1 00:00:04,580 --> 00:00:05,270 All right. 2 00:00:05,330 --> 00:00:06,830 Welcome to Hacking your ADHD. 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:09,260 I'm your host, William Curb, and I have ADHD. 4 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,650 On this podcast, I dig into the tools, tactics, and best practices to 5 00:00:12,650 --> 00:00:14,480 help you work with your ADHD Brain. 6 00:00:14,990 --> 00:00:17,810 Today I'm joined by Sky Waterson for our research recap series. 7 00:00:18,380 --> 00:00:20,840 In this series, we take a look at a single research paper and dive 8 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,170 into what the paper says, how it was conducted, and try and find any 9 00:00:24,170 --> 00:00:25,670 practical takeaways that we can give you. 10 00:00:26,060 --> 00:00:28,300 In this episode, we're gonna be discussing a paper called Brain 11 00:00:28,300 --> 00:00:32,410 potentials reveal reduced attention and error processing during a monetary 12 00:00:32,410 --> 00:00:34,510 go, no go task in procrastination. 13 00:00:35,170 --> 00:00:37,840 And this is a study that's looking at how procrastinators handle 14 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,790 mistakes and try to stay focused, especially when tasks get harder. 15 00:00:41,790 --> 00:00:45,150 And how those differences in rewards and punishment affects those outcomes. 16 00:00:46,020 --> 00:00:47,460 So a lot there. 17 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,190 And, uh, I'm gonna tell you, this paper has a ton of acronyms 18 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:51,810 and so, uh, let's get into 19 00:00:51,885 --> 00:00:53,465 Yeah, a ton of acronyms. 20 00:00:53,465 --> 00:00:56,675 But we love our neuroscience papers because they show us how 21 00:00:56,675 --> 00:00:59,945 the brain is working differently, and I got asked a question about 22 00:00:59,945 --> 00:01:02,075 that on a podcast yesterday, and it's nice to be able to say. 23 00:01:02,525 --> 00:01:04,145 Yes, this is happening. 24 00:01:04,145 --> 00:01:04,835 This is different. 25 00:01:05,495 --> 00:01:08,195 Okay, so what they were looking at is they basically said, you know, 26 00:01:08,195 --> 00:01:12,035 procrastination, which we all know, but just to give you a reminder, is a 27 00:01:12,035 --> 00:01:14,355 phenomenon which people voluntarily. 28 00:01:14,405 --> 00:01:19,865 delay intended and necessary and or personally important tasks despite 29 00:01:19,865 --> 00:01:23,405 knowing that delaying will have more negative than positive consequences. 30 00:01:23,435 --> 00:01:26,405 We've all done that many times probably today. 31 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,570 And so this is a huge thing people talk about all the time, 32 00:01:30,570 --> 00:01:32,995 so it's really important to get a sense of what's going on. 33 00:01:33,595 --> 00:01:40,075 Yeah, there's, and especially going what are the outcomes of these 34 00:01:40,075 --> 00:01:44,935 procrastination things like what causes, what's the outcome of procrastination 35 00:01:44,935 --> 00:01:46,345 beyond the task not getting 36 00:01:46,345 --> 00:01:46,735 done? 37 00:01:47,395 --> 00:01:47,845 Yeah. 38 00:01:48,025 --> 00:01:49,765 Yeah, exactly. 39 00:01:50,395 --> 00:01:56,605 So they were looking at, um, they basically had 179 students. 40 00:01:56,725 --> 00:01:59,370 Only 48 of those were male, which is quite. 41 00:02:00,085 --> 00:02:02,125 Unusual, usually more males. 42 00:02:02,545 --> 00:02:05,935 Um, but they weren't specifically looking at ADHD, they were 43 00:02:05,935 --> 00:02:07,315 looking at procrastination. 44 00:02:07,315 --> 00:02:11,095 And I thought that was maybe an interesting difference in how they 45 00:02:11,095 --> 00:02:14,555 usually, they're like, we, this is how we figured out if these people have ADHD. 46 00:02:14,575 --> 00:02:16,165 They didn't do that in this study. 47 00:02:16,165 --> 00:02:22,960 They were looking for, they were working in, looking at people who. 48 00:02:24,445 --> 00:02:25,165 Just struggled. 49 00:02:25,435 --> 00:02:30,085 They, actually excluded participants with psychiatric or neurological illnesses. 50 00:02:30,685 --> 00:02:36,115 It was really a study where they were going, Hey, this is a like mental 51 00:02:36,115 --> 00:02:39,280 profile of what happens with ADHD and we're just gonna look at that. 52 00:02:39,385 --> 00:02:41,235 What did you think about that, by the way? 53 00:02:41,585 --> 00:02:46,355 So yeah, it was a very interesting study design being going, yeah, we're going 54 00:02:46,355 --> 00:02:52,655 to have this aspect of not taking ADHD into account and just using that profile. 55 00:02:53,015 --> 00:02:56,165 And there are some great ways to like that. 56 00:02:56,345 --> 00:02:57,005 opens up a lot of 57 00:02:59,135 --> 00:03:02,085 Pathways to like, oh, we're not just looking specifically ADHD, 58 00:03:02,105 --> 00:03:05,535 we're looking at what people with ADHD do, which is procrastinate. 59 00:03:05,915 --> 00:03:09,335 and I think that is why I have that problem with this design is where I'm 60 00:03:09,335 --> 00:03:11,225 like, this is what they're saying exists. 61 00:03:11,225 --> 00:03:15,695 And I'm like, Because often like looking at the why behind 62 00:03:15,695 --> 00:03:20,435 procrastination is a bigger issue than just saying procrastination happens. 63 00:03:20,435 --> 00:03:26,525 And with executive dysfunction, that changes why procrastination is happening. 64 00:03:27,395 --> 00:03:28,295 yeah, exactly. 65 00:03:28,295 --> 00:03:28,895 Exactly. 66 00:03:29,255 --> 00:03:33,005 So basically what they did was this was a combination of 67 00:03:33,005 --> 00:03:35,075 an activity and brain scans. 68 00:03:35,075 --> 00:03:41,465 So people were doing a modified version of a go no go task, which is basically. 69 00:03:42,260 --> 00:03:48,320 Looking at, um, yeah, how they are responding to things that say like, 70 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,680 you've gotta start, you've gotta stop all of those different, things 71 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:53,870 for monetary rewards specifically. 72 00:03:53,870 --> 00:03:58,550 And there was conversation about that, and then they were looking at, um, 73 00:03:58,580 --> 00:04:04,430 yeah, F MRIs and, um, and making sure that, uh, trying to scan their brain, 74 00:04:04,430 --> 00:04:08,750 which I don't know how, how helpful did you feel like the brain scan? 75 00:04:09,140 --> 00:04:10,010 it was interesting. 76 00:04:11,465 --> 00:04:14,465 Yeah, it was certainly interesting, but it, I don't know. 77 00:04:14,795 --> 00:04:20,165 I felt like it was a step that they didn't need with just looking at, it 78 00:04:20,165 --> 00:04:23,765 does give a lot of oh, this is how the brain is interacting during these 79 00:04:23,765 --> 00:04:24,005 tasks. 80 00:04:24,830 --> 00:04:25,100 Great. 81 00:04:25,730 --> 00:04:29,660 But the more important takeaways for this study all came from 82 00:04:29,810 --> 00:04:31,370 the results of the No go. 83 00:04:31,370 --> 00:04:32,330 No the go. 84 00:04:32,330 --> 00:04:32,930 No go. 85 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:33,740 Part of it. 86 00:04:34,070 --> 00:04:39,890 And while they did relate the brain studies aspects of it, I was like, that's 87 00:04:39,890 --> 00:04:43,340 just a additional piece of data there. 88 00:04:43,340 --> 00:04:47,390 That's interesting, but not actually giving me meaningful information. 89 00:04:47,705 --> 00:04:48,635 yeah, exactly. 90 00:04:48,635 --> 00:04:51,725 It was nice to see, but it wasn't, it wasn't necessary, which is, 91 00:04:51,725 --> 00:04:52,835 which is not always the case. 92 00:04:52,835 --> 00:04:55,235 Like usually, um, usually it's the opposite. 93 00:04:55,835 --> 00:04:57,230 Um, when you're doing these kind of brain scans. 94 00:04:57,830 --> 00:05:02,015 And I do think it's important here to be like, Hey, we're not neuroscience 95 00:05:02,315 --> 00:05:02,915 Oh yeah. 96 00:05:04,220 --> 00:05:06,380 so that, that might be why we're like playing like, yeah, 97 00:05:06,380 --> 00:05:07,520 this isn't that important. 98 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:09,440 This isn't what is interesting to us. 99 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:10,820 We're interested in the actual results. 100 00:05:10,820 --> 00:05:13,250 And the neuroscientists might be going like, yeah, but 101 00:05:13,550 --> 00:05:14,675 Yeah, very true. 102 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:15,005 Very 103 00:05:15,020 --> 00:05:16,910 look at how the brain is lighting up. 104 00:05:16,910 --> 00:05:19,040 And I'm like, yeah, I don't have enough background information 105 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,125 to make that relevant to me. 106 00:05:21,155 --> 00:05:24,155 I haven't done, and yeah, I've done post-grad neuroscience, but. 107 00:05:24,710 --> 00:05:25,640 It still didn't hit. 108 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,310 So if someone else has something that really mattered, 109 00:05:28,310 --> 00:05:29,690 like definitely let us know. 110 00:05:29,690 --> 00:05:30,440 That would be amazing. 111 00:05:30,470 --> 00:05:31,280 Maybe we'll have you on. 112 00:05:32,420 --> 00:05:37,010 but yeah, so basically they were looking at post era slowing. 113 00:05:37,010 --> 00:05:41,600 So they found that, post era slowing was increased in people who were 114 00:05:41,930 --> 00:05:44,510 high academic procrastinators. 115 00:05:45,470 --> 00:05:47,135 what, which was really interesting. 116 00:05:47,435 --> 00:05:48,605 It's the, 117 00:05:51,155 --> 00:05:55,175 now I've got another acronym that I forgot, the ERN, the 118 00:05:55,175 --> 00:05:57,215 error related negativity. 119 00:05:58,550 --> 00:06:03,590 Like that they, yeah, they were seeing this at as a, maybe related 120 00:06:03,590 --> 00:06:06,920 to problems and how they're allocating those brain resources. 121 00:06:07,130 --> 00:06:10,130 And this is why they were like really wanting to look at those brain scans. 122 00:06:10,130 --> 00:06:13,190 It's oh, how are we, how are they allocating these resources? 123 00:06:13,740 --> 00:06:14,610 these people that are, 124 00:06:17,100 --> 00:06:20,730 Academic procrastinators are doing this thing where they are having 125 00:06:20,730 --> 00:06:23,790 more problems, allocating resources and based on how they did the study, 126 00:06:23,790 --> 00:06:26,400 they're like, oh, this is, you know, like reduced motivational engagement. 127 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:31,110 And I'm like, it's really hard to accurately measure in a study that is 128 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:37,530 money was involved, you have the financial motivation there, but it's not, you know, 129 00:06:37,530 --> 00:06:39,060 it's like the difference between getting. 130 00:06:39,825 --> 00:06:41,235 $5 or $10 or something, 131 00:06:41,505 --> 00:06:41,925 Mm-hmm. 132 00:06:42,305 --> 00:06:46,385 when you're talking about this, then what they found was that they discussed Yeah. 133 00:06:46,445 --> 00:06:49,565 Procrastinators had problems with executive control. 134 00:06:49,565 --> 00:06:50,795 That's what they theorized. 135 00:06:51,095 --> 00:06:54,485 Um, and that they needed time to reorient their attention from 136 00:06:54,485 --> 00:06:58,265 committing a mistake to response execution in the following trial. 137 00:06:58,475 --> 00:07:01,535 Now I highlighted that 'cause I thought that was a really. 138 00:07:02,210 --> 00:07:08,090 Solid, you know, suggestion in terms of just the way that it describes how people 139 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:13,550 work, you know, the way that people, um, with, you know, more of this, which they 140 00:07:13,550 --> 00:07:18,650 then discussed as potentially having ADHD, they need time to reorientate it 141 00:07:18,650 --> 00:07:22,820 reminded me of that bleed effect, that transition time conversation as well. 142 00:07:23,420 --> 00:07:23,870 Yeah. 143 00:07:23,870 --> 00:07:28,370 And it was also then really interesting too with the, differences between the, 144 00:07:31,730 --> 00:07:35,900 regular go no go versus the like higher intensity one. 145 00:07:37,340 --> 00:07:39,980 which, they had that like twist where it's oh yeah, the hard level. 146 00:07:39,980 --> 00:07:44,480 You now have procrastinators had a, significant dip in 147 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:45,470 their performance because. 148 00:07:47,015 --> 00:07:50,675 Which is, this is where I find it very interesting 'cause this is where you 149 00:07:50,675 --> 00:07:55,775 see that executive function, if you are. 150 00:07:56,255 --> 00:07:58,655 So lemme describe what the hard level was first. 151 00:07:58,735 --> 00:08:01,495 So in the regular No go, go, no go. 152 00:08:01,495 --> 00:08:04,405 It's like you have, you know, a series of digits that are put on the 153 00:08:04,405 --> 00:08:10,705 screen, like, and then, you're like one through two, you push go and then. 154 00:08:11,290 --> 00:08:13,300 The rest of the digits you just don't, or something, you know? 155 00:08:13,300 --> 00:08:16,060 So there's like two things and you, and they're measuring how 156 00:08:16,060 --> 00:08:18,820 quickly you are pushing the button. 157 00:08:19,060 --> 00:08:22,360 But with the hard mode, you have to like really think about it because 158 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,950 it's now, you have, a specific digit you're not supposed to push anything on. 159 00:08:27,610 --> 00:08:30,880 And then also if a digit is repeated, even if it's a go. 160 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,580 So it's one was the go and you had one. 161 00:08:33,850 --> 00:08:34,720 Okay, go first. 162 00:08:34,990 --> 00:08:35,890 Then it repeats the one. 163 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,570 Don't push it for the second time, so it's really amping up that oh, I have 164 00:08:40,570 --> 00:08:45,700 to think about what's on the screen and what previously happened, and so I can 165 00:08:46,180 --> 00:08:50,140 actually see being like, I basically be like pounding the key and forgetting it 166 00:08:50,140 --> 00:08:53,410 all the time, being like, I'm trying to get fast, but I'm not doing it right. 167 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:58,090 It's also a funny one, because it does remind me of there is a relationship 168 00:08:58,090 --> 00:09:04,720 between ADHD, and these kinds of things and dyspraxia, and I feel like there 169 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:10,510 is a conversation here about just general ability to move your body. 170 00:09:10,900 --> 00:09:15,760 Fast enough and all of those kinds of things coming into play as well. 171 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,040 Like how good are your reaction times? 172 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,920 I don't know if that's specifically related to ADHD, 173 00:09:21,310 --> 00:09:23,440 but, but it is a conversation. 174 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:27,160 Like I, I think I would struggle to do that just because my body 175 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,940 and my brain are not working at the same speed, generally speaking. 176 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:31,435 Yeah. 177 00:09:32,365 --> 00:09:33,955 And it would also be interesting to see this with like 178 00:09:33,955 --> 00:09:35,305 frustration tolerance going in, 179 00:09:36,430 --> 00:09:37,150 Hmm. 180 00:09:37,225 --> 00:09:39,625 to do it in the beginning and then being like, I'm not getting it 'cause 181 00:09:39,625 --> 00:09:41,125 I'm going, trying to go too fast. 182 00:09:41,125 --> 00:09:41,935 And now I'm trying to 183 00:09:44,035 --> 00:09:45,955 the other way and I'm going too slow now. 184 00:09:45,955 --> 00:09:46,405 And it's, 185 00:09:46,420 --> 00:09:46,705 Yeah. 186 00:09:47,140 --> 00:09:49,750 Like for example, if they, and okay, we're, we're getting 187 00:09:49,750 --> 00:09:50,650 a little bit away from it. 188 00:09:50,740 --> 00:09:56,800 Um, but, you know, if they had, had somebody who was a procrast, 189 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:02,950 an academic procrastinator who was also played a sport, whether 190 00:10:02,950 --> 00:10:04,420 that would've had a difference. 191 00:10:04,420 --> 00:10:07,660 It just, it, feels like it's a lot of. 192 00:10:07,870 --> 00:10:09,580 And I, these are always the cases. 193 00:10:09,580 --> 00:10:12,130 I'm not saying this isn't, this is, you know, a really good study. 194 00:10:12,130 --> 00:10:15,790 They tried to, think of everything, but it's just a curiosity. 195 00:10:16,390 --> 00:10:16,690 Yeah. 196 00:10:18,220 --> 00:10:18,460 Yeah. 197 00:10:18,460 --> 00:10:21,010 And really if we're like just looking at this paper overall, yeah, there are 198 00:10:21,010 --> 00:10:22,360 some great things that we can take away. 199 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,080 it's like just looking at this, procrastination as like this 200 00:10:26,890 --> 00:10:32,920 fundamentally linked to our like attentional fluctuations and the. 201 00:10:35,035 --> 00:10:37,765 Very much implies that, if we're just focusing on something like 202 00:10:37,765 --> 00:10:41,005 time management, that isn't going to help with procrastination because 203 00:10:41,005 --> 00:10:42,205 that's not the problem that's 204 00:10:42,235 --> 00:10:42,925 we're dealing with. 205 00:10:43,420 --> 00:10:45,160 Yeah, that's a really, really good point. 206 00:10:45,460 --> 00:10:49,060 Can you give me an example of, what this would look like in real life? 207 00:10:50,030 --> 00:10:54,630 I think for specifically like this is like being like, I 208 00:10:54,630 --> 00:10:57,510 have a deadline coming up and. 209 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:05,040 In a month and being like, oh, I'm going to, trying to manage your time 210 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,860 there beforehand is really hard. 211 00:11:07,890 --> 00:11:13,020 If we're looking at this purely from a procrastination, time management, oh, I'm 212 00:11:13,020 --> 00:11:14,580 gonna work at these times, all that stuff. 213 00:11:14,940 --> 00:11:18,750 This is oh, I need to have a bunch of other strategies in place so that 214 00:11:18,750 --> 00:11:19,980 I'm not procrastinating on this. 215 00:11:20,220 --> 00:11:22,650 Just having that month deadline is not enough for me 216 00:11:22,650 --> 00:11:23,010 to. 217 00:11:23,940 --> 00:11:24,300 Do that. 218 00:11:24,300 --> 00:11:28,020 That's, and it doesn't matter how well I'm putting together my calendar, 219 00:11:28,260 --> 00:11:31,590 if I don't have other things put in place, like accountability, 220 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,650 like specific times I'm working with someone for the accountability and like 221 00:11:38,700 --> 00:11:40,500 working out the steps that need to happen. 222 00:11:41,010 --> 00:11:42,030 Yeah, exactly. 223 00:11:42,300 --> 00:11:45,390 It's funny actually, 'cause this is an academic example, and I always think of 224 00:11:45,390 --> 00:11:50,700 my clients, I've had clients in academia who write papers for a living, found 225 00:11:50,700 --> 00:11:55,740 that they almost entirely had to write papers with a team for that reason. 226 00:11:55,890 --> 00:11:58,620 Like the deadline, the single deadline was not. 227 00:11:58,980 --> 00:12:02,640 Doable and they procrastinated, a lot. 228 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,200 And, in fact, that's why we're here doing this, doing this because 229 00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:11,605 it helps us both read academic articles together, um, as well. 230 00:12:12,300 --> 00:12:12,480 Yeah. 231 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,580 And yeah, I think there's a lot that we can take out from 232 00:12:17,580 --> 00:12:18,600 this being like, oh yeah, okay. 233 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,450 So procrastination isn't a failure of time management. 234 00:12:21,450 --> 00:12:24,750 It's a failure of other attentional difficulties. 235 00:12:24,780 --> 00:12:28,920 And if that's the case, let's not focus on time management. 236 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:33,330 Let's focus on things I can do to amp up my motivation. 237 00:12:33,330 --> 00:12:34,950 Amp up my thing. 238 00:12:35,790 --> 00:12:37,800 Tiny amounts of money probably won't do it, but, 239 00:12:39,870 --> 00:12:42,355 having, rewards are often great for ADHD, 240 00:12:42,855 --> 00:12:43,965 Yeah, 100%. 241 00:12:43,965 --> 00:12:47,955 So they found that, yeah, the present data confirmed previous findings of 242 00:12:48,015 --> 00:12:53,655 executive dysfunctioning and academic procrastination, and they were observed at 243 00:12:53,655 --> 00:12:57,915 the neural and behavioral level, even when the task was relatively easy, but they 244 00:12:57,945 --> 00:13:02,835 became more pronounced behaviorally when the working memory load increased, which 245 00:13:02,835 --> 00:13:05,235 is, something we talk about all the time. 246 00:13:05,475 --> 00:13:08,330 That idea of memory and, you know, they had. 247 00:13:09,930 --> 00:13:11,070 it really did. 248 00:13:11,190 --> 00:13:12,650 This is the bit where they talked about ADHD. 249 00:13:12,780 --> 00:13:15,900 They talked about executive and attentional deficits were observed, 250 00:13:16,350 --> 00:13:21,390 are observed in ADHD and suggested to be related to cortical arri 251 00:13:21,420 --> 00:13:26,880 arousal caused by decreased tonic activity of the noradrenergic system. 252 00:13:27,150 --> 00:13:31,350 So they really were going in on saying like, okay, this is probably 253 00:13:31,350 --> 00:13:34,230 related to ADHD, but they really only brought that in at the end.