Tiffany(00:02):
Okay, folks, I'm here with Debbie, and we were already just getting to talking and I'm like, we gotta stop . This is gonna be too fun. . Get ready folks. Okay. Debbie, start by telling folks a little bit, bit about you and your practice as it now stands.
Debbie(00:17):
Okay. well, so my practice has evolved over the years, but I'm in my eighth year of private practice now. I work with mothers on both ends of the motherhood journey. So I have mothers who are parenting young children and moms who are empty nesters. Right. And so, but the, the theme or the, the challenge that, that runs across my clients is that we all succumb to these societal norms of perfectionism and struggled with identity. Like, who am I now that I'm a mom? Or who am I now that my kids are launched or going off? And the anxiety that comes with that. So I, I specialize in working with anxiety anxious moms, but really like wanting to rebel against the idea that moms are supposed to be these like, perfect, nurturing kind, always wonderful in service to other people, like in favor of creating a norm of human motherhood. Mm-Hmm. Like being human in our mothering, which means we lose our. We mess up all the time. And like kind of trying to normalize that as people navigate the journey on both sides of it. But that's, that's where my practice stance, I mean, all of my clients essentially are pretty much in one stage of motherhood or another for the most part. Yeah.
Tiffany(01:43):
This is gonna be already, I could tell a very fun episode. Yeah. Because one of these things you're describing apply to therapist. Totally. And our, and also so many of our therapists are moms at the beginning of it, so this is gonna be great.
Debbie(01:55):
I love that. Yeah. Well,
Tiffany(01:56):
So we're gonna talk about specifically in theory, if we could stay on track, which I will not, I'm already gonna tell you, we're gonna be talking about you getting off insurance. Yep. And also how this increased your clinical skill, like how you changed as a therapist by virtue of going through this journey on your own. Sound good?
Debbie(02:12):
Sounds great. Yep.
Tiffany(02:14):
So we were just looking at this right before you started. You started Lim in August of 2022. So like tail end of the pandemic. Take us back to even like three months just before that. What was going on in your practice? What was going on in your daily life back in those?
Debbie(02:32):
Well, we were, I guess we were kind of, we were still in the pandemic, but I was, I had been in panic, so when Covid hit, I got really, I like panicked about what was gonna happen to my practice and my business. And I just, there was so much uncertainty, right? So I spent all this time during the early days of Covid, I thought, oh, I'm gonna create an online program and I'm gonna do this. And like, I really felt like I had to change my business because I wasn't making enough money at the time. And I thought, okay, I need to do something different. And so when I started limb and I started to really do the work, I realized like, wait a second. I, I don't actually need to do something different. I need to, I mean, I don't need to do something different.
Debbie(03:26):
I need to do something different. You know what I mean? Like in terms of make my practice work for me and what I need. And so I was kind of in panic mode, and then I shifted to doing this work around my fee. And, but more importantly, it was, it was way more about what I, my value and my worth and how I, how I viewed it in relation to the work. So where I think my clinical skill increased over time was in my focus, on my own growth, my own personal growth, so that I could show up Mm. Differently in the work, right? I mean, like, yeah, of course it gives me time and resources to do additional clinical training, but I don't feel like that's where my clinical skill increased as much as being able to do my own work and focus on what I needed to focus on to bring my practice up to that level of being able to charge.
Tiffany(04:29):
This is so interesting. So you're panicking during, this has been a theme coming up actually, both in the people I'm interviewing for the money sessions, but also kind of just around generally is this idea of therapists who have a private practice that's not working. Yeah. And instead of actually making that private practice work, raising fees, no cancellation policies, weekly sessions, they like go to like, oh, the solution is to start a whole nother business as if that's the solution. Which it sounds like you were kind of in that space. I,
Debbie(04:57):
I was so in that space and I had done so much work, and then I just, I started to like, feel this like resistance to it. And I think it came when it came to like all the marketing of like, what this was gonna look like to launch this thing. And I, I finally like, it took me a while, but I finally was like, I don't wanna do this. Like, I don't want to do this. What the hell am I doing? Like, I don't even wanna do this. So that's when, and I've been following you for a long time. I mean, I knew, I knew the work you were doing, and I was like, okay, I need to put my investment here because it was clear that I, there was different work I needed to be doing. Mm.
Tiffany(05:40):
What was, so when you were on insurance panels Yeah. In the early days, how many clients were you seeing a week? What, how were you showing up as a therapist? What kind of was your clinical work looking like in those days?
Debbie(05:53):
I mean, what I would say is like, I, I always had decided that I wanted this work. Well, because primarily I was a mom, right? Oh. So there was always this guise of like, my job is to be the mom in my family and take care of my family. Just, you know, like, I gotta be there for everybody. And so my work was always like the fun money. Like what I brought in was like, my husband was the provider, and I was like, oh, if we wanna take a little trip, there's, there's Debbie's work money. Like, I never really viewed it in the same way as my husband. And he works in private industry. He always made, he had way, he has way less education than I do, and he is always made double, triple what I made. And it was like, my job was just kind of like, I mean, I don't wanna say it's hobby, but it was kind of like just on the side.
Debbie(06:45):
And so I always said that I was gonna work three days a week. And I did see about the same number of clients that I see now. The difference was though, that I just didn't, I, I, like, I wasn't showing up for myself, so I didn't have like the resources or the ability to like really care for my own health so that I couldn't quite show up because I wasn't showing up for myself. So, like, I had, I had back issues and I had had back surgeries, and I had gained a bunch of weight and I wasn't exercising. And I, I just couldn't care for myself. And so was I doing OPA work? I was doing okay work, but I, my clients weren't my ideal clients. Mm-Hmm . So I was kind of being a generalist of sorts. I, I would take on most people who showed up because I felt like, oh my gosh, there's not gonna be someone else that's gonna come if I don't take this person.
Debbie(07:51):
So I wasn't being discriminatory. So I had these clients who like, I needed to not be seeing, but I kept seeing them, you know, because I felt like, well, I've gotta do it. And I didn't wanna market. So that was part of my insurance thing. I was like, well, it's a great referral source. It'll just roll in and I won't have to do the work to market, you know? And it was, it just wasn't working. I wasn't my best. I wasn't healthy. The clients that I was working with, they weren't the ones I do my best work with. Mm-Hmm. And so, yeah. I mean, that's what it looked like. That was what it looked like.
Tiffany(08:32):
So you, you were in the position where your husband was bringing in good money, so you didn't really have to be bringing in money. You were seeing people three days a week on insurance. You were momming. How old were your kids at the time?
Debbie(08:44):
Well, they're, they're 17 and 19 now. So they were like, what, 14, 16, 13, 15, something like that. Had
Tiffany(08:53):
Some early teenagers,
Debbie(08:54):
Early teens, and they needed me for sure. I mean, they're, they need a lot.
Tiffany(09:00):
So so many therapists are listening right now. They might be in that position of like, I'm working three days. I don't, the money is good. It's fine. I can show up in the, like, I can be a mom. You are saying, you realize like, oh, like this back pain. I'm not really taking care of my health. The clients are not ideal. I'm kind of just working with everyone. I'm not being intentional about who I'm working with. So many therapists just live in that space for months or years or decades. Do you know what allowed you to pop out into like, actually this doesn't work for me. Why did that happen?
Debbie(09:36):
Well, so prior to that, prior to that time, I was diagnosed with an incurable cancer that I live with. It's a livable thing, really Rare blood cancer. And that was a really scary time in my life. But this was kind of like that wake up call of like, wait a second. I have, I have control of this, right? I need to do what all the things I can do. This is a part of my life I can't control, right? Like, the fact that I have this thing, but there's so many other parts of my life that I have control over, and here I am just
Tiffany(10:17):
Not
Debbie(10:17):
Right. Like, I was just kind of just status quo, right? And it was, it was okay, but it wasn't really okay mm-hmm . And it was starting to show up in all the parts of my life, you know? Mm-Hmm . And so a lot of the work was like, just realize, like, it was that like Covid was this thing that like, brought us all into this space of unknowing. Hmm. Like, none of us knew what was gonna happen. And it kind of like, I feel like when you live with this like a, some kind of a diagnosis like that, you're kind of in that space of like, it was like, it was Yolo, right? Like, you only live once. I gotta live because who knows what this thing is gonna do. And I wasn't really living. And Covid brought us all into that space. I feel like it was kind of this universal shared experience, but for me it was like, like an extra wake up call of like, wait a second. I wanna live. Like, when I started li it was like my do have and be was like, I wanna plan a trip to Thailand and I wanna travel and I wanna live, and I wanna do the things. And like we did, we went, I was
Tiffany(11:30):
Gonna say
Debbie(11:31):
Yes, we did it. Wow. We met last year. It was transformational. And I did that. Yes. You
Tiffany(11:38):
Know, you did that
Debbie(11:39):
With this work. And now I make almost as much as my husband does what I do,
Tiffany(11:45):
Flash forward. Holy smokes. Yeah, I know that
Debbie(11:49):
I do.
Tiffany(11:50):
Wow. And you work three days a week.
Debbie(11:53):
I work three days a week.
Tiffany(11:55):
Now he's like, wait a minute, I this. Yeah. Like,
Debbie(11:57):
Wait second. I was like. Right.
Tiffany(12:00):
Wow.
Debbie(12:01):
. Yeah.
Tiffany(12:02):
That's wild. Yeah.
Debbie(12:03):
Yeah.
Tiffany(12:04):
So, okay, so take us, so taking us back, I don't even know if this question applies, but maybe it does. When you were like, you only live once, I gotta do this. I was trying to do this online business thing, that's not really the, that's not for me. Mm-Hmm. I'm gonna join Lim. But all your, all your clients had been on insurance. That was how you, that, that did your marketing. So, you know, you could kind of, we can justify it. Like, well, it makes sense to be on insurance 'cause that's marketing and I make the choice. What scared you about like, I'm getting off insurance. I'm gonna be charging cash pay.
Debbie(12:34):
Oh my gosh. I thought I was gonna lose all my clients. Oh,
Debbie(12:37):
I thought all my clients were gonna be like, you're only worth my $20 copay. So if I have to pay more than $20, like I'm out. You know? That was terrifying because I, you know, I had like built a practice. I had, I had as many clients as I needed, or, you know, needed quote unquote. And that was a terrifying thought of like, like reinforcing the, what I felt about myself. Yes. Which was, you're not worth more than my $20 copay or gosh, you know the work we do, it's, it's worth $20, but it's not worth $210 or Right. Yes. So that absolutely terrified me. I came from, before I started my practice, I worked in a, a medical office that had like multiple providers and multiple offices. I did, I did behavioral health, but I was a intern at the time.
Debbie(13:37):
I was an associate. And my worth was determined by whether or not I, they could bill insurance for my services. Hmm. And they couldn't at the time 'cause I was an intern, so I was constantly feeling devalued. I got paid way less than the licensed provider that I did. I supported more physicians. I did great work. I know that now. But I came from that world of like, you're not valuable unless you can bill insurance. And that's what's important. And so I was terrified. I was absolutely terrified that my clients would confirm what I felt or the story I told myself about my value when it came to that. Terrifying. Terrifying.
Tiffany(14:28):
This is so important. I, you know, it's so easy to think it's about the money. If I get off insurance, all my clients will leave and I won't have enough money to make it. You are allowing us to see underneath like the curtain and see the reality, which is that if all your clients left, it would be a little stressful financially, but you would be okay as a family. Yeah. Which allows us to see that the real fear, and I think this is actually true for people who say it's about the money or even think it's about the money, the real fear is facing the reality that we might have built a caseload of people who don't actually value the work we do, and that they're not actually willing to make any sacrifice or pay for it. Which is way more devastating, I think, than losing some income.
Debbie(15:11):
Totally. Absolutely. And at the time, you know, my family wasn't reliant on my income to survive. It is now I've built, you know, it is now. So it's, it feels, but I don't have that same fear now, you know? But yeah, at the time I was like, oh gosh, they're gonna really, they're gonna, they're gonna confirm what I already feel, which is, I wonder, I wonder, do they think I'm $210 valuable or am I just another whatever, you know, person to talk to and it's worth $20 to them, but not more. Yeah.
Tiffany(15:48):
Can you say a little bit of this, you know, I know this was some time ago, but when you started having those conversations, I'm getting off insurance, I'm gonna be charging two 10. Can you say something about what that process was like for you?
Debbie(16:00):
Yeah. so li was there, I, and I wish I could credit the person who said this, so who, whoever this is, I, I don't remember. But if, if you're out there, I wanna say thank you. But one of the things that really has resonated with me, and it really helped having the conversations was the idea that like, we can hold multiple values. So like, I can value, like, hey, I need to make money and take care of my family and run this business. And, and that means I need to charge $210 a session. I can also value, like, I think everyone should have access to great mental health care and all those things. Like I can hold those two values together, but sometimes I can't do them both at the same time. Like, I can't hold them at the same time. So that was how I framed it to my clients.
Debbie(16:52):
I was like, Hey, I believe this is really important and this is also important, but right now, the way that our insurance system is set up and our world is set up, like I can't do both of those at the same time. So I said, I have to choose, you know, my business, my family, my clinical work. Right? Like providing you the best service and I have to get off insurance panels and charge private pay. That doesn't mean that I'm, it's not important to me for people to have access and that I wouldn't be open in the future, you know, to, to finding a way to make that happen together. If, if systemic change and all those things go Yeah. But that was so, like, that resonated so deeply for me. Yeah. And I think my client, I mean, like, people get that yes, people get that. And especially like, I, you know, I work with moms, like, they get, like, you've gotta prioritize what makes it work for you, you and your family and your life. Right. It has to fit. And I also have to take care of myself. Like I need to exercise and, and do all the things that I need to do for my body so that I can show up Yeah. And be there for them. And I wasn't able to do that before.
Tiffany(18:10):
I have no doubt that you being willing to take that risk, even though it was terrifying. And even to face the reality of like, literally these people might not think the work is worth 20, but no matter what they think I'm gonna step into a PLA is worth where it's worth 210. That allows you to show up in front of those moms who need that same, they also are struggling with that stuff. And you can now be the person who's going first. And I'm sure they could feel it.
Debbie(18:36):
Absolutely. I think it, I think it completely elevated the work with those people. And yes, a couple people had to go like they did. And that's okay. Like, I don't have the, I think the other big, big thing was like, I don't have to be for everybody. I only have to be for, you know, however many clients, you know, 25, 30 total clients in the whole state of Oregon and California, 20, 20 to 30 people. That's all. I don't have to be for everybody. And, and that's okay. And it doesn't, and then I'll be happy to send you to somebody who you might be for. Yeah. You know, sometimes people don't want therapists with that drop F bombs and, you know, have tattoos and like, but I'm unapologetic about that. That's what I am. And if I'm not a fit for you, that's okay. Like, but really coming into that like, Hey, I, I don't have to be for everybody. That's totally fine with me. But it was hard at first. It was, it was not easy at first. For sure.
Tiffany(19:38):
It's helpful to hear that. 'cause I think therapists listening now are like, it's, I try to reinforce this, this is why we have this whole show where people are telling their whole story. But therapists, you all in the audience can listen sometimes and be like, well, that was easy for Debbie, but it will never work for me because Right. But it was not easy for you. And it No, it didn't just work like magic.
Debbie(19:58):
No, and it's still not easy. Like, there are still times where I'm, I like kind of go into that default mode of like, oh, I ha I have a little bit of a slow week, or Oh, a lot of, you know, clients are rescheduling this week, and Oh God, what does that mean? And you know, like they, I still have to like, bring myself back from the ledge, you know, and remind myself like where, you know, the journey, it's not easy ever. I don't think it's ever easy.
Tiffany(20:25):
It's interesting to think about like the end game and there's no end game, but there's like, when therapists, and we're gonna get to marketing in a second, but I, I hear from a lot of therapists who are like, it's so hard to market a premium fee practice. And like, what if it doesn't work? And I'm like, for you, it's been like two-ish years a little over two and you're saying like, oh, it's still hard. I have slow weeks and maybe people aren't gonna come. Which you have those fears back in 2022, but now you're making so much money that you're like, almost Ill par with you. So it's like you making the, you you went, you still have the same feelings, but the reality of what you've built by virtue of being consistent and going for it no matter what, you're in such a different financial reality.
Debbie(21:10):
Totally. Well, and now, like, I know we had a little DM about it, but like, I'm working on my you revenue. Right? Like, when tax time comes and then I'm like, right. Like I made, so I made so much more money that I got hosed on taxes. And then I'm like, okay, now I've gotta level up again. Yes. Because I have to figure out like, what, what it looks like now. Right? So now I'm thinking about like, okay, now I need to probably raise my fees again. And, but I, I literally, you know, don't I have two clients on my like philanthropic sliding scale, which is 180 5.
Tiffany(21:52):
Oh, it's fabulous.
Debbie(21:53):
Yeah. Right. And that's like, that's my gift. Yeah.
Debbie(21:59):
And it feels really good though. It feels really good to finally be in this place of like, okay, like the work we do is important. Yeah. And like when we're on insurance panels or like, I think what I realized right, like was that I wasn't working for myself. Hmm. I wasn't the one, like the insurance company was the one that was determining my ceiling. Yes. It wasn't me and I thought I was working for myself, but was I really like, no. When they're sending me letters saying you bill more often for this code than most people bill, and like all this crap that went along with that. It's like, I'm not, I actually wasn't working for myself and I really wanted the freedom of actually working for myself.
Tiffany(22:46):
How didn't feel Go, go ahead.
Debbie(22:47):
Yeah. I mean, I just, coming from like the medical world where, you know, I couldn't wear jeans and I, my tattoos couldn't show and, you know, I had to be buttoned up and, you know, I was like, I, I don't want any of that. I wanna make the rules Yes. Unapologetically. Like, and what am I showing my clients Right. About societal expectations and norms and guilt and all this mom guilt. Like how, how am I doing them a service if I am in this place?
Tiffany(23:21):
A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Even the, even the dread, I'm feeling like getting a letter saying, Hey, you bill more like the subtle you, like the subtle authoritarianism of like the parent who's saying, you're doing it wrong, we're passively saying it. Like, what are you
Debbie(23:34):
Talking about? Yeah. And then you feel like, oh my God, I gotta change how I'm doing it or what code I'm billing, or am I, am I doing it wrong or am I not being good? Or like, are they gonna take it all back? Like, I, I can't stand that that,
Tiffany(23:47):
And they might take it all back. Might might. Yeah.
Debbie(23:50):
It's a terrible place to live in.
Tiffany(23:53):
Right.
Debbie(23:53):
It's terrible. I'm so glad to be, and it took me about a year to get off because we're in contract and, you know, I had to wait till my contracts expired because sometimes if you terminate before it, it ends up being longer than like the actual, just waiting it out. So it took me about, like, when I made the decision, it was about a year before it was actually off. So I think I finally got off all the panels. I think this will be two years, may. Wow. It took a long time to finally get there.
Tiffany(24:30):
It makes me think it's wild when, when people are thinking like, oh, should I work in limbs? Should I do that process? And sometimes times they're like, I'll wait till the fall, I'll wait till whatever. And this point of like, you wait until the fall might be another year out. If you're on a trip, you better take action now because you don't totally, every day you wait could be another year that you're trapped. And once you are ready to get off and then you can't get off, it's like the worst.
Debbie(24:53):
So bad
Tiffany(24:54):
Feeling.
Debbie(24:55):
Yes. Yes. I literally waited a year, I think, because I, you know, when I signed the contract, I just thought that's what you do. Like, oh, I became licensed. I get on insurance panels, that's what we do. Right. And so I was locked in. Yeah. You get locked in, I think like three years or some. Like, I mean, you're just locked. So Yeah. It wasn't even just the decision. It was like, you make the decision and then you have to wait, or there's this whole process that you have to go through. It's terrible.
Tiffany(25:27):
What one of the things happening, this is 2025 when we're recording this. One of the things that I'm hearing probably for the past six months, and I, you know, I think we always look for reason therapists or any, any, anybody in business looks for reasons to stay safe and not come up against a growing edge. So the story these days is nobody is gonna pay cash for a therapist when they can use their insurance, especially in this crazy political time or economic time. Hmm. How are you marketing these days? What's working for you?
Debbie(25:59):
That's a, i I, that's a really interesting question. I'm kind of old school marketing, like old school, like networking. I have some co I have colleague friends that we refer to each other. I've sent letters to the women's health clinic to their social worker. Like, Hey, I'm here and I specialize and I've got extra. I specialize in peri perinatal mental health and postpartum anxiety. And I've gotten referrals that way. I, I feel a little bit averse in some ways to social media. So I outsource that. Actually, yes, I hired someone to do my social media because I really recognize that. Like, I know that that's, you know, some people, like, like my people live on TikTok, like young moms, right? They live on TikTok and Instagram, and so, you know, I, I want to be there, but like for me, that's not my expertise.
Debbie(27:00):
And so I, I've outsourced that to someone to help me with my social media, but like, really, like TI got a lot of client referrals. So a lot of, most of my referrals come from my clients, which is awesome. Right. And they're out there saying like, Hey, this is worth it. It's worth it. And you know, they can still use their insurance. It's not that they can't, but it's just they have to do it. Yes. You know? Yes. And I always let people know, like I'm a fan, like, Hey, if you have insurance and you pay for it, like, I want you to get your money back. And so I give super bills and I make that a regular part of my practice. And, you know, clients may use it or may not. Yeah. and that's up to them. But yeah, my marketing is mostly organic and I, I really have not, I have been a full practice. I have not struggled, like, knock on wood, I mean, I still panic, but like, knock on something. No struggles so far. So far.
Tiffany(28:09):
I think you're good. So what, what sometimes when I ask therapists this and they, and they have like the response you have, which is like, I'm not really, it seems a little invisible, like it's just magically happening. But I actually wanna lay out what I've heard you say in this episode so that therapists listening can understand what you're actually doing marketing wise. First you have a very specific niche, which is in limb. We talk about r to the third, which is you need clients who are resourced, so they have the money to pay. So these, you're not, you're not going to like the foster care, transitional housing, youth authority to find clients. You're like, I'm finding people who are women probably in a dual income household who have kids. So they have the money to have kids and they, you know, or they're empty nesters.
Tiffany(28:52):
So they have good, you're aware of who your people are. The second thing is they are ready. And I think about that in terms of a burning pain. Like moms who just had a kid are like, if they're having anxiety, they're like, I need help now. Tell me who to go to. And I'm just gonna go. They're ready. They're not like, they don't mind has changed. They're not like, I'm just going along and I can keep going along. They, they cannot go along. So they're ready to pay someone. That's right. And then third is they're recognized. So like, you're not saying, you know, I do e mdr r for, you know, tra trans trauma over the years, like speaking language. And no one, no one understands. You're saying, I help moms who just had a baby and they're in a place of like, who, who the am I now?
Tiffany(29:28):
Or their kids just left and they're like, who the am I now? Like those women, they can see themselves in your story. So you, first of all, I wanna be clear for folks listening, that's a marketing first of all, is having a niche that's resourced, ready and recognized. That's number one. I love that. And number two, you did the work yourself. You were that mom who was like, who am I, I'm serving everyone else. And you took the risk to go. So like, you even investing in like, I'm gonna do this thing and figure it out, even though I'm terrified is a, is a way to market. 'cause People feel it. You can't be talking the talk and not walking the walk. So like even being that person. Totally.
Debbie(30:01):
Yes.
Tiffany(30:01):
I'll say finally taking all that stuff into just building relationships with human beings like that all, if you've done those other two things, clear, niche, resource, ready and recognized, done the work yourself. You can't be like drowning on 700 insurance panels and burnt out, overwhelmed, and then go out and market because no, nobody's gonna believe you because you're lying to yourself and everyone like, yeah. You
Debbie(30:22):
Can't be like, mom guilt. And then be like a total guilty disaster. Right? Yeah.
Tiffany(30:27):
No time to work out. No time for yourself bending over, it's not gonna work. So if you're in integrity, you have a niche who's ready, then you go out and just be, go out in the world and you've already like, just talk to humans and they're gonna recognize and feel the kind of work you do. That's actually a huge, that's huge. .
Debbie(30:43):
Yeah, totally. And you know, and just like how we've talked about, like, I, you know, I don't have this whole like, mom thing totally figured out and dialed, right? Like, I don't have this, I mean, like, I've done so much work and I still, like, I still am not like, I am not sitting here saying I've got it all figured out. Right. Like, and that's the first thing I tell my clients. Like, I'm in the trenches with you. I have not got this all figured out, but what I can say is like, you know, like, I up too. Or like, I have those moments and I think humanness right. Is is part of it, but yeah, totally. Absolutely. Like it is part of what I have to do to like be good at who I work with Yeah. For who I work with. Yeah, for sure.
Tiffany(31:34):
That's really it, like putting your money where your mouth is.
Debbie(31:37):
That's right. . Yeah. Yeah. Like, I think my best work happens through my experience. Mm-Hmm . Right? Mm-Hmm
Tiffany(31:44):
.
Debbie(31:45):
Mm-Hmm . But like, if I, like, that's where I've focused just this last year Right. Has been just on my own growth and development as a human. Yes. And how I show up. And it was funny, my son and I were having a conversation last night and he was like, well, you can be intimidating. He said to me, and I said, well, why? And he says, well, and you're tall and you, you have gray hair and you just, you show your tattoos and you just don't give a what people think. And I was like, thank you. Thank you, . I've worked so hard to not give a about what other people think. Like yes. Wow. So glad you see that. Right. Like, I mean, I think he was kind of, I don't think he was insulting me, but like, he was like, you just, you are just who you are and you just don't care. And I was like, what's the nicest thing you, you could ever ? Like that's the nicest thing ever to come out of your mouth because that has, that has been a journey.
Tiffany(32:47):
Mm. That's like a huge proud mom. If my kids ever say that to me, I'm like, like, so hard to get there. It's like, you
Debbie(32:54):
Daff. And I'm like, yes,
Tiffany(32:55):
Thank you. Awesome.
Debbie(32:58):
I'm so glad you see that because it's been a lot of work. And
Tiffany(33:01):
What a thing to model to him. What a thing to model for him to have a mom who, who shows up in the world this way.
Debbie(33:07):
The Yeah. Like, I want, I want to not, I want to just know that I'm for who I'm for and I'm not for who. I'm not for like, I don't have to be. I think that was like, the thing is like, I don't need everybody to pay my fee and I actually don't need everyone to feel like I'm worth that. Yeah. I only need the people who I'm for to, to feel the value in it. Yes.
Tiffany(33:29):
That's right. There was something, what did you say? Oh yeah. We've talked, this has been woven throughout the conversation, but, but I would love to hear you just speak specifically on your identity. You said as a mom and wife mm-hmm . And you said you always felt before like your income was the fun money and you'd never make as much as your husband. And your role was to be for my family and in service to everyone. And then you said, that by the way, , can you say something about your, when did you start waking up to, oh, this is how I'm operating in the world? How did you come to recognize this is how you're operating and start to shift it?
Debbie(34:07):
Yeah. I mean, I think it was just in that realization of there was like a moment in my life, like literally a moment where I was myself. Like I was in a body that wasn't comfortable. I wasn't, I just wasn't, I just didn't recognize who I was at all. And it was literally like, I just, it was a moment of vulnerability that I can't quite explain that I just realized I had put everything and everybody before me, and it was so vulnerable to feel like I just couldn't even like show. Like, it was literally, I was in, I was on a family vacation. I've always been kind of a strong, like a physically strong person. We were in this almost like lake trip boating trip. And I, I had, my body was such that I couldn't even get myself, pull myself up out of the water.
Debbie(35:06):
And I was like a collegiate swimmer. Okay. So like, this was like, I was like, oh my gosh. Like, I've had times in my life where I didn't feel like myself, but I never, I never felt this vulnerability of like, I couldn't take care of myself or, or something. And it was like literally I had this moment of like, oh, this is not, I, I never wanna feel this sense again. And it was that moment that I was like, this is done. Like, I have to, like, it has to be about me. Like, I had all the health stuff that had happened and I was still kind of just going along and I realized like, I'm not going to be good for anybody, let alone myself. And so, I swear to you, we, the day we got back from that trip, it was like, this is it.
Debbie(35:58):
I'm not doing this anymore. I really shifted. That was a huge shift for me. And I lost like 40 pounds. I've, you know, I have a regular exercise practice I go on, like, I'm about to go on a retreat, a self, like a wellness retreat just by myself, for myself. And am I gonna miss some baseball games? Yep. So, so be it. I'm even gonna miss the playoffs. Okay. You know what I mean? It's like I have to, and you know, I think my, I I think my kids see that and I think it's okay. It's good for them to see that. Like, I'm a person too, and I'm still great. Like, I prepare meals for my family. I meal prep for my kid. I show up to most of the things. Like I do all that, but they know that like, sometimes I'm gonna be late to a game because I'm taking care of my health, or sometimes I'm gonna miss some stuff because I'm gonna go take care of what I need to take care of so that I can show up. Because it's about like how we wanna show up in the world. And I just like didn't even recognize that person.
Tiffany(37:16):
I appreciate it. Thank you for giving like, the very specific moment in time I think we can all relate to. Well, if we've had a moment like, oh, that was the moment, that was the moment when you had an internal shift. Mm-Hmm
Debbie(37:27):
.
Tiffany(37:28):
You also making me realize inspiring me with this idea of, you know, I do the things, I make the dinner, I meal prep, I go to the games. That's a mo I mean, most moms are in the position to do that. What a privilege. Most of the moms who are listening to the show, but you're saying something so much deeper, which is I'm modeling taking care of myself by doing it, which is actually something many kids don't get to see from a mom. Daughters and sons don't get to see a mom who's saying, I'll do those things, but even more than that, I'm gonna take care of myself. And that gives them permission to take care of themselves, which is, we we're kind of generationally, especially women, people who are Right. Generationally martyring ourselves. And what a gift to show your kids. Like, this is actually not what we're gonna do, . This is not what we're about.
Debbie(38:16):
Yeah. I mean, I think we're raised as women, we're taught, like our value is in how we serve everybody else. And like, I know, like some of my clients' biggest fears is that their kids are gonna be people pleasers. Right? Yes. And, and but where does that come from? Right? It comes from all the messaging Yes. That we get. And perfectionism, like the anxiety and the perfectionism are interwoven. And, you know, I'm constantly working with clients to, to a like model it, but also like give, let them give themselves permission to take care of themselves or to, to, like I always say, motherhood changes you, but it doesn't erase you. Yeah. It doesn't erase who you are. And like, you get to be that person. Right. And yeah. Are you changed? Do things change? Absolutely. You know, you're a mom. Yes. But it doesn't erase you.
Debbie(39:10):
Yeah. And so, yeah, I'm constantly, and like, you know, we think about being a mom, what does that mean? Oh, we're, we're supposed to be selfless and nurturing and warm and loving and kind. And it's like, yeah. If you were in my house a couple days ago, you would've seen me like losing my absolute. Right. Because this kid won't pick up his crap or whatever. Like we, we have to be human. Yeah. You know? And I, I don't know, like yeah, I, that moment where I just didn't even recognize myself. I mean, that was, that was three, was that three, four years ago? Summer. So that would've put me right when I was right at that time, when I was right in the midst of, I think I had, it was maybe I joined Lynn like that August.
Tiffany(39:58):
Wow. Yep.
Debbie(39:59):
It was like, this is not working for me anymore.
Tiffany(40:04):
Interesting.
Debbie(40:05):
Yeah.
Tiffany(40:08):
I think you've given people so much wisdom. The listeners are having so many like, pop pop. I am. I'm sure they're too. What would you say, so let's, let's think about someone in your position let's say a mom who is not the primary breadwinner, who's, let's say she's married to a man. He makes the money and she's like, there is a way she's not really taking her practice seriously. And, and also symbolically, as we've heard from you, honestly, maybe she started to recognize she's not taking her life, her life seriously either. And she's like, what if it doesn't work? What if I try to get off and I find out my clients don't pay? Like she's on the cusp. What would you say to her one to three pieces of either like straightforward advice or even a mindset shift you could offer to help her take the next leap, get into a different paradigm?
Debbie(40:59):
Gosh, that's, that's a good one. I think like, I think the thing is like mediocrity or like this idea that like, we should just go with what's comfy. Right? I think that doesn't serve us like we have to be, you have to be great in the ways that inspire you, if that makes sense. And like, if, if you're, you know, where I was at, right? Like, that's not, like, I think about like our wellbeing being about being like how we wanna be. And I think if anyone were to look at themselves in that position, right? I think we realized just as I did that, like that's most likely not how you wanna be, not how you wanna show up for yourself, but, and, and for your family. Like being kind of in that in-between space or that kind of space of, of devaluing what you're doing or having it be kind of secondary, you know, that that sends a message to the very people who we all want to be better than us even. Right?
Tiffany(42:23):
Yes.
Debbie(42:24):
Yes. And so, like, you don't wanna be just doing okay or just have the fun money or the, the thing that could, like, you could put aside or go by the wayside. Like what you do is too important for that. You know, like, like we have the ability to model, but also like really support people in, in life changing transformation. And that's not just for funes.
Tiffany(42:57):
Mm-Hmm . Mm-Hmm . I love this. I hear you.
Debbie(43:00):
I dunno if that answered your question.
Tiffany(43:01):
It absolutely does. Like what you do matters. And there's something like, oh, this money could take it or leave it. We don't really need it. It's just a hobby. I'm not taking it seriously. You are also saying something about the work of women. You're saying something about the work of moms. You're saying something about the work of our field. If you're done all this work and just treat it like a hobby, you're, you're, you're messaging in some way. You're messaging. It's not really important. I'm not really important. This doesn't really matter, which is like holy.
Debbie(43:26):
Yeah. And as moms, I think what we want more than anything is to show our children empowerment. Like, we want our children to feel empowered, but if they're not seeing that,
Tiffany(43:39):
Hmm.
Debbie(43:40):
And I don't, we don't do it on purpose. Right.
Tiffany(43:43):
We're not bad. This is not, we're not saying you're bad listener if you're in there. We there too. We've been in there too. We've been there. No, I mean,
Debbie(43:48):
This is what we're fed. Yes. That's right. It's hard to be counterculture, you know that the work you do is counterculture, but it's necessary. Like especially right now in the world as women. That's
Tiffany(44:00):
Right.
Debbie(44:01):
We have, I
Tiffany(44:02):
Love that. That's like the opposite of like, oh, I can't make these changes in a time like this. You're like, this is the time. You never make these
Debbie(44:08):
Changes. now more than ever, like we have to be counterculture right now. Women are like under attack.
Tiffany(44:15):
Yeah. That's powerful.
Debbie(44:16):
And like, people want us to go back to this kind of submissive role, bad
Tiffany(44:23):
Wife get in the kitchen.
Debbie(44:24):
Yeah. Which is what we don't, I mean, I I some people might want that. That's okay. Yeah.
Tiffany(44:29):
Yeah.
Debbie(44:30):
But I, I sure don't,
Tiffany(44:31):
Not from me. I'm not
Debbie(44:34):
My, I want my kid to see me rocking it, not giving a he a crap about what people think and just being, being who I am. Yeah. And be feeling empowered to be who I am. And part of that is him knowing that I, I am a business person and I have a business and I'm putting my older son through college. Just, I mean, and then, you know, like, like I am, my business is supporting my son going to college and you know, my other son and his baseball and you know, our family is being supported by this business. And I want my kid to know that. 'cause I want him to choose a partner that's like that too.
Tiffany(45:13):
Yeah.
Debbie(45:14):
You know,
Tiffany(45:16):
Where, where Debbie, where can people, I know people are gonna be like, I wanna talk to this woman. Where can people find you?
Debbie(45:22):
My website, which is Debra Nichols counseling.com. Okay. And I'm also on social media at Rebel Mom therapist. Perfect. Instagram and TikTok. Rebel mom,
Tiffany(45:35):
Rebel mom therapist that you pay someone else to run. Thank you for doing that. Oh yeah. show up and do the work. Debbie, it's been a pleasure, folks. I'll say if you are a therapist, if you're a mom and you're like, oh, inspired by what Debbie's saying you feel a taste of, like, I want a little bit of that. I highly encourage you to reach out to Debbie. And Debbie does not do coffee chats, . So if you wanna consult with Debbie and pay her a good fee in order to learn something and get a little taste of what you're doing, or even, by the way, clinically, if you're in the Portland or California area and you're in one of these transitions, you're talking about motherhood, anxiety, perfectionism, and it's getting in your way. I imagine well get on Debbie's wait list. 'cause I imagine you're, you might be , but like reach out for sure.
Debbie(46:15):
Yeah. Yeah. That'd be awesome. Thank
Tiffany(46:17):
You Deb. Yeah.
Debbie(46:18):
Thank you.