1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:04,100 Avoiding ministry silos today on the church revitalization 2 00:00:04,319 --> 00:00:08,080 podcast. Hello, and welcome 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,519 to the church revitalization podcast brought to you by the 4 00:00:11,519 --> 00:00:15,075 Malthus Group team, where each week we tackle important, 5 00:00:15,455 --> 00:00:18,995 actionable topics to help churches thrive. And now, 6 00:00:19,135 --> 00:00:22,355 here's your hosts, Scott Ball and A.J. Mathieu. 7 00:00:25,230 --> 00:00:28,910 Welcome to the Church Revitalization Podcast. My name is Scott Ball. I'm joined 8 00:00:28,910 --> 00:00:31,570 by my friend and co host A.J. Mathieu. 9 00:00:32,670 --> 00:00:36,350 Alright. Here we are. Let's talk about 10 00:00:36,590 --> 00:00:40,215 you know, ministry silos is a phrase that 11 00:00:40,215 --> 00:00:43,755 we hear a lot when we talk to churches 12 00:00:44,215 --> 00:00:47,895 and not just big churches, but, you know, churches of all sizes have 13 00:00:47,895 --> 00:00:51,675 this problem of, ministries 14 00:00:51,815 --> 00:00:55,289 working in isolation. And and so you get this 15 00:00:55,289 --> 00:00:59,050 silo effect in ministry, but I don't know in 16 00:00:59,050 --> 00:01:02,649 274 episodes of the podcast if 17 00:01:02,649 --> 00:01:05,630 we've ever done an an episode on 18 00:01:06,265 --> 00:01:10,104 specifically avoiding ministry silos. Not if I can't remember 19 00:01:10,104 --> 00:01:13,945 it, our listeners can't either. True. Yeah. 20 00:01:13,945 --> 00:01:17,384 That's true. Yeah. I don't maybe not. I'm sure I think it's come up in 21 00:01:17,384 --> 00:01:21,060 various contexts because it it is an issue, and, it 22 00:01:21,140 --> 00:01:24,600 it affects a lot of things, and it reveals itself in different ways. 23 00:01:25,140 --> 00:01:28,820 Yeah. Probably a a majority 24 00:01:28,820 --> 00:01:32,579 of the churches that I work with either use the term. They're, like, familiar 25 00:01:32,579 --> 00:01:36,415 with the term, know they've got it going on, or not familiar 26 00:01:36,415 --> 00:01:39,795 with the term, but describe it. They have the same felt issue, 27 00:01:40,735 --> 00:01:44,495 but but don't use that phrase, ministry silos, but then they 28 00:01:44,495 --> 00:01:48,115 describe it to a t. Yeah. We have a question in the church ministry analysis 29 00:01:48,175 --> 00:01:51,790 that we do, with churches that's kind of on this topic. 30 00:01:51,790 --> 00:01:54,610 Like, is it clear how all the ministries work together? 31 00:01:55,230 --> 00:01:58,770 And very often that is one of the lowest scoring 32 00:01:59,470 --> 00:02:03,245 questions. And we get comments there say, no. 33 00:02:03,245 --> 00:02:06,925 Our ministries don't work together at all. You know, they there's a lot of 34 00:02:06,925 --> 00:02:10,685 competition or they're really siloed from one another. They don't 35 00:02:10,685 --> 00:02:14,525 really integrate. They don't really collaborate. So, this is a 36 00:02:14,525 --> 00:02:18,090 problem. And and so that's why we wanna be chatting about it today. Yeah. Yeah. 37 00:02:18,090 --> 00:02:21,290 And it's just we're just kinda breaking this down into 2 halves. We're gonna talk 38 00:02:21,290 --> 00:02:24,489 first about kind of identifying it. If you're not familiar with the term or if 39 00:02:24,489 --> 00:02:27,849 you're not sure if this is your church, we're gonna talk about root causes of 40 00:02:27,849 --> 00:02:31,209 it? The symptoms and the causes. Yeah. And then we're gonna talk about, 41 00:02:31,610 --> 00:02:35,175 yeah, what what's what's a better way of of handling our ministries? 42 00:02:35,235 --> 00:02:39,075 What's the solution? Yep. Alright. So let's start talking 43 00:02:39,075 --> 00:02:42,675 about then, identifying silos. What does it look 44 00:02:42,675 --> 00:02:46,355 like? Because you can become, I think, maybe a little nose blind or just a 45 00:02:46,355 --> 00:02:50,189 little situationally blind to it. Not you just get into a 46 00:02:50,189 --> 00:02:54,030 routine and you don't necessarily step back and go, oh, we have ministry 47 00:02:54,030 --> 00:02:57,549 silos. You know? It just becomes so normal that you don't you don't even see 48 00:02:57,549 --> 00:03:01,170 it anymore. Mhmm. Yeah. You know, I mean, my personal 49 00:03:01,230 --> 00:03:04,765 experience as a church member and a 50 00:03:04,765 --> 00:03:08,605 parent of students is where I have this 51 00:03:08,605 --> 00:03:12,364 is what bugs me the most. And over the last 25 years, you know, spent 52 00:03:12,364 --> 00:03:15,985 time in in just 2 different pretty large churches. 53 00:03:16,444 --> 00:03:19,400 But my kids needing to be somewhere, 54 00:03:19,940 --> 00:03:23,459 perhaps at the same time I needed to be somewhere, like some 55 00:03:23,459 --> 00:03:27,159 adult programming that starts at the same time as children's 56 00:03:27,220 --> 00:03:30,675 or youth or student programming in 57 00:03:30,675 --> 00:03:34,435 locations that would be impossible to happen. And 58 00:03:34,435 --> 00:03:37,735 that is just one way. These calendar conflicts and logistical 59 00:03:37,955 --> 00:03:41,795 conflicts in which it is obvious the left hand does not know what 60 00:03:41,795 --> 00:03:45,489 the right hand is doing. And and, you 61 00:03:45,489 --> 00:03:49,010 know, I know a bunch of you are amening right now because you're feeling that 62 00:03:49,010 --> 00:03:52,849 too, in your own churches. Like, yeah, what how do we end up this 63 00:03:52,849 --> 00:03:56,694 way? We're asking people to be in 2 different places at the same time or 64 00:03:56,694 --> 00:04:00,535 to make choices, forcing discipleship choices that we shouldn't have 65 00:04:00,535 --> 00:04:04,215 to make. But this is this is a big one for me, Scott, 66 00:04:04,775 --> 00:04:08,555 out of out of many symptoms that, your church might be siloed. 67 00:04:09,610 --> 00:04:13,450 Yeah. I think these calendar conflicts can come to in in terms of, 68 00:04:14,730 --> 00:04:18,190 2 different ministries making a major promotional 69 00:04:18,410 --> 00:04:21,870 pull push at the same time, you know, to 70 00:04:22,465 --> 00:04:26,225 sort of major initiatives that are trying to compete 71 00:04:26,225 --> 00:04:29,925 for that attention. And what ends up happening is they 72 00:04:30,145 --> 00:04:33,905 split that attention or or almost cancel each 73 00:04:33,905 --> 00:04:37,505 other out, and so neither group feels like they got the attention that they deserved. 74 00:04:37,505 --> 00:04:41,210 So trying to coordinate together so that you're not making 75 00:04:41,210 --> 00:04:44,810 a major push as best you can. You can't always avoid that, and you can't 76 00:04:44,810 --> 00:04:48,650 always avoid the calendar conflicts either. But even doing simple 77 00:04:48,650 --> 00:04:52,345 things like, you know, good good staff meetings. We're 78 00:04:52,345 --> 00:04:56,105 gonna know what's coming up next week so you can strategize those things as 79 00:04:56,105 --> 00:04:59,705 best you can. I think another common symptom of ministry silos 80 00:04:59,705 --> 00:05:03,305 is, resource competition. You know, there's 81 00:05:03,305 --> 00:05:07,039 only so much pie. There's only so much budget. There's only whether 82 00:05:07,039 --> 00:05:10,659 whether you're talking about leadership resource or 83 00:05:11,039 --> 00:05:14,719 financial resource or attention resource, whatever it is, 84 00:05:16,474 --> 00:05:20,095 you know, you do wanna, in general, maybe have an abundance mindset, 85 00:05:20,155 --> 00:05:23,835 but the reality is there is only so many dollars. I can I 86 00:05:23,835 --> 00:05:27,354 was telling you this story off air, A.J., but, 87 00:05:28,474 --> 00:05:32,120 I was on staff in a fairly large church and, 88 00:05:33,060 --> 00:05:36,820 this was, gosh, probably almost 20 years 89 00:05:36,820 --> 00:05:40,580 ago at this point? But we had, a budget 90 00:05:40,580 --> 00:05:44,360 surplus, 1 year of 91 00:05:44,900 --> 00:05:48,705 a not in, you know, inconsequential amount of money. I want to 92 00:05:48,705 --> 00:05:51,365 guess it was I want to say it was maybe in the neighborhood of $100,000. 93 00:05:52,785 --> 00:05:56,625 It's a lot of extra cash at the end of the day. And we 94 00:05:56,625 --> 00:06:00,210 were asked to come to a meeting with some proposals of what we thought the 95 00:06:00,210 --> 00:06:03,970 church ought to do with this extra money. You could make it for something 96 00:06:03,970 --> 00:06:07,090 for your ministry, or you could just make some general proposal of what you thought 97 00:06:07,090 --> 00:06:09,970 the church ought to do with the money. This is a staff meeting, staff ministry 98 00:06:09,970 --> 00:06:12,950 leader. Staff meeting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We have staff. Just the staff. 99 00:06:13,664 --> 00:06:17,345 And, and so, you know, we we kind of put our stuff all together. I 100 00:06:17,345 --> 00:06:21,104 don't even remember what I had proposed, because again, 101 00:06:21,104 --> 00:06:24,065 this is a long time ago. But, I we came into the meeting, and at 102 00:06:24,065 --> 00:06:27,750 the beginning of the meeting, the senior pastor said, okay, Just so 103 00:06:27,750 --> 00:06:31,270 you know, half this money is now going towards 104 00:06:31,270 --> 00:06:34,949 buying new risers, like the kind of risers you would 105 00:06:34,949 --> 00:06:38,789 only use on Christmas and Easter, like, for a, like, 106 00:06:38,789 --> 00:06:42,535 a cantata or a production of some kind. They're not the ones that are out 107 00:06:42,535 --> 00:06:46,055 all the time, but and we even had ones, but they were just getting a 108 00:06:46,055 --> 00:06:49,335 little older or whatever. And but I'm thinking, well, yeah, they're getting a little older, 109 00:06:49,335 --> 00:06:53,175 but who cares? They're only out twice a year. Anyways, but it was 110 00:06:53,175 --> 00:06:56,990 gonna cost $50 for the new ones. And, and so 111 00:06:56,990 --> 00:07:00,750 the pastor just said, well, we're buying those. And, the worship 112 00:07:00,750 --> 00:07:04,430 guy, I still to this day, I don't know. How did he, he, he 113 00:07:04,430 --> 00:07:08,050 managed to get a meeting before the meeting to get his thing in. And 114 00:07:08,270 --> 00:07:11,655 what did he say? Like what boot did he have to 115 00:07:11,655 --> 00:07:15,495 lick to, to, to get that 50 grand claimed before 116 00:07:15,495 --> 00:07:19,094 the meeting even started? And so, yeah, I don't even 117 00:07:19,094 --> 00:07:22,775 remember what I had proposed, but can I just tell you, A.J., I 118 00:07:22,775 --> 00:07:26,510 had gone into that meeting thinking we were gonna collaborate and work together 119 00:07:26,510 --> 00:07:30,190 and make a plan for how we were going to steward these 120 00:07:30,190 --> 00:07:33,650 resources that the Lord had blessed us with? And this was like 121 00:07:33,870 --> 00:07:37,630 surplus after we had put money away towards rainy day fund. Like this 122 00:07:37,630 --> 00:07:40,764 was like legit capital expenditure money 123 00:07:41,225 --> 00:07:45,065 that we didn't have a plan for. And I thought we were going to 124 00:07:45,065 --> 00:07:48,604 collaborate on that and to come in there and go 125 00:07:48,905 --> 00:07:52,440 now half of it's gone. It was so deflating as a 126 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,980 staff person. And do you think that 127 00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:00,060 that helped or hurt the silo situation among our staff? 128 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,900 That sounds like an aggravating circumstance. Now with, 129 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,825 half of what's left, everybody now is clamoring for. 130 00:08:08,285 --> 00:08:11,725 Yeah. That's right. I'm like, oh, this is dog eat dog. You know? This isn't 131 00:08:11,725 --> 00:08:15,505 a team. This is every man for himself. You know? So, 132 00:08:16,525 --> 00:08:19,025 we also see information hoarding. 133 00:08:20,260 --> 00:08:23,620 A.J., you can expound on this, but I we we interact with a lot of 134 00:08:23,620 --> 00:08:27,140 churches, and I I think a lot of it's innocent. I don't think it's even 135 00:08:27,140 --> 00:08:30,920 intentional, but, you know, you've got the youth ministry 136 00:08:31,220 --> 00:08:34,975 has their own, social media or, 137 00:08:34,975 --> 00:08:38,815 like, their own texting service that they have. That's not one 138 00:08:38,815 --> 00:08:42,637 that the whole church uses that's sort of subdivided, but it's, you know, or, 139 00:08:42,637 --> 00:08:46,100 you know, again, or social media accounts or, you 140 00:08:46,100 --> 00:08:49,940 know, one ministry is using Dropbox, the other one's using Google 141 00:08:49,940 --> 00:08:53,779 Drive. You know, the worship ministry is using Planning Center, but 142 00:08:53,779 --> 00:08:57,459 the rest of the church is on Shelby. Like, there there's all kinds of things 143 00:08:57,459 --> 00:09:01,055 like this where Yeah. I don't even know that it's 144 00:09:01,055 --> 00:09:04,895 malicious, but it it it happens, and it causes problems. Yeah. Usually, 145 00:09:04,895 --> 00:09:08,575 it's not. Yeah. Well, you know, my son just went to a weekend winter 146 00:09:08,575 --> 00:09:12,095 camp with our student ministry this weekend. I had to install 2 new apps on 147 00:09:12,095 --> 00:09:15,610 my phone to be able to communicate with the leaders and 148 00:09:15,610 --> 00:09:19,130 get pictures for the weekend. So, you know, I 149 00:09:19,130 --> 00:09:22,890 mean, why? Why? Why? You know? Can't or do we 150 00:09:22,890 --> 00:09:26,490 already have things we can be using for this? But, yeah. They 151 00:09:26,650 --> 00:09:30,335 you know? These ministries, they just kinda spin up whatever they whatever they wanna do 152 00:09:30,335 --> 00:09:34,095 next, and it's just not part of maybe, of a 153 00:09:34,095 --> 00:09:37,615 more communicative plan, unified 154 00:09:37,615 --> 00:09:41,279 plan. So Yeah. Yeah. And then we also see 155 00:09:41,279 --> 00:09:45,040 duplicate programs. I'm about I'm gonna call on 156 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,639 the carpet women's ministries. It's 157 00:09:48,639 --> 00:09:52,480 long overdue. I'll do it because you can't. I 158 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,305 can't. No. I I mean, don't I don't mean 159 00:09:56,305 --> 00:09:59,825 you. I mean, listener. Okay. Listener can't. The 160 00:09:59,825 --> 00:10:03,665 pastor listening probably is not at liberty to call on the 161 00:10:03,665 --> 00:10:07,025 carpet their their churches, women's 162 00:10:07,025 --> 00:10:10,840 ministry. But are you probably, you probably have, I mean, AIG, how 163 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,200 often do we walk into a church and there's a whole discipleship plan and 164 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:18,040 then often its own little bubble, like can't 165 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,555 be touched. No one mess with women's 166 00:10:21,555 --> 00:10:25,395 ministry. They got their own bible studies. You know? They got 167 00:10:25,395 --> 00:10:28,995 they got a little tea. You know? Yeah. Not in never 168 00:10:28,995 --> 00:10:32,755 malicious, always with the best of intentions. And I think I'm not gonna say never 169 00:10:32,755 --> 00:10:34,615 malicious. I'm gonna say rarely malicious. 170 00:10:36,515 --> 00:10:40,020 Yes. Often territorial, often highly protected. 171 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,080 Very territorial. Mhmm. Yeah. May or may not be 172 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,680 malicious. But I I 173 00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:51,285 have I have met the militant women's ministry leader, but 174 00:10:51,524 --> 00:10:55,285 rarely the militant men's ministry leader. There often is no men's 175 00:10:55,285 --> 00:10:58,964 ministry leader. True. Yeah. Actually, they're they're only doing it 176 00:10:58,964 --> 00:11:02,644 because nobody else will do it. Fun fact. The 177 00:11:02,644 --> 00:11:06,430 number one video of ours on YouTube, I think, is how to 178 00:11:06,430 --> 00:11:10,269 run a men's ministry in church. Like, that's how yeah. It's certainly in the top 179 00:11:10,269 --> 00:11:14,110 3. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a mystery. No one knows how to 180 00:11:14,110 --> 00:11:17,550 run a men's ministry because most of the time, none of the men wanna be 181 00:11:17,550 --> 00:11:20,529 there. Yeah. We do. Go watch that video. I'm just kidding. 182 00:11:21,070 --> 00:11:24,454 Yeah. Yeah. The answer is what do what do we do with the guys while 183 00:11:24,454 --> 00:11:27,115 the women are doing 10 other things? So 184 00:11:28,295 --> 00:11:32,055 that's the Just do just do just do a prayer breakfast once a 185 00:11:32,055 --> 00:11:35,860 month. That always works. Okay. But anyway, so 186 00:11:35,860 --> 00:11:39,540 these are some, some symptoms, you know, that you got the calendar conflicts, you 187 00:11:39,540 --> 00:11:43,160 have this resource competition, you have information hoarding, 188 00:11:43,860 --> 00:11:47,480 or, or even just information siloing different random 189 00:11:47,540 --> 00:11:50,895 different systems being used by different ministries and duplicate 190 00:11:50,955 --> 00:11:54,555 programs. And so here's here's 191 00:11:54,555 --> 00:11:57,775 why they form. I think the reason why they form, 192 00:11:57,915 --> 00:12:00,815 A.J., is 193 00:12:02,635 --> 00:12:05,490 laziness. I think that's probably number 1 194 00:12:06,030 --> 00:12:09,870 is you didn't take the time to know that some other 195 00:12:10,670 --> 00:12:14,370 that the rest of the church already has a texting 196 00:12:14,430 --> 00:12:18,030 system. And rather than bother trying to figure that one out 197 00:12:18,030 --> 00:12:21,305 or to get added or onboarded or whatever. 198 00:12:22,165 --> 00:12:25,785 You just went and created your own. 199 00:12:26,404 --> 00:12:30,245 Or Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, you didn't wanna work through the 200 00:12:30,245 --> 00:12:33,945 proper channels. You didn't wanna take the time or ignorance. 201 00:12:34,005 --> 00:12:37,699 I mean, that'd be another that'd be another issue. It's just like lack of 202 00:12:37,699 --> 00:12:41,300 communication. You didn't know that there was a texting system, so 203 00:12:41,300 --> 00:12:45,000 you rather than taking the time to ask, you just did it yourself. 204 00:12:45,699 --> 00:12:49,459 That's almost like to me, I think that's like second level down on 205 00:12:49,459 --> 00:12:53,155 the primary plane Because the reason they don't know is 206 00:12:53,155 --> 00:12:56,995 because, again, it's like circular logic. Because they're siloed, they don't 207 00:12:56,995 --> 00:12:59,635 know what's going on over here. The reason they don't know what's going on over 208 00:12:59,635 --> 00:13:03,280 here is because the upper level leadership is 209 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,880 not in place. There is no system. There's no 210 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,640 organization for knowing what are we doing together as a church, 211 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,420 which is that's our primary solution to siloed ministries 212 00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:18,385 is kinda unified ministries. What unifies ministries? Mission 213 00:13:18,385 --> 00:13:22,144 and vision first. And then a leadership pipeline second. 214 00:13:22,144 --> 00:13:25,665 We'll we'll get into the details. Yeah. Yeah. So a lack of 215 00:13:25,665 --> 00:13:29,264 accountability for definitely. I think that you might be right. I think that's 216 00:13:29,264 --> 00:13:33,080 probably number 1 on the list. It's just, you know, if you as a 217 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,860 ministry leader don't know who you are accountable 218 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,600 to, and 219 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,275 maybe even worse than that and often happens is you do 220 00:13:44,275 --> 00:13:47,495 know who you're accountable to, but that person never holds you accountable. 221 00:13:47,795 --> 00:13:51,555 Yeah. There's you don't have any interaction. To anybody. Yeah. You're not not 222 00:13:51,555 --> 00:13:55,395 really accountable. You're not really accountable. Yeah. And so you 223 00:13:55,395 --> 00:13:58,755 you just you just do you've never been 224 00:13:58,755 --> 00:14:02,560 given boundaries, positive or like, you you 225 00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:05,600 don't know. You just you just do stuff. And so you you're trying to run 226 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,440 the ministry because you were told that you're in charge, but you don't really know 227 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,185 what you're doing, and you don't know what you should should and should, you know, 228 00:14:12,185 --> 00:14:15,625 what resources are, aren't available to you outside of maybe what your budget is to 229 00:14:15,625 --> 00:14:19,385 spend. And, and so you just were like, well, I'm just gonna go. I'm 230 00:14:19,385 --> 00:14:22,524 just gonna do my own thing. And then you get mad. 231 00:14:23,464 --> 00:14:27,160 You know, when, when when things aren't communicated or aren't announced, or you can't get 232 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,920 something in the bulletin or whatever. But you were never told, 233 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,680 like, how do things get put in the bulletin? Who decides, you know, 234 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,120 is there a, an actual plan for that? Or is it just 235 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,905 who who's, you know, on the secretary's good side, 236 00:14:41,905 --> 00:14:45,425 who the the whoever makes the bullet? Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Right. 237 00:14:45,425 --> 00:14:49,025 Just maybe there is no system. Maybe it isn't that 238 00:14:49,025 --> 00:14:51,525 isn't communicated. There just isn't one. Yeah. 239 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,080 Yeah. So I mean, you know, going back to these foundational things of 240 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,840 mission and vision, and those are in kind of 2 different lanes. 241 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,820 I mean, establishing mission in the church 242 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:07,220 is necessary and good based on the great commission, especially. 243 00:15:07,895 --> 00:15:11,175 But that, still, we have to have a system in place to even communicate that 244 00:15:11,175 --> 00:15:14,455 to our team, to all of our ministry leaders. One of the big questions that 245 00:15:14,455 --> 00:15:17,755 we get frequently going through our strategic 246 00:15:17,895 --> 00:15:21,710 envisioning, strategic planning process, is we establish mission 247 00:15:21,710 --> 00:15:25,390 for the church, and then the ministry leaders are like, so we need to do 248 00:15:25,390 --> 00:15:29,230 that then? We need to create a mission statement for our ministry? And that's 249 00:15:29,230 --> 00:15:33,010 a hard no. That that just feeds into 250 00:15:33,070 --> 00:15:36,605 siloed ministries. The mission of the church is the mission of 251 00:15:36,605 --> 00:15:39,584 the church, not not some 252 00:15:39,964 --> 00:15:43,425 ethereal thing outside of actual functional 253 00:15:43,485 --> 00:15:47,165 ministry. It is that is what unifies us. We're all doing this 254 00:15:47,165 --> 00:15:50,660 together, but then getting more specific is when we start talking 255 00:15:50,660 --> 00:15:54,260 vision. Like, what what are the actual things that we're gonna be 256 00:15:54,260 --> 00:15:57,940 working towards together? So these two elements are 257 00:15:57,940 --> 00:16:01,380 primary in unifying all across all ministries of the 258 00:16:01,380 --> 00:16:04,615 church and beginning to defeat the siloed mentality. 259 00:16:05,635 --> 00:16:09,095 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let's dive into this solution a little bit more. 260 00:16:09,955 --> 00:16:12,855 It it it starts, as you said, with 261 00:16:13,955 --> 00:16:17,769 unified direction, and, you know, I've I've worked with 262 00:16:17,769 --> 00:16:21,209 a lot of churches that the it's usually the youth 263 00:16:21,209 --> 00:16:24,670 ministry, you know, because they got some young gun in there who 264 00:16:25,050 --> 00:16:28,810 has their own purpose statement or mission statement. They've got their own vision or 265 00:16:28,810 --> 00:16:32,525 their own systems and kind of 266 00:16:32,525 --> 00:16:36,365 corralling those guys and gals and going, no, we're going to 267 00:16:36,365 --> 00:16:40,065 have a church mission statement and you're going to fall under that. 268 00:16:40,525 --> 00:16:43,985 And, and it goes beyond that to shared systems 269 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:50,000 and good communication, and holding 270 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,700 people accountable. You also need to be able to say 271 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,680 no to things when you have answers to 272 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:01,335 questions, when stuff comes up. I do think that a lot of 273 00:17:01,335 --> 00:17:05,015 times, you know, we're afraid of saying no 274 00:17:05,015 --> 00:17:08,775 to a leader and losing the volunteer. So 275 00:17:08,775 --> 00:17:12,234 we just let them do whatever they want because we're afraid of losing that volunteer. 276 00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:16,280 But that's not really good because it just contributes to these silos, and no one 277 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:20,119 really knows. The number of times we go into a 278 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,079 church for strategic envisioning, A.J., and, 279 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,445 we're we're kind of mapping out all the ministries. And how 280 00:17:28,605 --> 00:17:32,205 have you ever had this situation? I'm sure you have. Where they just start asking 281 00:17:32,205 --> 00:17:35,965 around the room. Hey. Does anybody know what this thing is? What is 282 00:17:35,965 --> 00:17:39,805 this ministry? What does it do? You know, they're supposed to be evaluating it, 283 00:17:39,805 --> 00:17:43,570 but no one in the room even knows what it is. Yeah. You know, 284 00:17:43,570 --> 00:17:47,169 usually the pastor will go, oh, oh, oh, Jim Smith 285 00:17:47,169 --> 00:17:50,389 runs that ministry. He's been doing it for 15 years. 286 00:17:51,330 --> 00:17:54,929 And then normally what comes after that sentence, A.J. is we're just, we're not gonna 287 00:17:54,929 --> 00:17:58,434 touch it. You know, Jim's been doing that for 15 years. He does his thing. 288 00:17:58,575 --> 00:18:02,174 Mhmm. We let him do what he wants to do. We're not gonna tell 289 00:18:02,174 --> 00:18:05,855 him no. And I'm like, what? What is going 290 00:18:05,855 --> 00:18:09,570 on? This is crazy. Totally. Yeah. I mean 291 00:18:09,810 --> 00:18:13,250 and yeah. So kinda think about how does that play out? I mean, I 292 00:18:13,250 --> 00:18:16,930 just just mentioned having a leadership pipeline in process for this. 293 00:18:16,930 --> 00:18:20,310 So, yeah, when this there's a thing that somebody's 294 00:18:20,450 --> 00:18:24,105 leading, but and we're dealing with a room full of leaders, 295 00:18:24,165 --> 00:18:27,845 ministry leaders in the church. And so what what is happening 296 00:18:27,845 --> 00:18:31,365 here is we've got the highest level leaders in the church, and 297 00:18:31,365 --> 00:18:35,205 not one of them has oversight responsibility over 298 00:18:35,205 --> 00:18:38,820 that individual that's leading another ministry. So that That's right. 299 00:18:39,020 --> 00:18:42,780 That person, that outlier, isn't at the level that they should have 300 00:18:42,780 --> 00:18:46,540 been included in this strategic planning work, and none of the people 301 00:18:46,540 --> 00:18:49,900 that should be included have oversight over that individual. This is a 302 00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:53,345 broken area in the church. That's right. 303 00:18:54,125 --> 00:18:57,905 And so what happens is we create these rogue ministries 304 00:18:58,525 --> 00:19:02,205 unintentionally. And but what else are they supposed to do? If you if you 305 00:19:02,205 --> 00:19:05,745 don't have a clear pipeline and a clear structure 306 00:19:05,805 --> 00:19:08,880 where every ministry leader 307 00:19:09,580 --> 00:19:13,260 knows to whom they are accountable. And that that should cover a 308 00:19:13,260 --> 00:19:17,100 100% of people in the church. Even your senior level 309 00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:20,860 board, they are accountable to one another, at least. I mean, there 310 00:19:20,860 --> 00:19:24,635 is not one person, not one volunteer, not one 311 00:19:24,635 --> 00:19:28,475 staff person in your church who doesn't have another person 312 00:19:28,475 --> 00:19:32,155 to whom they are accountable. But what happens is that 313 00:19:32,155 --> 00:19:35,915 isn't clearly mapped out, and so you have it is why we 314 00:19:35,915 --> 00:19:39,660 have these problems, A.J., with women's ministry. You you 315 00:19:39,660 --> 00:19:43,500 can have, I'm not trying to call out 316 00:19:43,660 --> 00:19:46,540 well, I kind of am calling out women's ministry. They do a lot of good 317 00:19:46,540 --> 00:19:49,420 work, so I'm not calling them out in that sense. But I'm calling them out 318 00:19:49,420 --> 00:19:52,480 in the sense that they really do operate almost like their own 319 00:19:53,125 --> 00:19:56,424 subsidiary of the church, usually totally insulated 320 00:19:56,565 --> 00:20:00,405 from everything. And it's not 321 00:20:00,485 --> 00:20:03,705 I don't think that's I really don't think that's good. I don't think that's healthy, 322 00:20:04,980 --> 00:20:08,580 for them to essentially function almost like a parachurch organization within the 323 00:20:08,580 --> 00:20:12,179 within the church itself. Yeah. Right. Right. And we've even you know, you and I, 324 00:20:12,179 --> 00:20:15,780 I know, have leaned more into this in in a lot of the 325 00:20:15,780 --> 00:20:19,540 last year whenever we're working with churches is we we don't even let anybody 326 00:20:19,540 --> 00:20:23,355 get away with saying women's ministry and leaving 327 00:20:23,355 --> 00:20:25,595 it that. You know, we work we work with post it notes. We write down 328 00:20:25,595 --> 00:20:28,235 ministries, and there's a post it note that says women's ministry on it. We don't 329 00:20:28,235 --> 00:20:31,615 let anybody get away with that anymore because it's not one thing. It's always 330 00:20:31,995 --> 00:20:35,835 6 or more things. And and sometimes less frequently, but still sometimes on the 331 00:20:35,835 --> 00:20:39,430 men's ministry side. But, you know, I mean, I call these ministry buckets. 332 00:20:39,650 --> 00:20:43,490 It's a it's a bucket with a name on it, but inside the bucket is 333 00:20:43,490 --> 00:20:47,330 packed all kinds of other things. And if we don't unpack those things, we 334 00:20:47,330 --> 00:20:50,835 don't really have a clear view of what's happening in the church. And Yeah. Sure. 335 00:20:51,075 --> 00:20:54,755 You know, what ministries are we really doing? Who is affected by these? Who's leading 336 00:20:54,755 --> 00:20:58,434 them? Who are they accountable to? If in if anyone, are they effective 337 00:20:58,434 --> 00:21:02,115 ministries? So, so, yeah, we you you can't 338 00:21:02,115 --> 00:21:05,780 hide that anymore. If you're dealing with the Malvers Group, you're not 339 00:21:05,940 --> 00:21:09,780 there's no hiding spots for ministries anymore. Yeah. And and 340 00:21:09,860 --> 00:21:13,400 yeah. And and it would be good. So, you know, you could have bible studies. 341 00:21:14,419 --> 00:21:17,995 Those should be grouped together with all of the other bible studies. You know, you 342 00:21:17,995 --> 00:21:21,294 could have these fellowship events. Well, those should be maybe 343 00:21:21,995 --> 00:21:25,674 clustered together with all of the other fellowship events. It's another type of a 344 00:21:25,674 --> 00:21:28,735 fellowship event rather than it being it's this own, 345 00:21:29,940 --> 00:21:33,299 you know, again, sort of para church organization within the church 346 00:21:33,299 --> 00:21:36,980 itself. It's not good. So, alright. So 347 00:21:36,980 --> 00:21:40,740 when it comes to the solution, so far we have said we need 348 00:21:40,740 --> 00:21:44,419 a clear mission and vision that's shared. We need language shared 349 00:21:44,419 --> 00:21:48,015 language around that. We've said we need clear structure, 350 00:21:48,155 --> 00:21:51,835 so we need to know who is accountable to whom, and 351 00:21:51,835 --> 00:21:55,295 there shouldn't be anybody who doesn't know to whom they are accountable. 352 00:21:55,995 --> 00:21:58,975 I'd also just say shared systems. 353 00:21:59,515 --> 00:22:03,059 So, you know, understanding 354 00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:06,340 how budget things get worked out, understanding 355 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,460 communication systems, inter 356 00:22:10,559 --> 00:22:13,780 ministry communication systems, as well as external communication 357 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,625 systems, and then having good systems 358 00:22:17,845 --> 00:22:21,685 meetings themselves are a system. So how often do we meet and when do 359 00:22:21,685 --> 00:22:24,665 we meet and what do those meetings look like and how are they structured? And 360 00:22:25,045 --> 00:22:28,885 we can't tell you, we can't be prescriptive on that, in 361 00:22:28,885 --> 00:22:32,510 a general sense because it's gonna depend, you know, if it's a 362 00:22:32,510 --> 00:22:36,350 large church with multi staff, you know, we're gonna drill down on those staff 363 00:22:36,350 --> 00:22:40,110 meetings. If it's a smaller church where it's just a 364 00:22:40,110 --> 00:22:43,805 solo pastor type situation, that's gonna probably look a little bit 365 00:22:43,805 --> 00:22:47,325 different. But having a good meeting system culture 366 00:22:47,325 --> 00:22:51,165 where you have the ability to communicate and propagate things this is 367 00:22:51,165 --> 00:22:54,625 why we have such a prescriptive approach on the strategic 368 00:22:54,685 --> 00:22:58,510 envisioning process for the implementation meetings, because 369 00:22:58,510 --> 00:23:02,210 we know that if we don't get the communication right in the implementation process, 370 00:23:03,470 --> 00:23:06,450 it's just not gonna work. Yeah. The wheels fall off. 371 00:23:07,309 --> 00:23:11,154 Yeah. Totally. And then you wonder, like, oh, did we waste our 372 00:23:11,154 --> 00:23:14,515 time? Did we waste our money? Mhmm. And to some degree, the answer to that 373 00:23:14,515 --> 00:23:18,355 is yes. I mean, if we if we can't if we can't implement stuff, 374 00:23:18,355 --> 00:23:21,395 then what does it matter that we developed a new mission statement if we can't 375 00:23:21,395 --> 00:23:24,940 actually live it out? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. 376 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,780 Yep. Yeah. Planning planning, communication. 377 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,700 These are just hallmarks of of a good, 378 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,215 approach in a healthy church That everybody is just aware of 379 00:23:37,215 --> 00:23:40,895 what everybody else is doing. We know we know what 380 00:23:40,895 --> 00:23:44,735 our major goals are. We know what our specific goals are at the 381 00:23:44,735 --> 00:23:48,015 ministry level and at the volunteer level. And, 382 00:23:48,735 --> 00:23:52,390 and we're able to hold each other accountable. We're able to 383 00:23:52,390 --> 00:23:55,450 evaluate our effectiveness. We're able to make, 384 00:23:56,150 --> 00:23:59,610 strategic and tactical changes along the way 385 00:23:59,670 --> 00:24:03,450 that help enhance the overall success of the church. 386 00:24:04,845 --> 00:24:08,605 Yeah. I mean, can't stress enough, you know, the 387 00:24:08,605 --> 00:24:11,985 strategic planning process and the leadership pipeline structure, 388 00:24:12,925 --> 00:24:16,365 being key to, eliminating siloed 389 00:24:16,365 --> 00:24:19,505 ministries and finding overall church health and success. 390 00:24:20,260 --> 00:24:24,020 Yeah. Which is a great segue to kind of an action step that that you 391 00:24:24,020 --> 00:24:27,780 can take if you're listening to this. You still have you 392 00:24:27,780 --> 00:24:31,540 still have access to the Church Check-up Challenge between now and the end of 393 00:24:31,540 --> 00:24:35,155 the month of January when that's when this is being released. 394 00:24:35,615 --> 00:24:39,455 Be released on the, what, the 22nd this episode 395 00:24:39,455 --> 00:24:43,215 will. So you got, yeah, 9 days left. Got a 396 00:24:43,215 --> 00:24:46,990 little bit of time. And in the Church Check-up Challenge, we actually 397 00:24:46,990 --> 00:24:50,830 guide you through multiple audits to help you figure out, are we clear on our 398 00:24:50,830 --> 00:24:54,130 mission language? Are we clear on our vision language? Are we clear 399 00:24:54,670 --> 00:24:58,510 on how our ministries are connected to one another? Are we clear on how 400 00:24:58,510 --> 00:25:02,045 our leadership systems work? So all of this stuff is stuff that we go through. 401 00:25:02,825 --> 00:25:06,425 I I made this comment, I think, either last week or the week before. I 402 00:25:06,425 --> 00:25:09,865 almost feel a little bit like we give a ton away in terms of the 403 00:25:09,865 --> 00:25:13,669 strategic envisioning components, not the workshops. It's it'd be a 404 00:25:13,669 --> 00:25:17,350 lot to get done in 7 days, but, this really will 405 00:25:17,350 --> 00:25:21,130 help you both figure out, do we have silos and also 406 00:25:22,070 --> 00:25:25,910 help you think through, where we need to put in some work 407 00:25:25,910 --> 00:25:29,605 to address these silos if you have them. So 408 00:25:29,605 --> 00:25:33,445 it's totally free. No no credit card required. Go 409 00:25:33,445 --> 00:25:37,205 to malphursgroup.com/challenge. To sign 410 00:25:37,205 --> 00:25:41,044 up for that, you get 7 days of the challenge, which is like 411 00:25:41,044 --> 00:25:44,770 a course. But also in that is the, 412 00:25:46,350 --> 00:25:50,110 you get access to the Healthy Churches toolkit, which has a 413 00:25:50,110 --> 00:25:53,950 ton of stuff in there as well. So Yeah. Absolutely. We're gonna give you an 414 00:25:53,950 --> 00:25:56,670 email. We're gonna send you an email every day with a little reminder so that 415 00:25:56,670 --> 00:26:00,185 you can do those just a few minutes a day on the challenge. 416 00:26:00,565 --> 00:26:04,345 But it's really gonna be eye opening for the current state of your church's ministries, 417 00:26:05,365 --> 00:26:08,825 and begin to give you this this, holistic view 418 00:26:09,125 --> 00:26:12,780 of how all of these components work together to build a healthy 419 00:26:12,780 --> 00:26:16,380 church. And then while you're there in the toolkit, honestly, you're not 420 00:26:16,380 --> 00:26:19,660 gonna be able to get through everything that would fix your whole church in 7 421 00:26:19,660 --> 00:26:23,180 days, but you can at least get an overview. I mean, click in there and 422 00:26:23,180 --> 00:26:26,975 check out all of the training content on strategic envisioning, the training 423 00:26:26,975 --> 00:26:30,815 content on leadership pipeline. It's gonna you're gonna be able 424 00:26:30,815 --> 00:26:34,415 to see, in a healthy board. Yeah. If that's a 425 00:26:34,415 --> 00:26:38,255 problem or yeah. Yeah. Totally. And then, you know what? If you 426 00:26:38,255 --> 00:26:41,710 want to, get that get that subscription. We've priced it to be 427 00:26:41,710 --> 00:26:45,470 affordable for churches of any size so that you can stay in there, 428 00:26:45,470 --> 00:26:49,310 have access to all that content along with all of our coaching, that'll be provided 429 00:26:49,310 --> 00:26:53,085 for you there too so that your church can get healthy. So definitely go to 430 00:26:53,085 --> 00:26:56,525 malphorsgroup.com/challenge and sign up for the 431 00:26:56,525 --> 00:27:00,285 Church Check-up Challenge, ending at the end of 432 00:27:00,285 --> 00:27:03,745 January. So don't don't delay. That's right. 433 00:27:04,045 --> 00:27:07,265 Alright. This has been episode 274 of 434 00:27:08,029 --> 00:27:11,090 the church revitalization podcast. Go to malphorsgroup.com/274 435 00:27:12,669 --> 00:27:16,130 to read today's full show notes and article. Share it with a friend. 436 00:27:16,429 --> 00:27:20,130 Like, subscribe, smash the notification bell. 437 00:27:21,230 --> 00:27:23,169 I I we haven't said that in a while. 438 00:27:24,764 --> 00:27:28,524 Listen, do me a favor. If you're listening 439 00:27:28,524 --> 00:27:32,365 to this, I won't tell anybody, but just 440 00:27:32,365 --> 00:27:35,804 like in a couple of different tabs, throw, throw 441 00:27:35,804 --> 00:27:39,500 open a couple more of our YouTube videos. You can even turn the volume all 442 00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:43,180 the way down. We are so close to being able to 443 00:27:43,180 --> 00:27:46,700 make tens of cents a month on our 444 00:27:46,700 --> 00:27:50,385 YouTube channel. Monetizing the channel. Yeah. 445 00:27:51,005 --> 00:27:53,885 It won't be big doll it won't be big bucks. We won't be making a 446 00:27:53,885 --> 00:27:57,645 lot of money. We'll be making tens of cents. 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And if you're not gonna give us a donation, 457 00:28:34,860 --> 00:28:38,560 then please just, like, at least throw on 458 00:28:38,940 --> 00:28:42,540 the YouTube channel in the background while you're working. You don't even need to 459 00:28:42,540 --> 00:28:45,995 listen. Just keep running up that watch time. You do. Thank you. 460 00:28:45,995 --> 00:28:47,375 Feel good about yourself. 461 00:28:49,995 --> 00:28:53,835 Alright. That's amazing. Enough pandering. Thank you for being with us on 462 00:28:53,835 --> 00:28:57,595 the Church Revitalization Podcast. We love you guys. We're here to 463 00:28:57,595 --> 00:29:01,240 support you in building a healthy church and we'll be back with you again 464 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:01,980 next week.