1 00:00:10,974 --> 00:00:14,398 Hey, welcome to wine talks with Paul Cade. We are in studio today about to 2 00:00:14,406 --> 00:00:18,022 have a conversation with Reid Connet. Calls himself 3 00:00:18,078 --> 00:00:21,638 winemaker, assistant winemaker. Introductions in just a moment. Hey, have a listen to 4 00:00:21,686 --> 00:00:25,318 Yves de Launay. He is an expert in luxury 5 00:00:25,366 --> 00:00:28,932 goods, having been with Sotheby's Cartier 6 00:00:29,108 --> 00:00:32,812 LVMH, selling Louis XIII Cognac, and now with 7 00:00:32,828 --> 00:00:36,452 Chateau Angelouz in Bordeaux and Saint Emilion. Incredible 8 00:00:36,508 --> 00:00:40,264 conversation about lifestyle and the consumerism. Also, 9 00:00:40,724 --> 00:00:44,140 crazy good conversation with Michael Higgins. He is a 10 00:00:44,172 --> 00:00:47,748 wine photojournalist and has written three wine travel books. 11 00:00:47,916 --> 00:00:51,716 We're going to Bordeaux in May. I'm taking his Bordeaux book with me 12 00:00:51,740 --> 00:00:55,430 because it's got so much inside information. Inside baseball in Bordeaux, 13 00:00:55,572 --> 00:00:58,674 but also written one in Argentina and Central coast. Hey, 14 00:00:58,714 --> 00:01:02,490 subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. 15 00:01:02,682 --> 00:01:05,762 If you have nothing nice to say, don't say it. But if you do, give 16 00:01:05,778 --> 00:01:09,434 me a nice review. It's good for the podcast and we get more viewers and 17 00:01:09,474 --> 00:01:13,146 more shows on the road. Hey, always find what you love at 18 00:01:13,170 --> 00:01:16,874 total wine and more. 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Welcome to the show, 29 00:01:52,462 --> 00:01:56,302 Reed. Yeah, thank you. Somebody said, well, they mean you have to be 30 00:01:56,318 --> 00:01:59,918 21 to drink. I said, we know that, but like, be 31 00:01:59,966 --> 00:02:03,766 21. Put some effort into it. Yeah, imperative be 21. 32 00:02:03,830 --> 00:02:07,022 Yeah, fine. That's no problem. So, hey, welcome to the show. Glad you're done here. 33 00:02:07,038 --> 00:02:10,766 What are you doing down in SoCal today, this week, anyway? Yeah, I'm down in 34 00:02:10,790 --> 00:02:14,326 Southern California trying to do some sales, pay for some 35 00:02:14,350 --> 00:02:18,002 grapes. So I've got kind of a 36 00:02:18,018 --> 00:02:20,774 tangled web of things I'm involved with. 37 00:02:21,634 --> 00:02:25,466 I have a personal brand of 90 cases or 38 00:02:25,490 --> 00:02:28,734 three barrels of wine of Zinfandel called fairy ring. 39 00:02:29,074 --> 00:02:32,850 And then I also have a wine that I make called toy 40 00:02:32,882 --> 00:02:36,394 box for a client. And that's Napa Valley 41 00:02:36,434 --> 00:02:39,334 Cabernet mainly. And then 42 00:02:39,714 --> 00:02:43,188 also I am the assistant winemaker at a 43 00:02:43,316 --> 00:02:47,076 winery in Petaluma in downtown Petaluma called Brooksnote, and we're 44 00:02:47,100 --> 00:02:50,824 Pinot noir specialists. You know, Petaluma, I had 45 00:02:51,724 --> 00:02:55,356 trombetta on the call on the show a while ago last year, 46 00:02:55,380 --> 00:02:58,708 probably sometime, Ricky, actually. Yeah, I think it was during COVID actually. 47 00:02:58,876 --> 00:03:02,540 But, you know, that was, she was part of the instrumental getting 48 00:03:02,572 --> 00:03:06,252 petaluma as an appellated place. And it's so obvious, 49 00:03:06,348 --> 00:03:09,932 you know, to me, when you taste the wines from Petaluma, that they deserved and 50 00:03:09,948 --> 00:03:13,386 needed to have their own appellation. But the 51 00:03:13,410 --> 00:03:17,250 headwinds to doing this are so complicated. But they are 52 00:03:17,282 --> 00:03:20,738 fascinating wines. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting 53 00:03:20,786 --> 00:03:24,018 place. I mean, Sonoma coast was, I think, a frustrating 54 00:03:24,066 --> 00:03:27,706 appellation for people before, and now 55 00:03:27,730 --> 00:03:31,506 it's been carved up into so many pieces 56 00:03:31,570 --> 00:03:35,082 with west Sonoma coast and 57 00:03:35,258 --> 00:03:38,634 Fort Ross Seaview, and that coming earlier 58 00:03:38,714 --> 00:03:42,014 on, and then the Petaluma gap in 2017. 59 00:03:43,834 --> 00:03:47,474 There's definitely distinctions there. The petaluma gap's really cool, though, because 60 00:03:47,514 --> 00:03:51,014 it crosses county lines, for one, like Carneros does, 61 00:03:51,794 --> 00:03:55,434 and it crosses a bunch of soil types, which is 62 00:03:55,594 --> 00:03:59,386 not very common within the Avas. And it's all 63 00:03:59,410 --> 00:04:03,082 based on the patterns of the wind. It's not just russian river anymore, is 64 00:04:03,098 --> 00:04:06,906 it? No. Sonoma being such a large swath of land for wine 65 00:04:06,930 --> 00:04:10,118 and having such, like you said, diverse districts. I mean, 66 00:04:10,166 --> 00:04:13,246 seaview, Fort Ross, 67 00:04:13,390 --> 00:04:17,182 amazing. You know, terroir for P and o. It's kind of interesting to 68 00:04:17,198 --> 00:04:19,550 me. Maybe you could take it, give your take on this. You're young in this 69 00:04:19,582 --> 00:04:23,414 industry. You came here when to 70 00:04:23,454 --> 00:04:26,782 start this idea of getting into this whack job 71 00:04:26,838 --> 00:04:30,662 business? Well, you know, I. My opinion of 72 00:04:30,678 --> 00:04:34,074 that, absolutely. Yeah. No, we're all nuts, for sure. 73 00:04:34,854 --> 00:04:38,214 So I was a server in bartender in Long 74 00:04:38,254 --> 00:04:42,094 beach in the mid two thousands, and another industry full of whack 75 00:04:42,134 --> 00:04:45,982 jobs. That's true. Maybe 76 00:04:46,118 --> 00:04:49,966 the whack job part is the passion, because you're so passionate about something that 77 00:04:50,150 --> 00:04:53,910 you come off as just like. You must be a zealot. Yeah. 78 00:04:53,942 --> 00:04:56,394 And capable of making good decisions. Right. 79 00:04:58,254 --> 00:05:01,674 That's funny. So, yeah, I 80 00:05:01,974 --> 00:05:05,342 really got interested in wines while I was working as a 81 00:05:05,358 --> 00:05:09,162 server. I was working in a 82 00:05:09,178 --> 00:05:12,922 place called Virginia Country Club with my friend Ernie Henson back in the 83 00:05:12,938 --> 00:05:16,682 early two thousands. And he was the bar manager there. And he would call me 84 00:05:16,698 --> 00:05:20,530 in for tastings and learned a lot 85 00:05:20,562 --> 00:05:23,882 that way. And then I ended up working at a short lived restaurant called Da 86 00:05:23,898 --> 00:05:27,434 Vinci, right on Long beach airport for a little while, 87 00:05:27,474 --> 00:05:31,134 and really learned a ton with my friends Corey 88 00:05:31,474 --> 00:05:35,044 and Zeke there about italian wines. And 89 00:05:35,124 --> 00:05:37,624 that was just incredible 90 00:05:39,484 --> 00:05:42,344 experience there. You think that happens a lot, 91 00:05:43,284 --> 00:05:46,944 that a bartender, waitress, waiter, a server, 92 00:05:47,644 --> 00:05:51,452 actually embraces this mysterious world called wine, and they just 93 00:05:51,468 --> 00:05:55,244 kind of go through their day and just forget about it. I mean, I think 94 00:05:55,284 --> 00:05:59,132 that's the way to wine and wine professionals for a 95 00:05:59,148 --> 00:06:01,784 lot of people. I think a lot of wine reps 96 00:06:02,564 --> 00:06:06,368 have kind of come through that pipeline, for sure. And there 97 00:06:06,376 --> 00:06:09,564 are a fair amount of winemakers 98 00:06:09,984 --> 00:06:13,744 that have gone through that route as well. I can't think of any 99 00:06:13,784 --> 00:06:17,568 off the top of my head. These sams have gotten involved, clearly, in 100 00:06:17,576 --> 00:06:21,056 the last ten years in making wine quite a bit like Rajpar and folks like 101 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,404 that. I mean, you're out there serving, and you 102 00:06:24,864 --> 00:06:28,512 look, I did this for 35 years. I keep saying this, but 103 00:06:28,648 --> 00:06:31,992 some of the employees that came through here embrace it. Many, after we sold the 104 00:06:32,008 --> 00:06:35,760 company, went on to continue their career in the industry. On the 105 00:06:35,832 --> 00:06:39,504 admin side, some could care less. And so I would look at 106 00:06:39,544 --> 00:06:43,016 blank stares when I'm tasting through the wines with the staff because I wanted them 107 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,472 to know. Right. And other ones were taking notes, trying to figure it out, you 108 00:06:46,488 --> 00:06:50,040 know? Yeah. Even for me, I was. I did this probably for 109 00:06:50,072 --> 00:06:53,872 15 years before I started realizing how cool it is. Yeah. You 110 00:06:53,888 --> 00:06:57,272 know, I mean, I think wine has a way of finding the people 111 00:06:57,328 --> 00:07:01,064 that, you know, that are just interested 112 00:07:01,104 --> 00:07:04,904 and curious about, you know? And that's the thing with me, is, like, 113 00:07:04,944 --> 00:07:08,656 I just love the intersectionality of wine. There are so many different 114 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,324 entry points, whether it's history or science or agriculture or art. 115 00:07:13,904 --> 00:07:17,408 It's just endlessly fascinating. I like that word 116 00:07:17,456 --> 00:07:20,944 crossroads, because I'm following some folks on 117 00:07:20,984 --> 00:07:24,404 LinkedIn and whatever, and it's a younger generation, 118 00:07:24,744 --> 00:07:27,124 obviously, than I am, everybody younger than I am. But 119 00:07:29,554 --> 00:07:33,370 they think they're being disruptive, which is the new word of an 120 00:07:33,402 --> 00:07:37,242 industry. That is not disruptible, really, in my 121 00:07:37,258 --> 00:07:41,050 opinion. Or if it is to be, it's very slow to 122 00:07:41,082 --> 00:07:44,374 do because 123 00:07:45,194 --> 00:07:48,426 it's steeped in tradition, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think 124 00:07:48,450 --> 00:07:52,162 there's something to be said about that and that we have to honor that 125 00:07:52,218 --> 00:07:55,640 rather than try to change it, because 126 00:07:55,752 --> 00:07:59,272 changing it, you know, hey, there's too many crossroads, you 127 00:07:59,288 --> 00:08:02,744 know? Yeah, I just thought of that. If you're gonna change the wine 128 00:08:02,824 --> 00:08:06,656 trade, then you're gonna affect the crossroads of those. Of 129 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,804 that intersection. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think 130 00:08:11,464 --> 00:08:15,048 that's a pretty grand view of yourself, to think that you're a disruptor in something 131 00:08:15,096 --> 00:08:18,112 that's thousands of years old. Right. That's my general 132 00:08:18,168 --> 00:08:21,632 contention, yeah. I mean, we live within 133 00:08:21,688 --> 00:08:25,240 a, you know, a tiny sliver of time 134 00:08:25,312 --> 00:08:28,720 compared to the history of wine. Right. Yeah. You know, and 135 00:08:28,832 --> 00:08:31,764 I was listening to your podcast with Brian Talley 136 00:08:32,504 --> 00:08:36,320 on my way down here, and it was either him or Doug 137 00:08:36,352 --> 00:08:39,684 Frost talking about 138 00:08:40,664 --> 00:08:44,312 how we're drinking the best wine now that we ever have. Right. And I 139 00:08:44,328 --> 00:08:47,912 think, well, we can stay on the subject for a 140 00:08:47,928 --> 00:08:51,000 second. Disrupting 141 00:08:51,192 --> 00:08:54,864 the. I don't know, maybe they're trying to 142 00:08:54,904 --> 00:08:58,528 disrupt the outlook of the consumer on wine or the way the 143 00:08:58,576 --> 00:09:02,224 wine industry looks out to the consumer. And I have this 144 00:09:02,264 --> 00:09:05,324 contention that canned wines, tetra packs, 145 00:09:05,904 --> 00:09:09,576 somebody just came out with a paper box, which is tetra 146 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,432 pack, but it's a little bit different. Trying to reduce the carbon footprint. I 147 00:09:13,448 --> 00:09:16,896 think that's important. Sustainability is a part of our industry. If anybody's to be 148 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,464 sustainable, the wine industry should be. But 149 00:09:20,964 --> 00:09:24,580 at the same time, the quality and the ethereal value of that 150 00:09:24,612 --> 00:09:28,428 glass of wine couldn't change or shouldn't change 151 00:09:28,596 --> 00:09:32,188 unless you are just drinking for alcohol. And that's. Hardly anybody does drink 152 00:09:32,236 --> 00:09:35,228 wine just for the alcohol. There's other ways to do that. 153 00:09:35,396 --> 00:09:38,908 So I'm interested to peel this back 154 00:09:38,956 --> 00:09:41,664 further with younger generations like you 155 00:09:42,804 --> 00:09:46,256 to understand. Let me just turn off this do not disturb. Whatever you gotta do 156 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,804 here. What do you gotta do? Oh, focus. There it is. Do not disturb. Okay. 157 00:09:51,544 --> 00:09:55,080 So I see those things as 158 00:09:55,112 --> 00:09:58,856 blips, cans, tetra packs, trying 159 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,648 to solve a political problem rather 160 00:10:02,696 --> 00:10:06,384 than this passion problem, you know, this passion about wine. Yeah, 161 00:10:06,464 --> 00:10:10,104 well, I mean, I think that there's a 162 00:10:10,144 --> 00:10:13,992 sincere, I think, desire for a lot of people to actually decrease the 163 00:10:14,008 --> 00:10:17,832 carbon footprint. And I love that idea. You know, topless Creek's doing 164 00:10:17,888 --> 00:10:21,072 bag and box with, you know, their rose and bedrock's got the 165 00:10:21,088 --> 00:10:24,904 odalulu and bag and box 166 00:10:24,944 --> 00:10:28,408 as well, so. And I think that, 167 00:10:28,456 --> 00:10:32,152 like, you know, there are wines that you put in the 168 00:10:32,168 --> 00:10:35,404 cellar and there are wines that you drink soon. And I think 169 00:10:36,104 --> 00:10:38,324 also, you know, it opens up 170 00:10:40,514 --> 00:10:43,946 new consumers. Some people are going to 171 00:10:44,130 --> 00:10:47,410 look at a can and say, you know what? That's like my 172 00:10:47,442 --> 00:10:50,866 vibe versus all the pomp and 173 00:10:50,890 --> 00:10:54,546 circumstance with a wax on your bottle and 174 00:10:54,730 --> 00:10:58,494 all that stuff. I think that's accurate. I think that's very accurate. 175 00:10:59,554 --> 00:11:03,186 Consumerism is what drives this and always has driven this industry. 176 00:11:03,290 --> 00:11:06,236 Yeah. And you kind of want to. I always kind of want to put wine 177 00:11:06,260 --> 00:11:07,988 on this pedestal and it's like, this is the way it is. This is what 178 00:11:07,996 --> 00:11:09,772 we're going to be you're going to enjoy it or you're not going to enjoy 179 00:11:09,788 --> 00:11:11,652 it. You figure it out. You don't figure it out, whatever you want to do 180 00:11:11,668 --> 00:11:15,420 with it. But I think you're right. I think the consumer drives the 181 00:11:15,452 --> 00:11:19,196 need for some of these changes, but I don't think 182 00:11:19,220 --> 00:11:22,972 it changes the value of that glass of wine as to why you 183 00:11:22,988 --> 00:11:26,740 drink it. Right. How you drink is probably one thing, but why 184 00:11:26,772 --> 00:11:30,340 you drink it's another. Yeah, I mean, I. You know, I have different beverages 185 00:11:30,412 --> 00:11:33,620 for different times. You know, like, so modelo 186 00:11:33,652 --> 00:11:37,068 especial, you know, on a hot day when I don't feel like being 187 00:11:37,116 --> 00:11:40,852 challenged, an orange 188 00:11:40,908 --> 00:11:43,944 wine on those days where I'm feeling like being pensive or something, 189 00:11:44,684 --> 00:11:48,460 but in general, I would like my 190 00:11:48,492 --> 00:11:51,784 wine to come from a certain place and 191 00:11:52,724 --> 00:11:54,944 evoke a certain kind of feeling. 192 00:11:56,684 --> 00:12:00,052 I've always tried to, through this club, 193 00:12:00,148 --> 00:12:03,700 after all this time, to get a 194 00:12:03,732 --> 00:12:07,436 consumer to the point where they feel like 195 00:12:07,500 --> 00:12:10,988 something to drink and it changes. In other words, 196 00:12:11,156 --> 00:12:14,652 you and I come home from work and we go. Like you said, I feel 197 00:12:14,668 --> 00:12:18,484 like a modelo. I often feel like gin. But if I'm in 198 00:12:18,484 --> 00:12:22,316 the wine world at that moment, do I feel like a burgundy or a 199 00:12:22,340 --> 00:12:25,964 pinot, or do I feel like a cab or do I feel like a 200 00:12:26,004 --> 00:12:29,270 lean wine from Spain? I mean, 201 00:12:29,302 --> 00:12:32,726 whatever memory 202 00:12:32,870 --> 00:12:36,558 that those wines have evoked in you, that you feel like that. 203 00:12:36,646 --> 00:12:40,326 And one night, not that long ago, I opened three different bottles before I 204 00:12:40,350 --> 00:12:44,190 got to a profile that I was trying to crave. Yeah. 205 00:12:44,222 --> 00:12:47,798 Yeah. That's frustrating. Yes. Well, you know, my wife drank one of 206 00:12:47,806 --> 00:12:51,542 them. Yeah. But that was my objective, was just to 207 00:12:51,558 --> 00:12:55,254 have people understand the nuances and not necessarily understand why or what 208 00:12:55,294 --> 00:12:58,834 you, you know, whether it's clay or slate or whatever, who cares at that point? 209 00:12:58,994 --> 00:13:02,346 Cause I think the wine industry does self propagate. The 210 00:13:02,370 --> 00:13:06,218 aristocracy that, you know, has plagued the industry. But if you 211 00:13:06,226 --> 00:13:09,450 can get people to understand that there's a difference between a petaluma gap 212 00:13:09,522 --> 00:13:13,282 pinot and one from the central coast, you know, 213 00:13:13,298 --> 00:13:17,018 we've kind of done what we've done. Yeah, absolutely. Are you trying 214 00:13:17,066 --> 00:13:20,610 to pull out of these wines that you're making that 215 00:13:20,642 --> 00:13:23,914 exact story, that the terroir like this is where it's coming 216 00:13:23,954 --> 00:13:27,054 from? Yeah, I mean, I think that 217 00:13:28,194 --> 00:13:31,346 if you're not. I mean, we all want to make a delicious wine. That's gotta 218 00:13:31,370 --> 00:13:35,162 be the goal. And clearly, you're working with 219 00:13:35,298 --> 00:13:39,146 factors with weather and 220 00:13:39,330 --> 00:13:43,146 things like that, that kind of push decisions one way or the other, and 221 00:13:43,170 --> 00:13:46,834 logistical challenges and things like that. But if you're not 222 00:13:46,874 --> 00:13:50,074 trying to make, in the world of fine wine, a wine that's 223 00:13:50,114 --> 00:13:53,916 expressing a site, I don't know why 224 00:13:53,940 --> 00:13:57,772 you're doing it. And that's the magic, especially with something like Pinot 225 00:13:57,788 --> 00:14:01,144 Noir. Pinot noir is just so expressive of sight. 226 00:14:01,604 --> 00:14:04,516 Is that the objective I see at your toy box? Which is funny, I looked 227 00:14:04,540 --> 00:14:08,236 up in my database of tasted wines, which I've tracked 228 00:14:08,260 --> 00:14:12,036 everything I've ever tasted, at least here at the office, all the stuff I've 229 00:14:12,060 --> 00:14:15,740 tasted off campus doesn't get recorded. Well, it does get 230 00:14:15,772 --> 00:14:19,590 manually recorded. Is that your objective with toy box? 231 00:14:19,622 --> 00:14:22,870 Is like, produce something, or is the proprietor of toy 232 00:14:22,902 --> 00:14:26,606 Box more interested in just getting a value oriented wine 233 00:14:26,630 --> 00:14:30,422 that has a little less character based on terroir because they get 234 00:14:30,438 --> 00:14:34,034 a better price, or what's the objective? Well, I think 235 00:14:35,334 --> 00:14:38,990 our top tier wine, generally, year 236 00:14:39,022 --> 00:14:42,786 over year, is going to be our Cabernet Sauvignon, and 237 00:14:42,810 --> 00:14:45,414 that's a Napa Valley appalated wine. 238 00:14:47,434 --> 00:14:51,178 And with that, it's something we sell on our website for $90 239 00:14:51,226 --> 00:14:54,690 a bottle. So at that price point, I think 240 00:14:54,722 --> 00:14:58,546 that you've got to be doing more than just making something that 241 00:14:58,570 --> 00:15:01,874 tastes good. You've got to be getting to that next level. 242 00:15:01,994 --> 00:15:05,490 And particularly when it says Napa Valley on the label, you've got to be 243 00:15:05,562 --> 00:15:09,050 achieving a. A certain level of quality and then a certain level of 244 00:15:09,082 --> 00:15:12,620 typicity. And what do you think's happened with Napa and 245 00:15:12,652 --> 00:15:16,224 its typicity? It's a good word. 246 00:15:16,764 --> 00:15:19,516 You know, if you'd look, if you talk to some folks that are sort of 247 00:15:19,540 --> 00:15:22,212 new into Napa wines, they're going to tell you about silver oak and camus and 248 00:15:22,228 --> 00:15:25,996 these sort of fruit forward big bombs, extracted wines. 249 00:15:26,100 --> 00:15:29,388 Sure. And then the other day, I had a 250 00:15:29,436 --> 00:15:32,628 wonderfully balanced, structured, 251 00:15:32,796 --> 00:15:36,548 acidic napa cab. And that would. That excited 252 00:15:36,596 --> 00:15:40,208 me, that, you know, enthused me that we're not headed down this path of 253 00:15:40,356 --> 00:15:43,752 sheer opulence in a wine. Absolutely. I 254 00:15:43,768 --> 00:15:47,360 think my goal is to strike a balance with that. And I know that 255 00:15:47,392 --> 00:15:51,168 that's clearly a subjective word, and about ten 256 00:15:51,216 --> 00:15:54,984 years ago was a real controversial word in the wine 257 00:15:55,024 --> 00:15:58,720 industry. But I can tell 258 00:15:58,752 --> 00:16:02,496 that you and I probably like a similar style of wine where 259 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,272 there's good structure and acidity in the wine. It's something you can age in the 260 00:16:06,288 --> 00:16:09,744 cellar and it's something that's not destroying your palate 261 00:16:09,904 --> 00:16:13,724 with tannin and oak after a sip. And so 262 00:16:14,064 --> 00:16:17,792 I think that we've definitely seen the pendulum swing back. I 263 00:16:17,808 --> 00:16:21,520 think that the wines of 264 00:16:21,552 --> 00:16:25,352 the late nineties and two thousands got really out of 265 00:16:25,368 --> 00:16:29,032 control. And I came up being interested in 266 00:16:29,048 --> 00:16:32,512 european wines. And I 267 00:16:32,528 --> 00:16:36,368 think in this last ten or 15 years, we've 268 00:16:36,416 --> 00:16:40,184 really seen a lot of new California producers producing wines that are more restraint 269 00:16:40,224 --> 00:16:43,416 and balanced. And there's people that have been doing it the whole time, like Kathy 270 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,240 Corson making some of the most 271 00:16:47,272 --> 00:16:50,720 elegant cabernets out of Napa Valley, for sure. Steve Mathias. 272 00:16:50,752 --> 00:16:54,472 And has been kind 273 00:16:54,488 --> 00:16:57,616 of the lead, the tip of the spear with that kind of new 274 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,644 California producing more restrained, 275 00:17:01,354 --> 00:17:05,050 acid driven and structured wines. But there are 276 00:17:05,122 --> 00:17:08,714 a bunch of others too. I really like the wines from 277 00:17:08,754 --> 00:17:12,586 cade. I like the wines at Lark Mead. Have been 278 00:17:12,610 --> 00:17:16,266 really great over the years. And those are the wines that, to 279 00:17:16,290 --> 00:17:19,634 me, they have a nice, rich fruit 280 00:17:19,674 --> 00:17:23,178 profile but not too much oak and pronounced 281 00:17:23,226 --> 00:17:27,014 acidity that really reign all that fruit in. 282 00:17:28,044 --> 00:17:31,580 I would say, you know, those are some of the wines that 283 00:17:31,612 --> 00:17:35,036 inspire me from Napa. It's kind of funny. We've 284 00:17:35,060 --> 00:17:38,516 had, at least compared to the Europeans, we have a young 285 00:17:38,580 --> 00:17:42,300 industry, but compared to other countries. I'm gonna pick 286 00:17:42,332 --> 00:17:46,068 on Armenia a little bit because it's my heritage. But I've been there and 287 00:17:46,076 --> 00:17:49,772 I've tasted a lot of wines. And here's this infant, infant industry. Even though 288 00:17:49,788 --> 00:17:53,196 it's been around 6000 years at least as we know 289 00:17:53,220 --> 00:17:56,850 of since the soviet rule, which 290 00:17:56,882 --> 00:18:00,338 was. I had this conversation last night with somebody 291 00:18:00,466 --> 00:18:03,906 that no progress was made in winemaking 292 00:18:04,010 --> 00:18:07,690 during the USSR. And so when countries 293 00:18:07,762 --> 00:18:10,674 like Armenia and Hungary and 294 00:18:10,834 --> 00:18:14,490 Croatia, not Croatia, but Lithuania, 295 00:18:14,562 --> 00:18:18,026 became free, really the industry started 296 00:18:18,090 --> 00:18:21,690 over all these techniques. There were no techniques 297 00:18:21,722 --> 00:18:24,946 and nobody really cared. And it was the old farmer who was just making grapes 298 00:18:24,970 --> 00:18:28,334 for brandy. And that's what they were doing. So they're really, really quite young. 299 00:18:28,714 --> 00:18:32,522 And prohibition here did the same thing, right? Yeah, that's true. 300 00:18:32,578 --> 00:18:36,234 Yeah. Pretty much prohibition. The same thing. We went to the prohibition museum in 301 00:18:36,274 --> 00:18:40,122 Savannah, Georgia last two weeks ago. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Sorry, I didn't 302 00:18:40,138 --> 00:18:43,586 mean to take you off topic. You know, actually knew stories that I. That I 303 00:18:43,610 --> 00:18:47,346 had not heard because I've read books on prohibition. You know, 304 00:18:47,450 --> 00:18:51,216 let's just touch on. It's really funny when people think that 305 00:18:51,290 --> 00:18:54,436 prohibition outlawed drinking. It did not outlaw drinking. It outlawed 306 00:18:54,460 --> 00:18:58,244 manufacturing for the purposes of retail sale and 307 00:18:58,364 --> 00:19:01,884 bars. You could make booze at home and you 308 00:19:01,924 --> 00:19:05,748 could wine and you could drink it. It wasn't illegal to drink. 309 00:19:05,796 --> 00:19:08,916 Everybody challenges me on that, but I know that's the case. Well, yeah. I mean, 310 00:19:08,940 --> 00:19:12,428 they were sending train loads full of grapes back 311 00:19:12,556 --> 00:19:15,304 east. And you talk to all these 312 00:19:16,404 --> 00:19:20,028 guys. They're like, oh, these italian guys. Yeah, my grandfather made wine in the 313 00:19:20,036 --> 00:19:23,816 bathtub and all that stuff. And it was legal. It was perfectly fine 314 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,684 to do that. It was actually a great trade, the truckloads of. 315 00:19:28,104 --> 00:19:31,032 And that's just a section. There's a chapter in one of the books I was 316 00:19:31,048 --> 00:19:34,760 reading. It was just about the perils of transporting grapes in 317 00:19:34,792 --> 00:19:38,624 train cars during parts of the year, you know, that 318 00:19:38,784 --> 00:19:42,416 destroyed. But we're getting back to what we're talking about. The 319 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,056 Armenians are challenged with the idea of oak, let's 320 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,800 say. I don't think their indigenous grape, Adoni, does well with oak. 321 00:19:49,832 --> 00:19:53,416 And I have confirmation, and I have agreement on many winemakers from that 322 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,524 area. But in the world of winemaking, 323 00:19:57,224 --> 00:20:00,856 you should put oak in it. And all the great cabernet from Napa have oak, 324 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,576 and all the great Bordeauxs have oak and burgundy, and so we gotta put 325 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,764 oak. And not everything does well with oak. And so it takes 326 00:20:08,464 --> 00:20:11,604 vintages and vintages, vintages and generations almost 327 00:20:11,984 --> 00:20:15,752 to land on where some of this stuff from where you're 328 00:20:15,768 --> 00:20:19,536 buying your grapes or from the vineyards, which wines and which grapes. I guess that's 329 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,090 your skill set requirement. How do you feel about where you're at with that? 330 00:20:23,202 --> 00:20:26,946 Oh, with oak? Yeah. With your training and the number 331 00:20:26,970 --> 00:20:30,814 of vintages you've done and how much you want to learn more and what, 332 00:20:31,114 --> 00:20:34,674 I. Mean, I think no matter how long you've been doing it, there's always 333 00:20:34,794 --> 00:20:38,562 something to learn. And I think if you're really dedicated to 334 00:20:38,578 --> 00:20:41,214 your craft, that you're always exploring 335 00:20:42,434 --> 00:20:46,106 new ideas. Those costly sometimes, like, you 336 00:20:46,130 --> 00:20:49,926 know, well, I'm gonna carbonic. I'm gonna macerate the grapes 337 00:20:49,950 --> 00:20:52,630 carbonically and see what happens all of a sudden. Oh, my God. That didn't work. 338 00:20:52,742 --> 00:20:56,318 Well, you gotta start small with anything. You've gotta be able 339 00:20:56,366 --> 00:21:00,070 to either say, okay, well, we're gonna bottle this 340 00:21:00,102 --> 00:21:03,314 50k slot of this one wacky thing, 341 00:21:04,534 --> 00:21:07,542 or be able to blend it away as a 342 00:21:07,558 --> 00:21:11,174 component and like, one of your other kind of 343 00:21:11,214 --> 00:21:14,786 bigger skus. My dad used to say back in the day, he says, you know, 344 00:21:14,810 --> 00:21:18,346 if they make a wine and it's not very good, you know, you may not 345 00:21:18,370 --> 00:21:20,498 want to put it in the bottle with your brand on it. So we're going 346 00:21:20,506 --> 00:21:24,186 to sell the juice, which we all know happens just for the listeners. I mean, 347 00:21:24,210 --> 00:21:27,994 like, it's a hard number to ascertain, but 85, 90% 348 00:21:28,034 --> 00:21:31,882 of wine is not bottled by the grower or made by 349 00:21:31,898 --> 00:21:35,322 the grower, it's bought and sold in bulk or bought and sold as grapes and 350 00:21:35,418 --> 00:21:39,050 maids, and that's just the way it is. And so sometimes it doesn't 351 00:21:39,082 --> 00:21:42,122 turn out and you put it in the bottle, blended with some other stuff and 352 00:21:42,138 --> 00:21:45,690 you kind of just move the volume around. That's. 353 00:21:45,802 --> 00:21:49,546 That's just the way the industry is, you know? Yeah. I mean, last year was 354 00:21:49,570 --> 00:21:53,258 a year where we had two of our growers that didn't sell all their grapes, 355 00:21:53,386 --> 00:21:57,130 and so we made 356 00:21:57,162 --> 00:22:00,850 a bunch of pinot noir and we're helping 357 00:22:00,882 --> 00:22:04,658 them sell it. Wow, that's great. Yeah, I mean, and it's going 358 00:22:04,666 --> 00:22:08,082 to make some really lovely wine for somebody. It's 359 00:22:08,098 --> 00:22:11,894 just we can't put it into our bottles, not because it's not good enough, 360 00:22:12,014 --> 00:22:15,354 but because we just don't have the ability to sell that much wine. 361 00:22:17,934 --> 00:22:21,390 One of the California agricultural agencies, I forgot which one, has 362 00:22:21,462 --> 00:22:25,230 recommended we pull out 50,000 vines of grapes 363 00:22:25,262 --> 00:22:28,830 because the glut and the change in consumerism and the reduction 364 00:22:28,862 --> 00:22:32,118 in volume, and we just need to plant 365 00:22:32,206 --> 00:22:35,764 pistachios and almonds and things like that. And I find that 366 00:22:35,844 --> 00:22:38,864 fascinating because I think also for the listeners, 367 00:22:40,164 --> 00:22:43,224 it's hard to get your arms around the fact that it's really an agricultural product 368 00:22:43,524 --> 00:22:47,140 and you don't have all the control in the world and it's based on 369 00:22:47,172 --> 00:22:50,972 demand and yields aren't always the same. And the 370 00:22:50,988 --> 00:22:54,236 boat turns slowly. Yeah, the boat turns slowly. That's the go. I like 371 00:22:54,260 --> 00:22:58,020 that. What were some of the headwinds that you, once you got into this 372 00:22:58,052 --> 00:23:01,790 industry, looked at this 373 00:23:01,822 --> 00:23:04,354 and he said, gee, I didn't expect this or, 374 00:23:05,214 --> 00:23:08,654 wow, that's unusual or anything that sort of 375 00:23:08,814 --> 00:23:12,614 stumped you, as they say, the marketing of wine. You're down 376 00:23:12,654 --> 00:23:16,422 here schlepping with your box, trying to sell some, get some people to 377 00:23:16,438 --> 00:23:19,806 taste the wines. Yeah, I 378 00:23:19,830 --> 00:23:23,550 think everyone's grappling right now, trying 379 00:23:23,582 --> 00:23:27,258 to figure out the market. Right. Things have 380 00:23:27,306 --> 00:23:30,954 changed. You know, I think, you know, when I came up in the 381 00:23:31,074 --> 00:23:34,610 early two thousands, there were no California producers, for the most part, 382 00:23:34,762 --> 00:23:38,562 trying to make european and inspired wines. I mean, there may 383 00:23:38,578 --> 00:23:42,242 have been a few people here and there, you know, Randall Graham's been, 384 00:23:42,298 --> 00:23:46,066 you know, kind of making interesting wines that are. Names 385 00:23:46,090 --> 00:23:49,722 them such. Yeah, yeah. And far from over the top, 386 00:23:49,778 --> 00:23:53,578 I think. But back, you know, now there's dozens 387 00:23:53,666 --> 00:23:56,654 and dozens of micro producers making 388 00:23:57,724 --> 00:24:01,132 wines under 14 or under 13, in a lot of cases, 389 00:24:01,268 --> 00:24:04,508 percent alcohol and acid driven and very little 390 00:24:04,556 --> 00:24:08,316 oak. And you've got 391 00:24:08,340 --> 00:24:11,292 a lot of options now. And you go and try to sell wine in San 392 00:24:11,308 --> 00:24:14,972 Francisco, and it's got to kind of achieve that style. That's 393 00:24:15,068 --> 00:24:18,772 the style of nearly every place you go in San 394 00:24:18,788 --> 00:24:22,584 Francisco wants that european style wine, which is wonderful 395 00:24:23,044 --> 00:24:26,830 as a drinker, but there's just a lot more competition. The. It's hard 396 00:24:26,862 --> 00:24:30,694 to find the points of differentiation and to find an angle 397 00:24:30,774 --> 00:24:34,398 and an entry point. And I think, just 398 00:24:34,486 --> 00:24:38,006 as it has always been, it ends up being about 399 00:24:38,110 --> 00:24:40,434 going out and meeting people. And 400 00:24:41,734 --> 00:24:45,518 it's a hand sell. Yeah, it's a hand sell, but it's like, you know, 401 00:24:45,606 --> 00:24:49,234 you've got to actually go out and meet people and make friends and 402 00:24:49,614 --> 00:24:53,262 tell the stories. And that's what it's really all about. I 403 00:24:53,278 --> 00:24:56,872 mean, when you talk about european style wines, and 404 00:24:57,048 --> 00:25:00,324 it wasn't that long ago, for instance, when we went to 405 00:25:00,624 --> 00:25:04,400 1989, I think it was the second year that the Pinot festival 406 00:25:04,432 --> 00:25:08,272 in Willama Valley was held. And they invited the Louis Jeddeaus and 407 00:25:08,288 --> 00:25:12,120 the Druins and all these folks to come and share, which is great 408 00:25:12,152 --> 00:25:15,576 about the industry. They do share their technology and their ideas. 409 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,376 But most of the wines of the Willama Valley at that time were. There's only 410 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,164 a few houses that were bigger. Bigger anyway. 411 00:25:23,504 --> 00:25:27,160 And the wines were okay. But it was a common 412 00:25:27,312 --> 00:25:31,136 thing to say, hey, this is very burgundian. And it was very common to 413 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,392 say, this is Bordeaux esque, and you don't hear it as much 414 00:25:34,448 --> 00:25:38,048 anymore. But now you're saying, well, we're trying to make wines of the european 415 00:25:38,096 --> 00:25:41,656 style, which I understand that because we don't have. Well, I'm sure they have them. 416 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,528 But coming through my doors here, we still try to get 417 00:25:45,576 --> 00:25:49,040 representative wines of the Provence or from Bordeaux or from wherever you're talking 418 00:25:49,072 --> 00:25:52,530 about. But do you talk like that behind the scenes? Well, 419 00:25:52,602 --> 00:25:56,266 so, I mean, just as a. To define you european in style, like, 420 00:25:56,330 --> 00:25:59,978 you know, I think that the reference point is 421 00:26:00,146 --> 00:26:03,978 basically those big, extracted, heavy wines that we 422 00:26:03,986 --> 00:26:07,754 were talking about dominating what, you know, traditionally 423 00:26:07,794 --> 00:26:11,594 we've thought of over the past 20 years as like a California wine. Right. 424 00:26:11,674 --> 00:26:15,370 And, you know, people either generally 425 00:26:15,402 --> 00:26:18,930 will like those bigger, richer wines or more restrained balance wines. 426 00:26:18,962 --> 00:26:22,346 And for the majority of the time, over the 427 00:26:22,370 --> 00:26:26,106 last 50 years, people that like those more restrained wines are gonna have to 428 00:26:26,130 --> 00:26:27,614 go to Europe to find those. 429 00:26:30,034 --> 00:26:33,786 And I think that there's 430 00:26:33,930 --> 00:26:37,490 blowback from a lot of people when you say 431 00:26:37,642 --> 00:26:39,414 burgundian or 432 00:26:40,834 --> 00:26:44,330 Bordeaux esque or whatever, because those are 433 00:26:44,362 --> 00:26:47,850 places. And of course, the EU is very protective 434 00:26:47,882 --> 00:26:51,730 of all of its place names. And so I understand 435 00:26:51,802 --> 00:26:55,490 that. And as a Chardonnay lover who has 436 00:26:55,522 --> 00:26:59,202 had many discussions with people about Chardonnay, when people 437 00:26:59,258 --> 00:27:02,834 say, oh, we make a lean, crisp style, and they say, it's like a chablis, 438 00:27:02,874 --> 00:27:06,682 I'm like, no, it is not. There's almost nothing 439 00:27:06,738 --> 00:27:10,362 like Chablis in the world. There's nothing like champagne in the world. 440 00:27:10,498 --> 00:27:14,330 And those are places that 441 00:27:14,362 --> 00:27:18,138 you can't. So I don't like evoking, necessarily a place name far 442 00:27:18,186 --> 00:27:21,866 away. Well, that was part of the 443 00:27:21,970 --> 00:27:25,722 culture in California wine, though. That's what you did. You would go to 444 00:27:25,738 --> 00:27:29,394 the tastings. I reflect 445 00:27:29,434 --> 00:27:32,730 on some of these great days of the early wine trade of 446 00:27:32,762 --> 00:27:36,410 California. I would go to a tasting, and Fess Parker would be there signing 447 00:27:36,442 --> 00:27:40,214 autographs with his Daniel Boone hat, but pouring off 448 00:27:42,354 --> 00:27:46,178 his wines. And then next booth would be Dicky Smothers pouring up 449 00:27:46,266 --> 00:27:49,938 his sonoma wines, and Pat Paulson, the famed comedian, pouring 450 00:27:49,986 --> 00:27:52,694 off refrigerator white. 451 00:27:53,434 --> 00:27:57,202 And those are the conversations you would have, and I'm glad we don't 452 00:27:57,218 --> 00:28:01,066 do that anymore. You're right. Those are places. And so we 453 00:28:01,090 --> 00:28:03,814 shouldn't be comparing our place to their place, 454 00:28:04,474 --> 00:28:08,242 because we aren't that place. Right. Well, yeah, I 455 00:28:08,258 --> 00:28:12,106 mean, I think, to your point, like you're talking about in the early days, 456 00:28:12,210 --> 00:28:15,922 we're still in the early days. Yeah, that's true. We're still trying to figure out. 457 00:28:15,978 --> 00:28:19,002 I mean, I think we've got a pretty good handle on, you know, where you 458 00:28:19,018 --> 00:28:21,690 can find good Pinot and where you can find good cab, where you can get 459 00:28:21,722 --> 00:28:25,506 great roan varieties. But I think, you know, when it 460 00:28:25,530 --> 00:28:29,306 comes down to it, we're still figuring everything out. 461 00:28:29,410 --> 00:28:32,810 And so I think that all of our wine traditions in this country, 462 00:28:33,002 --> 00:28:35,774 you know, the troops came home from World War Two 463 00:28:36,314 --> 00:28:39,914 and wanted wine all of a sudden. And so the wine industry 464 00:28:39,994 --> 00:28:43,650 was reborn. And so, you know, all that planting 465 00:28:43,722 --> 00:28:46,494 started in the sixties and seventies. Seventies. And 466 00:28:48,074 --> 00:28:51,442 so you have to have a place to give people 467 00:28:51,618 --> 00:28:55,450 context for the wines. My dad only bought vineyards in 468 00:28:55,482 --> 00:28:58,334 72 instead of starting a wine club. 469 00:29:00,554 --> 00:29:04,122 Because those are the guys that don't have to charge $90 a 470 00:29:04,138 --> 00:29:07,570 bottle. Yeah, because they paid for the land a long time ago. Sure. 471 00:29:07,642 --> 00:29:11,456 Yeah, yeah. But it is. California is 472 00:29:11,610 --> 00:29:15,084 in its infancy. I mean, it always will be compared to its 473 00:29:15,124 --> 00:29:18,660 counterparts in other parts of the world. It's interesting, 474 00:29:18,692 --> 00:29:22,396 too. They just got done with the master of wine program, the Institute 475 00:29:22,420 --> 00:29:26,004 of Masters of Wine, dropping the term 476 00:29:26,084 --> 00:29:29,892 old world from description 477 00:29:30,028 --> 00:29:33,676 and use during the academic pursuit 478 00:29:33,740 --> 00:29:37,028 of wine trade. And I think certainly the master of wine, 479 00:29:37,076 --> 00:29:40,450 psalm diploma. W said, are 480 00:29:40,482 --> 00:29:44,266 important academic accolades to earn depending on where 481 00:29:44,290 --> 00:29:48,114 you want to land in the wine business. But I just thought it 482 00:29:48,114 --> 00:29:51,938 was interesting that they dropped that nomenclature. Have 483 00:29:51,946 --> 00:29:54,254 you heard this? I haven't heard about it. 484 00:29:56,234 --> 00:29:59,578 I think there's a value to it, to using it. 485 00:29:59,626 --> 00:30:03,434 Yeah. Not only a style, but a 486 00:30:03,474 --> 00:30:06,004 location. Sure. I mean, 487 00:30:07,064 --> 00:30:10,800 I think it sounds like, oh, these are like wines from the. Old country 488 00:30:10,872 --> 00:30:14,648 or something. Right. I mean, I think that these 489 00:30:14,696 --> 00:30:18,496 days, that word just people know what it means 490 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,072 to a certain degree. And, like, what does it mean? Right. Like, why wouldn't you 491 00:30:22,088 --> 00:30:25,864 just talk about Europe when you're talking about, you know, wines? Or, like, 492 00:30:25,904 --> 00:30:29,272 why wouldn't you talk about a specific country? So, I mean, I can 493 00:30:29,328 --> 00:30:33,162 understand maybe why someone might kind of balk at 494 00:30:33,178 --> 00:30:36,494 that a little bit, but, I mean, that's certainly nothing that I would 495 00:30:37,114 --> 00:30:40,214 vote for pushing out. I've always argued that it 496 00:30:40,834 --> 00:30:44,414 not only deals with just defining, let's say, 497 00:30:45,074 --> 00:30:48,458 more modern regions like Argentina. Oh, yeah. 498 00:30:48,586 --> 00:30:52,282 California, Australia, New Zealand, 499 00:30:52,378 --> 00:30:56,050 versus the historic vintages. Regions 500 00:30:56,082 --> 00:30:59,214 like Burgundy and Bordeaux in the 12th century, 11th century. 501 00:30:59,984 --> 00:31:03,704 And look, you've got to think and look at your 502 00:31:03,744 --> 00:31:06,608 career already that everything you do 503 00:31:06,736 --> 00:31:10,160 becomes influenced in the bottle 504 00:31:10,192 --> 00:31:14,000 eventually. In other words, if I've got a vineyard that was being 505 00:31:14,032 --> 00:31:17,040 farmed by Charlemagne in 506 00:31:17,072 --> 00:31:20,816 Burgundy, that these lessons have rolled forward, 507 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,244 maybe they get truncated and diluted, but eventually 508 00:31:25,044 --> 00:31:28,724 they become part of the terroir. Right. The knowledge 509 00:31:28,764 --> 00:31:32,188 base becomes part of the terroir. And I think that's fascinating about wine. 510 00:31:32,356 --> 00:31:34,744 No other product in the world has that 511 00:31:36,164 --> 00:31:39,264 ability. I mean, maybe like 512 00:31:39,804 --> 00:31:43,276 en modena or, you know, and reggiano, 513 00:31:43,460 --> 00:31:47,244 they might disagree with that. I mean, but that's. Yeah, 514 00:31:47,284 --> 00:31:51,104 that is like, you know, the centuries and centuries of tradition. 515 00:31:51,964 --> 00:31:55,694 You know, that's a beautiful story, for one, 516 00:31:56,714 --> 00:31:59,414 and it's really special. And so I think 517 00:32:00,034 --> 00:32:03,586 tradition is a really beautiful part of wine. 518 00:32:03,650 --> 00:32:07,402 And I think that, back to when you're talking about, are 519 00:32:07,418 --> 00:32:11,002 you trying to make wines that express. Express a 520 00:32:11,018 --> 00:32:14,722 place? I think that's what, at 521 00:32:14,738 --> 00:32:17,894 the top level of winemaking that you're trying to do is 522 00:32:18,754 --> 00:32:22,448 you've got grapes grown on a piece of land that are turned into 523 00:32:22,496 --> 00:32:26,328 wine, and then your job is to basically make sure 524 00:32:26,376 --> 00:32:29,776 that you make the wine taste delicious, but 525 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,200 also manage not to stomp and 526 00:32:33,232 --> 00:32:36,976 muddle the message from, you know, from the 527 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,272 point where you've harvested the grapes to the point where people are drinking it. One 528 00:32:40,288 --> 00:32:43,448 of the greatest expressions of that was from a young woman who's making wine in 529 00:32:43,456 --> 00:32:47,160 Armenia her name is Julia de Guilla, and she runs a pretty 530 00:32:47,192 --> 00:32:50,172 large winery, and she runs one in Argentina for the same owner. 531 00:32:50,328 --> 00:32:54,036 And she goes, what other product can you carry halfway across the 532 00:32:54,060 --> 00:32:56,780 world? Plop on the table and say, this is when we were, and this is 533 00:32:56,812 --> 00:33:00,452 who we are. And I go, that's a fascinating expression that people do 534 00:33:00,468 --> 00:33:04,236 that I have this, again, going back to my romantic view of wine, 535 00:33:04,420 --> 00:33:08,132 that when somebody tastes 536 00:33:08,188 --> 00:33:11,824 a wine like that, that's true to its origins. 537 00:33:12,164 --> 00:33:15,932 Bad vintage are good. They were talking about the bad vintages of Bordeaux at a 538 00:33:15,948 --> 00:33:19,676 tasting the other day, and I'm like, yeah, but so you express what 539 00:33:19,700 --> 00:33:22,824 you got. It may not be as pleasant as the 540 00:33:23,324 --> 00:33:26,812 1990 Bordeaux, but you 541 00:33:26,868 --> 00:33:30,636 express that vintage. And so if I taste green or I 542 00:33:30,660 --> 00:33:34,452 taste whatever I taste in this wine is because you express 543 00:33:34,508 --> 00:33:38,116 that vintage. I think that's really important, maybe a little too romantic, 544 00:33:38,260 --> 00:33:41,956 but I always feel like, and it happens all the time 545 00:33:41,980 --> 00:33:44,886 with my friends at dinner, if I bring out a wine that I just think 546 00:33:44,910 --> 00:33:48,510 it's fascinating and they don't know why it's 547 00:33:48,542 --> 00:33:51,982 really good. Yeah. You know, they just go, this is really good. They don't have 548 00:33:51,998 --> 00:33:55,674 to know why. Right? But I think that happens to people 549 00:33:57,054 --> 00:34:00,406 at a proper vintage, at a not proper. A proper wine, 550 00:34:00,510 --> 00:34:04,086 properly made wine, an honestly made wine, let's put it that way, that you 551 00:34:04,110 --> 00:34:07,502 didn't put sugar in it, you didn't throw acid into it, you didn't change the 552 00:34:07,518 --> 00:34:11,360 color with mega purple, whatever that stuff is. You just made the wine, 553 00:34:11,542 --> 00:34:15,260 and that's expressed. And somebody goes, hmm, I'm 554 00:34:15,292 --> 00:34:18,892 starting to get this now. You don't have to understand the soil, the schist, and 555 00:34:18,908 --> 00:34:22,384 all of the crap in there, right? I mean, well, I mean, 556 00:34:23,644 --> 00:34:27,340 for the average wine drinker. No, I mean, that's the thing with wine, 557 00:34:27,372 --> 00:34:31,116 is the layers are there if you want them, and they're not if you don't. 558 00:34:31,180 --> 00:34:34,420 You can turn that off. I mean, it's hard for when you're in the business 559 00:34:34,492 --> 00:34:37,892 to turn it off. It took me a long time to be able to go 560 00:34:37,908 --> 00:34:41,380 to a party at someone's house and drink a cheap, you know, kind of 561 00:34:41,492 --> 00:34:44,892 plain glass of wine. I poured a popular wine last night at the 562 00:34:44,908 --> 00:34:48,184 funeral, and I went to my car 563 00:34:48,724 --> 00:34:52,572 and brought something in that I had brought just in case. And I 564 00:34:52,588 --> 00:34:56,276 know the wine well that I served, and everybody loved it. I 565 00:34:56,300 --> 00:35:00,092 couldn't drink it. Yeah, I mean, that's the scary 566 00:35:00,148 --> 00:35:03,564 part. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, when it comes to vintages, 567 00:35:03,644 --> 00:35:07,140 though, you know, I think, like, the way that we define vintages 568 00:35:07,212 --> 00:35:10,932 is difficult. You know, the people selling the 569 00:35:10,948 --> 00:35:14,024 wine and the people in the press 570 00:35:14,764 --> 00:35:18,460 basically just want something that's juicy and 571 00:35:18,532 --> 00:35:22,212 ripe and fun, you know, right out of the gate. 572 00:35:22,268 --> 00:35:26,116 Right? And so, you know, these cooler vintage wines, you know, 573 00:35:26,260 --> 00:35:30,100 you know, if you look at 2011, you know, Kapa Cabernet right now. 574 00:35:30,172 --> 00:35:33,924 Right. You know, they're gorgeous, right? You know, so those are just wines that you 575 00:35:33,964 --> 00:35:37,700 put away in the cellar and take your time on. And I understand that 576 00:35:37,732 --> 00:35:41,548 because when you're going out pouring wine for people, you know, you're not going 577 00:35:41,556 --> 00:35:45,284 to tell the person at the restaurant, like, oh, here, buy this wine from 578 00:35:45,324 --> 00:35:49,076 me now, and then keep it in 579 00:35:49,100 --> 00:35:52,556 your wine cellar for ten years. I mean, I know there 580 00:35:52,580 --> 00:35:56,284 are wonderful, amazing restaurants that do things like that, 581 00:35:56,444 --> 00:36:00,188 or maybe a distributor will hold back a little bit and 582 00:36:00,236 --> 00:36:03,644 try again in a few years, but that's just not the model that 583 00:36:03,764 --> 00:36:07,500 98% of people are operating on. I would imagine that's true. 584 00:36:07,532 --> 00:36:10,704 And most the argument, I think it's 48 hours. 585 00:36:11,334 --> 00:36:14,694 Like, 80% of the wine bought at the store is open in 48 hours. Right? 586 00:36:14,774 --> 00:36:17,750 So, I guess. And I guess that goes back to this consumerism thing. I mean, 587 00:36:17,782 --> 00:36:21,574 even Madame Clicquot was brilliant at figuring out the consumerism 588 00:36:21,614 --> 00:36:25,270 of the Russians and the English to get wines to them that they 589 00:36:25,302 --> 00:36:29,046 liked. And they were different. There were different cuvets that went to different countries. 590 00:36:29,150 --> 00:36:32,766 And I guess it's always been driven by consumers. Which leads me to this 591 00:36:32,790 --> 00:36:34,714 question, why the hell are you making Zinfandel? 592 00:36:36,574 --> 00:36:39,902 Well, yeah, so the fairy ring Zinfandel 593 00:36:39,998 --> 00:36:43,588 is, um, my own little 90 case, uh, 594 00:36:43,676 --> 00:36:47,500 project. And so my, um, two 595 00:36:47,532 --> 00:36:50,772 other jobs that I have, I wouldn't call the fairy ring a job as. As 596 00:36:50,868 --> 00:36:54,596 so much as an obligation. Right. Uh, but the, uh, Brooks 597 00:36:54,620 --> 00:36:58,172 note, the winery in Petaluma that I work for, and Toybox, who is a 598 00:36:58,188 --> 00:37:01,940 client of mine, we get all of the cab and cab 599 00:37:01,972 --> 00:37:05,692 franc out of a small vineyard in Calistoga. And so, 600 00:37:05,828 --> 00:37:09,610 um, toy box, before this, was making wine out of Pope Valley. 601 00:37:09,642 --> 00:37:12,534 But in 2020, the Cadden family 602 00:37:13,354 --> 00:37:16,770 vineyard that we sourced from actually caught on fire in 603 00:37:16,802 --> 00:37:20,090 2020. Yeah. So we kind of had to 604 00:37:20,202 --> 00:37:23,834 shift our production in 2021. 605 00:37:23,914 --> 00:37:27,130 I was working in a place called Joseph Sellers in Calistoga, 606 00:37:27,282 --> 00:37:30,882 and one of our clients there was Heidi 607 00:37:30,898 --> 00:37:34,682 Barrett. So we worked on the La Sirena and Lambourne family and 608 00:37:34,818 --> 00:37:38,348 Barrett. And Barrett wine. So that was a great experience. But the vineyard 609 00:37:38,396 --> 00:37:41,804 manager for Joseph Sellers was a guy named Gerardo, 610 00:37:41,884 --> 00:37:45,100 and I just asked him, hey, I'm looking for a little 611 00:37:45,132 --> 00:37:48,264 cabernet, you know, of anything. He says, 612 00:37:48,764 --> 00:37:52,476 I think I can help you. Meet me at this address, you 613 00:37:52,500 --> 00:37:56,220 know, this afternoon. And so I went and met this guy 614 00:37:56,252 --> 00:37:59,868 named Jack Smith, who's got this tiny vineyard called Marcy's Vineyard 615 00:37:59,996 --> 00:38:03,788 in his backyard across the Napa river 616 00:38:03,836 --> 00:38:07,330 from the fairgrounds in Calistoga. And 617 00:38:07,522 --> 00:38:11,094 we went down, he's got this shipping container kind of 618 00:38:11,874 --> 00:38:15,530 three quarters of the way buried into the bank of 619 00:38:15,562 --> 00:38:19,154 the Napa river there. And we went down there and tasting 620 00:38:19,194 --> 00:38:22,762 barrels. Wow, how cool that they had kind of just made 621 00:38:22,818 --> 00:38:26,242 there on site with no forklifts or anything, 622 00:38:26,298 --> 00:38:30,002 just all by hand. And so 623 00:38:30,138 --> 00:38:33,692 toy box and Brooks note split all of the 624 00:38:33,748 --> 00:38:37,524 Bordeaux varieties out of the vineyard. And Gerardo then said, well, 625 00:38:37,604 --> 00:38:40,916 you guys want the zinn, too. There's, like five rows of Zen. 626 00:38:41,100 --> 00:38:44,572 Wow. And I said, no, neither of my guys wants the Zen. He's like, well, 627 00:38:44,588 --> 00:38:48,212 what about you? I said, I don't have any money, you know? He said, well, 628 00:38:48,268 --> 00:38:52,084 let's work something out. And so I ended up trading 15 629 00:38:52,164 --> 00:38:55,996 cases of wine for my first ton of grapes. Wow. Congratulations. That's great. That's 630 00:38:56,020 --> 00:38:59,254 what I loved about the really wine business. There's a lot of bars going on. 631 00:38:59,334 --> 00:39:02,862 Yeah. I mean, you know, it's like we've all got, you 632 00:39:02,878 --> 00:39:06,358 know, one person's problem is another person's solution. Right. 633 00:39:06,486 --> 00:39:09,974 And, you know, so long as you're dealing with 634 00:39:10,014 --> 00:39:13,766 quality stuff, like, there's no real problems. Yeah. They'd rather see it made 635 00:39:13,790 --> 00:39:17,134 into wine and make a deal on it than get it. Let it hang there 636 00:39:17,174 --> 00:39:20,790 forever. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, the Zinfandel 637 00:39:20,822 --> 00:39:24,126 just kind of landed in my lap, and I. And, you know, I've been at 638 00:39:24,150 --> 00:39:27,872 this for a little while now, and, you know, every winemaker wants to kind 639 00:39:27,888 --> 00:39:31,712 of have their own sort of project. And so I just felt like 640 00:39:31,728 --> 00:39:32,444 it was. 641 00:39:35,624 --> 00:39:39,208 I felt like it was nudging me in a direction. And that's great. 642 00:39:39,336 --> 00:39:42,872 You know, it's like when you're thinking about having kids, you're never 643 00:39:42,928 --> 00:39:46,712 really ready. Right. And so I 644 00:39:46,728 --> 00:39:50,416 just figured it was a good thing just to get started and 645 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,444 working on it. Isn't it a great versatile grape? Yes. 646 00:39:56,044 --> 00:39:59,620 Can produce port style wines. It can produce white Zinfandel and can 647 00:39:59,652 --> 00:40:03,464 produce, you know, structured, acidic wines and has great. 648 00:40:03,844 --> 00:40:07,676 It has a capability to absorb terroir as well. Yeah. 649 00:40:07,740 --> 00:40:11,196 You can tell when one is from Lodi or one's from Napa. So that's. Yeah, 650 00:40:11,260 --> 00:40:15,020 I think that's great. So you have 90 cases, which, you know, certainly 651 00:40:15,052 --> 00:40:18,836 you're not going to retire making and selling 90 cases. You have 652 00:40:18,860 --> 00:40:22,524 ambition to grow that brand into. I'm 653 00:40:22,564 --> 00:40:26,212 taking it slow right now. I've got two other jobs 654 00:40:26,268 --> 00:40:29,304 that I'm working on, and I got a seven year old daughter 655 00:40:29,844 --> 00:40:32,860 that I really enjoy spending time with. 656 00:40:33,012 --> 00:40:35,344 Yeah. And so 657 00:40:37,004 --> 00:40:40,796 I'm taking it nice and slow. I don't want to rack 658 00:40:40,820 --> 00:40:44,388 up a bunch of debt and then not have time to go out and sell 659 00:40:44,436 --> 00:40:48,012 something. So right now, it's at a fun level right now 660 00:40:48,148 --> 00:40:51,068 where I can go out and work on selling it if I need to. I 661 00:40:51,076 --> 00:40:54,544 can share it with friends. I can donate it to my daughter's school for 662 00:40:54,844 --> 00:40:58,144 dinners and things like that. And you get 663 00:40:58,964 --> 00:41:02,556 a little more experience every time you do it, right? Yeah. A little more understanding, 664 00:41:02,580 --> 00:41:06,316 a little more. Yeah. And so with 665 00:41:06,340 --> 00:41:09,820 Zinfandel, I'm definitely 666 00:41:09,972 --> 00:41:13,380 into making a more kind of restrained style. 667 00:41:13,532 --> 00:41:16,424 And I have no dogma about 668 00:41:17,084 --> 00:41:20,300 when I'm in a picket and what the alcohol needs to be or anything like 669 00:41:20,332 --> 00:41:24,042 that. Just gotta taste delicious. It's gotta have no residual sugar in 670 00:41:24,058 --> 00:41:27,722 it. It can't taste like a box of 671 00:41:27,738 --> 00:41:31,290 raisins. That's tough. And so 672 00:41:31,482 --> 00:41:35,254 I think, so far, what I've been able to do with it is make 673 00:41:37,834 --> 00:41:41,014 a medium bodied, 674 00:41:43,114 --> 00:41:46,866 acid driven Zinfandel that's got beautiful 675 00:41:47,050 --> 00:41:50,874 kind of layers in it of various fruits. I blended 676 00:41:50,914 --> 00:41:54,738 a little petite syrah into the 22 vintage, which kind of gave it a 677 00:41:54,746 --> 00:41:58,570 little bit of depth and darker fruit flavors and things like 678 00:41:58,602 --> 00:42:02,170 that. But the vineyard wants to do this 679 00:42:02,242 --> 00:42:06,026 really beautiful, floral, peachy, hibiscus 680 00:42:06,090 --> 00:42:07,614 kind of thing. So. 681 00:42:09,914 --> 00:42:13,662 The notes that the zimpandel provides naturally are just gorgeous. But I 682 00:42:13,678 --> 00:42:16,582 do like that petite syrah in there, just to give it a little bit more 683 00:42:16,638 --> 00:42:20,222 of the low end. A little bit more dark fruit, little acid. Yeah, a little 684 00:42:20,238 --> 00:42:23,686 more. Well, therein lies the thing. I want to tell you a quick story, because 685 00:42:23,710 --> 00:42:27,406 I went up to. I went to the African association of 686 00:42:27,430 --> 00:42:31,022 African American Vendors, and they had a tasting two Sundays 687 00:42:31,038 --> 00:42:34,470 ago at the copia, the CIA 688 00:42:34,542 --> 00:42:38,094 copia by oxbow, and I tasted about 75 689 00:42:38,134 --> 00:42:41,234 wines, all of african american 690 00:42:41,354 --> 00:42:44,970 descent, which is a growing issue in the 691 00:42:45,002 --> 00:42:48,054 industry. BIPOC women in the trade 692 00:42:48,554 --> 00:42:51,586 trying to get past the 693 00:42:51,610 --> 00:42:55,178 aristocracy. I've never thought there was a 694 00:42:55,306 --> 00:42:58,654 deliberate, exclusionary part of the wine trade. 695 00:42:59,034 --> 00:43:02,690 It's just an intimidating industry. But for 696 00:43:02,722 --> 00:43:06,570 oddball stuff that we, you know, and not that Zinz oddball, 697 00:43:06,642 --> 00:43:10,374 because it's obviously mainstream, and it was very popular in the seventies, 698 00:43:10,834 --> 00:43:14,346 but it's, you know, it's. It's a tougher sell in a market where it's congested 699 00:43:14,370 --> 00:43:18,014 with Cabernet and Pinot things. A woman was making 700 00:43:18,754 --> 00:43:22,454 a canned method champagne. Champagne. 701 00:43:22,994 --> 00:43:26,522 Wow. And so your first question is, as I was standing there was like, how 702 00:43:26,538 --> 00:43:29,374 do you disgorge it? She goes, we don't. 703 00:43:30,134 --> 00:43:32,954 Hmm. So now. Yeah, see, that's it. 704 00:43:34,214 --> 00:43:37,838 So, you know, the rose actually 705 00:43:37,886 --> 00:43:41,702 was pretty palatable wine. It was pretty interesting. But, you know, 706 00:43:41,718 --> 00:43:45,422 you've got this yeast thing going on in there, this spent yeast cells in 707 00:43:45,438 --> 00:43:49,238 this can. Yeah. And I was thinking, you know, how they, you know, they have 708 00:43:49,246 --> 00:43:52,526 the SWOT analysis, you know, you go heavy light or whatever, how they figured out, 709 00:43:52,550 --> 00:43:56,366 like, light beer was a. Was a potential marketplace, and 710 00:43:56,390 --> 00:43:59,972 you plug the holes. So where she saw 711 00:44:00,148 --> 00:44:03,860 cans and then method champagne wa. Was this empty 712 00:44:03,932 --> 00:44:07,708 space, but felt like that there was a marketplace for it. 713 00:44:07,876 --> 00:44:10,756 I'm trying to figure that one out, because so much of what we do is 714 00:44:10,820 --> 00:44:14,588 marketing, branding, and. Yeah, I think your strategy for your zin 715 00:44:14,636 --> 00:44:18,340 to grow slow and get some traction and see if it 716 00:44:18,492 --> 00:44:21,516 gets a hold, because building a brand on the wine business is almost, you know, 717 00:44:21,580 --> 00:44:25,084 virtually impossible. Yeah, well, there's only five rows in this vineyard, 718 00:44:25,124 --> 00:44:28,868 so that's how you're gonna grow, right? Yeah, I mean, you know, 719 00:44:29,036 --> 00:44:32,332 there are some. I mean, you know, I live in Santa Rosa, 720 00:44:32,468 --> 00:44:35,980 and, you know, Napa's got great zen, for sure. 721 00:44:36,172 --> 00:44:39,844 You know, folks like Biale and, you know, once in 722 00:44:39,884 --> 00:44:43,412 future, you know, Ridge. Yeah. 723 00:44:43,548 --> 00:44:47,196 And Montellaina has been making a great zen for years 724 00:44:47,220 --> 00:44:50,532 and years. And then you go over to Sonoma county and, yeah, you've got, you 725 00:44:50,548 --> 00:44:54,116 know, Sonoma Valley, which has all those wonderful field blends, and 726 00:44:54,220 --> 00:44:57,700 litten springs, as you mentioned, ridge, you know, dry Creek Valley's just 727 00:44:57,732 --> 00:45:01,304 got. I worked very good for. Yeah, I worked for Moritz and family 728 00:45:01,724 --> 00:45:05,436 out there for about a year, and they're 729 00:45:05,460 --> 00:45:08,996 making great zin. So there's a lot of opportunities and plenty of vineyards up 730 00:45:09,020 --> 00:45:12,700 there, even in the russian river, there's some really great old gnarly 731 00:45:12,852 --> 00:45:16,544 zin vineyards out there. So I think there's opportunity, but I think 732 00:45:17,924 --> 00:45:21,500 I want to try making a couple other things as well. And it's kind of 733 00:45:21,532 --> 00:45:25,372 nice to have a California classic if you've got to pick 734 00:45:25,428 --> 00:45:29,112 one wine to show somebody from another country. What is 735 00:45:29,128 --> 00:45:32,840 California wine? I mean, this is the true, unique kind 736 00:45:32,872 --> 00:45:36,464 of wine of the area. Well, before 737 00:45:36,544 --> 00:45:40,296 DNA testing of grapes, it was possibly 738 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:44,184 considered an indigenous Vitis vinifera 739 00:45:44,224 --> 00:45:47,360 grape. For California, but it's later. It's been disproven that. Maybe even for 740 00:45:47,392 --> 00:45:51,000 Persia, but that's a good point. It would be 741 00:45:51,032 --> 00:45:54,240 something that we would call Hazarathi. Brought it in 18. Whatever. 742 00:45:54,352 --> 00:45:58,186 Yeah. You know, that's where we hang our laurels. You know, there's 743 00:45:58,210 --> 00:46:01,746 a guy in Missouri. You should listen to the podcast. Jerry 744 00:46:01,770 --> 00:46:05,574 Eisterhold, he was on the show a few weeks ago, who's 745 00:46:05,874 --> 00:46:08,974 done this amazing research and found these 746 00:46:09,714 --> 00:46:13,386 Lambrusca grapes that made all of the wines 747 00:46:13,450 --> 00:46:17,226 before prohibition that were american. Cause 748 00:46:17,250 --> 00:46:20,754 that part of the world, at least part of the country, was very prolific wine. 749 00:46:20,834 --> 00:46:24,298 Louisiana, Ohio, you know, Michigan, all those places. The first Ava 750 00:46:24,346 --> 00:46:28,148 is in Missouri, right? Yeah, right. He's 751 00:46:28,276 --> 00:46:31,788 propagated like a dozen, maybe even more of these 752 00:46:31,836 --> 00:46:35,436 grapes, and he's already abandoned four of them going. I don't know how you make 753 00:46:35,460 --> 00:46:39,060 wine out of this, because it's just not working. But 754 00:46:39,252 --> 00:46:43,012 the Smithsonian wrote about him, and I got the Smithsonian 755 00:46:43,068 --> 00:46:46,820 four pack. It just got delivered last week. Of wines. Of grapes you 756 00:46:46,852 --> 00:46:50,184 and I have never heard of in our lives. And I'm not sure 757 00:46:50,884 --> 00:46:54,660 if I invite friends over to taste them with me or not. 758 00:46:54,772 --> 00:46:58,460 Well, yeah. It's got to be the right friends. To figure this 759 00:46:58,492 --> 00:47:02,260 out. So we're almost at. We're already at 47 minutes, 760 00:47:02,292 --> 00:47:05,172 which is unbelievable. But I did want to touch, you know, you. You have an 761 00:47:05,228 --> 00:47:09,004 interesting history with some of these winers, with Joseph Sellers, you 762 00:47:09,004 --> 00:47:11,860 know, Barrett. And Barrett. I know Bo Barrett. I mean, I went to school with 763 00:47:11,892 --> 00:47:15,548 his brother Kevin, but Claire Bowen and 764 00:47:15,556 --> 00:47:19,084 Churchill, I mean, that's what a fascinating group. And they make dry 765 00:47:19,124 --> 00:47:22,660 riesling, and one of my first wines I ever bought as 766 00:47:22,692 --> 00:47:26,442 a. In the wine club and always a go to when I 767 00:47:26,458 --> 00:47:30,106 needed something because the wines are such quality. What'd you do there? I worked my 768 00:47:30,130 --> 00:47:33,970 first harvest there. Really? Yeah. Yeah. So I was going to Cal Poly slow, 769 00:47:34,122 --> 00:47:37,602 and at the time, I just 770 00:47:37,658 --> 00:47:41,410 really was interested in making stuff that was different. And so 771 00:47:41,602 --> 00:47:45,402 they make some nice pinots, and Edna Valley is a great terroir for 772 00:47:45,418 --> 00:47:48,858 Pinot Noir. And, yeah, I was really 773 00:47:48,906 --> 00:47:52,380 interested in just, you know, making. So glad they're still 774 00:47:52,412 --> 00:47:55,628 around. Yeah. Yeah. Clay and Frederica are wonderful 775 00:47:55,676 --> 00:47:59,044 folks. I still think about every harvest 776 00:47:59,124 --> 00:48:02,788 that Frederica would come down with, you know, these 777 00:48:02,876 --> 00:48:06,068 beautiful sandwiches that were homemade and wrapped in wax 778 00:48:06,116 --> 00:48:08,744 paper and all that stuff. And 779 00:48:09,844 --> 00:48:13,404 my friend Kyle, who's got his own brand called Minus Tide 780 00:48:13,484 --> 00:48:16,184 with my friend Brad and Miriam, 781 00:48:17,434 --> 00:48:20,914 he was the other intern there with me and Kobe 782 00:48:20,954 --> 00:48:24,650 Parker Garcia was the winemaker he's got a brand called El 783 00:48:24,682 --> 00:48:28,414 Lugar out of San Luis Obispo as well. So 784 00:48:29,074 --> 00:48:32,578 I have a lot of great memories from that first harvest. I think most people 785 00:48:32,626 --> 00:48:36,410 do, if they landed at a decent place, have a lot of 786 00:48:36,442 --> 00:48:40,018 memories from their first harvest, and those were all great folks. 787 00:48:40,066 --> 00:48:43,854 And think back on that, there's a. Lot of loyalty in this industry. 788 00:48:44,474 --> 00:48:47,906 Not on the selling side. From the distributor standpoint, there's no 789 00:48:47,930 --> 00:48:51,262 loyalty, but from the. The authenticity of the 790 00:48:51,278 --> 00:48:54,870 winemaker and the winery. And so, like I said earlier, you know, my 791 00:48:54,902 --> 00:48:58,582 dad did some clair Bone and Churchill. I did a few. And 792 00:48:58,638 --> 00:49:02,382 whenever my back was against the wall to find something domestic that I thought would 793 00:49:02,398 --> 00:49:06,038 be interesting to show the club, I reached out to him. Yeah. And they always 794 00:49:06,086 --> 00:49:09,766 appreciated it. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. They always just thought, you know, thanks for calling. 795 00:49:09,830 --> 00:49:13,630 Maybe it was 24 months between or three years even before I would contact 796 00:49:13,702 --> 00:49:17,502 them, but they always had something, and they're always a 797 00:49:17,518 --> 00:49:20,910 little bit different than the other guys. You know, I always really appreciated that 798 00:49:20,942 --> 00:49:24,754 relationship. So, you know, we have a. We could talk again. 799 00:49:25,334 --> 00:49:28,606 I have to move on today. It's been a 800 00:49:28,630 --> 00:49:32,382 fascinating journey in your career. Yeah. 801 00:49:32,438 --> 00:49:35,206 And I wish you all the great luck. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. This 802 00:49:35,230 --> 00:49:39,014 industry brings to the table because it's fascinating and it's 803 00:49:39,054 --> 00:49:41,474 fun, and it's. I think 804 00:49:42,454 --> 00:49:46,206 Hinman, he was the winemaker at Yao 805 00:49:46,230 --> 00:49:50,022 Ming's place for a while, and he said, I meet amazing people, 806 00:49:50,118 --> 00:49:53,822 go to amazing places, drink amazing wine, eat amazing food. I may 807 00:49:53,838 --> 00:49:57,494 not make a lot of money, but you know what? It's not bad. 808 00:49:57,614 --> 00:50:01,438 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a fun industry to be in, 809 00:50:01,486 --> 00:50:04,950 and you work hard and there are 810 00:50:04,982 --> 00:50:08,806 challenges, but being around people that kind of love 811 00:50:08,830 --> 00:50:12,374 what they're doing and have a shared passion is always 812 00:50:12,414 --> 00:50:16,046 great. What's next? Today I'm headed down to the 813 00:50:16,070 --> 00:50:19,878 wine country in Long beach. My old. I was the domestic buyer at 814 00:50:19,886 --> 00:50:23,662 the wine, Randy Kemner. Yeah. So I worked with them for 815 00:50:23,678 --> 00:50:27,470 a year, and that's actually where I came up in my 816 00:50:27,502 --> 00:50:31,286 journey in wine, was learning about european wines by going to 817 00:50:31,310 --> 00:50:34,838 tastings there with Samantha, the champagne buyer, and GM 818 00:50:34,886 --> 00:50:38,390 there. And they've always been 819 00:50:38,542 --> 00:50:41,926 great to me. And it's always fun to go back and visit and pour the 820 00:50:41,950 --> 00:50:45,516 wines now that I'm out making wine. That's great. He's a great guy. Been doing 821 00:50:45,540 --> 00:50:49,164 this for a long time. Yeah. And talk about passion. You know, those folks are 822 00:50:49,204 --> 00:50:52,860 really passionate. And, you know, if you love champagne, if you love rose. 823 00:50:52,932 --> 00:50:56,356 That's definitely a place you gotta visit. I was 824 00:50:56,420 --> 00:50:59,624 fascinated to watch him because he was in the wholesale trade for a while and, 825 00:51:00,284 --> 00:51:03,548 you know, opening a store, brutal hours. 826 00:51:03,636 --> 00:51:07,036 Retail is retail. You know, he can't change that. And 827 00:51:07,140 --> 00:51:10,890 he's successful at it. And that's pretty unusual these days. So 828 00:51:11,002 --> 00:51:13,934 say hi to them for me. Will do. Cheers. Cheers. 829 00:51:22,834 --> 00:51:26,170 Thank you for listening to wine talks with Paul, Callum, Cary. And don't forget to 830 00:51:26,202 --> 00:51:29,354 subscribe because there's more great interviews on their way. 831 00:51:29,514 --> 00:51:32,834 Folks, have a great time out there in the wine world. Cheers.