Law
defines Chicha as something in the process of fermentation, so
would be still slightly sweet and sparkling because of fermentation.
Cider is a finished product.
And usually with not a wild fermentation, but using special yeast
to get a, a more refined product.
Hello, my name is Ria Windcaller and I am the producer and cider mc of this
weekly podcast where we speak with makers
Cider enthusiasts and folks within the cider trade from around the world play.
Bringing us into episode 486 of Cider Chat was Jose Antonio Alcalde.
He's a professor in Chile.
Just a renowned.
Person, speaker on the subject, you're gonna be hearing more about who he
is, what he does in Chile, because this is a prerecorded presentation
from Cycon 2025 that was held in Chicago, and that was last January.
We're coming up to CiderCon again here in Providence, Rhode Island.
It's an amazing presentation.
So last week's episode we had with Carlos Flores on the Edible
Forest, which is in Chile.
And this week we are hearing from this amazing panel, this discussion
of folks who came up from Chile, attended CiderCon, and did a
presentation about the culture chicha.
As you're hearing, uh, the professor speak on that topic.
Also getting into the different regions.
There's three primary regions that we're gonna be hearing about the Apple
varieties, the history of cider making, and the future of cider in Chile.
Uh, so I have my glass already here.
Uh, I'm, if you're on the YouTube channel for Cider Chat, you'll see me holding
this bottle up here, which is from Chiloé which is the island of Chiloé
And this is made by a cooperative, uh, all women.
And it's a lovely, lovely cider.
It's one of the ciders that was served at Cider Con during this panel discussion,
and so I'm getting primed up for this.
This is an amazing episode.
All the slides are synced with the audio from the presentation, so you
get to enjoy that if you're subscribed to the Cider Chat YouTube channel.
If you have any yet subscribed, then this is a good time to do that.
And if you don't know who I am, my name is Ria Windcaller I am the
cider mc, sometimes known as Cider Delilah, because I connect people
all over the world and myself.
It's just a, a joyous, uh, position to be in.
And I've been doing this podcast since 2015, the fall of 2015,
I've been involved in cider.
Ooh, going back to, uh, pre 1994, teaching, cider making for about 17 years.
Creating events, doing all that kind of jazz, and also working other
full-time job of course, because, yeah, well that's another story.
Anyways, uh, back in 2015, I launched this podcast and we're now in season 10.
We're coming up to 500 episodes.
Whew.
And, uh, and this has led me on this amazing journey here, meeting you
out there in Ciderville more often than I could ever possibly hope for.
So, and that's a good thing.
That's compliment.
Anyways, I'm gonna have to get my headphones on here,
get a little geared up.
We're gonna take a break and when I come back I have a wee bit of news
from out and about in ciderville
Coming up, the first week of February is Cider Con that's gonna be taking
place in Providence, Rhode Island.
And this particular episode, the feature presentation was recorded
last year at CiderCon in Chicago.
It's always an experience, and the year before was in.
Portland, Oregon.
That was what we called, like Ice Con.
It was, oh, what Amazing trip.
Oh my God, that blew me away out.
Uh, no one, no one who attended that Cider Con in Portland will ever forget that.
Uh, I guarantee you.
And each year is an experience, and certainly last year was amazing,
getting to hang out with the Chilean panel, getting to record
that last week's episode with.
Was one of the panelists that you'll be hearing is Carlos Flores.
He did an amazing talk on the Edible Forest which is again at
the Cider Tap YouTube channel.
You can see the full presentation.
Just a magnificent presentation.
Highly recommend listening and watching that this year.
Uh, we're in Providence, Rhode Island, so it's on the East coast and they're
always kind of moving it along.
And it is the annual trade conference for Cider Con.
So do check it out.
I hope you can make it.
It's both for cider enthusiasts and folks in the cider trade, and people are
coming in from other parts of the world.
I'm not sure quite where, but.
Once we get there, we'll find out.
So that's taking place in February.
Then, you know, as I said, this is Wassail time.
I'm seeing the events everywhere.
I think this weekend I have a Wassail event, so I'm really looking forward
to that, and that is a magnificent time to gather in the orchards,
subside, sing songs, and bring celebration and good fortune for
the season to come for the orchard.
So yes, Wassail is happening.
Now, then we roll into April and I'm gonna be heading to the Cider Salon
in Hungary that is being really, uh, spearheaded by Ancha Gergely
of the Abiliget Garden Project.
Highly recommend you follow her on Instagram.
I just saw her doing.
Like a toboggan down a hill in the middle of the night.
Oh, Ancha you are just, she's just amazing person.
That's gonna be quite an event.
So that's gonna be taking place April 18th.
Do follow her online.
Then straight after that I'm gonna be heading to the UK
to lead the UK cider tour.
We're calling it Blossom Time because that is a peak blossom time for the
orchards there and fingers crossed it.
The harmonic convergence all works together, so we're just just covered
in the aroma of blossoms everywhere.
The bouquet, both in our glass and out of the glass will be there and
hanging out with some cool people.
We have folks attending this from both Canada and the US
I'm totally psyched about that.
There are still seats available, so do check it out at the totally cider links.
At cider chat.com so you could get all the info there.
And then in the fall is the French cider tour.
The first one was lead in 2018, and then there's been a number
of french cider tours since, and this is an epic, epic tour.
You know, look, we're gonna have a.
A dinner with Eric Bordelet.
That's always kinda like our premier at the end, but everything leading up to
that, hanging out with Etienne Dupont of Domaine Dupont, uh, Agathe of Manoir
d'Apreval, uh, going to a generational farm, 14 generations and counting.
I've been part of this farm that's with the Giard family.
And then going to Saint Malo and Mont Saint Michel
Michel, which is a world UNESCO heritage site.
The French tour is mind boggling.
That is also going live now for reservations.
So if you want any information on any of the Totally Cider Tours,
send an email to info@ciderchat.com.
The.
It's time now for our featured presentation
prerecorded at Cider Con 2025.
You'll be brought into this episode by Eli Shanks, who I believe is currently
working in the US as a cider maker.
He is also in collaboration with Punto de Fierro working with Carlos
Flores there, who's also on the panel.
You'll hear from Rene Galindo from TenCai Sidra and Fabian Lara.
Who is a brewer, a fermentor, and works with the Ministry of Agriculture, I
believe in the financial department.
He collaborates with Renee making some ciders.
You'll, you'll hear a little bit about that.
You're gonna be hearing from Gicella Gonzalez.
She is the president of the Chilowé Cooperative and that
is on the island of Chiloé
We'll also hear from Jose.
Antonio Alcalde.
He is a professor who is gonna be bringing us right into some of the history,
and it's just absolutely fascinating.
So without further ado, let's all grab a glass and join this chat Prerecorded once
again at CiderCon 2025 and it was titled Chilean Cider Honoring Rich Traditions.
Hi everyone.
Welcome to the Chilean panel.
I'm gonna start by introducing all of our speakers today.
First, my name is Eli Shanks.
I'm co-founder of Punta de Fierro Fine Cider in Valdivia Chile, and
I'm currently the head cider maker at Western Cider in Missoula, Montana.
First we have Gicella, who is president of the Cooperative Chilowe, which is
a cooperative of 16 families, on the island of Chiloé in the south of Chile.
We have Rene Galindo, who is a third generation cider maker who.
Lives and works on his family's orchard in TrufTruf in the Araucanía region of Chile.
Next we have Carlos Flores, who is co-founder of Punte di Fierro Fine
Cider and owner and manager of 130 year old Orchard in Valdivia, Chile.
Next we have Fabian Lara.
Fabian is a cider and beer consultant.
He also works in InDap, which is the Chilean Ministry of
Agriculture, small Family Farms.
Outreach program.
It is very important supporting all of the farmers who make this cider
possible, who protect the apples that you're gonna hear about today.
And so we're very happy to have Fabian with us, not only representing the
government, but also as a cider maker.
He's also the cider maker for Tercer Ciclo which is one of the ciders
that you have in front of you.
And finally, but not definitely not least, we have Jose Antonio Alcalde, professor
from the University of Catholica.
And one of the most influential people in Chile when it comes
to fermenting beverages.
Pretty much everybody who's, anybody who's fermented in Chile has gone to one
of his courses, and he'll be presenting today a presentation about Chilean and
Apples, the history of cider in Chile.
Once his presentation is concluded, we will present each of the cider
and tell you a little bit about them.
Thank you.
Eli Chile, as you know, is in South America.
Long country between the Pacific Ocean to the West, the Andes
and Argentina to the East.
And we could see Chile as a mirror image of the US west coast, including Canada
and also part of Mexico, the Peninsula, the Cortes, around the Latitude 40 South.
We have three regions of cider making.
From North to south, the area of Araucanía , which Temuco would be the
city in the center of that area, the region of Los Rios, where Valdivia
is the capital, and then the region of Los Lagos, where the big island of
Chiloé is, where Gisela is representing that area, this special big island
in, in fact, it's an archipelago.
Where a lot of varieties of apples and different ecotype are still present.
We will go through Origins, geography, varieties, production
style traditions, so we can sort out why Chilean cider is so special.
As you all may know, domestic apple comes from Malus sieversii In, um, the Himalayas
of China to the West and through the, the Silk Route it hybridized with two
other wild species, Malus Oriental and Malus Sylvestris until it reached Europe.
Our apples come from Spain.
We had them as early as 1570.
Via Peru mainly that was the route that the Spanish colony would,
would bring things down to Chile rather than by the other side that
was dominated by the Portuguese.
A cold, rainy temperate climate modulated or defined by the humble current, a very
cold current coming from Antarctica.
Would make apples flourish in that area of south of Chile until it became wild.
So a lot of ecotypes were developed spontaneously, and this is different
from other apple growing areas of the southern hemispheres such as Australia
and New Zealand, where warm ocean currents would define their climate.
We would see that temperature and rainfall makes Valdivia.
The center of this site of production area very similar to areas such
as Oregon or the West country.
We would say that we have a, a bright summer with less rainfall like in
Oregon, and temperatures not as high, but more alike like the west country.
Apple arrived to give continuity to a long tradition of pre-Colombian.
Elaboration of fermented beverages, which included many species that were replaced
by apples in the southern area of Chile.
Charles Darwin and Claude Gay documented big extensions of apple forests
from which Chicha was made by the Mapuche people of very good quality.
With the years and centuries, cider became the staple drink
in the southern part of Chile.
In the northern or central part of Chile, it would be grape Chicha,
but then cider consumption declined because of the arrival of beer
with, uh, German immigrants and a more industrial light production.
So cider making remained only in rural areas.
Until we can say it, it is reviving to become part of the craft movement.....
orchards that have survived to our days from north to south, the
Biobío region north of La Araucanía.
We still find some trees in some orchards called quintas.
Quintas are the small areas where trees are enclosed.
We'll see why then Araucanía . We can see all trees still
surviving Los Rios and Los Lagos.
This is nearby the Archipelago or by the seaside in big island of Chiloé apples.
After 450 years since the arrival of apples to Chile, we can see
a lot of variation in types.
You see differences in shape, size, color, which also.
Mean a huge variation in sweetness, tartness tannin
content and flavor profile.
A catalog from the most popular varieties in the big island of Chiloé is available
online in Spanish for you to investigate.
Big work has been done there to gather time of harvest, sizes, flavors, and.
Most, most common uses for all these varieties.
There are at least 17 varieties described, and it is still growing and
much more to include in this catalog.
Let's go through the steps.
In traditional cider making, harvest is done manually by members of the family.
Some people sell their apples for cider making.
They don't make their own cider, most people would produce their
own apples and press them.
Grinding and pressing is mostly done with self-made equipment.
Mixture of wooden equipment and metal.
You can see there in the center, a screw that is carved in very hardwood.
To operate old style presses that are still in use.
Hydraulic presses are also used and electrically operated, and as
elsewhere, pressing is done with meshed bags, piled mesh bags.
Then fermentation is done in.
Different types of vessels.
The finishing of traditional Chicha or cider is made in pop bottles to get a
sparkling, almost dried pro product, which is sold in those same containers.
Some still cider is still made in varieitesrels made of native woods.
Mainly Raulí.
A species that is native to Chile (Nothofagus alpina)
and Alerce our redwood there.
That is one of the oldest species still alive in Chile.
Our rustic in farm and small scale, all family members are involved in some
part of the production of of cider.
Chicha is well inserted into.
Ethnic rights and festivities.
Local people gather around rustic varieitess called Chicharías.
Cider is also sold in local markets in Reutilized containers at prices
as low as a dollar per liter.
But cider's not only in these spaces I have described, it's also growing as
part of the gastronomy scene opening opportunities for modern cider makers.
So events where cider is, the protagonist are growing steadily and Chilean cider
is opening to the world, participating in competitions, gaining good recognition
in events like GLINTCAP or Sagardo Forum.
So we think we have a future.
I will ask Fabian to.
Come and tell you what is the near future of Chile cider.
We have a, a competition coming so he can explain.
Hi
everyone.
In July have a competition in Chile, in the south in Temuco.
If you like to visit Chile, the first international competition, uh, for
us and the first, all these either Latin American competition and it's
so happy that your cidery ship entries or you visit, uh, come to Chile.
Drink cider.
Cheap cider, and good cider.
July would be the date for the Pomum Cup.
We also need
judges.
It's the 17th to the 20th of July.
Fairs regarding cider in Chile are in our autumn, so it'll be April and May.
So if you are very anxious, you can go straight away.
Chiloé has a wonderful cider and cheese week event the week before Easter.
In the area of Chile.
And Valdivia also has a, a good festivity where you can see all what
has been happening for, for a long time.
So we invite you to Chile and Eli please.
Yeah, that the festival that we also participated in in Valdivia was enormous.
There were 18,000 visitors to the Cider Festival in Valdivia Chile.
So that's a definitely a don't miss if you can make it.
So now we're gonna present a little bit about each of the Ciders.
I'm gonna be doing a little bit of translating when necessary.
We're gonna start with Punta de Fierro, which is on the left here, Carlos.
Is gonna talk about how we
make that.
Hello?
Hi everyone.
Well, this is Punta de Fierro It's a field blend that we made
in the territory of Valdivia
We use the apple that we have in apple orchard that apple orchard
has more than a hundred years old.
And we were together with the community, mainly women, for made this cider.
The name Punta de Fierro, it's the common name.
Yeah, co colloquial name of one of the apple that we use in our blend, so
it's still, and also age, two years.
Enjoy.
Thank you.
Next
we have Muerte Fria y Serena by TenCai.
Rene Galindo is the owner and maker at TenCai.
He's gonna tell you a little bit about his cider.
Hello.
Sorry that I don't speak English, Eli will help me with the translation.
This is a cider that's inspired by keeving
It's
a single variety cider from the Manzano de fierro
apple s Marga.
It's a late harvest.
Bittersweet
apple.
In order to produce this cider, he does an oxidative maceration, which
with enzymes that promote aromas
fer.
Then he does a spontaneous fermentation with the yeast
that is available on the apples.
The cider forms a Chapeau Brun, but he doesn't do the entire process of
Keeving because the goal was a dry cider,
so it was carbonated as a Pet Nat and then it was disgorged.
Yes.
Enjoy Gracias.
Next we have Gicella from the corporate aa, Chilowé.
There's a W in it.
Chilowé, it's not on the sheet, but there is, and she's gonna
tell you about her cider.
Good morning.
The cider that we are making in the island of Chiloé has the
characteristic of being made of multiple apples that are from that area.
In particular in the area where I live, there are a lot of reinette and
gravenstien apples and other sweet apples
ferment.
It's a natural cider that finished its fermentation in the bottle.
This is a community project that brought together 16 different families from the
island of Chile to produce this together.
Thank you.
Finally, we have Fabian Lara who made this the Ultima Cosecha, the
final harvest, and he's gonna tell you a little bit about that cider.
Hello again.
This is Ultima Cosecha.
Ultima is co-fermented product with honey and four varieties of apples,
uh, traditional heirloom, apple variety from Chile, and have our
back sweetening with uh, same honey.
It's a local honey, very special local honey in the, uh, Mapuche area, uh, from
the indigenous people for this region, and have a secondary fermentation in bottles.
Maybe you can see difference in clarity between the, the glasses is for, uh.
Like a not nut, but it have a back sweetening and a slight tea.
Put the sugar and slow caramelization, low carbonation and have a sweet,
but not too sweet for, for us.
Uh, and have a character of the char apples traditional, these,
these apples is, but it is for, for a acidic malic acid with a honey.
This is the idea.
While you are digging into those ciders, we wanna open the floor for questions.
When you ask your question, please specify if you're asking it for a specific person.
We have Cristobel with us.
If you wanna wave to everybody, he'll be translating for the two panel
members who don't speak English.
So they will be getting your question even if I'm not repeating it in Spanish.
So are there any questions?
Yes.
At what elevation are your orchards?
I know wine in Chile often grows high in the mountains, so I was
wondering where, at what elevation each of your orchards are.
And my second question is about the varieitesrels.
And I think we all know what French oak and American Oak does to Cider,
but what does Chilean Oak do?
Well that area elevation is not as ample, I would say closeness to the seas
is, is goes inland, is a thin country.
But Rauli grows yes, at higher than 800 meters.
What's about more than 2000 feet high, but it's the mountains.
This high is close to where the, the varieitesrels are needed.
I
can speak to our orchard in Valdivia.
It's very close to sea level, but one of the other orchards
we work with is in the same.
Plantation really in the same group of different apple orchards, and it's a lot
higher up in the same hill, and we are harvesting apples almost a month and a
half later from the same varieties, just within the same area, which elongates
a little bit the production cycle.
As for the varieitesrels, Rene is using varieitesrels in his production
and I believe could speak to the effects that they may have on the
cider.
I recently
began using varieitesrels
in my production
ENC Chile.
I was using a French oak varieitesrel with that previously had wine in it.
Okay.
He thinks he's not the one to answer this question 'cause all
his varieitesrels are American and French oak that had whiskey in them.
Okay.
Fabian can
answer the question about native Chilean wis.
The, the use of the Rauli wood.
And another Chilean wood is only for the container.
Don't have a, the idea notice for aroma really re reuse many
times, uh, to, to a cider.
It's only for preserve the microbe in the varieitesrel to fermenting.
Uh, many people, the traditional people make a cider with a, like a
natural fermentation, how to say.
And it's very important for, for the.
Culture in the varieitesrel?
Not, not for good aroma or good flavor, only the container.
Elizabeth,
could you explain to us the relationship between cider and Chicha and the
fermented, fully fermented out apple brandy and also maybe touch on
the cultural significance of that?
Yes,
thank you.
Chicha and cider are the same.
Chicha is a name that the Spanish took it from Panama, and then
they said all the, the beverages.
That they were knowing going down back to Chile would be called Chicha.
So it's not a, a local name, but it's a name with which a cider is known
in, in that area it's a little bit disrespective like being a Chichero
is not like being a cider maker, but we want that to, to, to change so
we can be proud of, of our Chicha.
And law defines Chicha as something in the process of
fermentation, so would be still.
Slightly sweet and sparkling because of fermentation.
Cider is a, a finished product and usually with not a wild
fermentation, but using special yeast to get a, a more refined product.
But we want that to change to, to can,
we can all speak from experience of having tried very good and.
Completely fermented chicha's aged Chicha.
There's really, at the end of the day, no big difference between Chicha and
cider, except if you call yourself a Chicha maker, it's because you
come from a Chicha making tradition, and that's the word that you use.
Like what is kind of the general consumer perception of cider in
Chile, I guess would be my And, and, and do you have to do much combating
to have a higher value product?
We have all the same challenges that you deal with in the United States
in terms of people not knowing what we mean when we say cider.
Plus the added difficulty of the fact that everyone who knows about Chicha Associates
cider with Chicha and associates it with costing a dollar and being sold on the
side of the road and sometimes being very good, but sometimes being very not good.
And so we have that additional difficulty and for that reason.
Everyone who's on this panel has in some way or another, tried to distinguish
their product through packaging mostly.
But yes, in order to be able to differentiate not only from every
other type of alcohol that's on the shelf right now, but also from Chicha.
Everyone has made some kind of effort through design or through packaging in
order to show that this is something that, in our case, took two years to make, or in
another way differentiates it from Chicha.
I should also add that we are, as part of the craft movement, cider
is entering the new consumers as a world, new world ciders.
So we're making the effort so traditional ciders are recognized
and, and well appreciated.
Despite of having tannins and, and, and high tartness and all
that, we don't want to lose that.
So it's very difficult to educate the consumer in that sense because
they are getting good and new world cider, very clean, like champagne in,
in, in crafts, in beer varieitess.
So that's also a, a huge challenge.
Question to the panelists are whether there are any specific varieties
that they're really excited by maybe making single varieties from and
what those apples are and, and what their characteristics are like.
I know that I can speak to, while they're figuring out what they want to share.
We work with a 13 different orchards.
They're all female run orchards that are around our orchard, and
that's very normal, traditional that the female, the women run the
orchards and the men make the Chicha.
So that's like a traditional division of labor that they have
in the countryside in Chile.
And one of the orchards has a whole row of the most tannic apples that I and I have
been to the west country, the most tannic apples that I have ever put in my mouth.
You cannot even like.
varieitesely bite them.
And we have a, a couple fermentors of that going right now.
I would love to have enough volume to be able to do single variety trials for
those ones, but they are something else.
So for me that's something that, and they, to be clear of the 200 something
individual varieties that have been identified and isolated, most of
them don't have names, so I also can't tell you what their names are.
Yeah.
And these.
Really difficult because the people call the same name but um, different varieties
in Chile for example, in the case of the Limón or Limona, we have a small limona
and big limona is obviously is another.
Trees Obviously's another varieites.
But the people can limona.
Uh, and if you make with a singular variety, really, I,
I ask what variety really.
But in the case, for example, the Ultima Cosecha is making with,
uh, Fierro, Manzano, Fierro apple, Fierro Apple is very strong.
Apple, uh ha have a sharp character.
And, uh, a slight tannic not too much a tannic character for this apple
and have a airxxxx aroma and floral.
This flora is.
Mix it with the honey, obviously, but it's very traditional for this.
Apple have this character, uh, by really in each region.
The names is Chen.
I, I don't sure that is the right name of each region is same from the other.
It's difficult, but the people in in Chile multiplicate the, the Apples varieties.
By seed and you know, and have, for example, Rene found one, apple is amazing
for one cider, very tannic, but it's very different for the other beverages.
The traditional orchard in Chile is like a wild char.
And it is, it's really, eh.
Many ciders Mix it.
Mix it.
Now Apple,
I would say that names to remember are Limóna that you tried in the cider share.
Fierro is also important and Caumuesta is our bitter sharp thinking of keeving
and, and that kind of cider making.
So.
Those are the main, we would like to sort this out and, and so we can put names
that everybody recognizes in Chile, but there's still some work to do on that.
The left bottom apple is
called,
I've tried
a single variety version of that Apple.
Del
is perfect.
Okay.
It grows.
It grows by the ocean in the Araucanía, and it picks up a lot of salinity and it
has high acidity, and he really likes it.
For the traditional method,
the yellow apple on the bottom right.
It's called Plateau.
It's very aromatic and it has a lot of sugar.
He uses it to make ice cider because it has crazy high bricks.
The yellow apple in the photograph is Limóna, which was just mentioned.
It's an acidic variety that is iconic in the Valdivia region.
And the most special apple that he finds that he uses is the Fierro.
It's the last apple that you harvest and it has more tannin
than a lot of the other ones.
And this Murete Fria y Serena is a single variety of that.
Variety.
Mm-hmm.
Thank you.
Do you all experience the combination of other Chicha or other local
fruit working itself into the cider?
As expressions of localities, like Maqui berries or anything along those
lines blending into your cider, or is it always just pure to the apple?
Do you know that Chile have many fruit production?
The cherry is very typical.
The berry is very typical from Chile.
We also have many other different Chile and fruit really.
For example, in the case of the Rene, they use strawberries in in, in his cider.
And the raisins use the raisin.
The use of the raisin is very traditional.
The people put in the cocoa bottles.
You, you say the, the photo of the cocoa bottles, the people put the
raisin into, to the calcification to, to conceive of this.
But in, in, not this really traditional, in the case of the Chicha, use
other fruits, but Antonio say.
Chicha is really colored for beverage, really.
You can have a grape Chicha or another Chicha, but it's
not traditional to mix it.
In the case of the Chicha, the, the fruits only apple Chicha, but it now is also very
interesting in Chile, the use of Quince Quince is very traditional for us, uh,
can eat directly and using in cider too.
The tannic char character of the Quince is very important to the balance.
Many ciders and in, in the case the innovation.
Now, the Sidrerías the, the cideries is use another fruits,
but not for newer styles either.
No, it's from the.
The (vinegar?) for the fruits, uh, and all the, the fermentation.
But now many people, innovation, uh, with every Antonio make a Quince
cider, for example.
I would say that for making rose cider Maqui is used.
You mentioned it.
It's a berry that we have.
It's a high in tannins as well, and a lot of EINs.
I would like to link this with the workshop yesterday morning about tannins.
Is that.
Southern Hemisphere has this ozone layer, and Chile has a very thin ozone layer.
So if UV levels in the northern hemisphere are six in the
south part of Chile, it's 10.
So having clear days in summer increases.
UV and with all the effect that we are studying about that increasing anthocyanin
production, but also other polyphenols.
You talked about how the apples had a Spanish origin, but many of them
were planted from seed Do we have any more information tracking the
history of those apples and whether they were table or cider apples?
Yes.
That's my passion to discover that we would have to go back to writers of the
of those days describing in old Spanish.
I wouldn't say that there would be eating apples or dessert
apples as we know them today.
I think those varieties have not more than a hundred years.
Becoming big and juicy and, and they were very soft in the
pulp not too, too long ago.
So Apples arrived, they are described there.
They don't talk about varieties specific varieties.
Nowadays.
They are linking Limóna with Limón de Monte, from a Asturias.
We don't think it is linked.
It, it looks like because of the size and the color and, but being
from the Pippin, it would be.
Quite different from tracing back a lineage to that variety from
Asturias would be very difficult.
We then have varieties that arrived with the Germans Gravenstein.
I think it's also an important variety here.
I've seen some ciders made with that single variety.
It is all over the world.
It's look in in Chile.
Grows very much in a profile like Fuji, apple, but has a very
bad post harvest conservation, so you have to press it soon.
I think that the good thing about Chile is that we have we, we have all
these E, these ecotypes, the area of Chile made that cider apples survived
better than table apples, and that people would be selecting them for
cider making rather than for eating.
But still, they are some varieties that are used in Chiloé.
They make empanadas with apples, and they have a special variety for that use.
There are apples for strudel.
Reinette variety also arrived to Chile.
We don't think there is a linkage between Reinetta, another important cider
variety with the the German Renette.. So genetic studies are underway, so we will
sort out what kind of lineages or big families are connected with these apples.
But the important thing is that for about three, 300 years.
Chile was closely linked to Spain and not open to other commerce, so we don't think
we, we got other sources of apples rather than from Spain for 300 years or more.
Then in the 19th century, other table or desert apples began to arrive to Chile.
Pamela Villagra, our traveling Chilean gastronomic journalist told
me that I would be remiss to not mention There she is in the back.
The story of the Apples right in the zone where we produced Punta de Fierro, which
was an area that was one of the stops on the trip around the horn when people were
shipping goods from the east coast to the west coast of the United States and back.
And that area was subject to a huge amount of pirate activity
and the entire area was.
Taken over by pirates, and so it was depopulated, not just
the settler population, but also the native population.
That was in the early to mid 18 hundreds.
And then when it was repopulated after that, there were
different groups of settlers.
And so those apples that are right in the zone that we've been talking about with
those little small orchards came down with people of Dutch descent who were
coming from Peru to repopulate that area.
So there have been many waves of European migration to Chile and.
Most of the time they were bringing apples with them.
We have one question at the back.
Most European cider apples that we end up with over here are extremely
susceptible to fire blight.
Is that something you guys have to deal with down there and is the stuff you have
down there susceptible to fire blight?
Gicella was showing me a photograph this morning.
That might be fire blight.
Yeah, it's happening.
She associates that with climate, climate change.
I would say, well, Chile has a, it's a great, a big exporter of
table apples, so the varieties we use for that and agrochemicals
that are used and and all that.
But that type of protection or management is not applied
to cideries or cider apples.
So I think the good thing is that we've seen this genotypes evolve.
In an environment without pesticides, so they are naturally resistant or
tolerant to these kind of things.
Maybe new arrivals of of diseases might be a problem for what we have,
but having these 450 years of, of adaptation, it's, I think it's something
we've gained in having adaptation to climate and also to diseases.
In the last few days, I've been taken by.
The diversity and creativity of the ciders that you guys have presented,
is that really only the case of the modern, of the, a new generation
of cider makers, or has that always been the case in, in Chile?
Rene is a good example for the new generation of, of the cider maker.
This are third generation of his family.
Uh, and now maybe, uh, Antonio talk about this.
He, the new generation of, of cider maker is very close to the craft beer.
Uh, many brewers is making cider, but it's not to like, to
make in cider like a new world.
Cider is a recognize the traditional, recognize the, we have a.
Cider of trees.
This is very special for us and now the people to learn about the traditional
ways to making traditional cider of Chile.
We have almost 10 new cider people, young people, to making
cider and preserving the culture.
And to be clear, there are a lot of types of traditional cider in Chile.
There are.
Innovations that people are doing within just chicha's just like people who are
not associating themselves with the modern cider movement that we're part of.
And it's, it would be a whole day's conversation to talk about all the
different ways people make Chicha.
How much cross pollination or collaboration there is with the wine
making community down there and Chicha and cider production, like, are you finding
that there's a lot of cross collaboration or interest coming across the aisle from
winemakers in the region into historical preservation of cider traditions?
Say a good example for this.
This is a teacher in the university and teach about the wine makers and
the cider maker, the meat maker and the craft beer maker and many enologist.
They have a apple cider the trees and a few wineries have a cider.
I think in one example have a, a good berry, uh, in Chile,
and the enologist is cross and.
The, the, the community of the craft, uh, beverage really not is too big.
It is small.
The people now, and really collaboration.
For example, in the case of the Ultima Cosecha, this is a collaboration
really with Rene, me and a brewery, and collaboration with brewery, with wineries.
It is it close.
And, uh, for us it's very easy to find, for example, uh, reuse, uh, barrles
for the winery and collaboration with grape, for example, uh, we, we have many
grapes varieties and this responsibility for us and now the community of the
beverage not is wine craft beer.
Now this mix up really,
that's a great question.
Going back you would notice that since moving across a long country.
Very hilly and it's was not easy.
So the traditions on wine were separate from the traditions,
from from Apple making.
There is some overlap in the region of Biobio It'll be very interesting to go and
see what methods and knowledges shared by.
People making apple Chicha or grape Chicha.
I would say that in Chile, it didn't happen the same as in the Napa Valley
where you would have wineries together with brewing companies front to front.
I would say that we had long time of this new beer craft movement was
back to back to the wine industry.
But now students being formed with all these techniques, they are
interlinking methods of filtration and, and doing things like dry hopping with
ciders and using honey as in meads.
So it's a lot of creativity and I think we are, we have a public that
is growing on trying new things, but also things that have sense.
Not just creating anything, sense and tradition.
Where are the young people are, have a this hot, hot spot of,
of, of traditions to go back to and recreate and that and that.
I think that is in inspiring us and since the public is so small, there
would like other people outside Chile to, to appreciate that.
Your trees, are they mostly older or are you starting to see more of the modern
growing systems like the tall trellis?
Spindle system, Trello systems.
And then my second question is, I would be absolutely heartbroken if
this is one of the few times that I ever got to try your beautiful ciders.
Do you export to the United States?
I am gonna start right away with that second part of that question.
Part of the reason why we formed this group is we are looking
for partners to help us bring some cider to the United States.
There are a lot of great options, a lot of different markets that we could tap
into, and we would really love to work with somebody if they're interested in
working with us to start bringing cider.
To the states if anybody's interested in all at all in that,
please get in touch with me.
As for the orchard questions, I'm gonna point to Carlos and to Rene
about your question about the apples, where in my case, in Punta de Fierro,
we use apple trees that has more than a hundred years old because they're
in the territory and it supposed that there is a recipe high in that orchard.
Those orchard has there has around.
30 trees in each orchard is half acres.
So we collect that, that Aprils once a year and we produce
this kind of, uh, cider.
But we know that in the territory there is people that is working
with all kind of apple orchard.
They are planting new apple orchards.
So it's okay.
They are.
Reproducing that kind of apple orchard in the territory and
our case, it's a, a field plan
image.
On the right
is an 80 or a hundred year old orchard.
Those are the real cider orchards of Chile, but those trees are
disappearing in the last few years and nobody's planting new ones.
Fruit.
They prefer to cut those trees down and plant strawberries or other vegetables.
The second cider that you tried is called cold and serene death.
Because of that,
this tree is necessary to preserve and sell really cider, and we need to increase
to sell cider in the world where we
live, all of those orchards were in danger.
The ones that we work with we're end danger being cut down mainly
because people wanted to sell those pieces of their property
to people who wanted to build.
Like summer homes and stuff like that is very common where we are.
That people just cut down all the trees and lot out the land.
And we're very, we feel very proud of the fact that of the orchards that we work
with, all of them have started to replant trees that have previously fallen down.
All of them have recognized their orchards now due to the fact that they're working
with us and we're able to buy their apples at a higher price, have recognized
their orchard as one of the main sources of income for their family systems.
And so that is really something that is fundamental to what
we're doing here in this project.
To compliment the answer to your question is that I think we're not fully
aware how the distances between trees and, and the, the, the structure of a
orchard has an impact on cider making.
So people are getting the same or Renewing or, or replanting with the
same genotypes, but in a modern way like pedestrian alleys, and they're not aware
that that makes or doesn't have the advantages of the old cider orchards that.
Are low in nitrogen and the slower fermentations and all that.
So I think we have to work on that and, and convince people that they
are replanting in small plots and they want many trees to produce
early at second, third, or fourth year instead of growing the trees.
The old ways
and also I want to add that this kind of old apple orchard has
a name, various, deeply studied by the University of Valdivia
They call it heritage apple orchards.
So that kind of operation has around 30 different kind of tree
apple trees in the same territory.
You can find at between 10 or 20 kind of apple trees in the same area because
that was the recipe that the guy, that plant put that plant a hundred years ago.
And also you, you need to find the recipe because some of
those tree are for cooking.
The apple trees are for cooking, so you need to figure out the best way to.
That harvests at the right apple trees, that kind of heritage
apple orchard are very wild.
Some of the trees has more than 40 feet tall.
Um, a lot of mosses in the branches and some of them are in the
ground, but still giving apples, so it is very beautiful landscape.
I'm interested in the process by which you were able to form a cooperative
and what the challenges were in bringing 16 families together.
The motivation to form the cooperative comes from the fact that the agriculture
in Chilowe is very small scale
re.
So in order to have more of an impact, we had to get together and associate
to become a cooperative.
We wanted to show our biggest, most valuable cultural values.
Which has a lot to do with the huge biodiversity that there is
not only in apples, but also in other plants and animals in Chiloé.
Uh,
also the quality because all of the agriculture that's done on the island
is mainly agroecological plantations
important.
One difficulty is to be able to take care of all of the
different parts of the production.
Is that while we are producing, we are also making sure that we are not
losing any of the ecotype of Apple.
At the same time, we had to learn how to make a higher quality product in order
to open up more markets in the region.
And one of the big issues that we have is that the people who are still in
the countryside, who are staying in the countryside, are getting older
and older, and they can no longer necessarily do all of the work necessary
to maintain their, their orchards
and their production.
I want to add, don't forget that this place is an island.
Uh, without a bridge and with Rainforest Lakes River.
So the biodiversity in that place is enormous.
It's beautiful place.
Where, where are you guys seeing success with craft cider in Chile
and how is that market developing and, and how much of a present is, is
cider compared to beer and, and wine?
The main source of sales is direct from the cider to the public.
In the last few years, a few, um, bars, especially beer bars, have
started to distribute cider as well.
It's, there are a lot of wine bars in Santiago, but it's very hard to
enter because they don't understand the cider and they find faults like
Brett that were actually intentional.
Some cideries have managed to export at the Latin American
level, for example, to Brazil.
It's very difficult to sell directly to consumer normal consumers.
Because they don't understand what cider is and they prefer beer and kombucha.
Our cider house, we produce around 2000 gallon per year.
It's not too much that we can do with the apple that we have in the territory,
so we decide as a Punta de Fierro cider to sell our cider like a wine.
That is why we are using that kind of bottle.
And the rest is still also.
So the idea was to use that quantities, not too much to pairing in some
restaurant in Patagonia or or Santiago the capitol City because we think
that it's, uh, the best pairing that we can use sometime for some meals.
For example, in Patagonia, we have a lot of, uh, lamb.
Lamb pork is a beautiful option if you want to pairing.
So that was our decision because we don't have too much bottle for ourself.
We have time
for one more question.
I feel honored to have the last question.
Hey, I'm wondering with the traditional orchards, these old orchards, is there
a generational gap now with the kids not wanting to carry on the tradition?
And letting these farms, you know, just get plowed over
because money's more important.
Is that a problem there?
Because I've seen it in Europe with some cideries and breweries as well.
In our case, that is why we are working in a line as a Apple wine.
So that is why we're working in that line, because we want to improve the price.
Because there is a huge story in all those ciders that is beautiful.
That is why we are here telling you our story.
And also in our case, we are trying to pay better for each Apple
work together with the community.
And also we open a summer school in our apple orchard is a edible,
apple orchard edible forest re.
So.
Today, you can see in summer kids playing around of our heritage apple orchard
So we are working together with the university and also the government to
improve this, this business and show the story that we have in this territory.
But the first job is to show that to the people from Chile to the Chilean people.
The reason why is because, yes, effectively like the average
age in the Chilean countryside, every year goes up by one year.
Pretty much.
It's only an exodus.
People are, there are a few examples of people coming back to the
countryside, but it's a, it's a dire situation and that's why each of
us are here doing what we're doing.
Well, I would love to add that mainly are women that are working on that.
Because they are saving keep, keep saving, that old apple orchard.
That is beautiful job.
So thanks.
Thanks women.
Yeah.
And just as a few closing remarks, I want to talk about what's next as
Cosichi Our main pillars in order to be able to achieve our mission of
making Chile into the cider capital of Latin America are through education.
We want to educate.
Bring all of this incredible science and knowledge about cider making that's
been done in the US and the UK to Chile to help people understand how they can
improve their ciders with our native fruit and through international connections.
So we hope to bring Chilean ciders as much as we can to international forums, but
also to bring all of you down to Chile.
Working with Ria, making a cider tour, doing all kinds of different things that
we could do together to be able to bring everybody down to Chile and through
showing Chilean cider on the International Forum, hopefully show Chileans that
they have something really special.
Find the show notes for this year episode by going to cider chat.com.
Look up episode 486 or put in the little search box that you'll find there.
You type it in and you'll see something like Chilean Cider and Up will come
this episode and some other ones.
Yes, we are following Chile along and working on getting cider chat
down there, so do stay tuned.
Hit the Follow button, subscribe to Cider Chat for all the different updates coming.
And don't forget.
While you're online, make sure that you check out the, uh,
upcoming Totally cider tours.
I would love to raise a glass with you out and about in Ciderville
And with that, I leave you here.
This is Ria Windcaller
Signing off for now.
Looking forward to seeing you in Ciderville