Tiffany(00:00):
Don't worry your pretty little head about all this money making business, all this thinking, just go out and find yourself a fabulous husband. He'll take care of you. Ooh, those were the messages that Emily Williams licensed clinical psychologist got as she was growing up in the South. She was given the message that, you know, she is just a pretty little girl, small. She didn't really need to, you know, worry about things because it was up to her husband to take care of it. Fast forward to today, Emily is a primary breadwinner charging premium fees in her private practice, and she is amazing. I have been working with Emily for multiple years and I'm constantly inspired learning new things, encouraged just awed by seeing her journey and how she continues to chart her own path when it comes to being a professional, a business owner in the therapy space.
Tiffany(00:54):
In this episode, we are going to talk with Emily about her decision to leave her university job, which by all external appearances provided security prestige, the ability to do different types of work. We're gonna talk about why she ultimately decided to leave that position and jump into her own private practice. Then we're going to talk about how and why she made the decision to start a insurance based private practice and why she ultimately realized that was not sustainable for her and what it was like for her to set off to go where the sidewalk ends and create her own premium fee, cash pay private practice from being a little girl in the south who was told she didn't need to worry about money to being the primary breadwinner for her family. Mom of three, somebody who's willing to take big risks in order to achieve her ultimate dream.
Tiffany(01:49):
I know you are going to learn so much in this episode. If you want to discover how private practice therapists like Emily are working with fewer clients and making more money, you have about two more hours to join our live training event. We are kicking off the day this episode is published. You can join us for our how to charge like a Six Figure Therapist Live event because the fact is you have worked hard to build your private therapy practice. And now, my dear listener, you need to charge prices that reflect that work. Go to the link around this episode, make sure you register for how to charge like a six figure therapist, clear out your schedule so you can attend live. Now, let's jump into this episode and hear what that journey was like for Dr. Emily Williams. Let's go.
Intro:
I think there's a difference between saying what your fee is and like fully committing to it. I believe in this like law of attraction, but you also have to take action. I don't think I do enough to help other people despite being, despite being a therapist, I was worried that I'd end up only serving wealthy people.
You know, I was being so delusional about my actual cost, right? I wasn't actually paying myself a real salary. Now that I am charging more, I'm not lying to myself.
This is ridiculous. Completely broken man. If people knew who they were, I wanna do what she's doing, like she's doing this.
Tiffany:
Okay, folks, welcome to today's episode of the Money Sessions. We are here with Emily, so I'm just gonna let you all know I've known Emily for a long time. We've worked together on the behind the scenes stuff, so we're gonna do our best to stick to the script. Emily is a delight. Emily excites me. I'm gonna try to keep it under lock and key. So let's go Emily, let's start by having you tell folks a little bit about you in your practice as it now stands.
Emily(03:17):
Okay. So first of all, thank you for having me on. I'm very excited. I'm just very happy to be here. So my name is Emily Williams and I am a licensed clinical psychologist with a solo private practice located just outside Indianapolis, Indiana. I'm the owner of Silver Maple Psychology, where I help anxious, high achieving professionals set limits with their emotionally immature parents and loved ones. And then I also have subspecialties in adult A DHD and working with children of narcissists. When I'm not doing all that, I am a mother of three and that keeps me pretty busy.
Tiffany(03:56):
Three humans and four cats.
Emily(03:58):
Four cats. Yeah. Three humans and four cats.
Tiffany(04:02):
Okay, I'm gonna do, so Emily has been like, you have been meant to be a money sessions guest way before we even started bringing the money sessions back, so I'm really excited this conversation feels like for me, it's been a long time coming. We're gonna go way back to well I'll just say overall we're gonna talk about Emily, your journey from working in university to going to a insurance-based private practice to ultimately leaving that and creating a cash pay premium feed practice that is full, always full. So let's go way back to your uni university days when you were there. Actually just take us to kind of the day-to-Day life, your day-to-day experience back then, and also what time period was that?
Emily(04:50):
Okay, so let's see if I can get all that in. I started working in university counseling centers as a practicum student and then never left. Hmm. So I, I just stayed for over 15 years at different university counseling centers. I became Dr. Williams while working there. I worked as a staff psychologist as a training director for students who wanna become psychologists or lcsw and I was also a testing coordinator. The benefits of working in a university counseling center is you have a captive audience. There's always folks to see. Having a job like that gave me pretty great health insurance, retirement benefits time off as long as it was with the students and when they were off, that's when you got to take your breaks. But I also saw clients, but I also did outreach and I would do training. I was always up to date on the latest psychology and ethics and all of that. So it kept me pretty busy and there was a lot of variety.
Tiffany(05:58):
So that sounds, there are probably a lot of folks listening right now who are in a position like this and, and it sounds great. You're doing a diversity of work. You have benefits, you're secure, you have always people there that you can work with. You also in different positions of authority. You, you've worked your way up. You are somebody who people look up to. There's a lot of prestige. That sounds phenomenal. So what in the world would compel you to say like, okay, I'm gonna leave all of this and go into private practice. Why that choice?
Emily(06:24):
Yeah. Well that's a good question. So a couple of things about university counseling centers. So one, all those benefits are amazing, but the actual pay is pretty low. So it, it was around 50,000 when I was working there and I don't think for a staff psychologist, it's gone up all that much. Wow. So there's no way you're gonna hit six figures. With that. I think the other thing is, is that people often thought that university counseling centers would have less acuity, but what ended up happening is the clients that would come to staff psychologists were the ones who were most acute and in imminent risk. So I was seeing folks who just had sexual assaults who were having their first manic episode prodomal psychosis. So we needed to be on all the time and we were expected to be generalists.
Emily(07:21):
And as the, I guess the population really struggled more with depression and anxiety. The demand for our services just kept growing, but there weren't resources to compensate for that. Therefore, university counseling centers started to feel a lot like community mental health centers. Interesting. And you needed to, the, the mentality was, I need to take whoever comes in the door and it's my job to kind of help them take good care of them and send them on their way. Referring them out didn't make a lot of parents happy 'cause they were often paying or, or the students themselves were paying a lot of money and they often expected counseling services to be part of their educational experience.
Tiffany(08:09):
Educational, it's, I'm surprised to hear this. It's surprising to hear first that the pay, even at that high of a level, the pay is so low. And then the idea, you know, again, I had the idea, and I'm sure others did too, of like, oh, college students, the kind of transitional questions of life. How lovely. But you're talking about no, these are people who are leaving home for the first time. The most acute are the ones who come to the staff psychologist level. So you were dealing with very high intensity caseload. You had to key people and also you didn't have the resources you need to actually really show up and do your work well within your organization.
Emily(08:43):
Absolutely. And so at some point I hit my, I guess I hit my mid forties and I started to get too tired. Mm-Hmm. . There wasn't time for my family and the this, there was a mentality in there like do more with less. And there was a also a moral kinda ethical obligation. We've gotta help these students. And so the idea of that you, I'm sure you've heard is like setting oneself on fire to keep others warm. That was, that was just sort of understood that that was something that we needed to do and that it wasn't really gonna change.
Tiffany(09:17):
Hmm. What was the straw? Like someone could stay in that for another 20 years with believing those systems, being with the community who's reinforcing like, this is what we do. Like it's a, it feels good to ones esteem, especially as helpers. Okay, I'm gonna just keep showing up. So what was, I'll say that, and going into private practice is a huge leap. One has to really, it takes a lot of ugh, gusto to make that change. What was the straw that broke the camel's back that made you say, I'm, I gotta leave here. This is it. I'm gonna do this other thing. I
Emily(09:50):
Short version is I left one counseling center hoping for a better fit elsewhere. And I realized, oh, this is the same thing. And so I realized that I couldn't keep jumping into the same experience and expecting a different outcome. And I wanted to have a job that had more flexibility. And this was basically the only one I knew of was to go into private practice. So I ended up having about a three month time period before, you know, the money ran out . So, so in about three to four months I did a crash course in how to start a private practice. I did, I will add, I threw in a stent as for about a year as a contract worker for a group private practice. So I learned some of the ins and outs, but I had no idea what it took to start a business until I was like, you know what, I don't wanna give this person 40% as a contract worker when I could take home 100% of it. So
Tiffany(10:55):
Smokes.
Emily(10:56):
So I think it was I was really tired and I think I had gone way past my limit for a long time. And so by the time I was ready to go, I was ready to do whatever it took for a different things. So you go
Tiffany(11:10):
Into private practice, you realize, okay, what you want, you can't get it working for somebody else. You have to go work for yourself. And when you first went into private practice, you started out, you started out on insurance panels or you later got on, talk a little bit about the choice to go into private practice full-time with being in paneled with insurance.
Emily(11:29):
Right. Okay. So I'm gonna admit that I was wildly ignorant of what it would take. I had no idea. I was like, how hard could this be? You know? Lemme pause,
Tiffany(11:40):
Lemme pause. This is great. This is great. Uhhuh . So when you talk about being wildly ignorant of what it would take, so, okay, I'm gonna back up even more. You are working in this group practice, they're taking 40% and you have a thought that so many therapists have, why would I give away 40% when I could just go earn a hundred percent? I'm just gonna jump in. How hard could it be? What were you wildly ignorant of? What, what did you not even know you didn't know when you took that leap?
Emily(12:08):
I was, first of all, I was unaware of how much infrastructure would be needed. You know, not just the, the software to run the practice, but being HIPAA compliant in all of the forms. I didn't ask myself important questions like, well, what kind of a schedule would I like? I'd never really thought about how to market. I'd never had to market before. And that's actually where insurance came in because I thought, Hmm, I'll use insurance to subsidize the marketing. I'll have them come to me. That's one less thing I have to think about or so I thought
Tiffany(12:45):
It's
Tiffany(12:46):
Reasonable that thought. Yeah. Yeah.
Emily(12:49):
It is until it isn't. We'll get to that .
Tiffany(12:51):
We'll get to that. Okay. This is really helpful. So when you actually dove into private practice, which I'm glad you did, 'cause maybe if you knew what it would entail, it would've been a little scarier to dive in. So, you know, here we talk a lot about therapists going into private practice for themselves, maybe leaving community mental health, leaving group practice. But you're talking about that 40% year paying to the group owner, the therapist. We can feel really frustrated about it, but in reality, you're now aware that accounts for infrastructure marketing, like all the things that person is doing to run their business, is being taken off a person's plate when they're working for a group, which is a fabulous choice for some people. You decided to go for your, go into a private practice for yourself realize, oh man, there's all this infrastructure marketing, all these things I need to do. Insurance was one thing you could do to have the marketing taken care of. So referrals just came to you at that point. Or at the point when you started feeling like, oh, maybe insurance panels are not gonna be for me. What were some red flags that indicated maybe the way you'd set up your practice being paneled with insurance? Maybe that wasn't for you.
Emily(14:00):
Okay, so this is probably where you enter my life. So I'm gonna make a plug here first for Alison ER's abundance party. Yes. So when I started the private practice her program was really, really helpful to 'cause like, it has like the nuts and the bolts of how do you do this? So that was a lifesaver. And I, I believe that there was a, a section where, where you were introduced and, and you had a space. And I was like, oh, I'm gonna start following this Tiffany person. And around 2022 I, I'd been getting your email. So it's like water dripping on a stone. And then I just kept reading them and I kept reading them and it just sounded better and better. It was wearing me down. It was so that was one. The second thing was I started in, instead of being grateful and just so excited to have this practice, I noticed that I was feeling annoyed and resentful and also fearful about insurance companies.
Emily(14:59):
They were starting to request the files of clients more often. They would ask for prior authorizations. They would threaten to take the money back and they could do that. They would just pull it right out of my bank account. And that was a really terrible feeling. And I, I realized that what I thought, which was insurance is gonna help clients access mental health care, and I'm gonna be able to show up in this great centered way. I no longer was because I was scared and frustrated and annoyed, and I still wasn't getting compensated at the rate that a, a premium fee cash practice would be. So I had to see 25 to 30 clients a week to meet the financial needs of my family. So I basically recreated a system that I had left.
Tiffany(15:56):
No wild how we do that.
Emily(15:57):
I know. It's terrible.
Tiffany(15:59):
And, and you didn't know, you didn't know until you had the study, like the water torture of Tiffany coming into your inbox. I wanna highlight this. I think this is very important. Your order of operations leaving the university job, supplementing your income with a group practice getting on insurance panels to get a study stream of referrals so you can actually start getting a hang on. What it's like to be in private practice working with Alison per that abundance practice building. Phenomenal. So affordable teaches you everything you need to know to actually like, get into private practice and get it going. You get in there suddenly insurance panels don't seem so great in 2022 at this point, when it started dawning on you that you might have to do something different again, seeing 25 to 30 clients a week, what were you typically taking home annually at that point?
Emily(16:52):
Gross. 165,000. Which is really, I mean, that sounds really good. Yeah. and I, I think when I reached out to you, there was probably a message that said, and I don't, you know, I do all my own billing. I do all my own scheduling. Like I was this one woman show and trying to hustle and hustle and hustle, and I was tired. And I began to ask, what if it didn't have to be this hard? And so that was the siren song of your emails. Like, what if it didn't have to be this hard? Yeah,
Tiffany(17:29):
Yeah. Holy mackerel. Okay, so you're exhausted. Again, you're making amazing money by all appearances. But the but the reality of how hard you have to work and the stress and the fear, the clawbacks are gonna come and the having to see so many clients, plus do your notes on top of it. Do the administration behind the scenes just a ton. You're exhausted. So you start thinking, all right, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna explore this cash pay premium fee thing. What scared you about the thought of going into a premium fee cash pay practice at this point in your career?
Emily(18:12):
I was mainly afraid of change. And a lot of, I, I got this big nebulous fear. I didn't know exactly what I was scared of. I just knew I felt like it wouldn't work and it wouldn't be okay. Mm. And very few of the fears were actually based in reality. I just felt scary. 'cause I didn't, I didn't know what to expect. I think too, if I'm really honest for a long time in my life I had kind of wanted a rescue. So I wanted somebody other than me, which I bet a lot of us can relate to, but I wanted somebody other than me to know exactly what I needed and to make that happen and to take care of me . And it wasn't until I accepted, oh wait, the best person, the person who knows me the best and knows what I need the best that is me. And so once I accepted and took ownership of that, then I was able to make changes that meant if I failed, I could pivot and try again. But that was a shift for me.
Tiffany(19:17):
Hey, Tiffany, here I'm jumping in to ask you a question. Do you know how many clients you need to see in order to make your ideal income in your private practice? Once your schedule is full? How can you keep making more money? Because you certainly can't keep adding clients to your roster. Are you struggling to explain why you are raising your fees in private practice? Are you even just struggling to turn your private therapy practice into the lifestyle of your dreams after you did all this work to get it going? Do you feel guilty about raising your therapy fees? If your answer to any of these questions is yes, then get in today. Today we are starting our live how to charge Like a six figure therapist training event. If you wanna be surrounded by hundreds of therapists who are doing a deep examination of their therapy practice and trying to understand, look, I understand that charging higher fees is a mindset and I'm ready to do that work. If you wanna be part of that community, if you wanna be part of a live training with me, go to the li link below this episode, join how to charge like a six figure therapist right now. We're getting started and we would love to see you there because we know that therapists with more money can make more of an impact and have even more capacity to do. Good. You picking up what I'm putting down? Okay, let's get back to the episode.
Tiffany(20:45):
That's a huge shift. I know we probably talked about this before, this idea of therapists are the folks who like to have a order of operations that are clear, go to school, get your a get, get license. Like all the steps for therapists are just laid out. We're a students. We, we like to get things done. We like to do a good job, we like to please our teachers. Even going into a private practice using insurance is another form of that because the insurance, you, you know what you have to do. Check the boxes, they give you all the bureau bureaucratic structure to make it happen. It's only when we say we're gonna leave all the structures and make our own way, meaning we have to find out how to get clients ourselves with no insurance who can actually pay us. That's a, there's, there are lots of different ways therapists can do that. There are all kinds of programs out there that help therapists market, but it really is individual. Like what works for every, what works for one therapist is not gonna work for another therapist. So it's the first time you said this to me, what did you say we're the It's
Emily(21:47):
The first time the sidewalk ends. Yeah. Say that. Talk about that. The Shell Silverstein. Well this idea that maybe I could go to a premium fee practice well that, that to me was like, where the sidewalk ins, like how high could my phoe be? What areas of specialty could I have? What hours could I work? And all of this was something that I would create that would be a reflection of my values. The, the system I'm in, the time of life I'm in and, and I, I kept looking around saying, okay, well where's the boss ? And it, like, it took me a while to be like, oh, I'm the boss. And that's freeing. But there's also a lot of responsibility in that too.
Tiffany(22:30):
Yeah, it's a big leap. It's one of the, when thinking about the different developmental levels business owner, a therapist, business owner can make, there's different skills you need as a working in community mental health different than having an insurance based practice different than having your own premium fee, cash based practice that's not relying on insurance. You really do have to take responsibility for your own outcomes there in a way that many therapists probably have never had to do. Your own outcomes and your own strategy for how to get those outcomes because there's no one size fits all. Holy mackerel. I love that you told me that. You wrote that in an email to me. This is where the sidewalk ends. I was like, I love it. If it's so accurate, it's so accurate. There's no road after that. You make your own road. Okay. So let's take us to where you are today. What's your fee
Emily(23:21):
Intake is two 90 and I do 50 minute sessions for two 50. If you really want more of me you can pay 3 95 for like an hour and a half.
Tiffany(23:32):
Glorious. Holy mackerel. Okay. Well, when you were doing insurance, just on average, what was your typical reimbursement rate? Or on Yeah,
Emily(23:40):
The best, the best was like between one 30 and 1 35.
Tiffany(23:45):
1 35. So maybe 1 35 to two 90 for intakes, 2 54, just regular
Emily(23:52):
Sessions. All of like the regular ones. Mm-Hmm. ,
Tiffany(23:54):
What was it like to charge two 50 for the first time or even two 90 for an intake? What was it like to charge that for the first time?
Emily(24:02):
All right. Do you mean what was it like to charge it? Or what was it like to notify my clients that they're going from a $30 copay to paying the full fee
Tiffany(24:12):
. Okay. So you really had, you had clients who were paying a $30 copay and you told those people they're going up to,
Emily(24:18):
Initially it was like up to like 180 to 200 at the time. Yeah. But that's a huge leap.
Tiffany(24:24):
Yeah. Massive. Okay. That,
Emily(24:29):
Oh, I think I lost you. It's gonna be going up. Oh, wait a minute. Say that again. I lost you.
Tiffany(24:35):
Oh, I'm here. Here we go. Can you hear me now? Mm-Hmm. . Okay. what was it like to inform those clients who had up until this moment only paid you a $30 copay to let them know they're now paying 180 or 200 per session, or they will be within a short period of time?
Emily(24:56):
Again, I'm gonna plug limb here. for those who are listening, I promise I'm not getting paid to do this. That I needed the support of the community to practice putting out there that, you know, hello Sarah as of this date, my fee is going to be $200 and you'll be expected to pay that with the credit card on file. Let's pause, pause. You know, like, wait that second to ten second pause where I'm trying not to like die. And then ask them what they think and feel about that. And it was very vulnerable, to be honest. And so I had to do a lot of internal work on my own and, and through limb to get to a place where I realized that whether they accepted it or didn't, didn't really have a lot to do with me. It had a lot more to do with many, like much broader money issues that I could help them through or maybe I couldn't. But that it required me leaning in and being a lot more vulnerable than I think hiding behind insurance.
Tiffany(26:09):
Can you say it, it, can you say a little bit more, when you say it felt vulnerable, it required you to be vulnerable in a new way. Can you say more about what you mean?
Emily(26:21):
For me, I don't know if this is true for everybody, but for me, setting boundaries based off of what I actually think, want, feel, and need is a very vulnerable process because I'm letting myself be seen. And I, so that feels vulnerable and it's unknown. I have no, and it's very intimate. I don't know what they're gonna say. . They may really love it. They may feel abandoned. I mean, there's so many clinical issues at work when you, when you do money work or when you uplevel. And so it was vulnerable for me to put out there, Hey, clients, this is what I need and I understand if that is a place that you can't meet me. I respect that. I will help you find the people that can, but it's also vulnerable because I also need to eat. And so I didn't know going in to any of these conversations who would stay and who would ultimately leave because of a multitude of reasons.
Tiffany(27:27):
How, how did your clinical work, or how has your clinical work changed as a result of going through this journey yourself?
Speaker 3 (27:42):
So,
Emily(27:46):
One, I am a lot more compassionate for myself and clients who are afraid. I'm also a lot more compassionate and curious when people's defenses pop up because I understand how and why they would come. So there's a lot more curiosity and I'm not as afraid to go to those levels and understand that there are actually opportunities for deeper connections and to work through things that maybe they haven't had anybody else in their life with whom they had a safe enough, trusting enough, honest enough relationship where they could talk about these hard things. And the person sitting on the other side doesn't shame them, criticize them kick them out the door 'cause of their own stuff.
Tiffany(28:33):
That's great. Beautiful. That's why you can charge these premium fees. , you went first, you know how to do the work. What Okay. Strategic advice. Strategic advice or mindset shifts. So we're talking to someone right now. Mm-Hmm. , she's a hard worker. She's busted her behind her whole life. She's been the one who did all the things. Please, the people, puts everyone else first, setting herself on fire to keep other people warm. And now she's in a place where she's seeing 25 or 30 clients, she's on insurance panels and she's thinking, ah, what, right. Do I have to make these changes? Or, or, or is it even possible for me to do this? What would you say to her based on your own experience?
Emily(29:18):
Okay. I'm thinking of two or three things. Yeah. The first is, I would encourage this person to examine their fears and the connection those fears have to their worth. So specifically what I mean is if this person says, I'm afraid no one would pay 250, and that's, that's because I'm not worthy or good enough. I would really wanna challenge that because there are a lot of reasons why somebody would or wouldn't pay two 50 a session, and none of them have to do with that person's inherent, the therapist's inherent worth. And so that, that's one. And if you get them two tied together, I think you can have problems. I mean, I'm only as worthy as my, as what people are willing to pay.
Tiffany(30:08):
There. There was a little moment of cutout, but I, we got the story. But say it one more time if you can, if you, you said if somebody is afraid to charge a higher fee, because what you said they need to examine, what was the
Emily(30:20):
Initial thing? They examine their fears and how the, the things that they're afraid of are connected to their sense of worthiness. Yes.
Tiffany(30:26):
Beautiful. Okay. That's number one.
Emily(30:31):
In inherent in that fear you were talking about, like, oh my gosh, can I do it? Will I end up worse off? There's a lot of binary polarized thinking where we get stuck in this star, this really dark place. So I would encourage folks contemplating this to say, well, okay, maybe I don't need, you know, what if, what if two or three people would pay this fee? What would it feel like? What would it, what would it be like? And, and more importantly, how might I go about finding these ideal clients who have the resources and the motivation to work with me? So at the end of that, I think it's like, it's afraid to be, it's okay to be afraid because I'm afraid we're all afraid and take strategic action anyway. And you're going to make mistakes and that's okay. Yeah. But, but staying stuck in it, like, you gotta remember there's a third option. Yes.
Tiffany(31:30):
I love also that you didn't, you, you're, you're kind of letting people know you don't need to go from, I'm leaving all insurance panels tomorrow and I'm charging $700, and here we go. You're saying, well, just imagine what it might be like to have two or three people who can pay you two 50. Imagine how you might achieve that. Just start in little bits. And you said something around you having the a community to help you through that. I hear that over and over again. It's like, even if you get stuck, like, I don't even know how to get three, find the people who say, well, let's think about it together. Hey, it's scary. Let's do it together.
Emily(32:03):
Yes. I grew up in a kind of with a mindset that I needed to do it all by myself, and that if I couldn't do it all by myself, there was something wrong with me. And so what I would say is that the need for, or I need it, I can't, I'm not gonna project that onto others, but I need a really supportive engaging community who's going to recognize the courage and the strength it takes to, to level up like this. And I kind of think about it like the people who cheer runners on at marathons I'm married to a runner and I go, and what I will see on the sidelines is that the really wise people who have been cheering for a long time, they don't just cheer. They have cattle bells and noise makers, and they're, they're the kind of folks I want in my corner because they're cheering you on even when you're stumbling. And, and so I guess at the bottom, at the end of it, I think the world has a lot of critics sound. Did I cut out again? Oh, no. Can you hear me?
Tiffany(33:10):
Yep. It came back. Okay. For folks who are listening too and hearing you, I'm
Emily(33:12):
So sorry.
Tiffany(33:13):
Zoom just did a whole interface. It could be on my side. And so we're, we're wrestling with Zoom, some Zoom updates, so you're totally fine. So you were saying this cowbell Bell, people who really know how to cheer you, and you said, I want people in my corner. Who, and then what did you say?
Emily(33:26):
All right. I want people in my corner who are going to cheer me on, not only when I'm succeeding, but when I'm struggling. Yes. And also who can, can point out kindly and gently, but also like firmly where my blind spots are. Yeah. The world has a lot of haters and critics and people on the sidelines. So I really think that having a supportive community who get it like is so critical. So I want everybody to surround themselves with those kind of folks so that we don't have to do it alone.
Tiffany(34:04):
Yes. People like you, I'm just like, I just wanna be around you all the time. So folks listening, you have probably already heard this in Emily's story, but your ability to think clearly, your ability to, I don't know how you feel on the inside, but at least by all outward appearances, calmly move forward with challenges, even when it feels scary, you're calmly moving forward. I love your way of thinking, and I can imagine your clients are so fortunate to have found you and to be able to work with somebody like you, who you kind of have like an unassuming just, here's what I am, and yet what you've been able to accomplish has been just phenomenal. So let's take a little bit of time to talk about kind of your, your coming up, your origin story. Someone might be listening and say, well, that's easy, easy for Emily, you know, even though we hear right now, it's not easy.
Tiffany(34:53):
We heard about the struggle, but I'd be curious to hear, well, first of all you're a mom. You've been a primary breadwinner in your household, right? So semi I, I'm gonna even debunk people out that might say, well, she can do that. You know, she, she maybe only has a kid, or she has a kid that's not hard. You have multiple kids. They might say, well, you have a wealthy spouse to support you. You are the breadwinner. So you've actually had to take on navigating motherhood, navigating being the primary breadwinner and taking these risks to leave and up level when you are the one who has to be bringing in the money. Can you talk a little bit about some of the challenges you faced making these changes as a mom, as a primary breadwinner when you are the safety net?
Emily(35:41):
Right. I think you, you hear it in my story that I didn't actually take the leaps until there was enough safety it in my, in my family system so that I could, so I didn't leave a university counseling center setting until my husband who's a professor achieved tenure and that. And so I was like, okay, I know he can get the health insurance. And, and so it was almost like trading off. Hmm. So, but I grew up without a whole lot of expectation that I was gonna be a breadwinner. I grew up, I mean, you can, if you hear there's a southern accent. So I grew up in North Carolina's Southern, I was I'm very, I'm about the size of most fourth graders, so people, people. It's true. People often didn't assume that I was gonna do a whole lot, even though I was smart, it was kind of assumed that I would marry some person who would support me. And instead I ended up going to grad school first, getting the doctorate first and putting my partner through grad school while also giving birth Wow. Three times and . So it's no wonder that I was tired. Yeah.
Tiffany(37:05):
So take us back to, to Emily in the south little girl. Oh
Emily(37:08):
Boy. Uhhuh .
Tiffany(37:09):
What, what, say a little bit more about the messaging you got, like what kind of, what expectations. You said a little bit about it, but just take me into the day of the life of a little girl in the a little girl in the south who's small. What's the cultural surround?
Emily(37:25):
All right. So I grew up in the seventies and eighties, so let's hope that some of the things have changed. But I was expected to be cute wearing like smocked dresses with little bows in my hair, and I needed, and my job was to look pretty and smile , look on your face. I hope people can see this. So, yeah, it and so I, I even when I was in grad school I remember the last year of my doctoral program and I was in a cohort with three other men, and I ended up finishing my dissertation before all of them, but nobody even noticed because I, I was flying under the radar, like, like, oh, she's so cute. And so I guess on some, I think I, I spoke to you about this, that sometimes it was nice not to be a target. Mm. But also being like, not having a whole lot expected of me was strange. Mm.
Tiffany(38:28):
How did you, why do you think that you went on to be the opposite of those messages? What, how were you able to act so in opposition to the expectation of just being pretty, keep your mouth shut, smile, get married, take care of the household? How
Emily(38:44):
Did get my MRS degree?
Tiffany(38:46):
Yeah, right, good. How were you able to do something totally different?
Emily(38:51):
Okay. So one, I will acknowledge that a lot of those messages really me off because I was smart. And but there didn't seem to be a whole lot of interest in that. That's one. I think the second was, I was raised, and this is important, I was raised by women by a baby boomer. You know, both of my parents are baby boomers. And my mother once pulled me aside and when I said, she said, what do you wanna be when you grow up? And I'm like, I dunno, a mother or this or that. And I'll never forget, she pulled me aside and she said, Emily, you can be whatever you want to be. And there was something in the ferocious, in her eyes that sort of communicated to me what I later learned, which is that women of that generation didn't have the educational opportunities. My mother even had to quit work in I think like 1972 because you couldn't show when you were pregnant, you couldn't work.
Tiffany(39:54):
Wow. That's wild to to think about. That feels so long ago. But actually it was not, it was just our right. One generation above us that had this Mm-Hmm. . And so you, your mom was pulling you aside and saying, you have an opportunity to do something. Do not squander it on some level.
Emily(40:10):
Absolutely. And so I think I, I listened to that and I also wanted to have the freedom and the independence and the choice that I saw a lot of people, a lot of women in the South being financially dependent on the men in their lives. And that wasn't a good fit for me.
Tiffany(40:30):
I'm not you, you're not doing it. Okay. So let's just take a couple of more minutes. We're gonna go off script a little bit. Okay. you now tell us a little bit about what your practice looks like today. How many folks do you see? We know you're charging great fees. What's your day to day look like?
Emily(40:45):
I work three and a half days a week three days in the office, and like a half day telehealth from home. I see anywhere. I still see more than I want to, but I see like 14 to 20 clients a week. Almost all of them are my ideal clients. So I'm practicing within my niche, which has increased my bandwidth, and I really love what I do. And yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm really happy I've been able to reclaim my personal life, which I didn't have before.
Tiffany(41:18):
That's something that really impresses me and that inspires me. And I've been watching for some years about how you have, again, you still have work to do. You still want to cut down a few more and free up a little, a little more time, but you have really designed a practice and a lifestyle that has allowed you spaciousness to think slow down, be present in other areas of your life in a way that a lot of therapists ha ha have been unable to do. What has that afforded you, or how are you able to show up differently? I'm a, I'm a newer parent. I have a almost 3-year-old and a 5-year-old. So thinking about you at the university days or you at the insurance days, how are you able to show up differently as a mom now that you have a little more, a lot more compared to then spaciousness in your life?
Emily(42:01):
So in prep for this podcast, I actually asked my children this question. 'cause I was like, well, what's different? 'cause I for the audience, I have 18, almost 16-year-old and a 12-year-old. Wow. And they said, well, mom, you're far less stressed. You're fun and you will now sing and dance. You have the time to like show up for our events and I'm actually present as opposed to being so tired that I look at them with this sort of look that says, please don't speak . I'm too tired to hear you. I, I still struggle 'cause I think this is true for anybody. I still struggle to find that the balance, so it's ongoing about work versus rest, but I'm able to show up and be present and pay attention to them and get to know my family on a really deep level. And what I've discovered personally is, is that the older they got, the more they've needed me emotionally, and I'm, I'm really grateful that I'm able to be there for them.
Tiffany(43:11):
Me too. What a change. Yeah. What a change. Any final thoughts you wanna leave the audience with as they're sitting, listening to you saying, wow, this little girl grew up in the south, was told just go find a man. You know, that's your job and you really knocked it outta the park, got your PhD performed better than maybe your, some of your male pairs around you, if not all of them went on this trajectory to actually set up a practice that so many therapists dream about. I don't know. Any final words you wanna leave folks with before we end anything they should know?
Emily(43:52):
One of the phrases that I, I believe, and I I I believe it in my bones, is that there are many ways to do things well. And so since there are many ways to do things, well really take time to figure out what works for you and, and, and know that that's gonna be different than somebody else's practice. But really, there's only, there's only one of you. And so your practice is going to be unique and uniquely reflect, reflect what you have to offer. And so don't be afraid to do that because you're the only person who can.
Tiffany(44:30):
That's right. That's right. Nobody's gonna tell you the way, nobody can tell you what's gonna work for you. That's right. On where can folks and there might be some therapists out there who are the children of emotionally immature parents, and that might be also impacting their ability to take these big leaps. If folks wanna learn more about you, learn more about how you've actually set up your practice, even how you work, maybe give you a call to do some consultation. Like, how did you actually set this up? Paid folks, we're not talking to any coffee chats. We're talking to you, paying Emily for her time to learn what it took for her to do this. What can folks find you?
Emily(45:04):
Okay. the easiest way is my website, which is, and this is all one word, silver maple psychology.com or my ridiculously long email address, which is eWilliams@silvermaplepsychology.com. I don't at this point have too much of a social media presence. Maybe that's something for later on, but right now I'm kind of happy as is.
Tiffany(45:33):
Okay. I was trying to end, but you just threw this amazing thing at the end. . we'll also drop these links to both email and your website, be in the show notes so folks can go look at that. Final thing, we're just gonna pick this last bit up. So many therapists say, I can't have a premium fee cash-based practice because I'm not good at social media and I don't wanna have a YouTube channel. Instagram and a TikTok. You don't do any of that. So mm-Hmm. What do you have to say for those who are like, I can't do it because I don't wanna be on Instagram. What do you say to them?
Emily(46:02):
I would explore what they're afraid of.
Tiffany(46:06):
See folks, this is why you need to email Emily, right? It's all just excuses or it's all just a, a reason not to take the leap. You clearly don't have to have a social media presence to have a full practice referrals coming to you, people wanting to work with you, and people willing to pay you, what is this, $315 if they wanna do some extended work. Thank you, Emily. It has been my pleasure to speak with you. I always love talking to you, and I really appreciate you coming to share what your journey has been like for all of the folks out there who are looking to do something like you have done. Thank you.
Emily(46:38):
Absolutely. Thank you so much.
Tiffany(46:44):
All right. Whatever you're doing, I want you to pause. If you're driving, pull over. If you're chopping a carrot, put that knife away. If you're making sweet love to your woman, well, I mean, that's, that's, that's kind of flattering in a weird way. Huh. You can go, you can just go ahead and you can keep doing that. But for the rest of you, if you learn even just one thing of value today, please share this episode with even just one therapist who could benefit from the message. Here's how, if you're listening on iTunes, click on the episode and you'll see a small purple circle with three dots. Click on those dots and you're gonna see the option to share at the bottom of the list. Click that, and you can just go ahead and share it on Facebook, or you can even just text it to one therapist who you know needs to hear it. If you're listening on Stitcher, just tap the triangle icon on the upper right corner. It's next to the menu that displays your upcoming playlist. You'll see the option to share the episode you're currently listening to right on Facebook. Look, it's time to get the word out. We gotta spread the message. Thank you so much, and we'll join each other again soon.