William Curb: Welcome to Hacking Your ADHD. I'm your host, William Curb, and I have ADHD. On this podcast, I dig into the tools, tactics, and best practices to help you work with your ADHD brain. This week we've got the return of my friend, Saman Kesh, an award-winning music video director in all-around creative force of nature, to talk about the wild and untamed internal landscape of ADHD productivity. Saman is known for his works with bands such as Kygo, Basement Jacks, and Placebo, and most recently his work directing Ed Sheeran's Ozzy Zom music video. If you haven't seen it, check it out it's real cool.
Today we get into the weeds of what makes a tool sticky, how to both lower hurdles and stakes when you're stuck, and the role of friction in derailing our systems. Saman also shares how he uses routines, gamification, and a lot of self-reparenting to manage the inevitable paralysis that comes with big projects, tiny tasks, and everything in between. This one's more of a chill conversation with friends about what works and what doesn't in their ADHD worlds. If you'd like to follow along on the show notes page, you can find that at hackingyouradhd.com/237. All right, keep on listening to find out how to build creativity and productivity into your ADHD world.
Saman Kesh: So you have an organization or a calendar board and all of the markings have been caked on and they're set off from 2024. So clearly that hasn't been looked at and probably neglected. It's behind the door outside of your current office. What would you like to change about what would you change so that that becomes a little more active in your life and not out of sight, out of mind?
William Curb: I could just move it right next to me here. Literally just have it right here.
Saman Kesh: That's what I thought it was. Yeah, actually.
William Curb: I could see it and it makes it one of the biggest things I find for these systems is removing the friction from using them. So the friction of using that one was that it's not right where I'm doing work. If I need to look at what I want to do next, I have to go over to that system and then look at it and make sure it's up to date.
But if I have something that's just like, oh, this is right here, I can just look right now. That's a lot easier. And it's funny because that you asked about, I'm like, oh, I didn't have it here before because there was like other stuff on the wall there now, but that got taken down. I'm like, oh, I could put that. I could move that now. It doesn't need to be where it is.
Saman Kesh: Yeah, that's pretty genius though that you like called it removing the friction. I think that it's a pretty like spot on like way to put it like for any because do you find that like you have to kind of retool something maybe for yourself either vocally or verbiage wise or something that just kind of remind you in a simple way because so many people have like organization rules, but they're like too many words, you know.
So it's interesting. It's like removing the friction. Is this tool great, but also accessible for me? So removing the friction sounds like you'd put it right to your left where it's like always like just you turning your head left. You have to look at kind of thing, right? Okay.
William Curb: That's like the removing the friction thing is something that I feel like is for so many things is that with executive dysfunction, I'm like, it's usually that hurdle of getting started is like the biggest issue. And so if I can just like make that hurdle way lower, you know, it's like, oh, this is just like an inch tall rather than I don't know how tall heralds are. That's my metaphor is falling apart.
Saman Kesh: You know, it's great, but a hurdle sounds intense. So it's okay to remove our Olympic definition from it. So if we're going...
William Curb: To hurdle into a molehill, I could just step over it.
Saman Kesh: So there's a terminology that I've been using. And again, like so much of my education like has been growing in the last just maybe five years, I would say like probably like eight years, like just before COVID net to now. But like, we talked about kind of lowering the stakes, right? So like, the hurdle is obviously that going from one place to the next, how big of a leap is that for our kinds of brains, right? Like taking baby steps and not trying to do too many things, but just doing one thing, which is wild because our instinct is to yeah, right, and carried all apart and do it all.
But like, there's also the stakes, right? The wall of awful, because it's a real thing in there, it creates paralysis and part of the procrastination is because maybe it's like, oh, it'll never get done. Or you're so in a hurry and behind of other things that you feel you don't have the time to stop and do this other thing. But sometimes the stakes just have to be lowered where it's like, cool, like, I'm getting so much done anyways. And I'm probably not able to see how much I'm getting done because you're just kind of always thinking about the things you could do better.
So it's kind of like the hurdle, but also the stakes like, think about how much you've gotten done, how many things on that board have you actually done without the board? And I'm sure you can be proud of a lot of those things, right? Yeah. So it's kind of like, you're surviving and you're still kind of figuring out, like, we'll both like, be like, walking with Canes and still being like, I found a new thing. It's definitely the right system, you know, lowering the stakes, I think, as well as the hurdle, I think is important, especially for I can be really hard on myself to the point where it's like, I can almost like, have my own little mini tantrums, you know, like in my head. So it is interesting, I had a whole whiteboard system that I utilized.
And I think removing the friction was interesting because I actually, it was during COVID, like, when I really went hard on it. And I was like, I put it on the wall, it was always near me. I like had a doodle of the day. So it would kind of stimulate my brain. And I had like a fixed doodle. And like, the longer my hair got, I would make my fro a little bit bigger. And then like, I had a cat, like around my shoulders, my cat.
And if my cat was grumpy that day, I'd make a grumpy face. It was almost like, I don't know what it is, but it's sort of like a kid's drawing where the outline was permanent. And then I just changed little things. So like, I found ways to kind of stimulate me. I made the lists like two words. But it was still wild how much it, you know, not only was it ugly, I don't really like whiteboards really, but like, it just didn't stick.
It was almost like the immediacy. And I regret it a little bit. But like, it's just, it's still not the right thing for me. But I did like getting up. And by getting up, right, we talked about this on our last episode, like the separation of just getting up, going to something and having to do something separates you from like the crazy myopia that we can have sometimes where you just lose track of food and living. So like, I guess removing the friction is interesting.
But I guess also, there's something about like, cooking in that breather, right? Like, what are like, I have reminders that I have every week. So if my white, my whiteboarder, sorry, calendar board that I neglect, but I still do it sometimes is I have like a reminder thing where every two hours I'm a reminder, and it just says it's just a poem that says count to five. And all that is is a reminder to just be like, breathe for fives for five breaths, and you can't do anything else.
That's it. So worst case, I just do that. But it always to a science causes me when I come back to reflect whether I've been stuck or not. It even helps me kind of just look at my reminders that I haven't done. I'm like, Oh, did I brush my teeth or did I do this or did I, you know, whatever, like all the little dumb, you know, dumb stuff, the tasky stuff that most people kind of habitually have developed. Like, I neglect that sometimes. And it's just interesting because I'll unlock my phone and I'll see them all. But it's like, I developed this muscle to go, that's not important, you know, I need to do this next task.
And it's so interesting, because it's like, Oh, how does that have friction? I could just make sure I check that off. But it's like, it is a really interesting balance, because even I just got a stand up desk, for example. And I haven't, it has a little alarm where it'll just go and it'll tell you, okay, you've been up for an hour, sit down. And I'm excited to utilize that to see if it helps.
I wish I could force it to be automatic, but that's probably dangerous. So I just got like a Herman Miller chair, I sold out and got one of those chairs. It's really interesting because it gets uncomfortable pretty fast. But it's discipline, the Herman Miller discipline is you can't sit there for eight hours, you have to get up. So it's like ergonomically not like lazy boy logic. It's, this is how you should sit until you need to get up. And so the Herman Miller helps me get up. But when I'm up, like, my, my soles of my feet will hurt before I sit down. So like the act of sitting down is almost mindfulness. So like, what do you think would be a good way for having some sort of habit with that board where it does sort of remove from just, because I can imagine you, I could just see you writing a huge list, you know, and then you're going TMI and then you will become paralyzed.
You'll hate that board every time you see it. Like what would be a way for kind of stillness? I know you say going for a walk, but something even quicker, like is it a drink of water?
William Curb: What I'm thinking to hear too is just this need to have reasons to use your tools to just beyond like, you need a reason to like come back to using them to create that stickiness because like they're not enough dopamine to just if the list is just there that itself is not enough dopamine. I like your little doodle thing. So I was like, oh, if I'm being like, oh, I'm going to make a doodle every day.
That's great. Or years and years ago, I was with an accountability group where we just would text each other are to do lists every morning or like our schedule for the day. And because I was going to do that other part, the texting the list made it so that I could just write it down really quick.
It didn't really matter how accurate it was. But going through that process of like, oh, okay, I have to just write this down. And then I can, as much as I follow it, I follow it as well as I can with having realized now years later being like, oh, I understand how to schedule so much better now with like, what I'm actually going to get done in a day and what's reasonable to do. But I'm thinking with the board is like, yeah, not having an overwhelming having one of the things I had done with it. It's not just a white board with tasks.
So it's like this big con bon idea with like stuff you're doing deferred tasks and stuff. And so right before I stopped using it, I got magnets so they can put on it. So I can move tasks around very easily.
Saman Kesh: Yeah, that's an interesting thing. Dopamine, it's like, so the question is removing the friction while cooking in some dopamine, you know, so it's like, oh, so for I put an example, a whiteboard near you that you can doodle on before you work on it or magnets that satisfyingly move around as you shift tasks.
So instead of like clicking the button, because that's the one thing I've noticed. Oomans, I don't know, is my term for neuro neurotypicals, even though that's obviously just like a temp word. But like, you know, the non ADD mind, it's like the dopamine hit is just like the barrier of entry for that is a little bit lower. And so I think like people and some people just don't need that dopamine hit of checking something off, they get it other in other ways, right?
So that it's not satisfying. And it's funny because Nicole, my partner has, I think she has an app called Todoist, and I used it once. I didn't, it's a little bit weird for me. It's like not for me. It's not like satisfying looking in an interface. But there's a sick feature when you hit that button, your the haptic feedback is like a little jingle.
It's not just it's like, and I'm like, whoa. So I was like, if I was a programmer, I would program like almost ADD, like you're excited to push the button to see what combination or guess what song that is that the vibration haptic is doing, you know, it's like, there's like a little bit of it's a reason like what they say like 80% of people have ADD play video games or do some kind of game, you know, like whether it's board games or Magic the Gathering or Warhammer. So it's like, the gamification, I think has kind of saved my life a lot of times, but it's really tough because it takes for me and I don't know how it is for you. But like, I have a hard time when I wake up, I feel like I have it's like a ticking time bomb.
And I think this is where the stakes are just high for me. It's probably anxiety and also just my dad, my dad, I get it from my dad, it's just our willpower is so strong that sometimes it's like, there's a moment that doesn't need the bulldozer, and then I'm bulldozing. And so it's like, I'm like, I can't stop to do this thing.
I can't, you know, whatever. So it's like, again, it's the Ferrari with Honda Civic brakes, that's kind of my analogy for myself. And so it's kind of also like creating maybe like a cushion platform or like something that temporarily, because it's really not like, you know, when people just say, just get organized, like, you remember as a kid hearing that, and you're just like, you look back and you're like, what are you doing?
What kind of advice is that you clearly don't understand my brain, right? But like, that is the worst thing we could even try to tell ourselves, which I'm sure we're all guilty of is worse critics. So it's like, where I think for me, I have a hard time just going like, Hey, man, the stakes are super low here. And the closest thing I have is sort of forcing myself to breathe. Or, you know, some people have like meditative, like thought practice, where they're kind of like, Oh, like, I have a higher self where, you know, I asked that a question, and then it's a real simple answer. And some people are, like you said, you know, going on a walk, like, I know a lot of people who literally, they're only sort of refuges, okay, get up, walk, you know, and that's it. And that's great. Like I go on hikes, and I'm like, wow, within 10 steps, I'm like, there's clarity, you know, it's like, not problems, not solved.
I don't necessarily feel better, but like it's not noisy as much, you know, or not as foggy. So I think that's kind of, I don't know if you struggle with that, where the procrastination is kind of fueled by, I don't have time to do that. Or if it's more just like out of sight, out of mind, and it's like completely forgotten.
William Curb: Yeah. There's both aspects where it's like, yeah, there is definitely the, I was thinking about this recently with like the need to ride motivation waves, where I feel like, Oh, I'm motivated now. And it feels like I'm never going to be motivated again. So I need to do this now, even though that's a weird black and white thinking piece of things where I'm like, well, I've been motivated many times in my life. And often motivation comes from starting, not from nowhere. So it's like, Oh, if I can like, try and get away from that idea of like, I need to ride these waves of motivation, like, no, I can do stuff without that drive. I can be like, this is again, like the lowering friction. When I start writing, I will start writing really inane stuff, like doing for an episode being like, Oh, what do I want this episode to be about?
And what do I want the tone to be? And let's fix some of this stuff in here and just get myself to physically do the action of writing enough so that it just kind of flows into like, well, okay, this is either the ideas. And then I'm like, okay, this is now pouring out of me rather than being stuck. And then when I do get stuck, you know, there are times where I'm like, I can't take a break because I need to get this done. I mean, I know from history forcing myself to do stuff now that never makes anything good.
Saman Kesh: I try to kind of think about it like through the creative, the sort of like creating something phase. But it's like, I know what you mean, though, like where, you know, you're saying, Oh, the motivation waves ride the motivation wave. That's another great zinger because you're totally right. It's funny because that's advice for like 99% of creative people in general. So it's not it's not just us, but it is interesting because you're like, Oh, well, I've been motivated plenty of times, right? But I know what you mean. There's there's a version of that motivation, where you're kind of also actually surprised, or you're kind of like, Oh, I'm getting kind of carried away.
But this is a good carried away. And maybe, like, you could see the positives of doing it. And like, for example, so I'm about to go on a road trip, I'm pretty burnt out. And when I say burnout, it's not the typical like exhaustion. It's like kind of the DSME definition of it where it's like, Okay, I'm getting weirdly existential.
Like, I don't think my ADD is able to like, play around, like I need to unleash it. And so I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna like go on a road trip or go into a cabin, I've been getting picking up DJing again, you know, I grew up DJing and my brother's DJ. And so like, I was like, Okay, okay, like this is great. Like it's, it's great practice mental discipline, because you're having to hear two songs at once.
And the audience, the listeners can only hear one, but you have to like beat mix the next song. And it's kind of it's kind of chaos, you could easily if you panic or ADD mode, you just like to train wreck, which is like the term for that, right? So I'm trying to kind of develop a distance. But when I was on a hike yesterday, then I'm only two days away from my road trip, I was suddenly like, I had this, I was listening to the telepathy tapes, which my partner is like obsessed with and was like, you should listen to this. And a lot of the stuff I believe. So it was really interesting to be like, Whoa, there's scientific data for telepathy, sick. And, you know, I learned that, you know, I'm on the spectrum, like, you know, a few years ago. So it was really interesting to, you know, talk about these kids who, you know, are autistic to the point where they can't speak.
And so, but they can like read minds, it's really intense. So I had an idea, not based off that, but just something it reminded me of. And I was like, Am I inspired?
Do I need to, as you say, ride this motivation wave, but I'm leaving. And I was like, but I don't want to change my road trip like that. I don't want to have to work. Like I want to just like watch movies and DJ and like go on hikes around the lake where I'm staying or something, right? Like, so I was kind of like fighting it, but I was like, okay. And like, so I find in those situations, like listening to that question with respect. So should I ride this motivation wave?
Usually the answer is yes. But what what the question mark is is how like, I'm trying to not use an inappropriate term. How like, deep do I want to go into those waters? Right? Do I want to go like up to the neck? Do I want to go up to the hips? Or do I just need to take that first step up to my shins? Right. And so like for me, it was like, like thinking about it more. And actually just calling like creative friends and saying, I got this random idea, talk me out of this.
Is this interesting? And because like, and then eventually I was like, Oh, the reality is, is the change that I want to make is actually pretty small. So I either just make the change, just sit and make the change. And it's just surgical, like I wouldn't have to, it's for a script. I don't have to blow the script up.
But because Khan is around the corner, my producers are talking with investors at the moment, is this enough of an idea change that I should put it in now before people drop like millions of dollars? But it's like, or is it not that big of a deal? And so like, just being curious, I think it's stimulating enough that you're not going to lose the wave. But it does help the, because you could create another wall of awful, a lot of people like, how many times have you had inspiration?
And you know, you've kind of negatively judged it or said, Oh, here's another thing I'm never going to get done. You know, so it's like, again, when I was on, when I'm on a hike, sometimes there's a lot of clarity. So it's like, even though I still have conflict, there's a little bit of like, I wouldn't say zenness, it's just respect for yourself and your thoughts and being apparent to them.
And so I get what you're saying. I think that there are like, it's usually right when you think I should ride this motivation wave. I think where it can be problematic is the jump to conclusion. It's the, it's the jump to, okay, that's what I got to do. And it's like, Oh, wait, let's think what are the steps to get there? You know, and I think that that's, so yeah, I would say I'm going to add that to our list. We've got removing the friction. And then it's also like ride the motivation waves.
And what I like about that too, is that's very ADD as well, right? Because it's not about forcing the task. It's about understanding that it's like, well, I wrote this task for tomorrow at five, I have this thing that I wanted to do. I have some gaming time, but maybe I should switch gears now. Oh, but wait, I only have an hour and a half left.
Am I going to get that done in an hour and a half? Well, maybe just start it. And then it's going to be like watching a TV show, you're going to be excited to pick it up. Like, like, for example, I'm playing Metroid Prime, and I'm in like a really weird part of the game where there's a lot of backtracking in the game. And sometimes I'm like, Oh, this is such like 2002 design, like where there's no fast travel and shit, you know? And so I'm like, okay, so I caught, I designed it where I got to a boss, and then the boss shows up, I pause, I, you know, switch to sleep mode so that I know when I'm going to turn it on.
So I'm like excited to get there again. So it's like kind of hacking, finding a way to like put a bookmark on the motivation wave. I think that's a good way to do it. Like, you know, how do you bookmark that motivation wave, you know?
William Curb: Yeah. Well, and also like, sometimes we do need to like put the brakes on and be like, yeah, how good of a idea is this? You know, especially because there's times where I'm like, you know, I'm driving or, you know, trying to go to bed. And I like, I have these ideas and I'm like, oh, I should do this kind of thing. And I'm like, you know, and then, you know, you know, a couple hours later, I'm like, actually, it was not a good idea.
I'm glad I didn't stop to do that. Also the classic of redesigning your life while trying to go to bed, being like, oh, I'm going to do these habits. I'm going to do these things. Like that's not real. Like there's times where we like, we feel like we have the motivation to do something, but it's not realistic motivation. It's this like idealized if everything was perfect and I didn't actually have ADHD.
Saman Kesh: Yeah, yeah. But I think that don't you think that thought process, well, first of all, you're totally right, especially if any of us are on stimulants, that you get some people kind of get that weird high, you know, like, that's kind of why I switched to vibe ants, because I felt like my delusional ADD-ness, the takeover the world was higher with Adderall because the up comes up really fast, which is why some people like it because it wears off in the day. But I just got grumpy. I was like too crazy in the beginning, too wild, and then too at the end. So vibe ants kind of kept it going.
So that is definitely a real phenomenon. But I do think don't you feel it's a little not dangerous, but devil's advocate, do you think it could be problematic to say, oh, in a perfect world, if I didn't have ADHD, because I do think that that could also be used as another way to talk yourself out a desire that really there's something there to explore. What do you think?
William Curb: Yeah, I think there's, yeah, a couple ways to look at that too is like, yeah, okay, is using that to be like, try to come back to it non-judgmentally, like, okay, I do like this idea of how I could do this. How can I apply this with my actual reality? I think one of the things I see like people like really jumping into exercise and they're like, I'm gonna do this at 5am every morning, and then not thinking about how that sleep loss is gonna like hit them. We can still work out. But how can we fit this into our schedule where we're gonna do this consistently and do this where it's something that it's gonna last? How are we going to make this last? How are we gonna make this a sticky habit?
Saman Kesh: You're on a roll today with these zingers. I love it. I feel like a lot of times I got zingers with people, but whenever I talk to you, I'm always humbled by the zingers. I'm like, sick, like I love a good zinger brain, bro. So yeah, I guess, yeah, I didn't think of it that way. I think you were being pretty neutral. I think like my default, I have, there's so much self judgment that I go through. Not saying that you don't, I think, but it was, there was a little bit of projection when I think, and maybe other people feel this too, when you say kind of, I, you know, like, how could I do this in reality? You know, like, oh, that's great that I like this, but it's like, in a perfect world, if I didn't have an HD, to me, I kind of took that as like, oh, I can't do it.
But for you, you were, you were actually taking it as a constructive question mark to, to break down. And you know, like, I'm very fortunate, I have an assistant, and I can delegate tasks. But what I find is what's really fun about having an assistant is that because it's another brain, like, you realize that when you just kind of willy-nilly give a task, and then it's done, not the way you like it, or not the way you expected, it's like, okay, the only way to change that is to slow down, think about what my ask is. And then in that process, it's almost like being mindful of the task or of that whimsical motivation train, you just kind of are like, boom. So it's like, you kind of get better at tasking another person.
And, and then you all, it comes back to tasking yourself. So like, when you write the note, it's a lot simpler. So I think like, I'm very fortunate that I have that a lot of people, they don't have that. And so they're like, wait, like, for example, you know, you've heard that phenomenon, they call like reclaiming the night or reclaiming your life.
I don't know. But it's basically like a debt, like a dad and a mom complex where like, you're, everyone's asleep. And instead of actually going, okay, I should be in bed at midnight, you just grind through the night until you just fall asleep, right? So that the whole like, wake up at 5am, that's not realistic if you're not doing the like, okay, how do I carve everything I need to do now?
How do I cut out things that I don't need to do to ensure my happiness and get my ADD video gaming in or whatever, right? So it is interesting to kind of figure out like, yeah, the reality, what can you get done? But also, I think it's also just like, not only is it a good idea, it's also like, yeah, I think mapping out. And I don't know if you're somebody where you like to talk out your, your, your processes vocally, like I'm a verbal processor. So like, I sometimes just like pitching my ideas to people and it's not even a creative idea, it could just be like, so I'm thinking of doing this and doing this and doing this and even just me saying it out loud and hearing someone, seeing someone's face, they could like not even a moat actually.
And I kind of go, ooh, like, that's not that great. Or if someone asks a question, I go, oh, you're right, I didn't think about that, that that's like a three day process, not like a one day, okay, well then, okay, what if we divide and conquer or something like that, right? Like, so I think just almost being creative about that creative thing that you want to do, or creative, creative being creative about the process of how you would do it. Like I'm sure even starting this podcast, like, I'm sure part of you were just went knee deep, you know, full on and you're like, whoa, but I'm sure a part of you also plan some stuff out and then you just got better at it. And then you can remind yourself, oh, you remember that one time with that without raising the stakes of and feeling like that exact thing is going to happen again.
Oh no, because then paralysis will strike, you know, some of what made your makes your podcast amazing is a little bit of that bucket attitude, right? So it's really weird. Again, it's like kind of respecting the chaos, you know, like Rumi is this like famous Persian poet and he says like, invite your demons in for some tea, you know what I mean? Like if and when they're at the door, like, and I think that is an interesting sort of idea because it's like without the the terminology of demon because that scares people sometimes it's like, it's really just like all the voices in your head that you are scared of or that cause you problems or that you feel are problems.
It's not as black and white. A lot of times they only seem like problems because you're you're nervous about them or you're scared of them or something didn't work out the last time you listen to them or something like that, right? So it's like, you kind of have to just have a conversation about it. And I think like, yeah, the writing the motivation way is something that I'm either great at or I fall out of love not fall out of love with I just sort of fall out of touch with like a friend that you just you just somehow feel like you have all the time in the world to listen to that and then you don't do it.
So I think that's an interesting approach. Another thing too that I thought of was like input and output is another thought because technically ADHD is a learning disability, right? Like it's been classified that way kind of for a long time. But like, I think now in school they actually account for it.
But like, or a lot of schools, but like, I think in our day, they definitely didn't, you know, they were just sort of like, you're you're you're the wild child go sit in the corner or whatever sad things they probably did to sensitive ADHD years. But like, for me, I think learning that is my biggest wall of awful. If there is a barrier of entry, that is friction for me. But it is some friction of the mind. It is a not a friction that's not real.
It's real to me, but it's not reality, right? So because of my fear, like, I suck at math, like math is just such a not part of the way my brain wants to think. And the more structured something is, like math or even science, some science is good when it's like logic science, if it's chemistry or like mathy science, nope, over. But like, like the history, for example, I'm good at parts of English, I'm good at essay writing, because I'm just awesome at bullshitting, you know, I tell stories. So that stuff I was always good at.
And I could stimulate myself in the poetry of it all. But like, the procedural stuff, like listening to a podcast, like, again, like attitude, the ADHD podcast, it's just so bizarre, because unless there's a speaker that's arresting, sometimes those talks, I'm just like, guys, like, I don't, is this for like teachers that need to know what ADHD is? Because this is definitely not for ADHD years. Like I, and I know I've talked so much about it on our podcast, and they probably are like, we're never inviting you to this podcast. But like, I just have such a problem, like, because I'm like, art, like, a lot of us have input problems, unless it's entertainment, we just are our wall of awful is like, we're dumb, and we will not be able to absorb this.
What's the point? And it's gotten so bad for me that I have a hard time like watching new movies. And some of that, some of that's a little bit of like, unless it's like my friends and a lot of my friends and peers are making movies. So that's, that's fun and motivating, because I'm like, Oh, I know them. And it's, you feel like you're hanging out with them. But like, when you just, there's a critical success film, it's like, I have to have friends invite me to a movie.
And like, otherwise, I wouldn't go see it, you know, and it's not that I'm not inspired by movies. I think it's this input problem where I have so much desire to output. Sometimes that's accurate, I believe in artists input and output a lot of like Kubrick was an inputter for like five years before he was like, okay, I'm going to make this next movie. But like, there are times where it's kind of a paralysis for me. So I guess like, you know, are there times where a task is so daunting? And I don't know if this is something you have, you have an issue with, but like, wanting to learn something, how do you motivate yourself, especially with, you know, knowing that you could kind of suddenly swiss cheese and fall through the hole and go, wait, what was all that about? I just wasted 15 minutes just doing something, but I wasn't learning it. Like, do you ever get paralyzed from that? And, you know, how would you get out of it in those moments where
William Curb: you had your the answer right there and what you were saying earlier, just have accountability with other people. Like that's one of the biggest tricks. Like, oh, I don't have it myself. But you know, like, oh, I have friends invite me to movies and I go and see these things. And you know, as director, you need to see to be, if I have something I really need to do, I need to have some sort of accountability behind it. I'm now working with like a producer and assistant kind of person. And it's great because he'll just be like, hey, how are you doing on this one thing?
And I'll be like, haven't started at all, but I will get on that, you know, kind of thing, because the amount of extra stuff that I've started with the podcast since he's come on has been so much higher just because I have that regular reminder of I'm like, hey, this was something I told him when we he came on was like, hey, I'm going to need reminders about these things. We don't need to like, they don't necessarily need to be urgently done. They just need to remain in our consciousness, you know, there is the the important but not urgent tasks, you know, like getting the newsletter started. That was like something where it's like, oh, yeah, I need to have it'd be great to start that, but it's not urgent.
There's no if I don't ever do it, it doesn't happen. But getting it started has been great and something that has been, I find it rewarding because I get to like, do other writing that I wouldn't normally do for the podcast. cast. Is that creative writing or essays or what? Yeah, more essay things.
It's kind of like the monologues, but shorter and not necessarily ideas that are strictly ADHD kind of things. Just being like, oh, yesterday I'm just working on this quick reply to an idea of the environmental impact of AI stuff, where I'm like, this is a really interesting idea, but it's often presented through this lens of like, hey, you know, an AI search query uses one bottle of water and powers a 6L EDLite bulbs for an hour. And I'm like, those aren't using it some measurement. I don't know what that means. I can't quantify that. How does that compare to me like, forgetting to moving my stuff from the washer and having to wash my stuff twice?
Like that's an ADHD thing I do where I'm like, oh, I have to run the washer twice. I used a lot of extra power for that. How does that compare to this? What is, and I'm just like, I would like to have a better understanding of like, what my actual impact is here rather than saying like, having boogeyman numbers.
Saman Kesh: boogeyman numbers. That's a good one. Yeah. The laundry thing I could test to that. Like, I have, we have a laundry room that's separate. So like, it's a little bit out of sight out of mind. So it is fascinating. If I don't set a timer, you get, you get that stinky stanky ass, you know, wash clothes, not going in the dryer.
William Curb: So yeah, you would have put like something else and you're like, Oh, no. Yeah.
Saman Kesh: Oh, no. Exactly. Exactly. And then it's, and also like, you know, got to use more like detergent and stuff. And it's just like, you know, especially if you don't use like the eco-y ones, you're sort of like, you know, but like it's, it's definitely like, I was thinking about it. And you know, there's this philosophy of inspiration is not, you don't generate your own inspiration. Like, yes, the muse that yeah, you're visited by inspiration. And I'm a big believer of that with ADHD, especially like, I think some, some people, I don't think they can generate it, but they can kind of attract it or magnetize it. And maybe, maybe everybody can do that.
I don't know. Maybe it's just a sensitivity thing. But I think with ADHD, I think we do have our sensitivity of being distracted is a byproduct of sort of feeling forced to do something. I actually don't think in the wild, we would have ADD.
I think, like in the wild, there's enough stimulation where you would just be like, this is my task, I'm hungry, I'm going to go kill this, this animal or forage or just, you know, run around and I'm getting exercise, but really you're trying to just get dopamine or something and you don't know it. Like they're so like, I do think though that we can catch inspiration. And I do think a lot of times, sadly, the inspiration comes at weirdly in opportune time, especially if like, you're being a dad and you're like, Oh, I got to help my kid do his homework or I'm trying to support them playing two player Super Smash Bros or something. I don't know, you know, like whatever, like those kinds of things. It's like, I do, I do wonder if there's a way to kind of, like while you were talking kind of like hacking yourself with a reward, you know, like, like, I have this thing, I have this belief where like, I feel a lot of people with ADHD, especially with like maybe confidence issues or self-esteem issues, shame issues, etc, etc.
I feel like I have to constantly kind of re-parent myself, you know, like kind of things not like my parents didn't do it. It's just there wasn't kind of curiosity, I think. It wasn't so complex of a thing back then, I think it was kind of just like, we don't really ask questions as to like, why you have this thing, you're just hyper and it's just, it's lasting now into your adulthood or something, right? So like, but for me, it's like, Oh, like, I have a thing where this is really weird, but it's like, I have a thing where like, I'm like, okay, if I do this thing, I get to do this other thing. And it's just really simple. And some people have issues with that kind of rewarding system, like, oh, you should be able to want to do it.
And I'm like, well, guys, like, we want to do it. But when you have ADHD, like you have like emotional amnesia. So like, I want to watch a lot of movies, new movies, I want to go to this social function and schmooze, even though I'm like, shit, I could spend all this time like catching up on a game that really brings me joy, right? Like reward yourself then, go checkbox, go one hour and half the time you end up enjoying and you stay the whole four hours to the social function, right?
But like half the time you go, hell yeah, dude, you went and did it, you know? And so it's like, whether it's input or whatever, these things that sort of bring you dread or because we can't we can't forget that I think a lot of ADHD is a reaction to like intense sensitivity or anxiety or overstimulation, right? So like, I think like some people some people that ADHD are a little bit more attuned to anxiety or even they thought they had anxiety before they were learned they had ADHD. So like, to me, I have a lot of I think my my spectrum stuff comes into play with social my social dysfunction and being overstimulated. And also just like the not burden but the energy it takes to read cues and stuff like it can take me out of being me. And so sometimes I feel nervous because I'm like, oh, I'm an other I'm going to this thing with non others but that's not really true.
But that's the that's our that's what's real in our brain. So I think giving yourself a reward, not even trying to fully even change your perspective like you can but like you don't need to solve your perspective change right there. Like what makes people with ADHD so awesome sometimes, just give yourself a bandaid and go do the thing and then you can kind of solve it as you go, right?
Don't make the hurdle so big. And so I think that can be a way to help like for example, I'm going on this road trip. I kept trying to figure out what I need to do on this road trip.
And then I just all I needed to figure out is I need to book an Airbnb or a bunch of them. And I was like, okay, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to just I'm taking a car. I have a big enough trunk. I'm going to just take my speakers, my DJ mixer.
I'm going to take no games because I know that I don't want any of that. I'm going to bring some of my meal plan macro plates in case I want to do that. But I'm also going to go and buy some steaks like I'm going to spend just a little bit extra dough to let my ad and the thing that also makes us genius like show up when it shows up the clarity will happen there. So it's like being kind of patient and getting to the next step, I think is important.
But like, I think in order to do that, I think we're children a little bit, right? I mean, that part of the executive function is comparable to like whatever ace we were most traumatized. I don't know, but so like, I always say my executive functions definitely like a somewhere between 10 and 12.
I think some people are a lot more and like the seven, eight range. So it's on the deck. It's sends on that's a great way to put it.
It does depend on the day. But I think for me, there is a little bit of like, like for example, in Nicole yesterday, my partner, I, I wanted to eat pizza outside and get some sun, get some vitamin, vitamin sun. And then I was like, but I have to do some social media. And then I was like, Oh, I can't read the screen. And I got paralyzed by, okay, I want to get this done though.
And eating my pizza will give me dopamine. And I got a little too mathy. And the screen door was open. And Nicole was like, okay, in or out, you know, in or out.
And I was just like, it was weird because I'm like, that is so funny. Like she had to talk to me like a child for me to actually like absorb that choice versus you're letting the stuff in or you're letting the AC out or whatever. It's just in or out. I didn't need all the other stuff. I understood that. So it's like, but you got to do that for yourself. You know, and I think that's, that's hard as, as we sort of cope with, you know, the neurotypical structure of the of society, you know, yeah.
William Curb: So I just forgot to be of yesterday. I'd like walked, I was like in my garage, getting something. And then I was like, Oh, I want to grab something from the kitchen. And I walked and I just like stood in the front hallway for three or four minutes, just like, Oh, no, there was a, I'm not hungry.
It's not food. I need to leave. What am I doing? There was something I wanted. And it just, I couldn't.
And I was like, Oh, I wanted to get an ice pack to put in the car so I could ice my neck on the way to while I drive to Costco. And I'm like, but it just like loss of thought. I just stood there. I couldn't get myself to do anything.
Saman Kesh: It's the paralysis. It's almost like the too many thinking shut down. That's why I kind of find like, I don't know, I go through my depression is pretty, I bounce back pretty quickly, like quickly, meaning like it could just be a night of sleep or as quick as like within an hour, you know. And when I need depression, it's like not being negative. And then, you know, perspective switching like straight up like, whoa. And that's depression is really like, if you think of like the old Latin sort of logic of it, it just, it kind of means tired, you know, like low energy.
So that is true. Like a depression, I believe, is connected to anxiety. I think you get so anxious that you shut down. So I think some paralysis comes from the exhaustion of fighting the, the noise, you know, and being a little nervous. So like, yeah, that feeling of wait, I need to be going. I came in here. I had a really logical and smart thing that I was going to do, or that I need to do before going.
And now I'm stuck. And so yeah, it's so critical in those moments to not judge and maybe even find a way to laugh at yourself. Like I put deodorant in the fridge the other day. And I just remember being like, where was it? Where did I put it? And I'm like, what's the weirdest place I could put it?
And I was like, oven? No, I that's dangerous. I know I wouldn't do that. That's the stimulation of the danger I would never have done. And then I opened the fridge and I was like, whoa, I put it next to baking soda. I'm like, that's an interesting logic. You know, but it was like, I laughed about it, right?
So I think it's so important. I think the paralysis can actually be diffused by kind of making a joke out of it or being funny. And it's so interesting because I have a sense, a good sense of humor, but I don't use it on myself a lot. And I think that that's, you know, that that's kind of my thing a little bit. But it is interesting. Do you, you've got, you solved your problem though. You got the ice pack and you made the day nice, dude. You you heroed yourself.
William Curb: Yeah, it's just eventually this is like, well, eventually I like I turned my head up like, oh my neck. Oh, that's why I want to.
Saman Kesh: It was you listened to your body on an accident. You listened to your body. Yeah, I have that thing too. If I'm injured, it is crazy. My mental health, if I just tell myself, you're going to be forced to be in your body more because of this pain.
So at least there's that, but it does train your brain. Like I have, I really do believe like people with ADHD do hit their prime, like when they're in their fifties, because it's like, you have to slow down more. First of all, you have enough pain where you're constantly having to check yourself. But that's what we want as ADHD people is like, we are so body, you know, we are so stuff is happening viscerally. Like even if you get like almost a fact, if you go to a massage place, this like, let's say you in a peer who doesn't have ADD, you guys get a massage at the same time, exact same massage, like on a scientific level, just a copy massage the next week you go, I promise you, you have like double the tension, you know, and not just because of like, let's just erase the logic of your body types like, like a twin, you know, but without the ADHD, like you, you will hold more tension.
Like that is how somatically intense we are as creatures. So it is interesting that your neck spoke to you more than anything else, any, any problem solving trick you have, you know, so okay. So right now I've got four things, four zingers that we've said, removing the friction while cooking in some dopamine. So that's like a whiteboard near you that you can doodle on before working on it magnets that satisfyingly move around as you shift tasks, ride the motivation wave. So that's that moment where you get kind of inspired, but like, you're kind of like, wait, is this just ADD happening?
Is this the right time? And so I think I wrote writing the motivation ride the motivation wave by being curious about it. So like asking it questions, not judging it, not stopping it, not like, just flat out delaying it, like right your side, do this thing where I write myself a text, or I write like something in a way that will annoy me later or like any problem at like, like an email that like, and I schedule it for eight AM, you know, so it's like the first thing in my inbox, something like that. Those are really important for us because that's like, that is our true genius when those moments come we're being visited, I believe. So I think writing the motivation wave and having, you know, just finding a way to, what would you say, how to bookmark that motivation away?
William Curb: Yeah, either either writing it or yeah, seeing if it's, you know, like, I mean, like, is this what I want to do? Or is this, is this a procrastination wave instead?
Saman Kesh: Yes, exactly. And on top of that, like, let's say that answer cannot happen in that moment, it's too deep of an answer. Well, then you don't be scared, bookmark it. How do you bookmark that question mark so that it's like stimulating when you come back and you're excited by it or whatever. Like for me, I kind of talk about it through my day to people. And then sometimes I get bored, or I go, that's kind of a bad idea. Or, Saman, that's a great idea, not for this or at this stage yet, you know, using accountability of others to hack some paralysis of some sort.
So that is fantastic. I think I found a lot of my friends who have ADHD have children, for example, even though they're like, Oh my God, it is crazy. It's like you are brute forced into time management. And you know, it's like, it's never the same probably as somebody who, you know, time management skills are higher.
There's a lot of other amazing, I think, abilities to have accountability or reminders of other people. Like for me, my partner, we're both in film. So like, if there is some sort of event to go and schmooze at, like, I feel like almost a tiny bit of guilt. But I think like, I've learned that there's a type of guilt where I can just kind of talk it out with her and say, Oh, maybe I should go with you too. You know what I mean? Or, Oh, I feel bad. And then she'll give me either an out by saying, Oh, it's actually kind of all girls thing.
I go, Oh, great, cool. You know, but like, I'm proud of myself that I explored it. But I think the accountability of others, like I have a friend, Dia, who invites me to the Alamo draft house.
And, you know, I wouldn't have watched Sinners, if not, you know, I wouldn't have watched, you know, like Oppenheimer, I think, if not, but it's like, I enjoyed loved watching those movies. And they're helpful. So like, there are interesting things with that, like using, it's almost like being empathetic, like getting out of your own head, thinking of another person and then realizing, wow, harmony, that's right. You know, I wrote this earlier, and maybe you can help me reformulate the Zinger.
It's the only one that you didn't provide a Zinger. So, but I said, hack yourself by rewarding yourself, like to do something that maybe you don't want to do, or that you're afraid of, because, you know, I think everyone has their own relationship to like their paralysis. Because some people don't even see it as paralysis. Like, I think it's supposed to be clear, like sometimes people don't actually shut down.
They just are so noisy. And then they're the paralysis is they're not seeing that because they're so busy here, that they don't know they're actually paralyzed. But when we say paralyzed, it means unable to do a task that maybe we set out to do, or that we think we need to do, or that we were in the middle of whatever. So that's what we mean by if you're paralyzed, like, how can you hack yourself? Or if you're just really dreading something.
There's a meme that I saw the other day where it is funny to feel seen by this. But like, I have a thing where when I have a meeting, like a general meeting with a studio exec or producer, if it's at 3pm, it is so hard for me to do anything prior to that. Because I have this weird nervousness, not like it's not even logical.
It's not, am I going to get there on time or any of that? That might be buried in me, but it's just, I can't function freely. Like, I could never write a script.
I could never be, because where script writing is so pure and spiritual for me. So it's like, I just need the whole day to be left alone when I want to write. So it is very limiting. But if you can hack yourself, reward yourself by doing a certain task, even if you're like, oh, no, like, I don't want to do this, or I want to flake out or whatever, I think that is really helpful. So yeah, it's like an example. Maybe you can give an example, but my hack sometimes is like, mine is probably not super healthy. But I do have this thing where sometimes I'm like, oh, I got a P, but like, it's not like dangerous levels, but it is a kind of like, it's like a kind of, hey, man, you know, you should probably go P. And then I go, all right, I'm going to just finish this paragraph, and then I'm going to go P, you know, and then it's that.
But it could be even something, let's get something a little more less like biological, like maybe, okay, shit, I only have an hour to game that I carved out. But I just realized that the switch dock is like, because I took it to a friend's house is all messy. And I know that I want the house to be clean before Nicole comes home.
So and I want it to be clean because it's stressing me out. And then I get paralyzed and I go, why don't you just do a bandaid version of it and then just put something there to signal yourself. And then you actually can do it. And then you're like, wow, I progressed, even if I only took a half step, I took a step. And then my reward is getting me to play the thing. So it's like kind of, you know, being re-parenting. But those are my examples. Do you have an example of kind of giving yourself a reward?
William Curb: Yeah, well, I mean, not just a reward, but also like just like scaffolding my day so that there's like, okay, if I didn't, you know, like if it's three o'clock, I'm like, oh, I have this stuff to work. And I'm like, well, I have to finish this by the time I have to walk over the bus stop to get my kids. That one's more of it like a stick where like, oh, I'm gonna have to deal with the fact that I didn't get this done and it's gonna snowball to something else. But which I guess is the same thing with like wait, having to pee where it's like, oh yeah, I'm gonna get to go pee. So it's gonna got the stick going. I do the same thing too. Where I'm like, I'm not gonna get up to pee until this is done. Because yeah, yeah.
Saman Kesh: And it's great because you because you're connected to your body, I think in that moment, you are, you are like, okay, just get it done. And not in that way that maybe other people like that's the problem I have with like sort of neurotypical kind of definition. It's like, we kind of run by our own rules of words and we have our own emotional attachment to them. At least I believe that I think like, so when we say just get it done, I have to always remind myself, you're gonna get it done.
Awesome. Is it exactly what you want in the future? No, but in the future, it will turn into that.
Right. So the get it done is you're gonna do a good job when you get it done. What, you know, so that's all that means really when, when, when at least when I say it, but I feel I've heard a lot of other people say kind of just get it done.
But when someone else tells me that doesn't have a hg, they're like, just get it done, dude. I go, you know what I mean? So it's like, but oh, but for me, it's just get it done like, yeah, so I can go pee. And what's amazing when you go do that is like, you're so you're actually like more refreshed and you feel better and like, you know, that gives you you also do get dope me when you pee. You also get dope mean when you take a dump too.
That has been proven for sure. A lot of my good ideas are going through the relieving of myself. So I enjoy that. But let's talk about your one yours is kind of feels a little bit like I get to do this, right? Like, oh no, if I don't do this thing, I'm going to have to deal with this at a very inopportune time.
Yeah. So it's so I guess the reward is that thing that I either want to do, I get to do that with freedom and ease. If I get this thing done, okay, that's a that's a good, that's a very like I can tell your parent the fact that you think that way. Like it's just so it's so like, you know, do you want to do this?
Are you do you really want to have to do this while you're at soccer practice? No, that's not possible. I can't. Okay. You know, like kind of talking yourself like a kid, it's that's pretty good.
William Curb: And sometimes like just separating my ADHD out for myself and treating it kind of like a toddler. Because I'm like, Oh, it's it just wants to do whatever the fuck it wants to do. And we can't always do that. Sometimes we have to be like, okay, let's treat my ADHD like a little kid and talk it through getting what I want to get done can be great for being like, Oh, I'm just looking at what its motivation is. And it wants to do this fun thing and get this and being like, and also being like, yeah, and I can't just ignore it either. If I just pretend like it doesn't exist, that's going to cause problems too.
Saman Kesh: Yeah, well, that's I think that's part of the procrastination, maybe part of the procrastination wave, or it is like wall of awful motivated, right? I think that the wall of awful is interesting because the more I think about it, the more I realize there's a lot of people with ADHD who don't even understand the wall of awful because it's so ingrained. So I think it's about like taking it out of the sludge so that you can kind of see that. And that's also helpful.
You don't have to solve it again in that moment. But I think yeah, like treating it, you know, treating treating yourself like a toddler is a great way to put it. And I think that does connect to the bookmarking it, like write it down, pause it, come back to it, or how can you set a reminder for yourself so that it stimulates you and you're not like, Oh, I'm bored of that now. You know what I mean? Like respect your idea by not dismissing it. That is a huge thing that I have a hard time doing is I go, Oh, that's just another good idea.
But it's because I'm traumatized. I did I used to have like a little notebook when I was in pre film school and into film school, I had it in my back pocket, just a little need that I'd flip out. And I had way too many ideas. And but the thing was that it wasn't too many. I just didn't have confidence that I would ever remember that. Yeah, that I'd ever remember them. And that was like a huge problem for me.
William Curb: I feel like some people can get to that point where it can be quite mean to ourselves.
Saman Kesh: And I think that comes from like the past as well, like how maybe we were talked to as a child or when we upset our parents who by the way, that there's a good chance that that parent had ADHD as well. You know, so like they they can see themselves like my dad treated me sometimes like that where he was really not overbearing at all. Like I would say just a little bit would jump to an intense disappointment or reaction in me because he saw himself in me. And so now that I'm older, I'm realizing I'm I can treat my dad that way too.
Sometimes I could be really disappointed when I'm like, you know what, like, I should be very grateful. Like I have all these tools. I'm on I have medication that helps me out. Like my dad, you know, doesn't go to therapy or anything like that. And he's just like, man, I've lived 65 years with ADHD, not knowing that I had it.
Like, I'm just going to keep going. And you know, respect to that. But it's like, it does come with these weird things where you walk into his home, you're like, whoa, no wonder you lose everything. You know, that kind of thing. So I think that treat your treat yourself the way, you know, you would treat your own kid or something like that, you know, something something that just adds, you know, hopefully you treat your kid well, you know.
William Curb: Yeah, this is one of those things like, yes, with compassion, be nice to yourself, be nice to your kids.
Saman Kesh: Again, you remember the last time we chatted, I talked about kind of doing, I kind of went through like, Academy Therapy experience. So something that I experienced during that was, I was able to kind of solve not like mathematical problems, but like some of my life problems in this really out of order way.
And it was really beautiful how kind of helixed it was, you know, it was really just, whoa, and then it would just come together. And you know, you know, when we talk as ADD, it's like, we don't, we don't necessarily like even this 60 minute podcast that's now turned longer than that. Like it's, we don't really think about time in the way other people do. In fact, I think we're kind of almost like the movie arrival, we're kind of just out of order.
It's a little timeless. And but we end up do finishing the circle. It's just we sort of like go out of order and kind of hang out and these other things, but it makes the end result stronger.
And so something I was thinking was that like, and I don't know if you maybe you've already have this, because I think you have a pretty seems like you have a pretty elaborate way of organizing the tasks you need to do and the time sensitive tasks. If you can find a way like, I have a thing where I need to water my plants within this week before I go, because I'm going to be gone for a couple of weeks. And I love my plants and they bring me bring me peace and comfort. So I'm like, okay, I need to water them. But like what's interesting is there are days where I go, okay, I've done all the like, I need to do tasks. So instead of going, oh, but I still got to do this.
I'm like, but do I really need to do that? Can I I'm feeling motivated to treat myself by watering my plants as my last task, it's still a task I have to get done. So almost like cooking ADHD friendly tasks, like making a list of like, kind of get it done randomly, but not like, just throw it willy nilly, like use it maybe as a reward. Do you not want to do this other task that you need to do? But like, you kind of don't need to do it today, you could do it tomorrow.
And why don't you just take this other task that you thought you were going to do in this day to this day and treat yourself that way. Or like, for example, like one time I was like needing to finish something. And that I use that as a reward, I use the I can just take the plant thing from tomorrow and put it to today. So I'm still getting that I'm accomplishing things, something I do need to get done as a responsible human being. But so I think like, respecting your ADHD, like we, we can't bury it.
And I don't think of it like it's, oh, a problem or a deficiency. It's like, we need to reward that part of ourselves. That is a part where, you know, it keeps us creative. Like it keeps gives us our willpower. It gives us insight. It gives us our ability to have zingers, you know, those kinds of things.
William Curb: So so changing it from treating your ADHD like a toddler to you're climbing in a mountain with your ADHD, you're tied together with a rope that you can't separate yourself from, it wants to go one way.
And you got to convince it to go, you either go with it and just do whatever it wants, or you find a way to work with your ADHD to get to where you want to go.
Saman Kesh: Okay, exactly. So like, if I were to put that into like a, like a task example or something like that, it would be kind of like
William Curb: listening to music while doing the dishes. Yeah, exactly. It was something where you're you're making the boring stuff more interesting.
Saman Kesh: You're giving exactly picking a funner task that you can choose to like, if you're not feeling it or stimulated picking that task. Okay.
William Curb: Yeah, or like I have this, I haven't really been using this, but I have this little notebook here that it has like a little to do list. And then it only has six spots. And you have a six sided die, you can roll which tasks you're going to do. And then you roll again and it shows you how long you're going to do the task for.
Saman Kesh: Wow, that's a great way to get. What is that? Can you tell me that?
William Curb: This is from Gladden. It's called paper apps. And so it's like a little list they have G L A D D E N. Okay. And then that's the product? Or the product is called paper apps. I found it because I have like a little dungeon crawler that you can do with just rolling dice and using your pencil.
Saman Kesh: Oh, that's a dork. Yeah, I love it. Yeah. I love like the gamification. And I got a friend a little jokie eight ball and she uses it all the time. And I'm like, Whoa, like, it was kind of a joke, but because she gets paralyzed, but I was also like, she like loves using it and stuff because it's always positive to it's never negative, the nose are even negative. So that's pretty cool.
Well, okay, so we're all riding this wave together. And it's fun to, it's fun to kind of just see like keep tabs on each other and see what works. But I'm going to definitely try out this journal thing that you have as well. And then yeah, let me know how the whiteboard calendar thing goes.
There's another thing I would recommend for people that could help. This is I guess this will be like a sixth one, but like, I'm a big fan of like pulling a card a day, like those kinds of those decks and the guy who kind of mostly started it, I don't think he invented it, but Brian, you know, the musician Brian, you know, he had these oblique strategy cards. They're sort of the best to me because they're one word, really vague, very simple. And sometimes like, for example, one just says water. And then the other one says, go backwards.
And then the other one says like something like meh is okay, or something like that. Or it's, it was made in the 80s. So I don't think meh was a word then, but it was something like that. But I find a lot of people like nobody really goes that minimal the way Brian, you know, went because that was his era where he did ambient music, which was like all about being minimal. So like, that could help a very cluttered mind.
But that is great. It's kind of eight ball logic. It's kind of like your your little like we're rolling the dice, it sort of removes some choice. But we're all creative. So like when it's water, most people just go, Oh, I'm going to drink water more often. Some people it's like flow like water, you know, like that's what my brain would do.
I'd be like Bruce Lee that shit today. Come on, that's your game. So like gamification may allow sort of a dopamine boost as you gamify your day, you know, so I mean,
William Curb: that is like a lot with the winter talk about like, yeah, the reward systems and that's a lot of like gamifying, like, yeah, we're giving ourselves time limits, we're giving ourselves wars, we're giving ourselves, you can think of putting on music as a, you know, power up for doing the dishes.
Saman Kesh: I have another card that I use for we're not really strangers. And it's called like self love or self care, one of those two. But you just pull a card and they're typically designed to ask other people questions, but it's just asking yourself a question. And they're really, they're really nice. So some people kind of need like emotional boost or self esteem boost. That's another one. Yeah, it's we're not really strangers. It's like the company that makes all of them. And then it's like a pink box and it's called the I believe it's self love. And it's a really helpful card.
So I keep that handy as well as well as Oakleek strategies by Brian Eno, but yeah, all right, brother, thanks. It was great seeing you. Thank you for making some time for me to chat and I hope people are enjoy this episode.
William Curb: All right, sounds good.
William Curb: Thanks again to Saman for coming on the show and thank you for sticking with us all the way to the end. Before you go though, let's do a quick rundown of today's top tips. One, try reducing friction on your most important tools, move your organizational tools like white boards to do lists somewhere visible and easy to access out of sight really is out of mind with ADHD. Two, lower the stakes when a task feels overwhelming. Remember, it doesn't have to be perfect or done all at once. If we can reduce the emotional weight of a task, it often reduces the paralysis.
Three, when feeling stuck, try spicing things up by using things like dice, tactile tools, or creative mini games, like drawing a doodle or rolling a task die to inject novelty and dopamine in your routine. All right, that's it. Thanks for listening. I'd love to hear what you thought of this episode. Feel free to connect with me over at hackingradhd.com/contact.
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And now for your moment of dad. If you've been watching on YouTube, you have noticed that I have facial hair again. I wasn't sure about doing a beard again, but it's been growing on me.