1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,000
Kaytlin

2
00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:02,000
Welcome back to The Oldest Profession Podcast. I'm your host, Kaytlin Bailey. This is part two

3
00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:03,000
of a two part episode about how Australia came to decriminalize sex work. So if you have not

4
00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:04,000
yet heard episode one stop, go back. Please listen to that because otherwise this may be

5
00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:05,000
incomprehensible to you.

6
00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:06,000
The quick summation of what we covered in part one of this episode:Australia decriminalized

7
00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:07,000
sex work in pieces, starting with street-based sex work, which caused an immediate social and

8
00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:08,000
political backlash, but ultimately culminating in the decriminalization of all forms of adult

9
00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:09,000
consensual sex work in 1995, both as part of a public health initiative and also as a backlash

10
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:10,000
against the rampant and well-documented police corruption.

11
00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:11,000
[opening music]

12
00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:12,000
Elena

13
00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:13,000
In 1995, when decriminalization passed in New South Wales, it passed through both Houses of

14
00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:14,000
Parliament with a comfortable, easy majority because both parties supported it. And it was a

15
00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:15,000
huge historic political moment for the movement, even separate to the legislation itself. What it

16
00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:16,000
meant was this is possible, and we're at the beginning of something.

17
00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:17,000
It was very, very meaningful for sex workers everywhere. And for sex workers in New South

18
00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:18,000
Wales, who had been kind of toiling under that yoke of police corruption for a long time, and

19
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:19,000
street-based sex workers who had momentarily kind of thrown it off and then had been kind of in

20
00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:20,000
a bit of turmoil with local council regulations, it was a huge sigh of relief.

21
00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:21,000
And as a sex worker myself, I can tell you working there in the early 2000s, it's indescribable the

22
00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:22,000
difference of your own work style coming from a criminalized setting where I'd been working in

23
00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:23,000
Perth in Western Australia, and I'd also worked under the licensing setting in Queensland, and

24
00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:24,000
then coming to New South Wales and working under decrim, it just removes the entire stressor

25
00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:25,000
of criminalization.​

26
00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:26,000
Eury

27
00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:27,000
It's been fantastic. One, health and safety for sex workers in a decriminalized environment. It is

28
00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:28,000
a vast improvement on criminalization. These days, in New South Wales, it's not unusual If a

29
00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:29,000
sex worker is abused at work for them to go appeal to the police.

30
00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:30,000
So that there is some sort of trust and working relationship that the police are seen, in some

31
00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:31,000
cases, as being able to use the law to protect you rather than to abuse you, which was certainly

32
00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:32,000
the case, or exploit you, which was the case before decriminalization.

33
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:33,000
And in 1995, boom, it happened. But the day before it happened, I'll just tell you this little

34
00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:34,000
story—interesting—because it still impacts today. The day before it happened, the attorney

35
00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:35,000
general at that time rang Roberta up and said, “Come in, I want to talk to you.”

36
00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:36,000
So, Roberta, she always wanted to have someone, you know, and I was her kind of her offsider,

37
00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:37,000
I guess, you know? So, myself and this brothel owner, the female brothel owner who I'd worked

38
00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:38,000
for, we, the three of us, sat down and he said, “We're going to do…the announcements going to

39
00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:39,000
be made tonight. We want you guys to know, you know, that's coming out. Blah blah…” Great,

40
00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:40,000
you know, and we had a little look at it and Roberta said..he said, “what do you think?”

41
00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:41,000
And Roberta said, “You’re gonna have trouble. You're going to have trouble with the councils.

42
00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:42,000
You've given nothing to them except the responsibility that's managing a very difficult industry

43
00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:43,000
with nothing, basically.”

44
00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:44,000
To this day, councils are the biggest obstacle to sex work in New South Wales because each

45
00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:45,000
council has the power to recommend license for a brothel. And the councils regulate that

46
00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:46,000
differently. There's very few council that have really embraced the law in the way that it was

47
00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:47,000
intended.

48
00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:48,000
Kaytlin

49
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:49,000
Yeah, of course. Because not having clearly articulated rules and guidelines creates

50
00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:50,000
opportunities for local councils and governments to get in there and do what they do, which is

51
00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:51,000
try to eradicate sex work.

52
00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:52,000
Elena

53
00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:53,000
But a great problem was that there were no planning regulations put in place and there was no

54
00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:54,000
guidance for local councils as to how they should treat sex work businesses that were already

55
00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:55,000
physically there, or sex work businesses that were opening up or private sex workers who were

56
00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:56,000
working from home.

57
00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:57,000
Work health and safety regulation, local planning regulation, work health and safety regulation is

58
00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:58,000
something sex workers know a lot about. We can engage with those agencies.

59
00:00:58,000 --> 00:00:59,000
But local council is much more of a small, closed shop. It's based on power that is drawn from

60
00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:00,000
elections. It's very much personality-based, but what it endorses is the systemic punch down on

61
00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:01,000
Asian migrant sex workers, primarily, you know. Those of us who are more privileged in sex

62
00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:02,000
work to be able to work indoors can largely sidestep the pointy end of regulation. We might not

63
00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:03,000
be covered by all the protections that a local council could offer, but we're not criminalized.

64
00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:04,000
The other way it mobilized on a local council level is highly racialized because it's the targeting

65
00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:05,000
of workplaces that are run by Asian migrant families or individuals, and the workplaces, the

66
00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:06,000
massage parlors, where a predominantly Asian background migrant workers are working. And

67
00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:07,000
coupled with that, the anti-trafficking movement, which also, highly racialized, it's really the,

68
00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:08,000
migrant sex workers and Asian workplacest that the frontline of anti-sex work sentiment in

69
00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:09,000
Australia and therefore policing.

70
00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:10,000
Kaytlin

71
00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:11,000
It's always so frustrating these, like, racist and xenophobic exceptions that are carved into

72
00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:12,000
decriminalization. But for those that it did apply to, what did we learn? What does the data

73
00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:13,000
show? What impact did decriminalization have?

74
00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:14,000
Elena

75
00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:15,000
What the data shows is that the industry didn't increase or decrease. Some of the

76
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:16,000
health-seeking behaviors of sex workers changed, particularly migrant sex workers. But for sex

77
00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:17,000
workers of the more privileged set, you know, white women, housed working in establishments

78
00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:18,000
or working privately, that it wasn't the working conditions so much that changed, but willingness

79
00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:19,000
to seek justice and to be less of a kind of sitting duck for crime, I guess you would say, or

80
00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:20,000
extortion or assault or family violence, was something that culturally did shift. Attitudes in police

81
00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:21,000
shifted somewhat. It depended on who you were.

82
00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:22,000
Kaytlin

83
00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:23,000
I really appreciate that. Decriminalization helps sex workers, right? Advocate for their safety and

84
00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:24,000
health, report crimes committed against them. But what does decriminalization look like for the

85
00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:25,000
rest of the community, If you're just, like, in the neighborhood? Eurydice?

86
00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:26,000
Eury

87
00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:27,000
So I live about ten kilometers from the center of Sydney. It's a typical kind of inner city, lively,

88
00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:28,000
suburb, yeah? So on my main, on my main shopping mall, which is just little shops and, you

89
00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:29,000
know, a couple hundred meters of delicatessens, drycleaners, bars, pubs and there are brothels

90
00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:30,000
there that have been there since I was an outreach worker in 1985 on the main suburban street.

91
00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:31,000
But they're not, they're not at street level. They're about street level. So you can imagine these

92
00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:32,000
little, two-story terraces with a little staircase and a little number, because you're still not allowed

93
00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:33,000
to advertise sex work in New South Wales. So in my main street there's around I think about five

94
00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:34,000
or six brothels upstairs.

95
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:35,000
So I stood outside these brothels with my tape recorder, asking all the people, you know, mums

96
00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:36,000
and dads and kids, anyone who walked past, “Hi, did you know sex work is decriminalized?”

97
00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:37,000
Some people knew. Some people didn't. And then I would say to them, “Do you know that we're

98
00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:38,000
standing right outside a brothel like it's right there?” And I would ask, “And how long have you

99
00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:39,000
lived here? How often do you come here?” Yeah. And, so when you, you know, standing right

100
00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:40,000
just up those stairs. And nobody—I think one person out of about 20 knew that there was a

101
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:41,000
brothel up there, or one of the shop…and some of the shop owners— they weren’t perturbed by

102
00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:42,000
it.

103
00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:43,000
Yeah. And there is no action on the street there. There were no criminals sitting outside with

104
00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:44,000
tattoos all over them. There was nothing. There is nothing, you know, it's just a happy little

105
00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:45,000
shopping center.

106
00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:46,000
Kaytlin

107
00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:47,000
Yeah, no community complaints. Nothing to see here. Everything was fine.

108
00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:48,000
Eury

109
00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:49,000
And they'd been there for 13 years. So there's a lack of hysteria, I guess, around sex work that I

110
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:50,000
think has been cultivated by decriminalization.

111
00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:51,000
[break]

112
00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:52,000
Kaytlin

113
00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:53,000
So decriminalization is going well enough in the places that it's being tried that it's spreading to

114
00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:54,000
places nearby. Elena, can you tell me a little bit about how decriminalization is spreading across

115
00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:55,000
Australia?

116
00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:56,000
Elena

117
00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:57,000
So in New South Wales, the legislation passed in 1995, and it came into effect in 1996. Around

118
00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:58,000
the same time, licensing systems were being implemented in Victoria and when Queensland

119
00:01:58,000 --> 00:01:59,000
decided to do their law reform, even though their own, you know, royal commission and other

120
00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:00,000
inquiries had pointed towards decriminalization, they went what they thought was the middle

121
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:01,000
road and went down the licensing/legalization road as well.

122
00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:02,000
The licensing regimes by all measurements really failed in Australia and some researchers have

123
00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:03,000
argued that actually licensing is worse for sex workers–safety, health, mental health, financial

124
00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:04,000
security, physical security–than criminalization. In 2020, The Northern Territory government,

125
00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:05,000
after many years of campaigning and support from the unions, they also brought in

126
00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:06,000
decriminalization.

127
00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:07,000
They learned the lessons a bit from New South Wales. They brought in some clearer, not great,

128
00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:08,000
but clearer planning regulations. And they also brought in and are still working on like very

129
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:09,000
strong work, health and safety protections.

130
00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:10,000
In 2022, decriminalization went through parliament in Victoria, and it was implemented in a two

131
00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:11,000
phase process. What that allowed for was for the statewide government and the ministers

132
00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:12,000
involved to set extremely clear, unwavering regulations and for local councils in black and white

133
00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:13,000
in a way that can't be misinterpreted. And so that we believe is going to be a benefit for the way

134
00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:14,000
that decrim lasts over time without building up and giving opposition airtime within local councils

135
00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:15,000
because it's very clear what local councils responsibilities are and what local council

136
00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:16,000
responsibilities aren't in Victoria, so that's great.

137
00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:17,000
Last year the decriminalization bill passed in Queensland, and that was on the back of a seven

138
00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:18,000
year campaign. Decrim implementation began in August 2024 in Queensland.

139
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:19,000
Kaytlin

140
00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:20,000
And that brings us pretty much up to date on how decrim became the law of the land in many

141
00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:21,000
states across Australia, but now we have to talk about the law online, and I can think of no

142
00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:22,000
better person to bring in for this conversation than our next guest.

143
00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:23,000
Eliza

144
00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:24,000
So my name is Eliza Sorensen. I'm one of the founders of Assembly Four. And we founded

145
00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:25,000
Switter and Tryst.link. I come from an infrastructure and security background, but I am now

146
00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:26,000
co-CEO of Assembly Four and Tryst. And a lot of the work that I do day to day is around the

147
00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:27,000
business operations, the policy and legislative space, and trying to bridge the gap between

148
00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:28,000
technologists and sex workers.

149
00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:29,000
Kaytlin

150
00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:30,000
Very cool.

151
00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:31,000
Eliza

152
00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:32,000
And I should also say that I'm a sex worker. Victoria, which is where I am and Tryst is, we have

153
00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:33,000
been decriminalized technically for, gosh, a year or two, I think now. Prior to that, we were

154
00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:34,000
regulated. Whilst we do have this legislation to fall back, Victoria is the only one and I think

155
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,000
Queensland and maybe Northern Territory off the top of my head that have some form of

156
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:36,000
anti-discrimination protections.

157
00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:37,000
One of the biggest issues that we face is the laws are fractured within Australia. So we have

158
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:38,000
Northern Territory, Queensland, New South Wales, and Victoria, which are under some form of

159
00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:39,000
decriminalization. There are a few things that are missing, like protections for migrant workers.

160
00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:40,000
And how you advertise and where you can work.

161
00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:41,000
Kaytlin

162
00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:42,000
Even in places where decriminalization has been achieved, sex workers still have to deal with

163
00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:43,000
all of the new online regulations that threaten all of our privacy and freedom of expression.

164
00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:44,000
Eliza, can you explain what we're up against?

165
00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:45,000
Eliza

166
00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:46,000
So in Australia, we've, for the last five or so years, been fighting against something called the

167
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:47,000
Online Safety Act, which came into law in 2021. And one of the big things is it starts to place

168
00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:48,000
basic expectations on every platform, regardless of size, around how they conduct their

169
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:49,000
business on the internet. So as an individual independent sex worker, you also have to be

170
00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:50,000
aware of these laws and one of the things that has come in late last year, which the Australian

171
00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:51,000
government pushed through Parliament within 18 hours, essentially was the age verification,

172
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:52,000
anyone under 16 would be limited from social media platforms and things like this under the

173
00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:53,000
guise that, you know, trying to reduce harm.

174
00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:54,000
We know that isolating teenagers from access to information on these platforms doesn't make

175
00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:55,000
them safer, but it does make the internet unsafe for a lot of adults, separately, when you do

176
00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:56,000
require ID or an assurance mechanism, which can be quite flawed. Our government hasn't got a

177
00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:57,000
real plan, but age verification assurance, the various different mechanisms that a platform has to

178
00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:58,000
verify or assure someone's age on entering a web page can be quite expensive. If you are a

179
00:02:58,000 --> 00:02:59,000
smaller site, you can be looking at anywhere from 25% to $10 an attempt. So for larger or, like,

180
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:00,000
on the way to being larger platforms, independent platforms, that's a real hit.

181
00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:01,000
But as an independent sex worker who's running my own site, that's a lot of technical upkeep.

182
00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:02,000
That's a lot of cost. So when we kind of think about decriminalization of sex work, we have

183
00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,000
decriminalization of sex work offline but not online. We don't have the same protections or right

184
00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:04,000
to commerce as other industry does by virtue of being adult.

185
00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:05,000
Kaytlin

186
00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:06,000
Can you talk a little bit about the way that these laws, or rather the implementation of these laws

187
00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:07,000
creates new vulnerabilities for adult users?

188
00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:08,000
Eliza

189
00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:09,000
There is also, do you trust this third party vendor with this information of I'm assuring that I'm 18

190
00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:10,000
and I am visiting a porn website, I am visiting a queer sexual health website. All of these things

191
00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:11,000
are really sensitive information in the grand scheme of how we live our day to day lives. And if

192
00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:12,000
we look at the political climate, particularly in the United States at the moment, it is not safe to

193
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:13,000
be a queer person. It is not a safe place to be a woman who is looking for medical advice

194
00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:14,000
around abortions and birth control.

195
00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:15,000
So a lot of these mechanisms can also be used against us as individuals who are trying to go

196
00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:16,000
about our day to day lives in a very real way. I am queer. I grew up in rural Australia. There

197
00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:17,000
wasn't a lot of acceptance or information about queer life in general. And for me, having access

198
00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:18,000
to the internet under the age of 16 to other people who had already been through something

199
00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:19,000
similar was not only life changing but life saving.

200
00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:20,000
As a sex worker, we are inherently a marginalized community. There's also payment processing,

201
00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:21,000
which has made this much harder to actually achieve. So there's–as a sex worker giving up IDs

202
00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:22,000
is hard and not a…

203
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:23,000
KB

204
00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:24,000
It's not a small ask.

205
00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:25,000
Eliza

206
00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:26,000
It's not a small ask. That aspect that's going back to the other aspect of what happens if you

207
00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:27,000
don't have I.D.. What happens if you have a temporary I.D. with everything that's going on in the

208
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:28,000
United States? I have seen cases where people have had their IDs sent ripped up to them

209
00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:29,000
because of the executive order around gender markers.

210
00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:30,000
So the things, such as banking, have been a big problem for a lot of people like being able to

211
00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:31,000
keep bank accounts, being able to get credit card facilities or even just EFTPOS facilities,

212
00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:32,000
brothels, adult clubs, things like that.

213
00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:33,000
I would say that decriminalization does make a lot of things easier for us, but it hasn't stopped

214
00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:34,000
the or hasn't changed attitudes towards sex work just yet, in a lot of ways. I think you've still got

215
00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:35,000
a lot of peoples in policing and health care that still don't understand sex work just yet. So

216
00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:36,000
they're coming at it with very outdated ideas of sex work and the harms it potentially causes.

217
00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:37,000
Kaytlin

218
00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:38,000
Of course, you know a ton about this both as a sex worker and also as one of the founders of

219
00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:39,000
Tryst and Assembly for and of Switter. Can you tell me a little bit about how all of that

220
00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:40,000
happened?

221
00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:41,000
Eliza

222
00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:42,000
So Assembly Four was created by myself, Lola Hunt, and our other founder, Chendo.Assembly

223
00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:43,000
Four was founded with this idea that we want to build things that make sex workers’ lives easier

224
00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:44,000
and without the exorbitant price tags that are usually put on to the adult and the sex industry.

225
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:45,000
We wanted it to be a mechanism for us to also start conversations because, as we're speaking

226
00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:46,000
about in the past is technology gets used against marginalized communities first before it goes,

227
00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:47,000
you know, across the board and in order for us to actually fight these changes to get protective

228
00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:48,000
legislation put in, we do need to have allies outside of our own community.

229
00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:49,000
So we've been able to build really fantastic alliances with other organizations, particularly in the

230
00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:50,000
digital rights space around the right to privacy, the right to delete your information. The

231
00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:51,000
fundamental right to information access and personhood. And we've certainly seen with, you

232
00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:52,000
know, in Australia where we have the electronic frontiers, Australia, Digital Rights Australia, in

233
00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:53,000
the US, you've got, the Electronic Frontiers Foundation and so many others, Fight for the

234
00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:54,000
Future, who are doing some really amazing work that is human rights focused, but that has not

235
00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:55,000
just sex workers’ rights, but sexuality rights-informed information. And I think one of the

236
00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:56,000
campaigns that really do come to mind is around the right to healthcare information and abortion

237
00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:57,000
information.

238
00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:58,000
​

239
00:03:58,000 --> 00:03:59,000
We released Switter, and that came at a really pivotal time where FOSTA-SESTA was about to

240
00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:00,000
come into play and in order to support Switter which just blew up. It really…

241
00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:01,000
Kaytlin

242
00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:02,000
Tell us, for listeners that don't know, what is Switter?

243
00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:03,000
Eliza

244
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:04,000
Sorry, I think, I completely forgot about that part. So Switter was a sex worker instance hosted

245
00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:05,000
through an open source software called Mastodon. It would allow an individual to create their

246
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:06,000
own social media platform and link it to other instances. When we did decide to close Switter,

247
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:07,000
we had just over 420,000 users, and it was done in order to ensure the longevity of Tryst, as

248
00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:08,000
there were some age verification laws that were looming. You know, a lot of people lost their

249
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:09,000
ability to advertise and we hacked something together on Switter, but it wasn't fit for purpose.

250
00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:10,000
Not for, you know, I think 250,000 users at that point in time.

251
00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:11,000
Kaytlin

252
00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:12,000
Right, it's what the community needed.

253
00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:13,000
Eliza

254
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:14,000
Yeah, absolutely. And we thought that it was the best way to create something that wasn't like

255
00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:15,000
the other advertising platforms because Lola and I, in particular, would see the platforms

256
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:16,000
charging like $1,000 a month for basic access.

257
00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:17,000
Chendo and I had been working together at that point for about five or six years at various other

258
00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:18,000
startups, and it was, what happens if we treat this exactly like a tech product and we bring it

259
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:19,000
back?

260
00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:20,000
And this started to open up a lot of interesting avenues around discussion of, oh, our platform

261
00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:21,000
doesn't allow sex workers, our service provider. Like we got, kicked off Cloudflare. I think we

262
00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:22,000
were the first non-Nazis to be done. So there's a lot of these instances that kind of came up,

263
00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:23,000
which really, got the tech community also involved with some of the really damaging aspects of

264
00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:24,000
FOSTA-SESTA and how that was impacting service providers decisions.

265
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:25,000
Kaytlin

266
00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:26,000
Right, it also really, I think, helps that I feel like the tech industry is such a key ally on this and

267
00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:27,000
like the next frontier, because I mean, the history shows us that, like, the tools that are forged,

268
00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:28,000
against us are inevitably used on, like, larger and larger swaths. And I think, you know, you don't

269
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:29,000
have to…it was just looking at, like, the way that power is going, I feel like more tools for, like,

270
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:30,000
censorship and surveillance is, like, not like the best goal.

271
00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:31,000
Eliza

272
00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:32,000
No, not at all, I think it's one of those things if we look back through history, we know that the

273
00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:33,000
collection and use of personal information to strongarm or discredit people is there. AndI'm a

274
00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:34,000
firm believer in regardless of who is in power, can you trust the next person? And we shouldn't

275
00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:35,000
trust the any government I think with that information, because history shows us that it does get

276
00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:36,000
used against marginalized communities to stop political activism.

277
00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:37,000
So when we founded Tryst, we did so in order to not only financially sustain Switter, but to also

278
00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:38,000
build something fit for purpose around sex worker advertising, because we hacked something

279
00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:39,000
together and it was for Switter and it wasn't going to scale when we did this. One of the key

280
00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:40,000
aspects for us was in order to make sure that Tryst as a platform, or any sex worker platform,

281
00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:41,000
could stick around for a long time, it meant that we had to not only be loud about our activism,

282
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:42,000
but we had to be a part of our own community.

283
00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:43,000
Kaytlin

284
00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:44,000
I understand that Tryst is forced by a combination of, like, banking and state and, like, various

285
00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:45,000
policies and regulations that your hand is forced in collecting the information. What about the

286
00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:46,000
other side in terms of, like, are there subpoenas from jurisdictions where sex work is

287
00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:47,000
criminalized, like, do you guys have to interact with law enforcement?

288
00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:48,000
Eliza

289
00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:49,000
Yeah.

290
00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:50,000
Kaytlin

291
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:51,000
How vulnerable is this information, I guess?

292
00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:52,000
Eliza

293
00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:53,000
So we've got some additional information in our knowledge base, which kind of goes a bit more

294
00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:54,000
into depth about, like, how long we keep things. But as a worker, as soon as your ID has been

295
00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:55,000
approved, it gets deleted and we keep a stub of, like, you were this age when we reviewed the

296
00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:56,000
ID, it came from this form, like, driver's license, passport, issuer. And it was approved by one of

297
00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:57,000
the people on our team at what time.

298
00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:58,000
In terms of subpoenas, because of the Australia and American alliances that are in place,

299
00:04:58,000 --> 00:04:59,000
there's something called, like, the Mutual Law Treaty Agreement. And this means that the US

300
00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:00,000
government can go through our governments to issue subpoenas as well. One of the things that

301
00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:01,000
is really important is we require a valid judiciary subpoena in order to even access or request

302
00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:02,000
information.

303
00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:03,000
It is not just, a police officer can reach out to us and go, “I want this person's information” and a

304
00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:04,000
lot of the time they don't meet the burden that the judiciary is looking for. I would say that the

305
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:05,000
rare subpoenas that we have received aren't for independent sex workers. It is typically

306
00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:06,000
involving serious crimes.

307
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:07,000
Kaytlin

308
00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:08,000
Something that you would want to cooperate with.

309
00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:09,000
Eliza

310
00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:10,000
Yes. And there have been instances where sex workers have been victims of crimes, and

311
00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:11,000
they've actually reached out and given us the information of officers, for example, or lawyers

312
00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:12,000
who will be contacting us in order to deliver a subpoena. But as a part of our general process, it

313
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:13,000
has to be valid. It has to be very targeted. And there are instances where it is appropriate for us

314
00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:14,000
to push back legally.

315
00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:15,000
And I think it can be really easy to say that, you know, we are just a company. But we’re a

316
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:16,000
company built of sex workers and technologists and activists who deeply care and believe that

317
00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:17,000
we deserve, sex workers deserve, access to platforms without stigma or discrimination. And in

318
00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:18,000
order for that to happen, we need things across the board to change. We need internet

319
00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:19,000
legislation to change. We need banking legislation to change. We need anti-discrimination

320
00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:20,000
protections so we can go to these institutes and go, “Well, no, it's not okay that you're treating

321
00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:21,000
us like this.”

322
00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:22,000
Every adult or sex industry professional I know have been some of the smartest individuals who

323
00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:23,000
are so aware of the potential harms that can occur not just in our industry but in any industry.

324
00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:24,000
And I think everyone is so motivated in making a world where we can actually talk about those

325
00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:25,000
issues and actually try and put in real mitigations rather than things that are being handed down

326
00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:26,000
by people who don't understand our industry, don't understand harm reduction.

327
00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:27,000
I think, one of the biggest things about the, I don't know, the sex industry, but also at Tryst, I

328
00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:28,000
think that particularly with the content team, there has been a real drive to ensure that we have

329
00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:29,000
a place where we can tell the the amazing parts of the sex worker community, but also thenot so

330
00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:30,000
great parts of like I don’t want to work, like it's got nothing to do with sex work. I just don't dream

331
00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:31,000
of labor. We get to celebrate the diversity and our experiences and actually have a place where

332
00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:32,000
we aren't there as inspiration porn. We get to be fully faceted human beings. And I think that is

333
00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:33,000
one of the most beautiful things about the people who work at Tryst is they hold various

334
00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:34,000
identities and together we get to try to build something better. We're all people, and sometimes

335
00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:35,000
we don't make, you know, the right choices. But we hope to do better. We want to learn from our

336
00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:36,000
mistakes.

337
00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:37,000
Kaytlin

338
00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:38,000
Thank you. Thank you for sitting down with me. And thank you for the work that you do.

339
00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:39,000
Everyone that I had the opportunity to speak to for this podcast is an inspiration. They are part

340
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:40,000
of a long and proud legacy of sex workers coming together to make things better, not just for

341
00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:41,000
their immediate community, but for all of us, for the generations that will come after us.

342
00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:42,000
And what stood out to me in this episode, and what I think is so inspiring about it, is the absolute

343
00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:43,000
power of people in a community standing together, pulling their resources and directing their

344
00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:44,000
focus. Sex workers across New South Wales built communities, first with each other, and then

345
00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:45,000
they made inroads into the halls of power and made real change happen.

346
00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:46,000
I think it's also important to remember the sobering words of advocates that have come before

347
00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:47,000
us, how important it is to stay vigilant against racism and xenophobia, and local regulatory

348
00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:48,000
efforts that seek to undermine our gains. And keeping Eliza's words in mind as we see the

349
00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:49,000
surveillance state grow all around us and all over the world. Sex workers know how to keep

350
00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:50,000
each other safe, and we have much to teach the rest of the world.

351
00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:51,000
And of course, you don't have to be a member of this community. You don't have to be

352
00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:52,000
somebody who has ever bought or sold sexual services to understand how important these

353
00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:53,000
rights are, not just for harm reduction efforts, although those are important, but also for our

354
00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:54,000
foundational freedoms.

355
00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:55,000
[closing music]