Emma
You're listening to the Beautiful Mess podcast your cozy comfort listen. I'm your host, Emma Chapman.
Elsie
And I'm your host, Elsie Larson.
Emma
And this week we're talking about how to develop your Creative Palette and style without being
derivative. This is a subject that applies across different creative practices, from art to writing and even
how you dress or decorate your home. And also, at the end of the episode, we're going to have a book
report.
Elsie
Yes, this entire episode is based around a wonderful listener question. It is from Haley, so I'm going to
read it to get us started. She says, I always want to be creative and love making art. I get frustrated,
though, because I seem to be stuck in a loop of seeing something I like on Pinterest and then
recreating it. I feel like I can't figure out how to make something original. When I see something I like on
Pinterest, I can't get it on my head and I just remake it. How do you gather inspiration without imitation?
So I love this subject. Yeah, I think that it's so interesting, and I do think it's like a very common
challenge in, like, early development of any kind of creative process, like, no one wants to be derivative,
like no one wants to be a copycat. But in this episode, we're gonna make the case why you kind of
have to. It's a stepping stone to get where you want to go. It's not where you're going to end. It's not
where you're going to land on. It's one step in the process of learning your style.
Emma
Yeah, we're going to flip a script on it. Instead of being like, I'm a copycat, it's like, I'm a fan girl.
Elsie
Yes, yes, yeah, yeah. And I should shout out, I love Austin cleons. You know, we saw him at a
conference last year, and it has he was so, was so cute, and I followed his newsletter ever since, and
he has that book, I'm sure you've heard of it, steal, like an artist, and it is such a great little it's kind of a
pep talk, like, I don't even feel like it's like a book, it's like a it's a pep It's a little, yeah, little talking pep
talk for you. If you are more interested in the subject, I do recommend it, because it kind of just
consolidates all the great quotes. There's a lot of, like, Picasso quotes, and just everyone through
history kind of knows, like, not just Andy Warhol, other people too. You kind of have to copy, like, it's
part of creating art, and it's not always a bad thing. So I think that share, I don't know, we'll talk, we'll
talk more about it, but yeah, I think that when I was younger, I first started my blog, I wanted everything
I did to be completely original, and it was kind of a trap, because I didn't let myself try many things I was
interested in, because someone else was already doing it well. And I think that that's really sad.
Emma
I actually just really liked her question too, because I feel like sometimes people are nervous to admit
that they want to make something they've seen, yeah, like, just even saying that, a lot of people feel
like, oh, I should never, never admit that, even though the truth is, we all feel that way. We every time I
see a beautiful piece of art of some kind, I would love to make it, you know, like, that's kind of what it
means to be a fan. So, you know, it's a really normal starting place. And I just like that. She was just
like, here's the thing, you know, it's like, yeah, exactly Yes. Me too, all of us, yes. Okay, so we're kind of
going to go through. It's basically a three step process, yeah, simple, easy, just three steps, and then
you will have your own signature style.
Elsie
And this applies to art, writing, creating content, dressing yourself, any creative work you want to do on
this planet, this will apply to you, but we'll probably tell mostly stories from our own development. So
maybe, like writing our novels, and I could, I can talk about art too, but yeah, there's maybe blogging
too, but yeah, there's all kinds of, I kind of think it applies to everything, like, it touches every part of
creativity.
Emma
Yes, it does. It's just like, I feel like it's like, one of those snowball things where it's like, you start going
with it, and then you find out, as it starts rolling down the hill and getting, like, bigger and bigger and
beyond you, you're like, oh, it just supplies everything. I was trying to just have my own painting style,
but all of a sudden I'm like, looking at my closet differently, and my kids closet differently, and my
decorating my house, or like, the way I cook and the way I present food if I have guests over, you know,
whatever, whatever you do in your life. These are things I do.
Elsie
I'm actually going to use painting as more an example today, because this season right now, I'm in the
process of trying to tweak my style and kind of take it in a new direction. And so I have been doing a lot
of this stuff. So I think if you sit down and you you sit down, you have your blank canvas, you put your
paints on your palette, you have your water, you have your brushes, and you expect for yourself on the
first try to just be able to. Just like, conjure something original like that is it might happen. I mean, you
like, you can put paint on the canvas and just see what comes out. Like you, you might find something
you love. But for me, more often, it is a longer process than that. And it like, it doesn't just take one
step. It's not just like, I want to change my style. Poof, my style has changed. It's a development
process that I have to go through. I want to start off by saying, don't be mad at yourself if you can't live
up to your own taste on your first try, because that is like a tale as old as time. We all have that
problem, and the reason you're disappointed in the outcome is because you do have good taste, and
eventually you will be able to live up to that taste.
Emma
And I also think it makes me think about, like, sometimes you'll see, like, a favorite artist, like maybe a
great filmmaker, or something, them have an interview, and they're like, this film is garbage. I'm doing a
fake cigarette right now, total garbage. I hate it. And you're like, wow, I thought this was like, kind of like,
the most amazing thing they've made in their career so far. And it's because even for them, even for
people who are professionals, or you might look up to or have won awards, amazing awards out in the
world, they have the same thing where their taste, they're like, not quite caught up to their taste yet.
And so it's like, you're always chasing that. And so I would kind of say, try to be okay with that and
enjoy that. Try to just, you know, it's uncomfortable, but like, just know that that's not a bad thing. And
so maybe, like, you know, chill out a little bit because the journey is like, what you're going to be on until
you die. So you should try to enjoy it, if you can't.
Elsie
Yes, okay, so yeah, we're building with Legos here, and each project is one Lego brick, and you cannot
build your Lego Castle without starting with one brick. Yeah, sorry. Okay, so step one, develop your
taste. Be a fan, appreciate art. So this is something early in my career. I don't know what to call it, early
in blogging.
Emma
I don't like that you're laughing saying career.
Elsie
My early career was, like, not really a career. It was a little bit like, it was a weird origin story. So I think
early on, I felt like I was, like, afraid to be like, a big fan in public, because for one, I like, felt like, if I
showed my appreciation, then people would, like, compare my work to that. And I mean, it's definitely
like that with writing, where it's like, you say, you like, say, like, my favorite writers are these three
people. And then you, like, hold out your manuscript, and you're like, Oh.
Emma
It's scary. You're telling me it's not like, Barbara King Grover, oh.
Elsie
Yeah, it's like, a little little pat on the shoulder, yeah, um, but yeah, I think that a big part of developing
your palette is being a fan and appreciating art and consuming as much of it as you can. So whatever
your project, be a voracious fan of that thing. And if it's reading, read like all over the different library
sections, don't just stay in one. I think that's a very, very important part of growing and if it's art, you
know, don't just stay, like, only focused on your favorite artist. Study 10, like, have 10 favorite artists. I
think that, like, the more you can expand your fandom, you're, like, actually growing your taste on the
inside at the same time.
Emma
In this phase two, I would say, I think you're going to probably gravitate towards becoming a fan of the
types of art or work or things that you're interested in yourself. But I would also encourage you to push
yourself to be a fan and grow your taste in areas that you have no intention of copying. Like, you know,
for example, I do like fashion, and I wear clothes every day, but I don't really aspire to be a fashion
designer. I don't really aspire to be going to New York for a Fashion Week. Like, that's not really
something I've ever been been on my radar. But I still think going to the library and going to the fashion
section reading some books or like, finding like, Oh, I love Alexander McQueen. Oh, I love, like, that's
cool. That's a cool thing to do, and you should do it. Find your favorite, you know, designer, your
favorite painter, a few favorite musicians, favorite filmmakers. Like, it's great to, you know, spread
yourself out across all these different creative areas, if nothing else. Like, this is truly just about
appreciating great art. That's, that's the goal, and one of the goals, anyway, in this step. So yes, you
know, you want to be a writer. Yes, read a lot, but also, love films, love music, love fashion, love
photography, love painting. You know, whatever. It doesn't have to be all those things. But, like, pick
more than just your field.
Elsie
Yeah, I think that's really good. And if you want to be a. A like, a tactile person like me. You can start a
journal for this. You can start a journal for anything you really can't No one's stopping you a journal of
just like art I love. You could write on the front of it, inspiration, you know, anything like that. And just
collect, collect, collect, you know, like, write in it, your playlist. Write in it, what movies you want to see.
And I think to Emma's point, it's true that, like, you might get the greatest idea for a novel from a film or
a song and like it, yeah, the categories definitely touch each other and overlap.
Emma
Or you might end up writing a character who is a musician or a fashion designer or whatever, and now
you have some appreciation of that field. You know, it all bleeds together, but mainly it's just having an
appreciation for beautiful, interesting things that are out there in the world, which I think is a worthwhile
pursuit in and of itself.
Elsie
Yeah, I agree. All right. Step two is make derivative work on purpose. Yeah, this is so important, and
you're going to keep doing so until you start to see your own style emerge, and it will. I remember, in
like, the covid days, I was making replica paintings of like, fame, like I was literally trying to copy exactly
a Grandma Moses painting, and I think a Matisse painting, I can't remember anymore, yeah, I think it
was a Matisse painting. Anyway, I was just copying them. It was not to show. It was for learning. It was
for the education of it. And I've heard this advice all over different types of creative work. I think, well,
with my husband, he is musician. He tells me, everyone who starts songwriting has an early phase
where they are just like a blatant copycat of whatever their favorite band is at that time. And that's
normal. You hope you won't get famous for that a few people in life do, but you know, most people
don't. Most people, it's like, you recognize someone's kind of they're learning. And it's not a shameful
thing to make derivative work early in your learning process. It's totally normal, and I think it's good. I
will defend it, because I think that it's a way to self teach. You know, copying something you admire is
just more exciting than copying something you don't admire.
Emma
Yeah, and I'll say too in this step, you know, for the most part, 99% of the time, let's say that this is not
the step where you stop and then start selling your word. This is the step where you're learning and
also, like you can kind of stop at this step if you never plan to sell your work. So again, you know, let's
say fashion. I was sick on that for some reason I don't know if I'm like, never going to sell fashion. I
don't want to make it, to sell it on Etsy. I don't want to, you know, that's not my inspiration. Then I'm like,
I can forever just be trying to put together outfits, like the ones I see on Pinterest or my favorite
designer or whatever, I can just be derivative forever, if it's just for me. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with
that. It's just fine. It's just being a fan forever. If you want to become an artist who has their own point of
view, and especially if you want to sell your work, you're going to need to move to step three. But this
step two is, can be the finish line if you don't really have any aspirations beyond it.
Elsie
True, that's fine. Every single time I go to a flea market, I see a Bob Ross style painting, yeah. And it's
like, there's nothing wrong with all these Bob Ross people. Like, I imagine the like, I don't know, the
Linda's and the Karens who made these paintings in the 80s in their living room with their TV on. And I
think it's great, yeah, and they probably had some fun from Bob Ross.
Emma
You probably had so much fun. He's, like, so fun to watch.
Elsie
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got the vibe. Oh, yeah, um. And yeah, I've heard a lot of people say, Okay, so
like, one of my favorite painters who, like, I got a lot out of this in my 20s, Jim Hauser, do you remember
him? Yes, this book that I was obsessed with. So anyway, he had this quote. It said, like, give away
your first 100 paintings. I think that that's like, a good way to think of it. If you want to become
commercially viable, you want to become an expert, you want to become a professional, then you
should be okay with either tossing to the side or doing it just for fun. I think in writing, fan fiction is pretty
popular. A lot of people get their start, especially younger people, their first book is fan fiction that I think
it's a great way to learn, because you don't have to build your own world as deeply you kind of have,
like this diving board to jump off from.
Emma
And you know you can't sell it, so it kind of takes that pressure off.
Elsie
Yeah, you know you're not gonna make money from it. You're just doing it for fun. And I think that things
like that, that is great advice. So, yeah, I think that you should embrace it, and I think you should do it
even more. Just know that this isn't this is one step. This is not the final destination. Obviously, like,
copying is bad when you're passing it off as your own work, you know, like and you're pretending to be
a professional, but it's not bad when you're in an education phase at all. So yep. Okay, you want to say
step three.
Emma
So we've made a lot of derivative work, so now we're on to step three, which is to keep developing,
keep growing, keep making To infinity and beyond. I also think this is the time. Another thing I would
say is like, mash it up. So now it's like, take two different artists that you've been making derivative work
from, and try to mash them together and like something you like about, you know, like, that's sort of
what a lot of art is.
Elsie
Pick something with some contrast, like, pick, don't pick, like, two bands that sound kind of alike, pick
two bands that sound different, and mix those two things together.
Emma
Hopefully this will be kind of easy for you if you've done step one and two, because you're a fan of lot of
different things, and you're familiar with so many different things, different styles, different even
disciplines. So it's going to be easier for you to do this kind of mashing up, trying things phase and also
during Step two, while you're making all that derivative work, you probably discovered things that you
enjoyed about the process. Oh, I really loved painting with these types of brushes. Oh, I really loved
writing in first person. Oh, I really love, you know, whatever. So now you kind of have a better
understanding of what you like, what you might be good at, what you might be bad at, what you could
improve on that is important to you, what you don't need to improve on, because you're never going to
do it again like you kind again. Like you kind of have a sense of those things, and so you can use that
in your tool belt as you start to mash up different things, different ideas you might have. I almost feel
like step three in many ways, like just kind of naturally happens over time. Like you might think, oh, I'll
just be a copycat forever if I copy people. But it's like, I really think if you're doing that and you're a fan
of lots of different things, it just starts to happen. It just kind of starts to seep into your work where
you're like, Well, I was imitating Grandma Moses, but I was also thinking about this, like Warhol painting
and this, like Cezanne painting. And then I just thought, you know, what if I and that's just kind of how it
goes, like, it's just sort of like, becomes this. It's like yours. Your brain just starts to evolve because
you're swimming and all these different things all the time. So it'll just kind of happen.
Elsie
Yeah, and I think be generous, citing your influences, praising your influences. I don't think it's ever cute
to be like to pretend like something came out of nothing.
Emma
It's not cute.
Elsie
I have this little quote on my Pinterest, and a look at it every day that says, like, I'm a museum of
everything I've loved. And I think that's such a great way to look at art and creativity in general, that for
our whole lives, we're basically like this little pin board, and we're just pinning more things on every day
to ourself, and then we move forward. And, you know, like when I was in fourth grade, my favorite novel
was Jurassic Park, like that will always be pinned on me. You know, that will always be one little part,
and it will never leave me my entire life. And you know what I mean? Like the books you love in
different parts of your life, the art the museum visits, the songs that you listened to 100 times when you
were going through a breakup or a sad time or a loss, or, you know, yeah, the ways you celebrate, like,
just all of those things. So no one, I don't know. So that my point is we're all going to be unique just by
living different lives.
Emma
Having different experiences, having different influences, being a fan of so many different things, you'll
never meet another person who's a fan of exactly all the same things you are, unless you only have,
like, two things you like, it's true. So if you have 100 and you're never going to meet someone who's
like, I love Alexander McQueen and the Muppets.
Elsie
Yeah, that's my sister. That's me. No, I think it's very special. So yeah, hopefully this was helpful for
Haley and for anyone who gets a little bit in your head about creativity, like, just keep making more.
Keep going. Like, don't stop yourself. Don't beat yourself up when you're new to something like, you're
going, you're going to make things inspired by other people. And like, so did Picasso honestly, like, so I
think that, I think it's good to know, I think it's good to like, embrace it, and I don't know, do it even
harder.
Emma
Yeah and it's just feedback, you know? So if you're like, at the point where you feel like you have
something original, and maybe you're offering it for sale, and you're getting a lot of feedback, that is that
looks exactly. Like, this artist, that's feedback that you should maybe take in and be like, Oh, maybe I'm
not quite there. Let's go back to, you know, mashing things up, trying to find my style again. It doesn't
mean like you're a bad person and you should never make art again. No, it doesn't mean that it's just
feedback of like, maybe you're not quite there. Maybe, you know, people are seeing it, you know, where
it's too similar to some of your heroes. So, yeah, go back to the drawing board. No big deal, yeah, for
sure.
Elsie
And hopefully, with any luck, you know, eventually you're gonna be you're gonna hear people saying,
Oh, this reminds me of and they'll say something that makes you, like, happy and proud. But is also
surprising. It's like, not someone you were trying to copy. It's just someone you like in the world.
Emma
Yeah, thank you. Wow. Never thought of that, but that's wonderful. Yeah, those are, like, the best
compliments.
Elsie
I think you know that you're doing good work when you start getting feedback and when people are
saying it reminds me of they're saying something different each time. I think that's a good litmus test.
Emma
People are like, you copied this, and they say five different things that it's like, Ah, that's good. Like,
you're actually in the phase where this is probably pretty original, because they can't even put their
finger on or you're getting different people saying, different artists, different things. Yes, good sign.
Elsie
Whoo, okay, we have a topic of discussion from Corey. Oh, it's a book question. You know, we love the
book question.
Emma
I love this question. I like wrote Corey back right away when I saw it from the email box, which, if you
ever get an email from me, a lot of times, I'm not replying to the one you sent, because we get sent
them in bulk. So it probably feels like out of the blue. It's just like random, like, hello, I'm answering a
question that you maybe sent me two weeks ago.
Elsie
I only write back to the ones that are very specific, niche questions that are only for me, and then the
rest of the questions I usually save for the podcast.
Emma
Mine's clearly random. Anyway, okay, Corey says I've had a book idea bouncing around my brain for
about six years. Recently, the characters have become so vivid that it feels like the moment to actually
write the thing in my imagination. I'm already casting the Netflix series, but I also know the first thing
most people write is rarely their best. So do I spend this year learning to write in quotes, on something
else and save this good idea for later, or do I just go all in on the story that refuses to leave my head?
Elsie
Okay, I think we have good advice for this. Yeah, do you want to go first? Tell us. I hope so. Tell us what
you responded to, Corey.
Emma
I was like, write the idea for sure. Because I was like, Corey, you're right. Usually people's first book
isn't very good, and that is true. I'm not going to sugarcoat it for you. Sometimes it's not true, but most
of the time it is true. It's not very good, but I lied, yeah, sometimes it's true, sometimes it's great, yeah.
But mainly I think, like, that's besides the point. I am kind of of the belief, and this is very woo, woo. But
when ideas come to us, it is just our job to bring them into the world, and maybe they're good, maybe
they it comes out and it's not great. Maybe you can sell it and it's best selling and it's Twilight. Maybe it's
something that you just show a couple friends and they're like, Oh, neat hobby, you know, like,
whatever. It doesn't really matter. That part is like, it's a thing, and you'll have to face it, but I think it's
besides the point, because I kind of think the whole thing is the journey, and this idea clearly won't
leave her head. So she should write it, and I hope it turns out amazing. I bet it'll turn out pretty good,
probably better than she thinks. But I don't think you should like practice writing something else. If you
want to practice, like exercises, that's great. Like, if you're like, I'm reading a writer. Like, I'm reading a
writing book and I'm doing like little exercises from the book, great, but I think, like, you've got this fully
formed idea what a gift. Write it, yeah?
Elsie
Like, worst case scenario, it turns out bad, and you can rewrite it later.
Emma
Yeah. Editing is easy.
Elsie
I have literally done that. And I like, I Okay. So first of all, to validate you. Six years is long time. You
have to do it. You have to do it. Like, listen to big sister. You have to, like, I don't think this is really even
optional. And when you're at the point where the characters feel real to you, like, you have to, so just
like, open up a Word document and start writing. And I think that the fear and the advice that like your
first novel is not going to be good. I think that it keeps a lot of people from writing a first novel. And
yeah, it might be true. It might it might break your heart a little, but like having recently had that
heartbreak myself. I promise you, it's worth it. It's not that big of a deal. It's totally recoverable. We just,
you know, and I'm glad I did it, and I'm glad I used my best idea first. I think you should. I think that
that's sort of like how you invite more ideas in the future, is like always using the one like you. Can't not
do this. So I think you know what you have to do. Corey, write us back in a month or two and tell us
you've started, and tell us how it's going, and we will be cheering you on. And for anyone who wants to
know if it's worth it to write a novel, even though it might be bad, it's worth it, like I promise you, it's so
worth it, and you don't have to do you can do a practice novel if you want. I've heard people that make
a case for this.
Emma
Especially if you don't really have an idea.
Elsie
It doesn't really matter what you write first. I don't think, like, just write something if you love it, you'll
probably still love it later. You can fix a lot of things in editing. Editing is magical. Like, I did not know
that before I started, like, it's not just writing a first draft. Like the editing is kind of where the magic
happens, and it's wonderful. And I think that I don't know, I just hate that so many people walk around
with like, stories inside of them, but they're not, like, willing to, like, take the risk of it being bad.
Emma
Just let it be whatever it is. Don't worry about it. It just doesn't really matter. There's no way to know. So
why even you know worry about it's like having regret about something you can't change. It's like, well,
you can walk around thinking about that every single day if you want. But I would point out that's maybe
not going to like, help you live your life so you just move forward, you know. And if you want to write,
just write. And maybe you'll write Twilight, and maybe you'll write a bunch of books that you just very
enjoyed writing. And that's fine, because what else you got to do with your time? You know? Like, just,
it's fun to do things that you enjoy. Why not? Why does it matter if it turns out a mate, like, what's, what
is this? You know, I just think it's that there's a lot of marketing for certain books where it's like, this is
their debut, and they won the Pulitzer, and that's great, cool marketing that makes me want to read a
book if I heard that. But that's marketing, okay, you don't need to worry about that. That's just like, how
they sell us stuff, like, you can just write and enjoy it. That's like, what it is.
Elsie
Yeah, it's magical. Yeah, you just, you just got to do it, and it takes away the fear. Like, once you've
done it, once, like, I have no fear for the future. I have no fear for my next book being a flop anymore,
which is so great, like, I don't care. And it, like, it like it has no power over me anymore. Yeah, so I think
that's a wonderful thing that you have ahead of you too.
Emma
And for Cory especially, I think too, it's like, it's a lot easier to write when you're inspired. So, and I still
think if you want to write a practice novel, great, go for it.
Elsie
But still do a topic you're obsessed with. I think, yeah, you should be obsessed with your own topic. You
have to.
Emma
I think it's hard to write something you're not obsessed with. I think it would be a bit of a drag. And it's
like, Well, I think the whole point is to enjoy writing so, and hopefully you have something in the end that
you can show, but I think the point was to enjoy it. So I kind of have to write stuff that I'm interested in.
Elsie
Okay, beautiful. Okay. So we have book report. Okay, I'm just gonna be honest, I'm having a really bad
reading month. I started three different books and I don't have anything to report on, so I'm just gonna
toss it to Emma and let her report. I have some months too.
Emma
I feel like I'm either, like, in a book and I'm like, so into it, or I'm like, I just started two different ones and
I wasn't sure about them, and then I, you know now I'm like, trying another one.
Elsie
I don't know, but I know I'm spinning out when I just keep starting things. And that happens to me, I do
that.
Emma
Yeah, okay, well, my book report is I just finished, State of Wonder.
Elsie
Sorry, it's one of my favorite books, I'm so happy.
Emma
Yeah, and well, in I think this is maybe the first, I'm thinking, I think it might be the first from the stash of
40 books you gave me for my 40th birthday, because this was in the stash.
Elsie
That was the only one I told you when I gave it to you. That was the only one that was really for me,
and all the rest of them were from, like, the email list and the podcast list.
Emma
To be honest, I didn't even remember that. I don't know why. I guess it was in there somewhere.
Because I was like, this will be the first one.
Elsie
Because I've already forced you to read a lot of my favorite books. Yeah, this was one of the ones that
was still lingering.
Emma
So, yeah, we do that too. This is only the second Anne Patchett that I've ever read. I don't know how
this is. You know, there's so many great books in the world, and I feel, I feel like I've read lots of great
books, but also, there's still so many more. You know, that's the great thing about reading. But anyway,
this was only my second hand hatchet. I also read Tom lake. So this was my second state of wonder.
This will have spoilers. So this has been out for like, more than 10 years, but still, if you haven't read
state of wonder and you want to and you don't want spoilers, don't listen to this part, just skip ahead. So
anyway, I loved this book. I thought it was super inspiring and so fun to read. It is very literary. So Anne
Patrick's a beautiful, beautiful writer. Most of this book takes place in the Amazon or the city near the
Amazon. Yeah, so it's very atmospheric. It's got a lot of environment. And if you're like, Well, what is the
book like? What's the genre? It's like, well, it's literary. It's a literary book. But also it is kind of science
fiction. We're dealing with scientists who are studying a tribe in the Amazon, because the women in the
tribe can have children up until they die. So they can have children in their 50s, 60s, 70s. And so the
scientists are studying them, hoping to replicate that for all women, so that women don't have to so that
they could have children later in life, if that's what they want to choose. So that's sort of the premise.
And the book starts with a death. A scientist has gone down there, and he's died, and so someone else
has dispatched another scientist to go find out what happened to him. There's not a lot of details around
it, maybe get his body, or at least get any personal items for his family, and to also check in on the
scientists who are down there developing this drug. Because it's taking a long, long time, as science
often does. So anyway, that's sort of what happens. I didn't know where we were going to go with it. I
was like, oh, and pageant, I'm sure it'll just be beautiful, and I'll be reading these beautiful descriptions
of the Amazon and that'll be fun. But then the plot gets wild. So these are the spoilers. So the very old
doctor who's down there studying she's 70 or like 73 she's pregnant, and she gives birth during the
book. And then the book opens with that scientist who dies. His name is Anders, and you find out later
that he's not dead, and they retrieve him from a neighboring tribe. That's like, cannibals. Yeah, there's
cannibals. There's a 70 year old having a baby. There's a dead man who's alive. It's crazy. So the plot
is actually like, wild, like, you know, if this was poorly written, it would be an insane soap opera, but it is
so beautifully written. It's this literary work for man Paget. So it's just a lot of fun. And there's an
Anaconda, there's, you know, just crazy, lots and lots of bugs, lots and lots of just madness, really. And
it's really beautiful and fun and crazy, and I thought it was a blast to read. So great review.
Elsie
I'm pretty sure I read four of her books, and this was my this is my favorite so far. It's my reigning
champion. Oh, I thought Dutch house was your favorite. No, this one, okay, I love Dutch house too. You
know for the Tom Hanks of it all.
Emma
Right, right, right, right. Of course, of course.
Elsie
But yeah, no, this book is, it's so magical. But I also wanted to, like note, if you've ever read the book
Big Magic, this is the book from Big Magic where Elizabeth Gilbert kind of says, like, the idea left her
and went to someone else. It was the idea for this book, and it went to Anne Patchett. So when I read
the book, I and I realized it was like, from Big Magic, which I am obsessed with. I don't know. I think it's
such a cool story, like an origin story for, like, you know, I love Big Magic, yes, the idea abandoned
Elizabeth Gilbert and made home in in patch it instead. I think it's great.
Emma
And that's why you have to write your idea.
Elsie
Cory, yes, yes. That's why you have to do it. Like I that is actually a fear that keeps me motivated. Is,
like the fear that if I don't write this book, that someone else will, and I think that's really, like, a big part
of where my first novel came from. Like, it like, if, you know, if I wouldn't have done it, and then it would
have just come out, and that happens all the time. That is real. It's a good source of inspiration. I mean,
motivation, yeah, a little bit of fear isn't gonna hurt you. A little fear is good.
Emma
Little fear is good, too much, and that's a problem. Yeah, yeah. I'll also say, just for anyone out there
who's like studying writing, because you want to write, this book has a lot of backstory, and I've seen
reviews where they say it's too much backstory, but I thought it was really well done. There is a lot of
backstory, and I thought it was really well done. So I think it's a great example of a book. If you're like,
I'm not good at backstory, I feel like, you know, I don't get it in there in the way that I want. I want to see
a writer who's really great writer do backstory. I would read state of wonder. It's got a whole bunch of
backstory and and you really don't feel it. It's just there and important. So anyway, if you're looking to
write more backstory, State of Wonder might be a good reference for you.
Elsie
Yeah, no, it probably is. I hate the writing advice when people say to cut all the backstory. Like, I just
think it's like, this is, this is not a 20,000 word screenplay.
Emma
Ann Patchett didn't, of course, I'm not Ann Patchett but nevertheless.
Elsie
It can just add so much, like, depth to your characters in the second half, you know, and so much
payoff. Like, I just think it's great. Yeah. Now it’s time for our special segment, a joke or a fact with
Nova. Hey, Nova, what do you have for us this week?
Nova
I have a riddle.
Elsie
A riddle. Okay, I'm ready.
Nova
Although it's a very long one.
Elsie
Okay, all right.
Nova
If there's 305 bricks on an airplane, one falls out. How many are there?
Elsie
304.
Nova
All right, how do you put an elephant in the fridge?
Elsie
I don't know.
Nova
You open the door, you put him in. You close the door. How do you put a giraffe in the fridge?
Elsie
You open it up, put him in and close the door.
Nova
No, you forgot one part. You open the door, you take the elephant out, and then you put him in. The
Lion King is hosting a party. Out of all the animals, which animals missing?
Elsie
Ooh, the hyena?
Nova
No, it's the giraffe, because he's stuck in the refrigerator. And then Sally's going to the party, and she
has to cross a river of very hungry looking crocodiles. How does she survive?
Elsie
How?
Nova
They're at the party, but she still dies. How?
Elsie
I don't know. How?
Nova
From the brick at the beginning one. That's the end of the riddle.
Elsie
Wow, that's an interesting riddle. I've never heard that one. Have a good week.
Nova
Bye.
Elsie
All right. Thank you so much for listening. So we are fresh out of hot takes for our segment. Hot take
debate. If you have a hot take, email it to us at podcast@abeautifulmess.com and the other request we
have is we are really debating if we're going to do. Do summer, if we're going to do the whole summer
schedule, if we're going to do every other week, if we're going to do one a month, we just don't know.
But the truth is, we need more ideas. Yeah, if we're going to do them, it's possible still, but we need
more ideas. So email us your request specifically for like, your dream episode request at podcast at a
beautiful mess.com and we will try our best to fill the summer for you.