Well, welcome back everyone. This is Jack Smith again and
today I have Chris here. Hey Chris, how you doing?
Hi Jack. I'm pleased to be here with you. Well, thank you. What an
opportunity. Wow,
do I feel the sarcasm flowing into the room here or are we good?
I don't know what you're talking about. That's fine, that's fine, that's fine.
So I got you, I asked you to join
here because today I want to yabel a bit about domains and
that seems to be stuff that you might be a little bit of acquainted with.
Been there for a couple of years. Sure, lovely. So no,
I was going to discuss about in, in all our merger
and acquisition processes. So when you buy a company they seem
to have all kind of Internet facing things with websites, with email and their
domains and I just wanted to share a bit on how,
how it works and how you transfer those and to the new
ownerships and all the problems that come
that come with it. So welcome to fun with
domains domain. Yeah. Yes.
I mean you mentioned it all already so I think we're done here. No,
thank you for tuning in. See you next. See you next month. No,
seriously, I mean domains. Yes. What can I say about them? Domains and
DNS. Well, I mean certainly especially if you're a small business, you have
to make sure when you register your domain that is in the name of your
web designer so you can access it when you fire them or when they
want to hold you hostage later on because you don't pay their bills or something
like that. There's a very good one that I was going to say for later.
I'm sorry, no, no, no, jumping ahead right here. Well, it's okay actually
because it's a good one to keep in mind to
always read your contract. One of the companies I was moving over,
they had with their Internet, they had their domain name
through an Internet and the thing
was if they moved away one service, they would lose the complete Internet service,
including the domain name. So if we transferred the domain name they
would lose their entire telco contract. Which is kind of actually a good
advice and a good jump too because I
prefer to buy my domain name someplace else than the rest of the services.
Don't we all. And so I have my direct control over that part.
And when the other stuff breaks on, not if, when the other stuff breaks down,
you still at least have your domain name and can point it elsewhere.
That's the thing. Indeed. So no, it's, it's looking
at some, some merchant
acquisitions, M and A in in the past it's always something that
let's forget. Like the domain is. Because I always think about oh, let's, let's copy
over the email. Let's, let's do this from, from, from Google
Cloud to Azure Cloud to it, from local to, to somewhere else.
That's all fine. But then you have to tell the Internet that the emails have
moved and, and also your, your and
what the fun always starts with the inventory
because you're, you're contacting the current, the old owners
of the, who's running the company these days and you ask them like hey,
can you please give me a list of your domain names? First you
have to tell them what the domain name is and usually they will forget some
of them too. They will forget and then you, they come back and they will
give you four or five and then they forgot that they have six,
seven others registered in different languages in different countries. So they
will have, they will have the dot com but also the dot net and the
org which they don't use but, but that they have. And they fell for the
Chinese scam too about the domain registrations that somebody else is trying to
register your domains. So they have those CN domains that they will never use.
They have, I have seen, I have seen domains registered
in Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Greece, everywhere that you
could, you could imagine. And indeed and they're, you find out
that they're paying €50, €60 a year per domain name
for that. Just money being, being, being thrown out. And then you
know, you're, you're the lucky person that comes in to clean all of that up.
It's, it's, it's a, it's, it's a challenge because if
you're lucky they're all registered at the same place. If you're not,
then every person that once made an
online web app for them put it on its own domain name, does the own
registration and then you can find out what's
where before you have the entire listing. Yeah, the domain is like the unloved stepchild
that is kind of important but you kind of forget about it too. And you
don't know who registered it. And like we said your app designer,
an old employee who's long gone or where
was registered because I knew somebody there or whatever and, or it was
a country level domain that you could only get at one registrar or something like
that. Definitely interesting challenges or you're using
shortcuts for your website in Bitly. And Bitly,
that's Libya, a very stable country to rely on for your Shortcuts
and social media, of course. I mean nothing against Bitly, but I'm just.
Oh yeah, true. That's Libya. Oh yeah. Just think about those things when
you pick your domains or you have a TV and that island happens to
be syncing Tuvalu and at one point, I mean ICANN isn't very
fast at shutting those down, so I mean there's little risk. The latest example for
that is Dot. Sorry, which one was it?
Shit Dot. Shit Dot.
Shit. Doesn't exist yet. That's in the next round for new applications. That's a
good tld. Sorry, lost my train of thought. I think it's.
Was it. Oh, IO.
Sorry. Yes. IO is recent for the island.
The British ocean island territories are changing
potentially ownership to the Maldives which is
a. And then the IO will. Is a less stable government than cease to exist
and IO does in theory doesn't exist anymore. I mean so, I mean but we've
been sunsetting SU for the Soviet Union for a long time and
therefore still domains being registered sometimes under it, which isn't really according to
the rules, but hey,
Okay. No, no, I never had to go
that far in my thing. There is a.
And then once. Once you have all the domain names,
you have to get all the information and then when you're dealing with small
businesses like the big mega corp that is doing the acquisition
that needs and wants to take control of the. Of the domain names, they will.
They will ask you a simple question. Hi, can you please provide me the
zone files? Yeah, well, that's pretty simple. No,
for us. Yes, but imagine that you are a
small business of five folks in the office and 10 in
the workshop and you ask like hi, can you give me your zone files?
Yeah, so because that's going to be the next step before you transfer kind
of the domains to your. To your name servers,
I guess I would say. Yeah, I mean how do you transfer
zone files? Best thing is to print out a bind file on paper and close
that. That doesn't work. I've been asking for zone files left and right
multiple registrars and they like at.
At best they will go into some configuration
webpage from the reseller of. Of the. That the registrar
uses. Like yes, this is our config and you get a screenshot of a web
page with some say I don't. No any registrar that actually exports zone
files for you. No, but any DNS for provider. So I mean like let's say
you sign up for a new account at. Well, I don't know if I Want
to mention, well, Cloudflare or whatever somewhere and they
try to guess all your records. That's usually not. I mean they
go for the standard ones. Yes, but it may or may not work.
Some internal interfaces may be missing.
Yeah, it's my preferred tool to get the zone files
is just choose the command line in Windows NSLookup just
set a type to any and then just get the domain
and then you will get most of it. But not everything. Most name servers are
not that generous anymore in their responses because it kind of helps
other people too that try to like, I mean there used to be an LS
command too and there is. Maybe you should even use
a tool like subdomain Finder. I mean that does exist mostly used by people
that are trying to. Trying to do bad things on your domains.
But you know, maybe you can use those as those things as a tool as
well. That's. I have to add it.
I've always been using NSLookUp to just gather what I have
and then you know, I know the A records, I know NEC names, I know
the nmix, I know the usual culprits. You can then just put in
a sheet and give to Megacorp who will configure it on their DNS
and then they come back. Oh, by the way, we need to transfer the
DNS so can you please go ahead and disable DNSSEC
on all those domains? Oh yeah, of course.
DNSSEC already. I don't know, I was thinking a good DNS
company should also just take one step back quickly. Should also be
able to enable an actual zone file transfer. That's, that's the thing in the protocol
used between second primary, primary, secondary.
The authentication code is what they forget next.
Yeah, so that's. Well, kind of anyways.
Yes, the DNS should be disabled, at least temporarily because likely
your signing is not going to work anymore after. Nope, you transferred the
zones. It won't go anymore. And then yeah, you have the, the authentication
code and then pending your luck, they will make it valid for somewhere
between three days and three months. Well, the authentication code to transfer
the domain now. Yeah, the actual domain. Yes, that's definitely one of the next
steps. And of course to make it easier for you, the industry has
established that there's different standards between all cctlds
like the country level domains and like de BE
and so on. DK and versus
the I can regulated generic top level
domains. Is that a fair term? Yeah, I guess so. Not close enough. I'll allow
it. Okay. Yeah, so everybody has their own standard for
your pleasure. And of course,
like Jack was already saying, you can kind of expect
different expiries for the various codes. And there's a difference between transferring
the domain to another registrar and transferring. Or there can be a difference between transferring
a domain to another registrar and transferring the ownership of the domain.
In the ICANN world, that's kind of two different procedures. Of course.
And in cctlds they just do their own shit.
Well, because you can or maybe make up their own shit. Yes,
I don't think we have to send any faxes in most countries nowadays anymore.
It doesn't do faxes anymore, I think. But yeah, I was, I was
yesterday evening I was discussing with some other IT
folks and we were still like. Because you mentioned faxes, we were actually
discussing TLX over ip. Oh, wow. Yes.
So. So, you know, sending effects is pretty modern.
I forgot about telex. As, as long as you're not doing telex anymore
to, to some, to some far away place
that still has it switched on because you
have gateways now I think if you really, really, really want to send a telex.
But the telex networks have been shut down in our part of the,
of the, of the planet, so. But yeah, well, if you want confirmation
faxes even, even that would be a challenge because like, you know, like, you know,
if you live in a country that has stopped using faxes,
you have a problem.
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We now return to our episode of today.
So despite all of that, let's say you, you initiated the.
The transfer, you likely need to approve it from all the outdated
email addresses that are on the listed on the domain someplace which will. Which will
lead to point to mailboxes which are no longer read. Email addresses which no
longer exist. And that's not a problem because somebody else already registered the domain for
you in order to. In an attempt to steal your domain. So true.
Yeah, so that's half the work done. They may have even read about your buying
this company and maybe targeting you specifically.
Yeah, because usually my
team usually comes in after Megacorp has made the announcement
that things were going to be taken over.
So then yes, you made yourself a target already. So you
are, you are a target. And security wise
that's a completely different episode. But that is certainly one. So why not get everybody's
help in transferring your domain someplace, at least someplace that you control
and not to, you know,
a little small business software developer
Inc. That happens to, you know, resell some,
some domain names left and right. Indeed. Yeah. But seriously, make sure like
your admin email address and the ones of the companies that you buy like that
you control all of those domains, email boxes that relate to that because
if you don't, somebody else will take advantage of it.
Yeah, it is really easy if there's
some strange email address and then it's bye bye domain name.
That's right. Also, there may be some value in the domains
that are in the other companies that you acquire. It's not unusual
or not unknown that some of them may forget a domain
name that was part of their assets and may just try to sell it elsewhere
like something that is from an older business that they bought or something
like that. There's a bunch of big companies that tend to collect domain names and
having them collect dust in the corner until somebody needs
them and they may have maybe some value in there as well that
if you're buying a company, why not if you can sell one of the,
the domains that you include a couple
of million generic, generic brand names. And there
was a project once for a
paint mixer and they would have every, every brand of
paint mixer they would have registered and strong paint,
green paint, white paint, road paint dot, a couple TLD.
So we ended up with 40, 50 domain
names and of course green was registered on the left
and on the right because some guy in marketing said we need those as well.
And then you end up with contact email addresses,
going to random Gmail and Hotmail stuff because that's the
default that they had of course. I mean there's
lots of fun you can have with domains. I remember in the mid-1990s
there was a company that was in the,
in the baking sector or something like that, you could say, or like supplies
for baking. And they had like 90 different domains.
And one of my acquaintances around this time thought it would be funny
to set up a system where you can set up your own email forwards.
So you would have subdomains with dots in between. So you could say none
of them was in English. I'm trying to think of a good example, but I
don't Know, maybe I'll leave that because I might also need to be
able to figure out which company that was. I have a, I have a good
one for domain names which are, which are stuck and it's a, it's a public
thing. That's if it's out on the Internet.
Our, our online shop of everything.
Amazon, they have the, the. The dot com,
the fr. The de. The co. UK Nl they have them
all except one which is dot BE oh,
of course, yes. And it's not because of the Belgians.
Mr. Bezos started his online bookstore. There was
an insurance company from Volvo that named
their insurance company after one
of the models, the Volvo Amazon, which was a model they sold in the 70s.
So they had the copyright on the name back then in,
in the 90s and in a different class. And they, and,
and they registered Amazon Be perfectly
legal. Perfectly legal. There was like
the Internet didn't really exist all that much. There was no online bookstore.
There certainly was no, no thing selling you online
cloud services. And then of course big Amazon
would like, hi, we would like to buy this domain name from you. And they
said nah, we'll keep it. And they've, they've been offered
large number of zeros. It's like, no we don't.
And I think even today.
So the webshop did launch in Belgium. Yeah.
But they're using Amazon.com be so they,
they acquire.com.com.be or they're using it
or whatever. And now it's Amazon.com
be where everywhere else it is.de.fr.es.com
I guess I didn't go high enough in the offer then. Well, potentially it's
like, yeah, or they don't, don't know. But if you, if you go, if you
take the financing and the insurance from,
from Volvo in, in Belgium. Your insurance paper is
from Amazon Belgium, the insurance company that has the domain name.
So I guess I need to keep it for that purpose too just yet.
You know, if I could
get away with annoying big Amazon for a reason,
of course I think we would all do it. I mean you had a similar
chance recently when Elon Musk bought back Twitter
now as it's called X, he actually decided to drop all the
country level domains. Twitter.de dropped Twitter CA. Okay,
some people re registered those. Yeah, I'm sure they're getting some decent traffic, you know,
to monetize. Of course, yeah. But he just felt it wasn't important enough. Even though
he kind of does understand domains. X.com is a great domain there aren't
very many single letter.com domains. True. So you kind of,
you can see that he understands some of it. But obviously he didn't see any
value in the local presence variants of Twitter. For some weird
point. I mean it was funny to see them pop up throughout all the countries
when they were deleting. Because if you let one go in the process of transferring
your domains, for example, you can be sure if there's traffic or potential
to sell the domain, somebody will try to pick it up and they will likely
be. Or they're more likely to be successful, more successful than you because
they know how to do it. Because Fair enough. Because the process is complicated.
Different from top level domain to top level domain and especially in
country levels, there's specific services that can help you
acquire them. But if you're not in this industry, you're lost. You don't know how
that works because timing is weird and everybody has their own.
I'm just the user that is trying to move some domain names
and you really cross your fingers that it, it goes, everybody gets the
email, everybody replies in time and that your,
your transfer code, your DNS sec, that it all comes together and
you know, even you even go and you know, sacrifice a goat somewhere
just to make very sure that it, it just goes over.
Right? And then the rest is easy. You just need to change the IP addresses
to your new servers that's re established dnssec.
Make sure your SPF records and DMARC records
are set up correctly. Everybody always forgets the
SPF records until the email doesn't get delivered. Unless like. Yeah, because everybody
is using now cloud based accounting
software which is sending your invoices through your email address and
then suddenly these no longer arrive. And then like, why not? Oh, it's the,
oh yeah, you, you moved over the system and you broke everything. And of course
the, the feedback you get is our email doesn't work.
Right, that's, that's easy. No, that's easy to diagnose. It's easy
to diagnose. Email doesn't work. And then like, well, I, I sent you an email.
It's clearly email. Does it mean your email bounces? Does it mean you're
getting timeout when you're trying? Yes, it doesn't work. But you always get very
qualified reports of issues like that. Yes, of course, because it's
from, you know, people that are not used to diagnosing and they
had their local support company when they were independent,
but now that they're part of Mega Corp, they have to call the service desk
and then it's like yeah, the email doesn't work and the service desk person says
email doesn't work equals P1. And then
next five minutes later you're in a cert meeting
that at the new acquired company the email doesn't work. And it
does work. And when you dig, oh yeah, they can't send invoices anymore.
And then from experience you come to the txts
and the DMARCS and the SPF records like hey, did we transfer
those? Because you know, we didn't get a zone file and we might not have
copied them over. Well, you should capture them as part of the transfer
process. But likely in your transition you're also going to change your email
providers. I think you will. We're not talking about migrating email here.
That's always fun too. I think it doesn't.
Well first of all you do a DNS migration
so that you have control over the DNS records and then
the next step will include moving over the mailboxes from
365 tenant to tenant or Google mail to heaven
forbid on prem. But who knows if you're into that.
Yeah, no, not so much. Email is kind of support intense
and failure rich to say
the least. And it's very much generalized to not work.
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Yes, for sure. What are the other scenarios?
I mean your registrar could screw you over or something like that. I mean there
used to be we were talking about taking ownership of the domain. There was a
story that most people in the industry kind of would know where.
RegisterFly was a very company that was selling domains very
cheap. They were reseller initially. They managed to become an
ICANN accredited registrar. So on the accurate level I don't
know how they managed that part. And since they disappeared
and without having all of the correct customer data on file it
was really hard like so when I can did have a process for a
registrar going out of business and there's also something called registrar data
escrow which kind of means you store the information
that is in the that
is the who is information kind of the ownership information of the domain and what
is used to manage it in a backup database. Used to be
mostly with Iron Mountain. Most of them are now with DNIC which
is also German registry operator in any case. So now
the obligation is to store the underlying data. Like as you know, most registrars
have whois privacy to hide your information for protracting to
comply with gdpr. If you do a whois of a domain,
you get nothing back. Yeah, basically you can't really find the owner
or contact the owner anymore, which makes a domain selling and buying domain names
a bit more complicated too. But in any case, so the registrar
itself in the ICANN world is kind of obliged to store the WHOIS
information once a week or once a day, depending on your size.
And at that point there was no obligation to
store the underlying WHOIS information, meaning if it's private, that you
have the actual ownership of the domain. So for registerfly, and I also think they
failed to submit their deposits in general, so for them this
information was missing. So you have like 1000-002000-00300,000
domains and you don't actually know who owns them. Maybe they
can prove by like the original receipt or something like that. It's a big mess
to track something like that down. So those rules have improved slightly and
potentially you're more likely to be safe in a scenario
like this. But it does happen on occasion that somebody goes out of business or
disappears. Usually they don't pay their ICANN fees anymore and that's how they.
And then they just get dropped, start get kicked out after a while and ICANN
offers to transfer the domains to somebody else, tries to find somebody, another registrar
that will take kind of aligns with the offering and the region where the customers
were. That's often a mess too though still to
mention that afterwards because everybody has to coordinate together
to collect the data, make sure the data is right, import the customers and so
on. Not an easy process either. Usually on the registrar side.
Yeah, so I don't know, you got your domain transferred and your
DMARC and then you're basically good to go for your next step which
would be then migrate any web hosting services,
do your email and any
crazy application on a subdomain that some company built in for you that there's
like configuration tools for paint color to automate
any quote requests. Yes, your web UI
design guide is probably on the subdomain, maybe a wiki, an internal wiki or something.
Well, let's just hope that they
didn't name their internal active directory to an external domain
name. Yes, because that has happened as well and
that's. Well, now you have an ad migration to go with it
at the same time.
I mean actually there's a process at icancel when
there's an upcoming round for applying for
new top level domains and there's a collision in the evaluation of new
applications as a collision part of the process where basically I can
turn on the made up TLD that doesn't exist at that point temporarily
and checks if there's any queries for it
like dot internal or something like that. Commonly used
internal local. Yeah. And so they wouldn't allow you
to register that or create that as a top level domain. But it's an interesting
measurement. I mean even at one point VeriSign,
the dot com registry decided that they should try what happens if
they let all.com domains resolve no matter if they were registered or not?
Because I figured it was a good opportunity to
display advertising on it and earn some extra cash.
Which actually resulted in a lawsuit between VeriSign and
ICANN because ICANN kind of said no, you can't do this. And then Verisign said
who are you to tell us? And the rest is kind of settled out of
court. So I'm not extravagant. Exactly. Happened. But to me the result of that
seems to be that VeriSign can increase their prices almost every year by
up to. What is the percentage? I don't know, 7 to 10% or something like
that. But they can't do this for the next two years because the Department of
Commerce got involved at one point and set some limits on the price increase.
Oh wow. Okay. This is kind of what brought registries in general, domain registries
like the ones that own the top level domain, the ability
to increase prices at will, especially in the new top level domains.
They just need to tell you ahead of time and then your registrar needs to
tell you too because they forget often. That's not in the ICAN rules, that part.
But yeah, it's just like you're going to be paying as of next
year, you're going to be paying for your domains. You're going to pay, you paid
a $10 so far. Next year it's going to be a thousand dollars a year.
It's not unheard of. So I'm not. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah. Some of those TLDs, they will, they will, they will say oh yeah,
we give you a good deal initially and then after a few years it just
like skyrockets. So yeah, that's on the registry side, but sometimes it's on the,
on the registrar side usually, but also on the registry side. I mean
registrars are known for, I mean registrars actually don't make much money
on the, on the domains. They have very low margins and that's why they will
say oh, we will give you the first year for $1 but for the second
year you pay the normal price double instead.
So we add that all into your cart together and now you paying
more than at other registrars. But it looked cheaper before.
Well, it sells. Many people
just forget about the domain names. The renewal invoice comes in and they just
paid because yeah, it's a domain name. We must use it if it's actually online
for something but they just get the invoice and it's paid. And if you forget
this for three, four years, it's basically free money. Well, there's also the Domain Registry
of Europe and Domain Registry of America and Domain Registry of Canada which
is a fake. Well, it's a registrar but they will send you renewal
reminders for the domains that you have registered elsewhere when
they can still access your postal address. That is because they actually did come in
the mail those letters and they will incent you to renew their
domain with them. And if you look in the fine printed transfer of the
domain. I haven't seen those letters in quite a while. Well that's
because of who is being probably kind of fixed
this. Don't worry, the next EU regulation is coming soon where will
have to provide more data to register domains. Oh lovely. Because you're a kernel by
default and we need to make sure that we have all your information when you're.
I had some customers trying to register domains
randomly in some countries and now like no, you need a valid phone number suddenly.
So some are asking more than others and
if you just type in an obviously fake phone number it, it won't take.
Yeah. So there's. They do a check, there's KYC requirements know
your customer kind of that are going almost to a level.
Yeah. Where banks are now a bit and it's
painful for a registrar too because you spend a lot of money on enforcing these
and getting info and validating it and
it is like making everybody a criminal by default. The whole.
The latest directive that is coming up and is ready or
proposed for implementation in the EU countries is NIS 2 and
that's kind of. It's basically like a KYC regulation for domain
and hosting domain companies. It's everywhere as
many, many Online things have NAS2 requirements
coming and had some banks already implementing
it and they're, they're just
not, not, not prepared to handle all of that, let alone to ask it,
let alone than to verify it. So yeah, if you're not also going to do
that to domains, then you will, you know,
the next, the next requirement will be your shoe size. Yeah, of course,
shoe size, blood type, you know, the usual stuff.
Well, some countries have that on the driver's license already, so it's.
Yeah, well, that's for other purposes. Hopefully for other purposes. But yeah.
So I think, I mean there are some requirements already for validation,
like kind of ICANN requires the address to be in a
valid format. It doesn't mean that needs to be a real address, but. And you
need to verify at least the email address. I mean, phone number is an option
there and some registrars may already do that and NIS2
is kind of depending on how the individual countries in Europe are going to implement
it. It's going to make some of those requirements worse,
however, I don't think, I mean, I guess I don't really have to say it,
but this doesn't prevent any crime because if you are a criminal,
you can come up with a valid address and phone number. And that is
not to you. It's not. There are certain corners
of the Internet where you can just buy those lists. It's not that hard.
And of course it creates more
data of all of us that is out there, usually with some other external provider
because the registrars don't implement this themselves. It's actually. Yeah, it's creating business.
So let's not forget that part. Just look at how many people can provide
your cookie consent policies for your. For your website
nowadays since gdpr, it's fairly regulated, so you
usually outsource that too because it's too hard to keep track of all the individual
rules. And we'll have the same here. There's actually already
some new address validation companies that are coming out of nowhere and competing
over price. So. So we'll see where that goes.
We're gonna keep that for a
different episode. Yes, I think here we've explained
fun with domain names. We have touched fun with the.
There's more fun to be had. But wait, there's more.
There's more. But that's gonna be in a different episode. That's fine.
Thank you, Jack. No, Chris, thanks for joining.
Appreciate your input and your history in the
field. I hope everybody listening picked something
new up, had some, had some good laughs and as always,
thanks for tuning in. And as our
messages will tell you, follow us on all the socials
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thanks a lot for tuning in. See you next time. Cheers.
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only and is meant to humorously explore various tech related situations.
Any resemblance to actual events or real person,
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