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High voltage takes center stage
in this season of Hitachi

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Energy's Power Pulse podcast.

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We promise to bring you great content
from the brightest minds in the business.

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We'll discuss challenges, opportunities,
and all the hot topics

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any high voltage enthusiast

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or anyone interested in sustainability,
for that matter, is sure to enjoy.

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Today we're going to talk about
one of the biggest challenges

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the energy sector is facing,
and that is moving on from SF6 –

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the trusted, reliable

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and nearly impossible to replace
insulation gas for high voltage.

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Key words: nearly impossible.

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Transitioning away from this

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gas isn't just a matter of finding
a mere replacement or band-aid solution.

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It demands innovation, global cooperation,
and, most importantly, standardization.

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Joining us today is Dr. Michael Gatzsche.

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He is the Head of Interrupter and GCB
Technology Development at Hitachi Energy.

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He is driven by his passion for learning
and contributing his talents and skills

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to building innovative technology that
will pave the way for a brighter future.

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Hello, Michael.

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Welcome to the Power Pulse podcast.
It's lovely to have you here.

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How are you today?

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Hello, Bárbara.
Thanks a lot for having me.

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I'm great. How are you doing? Pleasure.

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I've been trying to get you to come
to the podcast for a while now, haven’t I?

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Maybe going on a year now, I think. Yeah.

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Last time I escaped on a business trip
but this time I had no excuse.

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You’re here. Good.

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Thank you so much for making the time
to come and speak with us.

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We always start each episode
by talking a little bit about something

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that our guests do outside of work and
my team tell me that you're into K-drama.

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Now, I've heard of K-pop.
I haven't heard of K-drama.

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What is K-drama?

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I don't know what your team is
telling you.

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I watched one show, one K-drama show.

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So you're not a K-drama fan then?

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For me, actually, it's a very new addition
to the, let's say, afterwork

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portfolio, but it's basically
a class of drama from South Korea.

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Okay.

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I was traveling in Switzerland

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with my partner, and we were walking along
a lake in Iseltwald.

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And this is a very famous location,
one of the K-dramas, and we didn't know,

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but we noticed there were a lot
of tourists taking pictures there and–

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Is that how you got into it? Yeah.

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And so we investigated
a little bit what it is.

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And then we actually started
watching one of the shows.

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Very cool.

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But we are here today to talk about
standardization and SF6-free switchgear.

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We have talked about SF6 and alternatives
at length throughout the podcast episodes

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that we've released.

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SF6 has been the go-to insulation medium
for switchgear for decades,

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and now we've got this alternative.

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So we've got companies like ours
looking at alternatives

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that are eco-efficient to replace the most
potent greenhouse gas known to man.

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So why now?

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And why do SF6-free gases
need to be standardized?

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Yes, I think it's a very good point
in time now for standardization,

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because the development and implementation
of SF6 alternatives has been a focus

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for the R&D of the big manufacturers
over the last decade, I would say.

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And first,
there were like really open development.

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Everyone tried to figure out
the best solution.

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And also different manufacturers,

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different institutions
came up with different solutions to that.

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And there were always also pioneers
that went ahead

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without standardization,
trying out if it works, so to say.

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And so there was a bit
more of an exploratory phase.

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But now we are really in this phase

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where this is actually becoming
the standard,

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where it is
becoming the main procurement choice,

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at least in certain regions
in the world, to buy SF6-free equipment.

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And then it is really important
to have standardization

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and to ensure the interoperability
of the equipment,

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to ensure that this equipment,
which will be in service for 40, 50 years

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in the grid,
that it can be serviced in this time,

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that people can be trained on it,
and that specification for components

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for the gasses themselves are somehow
transferable between

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different manufacturers,
between different grid operators.

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Okay, but
there are different solutions on offer.

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So I guess the standardization
for different solutions will be different.

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How do each compare
and do they have strengths and weaknesses?

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Can you tell us a bit more about it?

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Yes, that's a very good point.

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I mean, the standardization is more about
giving a framework – a common framework –

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but it doesn't necessarily mean

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that everyone has to have exactly
the same solution.

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Even before we came to the SF6
alternatives, there were different

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technical solutions out there.

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So there are predominantly SF6 now,
but there are still some old oil

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breakers or AirPlus breakers
out there in operation.

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And even with SF6, each manufacturer uses
a different filling pressure.

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Some have three conductors
in the same enclosure,

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some have one there, so it's not about
standardizing the design, it's

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about standardizing the requirements
basically, and the testing of it.

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Okay.

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So if you've got a new piece of kit
and you want to get it onto the market.

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So the way that you have to pass
certain tests in order for it to be able

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to be marketed,
and those tests are the same

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for whatever company is putting them
forward..That's what you’re saying?

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Exactly. So we can all be different.

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We have different specs,
but we abide by a common set of rules.

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Exactly.

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Because in the end, the high voltage
products have to perform in the grid.

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They will be stressed from the grid side
basically.

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And it is important that this is defined
in a way, but it's not important

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to standardize how the equipment
looks like or how it’s designed.

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It's even better to leave that open.

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Okay. It’s even better?

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Yes, it promotes competition and the
search for the best technical solution.

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And I think that is something
that everyone profits in the end from.

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Yeah, of course.

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Would the energy industry suffer, if
there were not to be a standard approach?

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So if there's like gaps in standardization
or lack of standardization,

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it creates a bit of an uncertainty
because people are not exactly sure

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how to specify
or what are the exact requirements.

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And while this might not be an issue
for maybe someone who’s

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very much a pioneer
and wants to try out new things.

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It is kind of a barrier
for the large-scale adoption.

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And the reason for this
is these high voltage products,

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high voltage switchgear, they are
typically in operation for 40 to 50 years,

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so for basically more than a working
lifetime generation.

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And then it's important
that beyond just having the equipment,

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there is like an ecosystem

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around these equipments, for example,
for the gas, for the equipment

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to handle the gas, to fill it
in, to analyze it, to evacuate it;

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also common standards for training
of the people, common procedures.

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And there it is
very important to have the standardization

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and create that certainty

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and that framework for the operators
to adopt the technology.

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Okay.

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And I guess the safety procedures that
come with it must be very stringent.

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Yes. Safety is an absolute priority.

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I mean, one thing, of course, in the high
voltage products, you have conductors

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that are at high voltage
at the high potential,

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and this voltage is so high
that it is a very strong hazard

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if someone would touch it
or even just come near it.

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So the products must be very safe
in containing this high voltage.

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But also if we talk about gas
insulated equipment,

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these are essentially pressure vessels
with rather large volume

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of even a few cubic meters
with pressures of ten bar for example.

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And there’s a lot of physical energy
stored in such a pressure vessel.

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So when people, fill the gas
into this equipment,

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when they open it for inspection,
there need to be very stringent

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safety procedures.

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My next question has to be
– who sets these standards?

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Who are the companies,
the organizations or associations

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whoever they might be,
setting these standards for the industry?

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So this is also kind of a longer process.

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So typically

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when something new is developed there is
maybe like a pre-standardization phase.

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So before there’s the standardization
where there’s the development,

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but there's also kind of publications.

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So maybe companies or academic
institutions do technical publications

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sharing what they are investigating
and what they find out.

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And then there is pre-standardization
activities.

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For example, CIGRE is a big organization
that does that.

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CIGRE stands for? Just for our listeners.

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CIGRE is French, abbreviation
for Conseil International

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des Grands Réseaux Electriques.

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Très bien.

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And it stands for International Council
of Large Electrical Networks

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and it's a community
with knowhow of the power system.

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And one of the main outputs of
this is technical brochures on topics.

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And this is more or less
a collection of the state of the art

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of a certain topic, for example SF6
alternatives.

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Okay.

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So this pre-standardization phase,
how long does it take

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and how long do you need

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to have something in the making
before it gets pre-standardized?

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And how long then to be standardized?

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Well that's a very good question.

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I would guess that each of these phases –
maybe around five years, sometimes–

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Five years. Okay.

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It can also be a bit longer,
especially if you really have

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some basic investigation
trying out different things.

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Yeah, but maybe five years per phase,
that's a good estimate.

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Okay. So you've told me about CIGRE.

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I know as well, there's IEC and IEEE.

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Yes. This is then IEC is the International
Electrotechnical Commission

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and IEEE is the Institution of Electrical
and Electronic Engineers.

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This is a bit more US, or America-focused.

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They really then make the standards.

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And these standards are a good guideline
for the grid operators

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basically to specify equipment –

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what do we actually want;
what are the ratings that we want.

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It is also very important for us
as manufacturers to what

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we actually design; what does the
performance our equipment has to deliver.

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But it's also an important guideline
for the testing laboratories

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who do the qualification
of this equipment,

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the qualification tests
to see what they actually need to test,

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how the parameters have to look like
when testing those equipments.

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And utilities, regulators, manufacturers,
I guess they collaborate –

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they come together into these associations
and they give there two cents,

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they try and explain what their needs are.

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Yes. So that we as suppliers can give them
what they want, what they need.

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Yes. So this coming
together of the different perspectives

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is extremely important
because the whole ecosystem

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has to work together, and it's important
that all the perspectives are included.

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So you need to specify it in a way
that it fulfills

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the requirements of the power grid,

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but it also needs to be something
that actually can be manufactured

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so that we as equipment
manufacturer can produce.

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And it also needs to be somehow

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provable or testable by the testing
labs, because, especially for high voltage

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products, it's an industry

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where the qualification
and the testing is extremely important.

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So basically everything
that needs to be fulfilled later

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on in the power grid
also needs to be tested.

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The grid is very different worldwide,
right?

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You have different requirements
in North America than they do in Europe.

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How does this account for all those little
intricacies of the grid?

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Yes, that's a very, very good question.

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Also one that I would say as us –
as a manufacturer – keeps it very busy.

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I mean, for us, the best thing
of course, would be like one standard.

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And we develop for this test for this
and we are done.

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But it's not like this.

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I mean, one really basic
thing is if you look at the globe,

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there are many countries

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that have 50Hz as the frequency
of the alternating current.

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Here in Europe this is predominant.

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And others have 60Hz,
which is a little bit faster in the US.

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And actually, when you look

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at the whole set of requirements
or stresses for our equipment,

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some of them are more challenging

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with 60Hz and some of them
are more challenging for 50Hz.

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But we have a global perspective.

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So we want our equipment

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to work in both regions,
so to say or for both frequencies.

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So actually in the development
we already have to take into account

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that we need to be able to make
the test duties that are hard in 60Hz.

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Also the ones that are, more hard in 50Hz.

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Just thought of another question
I wanted to ask you.

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If we can go a couple of steps back,
if that's okay.

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So you have standards for SF6 equipment.

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Couldn't that be transferred
over to non-SF6 alternatives?

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Actually, it's a very important point.

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So I would say the majority of all
the standards are applicable to SF6,

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but also SF6 alternatives
and also other technology

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like old oil breakers or vacuum
circuit breakers.

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And this is because they just describe
what are the requirements

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coming from the power grid
and how it needs to be tested.

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And this should be independent
of the technology,

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because it also enables us to try out
new things, actually, new technology.

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There are, however,
a certain set of standards that are then

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technology-specific,
and this is everything that relates

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to handling the gas –
also a bit to the safety in doing that.

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It is relevant
when you specify these gases that you fill

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in, you want a common specification
so that also suppliers that provide,

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for example, gases can orient themselves
to fulfill this specification

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and sell to different parties.

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And also some specifics in testing,
for example, when it comes to gas

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tightness or to leakage testing,
this is an important topic.

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We want the gas to stay in the equipment.

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And the other requirements
can be a little bit different from a gas

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that has a very high climate impact
like SF6 to the non-SF6

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gases who have way lower environmental
impact when they leak out.

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One global SF6-free standard, is it
attainable?

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Is it needed?

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I think there cannot be one global
standard.

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There’s already today
a very diverse standardization landscape.

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And I think most of
it has already been updated

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to account for the SF6 alternatives.

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So we see this, the grid operators,
we as manufacturers,

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we have the tools in hand to provide
the equipment, SF6-free equipment

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for a large scale
adoption in the power grid.

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And I think what we can do going forward

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and what's important
is this return of experience.

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Now this equipment is being used
in the grid.

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We collect the hands-on experience
and this is important to use,

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then the pre-standardization work,
standardization work, forums like CIGRE,

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to give this return of experience

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and use this in a continuous improvement
of standardization.

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Okay.

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So in your view
what does the SF6-free grid look like

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in the future, in the few years to come?

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Yeah.

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For me, the big wish is that SF6-free
equipment becomes

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basically the standard choice
whenever the rating desired by

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the operator is available,
that operators really have the certainty

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to say we go for the SF6-free equipment,
because I think it's a beautiful thing.

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It enables us to extend the grid,
to connect more renewables to the grid, to

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enable electrification

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of transportation, of heating,
and so on by strengthening the grid.

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And we can do that without adding
tons on tons of the SF6

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that we would
then have to manage for decades to come.

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So our vision would be that it becomes
the standard to go SF6-free.

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That's... Yeah, the future's bright.

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Just before you go,
I know you hold a quite important role

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within one of these organizations
that we mentioned, CIGRE.

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Can you tell us a bit more about the roles
and how companies come together

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and how they work together
to achieve a common goal?

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Yes. I think CIGRE
especially is extremely motivating,

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collaborative approach because we have the
different parties in the manufacturers.

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We call it users, which is essentially
the utilities or the grid operators.

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But you also have suppliers
that provide gas handling equipment.

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Also, sometimes academia and consultants
and all of them come together to share.

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These the working groups?

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Yeah. And working groups, for example.

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This is a key point, I would say
forms the core somehow of the CIGRE

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to have these working groups
to work on those technical brochure

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to basically further the state of the art
a little bit by providing

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this brochure or this state of the art
in a condensed manner.

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And it's very interesting because you have
the different perspectives,

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but you might also have, for example,
direct competitors

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in such a working group.

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And so there's also very defined

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guidelines how the collaboration
can be in such a working group.

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And basically it relies
that you can only share

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information that is public
or intended for publication anyway.

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00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,360
But you can of course not share any,
let's say, confidential information

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or commercial information,

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00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,200
information of clients or supply
strategies or something like that.

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So there’s a defined framework
of how to collaborate there.

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But of course this is also a motivation
for all involved

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to actually publish information,
to write technical papers and to share

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00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:59,400
basically the know how that is established
with the wider community.

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And especially when it comes
to new technologies.

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This is very interesting

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00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,200
because some parties
need to be the pioneers in implementing

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this technology and for example,
designing or testing such products.

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00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,920
And then they actually do
have this knowhow because they like

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00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,920
needed to do it
to bring the the products to market.

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00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,560
And then it's very good to be able
to share this in such a framework and

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00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,000
contribute
to furthering the state of the art a bit.

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You are lead.

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00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:24,240
I can’t remember,

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there is a word to describe your role
within one of these working groups.

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00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,240
I'm a convener
of one of the working groups.

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There we go.

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It is somehow
a bit of an organizational role, basically

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00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,400
looking for the members of the working

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00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,560
groups, organizing that working
group meets in regular intervals,

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00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:44,040
that there is a good plan
in drafting such a technical brochure,

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00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,880
that there's also,
I would say, a diversity of perspectives

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00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,760
in the working group
so that everyone can be heard.

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00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,520
And yeah,
I think for me, it's a great opportunity

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00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,600
to do that and very motivating
to work in such an environment.

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00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:58,600
Are you able to share something
that you're working on

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00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,560
at the moment or– Are we– 
The working– Strictly confidential?

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00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:03,400
No, it's actually public.

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00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,440
So the working group is about eco-design
methods for the power system.

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00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,720
This basically how this approach
of eco-design, of considering

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00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:16,560
the environmental impact of a product
or service already in designing it, how

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00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,960
this can be applied to the power system
and to the components in the power system.

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00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,400
Okay. That's very interesting.

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00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,400
It is. I can I can You can attest?

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00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,200
Yes. Yes, I can attest for that.

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00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:29,920
Thank you so much for coming in
and talking to us

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00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:31,280
about such an interesting topic.

348
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,600
It's been wonderful having you here.
Thank you.

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00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,040
Thanks a lot for having me Bárbara.

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00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:36,400
It's been worth the wait.

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00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,760
Thanks, Michael. Thank you Bárbara.

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00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:39,920
And that's it for today.

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We'll be back soon
with some more great content.

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00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,440
But before you go,
remember to give us a follow

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00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,000
so you don't miss an episode.

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00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,120
Thanks for tuning in. See you soon!

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00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:51,000
This episode was brought to you by Hitachi
Energy.

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00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,000
Created and hosted by Bárbara
Freitas-Daniels.

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00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,960
Content and script
writing by Cassandra Inay.

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00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,960
Guest speaker Dr Michael Gatzsche.

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00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:03,760
Studio support
by Giovanni Perrone and Natalja Arbatska.

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00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,280
Produced and edited by Creative Chimps.