Tiffany(00:00):
Welcome to today's episode of The Money Sessions. I am your host, Tiffany McLain, founder of the company, Lean In Make Bank, where we help therapists get real about their financial situation and understand how to set and charge fees appropriately and not play out their unconscious family trauma in business. Now this episode, we're doing something a little bit different in that we're doing a two-parter. We're doing a two-part series with our guest, Jesse Kauffman. He's a therapist who works with ADHD dads and charges premium fees. And in this series of Back to Back, we're gonna learn both about Jesse's journey, going from working in a hospital setting to his own private practice, and ultimately going from charging, you know, 1 65 per session with a ton of anxiety to charging over $300 per session. That's what we're gonna be talking about in this first episode. In the second episode, we're gonna be talking about a licensing complaint that was lobbied against Jesse in regards to his premium fees.
Tiffany(01:13):
Oh, if you're somebody who is terrified of the board wondering if fees are ethical, you, you can't even imagine being allowed to charge enough to take care of yourself, to take care of your family, to actually be the professional you wanna be. If you do it, you're gonna somehow, someway get in trouble. Well, Jesse got in the worst trouble of all. So we're gonna talk about that in part two. In part one. Today we're gonna talk about what made Jesse decide to move from a hospital into his private practice, the different forces. A very particular incident where he was discouraged from going into his own practice and setting fees that worked for him by someone he really respected, and how that impacted him very deeply, and he made the change. Anyway, he's going to talk about the difference between, you know, doing this work of growth and change and boundary settings in our families of origin with people we love, our spouses, potentially our friends, maybe our parents.
Tiffany(02:14):
He talks about the way that's behind closed doors. So there it's very important work, but the difference between doing this work out loud when you're charging premium fees, if you are in our community, going from, you know, not making very much, or just relying on our insurance panels to charging 200, 2 50, $300 per session publicly, putting yourself out there, the level of work required to do that is very different kind of work, a very public type of work, and it's something that you need support for. So he's gonna be talking about all of that today. Very moving. We got a little tears going on in this episode today. If you are new to The Money Sessions, I highly encourage you to download our free fee calculator, set your fee, understand exactly what your fee feed needs to be in order to have a practice that actually feeds you, fulfills you, so you can show up and really do clinical work that makes a difference, makes an impact.
Tiffany(03:10):
It's really interesting. Jesse has two stories actually in this episode of times in which he stated his dream and he was shut down. And I have seen over and over again how therapists who are suffering underearning overworking are unconsciously shutting down their own client's dreams, their own patient's dreams, not on purpose, but when we are limited ourselves, when fear is keeping us stagnant, keeping us from a place of growth, we unconsciously hold others back. Tell them their dreams are not possible too. We don't mean to, but it's simply something that happens. So if you wanna get real about your dreams, your life, what you really want for yourself, go to lean in, make bank.com/fee free. One more time. Leaninmake bank.com/free. Download the Fun with Fees Calculator. Understand what your fee needs to be. Now, you're gonna love this episode. I encourage you to share this episode and listen to this as a precursor to the one that's dropping next week, that's going to blow your lid. Okay, let's dive in.
Intro (04:15):
I think there's a difference between saying what your fee is and like fully committing to it. I believe in this like law of attraction, but you also have to take action. I don't think I do enough to help other people despite being, despite being a therapist, I was worried that I'd end up only serving wealthy people. You know, I was being so delusional about my actual cost, right? I wasn't actually paying myself a real salary. Now that I am charging more, I'm not lying to myself. This is ridiculous. Completely broke, man. If people knew who they were, do what she's doing, like she's doing this.
Tiffany(04:57):
Okay, there we go folks. I'm here with Jesse, Jesse Kauffman. Will you please start by telling our listeners a little bit about you and your practice as it now stands?
Jesse(05:10):
Stands? Yeah. Thanks for having me on. Tiffany. I am Jesse Kauffman. I have a therapy practice that's just me in Ann Arbor, Michigan. It's where it's physically located. It's called Italia Therapy, which is, Italia is the French word for workshop which makes it hard to tell people like how to spell it when I, whatever. Anyway, don't get into that, but it's Italia therapy. It was part of the vision. I was excited about it. I have for years helped professionals with ADHD manage their life. I'm honest that I have ADHD as well. And yeah, lately that's shifted more into working with a DHD dads in tech kind of figure out how they can continue to grow in their career while also being more present at home modeling, you know, fathering parenting that they didn't experience. And that's been really, really meaningful. And in addition to, you know, individual therapy, I also am a breathwork facilitator, so I also do individual breathwork sessions that I facilitate. Sometimes I'm brought into like companies, communities and do group breathwork sessions for folks. And so that's mostly it. Now, there's always a possibility i, I orient toward possibility in my head, so there's like dreams of more things. And so surely it will unfold into more probably by the time this episode's released, but that's where it stands currently
Tiffany(06:28):
As you're sharing this with us. I'm, I've known you for some time now, folks. I've known Jesse for some time, and I'm like, oh, I, I wanted to tell you about, oh, you made me think of that. Oh, so I have to actually like rein myself in from telling you stories or bringing up, oh, I remember when. So we're gonna do our best today. We might fail, but we'll do our best
Jesse(06:48):
We'll try. Yeah.
Tiffany(06:49):
Okay. We'll both try. Today we're gonna talk about your journey to charge premium fees and what it took for you to gain confidence in doing that. Sound good? Mm-Hmm?
Jesse(07:01):
? Yeah, absolutely.
Tiffany(07:02):
Okay. Let's go back. We can even go back to the beginning. When did you first go into private practice? What was your day-to-day life then in the first couple of months, couple of years, early days of your practice?
Jesse(07:16):
Mm-Hmm? . Yeah. Yeah. Oh, enter the time machine. I go all the way back to 2017. No, not that far back, but it feels like an eternity. At this point, a hundred years ago in 2017, I actually had been, was fully licensed for a while and had had someone who helped me get my, like macro licensure. So in Michigan you can have macro licensure and then you can also get clinical licensure. And I had a supervisor who kept saying, while I was working on macro licensure, why aren't you doing clinical work? Like, why don't you wanna be a therapist? And I was m haw, well, I don't I, I don't know. I'll do it someday. And that went on for about two years. And then eventually I decided I was ready to do some clinical work.
Jesse(08:05):
So I started working at an outpatient at an outpatient clinic, at a hospital, local hospital. And the circumstances under which I came in were not ideal. Lovely, lovely people there who really, who, you know, wanted to do their best. A clinician there had died by suicide. And so I was hired to be like the replacement and came in, you know, a handful of months after he passed. It was my first experience as a therapist. I mean, I'd done some clinical work, you know, before and in, in school and internships and stuff. But inherited part of his caseload, which was also a little bit. And I walked into the office and my office was actually his previous office and, you know, there's, it, it hadn't been prepared for me, I would say there were like holes in the wall from the shelving unit that he had had on there, like a dozen holes in the wall right in front of my desk.
Jesse(09:07):
And I opened the desk drawer and there were like, part of his, like, personal effects. It just was like, not, not what we dream of when we think of starting out. And again, these are wonderful people there, but just, you just, I don't know. It was, it was a, it was kind of it was a little bit of a rude awakening in terms of like the systems that we create, the environment that that gives us and how we enter into that. So, found my sea legs, started working, really enjoyed clinical work at at the time we had to, I think our quota was like 28 clients per week, but we were kind of told that we needed to schedule at least I think 32 so that we, 'cause there were gonna be cancellations, and of course the clinic didn't charge a cancellation fee or there wasn't much of one.
Jesse(09:56):
And and so it was very busy time to, to start. And but I really, really enjoyed it. And so I did that for the first like year and a half, and we'd get like, I think it was like $42 per session. You know, the negotiated rate that I was not, not a part of the hospital did. And so that was what we got paid per individual session. And and I was liking the clinical work, but feeling the tension of the clinic, of the, you know, larger organization. And so I started to think, okay, maybe I need to come up with a different plan because I really like doing this clinical work, but it doesn't feel sustainable the way that it is. And so I started consuming lots of business building, like like practice building podcasts, listening to them, ADHD, like literally listening to them in double time and consuming them so much.
Jesse(10:56):
And and so started working toward that. And so what I did was realizing like, I need to start my practice. So I thankfully had the flexibility that I could condense my schedule into four days, and so that I would have a free day on Friday to start kind of work on the practice building piece. So what that meant was, for a time I was seeing nine to 10 clients per day, which, which was not a great model. And you could, and you always had to, every week you had a new intake scheduled, so you were constantly adding new clients to your caseload. So when I did finally end up leaving there, I had like a caseload that was like 119 people that were on, but these were people that were coming in regularly. I mean, some were coming in weekly, but a lot were like once a month, maybe a quarter.
Jesse(11:40):
And it just, it was it was difficult to manage my ADHD under those circumstances because it just was like constant, right? It felt like drinking from the fire hose, like it just was, it was challenging. So so I was able to adjust my schedule in that way. And and in terms of, in terms of fee, 'cause that's, you know, what we're talking about on this, on this show. I, I very clearly remember Tiffany, I was listening to one of the podcasts and you were a guest on it. And I do not recall the, the podcast, but I remember hearing there is this therapist in the Bay area charging two 50 per session for therapy. And I just could not believe it. And I went back to my supervisor and I was like, do you, I heard this podcast where this clinician is working with women of color who are in tech in the Bay area, and she's charging two 50 per session. Like I was, I just like, I thought it was like, I don't know, conspiratorial or something. Like, it just felt like it was not allowed. And oh my gosh, I am, I am so fortunate in so many ways. I think I, I just think the universe or my supervisor every day. 'cause Her response was okay, and I was like, did no, I said, $250, you know, per session. And she's like, yeah, okay. And I was like, what do you are, what are you here? Like, I just couldn't Wait, wait,
Tiffany(13:06):
I have to interrupt for a minute. I have to interrupt. When you heard two 50 per session and you went back to your supervisor and said it, what were some of the thoughts or feelings of hearing this or some of the taboos? Like what was in your mind? Actually,
Jesse(13:20):
I, I remember thinking that is possible. Like, I couldn't, I, you know, I think when I was starting to build for my practice, I was like, okay, I'm currently making like $40 an hour per session, so probably what I'll do is do like a hundred dollars per session and that will feel dangerous and challenging. And so I, you know, at that point, I, I think it just was like, it blew the top off of, of what I thought was possible. Like what was actually available in reality for people like us, like therapists, right? People who are doing, you know, social workers who are doing this work day in and day out. And so that, I think that was, there was all that in the mix, and I think I got excited about that possibility. It just was, it was like, I, I was in like a kind of a state of disbelief.
Jesse(14:10):
And so I told my supervisor and she was like, okay. And I was like, what do you mean? Okay. And she's like, so that's what she charges. And I was just, and, and so like, obviously my money stuff is coming up because I like can't, I can't believe that you could charge something like that. And thankfully my supervisor had done her share of like, money mindset work. So she's just held that like, essentially reflecting up to me, like, okay, well what's, what's going on within you that this is having this response? And I just was like, I I just couldn't, I had, I had, you know, I dunno, even now I feel like it's a little bit, I'm like, don't have the words. But yeah. So that was a very brief, that wasn't like an official, like, I worked at the same place that where my supervisor was.
Jesse(14:55):
So that was like a brief lunch conversation or like in passing in the kitchen area or something. It wasn't a full conversation. So later that day, and you were, so you might as almost might as well have been a unicorn in a fantasy book, right? Like you were across the country, and of course, in California, not in the Midwest, could you like, you know, all of that sand kind of just starts to kind of seep into the hole and starts to kind of like, cover up that, that possibility. And and so I like Mo, you know, I was kind of feeling move on the day and my, my supervisor sent me a text message later and said last year my gross was, what did she say? It was like 120,000 or something like that. I don't remember exactly, but it was, it was, you know, beyond six figures.
Jesse(15:41):
And she was working part-time in the clinic and part-time in her own private practice. And I, I saw that and I was like, what? I was like, I was hoping to make like $60,000 or like, you know, ooh, maybe after some years I'll get to like 75. And to have a person that was like sitting next to me and meeting with me regularly to say, yeah, this is not, this is reality, right? Like, this is a reality that you can be a part of. I'm a part of it, you know, what do you, what do you think about that? And I gotta think about how I'm bringing words to this because it was almost like, I think at the time I was thinking if I get out, if I get out into private practice on my own, you know, I'm here at this clinic, I, if I get outta my own, it's gonna be a lot of work.
Jesse(16:29):
I don't, I, you know, I have ADHD, I don't know my fam, I don't come from like a family of a bunch of business owners. Like, I, I don't know what it'll look like for me to run a business. Can I actually manage accounting and budget and all these other things that felt really intimidating. And but I was like, okay, eventually, eventually, eventually I'll do it. Eventually I'll get there. And between that and some other more frustrating things that emerged at the place where I was working, I was just like, okay, I'm done. I'm out. I gotta, I gotta, we gotta wrap this up here. We gotta start something new. It just felt like it just felt like reality was like so much closer. It was not across the country anymore. It was next door to me. And that really, really changed, I think, what I saw possible for myself.
Jesse(17:17):
So I started doing, started seeing clients in my private practice. When I started to set my fee, I did the fun with fees calculator. I think my number was like 184 for those of you who had done the car, the fun with fees calculator, you know, what I did next, I then charged less than that by like, like 20. I was like, okay, what if I actually, I was going down to 145, and again, the same supervisor was like, well, why not 50? I was like, Ooh, squirming, okay, maybe fine. And they were like, well, why not? Why not 60? And they're like, just kept pushing me on it. So I started at 165 which felt really dangerous and scary to me, like felt in my body. And I remember the first time on a consult call that I had to say it, I, I had already practiced having that consult call, like easily 50 times before the call.
Jesse(18:13):
I, I was just saying it over and over and over and over again. If I had a dog or a cat, they probably would've thought their name was $165. Like, I just had to say it so much to like, speak it into existence, right? You know, we, there's this, we, we have thoughts that just exist in our head and they don't, they can sometimes feel real and sometimes not, but like when they, we say it out loud, there's this creative act that happens. And so I just had to keep kind of creating that for myself to feel to feel like I could do it. And you know, and of course there were the pieces where like, this first person that was calling me was actually a referral from like a friend, a former work friend. So it was like a person that I had actually kind of already met a little bit before.
Jesse(18:58):
And so then you have all these fears around what will this mean to my, my own personal relationships? Is this gonna be too much? Is this gonna be terrible? Is this gonna be, you know, I I was so worried about being like ostracized or, or like excommunicated in some way because like, oh, he charges too much and he's new at this, right? I'd only been practicing therapy for like two years and and I had done some other career stuff before I got my MSW, so I, you know, like it, but whatever. And so that was a part of me coming into this is why I said that, but it still felt risky. And and they said, okay, that's great. Well, you know, do that. And I was like okay, like , what do you, you know? Okay, great, thank you, . I don't, I don't think I actually said thank you, but yeah, it just, it felt, it felt unbelievable.
Jesse(19:51):
And so I, at that point started, started seeing people at 165. I got enough of a caseload that I I got enough of a caseload that it justified okay, I probably can. And I had started saving. So the money that was coming in from that, I was not spending, I was putting in, saving into my business because I knew to make the transition from being employed at the clinic to being all part-time, all, all private practice, excuse me, was going to it. That was a leap. And so I was ping actually pretty fiscally conservative around that. And then it in January of 2020, I put a notice at the clinic to say, I think it's time. Let's go rock and roll. They were like, okay. And then it was March. So my, my last week at the clinic was the first week of March, 2020.
Jesse(20:44):
We all can hear it and feel it coming on . No, we all remember. And yeah. So that happened. And I, the, you know, it was, it was, it was tough to leave the clinic because there were people that I really cared about and I really enjoyed and I believed in. And it felt like that was my therapist community. I mean, at that point, honestly, that was a hundred percent of my therapist community. And to some degree it was, some people were supportive. You know, I had some people who they, they would say like, well, what are you charging? And I would tell them and they're like, that is great. Good for you. Awesome. Go for it. And I felt really, you know, emboldened and supported in that. And then there are others that were like, oh, you gotta be careful. You know, this shouldn't just be about the money.
Jesse(21:26):
You gotta, you know, I don't know. And I just was like not helpful. Thank you. I mean, didn't say not helpful, but I felt that in me. Yeah. And I even had a, I had even had like a former manager who said to me like, well, I don't envy you. And I just like I, that really hurt. 'cause It was a person I had known for years. And I think they said that, you know, I don't envy you in terms of like what you're embarking on. Like, we didn't know it was covid at the time, like this was before that. They were just saying, I don't envy you on going out on your own and doing private practice. And this was a person who had like, really su like really substantially supported me in, in, in difficult positions that I'd had in other times at the hospital.
Jesse(22:12):
And so I was like, okay. And then I was asking her like, what do you have going on this weekend? And she said, well I'm, I'm gonna take the weekend off from work. I haven't taken a vacation since November. And it's like two months, three months since we, we were at like two and a half months since November. Which I, I don't know, I just laughed. I was like, now I don't envy you. Because I'm like, what is this? What are you trying to get me to sta like that do, don't you see it? Like, do you see what you're trying to sell me on? Is not, it's not good for you either. I didn't say all of that. I just laughed and said, well, I don't envy you either. And you know, we were cordial and left, but I, you know, that experience, it, it was, it was I'm, I'm, ooh, I'm feeling more sadness come up about it.
Jesse(22:58):
I think in this moment probably 'cause I'm being recorded. But I think also because you know, when when someone speaks a dream to you, like what do you do with that, right? And for it to be a person that like, I felt like cared about me and you share the dream and you, and you just res and is like, it was really dismissive, right? So that was, that was painful. Yeah. Yeah. I dunno. And I think it's also like not, and that was part of their burnout speaking, right? Like that was part of their own pain that they hadn't worked through and probably some of their own frustrations and being a part of this organization and you know, like I understand all that, but it just, you know, it just, I was, I felt sadness around that. Anyway left went private practice pandemic started was doing okay, lemme pause for a minute.
Tiffany(23:48):
Lemme pause you. I'm thinking about this. You're trying to rush past the feelings. actually just did a story about this right before we got on an Instagram story. I keep getting people in my inbox, dms who are wanting to do this leap. Maybe it's get off insurance, maybe it's raising fees, maybe it's leaving some kind of group situation. And over and over again they say that there is someone important in their life, a colleague or someone they respect who's doing this fear thing. Like, that's risky. Are you sure? I don't think it's gonna work. So I do wanna slow down and, and make sure folks are taking in this story you just told, like you did have people who were saying, good for you. You had this amazing supervisor, thank God you had this supervisor who gave a, an alternate. But a lot of therapists only have, I'm getting goosebumps. This experience where you're naming the dream, like you say, and what you get is, well, I don't envy you or that's risky. I What would you say to folks who are in a situation right now where they do have a, a dream and they're having someone loud in their ear who's saying this kind of thing to them? Any thoughts?
Jesse(25:00):
The first thing that comes to my mind is really, I, I mourn with you. Like, there is such a sadness and there's such profound pain there because it is, it is someone else's pain that is unresolved and they have not found a way out. And instead of taking personal responsibility for their own pain, they try and hand it to you in a moment where you're saying, but maybe there's hope. And I, I think that's why I, I I, I feel that so profoundly because life can be really, really, really, really, really, really, really challenging. And we often don't even know what, how the, all the challenges that we're all navigating. And I just, I think when someone, when you see a glimmer of light and, and hope and life in someone, and they talk about a dream in that way I dunno, it's a sacred moment where someone is sharing something profound with you.
Jesse(25:56):
And I just, I think we need to be more careful with those things. And so if you have had that experience I'm sorry, I, I I really am. I think that that's, that's really painful. And please don't stop there. Like, you, you have something worth pursuing. And, you know, maybe our dreams don't always turn out the way that we initially envisioned them, but what if you got to something close to that? What if you got something closer to that? Like, what, what would that mean in your life and how would that change things? And I am profoundly different Jesse now than I was back then. And I yeah. I mean, my supervisor was a, was was a, a lifeline to, in a way that I, I I will never be able to thank her enough. Like I just won't, I just won't. Because I, it was, it was a life-changing experience to go from I'm trying not to jump ahead.
Tiffany(27:00):
Jump ahead. That story. Eric, you can jump ahead a little bit.
Jesse(27:03):
Well, well, I mean it, the, it was life changing. 'cause I, I left there I to tried to figure out business on my own joining limb and, and the experience of joining limb. And what I gained in that was, so, it was, it was so much more than money. It was so much more than money that I am a different person now. I always have this fantasy of like, not always. Sometimes I have this fantasy where people who only saw me at the clinic, reached out for services and I, and they saw me as a therapist that I'm now and bless current and past Jesse, I will remember their name.
Jesse(27:40):
I will know what's going on in their life. They will see me be laser focused and fully present. And I don't know. I will hold them in my soul in a way that I just couldn't, I did not have the capacity for when it was 30 people in a week, a part of a larger group of, you know, 80 maybe frequent people coming through. I mean, it just, I, I couldn't, I could not, I could not. And also I'm someone who has worked toward his dream and I, and so now when I can support and empower people, like I can, I can hold their hope and vision for themselves in a way that has the maturity of me working toward mine and continuing to work toward mine. I just think it feels different that, that it feels different. I, I know I feel different when I have people respond and there's a difference between, oh yeah, I could see that happen.
Jesse(28:34):
That would be cool. Good, go for it. I believe in you. Right? Mm-Hmm. Versus the, like, I have an embodied experience of both the, the pain and frustration of working toward that and the, the joy and the pride and absolutely go for it. Right? You just, it just feels different. Yeah. It, it absolutely does. So I, yeah, so I, I left the clinic. I on private practice, I was kind of feeling a little bit like something's missing as I'm like chugging through pandemic times early on. And I think it wasn't very long into it I joined limb. I think I partly because I needed to do some money mindset work, I really was appreciating what you were saying in, in your podcast and in interviews you were, you were doing. And at the time, I didn't know if I was allowed to join li because I was like, you were, it was like heavily market toward women, people of color, like, you know, minority identities. And I was like, I am a cisgendered male.
Jesse(29:34):
I, you know, I'm, but I'm in like a straight passing marriage. And so it just was like, I don't know, I think I even said like, I would like to , I don't know if I sent this message or not, but I think I recall sending a message that was like, if I'm allowed to join, I would like to join LIMB or something. But I also needed - I needed more colleagues than I had. I needed, I just needed to be connected to something more. And I think for me, at that time, joining LIMB felt like it was connecting to, to hope and a vision of the future that yeah, it just felt really, really important.
Tiffany(30:07):
At the time you joined, what was your fee?
Jesse(30:10):
It was 165. So
Tiffany(30:12):
You're still at 165, so Mm-Hmm. folks listening might be saying, 165 is fabulous. Well, what's the problem here? What are you trying to achieve? So what, what did you want for yourself and why was 165 not cutting it for you?
Jesse(30:27):
Well, I returned to the fund with these calculator and I was like, oh, oh 165. I mean, the backstory there is like, I have debt , I have student loan debt, I have a mortgage. At the time we had cars, credit cards you know, and my wife is was gainfully employed and we had health, thankfully had health insurance through her job. But like I, you know, I had debt. I, we, had debt that we needed to work on. 165 was not gonna be sustainable. And add to that, that the pandemic, we were gonna have two kids at home doing school and my wife working, and it was just clear that we were, I was gonna need more flexibility to like actually make this work. And between the two of us, I had the job that could actually do that. Hmm. So it was grounded in like, getting real about numbers and what I actually needed, not just to like pay my preliminary bills, but also to like work toward getting into a place of financial health and out of debt but then also needing more flexibility in the schedule.
Jesse(31:31):
And yeah, so I, in, I don't know, it was like August or something, I went up to 200 for new clients acquired some of those. And then in September of 2020, I was transitioning all my current clients to 200. And I'm, I'm, I'm aware that like, that was not also easy. Like, that was a difficult process. You know, I had gone through LIMB, I was very high, like participated a lot, was really inspired by the other people in the program. Really challenged to grow in lots of ways that felt really right. Was hard, but right. And I remember when, there was a time when I was preparing to ask, like preparing to transition current clients to 200, and I thought, am I blowing up my practice? Like, are all these people gonna be like, no, I will not go from 165 to 200.
Jesse(32:26):
Your therapy is not worth it. I think you're, I dunno, greedy or something. You know, the quality of your, your, your, your services isn't good enough to justify that. Like, I had all of those thoughts emerging, and I was doing a it was interesting. I was doing, I was doing some yoga in the evening, and I just, like, somehow I hit this posture and I just, the broke and I just started to weep. Mm-Hmm. , because I had this realization that I was finishing the story, I was closing the book before I was finishing the story, and I, it was like a conversation I was having over and over again with a couple of my clients. And I was like, Jesse, you're doing this to yourself. Like, you, you what? You don't, you don't know how the story ends. Why are you closing the book and putting it back on the shelf?
Jesse(33:09):
Like, don't, don't do that. Like, stay with yourself. It's, it's might be a hard part, it might be a messy part, but like, actually, actually see how this goes. Like actually see where this goes. And so I did, and most people were like, okay, , like, so little resistance. I had like one person say, I am worried about I'm worried about your business, or something like that. I don't know. There was, and then we, we were, we talked about it, we talked about what that meant, and it was related to some clinical things that were, you know, going on for them. But I, I got very little pushback at the time, like, surprise shockingly little. I will offer a disclaimer at this time. I still stay in community with other folks in limb mostly, or women. And I know that I, I, it's based on hearing their stories.
Jesse(34:00):
I do think that as a cisgendered male, I'm less likely to hear people push back on my fee from clients, is what I've perceived. And I have to wonder about privilege at play there, because I'll talk to colleagues and they, they just hear more back from clients about when they change their fee even at smaller increments. And so, you know, I do, I think some of that's at play, but even if that, even if that is true, I don't want anyone to close the book before they get to the, the story, right? Like yeah.
Tiffany(34:33):
When I'm hearing, oh, I love this, I love this, the emotional experience you're describing, the dam breaking and your some part of you fighting for you, fighting for Jesse. Like, see where this ends. And so even if, I don't know if it's true, even if you get, you got less pushback in that case, because I know you have had pushback at other parts of your journey. Mm-Hmm. your work to get there, what you had to do inside feels very similar in your unique way to what so many therapists face when they try to, or they keep them from making this move.
Jesse(35:09):
Yeah. Yep. Yeah. What,
Tiffany(35:10):
What, what's your feed today?
Jesse(35:13):
It's three 10.
Tiffany(35:14):
Holy mackerel. Okay, folks. , and I'm looking at the top. I'm like, you're very inspired. I, I mean, folks are listening. I'm just, usually I'm talking and I'm just like, I don't have anything to say. This is so meaningful. This is so moving. So I'm thinking like, okay, we've skipped a lot from two 200.
Jesse(35:31):
There's Yeah. And there's so much. There is like, oh my God, there's so much story in the middle that we haven't even touched yet. But I think we can do it. I think we can do it.
Tiffany(35:42):
Is, well, well, let me think about this. So I'm trying to think about listeners who are here right now. They're, they're hearing, okay, l left, left the hospital job, went to 165, haven't done a lot of work to get to 200. And then we are hearing today you're at 310. They might just be like, what are we even talking about? Like, you, there was one point where you were in a hospital hearing, I was charging two 50 in the coast and that was just ims. Now you're charging more than I ever charged in my private practice. Let me ask you this, without even doing all the middle part, we're probably gonna have you again 10 more times on this show. Okay. What can you say about the Jesse who shows up now and does these over $300 sessions? And let me also ask you this. How much of your caseload pays this? Like what percentage?
Jesse(36:33):
Well, it's a new development, the three tens at new development. Okay. I came up from 265.
Tiffany(36:38):
So you were even at 2 65 as of . Okay. Yep. Uhhuh.
Jesse(36:43):
So I have I think like two, and my caseload's is small, so I had a, I had a lot of people move and terminate in the summer. So currently when we're recording this, it is August. And so my caseload shrank. Mm-Hmm. . But prior to that, prior to the terminations and stuff, it was probably a third of my caseload Yeah. Was at the 310. I hadn't brought up new, I hadn't brought up current clients to that just yet.
Tiffany(37:10):
Do you have any I'm like, oh, nobody wants to hear this question. I was talking to a LIMB student recently who was having a stru, like on, on the, in the journey, having a struggle, and she was asking, do any of these people on the podcast really achieve this? Like, maybe they're just saying that it's not really true. So now you are in a place where you are, you've had some people leave, you're making this three 10 move. Some of your people are there. Is it true, like for somebody who's like, I don't really know if anyone is charging over 200 really not consistently, like they're not really able to do it. What would you say to someone who's in that position? Like, how is this really, like you were, is this possible? Can this be done? I don't know. What would you say?
Jesse(37:53):
I say this in the most loving, kind, compassionate way. You need some new friends, you need more friends, you need more people around you. That, that can show you something else is possible. I mean, I, maybe you don't, maybe you're wired a different way and that you can just orient to it. But if you're saying things like, I don't think this is possible, I don't think this is achievable. I'm sorry that the world that we have limits our view and limits access to, to, to, to people like that or, or speaks. You know, we don't speak honestly about numbers often for lots of, lots of reasons. But I would just encourage you to find, find more people, like keep searching because I, I don't know, I know most of, most of my therapist friends are doing that in a variety of different ways. And it's my reality now. You know, it's my reality now. Even though I thought it wasn't possible before. So yeah,
Tiffany(38:55):
That's what I told her. I gave her the homework assignment. You need to go find three people who you can say, I actually am doubtful. Can I see your books? Mm-Hmm. find three people who are willing to say, here's my revenue for the past three months. And she can look with her own eyes. Mm-Hmm. . And know that it's possible.
Jesse(39:09):
I that's bringing a story where when I was once upon a time I was going, yeah, we don't, we'll have to tell this story another time, but 200, I was going 200 to 310 and I was in a group coaching program, and it was me and one other client. I think they were, they were starting up this group coaching program. This person had done group practices and had been in business for a while. Anyway, so it's me and one other person, and I had said, I'm gonna go to three 10. And the, the coach in that program said, well, I want you to be successful, but I also think you need to think about what the market can bear.
Jesse(39:56):
So maybe think about doing something less than that. Something, you know, like figuring out what the market could bear. And while I was like working through my anger and my disbelief and my disappointment, like, this is, this is what's happening again. Right? This is this moment again where I'm like, I have a dream and, and someone else's fear, or I don't know, disbelief or whatever it is, comes in and that's what comes out their mouth. Yeah, I, I don't know. I was just, I was working through that moment again, I, I am one lucky son of a gun. The other person in the group who is also being coached said, Mm-Hmm, I think you should go for it. She, she said, I just got referred a client who has been paying a psychoanalyst. Oh my gosh, what was the number? It was like 4 52 times a week.
Jesse(40:51):
And now they got referred to me. And so they're, they're paying my fee. I wish I was charging four 50. I'm not, I'm like charging, I don't know, I think it was probably like one 50 or 200 or something like that. But she said they, they were doing that for years, right? So there are people who are paying these fees and you know, so I dunno, she was just supportive. And it, he, so then that per the coach kind of backed off a little bit and at the end of the program he said, maybe I should raise my fees.
Tiffany(41:18):
Good. You influence them. This. So what this also makes me think is like, if there's a, I'm thinking about you as a coaching client of this person who has their own limitations of what's possible. In this case, the two of you influenced that person. Yay. But that's a harder move. And if you were by yourself, maybe it wouldn't have come out that way. Mm-Hmm. , if we think about therapists or everyone listening to the show who's charging $80 per session and they need to be charging one 50 or is charging one 50 and they need to be charging two 50, they are doing the same thing to their clients. Shutting down unconsciously, most likely shutting down certain aspects of our own clients. Their own client's potential possibility because they're afraid or they're not doing it for themselves. It makes me think back to what you said earlier.
Tiffany(42:00):
I loved how you described, I'm not even gonna, people go back and listen 'cause I'm not gonna say it well around the difference between having a therapist who says, yeah, you can really do it, that's great. I believe in you, but it's not doing it themselves. And a therapist who has done the hard work has pushed through things that are very difficult, not only in your personal life, because I think most therapists have done a lot of work in their personal life, but in your professional life or in your financial life, that's where many therapists are refusing to do the work, and it's limiting their client's ability to do those parts or explore those parts of themselves as well.
Jesse(42:33):
Mm-Hmm, , absolutely. The distinction that's coming to my mind is like, absolutely the work that we do in our families and at home is like deep and meaningful and challenging work. And it is often the work that's happening behind closed doors, it's not your public persona. Oh. And so there's something very different. I mean, I don't, I felt it in my body so different to come and stand forward and say, this is what I do. This is what I charge and this is how I'm inviting the public to know me. It's just, it's, I don't know. It's just so different. It's, it's so different. And particularly 'cause when you're not, when you're private pay, you have to market yourself. Like it's not insurance just sending you the people you're doing in the, you know, you just, the funnel of insurance isn't there for you. So you actually have to do the work of figuring out who you are and what, what do you need in your practice? How do you like to, how do you like to be in session? And continue to like, refine and discern and, and work toward those things and, and claim it for yourself. Like actually claiming for yourself what it is that you need. Yeah. I forgot what the question was.
Tiffany(43:43):
Well, it doesn't matter. This is a really important distinction you've made that I, I don't think I've heard articulated before. The difference between doing our relational work in our, maybe our romantic relationships or in our friendships, or maybe with our own parents, it's off. Nobody sees it. You can mess up and go to your therapist and it hurts, but nobody sees it. When you're doing this work as a professional, your mistakes are out there. You're, you know, we've had therapists of course who raise their fees and then lower 'em back and then have to work back up all kinds of things. How we're showing up, what we're saying we're charging, how we're talking about what we do. Ev it's gonna be seen by maybe a hundred people, maybe 500 people, maybe a thousand people. So to have the wherewithal and the courage and the ego strength and the support to do that work front facing it, that's a different ball game. That's a different level of work is what I hear you saying. Mm-Hmm.
Jesse(44:32):
. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I, and maybe I'll always leave the disclaimer, like, people are different. For some people that might come very naturally and they're like, okay, yeah, whatever, I'm, I can just do this. That was not my personal experience and I know lots of other people who like it is, you know, they do the work of fee, but then like getting, being more public with it is just feels like this herculean lift and yeah. I know. It's, it's a part of, it's a part of the work.
Tiffany(44:58):
Yeah. Especially in our profession where there's so much stigma and fear and discouraged discouragement around really taking care of ourselves financially, really taking care of our families and just wanting, just wanting to do well. Mm-Hmm. .
Jesse(45:16):
Yeah. Yep. Yeah.
Tiffany(45:18):
Alright. So we have to leave folks with a cliffhanger. We didn't even get into the fact that you were brought up as a Mennonite, which is rife with so much complexity. We didn't get into like how being a, having a DHD and being and all being a dad, how all these things have shaped, have been impacted by your journey have shaped why and how you've gotten here. So for folks listening, we're gonna have Jesse back. I'll just say that out front.
Jesse(45:42):
Well, we also forgot the licensing board part. ,
Tiffany(45:45):
We, I didn't forget. I was, you didn't put that in your notes. I'm like, I'm not gonna go there. I did that. I dunno if we're allowed to talk about that. So we're, we're gonna leave you with a real cliffhanger. Mm-Hmm. . There's also a licensing board. Mm-Hmm. complaint component to this. Mm-Hmm. When it comes to fees, that is every therapists worst nightmare. Mm-Hmm. , every therapist's terror. Mm-Hmm. Jesse gotta live through it and live to tell the tale. And we're gonna hear about that next time. So folks, tune in. We're gonna have Jesse back. And if you're thinking, I mean, man oh man. Jesse can do it because X, y, z we're gonna hear about the things that have made it difficult being brought up in a particular religious background that had real strong beliefs around money. Having a DHD and how that impacts your ability to organize your time or, you know, so many factors that are at play and make this journey difficult.
Tiffany(46:34):
It's not just like that's a, that that's a white guy. He's lucky. He can, everything comes to him false. And the very real consequence played out with a licensing board of what happened when you really raised your fees and maybe got some, well, you did get some backlash. Mm-Hmm. . And you stood up Mm-Hmm. Ethically and stood behind your work, which is, we're gonna get to it. So, Mm-Hmm. For folks who are listening, Jesse, I know there are people who are moved by the way you talk about your journey by the way, you talk about your work maybe even this, you know, Lim student who I'm saying go out. You need to find, you need to find some folks. How can folks connect with you? And folks, I'm not saying connect with Jesse for a coffee chat. I'm saying if you wanna pay Jesse his fee and feel what it feels like to sit across from somebody who is fully embodying this fee, who's gone on this journey how can folks connect with you? Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 4 (47:31):
.
Jesse(47:33):
They can I have a thought that I need to, I wanna make sure that I say, say it
Tiffany(47:36):
First. Say your thought first.
Jesse(47:38):
Okay. The thought first is WII, you, you were kind of like white man who's lucky, you know, false. And I, and I, and you were making a different kind of point, but what I wanna say is, it's true that I'm white. It's true that I'm lucky. But I want you to hear this white male say, please don't stop because your identity is different. Like, I, we lose so much if it just continues to be a sea of white men. I don't know, at quote unquote at the top, or however you wanna think about it. I mean, I think development is different, but like, I just, we please, we need, we need more different voices and faces and personalities and identities present in, in doing this work. People need to see that something else is possible. And yeah, I, I know I'm personally cheering for you.
Jesse(48:34):
I have learned so much from women, people of color that I just, I, I would not be where I am without their contributions. And I think that there's so much more that our, our world and our culture can still benefit from that. So yes, it's true historically those things. And yes, personally I am lucky, but part of my luck is to be in community with people that are different than me who don't quit. And, and I just, you know, please don't, because I guess what I'm saying, if you wanna connect with me, so my website is@therapy.com. That's spelled A-T-E-L-I-E-R therapy.com. Or you can email me, Jesse at, at therapy.com. You can connect with me on LinkedIn. I, I'd be happy to hear from you. Yeah, I'd be happy to hear from you and I'd be happy to, to cheer for you and work with you and help you discern discern what it is that that might be possible for you and, and what makes sense and working toward that and doing it in a way that doesn't blow out your system.
Tiffany(49:46):
I love that. Jesse, thank you so much. Mm-Hmm,
Jesse (49:49):
.
Outro(49:54):
All right. Whatever you're doing, I want you to pause. If you're driving, pull over. If you're chopping a carrot, put that knife away. If you're making sweet love to your woman, well, I mean, that's, that's, that's kind of flattering in a weird way. Huh. You can go, you can just go ahead and you can keep doing that. But for the rest of you, if you learn even just one thing of value today, please share this episode with even just one therapist who could benefit from the message. Here's how, if you're listening on iTunes, click on the episode and you'll see a small purple circle with three dots. Click on those dots and you're gonna see the option to share at the bottom of the list. Click that, and you can just go ahead and share it on Facebook, or you can even just text it to one therapist who you know needs to hear it. If you're listening on Stitcher, just tap the triangle icon on the upper right corner. It's next to the menu that displays your upcoming playlist. You'll see the option to share the episode you're currently listening to right on Facebook. Look, it's time to get the word out. We gotta spread the message. Thank you so much, and we'll join each other again soon.