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If you're like me, you have a few books in your life that

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generally changed how you thought, how you felt,

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and how you acted. One of them, for me is the wealthy barber.

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It arrived in my life 36 years ago, and I think of it

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as sort of this quiet little miracle. There's no charts, there's no

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jargon, just a simple story set in a barbershop.

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But a story that helped millions of Canadians, including myself, feel confident

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with money for the first time. And I wasn't alone. This book

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has sold millions of copies. I think is Canada's

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best seller of all time. And not because it screamed at people,

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because it spoke to them. Today, money feels heavier than it did back

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then. The cost of living has squeezed young adults. Home

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ownership feels out of reach for many, and this pressure to present a

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perfect life online makes spending tacticians so hard

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to ignore. So when David Chilton and Nasi was returning with a

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fully updated version of his classic, people paid attention. I paid

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attention. After all, the original helped an entire generation

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find stability. I did feel the pressure. I mean, you were writing an

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update to a book that had that kind of popularity. It's tough.

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The book had to be better, and. The hope is a new

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one could do the same at a time when stability feels scarce. The big

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thing is you can't overwhelm them. You can't confuse them, and. But those are important

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aspects of financial planning now, so they have to get in there. It's not enough

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just to explain them. How do people prioritize? David spent

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16 months rewriting, rethinking, and retesting every idea in the

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book. What I love about what he's done is he preserved what

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still makes sense, and he replaced what no longer does.

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And through it all, he kept the same mission that drove him in 1989.

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Take the intimidation out of personal finance. Give people a path to

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follow that is simple, practical, and doable. It's the spoonful of

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sugar to help the medicine go down. By using a little humor and using the

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story, you're pulling people in. And again, you're taking that intimidation out. And I

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think that's why it's worked. So I'm thrilled to have

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him back on Chatter that matters. Not just because he wrote a classic.

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Because he has lived a life defined by service, humility, and a

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genuine desire to help Canadians make better choices. Today, we

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talk about what has changed, what has, what is not, and how everyday

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people can reclaim a sense of control in a financial world that

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often feels stacked against them.

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Hi. It's Tony Chapman. Thank you for listening to Chatter that Matters, presented

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by rbc. If you can please subscribe to the podcast

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and ratings reviews, well, they're always welcome and they're always

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appreciated.

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David, welcome back to Chatter that Matters. Tony, thank you so much for the

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lovely introduction. And I must say, before we start, I came onto Chatter

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that Matters, as you know, a few years ago. Of all the podcasts I've done,

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that's the one I heard the most about, received the most feedback from. So

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good for you. The podcast has been a big success. I enjoyed that interview

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immensely and I'm truly happy to be back again. You know, David, there's so much

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we can talk about, but first and foremost is your

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motivation for doing this. I know you as a personal friend

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and this isn't about money. This isn't about fame.

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This isn't about another award or another record set. You truly

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want to help everyday Canadians take the in out of

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insecurity and the on out of uncertainty when it comes to their money? Yeah, no,

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I honestly do. And thank you for saying that. And I think that I'm old,

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you know, at 63 when I started writing 62, this second book, I

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realized if I don't get at it soon, I may not get at it. But

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I think, as you mentioned in the intro, there's so many more challenges now.

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And my kids friends were asking so many questions. My friend's

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kids were asking so many questions. I was reading about all of the tough times

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out there, how much more difficult it is to save real estate prices,

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obviously leading the challenge list. And I thought it's the perfect time to

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bring back that approach. Take the intimidation out, wrap it in a story,

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use some humor, but recognize that these challenges are very real.

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There's no magical answers. Here are the best paths you can take. You

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probably can't do all of these things, so here are the nuances you need to

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understand so you can prioritize in the proper direction. And so

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far, the book's gone over very well. And it really was a lot of fun

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writing it, but challenging. I mean, there was many days I was almost in tears

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because you're retesting it. You have to start over. Maybe it didn't resonate the

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way you thought it would and you're back at the drawing board. Crazily enough, it

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took me four months longer to write the rewrite than it did to write the

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original. I have to believe, though, because of the success you

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had, you never imagined the success you'd have with a wealthy Barber.

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I sure didn't. The numbers you realize and continue to realize with this

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book, no one could have predicted. So it must have been a lot of pressure

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to say, if I'm going to put my name on version 2,

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I can understand why it took longer to write, because if you've done Abbey Road,

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you don't want to put something out that's going to pale in comparison. I did

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feel the pressure. I mean, you were writing an update to a book that had

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that kind of popularity. It's tough, and you really have to live up to

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that. And so I started out, as corny as this sounds, with the goal

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the book had to be better, making it even more inviting, covering

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off more material, making sure the flow was as good, et cetera, et cetera. That

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meant more and more testing. As you know, I use a very unusual writing approach

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where I am constantly involving the target demographic, garnering your

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feedback, doing the rewrites, et cetera. Did even more of that with the update than

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I did with the original, but you've nailed it. I did feel the pressure. I

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mean, even when the book launched, you're hitting the early feedback. It's coming

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back to you. You're a little bit nervous about the whole thing. So I am

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truly thrilled that it's going over the way it is. Society's so cynical

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nowadays, and the obvious thing people would go to is, you

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know, he's run out of ideas, so he's trying to put a new ribbon around

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old ideas. But the reality is, it is new. What

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did you preserve from 1989? What are some of the lessons you offered

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us back then that are still the lessons in life that we should

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be following when it comes to our money? Well, one of the big ones I

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really tried to hit on in chapter three was, you can do this, that it's

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not as complicated as people make it out to be. In fact, interestingly, in the

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world of finance, it's the simple stuff that works. People have often said

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to me, well, you're dealing with the masses, so you focus on the simple stuff.

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And I say, no, I focus on the simple stuff because it's what works.

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The complicated products, the fancy option strategies, all those

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types of things, they work better for the person selling them and pitching them than

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for the person investing in them. In fact, you know, there was a book that

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came out recently in the States called Fixed by John Campbell, a Harvard

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professor of economics, and he said the exact same thing. Good financial

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planning is relatively straightforward. It's the simple things that work. So how can we

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teach those most effectively? So chapter three, I really focused on that

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eternal message of, you can do this. It's not that complicated. You don't have to

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have wonderful math skills. You don't have to be a finance major. Most of this

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is very understandable. You can learn along with the narrator, learn along

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with the characters in the Barbershop. In fact, the fact that narrator speaks

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out right away and says, I hate math, I hate finance, I think

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invites people in to go, good. The narrator, it said, so do I. Let's go

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along on the journey. So that part of it was definitely maintained. And then a

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lot of the common big picture themes like pay yourself first, why you

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have to save something. All of those things, of course, were maintained. The

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challenge is now. The difference is now we have more ways to do that.

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Instead of just RSPs, there's also TFSAs, there's

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FHSAs. Instead of just mutual funds, there's index funds, and,

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of course, ETFs. You have to explain all those to the reader.

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The big thing is you can't overwhelm them. You can't confuse them. But those

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are important aspects of financial planning now, so they have to get in there. And

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I think the biggest challenge on the writing front, the biggest reason it took so

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long, it's not enough just to explain them. How do people

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prioritize? So which route do I take first? I can't save to the

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desired level. I'm pinched because of homeownership costs. I'm pinched because of the cost of

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living. I want to set aside something. Where's my best place to start if I

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can do that, what's the next step, et cetera? So all of that took a

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long time to weave in. It really was a blessing that this particular

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format gives you a lot of characters in the Barbershop. And so

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because of that, you can cover off a wide variety of scenarios. And that

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really played to my advantage more in book two even than it did in book

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one. Many people probably don't know this about you, and you

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actually shared a clip when you were doing some standup comedy.

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Humor is a big part of your vernacular, and humor

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and money don't necessarily go together. Your storytelling

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and your humor, it makes it so accessible. Is this just

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something that you've always been blessed with? And I know you credit a lot of

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your relationship with your dad, but is this just something where you go, I've always

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been inspired by stories, therefore I'm going to use stories as the platform

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to inspire others. Yeah, you Said that very well. I mean, I've always been drawn

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into stories with the beginning, the middle, the end, the character, the

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conflict, and, of course, the humor can spice it up. You mentioned my

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father. Very good communicator, used humor. But honestly, my sister

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probably played an even bigger role. Three years older. I grew up with her telling

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stories and taking shots at me constantly and using a lot of humor.

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She's very funny, and I think I picked up on a lot of it from

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her. I fell into a very funny friend group, like, very funny. And so

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all of that became a part of my life. But really, again, a lot of

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this. And you said this when you and I first spoke about the wealthy barber

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years ago. It's the spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down. You were

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the one who made that comparison. And I thought, that's bang on. By

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using a little humor and using the story, you're pulling people in, and again, you're

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taking that intimidation out, and I think that's why it's worked. You know, one of

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the things that really roared through your book is when I grew up, you know,

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they talked about trying to keep up with the Joneses. They got the second car.

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I need the second car. But today, you're talking about. This is a constant

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itch in social media that everybody's trying to put their best

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life forward. They're the most interesting person, they're the one that has the most

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cachet, that they're going to garner the most likes. And. And that's creating

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such a temptation to spend beyond your means.

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And you really come at that in terms of. In the short term,

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that might give you immediate gratification, but it's not setting you up for the long

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term. It isn't. And, you know, I'm glad you brought that up. I mean, I

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don't normally say things like this, but I'm honestly very proud of

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chapter nine of the book, Saving Savvy. You know, I put so much work into

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that chapter. Tested well, almost right out of the gate. Kind of 30 years experience

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watching people make mistakes. What they've done well, what they've done right. Weaving it

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all into the advice of that chap. But a big part of it was, it's

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tougher now. It's not just people showing off their highlight moments and drawing

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you in with FOMO and everything else. It's the algorithms. The algorithms

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are so advanced now and so able to hit us at our weak spots and

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tempt us with things. And, of course, it's so easy to Buy now. It's one

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click away. It's one tap away. It's tougher on this generation,

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the younger people, kind of 45 and under now, than it was when you and

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I were that age for sure. Anybody who denies that is out of touch.

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It's a tough environment to try to shut off all that noise, rise above it,

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and still do some successful saving. It's not easy. You know, I

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talked about keeping up with the Joneses and the second car in the driveway,

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and I was happy to say that you continue to use owning

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a car as a consistent financial pitfall. And

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it's amazing the percentage of Canadians who by any common

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sense measure, spend too much on cars. The car industry has done a

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remarkable job over the last decades convincing us that

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we have to define ourselves to some extent by our car and we've all

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bought in. What kills me about this is so often I will sit with somebody

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and help them out and say, you know, you're spending quite a bit too much

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on cars. And you know what they'll say? Yeah, we are. No, we know that.

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It's common sense. We are a. Dave, we're going to change that. Then, of course,

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they never do. And so even though the younger generation has legitimate

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beef about real estate prices relative to income, cost of goods

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relative to income, a lot of them make strange voluntary spending

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decisions on the car front. I would love to see us get that under control.

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You know, you talk about housing decisions, and I would say the anxiety,

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the narrative coming from Ottawa provincial leaders,

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municipal leaders, is the affordability of housing. And you talk

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about housing anxiety, you talk about renting and buying both carry

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risks and rewards. What advice can you offer people that forever

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they thought part of the passage, the Canadian dream, was to put a key in

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the lock and say, that's my home. And, you know, people still think that for

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the most part. So when I was going out doing all the pre research, talking

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to people in their 20s and 30s, most still want to own a. And they

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want to own a home. Not even a townhome and not a condominium. They want

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to own a home with the yard, et cetera. That's still the Canadian dream in

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the vast majority of cases. So I have to realistically say to

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them that may not be possible in all instances. Rent is not throwing your

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money away. Here's the math and how it looks. Here's some of the combinations and

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permutations of all of the thinking that gets involved here and try to make them

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seem understand. It's still hopeful, but it is tough

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and there are some levers you can pull to make it somewhat easier. One of

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them is managing expectations that fairly or unfairly, the average income

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can't buy the average price any house anymore. And therefore you're gonna have to start

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out a little bit lower. I emphasize smaller. Not everybody can move to

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less expensive districts. Maybe you go to 30 year amortization. We

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came at the homeownership chapter from so many different directions,

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trying to show people here's the way you can think. But all of that recognized

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it's tough. In fact, one of the things Roy says in the book, for example,

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is if you're single, there may not be a magical answer here unless you have

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a very outsized income because it is tough to afford all these.

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Now housing prices throughout most of the country, not everywhere, have been trending down

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a little bit. So that will help on the affordability front, especially with rates right

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now staying level and maybe even going to dip at some point in the next

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six months to a year. This wasn't in your book, which means you're going to

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have to write the third version. But Donald Trump coming out and

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talking about 50 year amortization. And it's getting quite a bit

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of blowback because basically it's saying you're just leasing your house and

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you'll never own it. What are your thoughts in terms of making

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sure that financial advice comes from people

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like you and from financial institutions versus necessarily

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the rhetoric of political leaders who might have more self

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serving ambitions at stake? I'll tell you that specific idea.

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The problem with it, if you go to 50 year AM, that'll get

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capitalized back into the price of the house. So because it'll

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lower your monthly payment, it'll just get shifted over and the housing

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prices will go up and that'll take your monthly monthly payment back up more or

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less to where it was. We've seen that in Canada with some of the initiatives

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we've attempted. It's very difficult without increased supply. Increased

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supply of what the consumer actually wants to really have a dampening effect

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on real estate prices, etc. But your point is a well taken one.

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Whom do you trust? And in fact I think it's interesting everybody felt that when

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I was rewriting the wealthy barber, I would probably be hurt by the amount of

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information out there, TikTok, YouTube, etc, etc. I think it's

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actually played to my advantage strangely because it's overwhelming and

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people are saying, is there one trusted source, somebody who's been out there for a

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long time, who's not selling a product, who's going to look at this from a

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lot of different angles and bring it across in a manner we can understand? So

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I think all of that noise out there has probably, again, been a big plus

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in terms of the way people have reacted to the book.

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When we return, David and I sit through the world of

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estates and wills. How does a wealthy

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barber simplify what seems to be a very convoluted and emotional

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task?

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Every family has a moment when you look around and you know it's time.

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It's time to get organized. It's time to protect what you've built.

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Time to make sure that people you love are cared for, no matter what

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tomorrow brings. November is make a will month

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in Canada, and more than half of us still do not have a will. And

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when someone dies without one, the law steps in. The law decides how

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your state is divided, who manages it, children involved. A court may

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even decide who becomes their guardian. Bank accounts will be

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frozen, property can be delayed, and a family already coping with loss

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can be pushed in even more stress, confusion, and unnecessary

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cost. A will matters to everyone. A young couple welcoming their

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first child, a blended family, aging parents who want to make things

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easier for their kids. What a will does is it puts your intentions in

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writing so your loved ones are not left to guess. At

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RBC Wealth Management Canada, we help Canadians build

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legacies that honour what matters most. And when you work with one of our

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advisors, your estate plan and your financial plan are integrated.

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And if I can offer you one more piece of advice, consider appointing a

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professional executor with RBC Royal Trust. It removes pressure from

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your family and helps ensure your affairs are managed with experience and care.

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So this November, take the time to create your will. Take the time

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to meet with an RBC wealth advisor and put your wishes to paper.

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Protecting your state and legacy with the will and professional executor.

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Well, that matters to me, to you, and to rbc.

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It was a Thursday afternoon. I drove over. My father was just getting home, high

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school principal. And I told him the idea. And this guy is brilliant, but he

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has no business acumen at all. And he said, dave, I think that's

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really quite a dumb idea. And I knew then I had a winner. That was.

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That was what I thought, okay, I'm on to something. And then I started the

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whole writing process and, you know, never envisioned it, obviously, becoming

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what it did. Today, my very special guest is David Chilton.

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36 years ago, I opened the covers through the book, the wealthy

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Barber and it changed the way I thought about money

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and I still think about it today.

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David, I really appreciated these educational videos

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and that you brought out last year through rbc,

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talking about estates, wills, et cetera. What was your motivation

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for doing that? They were truly educational in nature. You know, they

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were all about the importance of having a will, the importance of powers of attorney.

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How do you choose your executor, what to watch out for on all those

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fronts? We were trying to kind of help Canadians to make better estate planning

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decisions because it is the most ignored area in the personal

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finance sphere. People are very careless there. In fact, 50ish

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percent of Canadians don't even have a will. And powers of attorney are

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often dramatically out of date. And it's amazing now, as we have this aging

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demographic, how often we're seeing this come back and bite people

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and how frequently now this is leading to family conflict and financial

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challenges and everything else. So as you deal with your financial advisor,

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it's not just about investment planning or even savings planning. Estate

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planning has to be a bigger and bigger part of it, especially as I mentioned,

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with the aging population. You also recorded the audio version of the

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book and it just makes me smile because I love how your personality comes through

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it. But what was it like to put David Shelton, who's

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constantly on the move, almost like a caged

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animal, in the studio having to read the words? It took so long for you

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to write. You know me well, because I found that hard. Like, I mean, you've

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been standing still for that long was tricky, but also keeping your energy up the

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whole time. But the funny thing is I did book two. So I

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read book two and it was a relatively straightforward book. It was like most

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books, it wasn't a story format. Then I go into the studio to do book

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three, the Wealthy Barber Updated, and I realized you're reading all the

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characters and therefore there has to be proper intonation, proper

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acting, et cetera. Well, that's a lot trickier. And so there's

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more redos and everything else. Fortunately, we had fantastic production partners. It

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took a long time, but really going over well. In fact, I'd say the

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audiobook is drawing even better reviews to the textbook. So,

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no, that's going over very, very well. We mentioned it earlier. I've seen what you're

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like on stage. I have to believe you love the fact that your

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acting chops were challenged. So as much as you like to consider it a bit

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of a pain, I have a feeling that you quite enjoy that you do so

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much of this pro bono. I mean, you got this great podcast. It seems to

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have no ads. You know, you've decided to do an exclusive deal with

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Indigo to start with. Are you at a point in your life and a stage

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of your life? Have you followed enough of the advice of the wealthy barber that

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your calling now is really just to give back so that

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Canadians can have better peace of mind, sleep a little bit better

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when it comes to their money? Yeah, it is. And I mean, thanks for mentioning

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the podcast. We haven't taken ads in the podcast or done lead gen or

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anything along those lines. I mean, if A and W ever reached out to me,

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you know, I would take them as a sponsor. I love A and W, but

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we don't take any financial companies, et cetera. And I think you are. You are

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trying to get back. I've been very spoiled. I mean, let's be honest, fell into

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this success at a very young age. Everywhere I've gone across the country with all

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the speaking, I've been treated incredibly well. People literally

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invited me into their homes for dinners, et cetera, et cetera, trusting me when they

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asked me the questions. So it has been a good opportunity to give back and

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I've enjoyed it. And then on the distribution front, we did make a rather

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odd decision. This was even before the tariff war, by the way. I decided

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to go with a Canadian only project. It was printed in Quebec. You've got

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Canadian editors, obviously a Canadian writer, and then it's independent

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bookstores and Indigo only. There's no cost, Amazon involved on

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the distribution front. So I think some people look at me go, that's crazy. They

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were some of your biggest accounts. But I love the fact that it's an all

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Canadian project and let's hope it goes well. David, I always end

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with my three takeaways. And the first one is hearing you today

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just reminds me of your humility and your generosity, and I mean that

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as a friend and whose book 36 years ago did change

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my life. And I started paying myself first. So it's lovely to. To hear

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that continue to come through. I think the second thing is your honesty and saying

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how hard it was to write the second book because you. You had a

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bestseller and now you have to improve upon it. I think you have,

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and I really like the fact that you've preserved a lot from the

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past. The storytelling comes back into fold, which

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I really felt was missing in the second book. And the fact that you

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got to act it out just makes me swell. And the third thing is I

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see you as somebody in that barbershop. You know, the interesting thing is you write

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in a way with such authenticity that I could feel like I could be

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sitting, waiting to get my hair cut with all these characters and

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really feel like those conversations are happening. And

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that's tough to do when it comes to things as complex as finance. And you

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once again, do that with such magic and make it

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frictionless and effortless for us to take on. So I hope

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there's people out there that are going to listen or read your book, and

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it'll have the same impact on them as it did on me

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many years ago. Young, just trying to save a few dollars.

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You made it important. You made it matter. Well, thank you. And it's a

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real compliment to hear that you can kind of see the barbershop and see the

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characters. That's the ultimate dream of the writer. It's ironic, by the way, that I've

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written a book set in a barbershop. I've had the exact same hairstyle since I

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was in grade one. I'm in year 59 of this

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hairstyle. I did grow it longer in high school, but I've never changed it. So,

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yeah, I'm not exactly a hair specialist, that's for sure.

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Once again, a special thanks to RBC for supporting chatter that matters.

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It's Tony Chapman. Thanks for listening, and let's chat soon.