Tiffany(00:02):
Okay, folks. I am here with David Flowers, and I told David he can't say anything until we start, because I want to capture every word. David and I have been corresponding for years in the inbox before you came to work with us, before. I actually gotta know you in this way, so I'm really excited to speak with you.
David(00:24):
Yes, I was very timid, very unsure.
Tiffany(00:28):
Well, we're not supposed to deep dive yet, but we're gonna already have to deep dive. Tell me about this feeling timid, unsure.
David(00:35):
There's a million things out there. You know, there's, there's a gazillion offerings, there's a gazillion therapists on the internet and Facebook. Everybody has the kind of their promises and, you know, a lot of legitimate people, some not so legitimate people. There's the money and the resources that we have coming in. And of course it always works out that at the time that you most need to invest the money. It's always the time you can least afford it, right? That's right. Yeah, that's right. That's how it works. So, you know, kind of having some basic idea of what the Limb Academy costs and I, I was just guessing, but it turned out to be pretty close. I was just really, I was really freaked out. I'd already paid almost the same amount for a previous thing from someone else, which was good, but didn't really address the fee end so much. So I was, I knew that kind of, you were the way I wanted to go, but it took a long time to, to jump across the line.
Tiffany(01:32):
I, I know that I can already tell this whole conversation is gonna be not our typical conversation. can see where gonna go. Okay. Before we go I have a follow up question to what you just said, but before we go into that, tell folks a little bit about you. Where do you practice? Who do you work with? Just give a folks a sense of, of who is David.
David(01:49):
Yeah. Well, I do, I do private practice teletherapy exclusively, just like thousands of other therapists. When COVID came along, I just kinda went to all telehealth and never got past that. And, you know, the whole MS thing, Tiffany is a, is a key part. You can ask about that at whatever point. But that was a huge part. I, I have ms, I've had it for 35 years, and so right around when COVID came, got rid of the office, moved here to my home office to do telehealth. The same time my disease kind of took a little bit of a turn and I realized I, I couldn't go back. So I kind of had to stay here. I had to stay on telehealth. So that was kind of mostly what was behind the transition here. I've worked with exclusively couples for probably seven or eight years, but with couples mostly my whole life.
Tiffany(02:42):
Wow. Okay. We're gonna also, I, I wanna contextual contextualize this right from the beginning, both having MS and also you were in the ministry, you said, for over 20 years. Can you talk a little bit about that?
David(02:53):
Yeah. So I was working in a music career in my early twenties and recording writing and recording and all that in, in my home studio. Just kind of being a loner, doing everything alone and was really hoping to kind of get something going. But it was really young, hadn't done a whole lot of thinking about it. It was just busy for making product. And got the MS diagnosis in 1990 and I was in my, let's see, I was 22, so it was really maybe a year or so after that. But I went to my wife and I said, you know, maybe it's not prudent. We don't know how the future's gonna go, but maybe it's not a good idea to plan on a career that's gonna require me to tour, to be really active, to carry equipment, to use my hands. So I really started thinking about, let's see, what can I do from a wheelchair if things should go that direction and of, there's no way to know. But ultimately I was like, oh, I've got this handy bachelor in psych degree. I guess I could go to grad school, become a counselor, and then if worse leads to worse, then maybe I'd have some career options. So you, you could say that what I'm doing right now, we've really kind of spent 35 years pre preparing for it.
Tiffany(04:08):
Yes. Yeah. Okay. Holding smokes. Alright.
David(04:10):
Hopefully that answers it for,
Tiffany(04:12):
It does. This is gonna be a rich conversation. Mm-Hmm . Okay, well, let's go back. You are, you are a little bit of a, I mean, every therapist is a different case, but I remember when we would have our conversations via email over the years, I was really impressed with how proactive you were. You were not sitting around and hoping clients came. The thing that really struck me was your investment and understanding of Google ads. Yeah. at what point in your career did you start thinking about using Google ads for marketing?
David(04:45):
Let's see, when would that have been? I would say that was right around the time. I'm gonna say about seven years ago now, maybe. Oh, yeah. Mm-Hmm . Right around the time that I realized that, that physically I couldn't maintain the 35 clients a week schedule. I needed to see fewer clients. I have anxiety issues like, like a lot of us do. And working with insurance, and I'm not judging anybody, anything like that. But for me, working with insurance was extraordinarily anxiety provoking. And anybody who's done it knows there's the, the clawbacks, there's the, you know, the phone calls, the, the worrying about getting paid that just became unbearable. And I thought, well, I guess some people are gonna be more anxious living with the fear of insurance clawbacks and other people are gonna be more anxious trying to do their own marketing and going on their own. And I realized I'm, I'm a I'll pick the anxiety of doing stuff on my own. 'cause At least I know I'm in charge. , I'm making the decisions whether they're good or bad. Right. Like, everything, at least I knew was, was gonna be up to me. And so I really decided to run the Google Ads right around that time, because before I had been doing the insurance and wasn't having any problem, just getting pretty much more clients than I knew what to do with at the time. Yeah.
Tiffany(06:13):
Wow.
David(06:14):
So, yeah, so really it was like, okay, now I'm, now I'm out here doing this thing and I'm not gonna be able to just sit and wait, rely on psychology today. I know that I've really narrowed down that funnel of, of potential referrals and I've gotta do something to really open that back up again. And, and to me it just seemed like getting an ad out there that that was effective was the best way to do that.
Tiffany(06:40):
That's really interesting. So seven or eight years ago also, that's when you moved to working with couples mo working Teletherapy, correct.
David(06:46):
Couples o only couples. Only
Tiffany(06:49):
Couples. Yeah.
David(06:50):
It was, it was the whole story of kind of wean off of, I've been taking, you know, 14 insurances weaning off of them slowly setting a timeline, all that, and then ultimately reaching a time when it's like, okay, that's it. There's no other insurance clients now, it's just, it's just you and that's it. And somewhere in that, I don't remember exactly, but somewhere in that sort of period of time when the clients were starting to draw down and I was moving to cash pay was, was when I decided to hit the ads. Yeah.
Tiffany(07:26):
Okay. You, you know a a therapist could start having the insurance clients referrals dwindle, start getting nervous and then get back on insurance you, for the reasons you told us, which is, Hey, I, I could have the anxiety of clawbacks or I could have the anxiety of figuring it on my own. Yeah. You went to the anxiety of figuring it out on your own. Yeah. Why that?
David(07:48):
Not really entirely on my own, but that's probably a, a good other thing to explore.
Tiffany(07:53):
Well, what do you mean when you say not entirely on your own?
David(07:56):
Well, I mean, I came across I came, I'm trying to remember even, it's been a while since I've been with them. I, I came across a couple of marketing guys online and they were just kind of starting out, you know, his dad had been a pastor, I'd been in the ministry 20, I know that I skipped your question about that, but yes, I'd started grad school. I got halfway through grad school, got a temp an temporary job at a youth pastor at a church, and really liked it and stayed in the ministry for 22 years and just kind of moonlighted as a counselor. So that's the answer to that. Got it.
Tiffany(08:32):
Okay.
David(08:32):
Going back to cover that, but his dad had been in ministry and so there was a bit of a connection. So I, I hired that company and they initially set up and administrated, ran the Google ads for me. And to this day, I don't, I don't, I'm not totally responsible for my own ad. Yeah. Like, I don't want to learn that.
Tiffany(08:54):
Yeah. ,
David(08:55):
Right? Yeah. I think it's about doing your own thing, I think is about, and this is something they really emphasize too. They're like, you, you've got time, you've got money. And I don't know, you might know the other one, Tiffany, I can't remember it right now, but there's like three things, right? Yes. There's time, money, and then Oh, knowledge. It's right. Your existing knowledge base.
Tiffany(09:18):
And I'll add one more, David, I also, I used to say those three. Yeah. And then I, and I just discovered that through my own business, but then I discovered the fourth, which is relationships people. Oh yeah. Just propel you Right. By virtue of knowing them. So Yeah. You have these three or four resources.
David(09:32):
Yes, for sure. And I realized, well, I, I do have time, right? 'cause I'm really lowering my caseload, but I, I don't have desire. I guess that should be part of it too. . That should be, yeah. I just don't want to learn this. And I'm a techie. I love technology, but it stops with gadgets. Yeah. It's not code, it's not like detail stuff. Right. So, yeah. I've always had it administrated and so they administrated it for, for several years that I found another company, by the way, great web company I'd recommend called Counseling Wise. I don't know if I can Oh
Tiffany(10:07):
Yeah. Becky. Yes.
David(10:09):
You know, Becky,
Tiffany(10:09):
I flew to Colorado to hang, I met her online. I went and she, she hosted me in her home with her wife for the weekend. She's phenomenal.
David(10:15):
Yeah. I'm so not surprised. You know, Becky, she's, she's awesome. Yeah. and so yeah, they, they now sort of, technically I do my own, but what the reason I chose them was because they took the ad. They, they made some tweaks, they got it set up, and then they left it alone. So that I'm not doing a continual monthly payment. I just get in touch with somebody there every few months. I pay like 150 bucks. I have them do a refresh, make sure it stays current. And as long as I keep seeing the referrals I need, that's, that's good enough for me.
Tiffany(10:47):
Yeah. I, by the way, side note, you, I can see you being a phenomenal youth pastor. Oh, you just , you're so good at that. You were so good at that.
David(10:58):
Yeah. Well, it was a, I'd grown up, this is a church I'd grown up at. It was, it was easy, it was comfortable. And then I did say to them like, Hey, I really love this. This is really fun. I I really enjoy doing it. But I did work with them. I said, the one stipulation is you have to flex my hours and work with me. 'cause I'm halfway through graduate school and I can't let go of that. Yeah. So that was the, I look back, we married at 19, we were high school sweethearts. I look at back at all the dumb stuff we did when we were kids, but there were some key decisions that I think we made wisely. That was one of 'em. Yeah. like I said, I chose the job. I chose with this time in mind, this season in mind. Mm-Hmm. She chose to go into education because she knew I was gonna need excellent insurance. Yeah. So that shaped her whole career as well. Wow.
Tiffany(11:55):
Yeah. Wow. So thoughtful.
David(11:57):
Yeah. So, you know, that's, I guess that's comforting too. Yeah. We don't, maybe even, we don't have to make the majority of our decisions. Right. Maybe there's just some key moments Right. That we have to recognize. Like, this could have massive implications for you down the road. Yes. You gotta make this one. Right.
Tiffany(12:17):
That's powerful. Okay. I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm gonna do a whole, you just inspired me to do a whole money Sessions episode on just that idea. Oh,
David(12:24):
That would be great. I'd be the first one there. I'm still working on it.
Tiffany(12:29):
So one of the things that caught my attention over the years as we had conversations in the email is you have a clear understanding of return on investment that many therapists do not have. Mm-Hmm . I talk to therapists who maybe wanna invest in Google ads, and then when they hear about the cost to learn it or pay someone else, and then the ongoing cost of, oh, I have to pay a monthly rate to be doing my Google ads to get referrals, they freak out.
David(12:59):
Totally.
Tiffany(13:00):
You and I had a conversation when you were doing, I don't even remember, I didn't go back and look at our conversations, but I remember something like, I said, well, what's the return on your investment? You were saying something like, I'm spending on these ads, you know, it's working, but, and I said, what's the return on investment? And I think you told me, you can correct me if I'm wrong, at the time it was, I think $500 for you to get a book up, a booked client. Was that right?
Tiffany(13:23):
Do you remember? It's,
David(13:24):
I, you know, I don't remember the number and I haven't run them recently. Yeah. Because as long you, I'm not much of a math guy. I just really doubled down on it at moments like that when I really need to be specific. But yeah, I mean, I'm paying, I'm paying $500 a month for my ad. It's bringing me the number of referrals. And it does, it does break down, I think to around sounds like it's like, I think I remember four or $500 per client that signs on with me. Yeah. Then we get into the fee discussion based on the fees that, that I'm charging. If there's anything I want people to understand who watch this or listen to this, it's that we've, we've gotta stop thinking, and this is hard, it's a habit, but we've gotta, when you're not leading a business, when you're just kind of an hourly employee or whatever, everything's about like the dollar amount.
David(14:21):
Right? Oh, that's $500. That's a lot. Unless you charge a thousand dollars an hour, in which case it's one half of one client. Yeah. Right. And so I realized early on that whether it's, whether it's the rent that I'm paying for my facility, whether it's my Google ad, whether it's the cost of something like Limb Academy, whatever it might happen to be now, I just habitually think how many clients would I have to see? Or how many client hours would this be? And typically, and I'm not insulting anybody, this is my own thinking, but typically the way I convince myself, and it took me a long time with you, Tiffany, you know, but ultimately I convince myself just by asking that question enough until I say it's dumb not to do this. Mm-Hmm. Right. It's like, that's, that's kinda where I have to get to. Like, look at how much it's asking you to pay. Look what the, and, and then I'll even do a scenario like where I'll say, Hey, let's say you start Lim, what are you hoping for? What if you only get 20% of what you're hoping for? And I, I run the numbers, and then I go, wow. It would, it would still put me significantly ahead of where I am now. And then I can't justify not doing it anymore.
Tiffany(15:39):
So smart. It's so smart. Yeah. I
David(15:42):
Just keep lowering and lowering and lowering the return. It's like, how much of a failure would this program have to be to make it genuinely like, not worth my money? And typically they're, they turn out to be pretty worth it. Yeah.
Tiffany(15:58):
Okay. For not being a math guy. I mean, you, you, you don't need to know the sense and but, but you have an understanding of the strategy. You're very strategic with how you think about your investments. Yeah,
David(16:08):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Totally.
Tiffany(16:10):
And, and, and to circle back on on this, we don't have the exact numbers, but if it costs you, let's even say the high number, $500 to bring in a client, but then you keep that client for months or even multiple years, you've made many, many, many times that $500 back, which is back to that idea, would be stupid not to do it.
David(16:27):
Yeah. Well, think of it this way. I do couples therapy. It is usually a short I do gottman. Cool. Gottman informed. So it's meant to be a fairly short thing. Typically in the third session, I'll present a treatment plan, and for most couples, it's gonna be somewhere between 10 and 25 sessions after the initial three assessment. So you could get up close to 30, but typically it's 2025. So even then though, if I'm paying $500 a client and I'm charging $300 a session, which is what I was able to get to when I did li I mean, by the time I've done like a session and a half, it's paid for itself. Yeah. Right. So even, even that's, that's what I'm saying is you Yes. I don't even have to do like, oh, if I could keep my client for three years, I'm like, what if, what if I keep 'em for 10 sessions? Yes. Right. That's
Tiffany(17:26):
Right.
David(17:26):
Right. It's still so clearly worth it. And then you think, and both this previous company that I was talking about before counseling wise, and you Tiffany, really kind of helped me do that final push to the 300 level in thinking that way. Yeah. Right. Like, Hey, if I can, if I can get here, then I can afford this kind of investment in my advertising, and I can feel more confident that more people are gonna be filling out my inquiry form. And I rely on that mostly. I mean, I'm, I don't devalue relationships, but I'm an introverted guy. Mm-Hmm . And for introverts who are watching or listening relationships are hugely important, obviously. But the thing that's nice about Google Ads is you can make a decision about where you wanna set your investment that'll bring you the, the clients that you want. And then by all means, keep cultivating the relationships. But as you are doing the work that you wanna do with the number of people that you want,
Tiffany(18:30):
That's exactly right. I think we, we talk a lot in limb about strategic relationship building. And for somebody who does not have the bandwidth or the energy has a disability, has small children, that's not gonna be the way. So then I love the idea of, you know, it has to be for the therapist who has the, the ability to stick in this and actually commit to learning, having a situation where Google ads or I think that's actually the best one where you put money in, get clients out, and you can just see the data. That's my dream. That's my dream scenario. .
David(19:03):
Yeah, . Right. It, it really is. And it's, it, for me, it's the way to go. I mean, I am working with, with counseling wise on a proposal to get away from, can I say specific companies here?
Tiffany(19:16):
Of course. I love it.
David(19:18):
Even if it's not Yeah.
Tiffany(19:19):
Positive.
David(19:20):
Like to, to get away from brighter vision. Oh yeah. If you're with Brighter Vision, right, it's fine. They do okay work. But the problem is your site isn't as easily customizable mm-hmm. As it may need to be, especially if you're out on your own. Mm-Hmm. And you're trying to bring new people to your site. Ideally, I mean, what she's talking about at counseling wise what Becky's talking about is being able to get your site to a point where you're so visible that you're able to either cut down your investment in Google Ads or ditch it entirely. Mm. Right. With
Tiffany(19:54):
SEOS.
David(19:55):
What's that? Yes. Yeah. With SEO Great. Which would be completely amazing, but of course, you know, it, it, it costs quite a bit of money. So I'm, I'm kind of working through that one right now. Right. And I'm very slow.
Tiffany(20:09):
Yes. It takes time. And like the slowly putting the puzzle pieces together in the right order over time, pulling the right levers until you get to where you want to be.
David(20:17):
It does. And the other thing that we have to think about is a lot of us have intimate relationships that we're maintaining. Yes, yes. My wife would totally own this. She's a very conventional, depending on her biweekly paycheck, which by the way, I wouldn't have the freedom to do this the way I'm doing it without that. So not everybody is gonna be able to just replicate my thing. Yeah. Right. I mean, just to be very honest, she makes enough of an income that I've had, not that it's simple or easy, but she makes enough that I'm able to go out and experiment. Yes. Make changes, do what I need to do, have dry months and we have to kind of pull back. Right. but some of this is like kind of trying to maintain that too with somebody who maybe is supportive but wired very differently. Mm-Hmm . And you kind of have to bring them along with you. Yes. You don't wanna damage your relationships , while you're trying to grow your business. Right.
Tiffany(21:20):
I love, they talk about this, especially as a man. 'cause Often I talk to women, you know, we know limb is filled with women and they're, they might have husbands who are like, are you sure? Or even wives, are you sure you should take this risk? Is this okay? Like, they're much more risk averse. So as the entrepreneur or the business owner, you really have to get clear about the decision you're gonna make and then almost bring them into the dream. But you have to have enough confidence to inspire them to come with you on this next experiment.
David(21:45):
YY yes. And you have to have the willingness going in to say, if my partner's not there, now's not the time. Yeah.
Tiffany(21:52):
Interesting.
David(21:53):
You know, I talked about being in ministry for years and stuff. There's this great thing Jesus said, if I might quote for a minute, but he said, what does it profit you if you gain the whole world but lose your soul? Yes. Right. Yeah. And she's my soul. And so I don't wanna do anything that, that, and I have, I have made mistakes, and that's how I've learned this, because I've charged ahead at times and kind of gotten out ahead. And it's not, not her fault, it's just Yeah. My, my problem with not being collaborative enough because we're the business owners, we're the ones taking the risks. You know, it's all about us as therapists and entrepreneurs, but there's this other person whose life it's gonna affect who Yes.
Tiffany(22:35):
You, you are a couple's counsel. I can tell yes. I'm like, just go for it. So, okay, David . Right. What, what Thinking about, so, so catch us up. So I think you joined Lim last maybe 20, 25, is that right? 2025, yeah. 2025. So for folks listening, and even for me, I'm so curious. Yeah. You already had left insurance panels. You already had done Google ads Were and were successful. You understood the numbers, you were working it out. So after doing all of that, you'd been in, you'd been in your career for many years. You did fabulous work. What, why did you feel like there was more to be done? Why were you like, okay, now it's time for limb at that point? That's
David(23:17):
A great, that's a great question. I love the answers so much. And there may be some who really connect with this. I was on the phone with this initial company with one of the guys from this initial company I mentioned, I just can't remember their name. I'm so sorry. But they did great work for me. And I was on the phone with him one day and he said, what's, I was on a, a, a call, a video call, and he said, what's your greatest challenge right now? And I said, well, I'm at one 60 a month, I wanna get to $200 a month. And I said, I, I'm working toward it. He said, what do you mean
Tiffany(23:52):
You're working? You mean one 60 per session or per,
David(23:54):
Per session. Per session.
Tiffany(23:55):
Okay.
David(23:55):
Yeah. And I said, I'm trying to get to $200. And he says, what do you mean you're trying, what does that look like every day? Like, describe like you're trying, like, I love this
Tiffany(24:05):
Guy
David(24:06):
. Yeah. You and I went, well, I guess that just means I'm thinking about it really hard. Right. And he goes, what would stop you from just doing it right now? Well, I'd have to change my paperwork, but have to make some adjustments. Right. And it's like, okay, alright, fine. So an hour of administrative work. But other than that, and I said honestly, a lot of fear. Lot of fear. Right. Which is weird. 'cause I started at a hundred and then within a couple months I went to 1 25 and then I went to one 40, and then I went to one 60. And at every change I kept going, my calls aren't changing. I'm getting the same number of calls, , nothing is changing. Right. So what am I? But for some reason, I got to one 60 and I got stuck. Hmm. Right. And I was stuck there for like eight months or something until I was talking to this guy and he was like, well, what's stopping you from doing it now?
David(25:07):
And, and I realized nothing other than my fear. And I thought that can't be a good enough reason or that's gonna doom my whole life. Right. So I can't let that be a good enough reason. So I just did it effectively, hung up and I went and changed my paperwork and effective the next day. I didn't raise my rates with new clients. Right. I, I just, anytime I did a pay raise, it was always for anybody, I'm sorry, with old clients mm-hmm . All the rates are always for new people coming in. Yeah. Right. I've never, I don't wanna say never, but rarely done discussions with, with older clients. Usually I just let them stay wherever they already are. Be because I think Tiffany, my, my therapy tends to be pretty time limited. Yeah. So yes. I'm not gonna go two years. Yes. Yes. You know what I mean?
David(25:57):
Yeah. We're they're, they're gonna be 10 sessions in and they've got another seven sessions to go or something. Right. Yes. So that makes sense. It's not a huge deal. But that was, that was the move from one 60 to one to 200. And then as I started seeing my health change, I started noticing I didn't have the kind of energy that I needed. I couldn't see as many clients, like every couple was taking, it's felt like more energy out. Mm-Hmm. That's a co specializing in couples is a special kind of stress. Right. Just its own. And not, not that others are easier, whatever. But con conflict and stuff just gets and you've gotta do more self care. Yeah. so I just noticed that things were getting harder and I thought, I can't see as many couples in a week as I was seeing, and I can't see as many couples in a day as I was seeing. I think I'd had four slots for couples. Mm-Hmm. And I went down to three and I had been doing up allowing up to 20, and now I'm at 15 officially. And if I'm at 10, I'm delighted. Yeah.
David(27:05):
Right.
Tiffany(27:06):
So, so you were talking about this
David(27:08):
Guy. Oh, you were the Yeah. I'm sorry. I missed the jump where, where Tiffany comes in. Yeah. Because the question you asked me was like, why were you here? You were at 200 bucks. Like, what's, so as I realized I was getting fewer clients or I was able to take fewer clients, I was like, I still have to get a retirement. There's so many financial things I still need to do but I just can't put in the hours I used to put in. I'm gonna have to find a way to make more money doing less work. So I joined Lim because I could feel like that resistance to going to 200. And I think I was talking to you, I think you and I texted back and forth Yeah. Maybe and you said something like, oh yeah. Right. It shouldn't, it shouldn't be a problem to get you to, and I think you gave like a salary range, but for me, I was just hearing shouldn't be a problem to get you past where you are. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And to me, that did almost the same thing that it had done years, a couple years earlier when I talked to that other person where I was like, that's really what's going on. Right? Like, I'll do limb. Right? We'll, we'll do all the curriculum stuff, but getting past it, ultimately it's right here. And so I think within that week I made paperwork changes. I started bringing in couples at 300. I just made a hundred hour jump and just, just did it. You
Tiffany(28:33):
Went from 200 to 300. Yeah. So, so for folks listening, they might say, well, you didn't need Tiffany to do that. You already could just do that.
David(28:44):
I know, I know. Here's, how
Tiffany(28:45):
Do you think about that?
David(28:46):
The way I think about it is this, I 100% needed Tiffany to do that. Right. Because whatever your obstacle is, I, I needed, I needed that other guy to get me the extra 40 bucks when I was stuck. Right. And I had never taken a leap anywhere near close to a hundred dollars. Right. That was obviously more than twice any kind of a leap I'd ever taken before. And I was terrified in a million ways. I was really scared about the disease and where it was going. So I had a whole lot of different sort of things I was hung up on and hung up with. And so I, I'd always found you inspiring Tiffany. And I'd always found myself feeling motivated, getting some of my, a lot of my head stuff straight whenever I listen to your podcasts or whatever. And so I, I think I really just knew, in fact, the reason I joined limb was because I thought I, I need something that can inspire me and motivate me to, to take this huge leap. And I knew a hundred percent that I would do that if I joined Li Yeah. I didn't know how it would happen through a personal conversation, through material, through another student or something. But I knew for sure that there would be the environment where I would be able to take the leap. It just happened a lot sooner than I thought.
Tiffany(30:18):
Yeah. Very quickly. I I just had the image of you could give me the verse for this, but when you throw your seed onto the soil, and it could be fall on the dry ground, it could fall into the Oh, yes,
David(30:27):
Yes, yes. What is that? Yes, yes. Somewhere in Matthew. I can't remember now, but yes,
Tiffany(30:32):
That's the idea. When I hear you talking about it, you, you were like you understood that there was something that was going to be in the program that was the, the whole program was a fertile ground. Mm-Hmm. You were already ready to be planted. And it could be something Tiffany said, it could be something one of your colleagues said. It could even just be in this environment where you're seeing people do it, that allowed you to just make the leap.
David(30:51):
Yeah. Think of it this way. What, what if I had paid whatever I paid at the time for Li and the only thing that happened in Li what if I didn't do any of the classes? Right. I didn't spend any of the time doing any of the stuff, but we had had that conversation. I raised my rates and then got out. Yeah. Right? Yes. Would it have been worth what I paid? Of course, yes. Every penny. Yeah. Right. So that's right. I've heard you before Tiffany, talking about the amount of money that you paid for to get into training situations, right? Yes. Yeah. So we, when we're doing the analysis, we're like, what is she gonna teach that's going to get me to this place? And we're very like, what's the exchange? Mm-Hmm . Right? Mm-Hmm . What am I gonna get in return? And I think instead of that, it's more like, how are you wanting to change at this moment in your life? You make the investment in yourself in your own desire to change, and you have just opened yourself to receiving it wherever it comes from. And maybe it's the whole class, maybe it's one conversation with one person. Maybe it's none of that. You have a dream one night and you wake up inspired the next day. But probably you wouldn't have had that dream if you hadn't put yourself in this place where you're trying to like, think differently.
Tiffany(32:12):
Yes. That's exactly right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think it comes, it makes me think about when you, you said how I, I speak openly about how much we invest. I think last year we invested in the company when the company was struggling LA in 2024. We invested in the beginning of 2025, something like, I don't know, 20 or 30,000 to work with a company. And we made X but we got back to like the high, almost close to the highest levels we we'd ever gotten. I believe in learning from people and investing money. And I think, think that allows me to confidently come to you all and be like, look, folks.
David(32:42):
Yes.
Tiffany(32:43):
It's obvious.
David(32:44):
Totally. That's totally it. Yeah.
Tiffany(32:46):
So you are booking people now at 300 procession. Correct. Hmm.
David(32:50):
In fact, I just did a consult this morning, and it was interesting. One of the questions they asked, they said, we're a little unclear about your pricing structure. And I said, okay, what's the question? And they said, we noticed that your intake is 3 75. I said, yep. And then it goes immediately to 300 per all the other. And they said something like oh, is that, oh, here's what they said. Is that 300 per person or is it 300 per session? Because we just need to know how to budget. Right. And, and for the first time since I moved to 300, I was like, maybe I'm not high enough yet. . Yes. Right. I was like, there, there's actually those people out there. Holy cow.
Tiffany(33:32):
Yes. Yes. I've already been thinking, honestly, and we'll talk about it in a moment, how, how are we gonna get you more money already? I'm like, oh, we just didn't need some math. So we'll talk about that before we do. One of the things you, I think you texted Yeah, you texted me this, you had talked about a a review someone gave on this podcast and you were so frustrated about it. Oh, do you remember what, what was the review and what was frustrating to you about it?
David(33:57):
Yes. I, I remember clearly enough the person like once started and they were like, come on, not everybody has the ideal situation. A lot of us have a lot of obstacles. Why aren't you honest about that? Right. And I wrote to Tiffany and I was like, look at this guy. Right? I was like, oh, like I can't believe it. 'cause I'd listened to the podcast enough to know, like, I've heard a lot of people talk, but I remember writing to Tiffany and just going, so I really hope that when I get to do mine, I get to spend a little bit of time just I talking about the obstacles part of that I've already done by saying, you know, I, excuse me, I keep wiggling my desk. Part of it I tried to hit just by saying I couldn't have done some of what I've done if I didn't have a supportive partner who makes a good amount of money.
David(34:48):
But one thing I do know, and I'm not just trying to be a, I don't know, I, I know that if it were different, I would figure out some way not to do what I'm doing. Right. But to do something different that would get me further ahead. Right. Because there's, I I, I have to, I feel like I have to do that. Right. So I think, I think the first thing that needs to happen is people have to get clear on, can you be okay where you are? Right. Can you, can you be okay working with insurance, seeing 40 clients a whatever it is, right? If, if that brings you joy. Right? If that makes you feel pumped up and fired up. I really miss having other people around. I'm down in my basement office a lot. So if you're the kind of person that says, oh, I could never do that, then maybe it's totally okay to stay where you are.
David(35:51):
Right. It's, it's okay to be where you are, but what I see online is a lot of people griping endlessly about their situations. And anytime, not just me, but anytime anybody tries to, well, have you thought this? Or have you tried such and such? We always get the, the privilege comment. So, well, you know, you may be privileged enough that this and this, which then automatically, whether it's me or, you know, somebody else, right. Who's paid their own dues or whatever. But it undermines the fact that like, we, you can't get away from making struggles or sac, you know, struggles and sacrifices are just gonna be part of the deal. Mm-Hmm. Right? And so it's not like I've seen people before, like maybe who lose weight, and then after they have a different body, they start being really cruel to other people who are struggling with their weight.
David(36:51):
Right. I want it to be the other way around. I want it to be like, I've been there, I know those struggles, and it, it breeds more compassion for that feeling of stuckness. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So, so for me, it's not at all about making it sound easy or you know, that, that you just sign up for limb and like everything just gets fixed or whatever. Although in my case, it may almost sound like that because it really was this instantaneous, I'm going to 300. But at the same time, you make the decision, but you also realize I might have to increase my ad spend. Or you do fear. Like, what if I find that like nobody clicks on my ad anymore. Right? So no matter what decision you make, you're gonna encounter resistance. There's no way around it. Stephen Pressfield, the War of art, ah,
Tiffany(37:51):
The art of war.
David(37:53):
Sun is the heart of war. This
Tiffany(37:54):
Is different. The war of
David(37:56):
Art. Stephen Pressfield, the War of Art. Oh,
David(38:00):
It's a book that talks about creating something. And he says, anytime that you're trying to create something, resistance is going to be your constant companion. He's like, so let it in. Right? Get in the driver's seat, slap on your seatbelt, let resistance in, but don't let it play with the radio. He says, right. Like, I know you're gonna be with me no matter where I go, no matter what I'm doing. Right. But you don't get to call the shots. So on the level of dealing with resistance and all that, I'm saying all of these great. I I love hearing myself say these things because I keep thinking, oh, I should listen to this. Right. I should listen to what I'm saying because as of right now, I have a completed 66,000 word book that I wrote nine years ago that I've never published. Wow.
Tiffany(38:57):
Okay.
David(38:59):
Right? Mm-Hmm . What is that? Mm-Hmm . Right? It's resistance. Mm-Hmm.
David(39:05):
So it's not like, it's not like you get to a point where you like overcome your resistance. Maybe you overcome it over here. Right. But it's still really beating down your door over there. Right. And, and that's what I think is hard to convey to people. Yeah. You come on something like this and you're like, oh, here's my transition from insurance and $150 a client or whatever to 200, 300, $400 a client. And maybe some people interpret that as, oh, here's how I went from not being where I needed to be to arriving. And instead it's like, here's how I, with great difficulty made some good progress that I'm having to constantly work on that brings up frequent questions and issues and problems that I constantly have to work to resolve and seek encouragement and training. Right. But there's still other areas of my life where resistance has completely got me by the throat. Yes. Right. So, you know, it's not like you'll ever just like get there.
Tiffany(40:11):
Yes. It's almost like I, I'm so inspired by all, all the things you're saying are making me think about how resistance is showing up in my life and in what areas. I really love this conversation. Yeah.
David(40:20):
There's something, because I do, I do see you, Tiffany, I do, is this highly motivational person that is like, figured out a way to like, just bust through all the stuff. But there's, there's no way that's possible.
Tiffany(40:32):
No, it's not true. So I need to talk more about the, I need to talk more about these areas in my life so people can see like, oh, at every level it's a different, it's a, maybe the game is being played at a different scale. Like, you are now playing in a $300 game instead of the 200 or one $60 game, but you're still having the same themes are coming up no matter what
David(40:51):
Ex Exactly. And the thing is, if you think that, oh, this person has, has figured it all out, what you're really saying is there's no place else for this person to go. They've maxed out their potential. There's no other opportunities. Because if there still is potential, and there still are opportunities, those by definition are places where resistance is coming in. And you have to deal with anxiety and fear and self-confidence stuff.
Tiffany(41:19):
You are gonna come live in my pocket. David . We're gonna, we're gonna get to that in a moment. Okay. I have two more questions for you. This is already like, I could talk to you forever. So here are my two, my first question oh, so from, from by all, by all appearances, you're a Christian White guy, you know, middle age just so kind and present and thoughtful in this marriage. That's so sound. And then there's Tiffany, at least by all all appearances, biracial, also middle aged. But let's say in my forties swearing raucous woman, what, what appealed to you about, you are not my typical person who comes to work with me. What, what, what, why did you
David(42:11):
Well to answer it in kind of a different way. Yeah. One of the reasons, perhaps one of the big reasons why I took as long as I did is because I didn't know if I would be welcomed.
Tiffany(42:23):
Oh, yeah. Mm-Hmm .
David(42:25):
Mm-Hmm . Because it was, you are so clear about what your mission is. Yes. Which is exactly what you should be, right? Mm-Hmm. And I was like, every morning I'd get up and I'd be like, no, still white, still an older guy, still . You know, it's like I'm no closer to being Tiffany's ideal client today than I was yesterday. In fact, I'm probably a little, I'm probably more white today than I was yesterday. Right. In some ways. So I'm like, that was, that was a big part identity wise of like you know, maybe this isn't the group for me, and I didn't wanna be the guy. Like, what about me? Would it be okay? And I thought, you know what, just take enough time, be around her enough wa read enough of her notes, watch enough of her stuff that you get a feel of what her heart is.
David(43:15):
Mm-Hmm. Right? Because I know I have the struggle that people know I was in the ministry. Mm-Hmm. Right? And they come in and they're like, oh, we're really worried because we're not religious, or we're not whatever, and I can't say emphatically enough, I have no interest in changing what you believe. Whatever. Right. And so I'm like, I I, I just had to get to a point where I felt confident in that. Yeah. That like, I'm gonna come into this community and so what, by the way, if it's 99% women and you know, black women, Asian women, whatever, I'm like, welcome to the club. That's a man in this field anyway. How much differe is it gonna be? Be, yeah. Right. So, so I don't know if that's a good enough answer, but that's, that's
Tiffany(44:04):
A great answer. Yeah. You're the second person actually this month who said, and this was a woman, maybe she was a white woman. She was like, oh, I thought I wasn't allowed in. And I was like, oh, wait, what? So does show something about niching and the, and, and that you, you also came in, oh, go ahead Tiffany.
David(44:18):
You're the kind of person that if you didn't want us in the group, you would have on your website like, off
Tiffany(44:25):
. It's true.
David(44:26):
Right? I guess, I guess it's true attention. Everyone over this age, these people, this Right. Right off. Because there's, I mean, that's, you're very, you're very clear. Right? So I thought if that was a problem, it would be obvious to me it was a problem. Because she's, she's not an indirect person.
Tiffany(44:47):
And I talked to you for years, so clearly I I liked you for years. Right. You also came in and you, I think you DMed me in the group of like, I'm gonna start a men's group or something like that. Do you remember that? Oh, mm-hmm . And I was like, yay. Like for any men who didn't feel like it was like, oh, can I speak up here? Or like, I don't wanna take space from someone else. You created a place for folks to have those conversations that they wanted.
David(45:08):
Yeah. And it, it was fine, right? Like it's all, it's all men who do therapy. And so we should be more hopefully emotionally attuned. And there were some good conversations in, in that group, but as you know, I was struggling with my health and other issues. I was so distracted through most of it. I mean, I I didn't even finish it. Right?
Tiffany(45:28):
Yeah. That's Yes.
David(45:30):
, yes.
Tiffany(45:31):
But also when people, also, when you talk about finishing the program, I had someone who I talked to earlier, I guess this would've been late last year since we're in the, already this year. And she said, I feel like a failure because I never finished limb and I want to come back. This was like in 2022. And I said, oh, tell me a little more. And she said, well, I came in, I did a couple of things in the program, significantly increased my fee, was able to buy my house in LA and I didn't do anything else. And I'm like, what do you, you don't, what are we talking? That is not in my mind the idea of like, I have to go through every module and do everything. And that means I'm like, that is not how I think about success.
David(46:03):
Yeah. Define the, define the failure in there. I'm not seeing it .
Tiffany(46:07):
I also the same, what are we talking about? Okay, David. Two or three minutes I wanna talk about, since I have you I see I've never had this long of a conversation with you and, and, and not where I can see you. Yeah. I'm, I'm so glad you mentioned this book. 'cause I was already thinking, oh, how do we, not, not in a, in immense way, but just an easy tweak, scale your revenue. Mm-Hmm . Have you thought about, for example, running a group for men where you're charging a hundred or 200 per session, or a package like x amount per month for 10 sessions with this men's group to do X, Y, Z. Have you thought about doing something like that, which you make much more in your 90 minutes than 300, or,
David(46:50):
I had not thought about it at all. Dang. I, one of, one of the reasons is because I don't know how to say this. I'm, I'm just gonna, oh, I'm embarrassed to say it. I am, I, I don't feel like I connect as well to men.
Tiffany(47:06):
Right. Or, or, or any group. Let's say men aside, let's say women, any, anybody, then mm-hmm . Any, any, have you thought about doing it for any community?
David(47:12):
Like just groups of some kind is what you're talking
Tiffany(47:14):
Yeah. Adding a group.
David(47:16):
I had not thought about it at
Tiffany(47:17):
All. I, I seeing your personality on this visual hearing, how you talk, you already have this book. What's your book about?
David(47:25):
It's called Living Truthfully. It's about, there's a a, there's a kind of a long subtitle to it, and I've been out of it for long enough now. Sure. I can't remember it exactly, but it's like it has to do with why, how to live truthfully and, and why most people aren't already doing. So it's like, I can't remember exactly what it's, but it's, it's for people, it's for people who've, you know, maybe they're deconstructing their faith, maybe they've been in the church, but it feels very inadequate to today's issues, which is a hundred percent me. I'm the audience for that. Yeah. and it's really just trying to mo help people move from a, you know, hoping to have some kind of encounter with God to like helping people. This is just my worldview. Yeah. But helping people understand that to me, God is truth and it's the source of truth.
David(48:21):
Yeah. So the question is, what do you need to do in your life right now? Well, I need to get more clients and I need to, you know, move toward retirement. Securing, okay, well then that's the truth of your life. God is in that truth. So do you step toward it or do you step away from it? I'm trying to help people who have some kind of desire, some spiritual desire to understand that it's not like spiritual platitudes and obedience necessarily to like rules and stuff. It's realizing the truth is in your life at this very moment. And showing people we, we walk through like Freudian defense mechanisms, we use psychology and all that. Like, look at all the different ways we have to miss the truth when it's right in front of our eyes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that's, that's what that's about.
Tiffany(49:12):
There's an author who you're making me think about, we'll, we will talk about this offline, I don't know if you're interested. And I think about how I don't recommend most therapists do this until they get to the point where they are at their life. First fee. They have a, a system to be bringing in clients consistently. You know, you have a, you have your stream of folks you, you understand how to help these people stay for your, the sessions you want 'em to stay for the 20 or whatever that you're doing. Fabulous work with them. That system only when you're at this point, it what's the word I'm looking for? I can't quite get the word, but it's a, a setup for boop, just bumping it up to one extra level where now you're running a group with eight people at, at a higher intensity for 10 weeks. Not a higher intensity, you're just doing what you already do. But even this idea of the living truthfully framework, I'm gonna take people through 10 sessions, 10 week package living. Truthfully, it's X amount, $5,000 for the package. Yeah. Funnel 'em in. I think there's huge possibility for you there.
David(50:14):
I I love that.
Tiffany(50:15):
Okay. You haven't thought about that.
David(50:18):
I have. I follow this guy online, I can't remember his name right now. He's a guy that, that brings people that, that runs a business, that shows healthcare professionals how to like, move to the next level so that they can do high, you know, high value high ticket projects. Yeah. make money while they're, like on cruises and stuff 'cause of video packages or, you know, whatever. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I've, I've done a lot of thinking about it. But frankly, I, I don't have this book published. I've got so much stuff I feel like I need to wrap up that I've already started. Yeah.
Tiffany(50:55):
Okay. We might go, we're gonna take this conversation offline, I think. Awesome.
David(50:58):
Yeah,
Tiffany(50:58):
I think there's a couple of levers you could pull before you that doesn't make, it doesn't have to be complicated. Yes. It doesn't have to be complicated. Yes. WW final final thought. What would you say to folks who are listening? So this, this has been a roundabout conversation that's touched on so many things and been so thoughtful for the person who's listening now, who is in this place of knowing. Alright. Maybe they're even cash pay, fully cash pay charging one 60 or even 200. And they're starting to get to the season of their life where they realize this even this is not enough. I need to work less and I need to earn more. And I'm just terrified to take it the next step. What is one piece of either strategy or even a mindset shift you would offer them at this phase, at this moment, this key moment?
David(51:44):
Yes. If I had to boil it down as much as I humanly could boil it down, I would say dedicate as much time as you need to to finding someone who inspires you. Right. if, if you can't, if you can't find that, then you're always going to be, inspiration is like the fuel inspiration is the sort of the gasoline behind everything. Right? If somebody made a logical case to me about, oh, you won't lose clients when you move from two to 300. Right. Don't, don't worry about it. Somebody tried to make a logical case. It, it wouldn't work. I needed to find somebody who would, who would inspire it. Right. Somebody that I think models it. So find it in reading, find it in podcasts, find it in like other people in your community. However you have to find it. I, I think that's the number one thing. You've gotta find people who draw it out of you.
Tiffany(52:48):
David, if people are listening right now, and I know they are, and they're feeling so inspired by you and they wanna set up a paid consultation where they just ask you some questions about your life or your journey or even the obstacles are you open to that?
David(53:01):
Oh, absolutely. Oh, that'd be amazing. I'd love it.
Tiffany(53:03):
Yeah. They're gonna, they're gonna, the the people you wanna talk to, David, I'm gonna tell you that right now. How can they get ahold of you,
David(53:10):
Dave, at David Flowers therapy.com?
Tiffany(53:12):
Dave@Davidflowerstherapy.Com and We will put that in the show notes too. David, thank you so much. This has been a pleasure.
David(53:20):
Thank you. Any, any chance to spend time talking to you is, is a highlight for me, so thank you, Tiffany. I appreciate it.
Tiffany(53:27):
The feeling is mutual. I have so many notes. I'm so excited. Awesome.