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All right. Welcome everybody out to podcast number 1085. In this podcast, we're going to do a live session where I problem solve with an individual whose name I'm not going to mention, but we're going to have a good time and solve some real problems. 

So stay with us. This is the elevate construction podcast, delivering remarkable content for workers, leaders, and companies in construction wanting to take their next step. Get ready to step out of your comfort zone with Jason Schroeder as he encourages you to do better, live a remarkable life and expect more. 

Let's go. All right. Welcome everybody. 

I hope you're doing well and staying safe out there. I hope, I think you're going to enjoy today's podcast. We've got an awesome individual here. 

Again, I'm not going to give you the name or the name of the company, but we're troubleshooting some stuff together and I'm pretty excited. I'm going to read just one little bit of feedback from our listeners and then we'll get right into it. So here's something somebody sent me, I think a little while ago and they said your podcast videos are being a fantastic source of inspiration and information to improve my role as a leader in the construction industry. 

So I thought that was really nice. It's a nice brief little note, lifted up my day, super positive. I just love it. 

So thank you to whoever, I don't mention their names as well because I don't have permission, but thank you to the person who sent that to me and I'm ready to go. All right. So Mr. I'm not going to mention your name. 

Let's get this going. So I thought about doing a podcast with you so we could solve some problems together because we can use our experience. Can you, can you give me a little bit of a background? What, what, just kind of paint a general picture that's not too descriptive and then I'd like to go into our first topic.

Okay. So we have a hard bid concept project that has over as 127 ASIs and has 630 RFIs and a slew of design changes. And we as a team are struggling with how to actually schedule the work when you have one ASI that is affecting a section of the building. 

And then another one that can't be done until that work is done. And we're really just struggling with try to come up with a plan for the job. We have a master schedule, but we are having a hard time coming up with a plan. 

Okay. So can I ask you some questions as we go that won't okay. Well, so, so first of all, that's that. 

So if I heard you right, lots of ASIs, lots of RFIs, you do have a plan, but that plan, let me, oh, I've never ever thought about this. You do have a plan, but you have to have a plan that can change or adapt to the design changes. Yeah. 

Immediately to, to keep the job. Yeah. To keep the job going. 

Okay. And then what, how far along are you? Currently we have, we have about 10 months left on the project. 10 months left. 

What was the overall project? Originally it was a one year, but it has gone to like one year, 10 months. Oh, one year, 10, one year, 10 months. All right.

And, and I'm not, I hope I don't want to get that. I know this podcast is going to get reviewed. So I didn't want to get myself in trouble here. 

So far has the one year been, wait, wait, it was originally one year. No, no. Has the 10 month extension for the most part been paid for because of the changes or not really? Um, not confirmed as of yet, but it will be. 

Okay. Okay. 10, four. 

All right. So I've got a couple of questions here that I'm really going to, uh, give your way. So, so the ASIs and the change or, or sorry, ASIs and RFIs and then the, the change orders, how, how much longer do we think that's going to last? Do we think that's going to be a continuous thing until the end? Yeah, it more than likely will be. 

Cause there's some things that we got to go fix in the building too. It was an existing building. Okay. 

And they, basically it's just a big TI. Okay. And they left some existing walls in and stuff like that. 

So it's been a real challenge for our, for us as a company to tackle this thing and come up with a good plan that flows due to all these ASIs and RFIs. Okay. All right. 

What percentage of the building do you think is under change? Meaning like, like if you said, you said right now we've got design and financial approval and direction and all of the fabrication for materials and resources for how much of the building versus how much not. Oh man. I'd say we've got maybe 60% of it approved in back to us. 

Okay. Okay. All right. 

So now we'll, we'll go into it and I'm going to, by the way, I have no idea what to do. We're going to attempt to figure this out together. Okay. 

All right. So in all seriousness, Oh, okay. I really think that I've, I, okay. 

Okay. I've got this. All right. 

So I'm going to say a couple of things and I'd like you to audit me if that's all right. Okay. All right. 

So, would, and, and I think these, this, these first couple ones, if you can give me some yes and noses, yes is a nose. You know what I mean? I'd really appreciate it. So, um, uh, let me get, let me paint a background. 

So I, I'm thinking of a multifamily, by the, no, let's not, I want, we don't want to talk about what kind of building. Let me say, oh, let's do this though. If we like, let's say multifamily is like really simple and repetitive and a, um, power plant or a nuclear reactor or, you know, like a football stadium is like a 10 on the complexity from one to 10. 

What's the complexity of this one without telling us what it is? I would say it's a six or seven six or seven. Yeah. Okay. 

Okay. Perfect. Okay. 

All right. So, all right. This is, this is even better. 

Let's say it's an office space. Every office space that I have ever worked with it, and especially the ones in a high rise, there's, there's a, there's the first flow. And what I mean by that is we've got zones and, and you, you know, all of this, by the way, I'm not patronizing, I'm just saying everything out loud on a podcast. 

You've got zones and you've got trades running through the zones. If people could see my hands, which they can't, the trades will, they actually, they would, they would go like this, but they're, they're going up the building in a first flow. Okay.

Typically, um, that first flow is as much of the rough, uh, rough in, uh, and you know, maybe the, the finishes as we can possibly do. Then the second flow, uh, typically that we have through the building is we're coming back and we're getting our, our hoist leaveouts, any of the, you know, maybe the trash shoe, uh, staging areas, the elevator fronts, the downspouts for the storm drain, whatever the case may be. So the second flow is what we have our, what we say is our comeback areas. 

Now, the problem in my, my opinion is that, and the designers aren't being evil about this, you know, I'm sure that they're, having a hard time. So the problem is, is that people think that, oh, if you change something, I can go here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here. Okay. 

So this is a first recommendation. I'd like to know what you think based on, based on the books, this is lean and built to fail. There's a direct correlation. 

If you have more work in process, then your project is going to take longer. And if you have a higher utilization over your capacity, your project is going to take longer by like a lot. Would you agree with that? A hundred percent agree with that.

So if your first flow and your second flow is now compounding, oh my gosh, this is such a good podcast so far. We're doing a good job here. First flow, second flow. 

Then now you have three, four, five, six, seven. You have other flows now that are happening because of design changes. Then your work and process is going from level to like, really like this, which means that your project is going to extend width wise.

So there, would you agree that it is a good idea, and if you don't, it's totally fine, to level the work and process as much as we can? Yes, I would agree. Okay. So the problem actually isn't how long construction takes. 

The problem, or the root causes the changes. And so we won't fault the designers, the owner, from wanting the changes, but we will understand what the root causes. Okay. 

So in my mind, oh, let me give you an example. By the way, is this okay? Yeah, perfect. Okay. 

The Bioscience Research Laboratory that I always talk about, did had an amazing owner, an amazing architect, an amazing team. About 30% of the building was under changes, and we were able to finish pretty well. And this is what we did.

We isolated our first flow. And then, oh, sorry, go ahead. No, I was gonna say, so your first flow is all the contract work that you had and you knew about.

Okay. Okay. Yes. 

So, and this was not done in a negative way, by the way. It wasn't like, oh, screw you guys. You can, you know, you can have, you know, whatever, you know, it wasn't a fight. 

It was strategically working with the owner. We isolated our first flow, which meant standard workforce, stable project management. I can't type because I'm typing notes from you as we go. 

Stable project management systems. And I would say consistent team. Okay. 

And so our second flow was, we were more flexible with, meaning we, oh, this is such a good podcast. I hope everybody's gonna listen to this. So the second flow was flexible. 

So we, we did have a standard workforce. And we did have stable PM systems and we did have a consistent team, but we tried to loop in as many changes into the second flow as possible. Now, let me paint a picture here. 

So that means our first flow is going through and on our visual maps. By the way, I'm gonna put this under recommendation and make notes. If you don't already have it, which you probably do.

Sorry about that. I would get large maps of the entire building. And if you don't have, if you don't have room, we can create a 3D axonometric view for you if you wanted to, if you ever needed it for you, but get large maps of the entire building under glass or plexiglass and start isolating this with the owner or do it in blue beam with polygons.

I'm sure you're already doing that. Are you already doing either of those? We have large maps under plexiglass on the conference room table. Okay. 

Perfect. Perfect. So in our second path or in our first pass, we would mark in red the areas that had been detached for the second flow. 

Okay. And then as we were about to get there, any changes we could loop into the second flow, we would put those little red boxes and be like, okay, we have the design, we have the financial approval, we have the fabrication and the delivery is going to hit on our second flow. So we're on the same page with that one.

And I'm sure you're doing that as well. So this is, okay. So this is not remarkable, but it is a neat podcast. 

So your third flow is probably going to have to happen based on the design changes. And that's going to be a flow for your non-absorbable changes. Now there's two things that will go on here. 

And I know that you're, if you're like Jason, Jamie, we can't do that. I totally understand. Please start throwing it back at me, but your non-absorbable changes will have an, if needed, and I'm just going to put I N for if needed, a separate workforce, if they're already busy, additional help if necessary. 

And I'm going to call it a secondary team, but I don't mean it like this. What I mean it as, if we do two things, we're in big trouble. Number one, if we let our primary first and second flow workforce get distracted and frustrated with bad morale, it will have catastrophic effects to the productivity. 

And then secondly, if we let our main project management team get distracted with change orders above our contract work, catastrophic. So those are the two things we can't do. And I should actually write this down in my little.

Yeah, no, it's a great idea. You're basically treating all the three tier changes as different projects. Yes. 

Yes. Or no, no, you're right. You didn't say anything wrong or a different project as a flow, if it's possible. 

So if you work, yep. So if you work and you and I both know this, if your workforce gets, it feels like it's an impossible task, the morale will go down in your meetings. You can't get anything done. 

They're like, well, this change, I can't even start. So everyone will get into a grid, a gridlock because there's this concept from Toyota respect for people. And I know you've heard that it doesn't just mean that we take care of people. 

It means that we also respect human nature and understand that human nature is as such and that we can accommodate and human nature is a trade partner start to feel like it's hopeless. They won't start things. So they won't even, they won't even do their contract work. 

Not that they're bad people, but they just don't see the path. Right. Okay.

Absolutely. So workforce gets distracted and then the team gets distracted. Now, there's really good, really good research behind all of this. 

If the owner is like not believing you, but honestly, what happens is if we were able to visualize this, if you attempt to, oh, this is brilliant, move your, your, your utilization over the capacity by increasing your work and process, then that is going to extend. Like you could literally simulate you're going, you're not going to finish in one year, 10 months. You're going to finish in two years, two months. 

If you, if you attempt to loop your third flow into your first and second, would you agree or disagree with that? I would totally agree with that. So the problem is, and I, and I'm not here to bad mouth CPM on this podcast. I've got plenty of others, but what happens is unless you crew tie all of the, all of these in CPM or unless you use a tack plan, which I'm not, I don't even need to get into that because you already have, you know what you're allowed to do, but it's, you could end up with a schedule that says, okay, if you, if you increase this work and process, oh, this is an official recommendation. 

If you increase your work and process or your utilization above your capacity and, and your schedule still shows, oh, I finished in one year and 10 months. Cause we're trying to do flows one, two, and three all the same time. That is not actually accurate. 

Whatever master schedule you have, you've got to crew tie it or level it out and show the real story. So let me paint a picture here. You can either, and you already know this time, I'm not trying to preach to the choir, but if you, if you loop all your flows into one thing and you're above your above capacity, you're going to finish in two years, two months versus, Hey, you might have to crew tie it all and level it out.

And it shows a one year, nine months. So if you were like, Hey, we're currently tracking a month behind our one year, eight month deal, our new newly formed deal. And they're like, oh, we can't do that. 

What about this schedule that shows you one year, eight months? No, it's either one year, whatever it is. I'm just painting a picture. It's either one year nine, or we can, or we can go above our capacity. 

It's two year, two year, right? So it's never, and that's what owners don't see. It's never the optimistic date. It's never the optimistic date.

So another official recommendation is adjust your schedule to show a crew ties or trade flow is what I like to call it. Uh, that will end up, um, that will, that will be, oh, be the fastest date. And if you want to show the alternative, the alternative, uh, would be your current schedule.

Yeah. Uh, plus, uh, the, the, what I'm going to call the trade flow extension, uh, uh, plus about three months at least of delay due to productivity loss. Okay. 

So was that helpful or no? Absolutely. Okay. So, so let's keep going. 

We're almost there. So you, so you can't let your workforce get distracted. Now the other thing is in your schedule, another, and another official recommendation is you've got to do the, the approval, uh, design, fabrication, deliver, and, and build as a part of your sequence in any remaining items. 

You, you, you're probably already doing that, right? We do pricing, approval, procurements, middles, all of that stuff. Um, are part of our schedule fragments for all these changes. Okay.

I love that. And here's a, here's a story that I want to paint. And, and by the way, if you, if everything I've said, you already know that's at least we have it on a podcast or at least your ideas are supportive, but here's the deal. 

A lot of times people will be like, okay, you got to change order in room such and such, right? And there's a string of activities, uh, financial approval, design, fabrication, deliver, and build. Um, well, why would I go and do any work in that room until that's figured out? So here's the two, here's the two part scenario that I would communicate to your trades. Uh, number one, if there's work, oh, actually there's a three part, three options. 

You can, you can do work, uh, that will not affect the change and then merge it in if it works. Okay. Yep. 

The other thing you can do is keep doing work and price any needed demo. Now, if your project gets really chaotic, that is sometimes better than the mental chaos of the project site, but probably the better one is if it, if it is, uh, not reasonable to start, then isolate that area as well on your maps. Okay. 

Right. So basically what, oh, I didn't mean, let me just say one quick thing. Basically, when your trades are looking at your maps, it's, you could even mark, all right, green first flow, blue second flow, and, and you could even have a legend on the, on the right that says green contract work, blue is comeback work, plus these a hundred ASIs or whatever, blah, blah, blah. 

And then literally, if it is a part of the third flow, your change flow, um, then you mark it out. And if there's a room where it's like, I don't know, we could, it's going to be close. I don't know. 

And the trades are like, I can't, why would I go in there and do any work? Then you might just say to yourself, Hey, we're pricing that change order with demo, or we're going to loop that into the isolation into the, into the third flow. And then possibly make that a fourth flow through the building. If the, if the pricing's not, okay, that makes sense.

And to your point, when you do these different flows, if you, if you cannot, people on this listening to podcasts are probably like, Jason, you're, you're smoking weed over there. There's no way that we're, oh, I shouldn't have said that. Uh, you're, you're on some kind of no, that doesn't let anybody know. 

Anyway, it's a saying. So there's nobody smoking weed, Hey, you're out of your mind. Let me just go to your, your mind. 

We're not going to get additional crews for this. Then it has to be first flow flowing into second flow, flowing into third flow, fourth flow in a trade flow line, not because we're being stubborn, but you and I know it's not possible for trades to do, to all of a sudden be burdened. Right. 

And it is going to be hard to get, um, additional manpower for different flows, but I think it's a great idea because you can go either the route of having those crews or you can just start to finish each flow and have the same crew go back and do the comeback work. That's a great idea. Okay. 

All right. I love that. And so, so I think we're on the same page. 

There's nothing new here, but from, from a, from a team standpoint, I do want to give a couple of recommendations. By the way, I know you already knew all this, but I would have a rally cry. Um, like you've probably heard that, that, uh, button, a story that John Kaufman told probably about. 

So really great podcast, but John Kaufman talked about a job that was completely just changes all the time. They had seven or eight, um, claims consultants on the job side. And they, they literally, uh, when, when John got on the site, he had a superintendent companion.

He was the project manager over the changes. And he was like, all right, let's come in and make friends. Let's isolate what we're doing. 

And then the superintendent gave everybody buttons that said, uh, we can do it, you know, and, and that was the rally cry. And your rally cry might be like, Hey, uh, we can do it or focus or focus on contract. I don't know, whatever it is, but I'm just saying teams work really well with a rally cry. 

Does everybody on the project understand what are we doing? And the problem with not doing it is, is if there's lots of changes, they're hearing from four minute workers and this, well, that's, they feel like they can't do anything. So they're now in this learned hopelessness, right? Yeah. So rally cry and then focus your team. 

And that is on your visuals, uh, sorry, visuals or blue beam. And when you do that, let they, they, I would choose your own colors. Like if you have four flows, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's green, blue, red, orange, green, blue, red, orange, green. 

And you could even get it so focused where if somebody, you could even put paint on the wall out in the, out in the field, I'm not saying do it, but you could on a room, on a doorframe where like it's, it's four colors of tape and somebody sees it and all. That's a green room. That's part of contract where I can go in here and do what I need to do with my materials.

Yeah, exactly. Or on every floor, post these maps or put your blue beam session, not a session project, sorry, or your visual maps on Canva on a QR code or, or, or, but I'm saying, keep your team focused. And then in your OAC, you can literally tell them, okay, this is what I would tell your OAC, OAC, I love you home. 

He's like, you're my, you're my best, right? This is our contract work. We're trying to get other crews, but we don't have them now train crews. Uh, so this is our second password. 

This is our third pass. It's on a flow until, oh my gosh, this is so good. It's all in a flow crew flowed from, from pass to pass to pass to pass until we can confirm new resources. 

So you know this, but let me say it for the podcast, a schedule is a wish list. It's the demand side of this, of the market and your crews and your production flow is the supply side of the market, which shows what we can do. So what the problem is, is that contractors or owners will force contractors to show a schedule of what they want.

No, we do not show the schedule showing finishing when they want until it is confirmed that the resources can actually do it. These two worlds have to be merged. So if they're annoyed, they're like, why do you keep showing your master schedule with flow one, two, three, four, all in a crew flow it with good trade flow. 

I want a better date. Okay. I will change the schedule. 

Once we've confirmed that we can get those additional resources and we can get the materials here. And I want to do that. And I'm committed to doing that, but I cannot legally lie to you. 

I cannot lie to you like a CPM schedule that shows finishing sooner without respect to what the trades can do is actually dishonest and illegal. Like that is not a legal thing to do. So you keep bringing that schedule in here and those and the maps that show what's in part of your different flows.

And it starts to paint a picture and the conversation starts to go much better. So focus your team. I would say that rally cry and those maps are absolutely crucial. 

And then I would all, I'm going to also, yeah, we already talked about you've got to have, if you've got CPM scanners or somebody who can help you, or if you've got attack plan or whatever, you've got to show that crew tie with that nice flow and you, what you can tell them. And I've got, I've actually got a nice graphic for you. You bring out too many people. 

You have productivity loss. You have too much work in process. You have productivity loss, too many materials.

You have productivity loss. And then number four is you have panic. You have productivity loss and you are, you already know about all four of those. 

Yeah. And so, you know, the other thing is in your, in your worker huddles or your, your job site huddles, which I recommend at least doing once a week, you can talk about that and start to say, no, we do not, we do not distract the workforce or the team and we do not add unnecessary people. We do not add unnecessary work in process. 

We do not add materials and throw them in people's way. And we do not panic people because we will lose, we will lose, we will lose, we will lose. And so that's, that's another recommendation I would teach against, and I'm writing these down in case you need them, distract, distraction over, over burden, over capacity, meaning too much work in process, too many materials, and that's at the place of work. 

And then the last one is too much or it's panic. Now, the last thing that I want to say is a superintendent's focus. Here's what happens to the team and you already know this, but let me just say it anyway. 

The team will start to get hopeless and go out and do something and see nothing they can productively do. And the mind will panic and people will start to escape or hide or just be busy. Right. 

So once your mind panics, they will escape, hide or be busy. So each person on the team needs a focus. And I'm telling you, when we get into trouble situations, it's not, and you don't do this, so I'm not saying you do this, but it's not time to run around and push and panic.

It's time to, and I would do this really well, really dig in and manage materials. You're probably already doing that, meaning your meetings that manage your supply chain have got to become really, really good. It's time to really dig in and hold to your daily huddles. 

I find that if your project is always changing, then you're really going to focus on your day plans with the trades, your foreman huddles, and you are going to lock in a weekly work plan, but you've got to make sure on a real time basis daily that you're looking out a couple of days and at least staying solvent there. That's where we're struggling is going too far out that three weeks, six weeks.

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