26:32,184
as I've been alive, so I wasn't
gonna been able to pay attention.

2382
02:26:32,904 --> 02:26:36,744
Pax and Super pacs and corporate
involvement have been the defining factor.

2383
02:26:37,404 --> 02:26:40,524
I, I guess the, the, maybe the kind
of obvious and slightly dumb question

2384
02:26:40,524 --> 02:26:41,634
is how do you get there from here?

2385
02:26:42,354 --> 02:26:45,654
Well, you get a lot of
people getting so fed up.

2386
02:26:46,064 --> 02:26:50,294
They're willing to change their
positioning and realize we have

2387
02:26:50,294 --> 02:26:54,734
to do a radical thing and trying
to get people to come out of

2388
02:26:54,734 --> 02:26:56,234
communities and run for office.

2389
02:26:56,234 --> 02:27:00,014
Now we kind of have a mentality
that, well, our representation

2390
02:27:00,014 --> 02:27:03,644
is done by the politicians in
our community and not by us.

2391
02:27:03,644 --> 02:27:05,714
I just need to go and
work at the drugstore.

2392
02:27:05,714 --> 02:27:09,314
I need to do what I do and I
hope I can vote for the right

2393
02:27:09,314 --> 02:27:11,174
guys when I have limited choices.

2394
02:27:11,624 --> 02:27:14,024
We need to have an uprising of our own.

2395
02:27:14,664 --> 02:27:19,584
Citizenship, self-respect and
allow people to start rising up.

2396
02:27:20,874 --> 02:27:23,724
Taking the lead in
representing their communities.

2397
02:27:24,024 --> 02:27:25,194
That's what we have to do.

2398
02:27:25,194 --> 02:27:28,854
And that's what's going to end
up happening out of this because

2399
02:27:29,184 --> 02:27:32,724
I suspect it's going to get a
lot worse before it gets better.

2400
02:27:33,114 --> 02:27:36,264
And there's gonna be a point where
we're gonna have to have a choice.

2401
02:27:36,654 --> 02:27:38,844
Are we gonna be the America that was?

2402
02:27:39,229 --> 02:27:43,549
Put in place 250 years ago, are we
gonna be something totally different?

2403
02:27:43,789 --> 02:27:48,889
Because there's nothing anywhere in
the history of the world where a great

2404
02:27:48,889 --> 02:27:51,049
nation lasts much longer than 250 years.

2405
02:27:51,834 --> 02:27:55,344
Well, actually the, the, the record
is republics tend to get a couple of

2406
02:27:55,344 --> 02:27:58,974
hundred years and then they dissolve into
dictatorships, empires, and decadence,

2407
02:27:58,974 --> 02:28:00,114
which is the really worrying thing.

2408
02:28:00,324 --> 02:28:01,014
Well, that's it.

2409
02:28:01,014 --> 02:28:01,944
And that's what they do.

2410
02:28:02,034 --> 02:28:07,644
And the thing that makes our constitution
really fascinating and important, and

2411
02:28:07,644 --> 02:28:13,494
also the vast diversity of our nation,
of so many different people with so many

2412
02:28:13,494 --> 02:28:17,094
different cultures, I think can mitigate
that and we could remake ourselves.

2413
02:28:18,519 --> 02:28:23,859
But it's going to be a trial, and
my book is a testimony to that.

2414
02:28:24,039 --> 02:28:29,169
I see this as a way out and trying
to show people that here's a way

2415
02:28:29,169 --> 02:28:33,639
we move through this labyrinth of
mess that we're in, but it's not a

2416
02:28:33,639 --> 02:28:35,199
foregone conclusion that we will.

2417
02:28:35,209 --> 02:28:41,179
Um, so one thing that's been happening,
well, it's been happening for decades

2418
02:28:41,179 --> 02:28:45,889
now, but with alarming frequency
since January 20th, and since Donald

2419
02:28:45,889 --> 02:28:49,909
has been essentially unbound by the
corrupt, diligent and super majority

2420
02:28:49,909 --> 02:28:56,269
of the Supreme Court and an entirely
complacent Republican Congress that

2421
02:28:56,269 --> 02:28:59,454
seems perfectly willing to advocate
its own congressional, sorry,

2422
02:28:59,894 --> 02:29:02,734
constitutional responsibilities, Donald's.

2423
02:29:03,904 --> 02:29:09,634
Essentially trying with tax
American taxpayer money, uh, to

2424
02:29:09,664 --> 02:29:13,234
remake this country in his image,
both literally and metaphorically.

2425
02:29:13,624 --> 02:29:19,624
So in the last couple of weeks alone,
uh, he has, or in the last month say

2426
02:29:19,624 --> 02:29:22,204
he's renamed the Institute of Peace.

2427
02:29:22,699 --> 02:29:26,209
It's the Donald Trump Institute of
Peace, which is a particular kick

2428
02:29:26,209 --> 02:29:29,599
in the teeth considering, uh, it
was taken over by armed guards.

2429
02:29:29,629 --> 02:29:30,529
So that's always fun.

2430
02:29:30,949 --> 02:29:36,979
Uh, he's renamed the Kennedy Center
and uh, he continues to build a.

2431
02:29:37,669 --> 02:29:42,469
Now $400 million ballroom, which he
just admitted is a monument to him.

2432
02:29:42,469 --> 02:29:45,229
Plus we have the arc to
Trump to look forward to.

2433
02:29:45,769 --> 02:29:52,069
So, um, on the one hand that I, I think
that is, that is a reason, just more

2434
02:29:52,069 --> 02:29:57,019
reason to mock him and how pathetic and
needy and thirsty he is, but that also

2435
02:29:57,019 --> 02:29:59,209
does have very real world consequences.

2436
02:29:59,209 --> 02:30:01,769
So I wanted to talk, I wanted to
hear what you had to say mm-hmm.

2437
02:30:01,769 --> 02:30:03,074
About that aspect of it.

2438
02:30:03,724 --> 02:30:07,444
So we are living through all
of these things you mentioned.

2439
02:30:07,504 --> 02:30:12,934
They are, um, part of construction,
the construction of a personality cult.

2440
02:30:13,624 --> 02:30:19,324
And, uh, you know, his huge picture
on the outside of the Department of

2441
02:30:19,324 --> 02:30:24,364
Labor, all the things, uh, the other
pictures of him, his name everywhere.

2442
02:30:24,364 --> 02:30:26,254
This is what dictators do.

2443
02:30:26,254 --> 02:30:26,884
So that.

2444
02:30:27,439 --> 02:30:29,419
People can never forget about them.

2445
02:30:29,749 --> 02:30:33,259
That people think that they're always
the dictator's, always watching them.

2446
02:30:33,259 --> 02:30:35,269
He's, um, omnipresent.

2447
02:30:35,269 --> 02:30:37,729
He's everywhere and he's all powerful.

2448
02:30:38,119 --> 02:30:41,299
And the other part I found
interesting with the Kennedy Center

2449
02:30:41,299 --> 02:30:45,569
renaming is that in my, uh, work
in this, I have stuff on this.

2450
02:30:46,084 --> 02:30:50,104
Uh, in, in my book, strong Men, it's
like it's coming to life yet again.

2451
02:30:50,614 --> 02:30:58,264
Um, that, uh, because they're so insecure,
uh, the strong men have to kind of

2452
02:30:58,264 --> 02:31:01,384
vanquish those who have come before them.

2453
02:31:01,474 --> 02:31:03,424
And so any leader who.

2454
02:31:03,944 --> 02:31:07,124
In their country's history, who
might have been more popular or

2455
02:31:07,124 --> 02:31:12,944
more charismatic, or more handsome,
have to be erased or demeaned.

2456
02:31:13,214 --> 02:31:17,984
And so, uh, Kennedy, um, cannot stand.

2457
02:31:17,984 --> 02:31:21,284
It has to be Trump who
is replacing Kennedy.

2458
02:31:21,874 --> 02:31:27,304
And we all know how he keeps up his
campaign against Obama, and this is

2459
02:31:27,304 --> 02:31:30,214
typical of what this kind of leader does.

2460
02:31:30,394 --> 02:31:33,784
Everything has to be about them,
and they're the only heroes

2461
02:31:33,784 --> 02:31:35,374
who can exist in the universe.

2462
02:31:36,964 --> 02:31:37,804
Yes, indeed.

2463
02:31:37,864 --> 02:31:41,164
Uh, and I think for Donald,
that's obviously because he's

2464
02:31:41,164 --> 02:31:42,779
not a hero and he's incapable.

2465
02:31:42,779 --> 02:31:43,059
Mm-hmm.

2466
02:31:43,139 --> 02:31:47,374
He's character logically
incapable of being one.

2467
02:31:47,374 --> 02:31:48,724
And he's had opportunities.

2468
02:31:48,724 --> 02:31:52,294
He had an opportunity during COVID,
as a matter of fact, to do that,

2469
02:31:52,294 --> 02:31:57,004
and he did exactly the opposite,
um, and got a lot of us killed.

2470
02:31:57,094 --> 02:31:58,264
Um, but mm-hmm.

2471
02:31:58,894 --> 02:32:02,524
Another thing, and, and I, I've
been curious about this and wanted.

2472
02:32:03,034 --> 02:32:04,054
Asked you about this for a while.

2473
02:32:04,054 --> 02:32:09,244
'cause it's not, it's not simply
that Donald is, uh, flooding

2474
02:32:09,244 --> 02:32:13,414
all of our spaces with his image
or remaking them in his image.

2475
02:32:13,414 --> 02:32:17,074
We know that he, uh, as you
mentioned, he's, he is, uh,

2476
02:32:17,524 --> 02:32:18,694
on the Department of Labor.

2477
02:32:18,694 --> 02:32:22,054
He's also on the tickets to
get into national parks right

2478
02:32:22,059 --> 02:32:24,029
next to George Washington and.

2479
02:32:24,664 --> 02:32:28,834
Apparently there's going to be
a 250th anniversary coin with

2480
02:32:28,834 --> 02:32:30,724
his face on both sides of it.

2481
02:32:31,414 --> 02:32:36,304
Both sides, you know, just in case, you
know, uh, just in case one isn't enough.

2482
02:32:36,814 --> 02:32:39,904
Uh, but then there's also this, um.

2483
02:32:40,649 --> 02:32:45,089
Flooding of the zone with a
particular kind of culture.

2484
02:32:45,509 --> 02:32:48,839
So for, for many years now,
republicans have, have reviled

2485
02:32:48,839 --> 02:32:53,399
the left for are allegedly forcing
our elitism down their throats.

2486
02:32:53,819 --> 02:32:57,034
But it seems like what, what Donald
and the Trump regime were doing.

2487
02:32:57,559 --> 02:33:04,999
Is making it basically remaking everything
in the image of WWE or, uh, ultimate

2488
02:33:04,999 --> 02:33:07,969
fighting or monster trucks, what have you.

2489
02:33:08,389 --> 02:33:12,799
So, uh, this, I just wanna read
you a quote from John F. Kennedy,

2490
02:33:12,799 --> 02:33:15,979
which is etched on the facade of
the Kennedy Center, I believe.

2491
02:33:16,564 --> 02:33:20,164
I look forward to an America which will
not be afraid of grace and beauty, an

2492
02:33:20,164 --> 02:33:23,944
America, which will reward achievement
in the arts as we reward achievement in

2493
02:33:23,944 --> 02:33:28,414
business or a statecraft unquote, that
seems kind of like the, exactly the

2494
02:33:28,414 --> 02:33:30,574
opposite of the Trump regime's agenda.

2495
02:33:31,694 --> 02:33:35,384
One of the twists that Trump has
brought to the strongman formula is.

2496
02:33:35,504 --> 02:33:41,054
I mean, he, he, he's a master of
propaganda and every strongman uses

2497
02:33:41,054 --> 02:33:43,874
the state-of-the-art tools that he has.

2498
02:33:43,964 --> 02:33:47,354
It could be newsreels from
Mussolini or radio for Hitler

2499
02:33:47,354 --> 02:33:49,394
and social media for Trump.

2500
02:33:49,754 --> 02:33:55,904
But he's also brought this marriage
of celebrity, um, reality tv, but

2501
02:33:55,904 --> 02:33:58,229
not high culture, not art films.

2502
02:33:59,074 --> 02:34:04,984
Uh, but real, um, popular culture, uh,
and that's been part of his persona

2503
02:34:04,984 --> 02:34:08,614
since the start, as you mentioned,
with wrestling with reality tv.

2504
02:34:09,124 --> 02:34:14,464
And so he's, in a way, you know, people
could say he's cheapened the brand of the

2505
02:34:14,464 --> 02:34:18,724
presidency also by, um, becoming a vendor.

2506
02:34:19,074 --> 02:34:22,134
Uh, there are corruption
issues, of course, with that.

2507
02:34:22,584 --> 02:34:26,634
Um, you know, and he always had
his own Trump wine, Trump stakes

2508
02:34:26,634 --> 02:34:28,104
when he first ran for office.

2509
02:34:28,104 --> 02:34:33,414
He, he posed with his Trump stakes, um,
and that has cheapened the brand and

2510
02:34:33,414 --> 02:34:38,424
changed the presidency and made make
it more of a commercial enterprise,

2511
02:34:38,424 --> 02:34:40,579
which is really what authoritarians do.

2512
02:34:41,214 --> 02:34:45,744
The, the presidency and the chief
executive office are for sale.

2513
02:34:46,134 --> 02:34:47,059
Um, and when you get.

2514
02:34:47,629 --> 02:34:51,949
If you've been there long enough like
a Putin, it becomes a kleptocracy where

2515
02:34:51,949 --> 02:34:57,709
the whole state machinery is about, um,
enriching you personally and your cronies.

2516
02:34:58,819 --> 02:35:00,469
It seems like that's where we're headed.

2517
02:35:01,009 --> 02:35:03,659
Yes, I at a cki ocracy.

2518
02:35:04,379 --> 02:35:04,829
Yeah.

2519
02:35:04,859 --> 02:35:05,279
Yeah.

2520
02:35:05,309 --> 02:35:07,559
Be because already I've lost count.

2521
02:35:07,589 --> 02:35:12,239
Uh, you know, the count has to be revised
upwards every week of how much money,

2522
02:35:12,719 --> 02:35:18,509
uh, not just he, him personally, but also
uh, Trump businesses and thus his family.

2523
02:35:18,929 --> 02:35:24,059
Um, and then of course, this is classic
the family of the commerce secretary.

2524
02:35:24,179 --> 02:35:28,769
And so what, what you get is this kind
of, it's called the inner sanctum.

2525
02:35:29,219 --> 02:35:31,469
Uh, and these are
people, some are cabinet.

2526
02:35:32,329 --> 02:35:36,079
Like, uh, minister of com, the
Secretary of Commerce, and some

2527
02:35:36,079 --> 02:35:38,929
are hangers on or family members.

2528
02:35:38,929 --> 02:35:45,649
The wits, the, the Kushners and all of
them have to make deals and make money

2529
02:35:45,649 --> 02:35:48,319
from, uh, the leader being in office.

2530
02:35:48,379 --> 02:35:53,269
And so the dynamics that are unfolding
in the United States are exactly what

2531
02:35:53,269 --> 02:35:58,099
has happened in Hungary, in Turkey,
of course, in Russia and other places.

2532
02:35:59,039 --> 02:36:05,159
Yeah, I, I wanna shift gears, uh, in a
second, but just, are you surprised at

2533
02:36:05,159 --> 02:36:12,899
all by the, almost total capitulation
of any institutions or individuals,

2534
02:36:12,989 --> 02:36:19,079
uh, institutions a or individuals, uh,
in the Republican party to a person?

2535
02:36:19,079 --> 02:36:23,129
There seems to be literally
no pushback whatsoever.

2536
02:36:24,779 --> 02:36:31,739
Uh, I'm not surprised, uh, about the
party because he, uh, he being Trump and

2537
02:36:31,739 --> 02:36:36,869
Company used their power, uh, out when
they were out of, uh, when they were out

2538
02:36:36,869 --> 02:36:41,519
of office brilliantly to, to complete the
domestication of the Republican party.

2539
02:36:41,999 --> 02:36:46,559
And the main thing they did
was January 6th, which left,

2540
02:36:46,619 --> 02:36:50,489
uh, Republican, uh, members of
Congress running for their lives.

2541
02:36:51,359 --> 02:36:57,359
And one of the saddest things, um, is that
this was traumatic for everyone there.

2542
02:36:57,509 --> 02:37:02,279
Uh, and some people, certainly Mike
Pence, but others, uh, missed their

2543
02:37:02,279 --> 02:37:06,149
appointment with, uh, violence
by only 30 or 60 seconds, and you

2544
02:37:06,149 --> 02:37:07,589
don't forget something like that.

2545
02:37:07,979 --> 02:37:13,769
And yet, Trump required them to forget
their trauma, to bury it and to actually

2546
02:37:13,769 --> 02:37:17,009
proclaim that day as a patriotic day.

2547
02:37:17,639 --> 02:37:19,679
And so psychologically.

2548
02:37:20,269 --> 02:37:23,419
That was such a shock that
nobody's allowed to talk about

2549
02:37:23,869 --> 02:37:26,689
that, uh, that and other things.

2550
02:37:26,689 --> 02:37:30,409
Like his criminal trial, when
everybody, Matt Gates, everybody came

2551
02:37:30,409 --> 02:37:32,449
dressed as Trump to cheer him on.

2552
02:37:32,479 --> 02:37:35,209
There'd been all these, there
were all these occasions.

2553
02:37:35,209 --> 02:37:39,799
By the time he got back to office,
the party was completely domesticated.

2554
02:37:40,394 --> 02:37:42,704
Um, and so that doesn't surprise me.

2555
02:37:42,914 --> 02:37:48,794
What, what I've been more surprised
is, um, people like Tim Cook, um,

2556
02:37:48,824 --> 02:37:54,014
people who have the means and the
power just on their own, but certainly

2557
02:37:54,014 --> 02:37:56,024
along with others, uh, at their level.

2558
02:37:57,174 --> 02:38:03,684
To oppose, to oppose Trump and to actually
make a difference in saving our democracy.

2559
02:38:04,044 --> 02:38:08,694
And instead all of them decided to
fold and become collaborators and

2560
02:38:08,694 --> 02:38:10,524
give him trophies and presence.

2561
02:38:10,524 --> 02:38:12,984
And that's, that's very dispiriting.

2562
02:38:13,014 --> 02:38:14,724
'cause they don't have to do this.

2563
02:38:14,724 --> 02:38:17,514
They actually have the power
and the means not to do it.

2564
02:38:18,284 --> 02:38:18,614
Yeah.

2565
02:38:18,614 --> 02:38:23,954
And I, I think it's also fair to say
that by capitulating the, we have,

2566
02:38:23,954 --> 02:38:28,394
instead of joining together and
creating United Force against, uh, the.

2567
02:38:29,159 --> 02:38:34,889
Um, this corrupt, uh,
autocratic government we know

2568
02:38:34,979 --> 02:38:36,659
or faced with it increase it.

2569
02:38:36,704 --> 02:38:39,989
It increases the size on the target of
the backs of people who don't have power

2570
02:38:40,079 --> 02:38:41,579
and means that's, uh, to fight back.

2571
02:38:41,879 --> 02:38:44,579
So it is that, that's the tragedy.

2572
02:38:44,909 --> 02:38:49,559
And, and, but that's the, the kind of
making an example that autocrats do,

2573
02:38:49,559 --> 02:38:51,809
that's an autocrat gain making example.

2574
02:38:51,959 --> 02:38:56,429
And if one folds or they get
one to become corrupted, it's an

2575
02:38:56,429 --> 02:38:58,289
example that you better do it too.

2576
02:38:58,544 --> 02:39:01,724
Um, or you or look what can happen to you.

2577
02:39:02,219 --> 02:39:05,819
And finally, section C
authoritarian nostalgia

2578
02:39:06,152 --> 02:39:13,472
So how did you move from
studying museum pieces and art

2579
02:39:13,472 --> 02:39:16,532
crime into, uh, into monuments?

2580
02:39:17,162 --> 02:39:23,942
Well, so my PhD is in ancient Greek
and Roman arts, and when monuments

2581
02:39:23,942 --> 02:39:28,112
began being protested in the summer
of 2020 after the murder of George

2582
02:39:28,112 --> 02:39:32,042
Floyd, people were commenting
online like, isn't this a civilized

2583
02:39:32,042 --> 02:39:33,872
people don't take down monuments?

2584
02:39:34,172 --> 02:39:36,212
Um, this is horrible.

2585
02:39:36,212 --> 02:39:39,872
And, and I was thinking, well,
studying the ancient world, everything

2586
02:39:39,872 --> 02:39:41,312
that I study has been at one point.

2587
02:39:41,882 --> 02:39:46,052
Torn down and thrown into a pit and
then buried for thousands of years.

2588
02:39:46,172 --> 02:39:48,512
Uh, we actually, as
humans, this is what we do.

2589
02:39:48,722 --> 02:39:52,022
We make monuments and then we tear
them down as soon as we decide

2590
02:39:52,022 --> 02:39:53,222
we wanna honor somebody else.

2591
02:39:53,222 --> 02:39:55,502
So I thought I could maybe add some.

2592
02:39:56,612 --> 02:40:02,702
Perspective, uh, and then having my
skills in researching fraud, I started

2593
02:40:02,702 --> 02:40:07,142
to realize that so many of the most
controversial monuments in the US were

2594
02:40:07,142 --> 02:40:12,152
essentially fundraising scams, uh,
where a bunch of money was embezzled

2595
02:40:12,152 --> 02:40:16,262
from, from people who wanted to support
racism, essentially by putting up

2596
02:40:16,262 --> 02:40:18,122
giant monuments to white supremacy.

2597
02:40:18,182 --> 02:40:20,792
So I thought, you know, maybe
that's some interesting information

2598
02:40:20,792 --> 02:40:21,782
for our current debates.

2599
02:40:21,997 --> 02:40:23,497
They got got As they should.

2600
02:40:23,497 --> 02:40:23,587
Yeah.

2601
02:40:24,422 --> 02:40:24,912
Yeah, yeah.

2602
02:40:25,897 --> 02:40:29,587
As somebody who grew up in the South, I
would just say like, as a, a young black

2603
02:40:29,587 --> 02:40:34,357
man growing up in the shadow of these
monuments, watching them go down, um,

2604
02:40:34,417 --> 02:40:41,047
felt like finally, finally, this country
was recognizing me in some small way.

2605
02:40:41,817 --> 02:40:47,697
And I was completely unsurprised at
the uproar from a lot of people who

2606
02:40:47,697 --> 02:40:49,467
wanted to keep these monuments up.

2607
02:40:49,707 --> 02:40:53,517
But the, when you dig into like
why these monuments were placed

2608
02:40:53,517 --> 02:40:54,897
down, a lot of 'em were done.

2609
02:40:54,897 --> 02:40:57,747
Just, especially when we're talking
about civil war monuments in, in,

2610
02:40:57,747 --> 02:40:59,157
in the South and in other places.

2611
02:40:59,637 --> 02:41:00,357
They were primarily.

2612
02:41:01,202 --> 02:41:07,742
Put there to silence or, or to intimidate,
um, the black population in the set area.

2613
02:41:08,372 --> 02:41:08,552
Yeah.

2614
02:41:08,552 --> 02:41:10,022
I call them victory monuments.

2615
02:41:10,022 --> 02:41:13,142
They're not about the defeat of
the confederates, they're about the

2616
02:41:13,142 --> 02:41:19,232
victory of Jim Crow and other means of
reclaiming political and economic power

2617
02:41:19,232 --> 02:41:21,212
for the white population of the south.

2618
02:41:21,422 --> 02:41:21,902
Yeah.

2619
02:41:22,177 --> 02:41:22,477
And so.

2620
02:41:23,172 --> 02:41:27,462
Talk to me a little bit about
the monuments themselves and how

2621
02:41:27,762 --> 02:41:29,412
a lot of those were, were scams.

2622
02:41:29,412 --> 02:41:31,332
Like I, I had never heard of that before.

2623
02:41:32,352 --> 02:41:37,092
So, um, for example, just outside of
Atlanta in Stone Mountain, Georgia

2624
02:41:37,092 --> 02:41:41,472
is the world's largest Confederate
monument, a gigantic carving into

2625
02:41:41,472 --> 02:41:47,352
the side of a cliff of, um, Lee
and Jackson and Jefferson Davis.

2626
02:41:48,482 --> 02:41:55,772
That was launched in 1914 by a sculptor,
Gutzon Borglum, working with the

2627
02:41:55,772 --> 02:41:57,512
United Daughters of the Confederacy.

2628
02:41:57,812 --> 02:42:01,022
The Klan enthusiastically
embraced the project.

2629
02:42:01,172 --> 02:42:03,092
They stacked the board.

2630
02:42:03,152 --> 02:42:05,042
They took a bunch of the donations.

2631
02:42:05,577 --> 02:42:11,847
Essentially no progress was made for
years and years and years until the 1950s

2632
02:42:11,877 --> 02:42:16,017
when as a sign of resistance to Brown
V Board, the state of Georgia took over

2633
02:42:16,017 --> 02:42:21,147
the monument and finally finished it
so it wasn't finished until the 1970s.

2634
02:42:21,482 --> 02:42:26,402
And to me it's, the makers said it
should be a shrine to the south.

2635
02:42:26,402 --> 02:42:28,232
It's more like a shrine to a scam.

2636
02:42:28,622 --> 02:42:33,302
The Klan leaders who, who led the
project even fired Borglum at a

2637
02:42:33,302 --> 02:42:36,242
certain point 'cause they thought
he was taking too much money.

2638
02:42:36,662 --> 02:42:40,952
Uh, but he landed on his feet
because he persuaded some, uh, Dakota

2639
02:42:40,952 --> 02:42:44,192
businessman to sponsor him to carve
what turned into Mount Rushmore.

2640
02:42:44,192 --> 02:42:45,692
So he defected from.

2641
02:42:46,082 --> 02:42:50,372
Glorifying the Confederacy to
carve, uh, a monument to the union.

2642
02:42:50,372 --> 02:42:53,762
So he didn't really care about
the, the glory of the Confederacy.

2643
02:42:53,762 --> 02:42:55,052
He just wanted to make some money.

2644
02:42:55,532 --> 02:42:59,357
So in the United States, how
have monuments, you know,

2645
02:42:59,757 --> 02:43:00,397
historically been funded?

2646
02:43:01,832 --> 02:43:05,402
Well, the American government,
both state and federal, has always

2647
02:43:05,402 --> 02:43:08,972
been a bit of a cheapskate when
it comes to putting up public art.

2648
02:43:09,302 --> 02:43:15,182
So most monuments that we see were
actually privately fundraised,

2649
02:43:15,182 --> 02:43:18,812
planned, and then donated to
local governments, so they're not.

2650
02:43:19,172 --> 02:43:20,582
Really public art.

2651
02:43:21,152 --> 02:43:25,682
They were put up by small
groups, uh, for reasons.

2652
02:43:26,012 --> 02:43:29,582
If you look for example, at the
Confederate Monument that used

2653
02:43:29,582 --> 02:43:32,162
to be in Birmingham, Alabama.

2654
02:43:32,162 --> 02:43:35,312
This is a little weird that Birmingham
had a Confederate monument in the first

2655
02:43:35,312 --> 02:43:39,512
place because they were founded as a city,
well after the close of the Civil War.

2656
02:43:40,022 --> 02:43:44,642
Um, and the monument went up in
two parts, both of which were.

2657
02:43:45,287 --> 02:43:49,187
In response to interracial
unionization efforts.

2658
02:43:49,517 --> 02:43:54,107
Uh, so the leaders of the, the
owners and managers of the mines,

2659
02:43:54,167 --> 02:43:57,697
uh, when the miners were threatening
to strike, said, no, no, no, no, no.

2660
02:43:57,697 --> 02:44:03,017
We need to remind our white workers
that they have to keep maintaining

2661
02:44:03,017 --> 02:44:05,927
the segregation that their fathers
or grandfathers fought for.

2662
02:44:05,927 --> 02:44:07,697
So let's put up this Civil War monument.

2663
02:44:07,757 --> 02:44:11,237
Um, so monuments don't tell you very.

2664
02:44:11,567 --> 02:44:15,887
Detailed versions of history, but also
even thinking about history is kind

2665
02:44:15,887 --> 02:44:17,357
of leading you on the wrong track.

2666
02:44:17,357 --> 02:44:20,897
When you look at, well, who is
actually paying for these Monument

2667
02:44:20,897 --> 02:44:23,657
mibi put up and who, what did
they actually want from them?

2668
02:44:23,987 --> 02:44:28,097
So tell me, like, just pulling back
a little bit, what's the relationship

2669
02:44:28,097 --> 02:44:29,662
between monuments and society?

2670
02:44:30,302 --> 02:44:33,782
Monuments are our visions of the future.

2671
02:44:34,292 --> 02:44:40,352
We put up a monument when we want
people to aspire to that condition.

2672
02:44:40,742 --> 02:44:44,282
Uh, we put up monuments to
honor people, to inspire people

2673
02:44:44,282 --> 02:44:45,722
to follow their examples.

2674
02:44:45,962 --> 02:44:48,842
So that sounds good and cheerful, right?

2675
02:44:48,842 --> 02:44:51,812
It's nothing wrong with having
models and aspirations, but you

2676
02:44:51,812 --> 02:44:52,832
kind of have to think about.

2677
02:44:53,222 --> 02:44:56,582
Monuments are expensive, so who
has the money to pay for them?

2678
02:44:56,642 --> 02:44:58,442
Who has the political power to.

2679
02:44:58,517 --> 02:45:03,197
Put them in place permanently, and
you'll often see that monuments are

2680
02:45:03,197 --> 02:45:09,227
used to try and shape a community into
a different form that it currently has.

2681
02:45:09,467 --> 02:45:15,677
I live in New York City, for example, and
almost all of the monuments put up into

2682
02:45:15,737 --> 02:45:18,412
the last few decades are of, of white men.

2683
02:45:19,152 --> 02:45:22,932
And what kind of message does that
send to this incredibly diverse

2684
02:45:22,932 --> 02:45:25,302
community of who deserves honor?

2685
02:45:25,572 --> 02:45:30,822
And, and you said earlier that like
throughout time we have erected

2686
02:45:30,822 --> 02:45:32,892
monuments and taken them down.

2687
02:45:32,892 --> 02:45:34,702
Can you kind of talk that
cycle through with me?

2688
02:45:35,302 --> 02:45:38,002
Yeah, well take the Romans for example.

2689
02:45:38,392 --> 02:45:43,132
Uh, Roman emperors would win a
victory at war and put up a big

2690
02:45:43,132 --> 02:45:48,922
victory monument, um, a triumphal
arch or portraits of themselves.

2691
02:45:49,342 --> 02:45:54,442
Uh, and then after the emperor died,
the Senate would vote and decide

2692
02:45:54,442 --> 02:45:55,612
was this a good owner or a bad one?

2693
02:45:55,912 --> 02:45:58,732
Do we want to decide officially that.

2694
02:45:58,787 --> 02:46:02,507
They have become a deity and
are to be honored forever, or do

2695
02:46:02,507 --> 02:46:04,247
we want to forget their memory.

2696
02:46:04,697 --> 02:46:09,197
And it was about, um, a third, a
third, a third, a third was no vote.

2697
02:46:09,227 --> 02:46:10,697
A third were deities.

2698
02:46:10,697 --> 02:46:12,167
A third were their memories.

2699
02:46:12,197 --> 02:46:15,227
Um, were subjected to what
we call dumb NIO memorial.

2700
02:46:16,217 --> 02:46:20,147
And if that happened to you, they
would chisel the face off your

2701
02:46:20,207 --> 02:46:22,877
statues and carve on your successor.

2702
02:46:23,267 --> 02:46:27,287
Uh, the Romans were, were
thrifty that way they reused.

2703
02:46:27,287 --> 02:46:27,347
Wow.

2704
02:46:27,347 --> 02:46:28,157
So they recycled.

2705
02:46:28,367 --> 02:46:29,702
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2706
02:46:30,952 --> 02:46:31,172
Wow.

2707
02:46:31,637 --> 02:46:38,507
Or they would break things up, um, or melt
it down and make it into induced statue.

2708
02:46:38,537 --> 02:46:45,797
So this was a pretty common, um,
strategy of, uh, just like we do it

2709
02:46:45,797 --> 02:46:47,807
in a, a much more peaceable form.

2710
02:46:47,957 --> 02:46:52,007
When a new president is, uh,
elected, you take down the photo

2711
02:46:52,007 --> 02:46:55,007
of the current president from
the, the post office and put up.

2712
02:46:55,152 --> 02:46:57,672
The successor or, uh,
et cetera, et cetera.

2713
02:46:57,702 --> 02:47:02,922
So, uh, if in the, in the ancient world,
they had a, a more intense version of

2714
02:47:02,922 --> 02:47:08,802
this, but you can think about the tearing
down of statues of Saddam after, uh, his

2715
02:47:08,802 --> 02:47:15,552
fall or the, the removal of statues of, of
Lenin across the Soviet satellite states.

2716
02:47:15,552 --> 02:47:21,132
This is something that we do, and there
are changes in power, and usually we don't

2717
02:47:21,192 --> 02:47:24,072
notice it because it's more peaceful.

2718
02:47:24,842 --> 02:47:30,692
Uh, there's an official removal of,
uh, the signs of the previous regime

2719
02:47:30,692 --> 02:47:32,522
and a substitution with the others.

2720
02:47:32,822 --> 02:47:37,022
So what was special and different
about the summer of 2020 was,

2721
02:47:37,412 --> 02:47:40,052
um, the change came from below.

2722
02:47:40,052 --> 02:47:41,072
It was unofficial.

2723
02:47:41,312 --> 02:47:45,782
Uh, we mostly saw people not tearing
down monuments with their bare hands.

2724
02:47:45,782 --> 02:47:50,462
Uh, that's obviously hard to do, but
modifying monuments by adding paints,

2725
02:47:50,462 --> 02:47:52,832
signage, projections, et cetera.

2726
02:47:53,467 --> 02:47:56,257
we want the museums to talk
about the history of our country

2727
02:47:56,257 --> 02:48:00,127
in a fair manner, not in a woke
manner or in a racist manner.

2728
02:48:00,277 --> 02:48:02,527
Brian Stevenson is in Chicago.

2729
02:48:02,527 --> 02:48:03,157
Brian, good morning.

2730
02:48:04,192 --> 02:48:04,642
Good morning.

2731
02:48:04,642 --> 02:48:05,272
Good to be with you.

2732
02:48:05,272 --> 02:48:06,022
Good to have you here.

2733
02:48:06,022 --> 02:48:11,512
When you hear your president talk about
the museums in your country as being woke

2734
02:48:11,542 --> 02:48:12,922
and racist, what goes through your mind?

2735
02:48:13,192 --> 02:48:14,932
Well, I think it's very misinformed.

2736
02:48:14,932 --> 02:48:18,952
I doubt, uh, the president has actually
been to any of the museums that he's

2737
02:48:18,952 --> 02:48:21,532
accusing of this distortion of history.

2738
02:48:21,622 --> 02:48:26,662
I actually think we've made a little
progress in the last decade in helping

2739
02:48:26,662 --> 02:48:30,922
our nation more honestly reckon with our
history, the African American History

2740
02:48:30,922 --> 02:48:32,872
Museum in Washington, the Smithsonian.

2741
02:48:32,872 --> 02:48:37,382
Mm. Didn't open until 2015, which meant
that for most of America's history we

2742
02:48:37,382 --> 02:48:39,332
didn't have a cultural institution.

2743
02:48:39,752 --> 02:48:41,852
The federal government supported that.

2744
02:48:41,852 --> 02:48:46,172
Talked honestly about the legacy of
slavery or, or segregation or lynching.

2745
02:48:46,802 --> 02:48:51,302
We still have a really remarkable
absence of cultural institutions that

2746
02:48:51,302 --> 02:48:53,552
deal honestly with, uh, this history.

2747
02:48:53,552 --> 02:48:56,342
That's the reason why we
created our legacy sites.

2748
02:48:56,852 --> 02:49:00,152
But the other thing that crosses my mind
when I hear the president say that is

2749
02:49:00,152 --> 02:49:02,942
I think he is going to burden general.

2750
02:49:03,032 --> 02:49:07,622
Rations of Americans with the same
weight, the same contamination, the same

2751
02:49:07,622 --> 02:49:11,252
pollution that Mayan generation inherited.

2752
02:49:11,252 --> 02:49:14,942
We have a history of, of slavery,
of racial injustice, and I think

2753
02:49:14,942 --> 02:49:16,412
it's corrupted the atmosphere.

2754
02:49:16,412 --> 02:49:18,542
It's like toxins in the atmosphere.

2755
02:49:18,542 --> 02:49:21,452
And if we just had the courage to
talk honestly about this past, I think

2756
02:49:21,452 --> 02:49:23,282
we could get to something better.

2757
02:49:23,282 --> 02:49:25,682
Why do you think some Americans
don't wanna talk about the

2758
02:49:25,682 --> 02:49:27,362
parts of your history that.

2759
02:49:28,037 --> 02:49:32,507
Are really uncomfortable, whether it's
slavery or lynching, or segregation,

2760
02:49:32,627 --> 02:49:33,652
why do they avoid talking about that?

2761
02:49:35,002 --> 02:49:36,682
Well, I think we've never had to.

2762
02:49:36,802 --> 02:49:42,142
I look at what happened in South Africa
after the collapse of apartheid, you

2763
02:49:42,142 --> 02:49:43,732
know, a black majority took over.

2764
02:49:43,732 --> 02:49:48,052
They were able to shape the future
and they insisted on a process

2765
02:49:48,052 --> 02:49:49,672
of truth and reconciliation.

2766
02:49:49,672 --> 02:49:54,922
And I think that helped that country
move forward by giving space to the black

2767
02:49:54,922 --> 02:49:58,852
victims of apartheid to, to talk about
their harm, their trauma, their suffering.

2768
02:49:59,512 --> 02:50:00,712
It did something important.

2769
02:50:01,087 --> 02:50:04,447
And a handful of perpetrators
also gave voice to their regret

2770
02:50:04,447 --> 02:50:06,067
and that did something important.

2771
02:50:06,727 --> 02:50:09,997
In Germany, you see a nation that
has reckoned with the history of the

2772
02:50:09,997 --> 02:50:11,917
Holocaust in a pretty radical way.

2773
02:50:12,397 --> 02:50:15,187
The Holocaust Memorial is
in the center of Berlin.

2774
02:50:15,607 --> 02:50:20,257
Students in Germany are required, uh, to
study the history of the Holocaust, and

2775
02:50:20,257 --> 02:50:22,267
I think that has helped that country.

2776
02:50:22,552 --> 02:50:24,592
Move into the 21st century.

2777
02:50:24,862 --> 02:50:27,562
They were the villain of the 20th
century, but now they're considered

2778
02:50:27,562 --> 02:50:31,042
an ally, a strong partner, a believer
in democracy, and they're not

2779
02:50:31,042 --> 02:50:33,322
perfect, but they've made progress.

2780
02:50:34,027 --> 02:50:37,417
In the United States, we haven't
made that same commitment.

2781
02:50:37,417 --> 02:50:41,137
And you have to understand, a
black majority took over, uh, after

2782
02:50:41,137 --> 02:50:45,277
the apartheid collapse in South
Africa, the Nazis lost the war,

2783
02:50:45,637 --> 02:50:47,377
and so there was a shift in power.

2784
02:50:47,377 --> 02:50:52,597
There's never really been a shift in
power in the United States, even the

2785
02:50:52,597 --> 02:50:55,007
Civil War, uh, which was fought over the.

2786
02:50:55,172 --> 02:50:56,822
The institution of slavery.

2787
02:50:57,242 --> 02:51:01,382
Um, I've always believed that the
great evil of slavery wasn't an

2788
02:51:01,382 --> 02:51:05,522
involuntary servitude and forced
labor, bondage, humiliation, violence,

2789
02:51:05,522 --> 02:51:06,872
all of those things were horrific.

2790
02:51:06,872 --> 02:51:11,582
The great evil though of slavery, for
me, the enduring evil was the enduring

2791
02:51:11,582 --> 02:51:15,752
narrative of racial difference that
we created to justify enslavement.

2792
02:51:16,252 --> 02:51:19,252
People who enslaved, other people
didn't wanna think of themselves as

2793
02:51:19,252 --> 02:51:21,742
immoral or indecent or unchristian.

2794
02:51:22,102 --> 02:51:25,972
And so how do you feel decent when
you're pulling away mothers from their

2795
02:51:25,972 --> 02:51:28,912
screaming children, knowing those
mothers will never see those children

2796
02:51:28,912 --> 02:51:30,112
again because you're selling them?

2797
02:51:30,112 --> 02:51:31,132
Well, you need a narrative.

2798
02:51:31,762 --> 02:51:34,942
And we created a false narrative
in America where we said that black

2799
02:51:34,942 --> 02:51:36,592
people aren't as good as white people.

2800
02:51:37,162 --> 02:51:41,062
And that narrative gave
rise to an ideology of white

2801
02:51:41,062 --> 02:51:42,832
supremacy, of racial hierarchy.

2802
02:51:42,862 --> 02:51:44,632
And the North won the Civil War.

2803
02:51:44,827 --> 02:51:49,987
But the south one, the narrative war,
those ideas persisted past the Civil War.

2804
02:51:50,137 --> 02:51:52,447
That, that's the narrative
struggle that you've talked about.

2805
02:51:52,537 --> 02:51:54,872
Um, that's, that's playing out right
now in the United States, you believe.

2806
02:51:55,807 --> 02:51:56,677
Absolutely.

2807
02:51:56,677 --> 02:52:00,487
I mean, I do think we are in the midst of
a narrative struggle, and I believe it is

2808
02:52:00,487 --> 02:52:05,407
our generation, my generation and younger
people who now must take up this struggle.

2809
02:52:05,887 --> 02:52:07,747
And I put this in historical context.

2810
02:52:07,747 --> 02:52:09,967
When you're enslaved, you
have to focus on freedom.

2811
02:52:10,537 --> 02:52:14,917
The enslaved in this country couldn't get
to the narrative 'cause they had to focus

2812
02:52:14,917 --> 02:52:19,427
on their freedom during the first half
of the 20th century we're dealing with.

2813
02:52:19,507 --> 02:52:23,107
With racial terrorism throughout
the American South, and when

2814
02:52:23,107 --> 02:52:26,737
you're being terrorized like that,
you have to focus on security.

2815
02:52:27,307 --> 02:52:31,777
In the 1950s and sixties, we had a
courageous generation who had gotten

2816
02:52:31,777 --> 02:52:35,587
to a slightly more secure place and
they began focusing on civil rights.

2817
02:52:36,097 --> 02:52:40,327
And that generation of civil rights
activism made it possible for me and

2818
02:52:40,327 --> 02:52:45,007
people of my generation to get college
degrees, to get professional degrees.

2819
02:52:45,007 --> 02:52:49,777
And now we're finally positioned to
engage in the narrative struggle to

2820
02:52:49,777 --> 02:52:54,787
confront this false idea of racial
hierarchy and white supremacy and

2821
02:52:54,787 --> 02:52:57,217
racial difference to push this nation.

2822
02:52:57,432 --> 02:52:59,112
To something better.

2823
02:52:59,502 --> 02:53:04,122
And museums and literature and
content, creative content are the

2824
02:53:04,122 --> 02:53:07,662
beginnings of this struggle, and
you're seeing a reaction against it.

2825
02:53:08,172 --> 02:53:10,842
And the only thing I would stress
on that is whenever there has been

2826
02:53:10,842 --> 02:53:15,402
a forward step when abolitionists
began talking about ending slavery,

2827
02:53:15,432 --> 02:53:16,962
uh, the South reacted violent.

2828
02:53:17,547 --> 02:53:20,667
They made it a capital crime
for an enslaved person to be in

2829
02:53:20,667 --> 02:53:22,287
possession of abolitionist material.

2830
02:53:22,497 --> 02:53:25,257
During the time of terror violence,
they burned down the home of

2831
02:53:25,257 --> 02:53:28,827
Ida B. Wells for her activism
against terrorism and lynching.

2832
02:53:29,247 --> 02:53:32,662
During the Civil Rights movement, black
people were, were threatened and meed

2833
02:53:32,662 --> 02:53:35,097
and and fired, and people were killed.

2834
02:53:35,427 --> 02:53:38,787
Segregation was calcified in
some areas, but we prevailed.

2835
02:53:39,267 --> 02:53:41,397
And so you're now seeing, I think that.

2836
02:53:41,577 --> 02:53:47,457
Moment of resistance to progress in
the comments of President Trump and

2837
02:53:47,457 --> 02:53:52,947
many others who are characterizing a
future unburdened by racial inequality,

2838
02:53:52,977 --> 02:53:57,117
a future unburdened by this legacy
of slavery and lynching as woke.

2839
02:53:57,597 --> 02:53:59,877
When I see it as just a Better America.

2840
02:53:59,877 --> 02:54:05,157
A Greater America America that has
the opportunity to be all that we

2841
02:54:05,157 --> 02:54:08,637
talk about in our language, in our
constitution and in our literature.

2842
02:54:08,667 --> 02:54:11,577
Practically, what should those
institutions that receive federal

2843
02:54:11,577 --> 02:54:16,017
funding like the Smithsonian do when
the president says he wants their

2844
02:54:16,017 --> 02:54:19,707
funding to be reviewed, but also their
exhibits to be reviewed so that they,

2845
02:54:19,707 --> 02:54:22,557
they show the brightness of America,
what should they do, do you think?

2846
02:54:23,767 --> 02:54:27,322
I, I really think they have to resist,
and I know that's not comfortable.

2847
02:54:27,472 --> 02:54:30,652
I know that's not, is that, is that prac,
is that practical for them given that the,

2848
02:54:30,652 --> 02:54:31,807
the federal funding that they receive.

2849
02:54:32,902 --> 02:54:34,027
I, I, I think it is.

2850
02:54:34,087 --> 02:54:37,537
I mean, I, I, I say this, I should
qualify my comments because our sites,

2851
02:54:37,597 --> 02:54:40,627
uh, we didn't take a penny of federal
funding when we built our sites.

2852
02:54:40,632 --> 02:54:43,267
And, and so it's easier for
me to take this position.

2853
02:54:43,267 --> 02:54:44,227
I wanna acknowledge that.

2854
02:54:44,227 --> 02:54:45,457
I say we didn't take a penny.

2855
02:54:45,607 --> 02:54:48,127
We were actually never
offered a penny for our sites.

2856
02:54:48,127 --> 02:54:53,827
But I don't think we can let
funding sources shape control and.

2857
02:54:54,102 --> 02:54:57,732
Strict the content in cultural
institutions because cultural

2858
02:54:57,792 --> 02:54:59,622
institutions lose their integrity.

2859
02:55:00,042 --> 02:55:03,492
They lose their credibility, they
lose their purpose when they are

2860
02:55:03,492 --> 02:55:08,772
censored and sanctioned, and so it
may mean that they're going to have

2861
02:55:08,772 --> 02:55:10,507
to shift to a model that relies.

2862
02:55:10,832 --> 02:55:16,412
Entirely on private support, but I really
believe that's a better way forward.

2863
02:55:16,472 --> 02:55:19,472
Uh, even though our cultural
institutions don't get federal funding,

2864
02:55:19,472 --> 02:55:21,632
we are a nonprofit organization.

2865
02:55:22,112 --> 02:55:24,662
You know, the government may come
after us and say, we're gonna take

2866
02:55:24,662 --> 02:55:29,342
away your 5 0 1 C3 status, which is
a status that allows people to donate

2867
02:55:29,342 --> 02:55:31,892
to us and then get tax credits.

2868
02:55:32,372 --> 02:55:35,612
If you take away that status,
it'll be much harder for us.

2869
02:55:35,972 --> 02:55:38,432
But as I've said before,
I would rather be.

2870
02:55:38,487 --> 02:55:43,647
Taxed and a truth teller than
to be silent and untaxed.

2871
02:55:43,647 --> 02:55:44,052
What, what?

2872
02:55:44,212 --> 02:55:46,437
I just think that What about, what
about beyond cultural institutions?

2873
02:55:46,437 --> 02:55:47,292
I mean, it's, you also have.

2874
02:55:48,112 --> 02:55:51,562
You have law firms, you have
universities, you have newspapers

2875
02:55:51,562 --> 02:55:55,132
that fear, retribution and fear.

2876
02:55:55,162 --> 02:55:55,252
Yeah.

2877
02:55:55,252 --> 02:55:58,042
That they need to bend the knee and
they say that they have to do this.

2878
02:55:58,042 --> 02:56:00,862
The leaders of those institutions,
and we saw this particularly in the,

2879
02:56:00,862 --> 02:56:03,862
the law firms say that they have to do
it because they don't have a choice.

2880
02:56:03,922 --> 02:56:07,042
That if they don't, to your point,
the, the administration could

2881
02:56:07,042 --> 02:56:08,662
come after them and destroy them.

2882
02:56:09,482 --> 02:56:11,342
Yeah, I think they do have a choice.

2883
02:56:11,402 --> 02:56:16,292
Uh, many law firms accommodated the
president's, uh, demands and gave

2884
02:56:16,292 --> 02:56:18,482
into this, but many law firms didn't.

2885
02:56:18,932 --> 02:56:20,162
They resisted.

2886
02:56:20,402 --> 02:56:24,362
They sued, and I think
they have come out of that.

2887
02:56:24,532 --> 02:56:28,552
Chapter as victors as the
institutions to respect.

2888
02:56:29,002 --> 02:56:34,012
Many educational institutions are
pushing back, uh, they're saying no.

2889
02:56:34,072 --> 02:56:36,472
And yes, there will be cost to that.

2890
02:56:36,472 --> 02:56:39,322
And I think there's never a
way to move toward justice.

2891
02:56:39,322 --> 02:56:42,922
There's never a way to achieve the kind
of freedom that many of us believe in

2892
02:56:43,522 --> 02:56:45,317
Without cost, it's never been true.

2893
02:56:45,537 --> 02:56:48,412
And during the time of
enslavement, there were huge costs.

2894
02:56:48,802 --> 02:56:50,392
During the time of lynching, huge costs.

2895
02:56:50,392 --> 02:56:52,462
The civil rights movement
was never comfortable.

2896
02:56:52,677 --> 02:56:54,117
It was never convenient.

2897
02:56:54,477 --> 02:56:57,267
People would be on their knees
praying for the right to vote.

2898
02:56:57,267 --> 02:57:00,477
They'd get beaten and
battered and bloodied.

2899
02:57:00,837 --> 02:57:03,417
They'd go home, change their
clothes, wipe the blood off, and

2900
02:57:03,417 --> 02:57:04,557
they'd go back and do it again.

2901
02:57:04,557 --> 02:57:08,847
And for me, that is the lesson
that I'm taking into this moment.

2902
02:57:08,937 --> 02:57:13,797
Yes, there will be consequences to
standing up when people say, sit down

2903
02:57:13,797 --> 02:57:16,017
to speaking when people say, be quiet.

2904
02:57:16,407 --> 02:57:17,997
But those consequences.

2905
02:57:18,192 --> 02:57:23,712
Part far less than the consequences
of tolerating bigotry, giving into

2906
02:57:23,712 --> 02:57:27,492
authoritarianism, and I think that's
the best moments in world history

2907
02:57:27,492 --> 02:57:31,512
are the moments when people said
no at great cost that said no.

2908
02:57:31,512 --> 02:57:35,082
Even though it might mean that
they lose something, we're not

2909
02:57:35,082 --> 02:57:37,452
doing it just to be oppositional.

2910
02:57:37,902 --> 02:57:40,512
We're doing it because we
believe there's something better.

2911
02:57:40,512 --> 02:57:40,997
I talk about.

2912
02:57:41,612 --> 02:57:45,692
Slavery and lynching and segregation,
not because I wanna punish America.

2913
02:57:46,322 --> 02:57:49,082
I talk about these institutions
because I wanna liberate us.

2914
02:57:49,442 --> 02:57:52,712
I wanna create a nation where the
children of our children are no longer

2915
02:57:52,712 --> 02:57:57,092
burdened by this history, where black
kids are not presumed dangerous and

2916
02:57:57,092 --> 02:58:01,652
guilty because of their color, where
white and black and brown communities

2917
02:58:01,652 --> 02:58:06,212
have an opportunity to relate with one
another without the scourge, the, the

2918
02:58:06,212 --> 02:58:08,312
bigotry, the violence of our history.

2919
02:58:08,647 --> 02:58:10,627
Constraining those relationships.

2920
02:58:10,987 --> 02:58:15,097
So given everything you both have said,
which is we're in this unusual position

2921
02:58:15,157 --> 02:58:20,167
where the federal government is a major
actor in, what do we wanna call it?

2922
02:58:20,167 --> 02:58:22,417
Storing whitewashing history,

2923
02:58:22,417 --> 02:58:22,927
both

2924
02:58:22,927 --> 02:58:24,937
prey history, all of the
history, any of those.

2925
02:58:25,327 --> 02:58:30,817
Um, it's Black History Month, which is
this month in this year, in this moment.

2926
02:58:32,047 --> 02:58:35,767
Is there an argument for
thinking of or practicing Black

2927
02:58:35,767 --> 02:58:37,207
History Month differently?

2928
02:58:37,627 --> 02:58:39,637
You know, I, I, I've been
thinking a lot about this.

2929
02:58:39,697 --> 02:58:44,347
Um, I was recently in New Orleans
for Mardi Gras and I bring my kids.

2930
02:58:44,347 --> 02:58:45,217
I'm from New Orleans.

2931
02:58:45,217 --> 02:58:45,967
That's my hometown.

2932
02:58:46,327 --> 02:58:47,647
Uh, my parents still live there.

2933
02:58:47,857 --> 02:58:48,877
Happy Fat Tuesday.

2934
02:58:48,877 --> 02:58:49,357
There you go.

2935
02:58:49,627 --> 02:58:50,137
Um.

2936
02:58:50,827 --> 02:58:54,787
And I, I want my kids to have, I bring
my kids often to New Orleans 'cause

2937
02:58:54,817 --> 02:58:56,947
it's a place that means a lot to me.

2938
02:58:57,007 --> 02:58:59,827
Uh, and I want them to have
a connection to that city.

2939
02:59:00,247 --> 02:59:03,517
And one of the things that we did kind
of between the, the celebrations and the

2940
02:59:03,517 --> 02:59:09,547
festivals and the parades is we got in the
car with my mom and went to her elementary

2941
02:59:09,547 --> 02:59:10,777
school, which is no longer there.

2942
02:59:10,777 --> 02:59:12,487
It's a school that was called T.J. Semmes.

2943
02:59:13,087 --> 02:59:20,287
And we went there because my mom was among
the first black students to desegregate.

2944
02:59:20,767 --> 02:59:22,267
That school or to integrate that school.

2945
02:59:22,627 --> 02:59:25,657
She was there after, you know,
there were the four little girls,

2946
02:59:25,657 --> 02:59:30,007
including Ruby Bridges, who integrated
New Orleans schools in 1960, and I

2947
02:59:30,097 --> 02:59:35,467
brought my kids there with my mom
in this moment because I've been

2948
02:59:35,467 --> 02:59:41,407
thinking a lot about what it means for
people to understand black history.

2949
02:59:41,677 --> 02:59:44,857
Not only is something is like
about Rosa Parks and Frederick

2950
02:59:44,857 --> 02:59:47,857
Douglass and Martin Luther King,
but also is this thing that's.

2951
02:59:48,277 --> 02:59:49,837
The people who are
right next to us, right?

2952
02:59:49,837 --> 02:59:53,617
Like their grandmother, not Martin Luther
King, not Rosa Parks, not these people

2953
02:59:53,617 --> 02:59:57,187
in the books, like their grandmother
was among the first wave of students

2954
02:59:57,187 --> 03:00:00,007
to integrate a school in New Orleans.

2955
03:00:00,007 --> 03:00:02,797
And I want them both to understand
them, that because of their

2956
03:00:02,797 --> 03:00:05,882
proximity to it, but also in this
specific moment, I think it's.

2957
03:00:06,592 --> 03:00:10,312
A reminder that like they can, the Trump
administration can try to change a museum.

2958
03:00:10,672 --> 03:00:13,762
They can try to change how
things are taught in school.

2959
03:00:13,762 --> 03:00:16,462
They can try to take
away DEI in higher ed.

2960
03:00:16,492 --> 03:00:18,082
They can try to do all of these things.

2961
03:00:18,472 --> 03:00:23,182
But we still, within the sort of micro
units of families and communities still

2962
03:00:23,182 --> 03:00:29,062
have the power to share this history in
ways that I think can be really meaningful

2963
03:00:29,362 --> 03:00:30,832
for all of us and for young people.

2964
03:00:30,832 --> 03:00:31,882
And, and it wasn't just for my kids.

2965
03:00:31,882 --> 03:00:36,202
Like I got to hear my mom talk about
her experience going into this school.

2966
03:00:36,502 --> 03:00:38,752
I think all of these things, for
me, when I think of Black History

2967
03:00:38,752 --> 03:00:43,372
Month, it's about both understanding
and appreciating the sort of Jackie

2968
03:00:43,372 --> 03:00:47,902
Robinsons and, and the like, but
it's also about remembering that.

2969
03:00:48,502 --> 03:00:53,812
Those larger figures are only
possible because of the sort of what's

2970
03:00:53,812 --> 03:00:56,242
happening on the most granular level.

2971
03:00:56,902 --> 03:00:58,882
And actually to that point,
right, it it is to say that.

2972
03:00:59,362 --> 03:01:01,582
It's the actions of
each individual, right?

2973
03:01:01,582 --> 03:01:04,822
It is you think historically,
it's like, oh, well, Frederick

2974
03:01:04,822 --> 03:01:07,402
Douglass actually didn't have to
write those things that he wrote.

2975
03:01:07,552 --> 03:01:10,642
Um, and they, they praised him because it
was like, oh, that was a, that was a, you

2976
03:01:10,642 --> 03:01:12,622
know, really brave thing of you to do.

2977
03:01:12,922 --> 03:01:17,007
Our grandparents didn't have to
send a. Our moms and dads to the

2978
03:01:17,007 --> 03:01:18,117
schools that they send them to.

2979
03:01:18,117 --> 03:01:19,167
A lot of people didn't.

2980
03:01:19,172 --> 03:01:19,392
Right,

2981
03:01:19,527 --> 03:01:19,797
right.

2982
03:01:19,797 --> 03:01:22,437
Where it's like, actually it's a
little bit too dangerous to do that.

2983
03:01:22,467 --> 03:01:23,637
Um, and similarly, right?

2984
03:01:23,637 --> 03:01:27,687
My, my mom was born in 1963
in Alabama where, you know,

2985
03:01:27,687 --> 03:01:29,307
four little girls were killed.

2986
03:01:29,667 --> 03:01:32,757
And a church, you know, this, this
sanctuary, the place where you're

2987
03:01:32,757 --> 03:01:34,077
supposed to feel safest, right?

2988
03:01:34,107 --> 03:01:38,397
This is, this is living history that,
that, that individuals experience

2989
03:01:38,427 --> 03:01:40,527
and continue to experience.

2990
03:01:40,557 --> 03:01:42,957
Um, and it's the individual
actions that people take

2991
03:01:43,287 --> 03:01:44,187
and, and why.

2992
03:01:44,652 --> 03:01:50,022
Is it important to remember
history and its difficulty?

2993
03:01:50,262 --> 03:01:55,242
Like, you know, even within families,
people keep secrets for decades and

2994
03:01:55,242 --> 03:01:58,872
decades, and they don't like to talk
about the bad things that happen.

2995
03:01:58,872 --> 03:02:00,822
It's a common human impulse.

2996
03:02:00,822 --> 03:02:05,532
So why is it important to
remember something like what

2997
03:02:05,532 --> 03:02:06,402
your mother went through?

2998
03:02:07,167 --> 03:02:10,972
I, I tell people all the time,
America is a place that has provided

2999
03:02:11,362 --> 03:02:14,902
unparalleled, unimaginable opportunities
for millions of people across

3000
03:02:14,902 --> 03:02:18,322
generations in ways that their own
ancestors could have never imagined.

3001
03:02:18,952 --> 03:02:22,792
It is also done so at the direct
expense of millions and millions

3002
03:02:22,792 --> 03:02:26,272
of other people, and both of those
things are the story of America.

3003
03:02:26,272 --> 03:02:27,712
It's not one over here and one over there.

3004
03:02:27,712 --> 03:02:29,332
You get to pick this one
and not pick that one.

3005
03:02:29,332 --> 03:02:32,002
Both of those things are the story of
this country, and you have to hold.

3006
03:02:32,557 --> 03:02:34,507
Both of those realities
alongside one another.

3007
03:02:35,587 --> 03:02:35,707
Why?

3008
03:02:36,127 --> 03:02:40,567
Well, I think when we think of ourselves,
when I think of who I am as a person, I'm

3009
03:02:40,567 --> 03:02:44,497
someone who's done things in my life that
I'm proud of, and I'm someone who's done

3010
03:02:44,497 --> 03:02:47,677
things in my life that I'm not proud of
because I'm human and I make mistakes.

3011
03:02:47,677 --> 03:02:51,007
And what I try to do and what I
try to teach my children is you.

3012
03:02:51,067 --> 03:02:52,477
Acknowledge those mistakes.

3013
03:02:52,837 --> 03:02:55,567
You try to learn from those
mistakes to become a better

3014
03:02:55,567 --> 03:02:57,817
version of yourself in the future.

3015
03:02:57,817 --> 03:03:00,607
And so if that's the standard that I
hold myself to the standard, I hold

3016
03:03:00,607 --> 03:03:04,477
my children to the standard I hold my
friends and loved ones to, why would I

3017
03:03:04,477 --> 03:03:06,877
not hold my country to that same standard?

3018
03:03:06,877 --> 03:03:10,357
And I think the implications for
it are that if you don't, like I,

3019
03:03:10,417 --> 03:03:12,217
I remember being a kid growing up.

3020
03:03:12,417 --> 03:03:16,737
In the nineties in New Orleans and being
inundated with these messages about all

3021
03:03:16,737 --> 03:03:19,137
the things that were wrong with black
people, that the reason there was no,

3022
03:03:19,437 --> 03:03:24,027
there was so much violence and poverty
and, and inequality in the black community

3023
03:03:24,027 --> 03:03:27,207
was because of something that black
people had done or it failed to do.

3024
03:03:27,207 --> 03:03:29,757
And it was coming from the media,
it was coming from politicians, it

3025
03:03:29,757 --> 03:03:33,507
was coming from celebrities, it was
coming from, you know, everywhere.

3026
03:03:34,372 --> 03:03:38,452
And I remember this feeling of hearing
these messages and not having the

3027
03:03:38,452 --> 03:03:42,112
historical context or intellectual toolkit
with which to push back against it.

3028
03:03:42,142 --> 03:03:46,792
And what I felt and experienced as a
child was a sort of, uh, paralysis, it

3029
03:03:46,792 --> 03:03:49,972
was like an emotional paralysis where
I knew what I was hearing was wrong.

3030
03:03:50,362 --> 03:03:52,132
But I didn't know how to say it was wrong.

3031
03:03:52,162 --> 03:03:53,332
I didn't have that language.

3032
03:03:53,332 --> 03:03:57,112
And it wasn't until years later when
I encountered the scholarship and I

3033
03:03:57,112 --> 03:04:00,262
encountered the art and I encountered
the film and I encountered the, the

3034
03:04:00,262 --> 03:04:03,532
history that explained that like, oh,
the reason one part of New Orleans

3035
03:04:03,532 --> 03:04:05,902
looks one way and another part
of New Orleans looks another way.

3036
03:04:06,232 --> 03:04:08,092
It's not 'cause of the
people in those communities.

3037
03:04:08,362 --> 03:04:11,212
It's 'cause what has been done to those
communities or what's been extracted

3038
03:04:11,212 --> 03:04:14,122
from those communities, generation
after generation, after generation.

3039
03:04:14,122 --> 03:04:18,562
And when you learn that history,
it is so profoundly freeing and so

3040
03:04:18,562 --> 03:04:23,362
profoundly liberating because this
country can't lie to you anymore.

3041
03:04:24,487 --> 03:04:29,347
Adam this week, there was a pushback
against this trend we're describing from

3042
03:04:29,347 --> 03:04:33,457
a federal judge who ruled about the panels
at what's known as the President's house

3043
03:04:33,457 --> 03:04:35,137
in Philadelphia that were taken down.

3044
03:04:35,587 --> 03:04:37,507
It was quite a strong ruling.

3045
03:04:37,597 --> 03:04:38,737
She quoted Orwell.

3046
03:04:38,917 --> 03:04:43,117
She said, an agency cannot
arbitrarily decide what is true.

3047
03:04:43,597 --> 03:04:45,397
How significant is that ruling?

3048
03:04:45,547 --> 03:04:47,452
Like, have you seen other
kinds of pushback like that?

3049
03:04:48,322 --> 03:04:52,432
We have seen, um, federal judges
push back, um, pretty forcefully

3050
03:04:52,462 --> 03:04:57,172
against the Trump administration
dictates, um, their executive orders

3051
03:04:57,232 --> 03:04:58,792
and maneuvers that they made, right?

3052
03:04:58,792 --> 03:05:02,092
Whether that is removing the placards
without consulting the city, um,

3053
03:05:02,122 --> 03:05:07,432
in an effort to sort of say that
the history that they want, um, to

3054
03:05:07,432 --> 03:05:09,742
say is, is a true history, right?

3055
03:05:10,102 --> 03:05:12,622
The order functionally
says, right, this is.

3056
03:05:13,867 --> 03:05:19,237
It can't just hinge on whether there's a
transfer of power, um, what we actually

3057
03:05:19,237 --> 03:05:20,587
believe about what we're saying.

3058
03:05:20,587 --> 03:05:20,827
Right.

3059
03:05:20,827 --> 03:05:24,247
It is a very Orwellian view
of the way we do history.

3060
03:05:24,247 --> 03:05:24,427
Right.

3061
03:05:24,427 --> 03:05:25,987
And it is, I think.

3062
03:05:26,392 --> 03:05:31,702
Americans, um, people generally think
of history in a different way than

3063
03:05:31,702 --> 03:05:33,502
scholars think of history, right?

3064
03:05:33,742 --> 03:05:39,832
Where yes, there are places and dates
and names, um, but how those things

3065
03:05:39,832 --> 03:05:44,482
are remembered is sort of subject to
your interpretation oftentimes, but.

3066
03:05:45,292 --> 03:05:47,722
There are realities.

3067
03:05:47,872 --> 03:05:52,222
The fact that George Washington
transported people back and forth and

3068
03:05:52,222 --> 03:05:56,542
wrote to other people to say that,
Hey, how can I get around this law

3069
03:05:56,542 --> 03:06:00,472
that says that I can't keep people here
for longer than this period of time?

3070
03:06:00,862 --> 03:06:01,912
Those are just realities.

3071
03:06:01,912 --> 03:06:04,732
You cannot change the
facts of the situation.

3072
03:06:04,732 --> 03:06:08,062
You can only change how you
remember those facts, and if you

3073
03:06:08,062 --> 03:06:13,042
decide to publicly display those
facts, and in a sense, right.

3074
03:06:14,212 --> 03:06:18,982
What we have seen over the last year
and change in a really aggressive

3075
03:06:18,982 --> 03:06:25,822
fashion is that effort to remove
those public memories of the

3076
03:06:25,822 --> 03:06:28,162
facts that happen in this country.

3077
03:06:28,252 --> 03:06:28,642
Although that.

3078
03:06:29,272 --> 03:06:33,052
That conversation about facts does
often confuse me a little bit.

3079
03:06:33,052 --> 03:06:36,412
Like what we do do is decide
which facts we're gonna present.

3080
03:06:36,412 --> 03:06:36,502
Mm-hmm.

3081
03:06:36,802 --> 03:06:38,902
Which is what the Trump
administration is saying.

3082
03:06:38,902 --> 03:06:41,122
Like, why do we have to
put those on display?

3083
03:06:41,302 --> 03:06:41,722
You know,

3084
03:06:42,232 --> 03:06:44,452
I mean, I think it goes back
to what we were saying before.

3085
03:06:44,452 --> 03:06:47,632
It it part of what you, I
was a high school teacher.

3086
03:06:47,662 --> 03:06:47,752
Mm-hmm.

3087
03:06:47,992 --> 03:06:52,582
And so, you know, I'm, I feel
very strongly about the idea that.

3088
03:06:53,422 --> 03:06:57,412
You know, so the, the Trump administration
would suggest that the part of why, you

3089
03:06:57,412 --> 03:07:01,072
know, you shouldn't teach so much about
Washington owning slaves or Jefferson

3090
03:07:01,072 --> 03:07:05,182
owning slave people, or, um, you know,
why the presidential house should remove

3091
03:07:05,182 --> 03:07:09,982
these things is because they, they
don't want, they would say, because

3092
03:07:09,982 --> 03:07:11,782
they don't want so much emphasis on it.

3093
03:07:11,932 --> 03:07:16,852
And they would say that teachers,
um, and, and museums are attempting

3094
03:07:16,852 --> 03:07:18,352
to indoctrinate students.

3095
03:07:18,352 --> 03:07:20,107
They're using the language
of indoctrination.

3096
03:07:21,202 --> 03:07:28,882
And what I find to be true is that
there is this attempt to conflate or

3097
03:07:28,882 --> 03:07:34,732
to make it so that the teaching of
empiricism, like of primary source

3098
03:07:34,732 --> 03:07:40,582
realities to suggest that that is somehow
an ideological project rather than.

3099
03:07:40,837 --> 03:07:42,487
Uh, an empirical one, right?

3100
03:07:42,487 --> 03:07:45,997
What the, the idea that what you have
to do, what I tried to do when I was

3101
03:07:45,997 --> 03:07:50,797
a teacher and what I tried to do as a
someone who writes about history is not

3102
03:07:50,797 --> 03:07:54,667
necessarily to convince the reader to.

3103
03:07:54,997 --> 03:07:58,537
Believe X or believe Y, but
it is to lay out all of it.

3104
03:07:58,567 --> 03:08:03,547
I'm actually not interested in if you
think Thomas Jefferson was evil or good.

3105
03:08:03,877 --> 03:08:08,707
What I do want you to do is sit with
the fact that he both wrote Declaration

3106
03:08:08,707 --> 03:08:12,367
of Independence, and he also wrote
notes to the state of Virginia that

3107
03:08:12,367 --> 03:08:16,027
black people are inferior to whites
in both endowments of body and mind.

3108
03:08:16,297 --> 03:08:19,087
What I want you to do is to sit
with the fact that he wrote, you

3109
03:08:19,087 --> 03:08:20,737
know that all men are created equal.

3110
03:08:21,072 --> 03:08:24,522
And that he enslaved 600 people,
including four of his own children.

3111
03:08:25,212 --> 03:08:29,322
My role is not to tell you what
to think, but what I do have

3112
03:08:29,322 --> 03:08:31,002
to do is present the evidence.

3113
03:08:31,152 --> 03:08:33,402
What a teacher does have to
do is present the evidence.

3114
03:08:33,402 --> 03:08:38,532
What a museum does have to do is present
the evidence to say, this is the totality.

3115
03:08:38,892 --> 03:08:40,392
This is the full picture.

3116
03:08:40,782 --> 03:08:44,772
Obviously the thing that I focus my
time and attention on, which is not

3117
03:08:44,772 --> 03:08:47,292
global is, is domestic elections.

3118
03:08:47,922 --> 03:08:54,162
And I just want to like, give you a
rundown of how I see where we stand.

3119
03:08:54,432 --> 03:08:55,932
Um, Donald Trump has.

3120
03:08:56,862 --> 03:09:01,422
In the last few weeks said, uh, he
laments the fact that he did not

3121
03:09:01,422 --> 03:09:06,462
send the National Guard to seize
ballot boxes after the 2020 election.

3122
03:09:06,462 --> 03:09:10,212
That was a statement he gave in an
interview to the New York Times.

3123
03:09:10,212 --> 03:09:11,292
Anyone can go read it.

3124
03:09:11,322 --> 03:09:12,432
Um, on their website.

3125
03:09:12,462 --> 03:09:18,192
He, uh, said that, uh, uh, no
incumbent president wants to have

3126
03:09:18,192 --> 03:09:20,712
midterm elections and he doesn't think
we should have midterm elections.

3127
03:09:20,712 --> 03:09:20,952
Now.

3128
03:09:20,952 --> 03:09:23,472
His press secretary said he was joking.

3129
03:09:23,652 --> 03:09:24,072
You can.

3130
03:09:24,862 --> 03:09:25,672
Check for yourself.

3131
03:09:25,672 --> 03:09:28,942
It doesn't in context what he
told Reuters, who he told this

3132
03:09:28,942 --> 03:09:30,352
to, doesn't look like a joke.

3133
03:09:30,592 --> 03:09:31,912
They didn't report as a joke.

3134
03:09:31,942 --> 03:09:33,982
So that's the cancellation of elections.

3135
03:09:34,012 --> 03:09:40,552
He, uh, announced, uh, at the World
Economic Forum, the Davos, uh, speech,

3136
03:09:40,822 --> 03:09:44,512
uh, what he called breaking news,
uh, which I thought was interesting.

3137
03:09:44,842 --> 03:09:48,772
Uh, that, uh, that, uh, there will be, uh.

3138
03:09:48,937 --> 03:09:53,917
Prosecutions of people who were
involved in the 2020 election.

3139
03:09:54,037 --> 03:09:58,507
Um, I don't know exactly what he has
in mind, but presumably it's either p

3140
03:09:58,987 --> 03:10:04,177
Biden or states or people around the
Biden campaign or election officials

3141
03:10:04,177 --> 03:10:08,347
who, who knows what it is, but that
he, he, uh, uh, he said that, and

3142
03:10:08,377 --> 03:10:10,177
this, these are just the recent things.

3143
03:10:10,177 --> 03:10:14,317
Obviously he continues to say the
elections are rigged, uh, and he has.

3144
03:10:14,537 --> 03:10:22,547
Continued to disparage, um, the voting
voters Voting laws wants to control the

3145
03:10:22,547 --> 03:10:24,977
method of voting ban mail-in ballots.

3146
03:10:24,977 --> 03:10:29,717
He's, his Department of Justice is
suing 24 states and the District of

3147
03:10:29,717 --> 03:10:32,117
Columbia to access sensitive voting data.

3148
03:10:32,267 --> 03:10:35,897
I mean, it's kind of like from
the legal to the rhetorical, to

3149
03:10:35,927 --> 03:10:38,087
the authoritarian to whatever.

3150
03:10:38,417 --> 03:10:41,657
It's kind of a constant
drumbeat from him where.

3151
03:10:41,857 --> 03:10:48,307
Do authoritarian stand relative to
elections because one of the things that

3152
03:10:48,307 --> 03:10:52,987
I keep hearing experts in, um, Orban.

3153
03:10:53,812 --> 03:10:59,692
Say that is hopeful is that, you
know, he was able to consolidate

3154
03:10:59,692 --> 03:11:03,862
electoral power because there was a
central election commission or some,

3155
03:11:04,132 --> 03:11:08,542
some central body that allowed him to
essentially, eventually rig the rules.

3156
03:11:08,542 --> 03:11:09,982
But that number one, that took him time.

3157
03:11:10,472 --> 03:11:14,732
Um, and number two, that, you know,
the United States doesn't have that

3158
03:11:14,732 --> 03:11:18,812
and therefore, um, uh, we don't really
need to worry about this with Trump.

3159
03:11:18,842 --> 03:11:20,222
I buy that and I don't, right?

3160
03:11:20,222 --> 03:11:22,982
Like, so I buy it in that we
don't have a centralized system.

3161
03:11:22,982 --> 03:11:26,762
Elections, we have local elections,
uh, and we have state elections.

3162
03:11:26,792 --> 03:11:28,022
We're gonna have elections.

3163
03:11:28,022 --> 03:11:30,722
So Donald Trump can't cancel
them because they are state run.

3164
03:11:31,202 --> 03:11:36,422
But that, that decentralized
nature is both a, um.

3165
03:11:36,832 --> 03:11:39,772
An opportunity for him
and a, and a drawback.

3166
03:11:39,772 --> 03:11:41,662
And the drawback is exactly as people say.

3167
03:11:41,662 --> 03:11:45,352
Like he doesn't control every, uh,
you know, he can't issue one decree

3168
03:11:45,352 --> 03:11:46,702
to a federal election official.

3169
03:11:46,732 --> 03:11:51,652
The flip side is though that, you know,
when we talk about election threats.

3170
03:11:51,987 --> 03:11:54,687
The visibility of those
of us in the pro-democracy

3171
03:11:54,687 --> 03:11:56,487
movement is, is also limited.

3172
03:11:56,517 --> 03:12:00,027
Like, you know, he, Donald Trump
has inspired a lot of really

3173
03:12:00,027 --> 03:12:04,437
bad people to, to be in election
offices or to intimidate voters.

3174
03:12:04,437 --> 03:12:08,547
And that highly decentralized system
also makes it really hard to tackle those

3175
03:12:08,547 --> 03:12:12,747
problems because, you know, I sometimes,
uh, would say leading into 2024.

3176
03:12:13,482 --> 03:12:15,222
They'd say, are you worried
about certification?

3177
03:12:15,222 --> 03:12:16,752
I'd say, I'm very worried
about certification.

3178
03:12:16,752 --> 03:12:19,092
They'd say, but don't you have
lawyers and aren't the ags ready?

3179
03:12:19,092 --> 03:12:20,412
And I'd say, look, here's the thing.

3180
03:12:20,862 --> 03:12:23,502
Um, you know, let's just take Minnesota.

3181
03:12:23,532 --> 03:12:26,892
'cause I, I was not an example, I used
them, but it's on top of mind right now.

3182
03:12:26,892 --> 03:12:28,542
Minnesota's got 87 counties.

3183
03:12:28,602 --> 03:12:30,882
So like, sure could, could we.

3184
03:12:31,482 --> 03:12:35,952
Prevent there from being a certification
crisis in Hennepin County or Minneapolis

3185
03:12:35,952 --> 03:12:41,532
is, and Ramsey County where St. Paul
is and you know, in Duluth and, but

3186
03:12:41,532 --> 03:12:44,292
like are there enough private lawyers?

3187
03:12:44,292 --> 03:12:46,872
Does the ags office have
enough lawyers to go into.

3188
03:12:46,997 --> 03:12:48,227
87 counties.

3189
03:12:48,227 --> 03:12:49,967
And by the way, Minnesota's
not the large, doesn't have the

3190
03:12:49,967 --> 03:12:51,047
largest number of jurisdictions.

3191
03:12:51,347 --> 03:12:54,617
You have states like, uh, Wisconsin,
where they certify at the town level.

3192
03:12:54,617 --> 03:12:57,467
Uh, you're talking about thousand
more than a thousand jurisdictions.

3193
03:12:57,767 --> 03:13:02,687
So that, that it's, it's both an
opportunity and a drawback if Donald

3194
03:13:02,687 --> 03:13:08,477
Trump is able to inspire and if he is
able to use these paramilitary, you

3195
03:13:08,477 --> 03:13:12,077
know, I don't know what, I don't know if
paramilitary is the right term, but the,

3196
03:13:12,077 --> 03:13:14,102
these sort of state, you know, these, uh.

3197
03:13:14,427 --> 03:13:17,067
Federal government, ice type people.

3198
03:13:17,067 --> 03:13:17,967
As you say, it's a big country.

3199
03:13:17,967 --> 03:13:20,217
It's a geographical and
a logistical problem.

3200
03:13:20,667 --> 03:13:25,887
I'm curious, um, though from the
non-legal standpoint, why do you think

3201
03:13:25,947 --> 03:13:28,857
he views this rhetoric as helpful to him?

3202
03:13:29,547 --> 03:13:32,997
Uh, is maybe my first question,
and then how seriously should

3203
03:13:32,997 --> 03:13:33,927
we take it as the second?

3204
03:13:34,047 --> 03:13:37,407
Well, he keeps using it because
it worked beautifully for him.

3205
03:13:37,682 --> 03:13:42,902
Um, he's, he's one of the most skilled
propagandist in history and he, from the

3206
03:13:42,902 --> 03:13:48,302
second he started on the campaign trail in
2015, he started talking about elections.

3207
03:13:48,302 --> 03:13:48,572
So.

3208
03:13:48,922 --> 03:13:53,212
So we had year, people had years and
years of him, um, sowing distrust

3209
03:13:53,242 --> 03:13:57,262
with the election system and all the
aspects of it that you mentioned.

3210
03:13:57,562 --> 03:13:59,872
And then this is, it's unbelievable.

3211
03:13:59,872 --> 03:14:03,112
He got tens of millions of people
to think that he didn't, that

3212
03:14:03,112 --> 03:14:07,582
he didn't, that he won the 2020
election and he wasn't working in

3213
03:14:07,582 --> 03:14:10,132
a one party state like, uh, Duche.

3214
03:14:10,897 --> 03:14:15,907
He was working in, in a democracy,
uh, that had an open media and he

3215
03:14:15,907 --> 03:14:18,367
still got these people to believe.

3216
03:14:18,427 --> 03:14:20,647
And so he became like the wronged leader.

3217
03:14:21,247 --> 03:14:24,637
You know, during the Biden years
and then he had January 6th.

3218
03:14:24,697 --> 03:14:26,377
Wasn't Orban able to do that also though?

3219
03:14:26,437 --> 03:14:27,037
Yes.

3220
03:14:27,037 --> 03:14:30,547
Orban, Orban did a lot of things
like that, but Orban didn't

3221
03:14:30,697 --> 03:14:34,207
convince tens of millions of
people that he won an election.

3222
03:14:34,627 --> 03:14:39,547
Um, and nor did Orban stage a an
insurrection to, to try and, you

3223
03:14:39,547 --> 03:14:44,287
know, that he convinced people
that was wrong, writing a wrong.

3224
03:14:44,812 --> 03:14:45,532
Uh, right.

3225
03:14:45,532 --> 03:14:48,652
You know, like avenging a stolen election.

3226
03:14:48,652 --> 03:14:49,882
That was the whole rationale.

3227
03:14:49,942 --> 03:14:53,422
And that's officially the rationale
now on the White House, uh, webpage.

3228
03:14:53,482 --> 03:14:53,752
Right?

3229
03:14:53,782 --> 03:14:58,042
He's used this and it's worked for him
before, so he's gonna keep using it.

3230
03:14:58,282 --> 03:15:02,062
And the thing about autocrats is
that it, it does take a long time

3231
03:15:02,452 --> 03:15:06,622
for them to escalate, usually with
elections and one thing they do.

3232
03:15:07,057 --> 03:15:10,987
Um, they do a lot of things you
already mentioned, but a key thing

3233
03:15:10,987 --> 03:15:14,977
is that you've gotta get rid of
anybody who is a major rival.

3234
03:15:15,457 --> 03:15:20,197
And so, uh, one of those people
in Russia was Alexia Navalny who

3235
03:15:20,197 --> 03:15:24,277
started, and, and this is why we
never ever give up on elections.

3236
03:15:24,397 --> 03:15:29,377
Uh, one of my mantras is you use every
tool that and space you have available

3237
03:15:29,377 --> 03:15:33,517
to you and you, and as long as you have
elections, you never give up on them.

3238
03:15:33,697 --> 03:15:34,867
Never give up on voting.

3239
03:15:35,167 --> 03:15:39,997
And so it was when Putin cracked
down after 2012 that Navalny

3240
03:15:39,997 --> 03:15:41,917
started to run for office.

3241
03:15:42,487 --> 03:15:43,867
He ran for the mayor of Moscow.

3242
03:15:43,867 --> 03:15:46,897
Then he wanted to be on the
president on the presidential ballot.

3243
03:15:46,927 --> 03:15:52,207
Putin escalated his work against him,
work poisoning, jailing because he

3244
03:15:52,207 --> 03:15:53,887
needed to get rid of him as a candidate.

3245
03:15:53,977 --> 03:15:57,847
And then the same thing happened
to, uh, Ekrem İmamoğlu the mayor

3246
03:15:57,847 --> 03:16:00,007
of Istanbul in Turkey, who.

3247
03:16:00,772 --> 03:16:01,762
Clearly would've.

3248
03:16:01,912 --> 03:16:06,592
He won the, he won against all
expectations, uh, on an affordability

3249
03:16:06,592 --> 03:16:10,072
platform, similar to the New
York mayoral race and radical

3250
03:16:10,072 --> 03:16:12,292
love empathy, hugging people.

3251
03:16:12,442 --> 03:16:14,422
So he is unbeatable, great charisma.

3252
03:16:14,422 --> 03:16:18,052
Erdogan tried for years to, didn't
know what to do with this guy,

3253
03:16:18,562 --> 03:16:22,207
and, uh, tried to invalidate his,
you know, high school diploma or

3254
03:16:22,207 --> 03:16:23,722
college diploma, so he couldn't run.

3255
03:16:23,902 --> 03:16:25,162
Finally, he jailed him.

3256
03:16:26,002 --> 03:16:33,802
And so they game the system by, um,
sowing distrust by, um, getting, you know,

3257
03:16:34,132 --> 03:16:38,302
hollowing out institutions and getting
the right meaning wrong for democracy.

3258
03:16:38,512 --> 03:16:40,882
Election officials,
judges, very important.

3259
03:16:40,882 --> 03:16:43,942
If you have election tribunals,
you gotta clear the decks

3260
03:16:43,942 --> 03:16:45,772
of all pro-democracy people.

3261
03:16:46,072 --> 03:16:50,242
The last resort, you start
jailing or killing any rivals.

3262
03:16:50,272 --> 03:16:54,622
And so that's, but you keep the
elections going and so Erdogan says.

3263
03:16:54,967 --> 03:16:57,967
I'm not a dictator because
Turkey has elections.

3264
03:16:59,077 --> 03:17:01,507
So, so that's the menu there.

3265
03:17:01,597 --> 03:17:04,897
I had a back and forth, uh, with
Tim Miller, whose podcast I love.

3266
03:17:04,897 --> 03:17:09,277
He and I were on M-S-N-B-C together and
we, we, I think I was thinking too much

3267
03:17:09,277 --> 03:17:14,887
like a lawyer and maybe, uh, he was right,
but we were talking about popular opinion.

3268
03:17:14,947 --> 03:17:17,467
He said Donald Trump is really
weak because his popularity is low.

3269
03:17:17,467 --> 03:17:20,407
And I was like, I don't think Donald
Trump cares about his popularity.

3270
03:17:20,407 --> 03:17:25,507
He seems pretty strong to me because like
he is, you know, doing all these things.

3271
03:17:25,777 --> 03:17:26,407
Um.

3272
03:17:26,802 --> 03:17:29,082
How much do they care?

3273
03:17:29,202 --> 03:17:32,232
Like how much does public
opinion outside of the, obviously

3274
03:17:32,232 --> 03:17:33,522
the electoral context, right?

3275
03:17:33,732 --> 03:17:37,452
But like how much does just, does
like raw popularity versus non

3276
03:17:37,452 --> 03:17:41,712
popularity matter to an authoritarians
ability to get stuff done?

3277
03:17:41,862 --> 03:17:42,522
They do care.

3278
03:17:42,522 --> 03:17:44,472
I'm kind of in the middle
between you and Tim.

3279
03:17:44,772 --> 03:17:50,922
The reason that, um, that Trump, uh, did
that horrible AI video of him basically

3280
03:17:50,922 --> 03:17:53,232
throwing his own excrement on, um.

3281
03:17:53,902 --> 03:17:58,342
Uh, voters, and that's, that tells
you they, they despise their people.

3282
03:17:58,882 --> 03:18:02,302
They meaning, they despise the people
who don't love them, who are not

3283
03:18:02,302 --> 03:18:03,892
cheering for them because really.

3284
03:18:04,477 --> 03:18:08,257
Who would they be if people
didn't show up for their rallies

3285
03:18:08,257 --> 03:18:09,697
and cheer them and love them?

3286
03:18:09,727 --> 03:18:12,847
And they have like a
bottomless need for adulation.

3287
03:18:13,237 --> 03:18:18,727
And, and because of that, because they're
actually very fragile, insecure PE-people,

3288
03:18:19,147 --> 03:18:21,187
um, that's why they have the grievances.

3289
03:18:21,187 --> 03:18:26,617
And if you don't love them, if you
protest or, or, uh, you know, mobilize.

3290
03:18:27,112 --> 03:18:31,372
Uh, in the legal realm, legal
resistance, whatever form of resistance,

3291
03:18:31,372 --> 03:18:34,162
then they hate you and then they
don't care what happens to you.

3292
03:18:34,162 --> 03:18:40,102
And we're back to, uh, humiliating you,
scor you and showing domination over you.

3293
03:18:40,192 --> 03:18:43,042
So it's, it's goes back to fascism.

3294
03:18:43,042 --> 03:18:46,657
There's this like a, just like a. Bipolar.

3295
03:18:46,807 --> 03:18:48,427
Either you're in or you're out.

3296
03:18:48,487 --> 03:18:52,927
Either you love me or I
hate you kind of mentality.

3297
03:18:53,107 --> 03:18:55,237
But that's because they do care.

3298
03:18:55,627 --> 03:18:57,097
They do care what people think.

3299
03:18:57,227 --> 03:19:00,497
The Supreme Court last week heard a
case that challenged part of the Voting

3300
03:19:00,497 --> 03:19:04,067
Rights Act and the, the fear that
people have, and it's not universally

3301
03:19:04,067 --> 03:19:08,147
shared, but there, it's pretty acute
in some corners, is that the important

3302
03:19:08,147 --> 03:19:09,857
parts of that act could be gutted.

3303
03:19:10,277 --> 03:19:13,817
That the, there's a belief that
perhaps within the conservative

3304
03:19:13,817 --> 03:19:16,817
majority on the court, that those
protections that the Voting Rights

3305
03:19:16,817 --> 03:19:19,577
Act offered are no longer necessary.

3306
03:19:20,057 --> 03:19:22,457
Do you worry about that and what
would the impact of that be?

3307
03:19:23,312 --> 03:19:24,752
Oh, I'm deeply worried about it.

3308
03:19:24,842 --> 03:19:29,252
I think that we have a court, which
is for the first time in my life,

3309
03:19:29,312 --> 03:19:34,442
uh, seemingly, uh, hostile to many of
those civil rights victories that have

3310
03:19:34,442 --> 03:19:37,622
made life so much better in America.

3311
03:19:38,007 --> 03:19:40,677
You know, without the civil rights
movement, we wouldn't be having,

3312
03:19:41,067 --> 03:19:44,607
you know, these college football
games where schools and states

3313
03:19:44,607 --> 03:19:46,947
rally behind the team in Alabama.

3314
03:19:47,427 --> 03:19:50,637
Nothing is a greater source of pride
than our college football teams.

3315
03:19:50,637 --> 03:19:53,517
None of that success, none of
those championships would've been

3316
03:19:53,517 --> 03:19:55,557
possible without integration.

3317
03:19:55,557 --> 03:19:56,277
Those teams are.

3318
03:19:56,462 --> 03:19:58,262
Predominantly kids of color.

3319
03:19:58,262 --> 03:20:03,032
We love sports in America and we're
forgetting that for decades the best

3320
03:20:03,032 --> 03:20:07,052
athletes couldn't play professional
basketball or baseball or football.

3321
03:20:07,232 --> 03:20:08,462
It took a civil rights movement.

3322
03:20:08,462 --> 03:20:12,122
It took a change in the mindset, and
we've reaped the benefits of that.

3323
03:20:12,782 --> 03:20:16,652
The problem is, is that we have
a court that hasn't understood.

3324
03:20:16,952 --> 03:20:22,382
The challenges of this history in the
context of things like voting, and I think

3325
03:20:22,382 --> 03:20:25,082
the Supreme Court is just misinformed.

3326
03:20:25,082 --> 03:20:28,862
The state of Alabama where
I live never wanted to give

3327
03:20:28,862 --> 03:20:30,002
black people the right to vote.

3328
03:20:30,377 --> 03:20:32,987
They were forced to give black
people the right to vote.

3329
03:20:33,227 --> 03:20:38,987
Every southern legislator in 1965 voted
against the Voting Rights Act, and

3330
03:20:38,987 --> 03:20:43,667
after the Voting Rights Act was passed,
they began scheming on how to limit

3331
03:20:43,667 --> 03:20:45,587
the political power of black people.

3332
03:20:45,587 --> 03:20:50,987
And that has gone on consistently
from 1965 to today, and I think that's

3333
03:20:50,987 --> 03:20:52,847
what this court is not appreciated.

3334
03:20:53,797 --> 03:20:57,907
Not understanding, and one of the
consequences of not having honest history

3335
03:20:58,387 --> 03:21:00,007
is you have a lot of people in power.

3336
03:21:00,277 --> 03:21:03,757
You have a lot of policy makers that
are operating and making decisions

3337
03:21:03,757 --> 03:21:07,357
with a skewed view of this history.

3338
03:21:07,657 --> 03:21:13,357
We never did anything remedial in
1965 to help black people recover

3339
03:21:13,357 --> 03:21:15,277
from a century of disenfranchisement.

3340
03:21:15,277 --> 03:21:20,617
I, I joke sometimes I wanna go back
to 1965 with my Harvard law degree.

3341
03:21:21,177 --> 03:21:25,017
And I want to advocate, I want
to ask for some different things

3342
03:21:25,017 --> 03:21:26,667
than we asked for in 1965.

3343
03:21:26,667 --> 03:21:31,227
I think in 1965 it would not have
been wrong, uh, for black people

3344
03:21:31,227 --> 03:21:35,727
to say, you need to repair the
damage done by disenfranchisement.

3345
03:21:35,727 --> 03:21:39,477
We do remedies in all kinds of contexts
in business and corporation and tax.

3346
03:21:39,477 --> 03:21:43,437
We, we create remedies and
if I could get back to 1965.

3347
03:21:43,917 --> 03:21:48,687
I'd be asking and requiring these states
to make it easier for black people to

3348
03:21:48,687 --> 03:21:50,577
vote because we made voting so difficult.

3349
03:21:50,577 --> 03:21:54,897
I think black people should have been
automatically registered in 1965, just to

3350
03:21:54,897 --> 03:21:58,497
reckon with the history of intimidation
and violence that we subjected black

3351
03:21:58,497 --> 03:21:59,877
people to when they went to the poll.

3352
03:21:59,907 --> 03:22:02,967
I don't think it would've been
wrong to put the burden on states

3353
03:22:02,967 --> 03:22:05,862
like Mississippi and Georgia and
Texas to go into black communities.

3354
03:22:06,232 --> 03:22:07,402
And get their votes.

3355
03:22:07,822 --> 03:22:12,502
And that would've shown a real commitment
to eliminating the harm, the burden,

3356
03:22:12,502 --> 03:22:16,282
the bigotry that a hundred years
of disenfranchisement had created.

3357
03:22:16,822 --> 03:22:18,802
Instead, we resisted all of that.

3358
03:22:19,012 --> 03:22:20,002
We didn't do any of that.

3359
03:22:20,002 --> 03:22:25,252
Had we done those things, we might
not need a voting rights Act in 2025.

3360
03:22:25,252 --> 03:22:28,012
We might be in a different
place, but we did the opposite.

3361
03:22:28,462 --> 03:22:30,772
We looked for new schemes
to disenfranchise, we looked

3362
03:22:30,772 --> 03:22:32,182
for new ways to limit.

3363
03:22:32,602 --> 03:22:34,312
We created gerrymandered.

3364
03:22:34,327 --> 03:22:37,117
Political districts to, to
limit the political power.

3365
03:22:37,117 --> 03:22:40,237
That's been our history
for the last 60 years.

3366
03:22:40,597 --> 03:22:43,867
And so, yes, I am worried about
what the court will do, but what

3367
03:22:43,867 --> 03:22:46,177
encourages me is that it's too late.

3368
03:22:46,502 --> 03:22:47,732
We've had the right to vote.

3369
03:22:47,762 --> 03:22:50,222
We've elected too many people
into positions of power.

3370
03:22:50,222 --> 03:22:52,592
Black people in this country,
poor people in this country,

3371
03:22:53,072 --> 03:22:54,362
marginalized people in this country.

3372
03:22:54,362 --> 03:22:57,752
We'll never go back to the
kind of conditions and the

3373
03:22:57,752 --> 03:23:01,772
powerlessness and the depoliticized
disenfranchised state that we had.

3374
03:23:01,832 --> 03:23:05,792
It's gonna be tricky, but I am
persuaded that whatever the court

3375
03:23:05,792 --> 03:23:10,502
does, there is going to be a response
and there's going to be a fight

3376
03:23:10,502 --> 03:23:11,822
and a commitment on behalf of.

3377
03:23:11,922 --> 03:23:14,952
Those who are being marginalized
to make their voices heard.

3378
03:23:15,012 --> 03:23:17,712
That's a really optimistic and
surprisingly optimistic, I think to

3379
03:23:17,712 --> 03:23:20,772
some people take on this because there
are a lot of people who see this as,

3380
03:23:21,102 --> 03:23:24,102
you know, a knife on the neck of,
of democracy in the United States.

3381
03:23:24,102 --> 03:23:29,502
When you look at actively disenfranchising
people, um, removing black majority

3382
03:23:29,502 --> 03:23:33,282
districts and perhaps tilting the
table in favor of, of a different

3383
03:23:33,312 --> 03:23:36,042
party that that threatens democracy at.

3384
03:23:36,042 --> 03:23:37,092
Its at its core.

3385
03:23:37,242 --> 03:23:39,607
But there's a hint of, of
optimism in what you're saying.

3386
03:23:40,997 --> 03:23:43,127
Yeah, I wanna be very
sober about the threat.

3387
03:23:43,157 --> 03:23:46,787
I mean, it, it would be a catastrophe
for the court to undermine the Voting

3388
03:23:46,787 --> 03:23:49,912
Rights Act, but you, you don't believe the
people will, will allow that to continue.

3389
03:23:51,497 --> 03:23:58,157
Well, I, I think there will be a moment of
retreat, but I am persuaded that we have

3390
03:23:58,337 --> 03:24:04,367
many of us inherited this hope that makes
it impossible for us to give into that.

3391
03:24:04,427 --> 03:24:08,087
I mean, I, I started out as a lawyer
representing people on death row in

3392
03:24:08,087 --> 03:24:11,567
a state that had one of the highest
execution rates in the country.

3393
03:24:11,567 --> 03:24:13,187
We had no money, we had no resources.

3394
03:24:13,187 --> 03:24:14,717
We had to believe things.

3395
03:24:15,217 --> 03:24:20,347
We have not seen, and I'm proud that
we've gotten 150 people off of death row.

3396
03:24:20,347 --> 03:24:23,647
Many people who were wrongly
convicted, many people who are free.

3397
03:24:24,097 --> 03:24:26,497
We challenged conditions of confinement.

3398
03:24:26,497 --> 03:24:29,167
We challenged death and
prison sentences for children.

3399
03:24:29,167 --> 03:24:32,377
And people were saying, there's
no way, uh, that that will change.

3400
03:24:32,377 --> 03:24:34,057
And, and, and now here we are.

3401
03:24:34,117 --> 03:24:37,237
I think hopelessness is
the enemy of justice.

3402
03:24:37,717 --> 03:24:40,687
We are in a critical
moment, a crisis moment.

3403
03:24:40,812 --> 03:24:45,462
America, but the last thing we can
afford to become is hopeless about

3404
03:24:45,462 --> 03:24:48,792
our capacity to overcome this moment.

3405
03:24:49,242 --> 03:24:50,682
Our hope is our superpower.

3406
03:24:50,682 --> 03:24:54,762
I've just learned that my great
grandparents were enslaved, and

3407
03:24:54,762 --> 03:24:58,512
yet they had a hope of freedom
and it empowered them to do things

3408
03:24:58,512 --> 03:25:01,962
that I think probably didn't make
sense to the hopeless around them.

3409
03:25:01,962 --> 03:25:05,772
My great-grandfather learned
to read while he was enslaved.

3410
03:25:06,312 --> 03:25:07,302
It was against the law.

3411
03:25:07,302 --> 03:25:08,232
He could have been sold.

3412
03:25:08,232 --> 03:25:11,682
He could have been killed for learning
to read, but his hope for freedom

3413
03:25:12,342 --> 03:25:16,932
caused him to take that risk because he
knew one day he was going to be free.

3414
03:25:16,932 --> 03:25:20,592
And he didn't know in the 1850s that
the Civil War would come in the 1860s.

3415
03:25:20,592 --> 03:25:21,492
But there it came.

3416
03:25:22,062 --> 03:25:24,582
And after emancipation, my
grandmother said he would read

3417
03:25:24,582 --> 03:25:27,732
the newspaper to formerly enslaved
people who didn't know how to read.

3418
03:25:28,092 --> 03:25:31,392
And my grandmother worked as a domestic
her whole life, but she was a reader.

3419
03:25:31,392 --> 03:25:32,382
She would insist.

3420
03:25:32,717 --> 03:25:35,867
That we would read books before she
would sometimes let us in the house.

3421
03:25:35,867 --> 03:25:40,037
And I grew up in a poor, racially
segregated community, but my mom

3422
03:25:40,037 --> 03:25:42,077
bought us the World Book Encyclopedias.

3423
03:25:42,077 --> 03:25:44,687
When we were young kids, you didn't
see a lot of hope outside the door.

3424
03:25:44,687 --> 03:25:45,527
People were poor.

3425
03:25:45,527 --> 03:25:46,937
People didn't have running water.

3426
03:25:46,937 --> 03:25:48,437
People worked in the poultry plants.

3427
03:25:48,857 --> 03:25:51,437
But in those books, I read
all about the lawyers.

3428
03:25:51,437 --> 03:25:54,827
I read about the great things
that people did, and it is that

3429
03:25:54,827 --> 03:25:57,467
legacy of hope that empowers.

3430
03:25:57,792 --> 03:26:02,112
Me that empowers the work that I do,
but I think it empowers many of us.

3431
03:26:02,532 --> 03:26:06,072
We've come too far to
be turned around now.

3432
03:26:06,462 --> 03:26:10,002
We don't yet know whether what
we're living through in America

3433
03:26:10,002 --> 03:26:12,732
in 2025 is going to be a moment.

3434
03:26:13,227 --> 03:26:15,057
Or it's going to be an era.

3435
03:26:15,327 --> 03:26:18,237
I'm still pushing for it to be a moment.

3436
03:26:18,357 --> 03:26:19,947
A moment that can be corrected.

3437
03:26:20,397 --> 03:26:21,177
It'll be hard.

3438
03:26:21,177 --> 03:26:24,987
It'll be complicated with these political
decisions, but we have to believe

3439
03:26:25,167 --> 03:26:26,817
that we can get to someplace better.

3440
03:26:26,817 --> 03:26:32,037
The thing that I was given by the
generation that came before me is this.

3441
03:26:32,282 --> 03:26:36,092
Understanding that hope is
an orientation of the spirit.

3442
03:26:36,122 --> 03:26:38,402
It's not rational and
logical all the time.

3443
03:26:38,402 --> 03:26:43,202
It's just a place you occupy in
the midst of conflict and struggle.

3444
03:26:43,622 --> 03:26:47,192
And they used to sing, we
shall overcome even in the face

3445
03:26:47,192 --> 03:26:48,872
of violence and brutalizing.

3446
03:26:49,007 --> 03:26:52,517
State troopers and police officers,
even when they were being chased

3447
03:26:52,517 --> 03:26:56,927
and menaced and threatened in bond,
they still said, we shall overcome,

3448
03:26:57,407 --> 03:27:00,077
not we hope to overcome we shall.

3449
03:27:00,677 --> 03:27:03,197
And that is rooted in
that hope orientation.

3450
03:27:03,197 --> 03:27:07,787
And I think the great things that America
has done, they've done because there's.

3451
03:27:08,037 --> 03:27:09,867
Commitment and a spirit of hopefulness.

3452
03:27:10,347 --> 03:27:13,557
And that's what I think we have to
have to hold onto in this moment.

3453
03:27:13,557 --> 03:27:16,257
We can't just give into the
politics of fear and anger

3454
03:27:16,377 --> 03:27:20,937
I want to start with something
that has been on my mind and trying

3455
03:27:20,937 --> 03:27:25,707
to understand, which is why has
Donald Trump all of a sudden become

3456
03:27:25,707 --> 03:27:29,187
fixated on foreign intervention?

3457
03:27:29,917 --> 03:27:36,607
What do we learn from, uh, authoritarians
in the past and in the, in the present?

3458
03:27:36,907 --> 03:27:41,887
You know, I always think of authoritarians
as wanting to control the populace and

3459
03:27:41,887 --> 03:27:44,017
being actually sort of isolationist.

3460
03:27:44,347 --> 03:27:45,427
What am I missing here?

3461
03:27:45,607 --> 03:27:47,347
It's a dual dynamic.

3462
03:27:47,407 --> 03:27:48,637
On the one hand, they.

3463
03:27:49,117 --> 03:27:51,997
You're right, they want to control
the population and they have

3464
03:27:51,997 --> 03:27:54,517
these national purity campaigns.

3465
03:27:54,697 --> 03:28:00,577
At the same time, they, uh, want to, uh,
spread, they want to plunder the earth,

3466
03:28:00,577 --> 03:28:02,527
they want to plunder foreign countries.

3467
03:28:02,917 --> 03:28:08,677
Uh, we forget that, uh, you know, even
the Holocaust was, uh, one of the biggest

3468
03:28:08,677 --> 03:28:11,077
criminal op operations in history.

3469
03:28:11,197 --> 03:28:14,137
Not only because of genocide,
but because of plundering.

3470
03:28:14,197 --> 03:28:15,907
Everywhere they went, they plundered.

3471
03:28:15,937 --> 03:28:17,887
And we also see a dynamic where.

3472
03:28:18,517 --> 03:28:24,217
If leaders feel some pressure at home,
uh, whether if they still have elections,

3473
03:28:24,247 --> 03:28:28,927
they feel they're getting unpopular or
there's discontent, uh, brewing, they

3474
03:28:28,927 --> 03:28:34,027
can become, uh, more, they can use wars,
imperialist wars, or other kinds of

3475
03:28:34,027 --> 03:28:36,907
military escapades to justify crackdown.

3476
03:28:37,607 --> 03:28:41,957
Emergency powers or just like
bringing people into line.

3477
03:28:42,047 --> 03:28:46,517
And we see this in China with,
uh, Xi Jinping when the economy

3478
03:28:46,517 --> 03:28:48,107
started to have a downturn.

3479
03:28:48,197 --> 03:28:53,447
He has purged between one third and
one fifth of all military officials.

3480
03:28:54,312 --> 03:28:55,392
In recent years,

3481
03:28:55,482 --> 03:28:58,332
I wanna go back to the
historical analogies, not because

3482
03:28:58,392 --> 03:29:00,162
they are perfect analogies.

3483
03:29:00,162 --> 03:29:02,352
Obviously the Holocaust was
a unique historical event.

3484
03:29:02,712 --> 03:29:04,662
World War II was different
than where we are now.

3485
03:29:04,662 --> 03:29:09,702
Every generation has its own challenges,
but because I think that that, um, there

3486
03:29:09,702 --> 03:29:12,682
is a hole in my understanding of this,
and therefore I suspect in a lot of the.

3487
03:29:12,962 --> 03:29:18,272
Publix, when I think of what
fascist regimes were trying to do

3488
03:29:18,272 --> 03:29:25,322
in Italy and Spain and Germany, um,
uh, I don't, you know, I, I think

3489
03:29:25,322 --> 03:29:27,272
of them as mostly inward focused.

3490
03:29:27,302 --> 03:29:29,642
Like they were trying to, as you
say, engage in racial purity.

3491
03:29:29,642 --> 03:29:31,712
They were trying to control the economy.

3492
03:29:31,712 --> 03:29:35,042
They were, they were taking away
civil liberties to say the least.

3493
03:29:35,042 --> 03:29:37,352
To what extent is the.

3494
03:29:38,242 --> 03:29:40,492
The interventionist abroad.

3495
03:29:40,492 --> 03:29:42,412
In other words, the expansionist impulse.

3496
03:29:43,072 --> 03:29:44,242
To what extent is that?

3497
03:29:44,587 --> 03:29:49,357
Part of that internal thing, or is
it sort of runs intention with it?

3498
03:29:49,357 --> 03:29:49,867
Do you know what I'm saying?

3499
03:29:49,867 --> 03:29:54,637
Like, is it a, like the public can't
object to it because they are being

3500
03:29:54,637 --> 03:29:56,977
subject to authoritarian at home?

3501
03:29:57,187 --> 03:30:02,602
Or is it actually part of the attraction
and the popularity of the strongman?

3502
03:30:02,917 --> 03:30:03,727
It's both.

3503
03:30:04,027 --> 03:30:08,737
Um, so these are the, the classic
fascists were empire builders.

3504
03:30:09,522 --> 03:30:13,212
And Franco's a little different, but
he was very, they also are very, they

3505
03:30:13,212 --> 03:30:17,232
have these fixations, which we see with,
uh, Trump in Greenland at the moment.

3506
03:30:17,682 --> 03:30:22,212
Um, but Franco was fixated, uh, to
restore the grandeur of the Spanish

3507
03:30:22,212 --> 03:30:27,342
empire, but he, so he limited this
to, to obsession with the last bit

3508
03:30:27,342 --> 03:30:30,012
of Spanish Morocco that existed.

3509
03:30:30,072 --> 03:30:30,762
And in fact.

3510
03:30:31,307 --> 03:30:35,957
He was so fixated on this that
he didn't go into World War II on

3511
03:30:35,957 --> 03:30:39,587
the side of, uh, the axis Hitler
was trying to get him to join.

3512
03:30:40,507 --> 03:30:44,137
And he didn't, uh, he didn't end up
going in because Hitler thought he wanted

3513
03:30:44,137 --> 03:30:49,747
too much territory in North Africa, and
he and, and Hitler said, I'd rather go

3514
03:30:49,747 --> 03:30:53,197
to the dentist and get my teeth pulled
than deal with Franco ever again.

3515
03:30:53,197 --> 03:30:55,987
During the axis, they had this
idea of a new world order.

3516
03:30:57,142 --> 03:31:01,372
They wanted to completely,
uh, supplant democratic, uh,

3517
03:31:01,402 --> 03:31:06,022
internationalism the League of Nations
and have a whole new civilization.

3518
03:31:06,172 --> 03:31:10,792
And so when we hear people like Stephen
Miller talk about reviving, you know,

3519
03:31:10,792 --> 03:31:15,442
and protecting, uh, white Christian
civilization, there is a history

3520
03:31:15,442 --> 03:31:18,022
of expansionism along those lines.

3521
03:31:18,062 --> 03:31:22,562
So I have to ask, 'cause I know
you are a particular expert in,

3522
03:31:22,592 --> 03:31:27,992
um, the, uh, in Mussolini and the,
uh, Italian fascist, uh, movement.

3523
03:31:28,022 --> 03:31:30,512
Was there an expansionist
part to them as well?

3524
03:31:30,512 --> 03:31:34,387
We obviously know Hitler went into
Poland and, and into, you know, uh,

3525
03:31:34,412 --> 03:31:39,422
uh, several other, uh, uh, countries,
uh, uh, after, you know, the border of

3526
03:31:39,422 --> 03:31:41,012
Germany went into France, obviously.

3527
03:31:41,342 --> 03:31:46,352
Uh, but was, was there an expansionist
part to Mussolini's form of fascism?

3528
03:31:46,762 --> 03:31:51,382
In fact, uh, Hitler, uh, adored and
worshiped Mussolini and learned from

3529
03:31:51,382 --> 03:31:55,312
him and it, and it was Mussolini
who started off the destabilization.

3530
03:31:55,582 --> 03:31:58,012
He invaded, uh, Ethiopia.

3531
03:31:58,582 --> 03:32:04,012
Which was an independent, uh, but it was
a member of the League of Nations and the

3532
03:32:04,012 --> 03:32:09,082
first appeasement was not Munich, but,
um, but nobody wanting to do anything to

3533
03:32:09,082 --> 03:32:14,092
stop, uh, Mussolini and Hitler learned
from this and right after, so, you

3534
03:32:14,092 --> 03:32:20,662
know, Mussolini invades 1935 and Hitler
starts doing his stuff, and the Italians

3535
03:32:20,662 --> 03:32:23,572
went into Yugoslavia, uh, Albania.

3536
03:32:23,987 --> 03:32:27,617
Um, they were partners with
the Axis in, in many places in

3537
03:32:27,617 --> 03:32:31,667
France, they invaded seven Dimo in
France, which we never remember.

3538
03:32:31,877 --> 03:32:34,007
So they did an enormous amount of damage.

3539
03:32:34,007 --> 03:32:36,077
I've looked at the war
crimes records and sometimes.

3540
03:32:36,907 --> 03:32:40,447
The UN War Crimes Commission records
and sometimes the Italians were

3541
03:32:40,447 --> 03:32:42,097
behaving worse than the Germans.

3542
03:32:42,127 --> 03:32:43,267
That's going to be it for today.

3543
03:32:43,317 --> 03:32:44,967
As always, keep the comments coming in.

3544
03:32:44,967 --> 03:32:47,877
You can record and re-record
a voice message by tapping

3545
03:32:47,877 --> 03:32:48,927
the link in the show notes.

3546
03:32:49,227 --> 03:32:53,427
You can reach us on signal at the handle,
best of the left, zero one, or simply

3547
03:32:53,427 --> 03:32:56,037
email me to J at best of the left.com.

3548
03:32:56,397 --> 03:32:58,707
The additional sections of the
show, I include EC clips from

3549
03:32:59,007 --> 03:33:01,107
teaching hard history, dogma debate.

3550
03:33:01,872 --> 03:33:01,932
P

3551
03:33:02,210 --> 03:33:03,380
The Political philosophy.

3552
03:33:03,380 --> 03:33:10,595
Podcast 1619 Democracy Paradox,
Velshi, A BC News, the Bunker, Mary

3553
03:33:10,595 --> 03:33:16,670
Trump Media Reveal Radio Atlantic,
the Current and Democracy Docket.

3554
03:33:17,000 --> 03:33:19,100
Further details are in the show notes.

3555
03:33:19,490 --> 03:33:20,570
Thanks to everyone for listening.

3556
03:33:20,600 --> 03:33:22,790
Thanks to Dionne and Erin for
their production work for the

3557
03:33:22,790 --> 03:33:24,680
show, and co-starring Unsolved

3558
03:33:25,100 --> 03:33:27,590
thanks to Amanda for all of her
work behind the scenes, including

3559
03:33:27,590 --> 03:33:28,910
her co-starring Unsolved.

3560
03:33:29,150 --> 03:33:32,390
Thanks to our editors and thanks to those
who already support the show by becoming

3561
03:33:32,390 --> 03:33:34,160
a member or purchasing gift memberships.

3562
03:33:34,160 --> 03:33:36,740
You'll find that link in the
show notes along with a link

3563
03:33:36,740 --> 03:33:37,940
to join our Discord community.

3564
03:33:38,330 --> 03:33:40,220
Where you can also
continue the discussion.

3565
03:33:40,430 --> 03:33:43,070
And don't forget to follow us on
all the social media platforms.

3566
03:33:43,107 --> 03:33:45,597
We are on Blue Sky, but we're
also making the move to video on

3567
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Instagram with the new show solved.

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So please support us there.

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so coming to you from far outside
the conventional wisdom of

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Washington dc My name is Jay, and
this has been the Best of the Left

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podcast coming to you twice weekly.

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Thanks entirely to the members and donors
to the show from best of the left.com.