1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:06,210 You're listening to a very special podcast, episode 766, August 3rd, 2025. 2 00:00:13,740 --> 00:00:18,900 No one really cares what you say's, long as you mean it. 3 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:20,355 What's the point in w 4 00:00:21,245 --> 00:00:23,010 Hello and welcome to our very spatial podcast. 5 00:00:23,010 --> 00:00:23,490 I'm Jesse, 6 00:00:23,940 --> 00:00:24,120 I'm 7 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:24,420 Sue, 8 00:00:25,170 --> 00:00:25,920 and this is Frank. 9 00:00:26,370 --> 00:00:29,100 So thanks for joining us and uh, we hope you'll come back next time. 10 00:00:31,020 --> 00:00:33,150 Okay, so we've been doing this for 20 years. 11 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:34,800 That's true. 12 00:00:34,860 --> 00:00:38,970 Uh, we have lots of things that we've talked about also. 13 00:00:38,970 --> 00:00:39,240 True. 14 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:40,800 There's lots of things we haven't talked about. 15 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:42,690 I That's also true. 16 00:00:42,780 --> 00:00:46,050 I'm, no, the, the pause is, I'm still trying to figure out which thing to talk 17 00:00:46,050 --> 00:00:50,280 about, whether it's one that we have talked about or not talked about in 20 18 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,210 years, and, you know, it's, I don't know. 19 00:00:54,690 --> 00:00:56,250 Uh, were there any, go ahead. 20 00:00:57,269 --> 00:00:58,019 What have we not 21 00:00:58,019 --> 00:00:58,560 talked about? 22 00:00:58,980 --> 00:01:02,430 They're, they're like, we haven't really, I'm not saying I'm, I'm not 23 00:01:02,430 --> 00:01:03,540 saying we've talked about everything. 24 00:01:03,540 --> 00:01:04,230 I agree with that. 25 00:01:04,230 --> 00:01:07,440 I'm just trying to think, well, what, what, and I think it's, you know, you 26 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:08,729 see where you from, where you sit. 27 00:01:08,759 --> 00:01:11,399 So for me, I'm struggling to think of things we haven't talked about 28 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:12,750 that we would know anything about. 29 00:01:12,750 --> 00:01:14,970 Like we haven't talked about Marxist geography for the most part. 30 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:16,560 You know, that's something we haven't. 31 00:01:17,550 --> 00:01:18,780 I think we've mentioned it before. 32 00:01:18,905 --> 00:01:22,560 We, we have, but it in general, it's the various isms, right? 33 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:23,580 It's, yeah. 34 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,210 Uh, that's, that's more of what we not have not talked about are 35 00:01:27,210 --> 00:01:28,980 the more theoretical approaches. 36 00:01:29,550 --> 00:01:33,450 We tend to focus more on the, the day-to-day or something that someone 37 00:01:33,450 --> 00:01:39,270 has done or is doing more often than not is our, our conversation topics. 38 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:42,360 And so as we look at that. 39 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:49,920 And, and given our, our conversation last time with Willow and Eden about Geo Zone. 40 00:01:49,980 --> 00:01:51,990 And if you haven't had a chance to listen to that one, please go 41 00:01:51,990 --> 00:01:55,140 back and take a, listen to the, the 20th anniversary episode. 42 00:01:55,620 --> 00:01:57,900 AKA episode 7 65 AKA. 43 00:01:58,290 --> 00:02:00,450 Uh, the awesome conversation that Sue missed out on. 44 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:02,550 I did 45 00:02:03,390 --> 00:02:05,295 cause work, stupid day job. 46 00:02:05,405 --> 00:02:05,695 Yeah. 47 00:02:06,595 --> 00:02:11,700 But you know, as we look at those type of things, as we look at ways that we. 48 00:02:12,525 --> 00:02:17,745 Talk about, well, anything in general, but for us, of course, more 49 00:02:17,745 --> 00:02:24,585 specifically, spatial perception, conception, reflexivity, whatever 50 00:02:24,585 --> 00:02:27,915 other term we want to use that we're trying to to understand right now. 51 00:02:28,725 --> 00:02:34,935 There's lots of ways that we could, and it, I think it's getting better 52 00:02:35,265 --> 00:02:38,145 and I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing sometimes. 53 00:02:38,985 --> 00:02:39,530 Uh, in terms of the. 54 00:02:40,140 --> 00:02:45,270 Breadth of potential ways of discussing geography as we'll. 55 00:02:45,330 --> 00:02:45,930 We'll call it 56 00:02:46,830 --> 00:02:47,820 it, yeah. 57 00:02:47,955 --> 00:02:54,750 I, I, I don't disagree that it's getting better in the, um, I wanna use the 58 00:02:54,750 --> 00:02:58,680 word inclusive sense, maybe not the way a lot of people mean inclusive. 59 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:04,230 By that I mean for expanding to include lots of different things that. 60 00:03:05,490 --> 00:03:09,420 Go well beyond what we think of geography, what often the United States, we think 61 00:03:09,420 --> 00:03:14,760 of a geography, which is just, you know, regional studies or atlas studies. 62 00:03:15,540 --> 00:03:20,160 So yeah, I think we are definitely being more inclusive in that sense. 63 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,870 But I do struggle with relevance. 64 00:03:24,930 --> 00:03:28,800 I guess that would be the word I would gravitate towards is that I feel like 65 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:33,150 we, as a discipline struggle a bit. 66 00:03:33,570 --> 00:03:39,030 To articulate and demonstrate our relevance as that discipline. 67 00:03:39,060 --> 00:03:44,370 Now, there's lots of things we do that are sort of many times under the scenes 68 00:03:44,370 --> 00:03:49,180 or behind the scenes or, uh, you know, like the geospatial technology that 69 00:03:49,180 --> 00:03:53,740 underpins us, the data that we have, navigation services, GPS remote sensing. 70 00:03:54,145 --> 00:03:57,685 All those things, but I think that as a discipline, those isms we mentioned 71 00:03:57,685 --> 00:04:01,075 earlier and stuff like that, that inclusivity, I think we sometimes 72 00:04:01,075 --> 00:04:06,745 struggle a bit to show that this is important to just to the world, not 73 00:04:06,745 --> 00:04:08,545 necessarily to this just geographers. 74 00:04:09,655 --> 00:04:11,935 I think whenever we look at this, uh, it is. 75 00:04:12,740 --> 00:04:14,125 It it, well, it, it is a question. 76 00:04:14,125 --> 00:04:14,785 It's not a question. 77 00:04:14,835 --> 00:04:19,935 I think there is a recognition that geography as a discipline and a 78 00:04:20,025 --> 00:04:23,535 set of thought processes around the idea of location and where in the 79 00:04:23,535 --> 00:04:27,885 five themes or whatever we wanna, uh, kind of pin it to is important. 80 00:04:28,695 --> 00:04:35,145 But is it important to others as an independent entity, or is it 81 00:04:35,145 --> 00:04:39,915 just important in the way that they can utilize the spatial. 82 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:45,570 Um, perceptions, but that leans us into a much broader conversation, 83 00:04:45,900 --> 00:04:50,130 uh, about whether or not there are such things as disciplines as well. 84 00:04:50,430 --> 00:04:55,770 So it's kind of a, a two-headed thing if we start heading down that road. 85 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:57,630 That's fair. 86 00:04:57,630 --> 00:05:02,040 But you know, by the same token, as somebody who currently works 87 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:06,090 on the rubber hits the road piece of that in higher education it's 88 00:05:06,090 --> 00:05:07,920 very hard for us to conceptualize. 89 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,220 A non-disciplinary approach. 90 00:05:11,280 --> 00:05:16,340 I mean, there are people who do it, like Brown University famously does this that 91 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,520 you kind of fashion their own curriculum. 92 00:05:20,270 --> 00:05:24,950 But, you know, we think in terms of programs and, and set bodies of knowledge 93 00:05:24,950 --> 00:05:26,840 and, and all that sort of stuff like that. 94 00:05:26,840 --> 00:05:29,570 So for good or bad, should we, uh, we certainly debate that, 95 00:05:29,840 --> 00:05:31,040 but that's how it happens. 96 00:05:31,490 --> 00:05:35,210 And if that's the case, then how do we. 97 00:05:36,140 --> 00:05:39,830 How do we demonstrate our relevance for being at that, having a seat 98 00:05:39,830 --> 00:05:45,560 at that table as a discipline, not as a body of information. 99 00:05:46,550 --> 00:05:48,620 If, if you understand the distinction I'm making, 100 00:05:49,490 --> 00:05:52,460 I mean, it's not a, it's not a new problem, right? 101 00:05:52,460 --> 00:05:56,780 So if we think about in the 20th century, it's always weird to, we 102 00:05:56,780 --> 00:05:59,210 say in the 20th century, like it's kind of ancient history, right? 103 00:05:59,210 --> 00:06:01,470 Where geography is discipline. 104 00:06:03,090 --> 00:06:06,330 Went away in many places in the United States and had to, 105 00:06:06,330 --> 00:06:07,500 to kind of make a comeback. 106 00:06:07,500 --> 00:06:10,950 And in some places as a distinct discipline, never did. 107 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:18,090 And you know, the importance of those concepts 108 00:06:20,730 --> 00:06:22,560 are often, so how are they passed on, right? 109 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,120 So as educators, all of us, right? 110 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,400 We have to think about this is, this is the question. 111 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:27,390 How do we pass it on? 112 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:29,550 How do we present it and pass it on And, and. 113 00:06:30,150 --> 00:06:36,120 The paradigm or model that we've been working under for the last, you know, 114 00:06:36,150 --> 00:06:39,570 century or more further back for some disciplines has been this, right? 115 00:06:39,870 --> 00:06:45,660 That within this body of knowledge, mathematics, philosophy, history, 116 00:06:45,660 --> 00:06:51,990 geography or whatever you pass on elements of, of whatever it is, and more modern. 117 00:06:53,414 --> 00:06:57,015 We'll call it modern, uh, disciplines, anthropology, sociology, right? 118 00:06:57,015 --> 00:06:59,445 Social sciences, we'll call it whatever it is, right? 119 00:06:59,445 --> 00:07:00,825 That's, that's the thing. 120 00:07:00,825 --> 00:07:03,645 What goes with it and who should have the knowledge? 121 00:07:03,645 --> 00:07:04,844 And we would argue, course, everybody. 122 00:07:05,895 --> 00:07:09,044 Uh, and it's interesting 'cause I just had a conversation with a 123 00:07:09,044 --> 00:07:12,455 potential student coming into our university who is you know, what we 124 00:07:12,455 --> 00:07:13,625 would call non-traditional, right? 125 00:07:13,625 --> 00:07:17,344 Has already had a career and is changing tack, wants to do something 126 00:07:17,344 --> 00:07:21,335 else, but has a background, uh, and, and became interested in some of the 127 00:07:21,335 --> 00:07:22,915 things that, our discipline does. 128 00:07:22,915 --> 00:07:28,105 And, and, uh, our university has a program that's combined anthropology 129 00:07:28,105 --> 00:07:31,825 and geography, and it's combined around the theme of human landscape, right? 130 00:07:31,825 --> 00:07:35,665 So again, it's, it's what are in many places are two different disciplines, 131 00:07:36,085 --> 00:07:37,795 but they have crossover and sharing. 132 00:07:38,395 --> 00:07:43,054 And the concepts that you learn in either or both, uh, can 133 00:07:43,744 --> 00:07:45,124 apply in lots of different. 134 00:07:45,859 --> 00:07:49,400 Areas of your life, uh, but the traditional kind of what 135 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,049 is it is always a struggle. 136 00:07:51,710 --> 00:07:55,760 And so, uh, this, this student, you know, sat down and said. 137 00:07:56,465 --> 00:07:59,164 What his past career had been and, you know, kind of done all 138 00:07:59,164 --> 00:08:02,554 the things he was born, uh, in Australia, uh, came from there. 139 00:08:03,215 --> 00:08:05,224 And he talked about like, things he was interested in. 140 00:08:05,224 --> 00:08:07,114 I said, well, you know, we have geography classes about that. 141 00:08:07,114 --> 00:08:07,984 And he's like, yeah. 142 00:08:08,314 --> 00:08:10,684 Uh, and anthropology classes, he interested in archeology. 143 00:08:10,965 --> 00:08:14,655 So I think that, that, as you know, you guys are, are kind of 144 00:08:14,745 --> 00:08:15,705 you know, chatting back and forth. 145 00:08:15,705 --> 00:08:17,659 I was thinking back to that conversation in this. 146 00:08:18,235 --> 00:08:21,955 This very question, right is when he brought up things he was interested 147 00:08:21,955 --> 00:08:25,525 in, said, yeah, we have anthropology classes that talk about those topics. 148 00:08:25,765 --> 00:08:28,315 We have geography classes that talk about these other topics. 149 00:08:28,675 --> 00:08:32,484 But even he himself, while he was beginning to realize that he was 150 00:08:32,484 --> 00:08:37,164 interested in things that seemed to cover this discipline, he just wasn't, 151 00:08:37,615 --> 00:08:40,375 you know, really completely aware yet. 152 00:08:40,375 --> 00:08:43,645 So once he had those questions answered, is this the place for me? 153 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,639 He, you know, came out of that with a, Hey, you know, I, I might 154 00:08:47,639 --> 00:08:50,790 be coming here to complete a degree, but, but that's it, right? 155 00:08:50,790 --> 00:08:56,099 The, the way we define that body of knowledge as geography or, you 156 00:08:56,099 --> 00:09:00,630 know, anthropology or whatever it is doesn't necessarily speak to, to 157 00:09:00,630 --> 00:09:02,010 everybody to say this is what's in it. 158 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,620 But yet if, when we pointed out, right, and this has been 20 years 159 00:09:04,620 --> 00:09:08,430 of the podcast and all kinds of people working in this area, um, 160 00:09:08,430 --> 00:09:09,930 saying, you know, this is geography. 161 00:09:10,350 --> 00:09:12,930 Uh, and you should have this knowledge. 162 00:09:13,020 --> 00:09:17,580 And so you look for that word in, in your educational program, 163 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:19,140 maybe to get those concepts. 164 00:09:19,350 --> 00:09:20,850 But it's always, it's always tough. 165 00:09:20,939 --> 00:09:28,450 It, it's always tough to figure out how I think, to organize and transmit 166 00:09:28,450 --> 00:09:32,290 on these various bodies of knowledge and as things are evolving, right? 167 00:09:32,290 --> 00:09:36,730 Because those traditional discipline names I don't think are necessarily. 168 00:09:37,900 --> 00:09:41,020 As relevant for helping the next generation figure out this is, this 169 00:09:41,020 --> 00:09:43,450 is the the knowledge I wanna get and this is what I wanna do with it. 170 00:09:45,310 --> 00:09:49,180 I think that looking at the traditional disciplines, you know, just keeping, 171 00:09:49,330 --> 00:09:54,130 continuing to look at our department which just grew, but on our campus. 172 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:57,940 We have geographers in anthropology and geography. 173 00:09:57,940 --> 00:10:01,390 We have geographers in, uh, sustainability. 174 00:10:01,390 --> 00:10:05,690 We have, uh, geographers in places that are crossover, like 175 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,590 human, uh, sorry, honors college and women's and gender studies. 176 00:10:10,550 --> 00:10:15,020 So we, we have geographers as people with disciplinary knowledge 177 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:21,770 in lots of places that are then in other disciplines, which kind of. 178 00:10:22,850 --> 00:10:23,870 Speaks to both, which, and this, 179 00:10:23,870 --> 00:10:27,440 you know, maybe is a, is sort of a higher education organization 180 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,650 thing, which are in departments that often have the discipline's name. 181 00:10:30,740 --> 00:10:31,010 Yeah. 182 00:10:31,250 --> 00:10:31,520 Right. 183 00:10:31,580 --> 00:10:35,360 But it's also the fact that it's in disciplines that don't 184 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:36,440 have those traditional names. 185 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:43,420 Things like sustainability is, you know, it's something that is ubiquitous now. 186 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:44,770 But if you look. 187 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,210 10 years ago, you know, there were very few programs that 188 00:10:49,210 --> 00:10:50,350 were looking at sustainability. 189 00:10:50,350 --> 00:10:51,880 They were looking at sustainable development. 190 00:10:52,330 --> 00:10:56,020 They were looking at some of the things that sustainability includes 191 00:10:56,020 --> 00:11:02,230 now, but sustainability as it exists is as a degree at most 192 00:11:02,230 --> 00:11:03,970 universities, a relatively new thing. 193 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,035 So, yeah, it, it kind of feeds to what you were saying. 194 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:09,505 Y you know, it's kind of interesting. 195 00:11:09,505 --> 00:11:13,165 I was thinking about, you know, uh, West Virginia has the distinction of 196 00:11:13,165 --> 00:11:19,715 being, I think the highest per capita number of, of 18 year olds being 197 00:11:19,715 --> 00:11:21,365 raised by grandparents, which is not. 198 00:11:23,285 --> 00:11:27,305 Something you really wanna have distinction in, but that's true when, 199 00:11:27,335 --> 00:11:31,325 when parents and grandparents show up on our campus with their kids, you 200 00:11:31,325 --> 00:11:34,205 know, they're thinking in terms of job professions because, you know, they 201 00:11:34,205 --> 00:11:36,845 wanna make sure their kid has a good outlook and the ability to, you know, 202 00:11:36,935 --> 00:11:40,715 sustain themselves and, and, and eat and all that other fun stuff like that. 203 00:11:41,705 --> 00:11:45,545 So they, they understand, oh, I have a degree in accounting. 204 00:11:45,575 --> 00:11:46,565 I'm gonna be an accountant. 205 00:11:46,625 --> 00:11:49,445 Despite the fact that something, I just recently found this out, something 206 00:11:49,445 --> 00:11:53,705 like 30% of people who get a degree in accounting go into accounting. 207 00:11:54,145 --> 00:11:58,195 So statistically speaking, no, they won't be an accountant, but it's something 208 00:11:58,195 --> 00:12:02,785 they understand my, you know kid's gonna go into nursing, so they'll be a nurse. 209 00:12:02,785 --> 00:12:04,195 I get that. 210 00:12:05,125 --> 00:12:05,905 And I was just thinking about. 211 00:12:06,955 --> 00:12:11,935 Two questions, which is you said we have geographers in this discipline. 212 00:12:11,935 --> 00:12:13,435 We have geographers in that discipline. 213 00:12:13,435 --> 00:12:15,805 We have geographers in the other discipline, which I, I agree with, 214 00:12:15,805 --> 00:12:19,645 but it's just interesting to me that one, what, what is the geographer? 215 00:12:20,335 --> 00:12:23,305 What is the job of geographer? 216 00:12:24,190 --> 00:12:26,320 Which sort of relates to some of the stuff we're talking about. 217 00:12:26,950 --> 00:12:30,640 I call myself a geographer, but I've got absolutely no degree in it. 218 00:12:30,670 --> 00:12:31,060 Right. 219 00:12:31,150 --> 00:12:31,690 So yet, 220 00:12:32,020 --> 00:12:33,850 well, A A BD counts. 221 00:12:33,850 --> 00:12:34,330 I mean, come on. 222 00:12:34,390 --> 00:12:34,720 Yeah. 223 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,890 But, but the point is, is that, you know, reasonably, you could argue I'm 224 00:12:38,890 --> 00:12:42,115 a software engineer, I'm a computer scientist, I'm a political scientist, 225 00:12:42,115 --> 00:12:45,520 you know, but if we look at things like disciplines and obtainment and 226 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,580 stuff like that, economists, but not. 227 00:12:48,625 --> 00:12:51,355 Uh, not yet, uh, geographer. 228 00:12:51,625 --> 00:12:56,785 But then I was thinking of, what the hell is a job title for sustainability? 229 00:12:57,775 --> 00:12:58,135 You know what? 230 00:12:58,195 --> 00:13:04,015 Sustainability, ologist, I mean, what's, what, what is that? 231 00:13:04,225 --> 00:13:05,155 What's the word? 232 00:13:05,155 --> 00:13:05,485 Right. 233 00:13:05,485 --> 00:13:09,265 And it's, it's not, and I'm not saying that we need to have 234 00:13:09,295 --> 00:13:11,275 a job tied to a discipline. 235 00:13:11,275 --> 00:13:12,835 I don't think that's true whatsoever. 236 00:13:12,835 --> 00:13:17,875 And I think that the benefit of higher education is that in fact, what you. 237 00:13:18,250 --> 00:13:20,860 What you studied and what you do don't necessarily have 238 00:13:20,860 --> 00:13:21,820 anything to do with each other. 239 00:13:21,820 --> 00:13:26,470 You take what you learned and apply it to a much broader universe in some capacity. 240 00:13:26,470 --> 00:13:28,780 That, to me, is the real power of higher education. 241 00:13:29,230 --> 00:13:33,280 But getting back to what this parents and grandparents were asking is 242 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,110 like, what, what is a geographer? 243 00:13:35,110 --> 00:13:36,040 What do they do? 244 00:13:36,100 --> 00:13:37,330 How could they get, make money? 245 00:13:37,750 --> 00:13:42,370 I think that's, there is an element of, despite thinking about all the 246 00:13:42,370 --> 00:13:44,890 ways that we can think about spatial. 247 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:46,480 Stuff. 248 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:52,060 There needs to be an element of, you know, at least a toe on the ground saying, 249 00:13:52,060 --> 00:13:54,010 well, what the heck is the geographer? 250 00:13:54,730 --> 00:13:55,000 Yeah. 251 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:59,020 Well, I think that that plays into, and, and again, conversations that have 252 00:13:59,020 --> 00:14:01,960 been going on for quite a while now. 253 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:02,170 Right. 254 00:14:02,170 --> 00:14:04,630 As we try to try to figure out. 255 00:14:05,050 --> 00:14:08,530 All kinds of challenges in, in how we identify ourselves, right? 256 00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:12,850 How we present ourselves, and I'm saying ourselves, uh, as geographer. 257 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:13,900 'cause your last question, right? 258 00:14:13,900 --> 00:14:14,830 What is a geographer? 259 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:20,370 But how we fit into sets of knowledge and as a geographer 260 00:14:20,370 --> 00:14:21,840 who is in education, right? 261 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:26,010 I'm, I'm trying to pass on geographic concepts and methods. 262 00:14:26,385 --> 00:14:28,665 So that others can apply them in theory, right. 263 00:14:28,665 --> 00:14:29,535 And do them myself. 264 00:14:29,895 --> 00:14:33,105 But I think it's interesting, right, to give the parent and grandparent 265 00:14:33,105 --> 00:14:35,595 example because a couple years ago I may have mentioned, not the 266 00:14:35,595 --> 00:14:40,305 podcast, but I sat at a table during orientation sessions for our university 267 00:14:40,305 --> 00:14:41,240 and it, it just so happens that. 268 00:14:42,070 --> 00:14:43,960 Through a series of, of coincidences. 269 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,560 I was the only academic department that happened to be at this particular event. 270 00:14:47,860 --> 00:14:51,340 So all of the parents were like looking at other things that the university offered, 271 00:14:51,340 --> 00:14:54,310 but when they got to my table, they're like, this is like an actual department. 272 00:14:54,310 --> 00:14:58,210 And they began to ask all kinds of questions, just like you're talking about. 273 00:14:58,210 --> 00:15:02,410 They're like, well, you know what, what would you do if you took these classes? 274 00:15:02,410 --> 00:15:04,840 And so it's an interesting thing, uh, to tie into something 275 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:06,250 like sustainability, right? 276 00:15:06,250 --> 00:15:09,610 Is that I think seeing students. 277 00:15:10,350 --> 00:15:12,690 Who, who also are saying, you know, they have these questions from other 278 00:15:12,690 --> 00:15:14,550 people, like, what are you gonna do with your degree when you get out? 279 00:15:14,550 --> 00:15:17,370 And they're saying, what do I want to do with my life? 280 00:15:17,370 --> 00:15:17,580 Right. 281 00:15:17,580 --> 00:15:21,200 And a lot of them actually I think, and, and it's really heartening for me, for, 282 00:15:21,230 --> 00:15:24,890 uh, heartening, for me, there's a lot of them want to make a difference, right? 283 00:15:25,430 --> 00:15:26,630 They wanna carve out something. 284 00:15:26,630 --> 00:15:30,800 And so when we look at, uh, traditional disciplines, right? 285 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,340 They're like, okay, so if I'm that, how can I, how can I make a difference? 286 00:15:35,420 --> 00:15:35,780 Right? 287 00:15:36,050 --> 00:15:38,980 But they see, a word like sustainability. 288 00:15:38,980 --> 00:15:41,020 Like they say, well, sustainable future. 289 00:15:41,020 --> 00:15:41,350 Right? 290 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,950 I can do that, but that's not traditional in the sense of 291 00:15:44,950 --> 00:15:45,970 how we think of disciplines. 292 00:15:45,970 --> 00:15:47,470 But it's made up of that. 293 00:15:47,470 --> 00:15:50,200 The things that you would need to know are made up of sets of 294 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,710 knowledge that come from traditional disciplines, quite a few of them, right? 295 00:15:53,740 --> 00:15:59,211 And when you have the, those sort of newer ways of organizing a, a 296 00:15:59,545 --> 00:16:03,590 plan of attack for your education or a curriculum, then you're helping. 297 00:16:04,225 --> 00:16:07,315 The student get what you think is that right body of knowledge, but Right. 298 00:16:07,315 --> 00:16:12,715 But you as a geographer thinks X, Y, and Z would help you understand how to 299 00:16:12,715 --> 00:16:17,035 get a job that relates to sustainable development or futures, right? 300 00:16:17,035 --> 00:16:21,715 Or working for a nonprofit and preserving green spaces, whatever that might be. 301 00:16:21,715 --> 00:16:23,635 You as a geographer will say these, these are the pieces. 302 00:16:23,635 --> 00:16:25,975 I think that geographic knowledge is important for. 303 00:16:26,385 --> 00:16:29,295 Then you might get someone else to say, yeah, but you know, if you're working 304 00:16:29,295 --> 00:16:32,175 in local government to do these things, then you need to know about policies. 305 00:16:32,175 --> 00:16:35,145 So over here is political science going, Hey, what about these things? 306 00:16:35,655 --> 00:16:38,745 And if you're trying to think about maybe sustainable businesses or 307 00:16:38,745 --> 00:16:42,105 recycling or something like that, then you're like, well, you know, 308 00:16:42,105 --> 00:16:45,705 some market marketing and business and some economics might help you out. 309 00:16:46,095 --> 00:16:49,755 And so I think one of the interesting things in defining disciplines, 'cause 310 00:16:49,755 --> 00:16:52,275 then I mean like we're, we're kind of, for me, I've kind of taken the 311 00:16:52,275 --> 00:16:55,575 conversation a little bit, but it's something that I think about, right, is. 312 00:16:56,765 --> 00:17:01,295 As an educator, how can I help the students that come and want an education 313 00:17:02,045 --> 00:17:04,655 get knowledge that I think they can apply? 314 00:17:04,865 --> 00:17:05,195 Right? 315 00:17:05,195 --> 00:17:09,305 And so that's one of the things though, is, is the traditional disciplines are 316 00:17:09,305 --> 00:17:15,065 important and they're important sets of knowledge, but the student isn't yet 317 00:17:15,065 --> 00:17:20,135 ready to figure out which pieces of those knowledge am am I gonna pull on later on. 318 00:17:20,435 --> 00:17:22,115 So, you know, they're just getting. 319 00:17:23,150 --> 00:17:24,980 Geography and then later on they'll say, well, these pieces 320 00:17:24,980 --> 00:17:26,180 of geography are important to me. 321 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:30,680 And so I think it's a challenge and something that I think about and struggle 322 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:37,670 with is right, is how can I maybe help and say, look, these bits of knowledge 323 00:17:37,700 --> 00:17:41,300 for something you wanna do, which is make a difference and, and hopefully 324 00:17:41,300 --> 00:17:42,920 help the future be more sustainable. 325 00:17:42,980 --> 00:17:44,330 'cause we're using that as an example. 326 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,320 So I might say then you might not know it's geography. 327 00:17:49,865 --> 00:17:52,235 But it is because we're learning about the world. 328 00:17:52,235 --> 00:17:56,135 So to come full circle back in a, in a long route to, to phrase the 329 00:17:56,135 --> 00:17:59,075 question, right, what makes a geographer to me, it's like understanding the 330 00:17:59,075 --> 00:18:00,365 world and how we live in it, right? 331 00:18:00,365 --> 00:18:01,325 So that's part of it. 332 00:18:02,075 --> 00:18:07,025 And that section of it is what's relevant to these other things. 333 00:18:07,385 --> 00:18:10,925 But I feel like I have to be the one to say, you know, this is, this 334 00:18:10,925 --> 00:18:12,365 is why this piece goes in here. 335 00:18:13,115 --> 00:18:17,775 I would go back to an earlier statement that I made that there's that other side 336 00:18:17,775 --> 00:18:19,605 of things of there is no discipline. 337 00:18:19,725 --> 00:18:23,985 We're all looking at the exact same things from slightly different perspectives. 338 00:18:24,425 --> 00:18:27,935 And as we get more literature, as we get more people, um, creating 339 00:18:27,935 --> 00:18:33,215 new approaches and new theories and new methodologies, we're creating 340 00:18:33,305 --> 00:18:37,115 quote unquote new disciplines or more programs or whatever it is. 341 00:18:37,415 --> 00:18:38,285 But we're really all. 342 00:18:39,455 --> 00:18:45,275 Trying to largely address the same issues of keeping the planet going. 343 00:18:46,865 --> 00:18:54,345 And so the disciplines are good for those people who are in the positions 344 00:18:54,345 --> 00:19:01,785 that we're in, where we're looking at it from a PhD level or something like that. 345 00:19:02,685 --> 00:19:07,365 Those people who wanna get a degree so they can do something, so they 346 00:19:07,365 --> 00:19:10,425 can make a living so they can make a little bit of a change, make 347 00:19:10,635 --> 00:19:12,555 whatever it is they wanna make it. 348 00:19:12,945 --> 00:19:16,695 The disciplines are far less important to them for the most part. 349 00:19:17,175 --> 00:19:26,115 Um, for instance, I'm the whatever it's called for two of our honor societies, and 350 00:19:27,135 --> 00:19:29,145 whenever we had our initiation this year. 351 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,420 Um, a lot of people were doing both the geography, gamma theta, epsilon and 352 00:19:33,510 --> 00:19:41,100 geospatial technologies, gamma theta, but they were also in other honor societies 353 00:19:41,430 --> 00:19:44,670 for other portions of the degrees that they were working on, whether it 354 00:19:44,670 --> 00:19:48,660 was something like sustainability or environmental science or, um, marine 355 00:19:48,660 --> 00:19:50,940 science or whatever other degree it is. 356 00:19:50,940 --> 00:19:56,940 So it's, they don't necessarily feel that they have to be attached to 357 00:19:56,940 --> 00:19:59,865 one discipline and I, I. Don't know. 358 00:20:00,495 --> 00:20:04,365 I don't, I, I, it's been too long to say whether or not I felt that I was 359 00:20:04,365 --> 00:20:06,795 an archeologist or an anthropologist. 360 00:20:06,795 --> 00:20:08,835 Whenever I was graduating from undergrad. 361 00:20:08,835 --> 00:20:12,195 I, I probably did, but it, it was less important. 362 00:20:12,525 --> 00:20:15,560 I definitely had an identity tied to my discipline. 363 00:20:16,215 --> 00:20:17,685 I can say that categorically, 364 00:20:17,950 --> 00:20:21,495 I I will say back in the day you often introduced yourself as an archeologist. 365 00:20:21,555 --> 00:20:21,675 Did 366 00:20:21,675 --> 00:20:21,765 I? 367 00:20:22,065 --> 00:20:22,695 Well, okay. 368 00:20:22,695 --> 00:20:27,525 But that was, to be fair, that was in the Department of Geography and well, geology 369 00:20:27,525 --> 00:20:30,815 and geography events where I, I was. 370 00:20:31,310 --> 00:20:34,850 Largely tug and cheek saying I'm an archeologist coming into geography. 371 00:20:34,940 --> 00:20:35,600 So yes, 372 00:20:35,810 --> 00:20:39,050 for me it was about this stupid. 373 00:20:39,230 --> 00:20:40,160 I think it's stupid. 374 00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:43,420 I think a lot of people think it's stupid, so I'm not unique, but we have 375 00:20:43,570 --> 00:20:46,690 delineation between STEM and not stem. 376 00:20:46,695 --> 00:20:46,805 Uh. 377 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:48,175 That's what we articulated. 378 00:20:48,175 --> 00:20:48,730 It wasn't even called 379 00:20:48,730 --> 00:20:49,810 that at that at that time. 380 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:51,670 It just, I say what, that's what we call it now. 381 00:20:51,730 --> 00:20:56,470 But yeah, then it was, you know, stem, I'm a real, you know, hard science 382 00:20:56,470 --> 00:20:57,940 versus one of those social science or 383 00:20:57,940 --> 00:20:58,810 humanities peoples. 384 00:20:58,810 --> 00:20:59,020 Right, 385 00:20:59,050 --> 00:20:59,440 right. 386 00:20:59,830 --> 00:21:00,130 Yeah. 387 00:21:00,220 --> 00:21:04,780 It's just, you know, anyway, so for me it was a point of pride 388 00:21:04,780 --> 00:21:06,340 to say I'm a social scientist. 389 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:06,910 Suck it. 390 00:21:06,940 --> 00:21:11,770 You know, it's kind of so, it, it was about that in opposition to all the 391 00:21:11,770 --> 00:21:15,640 engineers I was hanging out with, and so. 392 00:21:16,765 --> 00:21:20,875 I had an identity, but I wouldn't say that it was an identity necessarily 393 00:21:20,875 --> 00:21:25,225 embodied in the notion of a discipline. 394 00:21:25,315 --> 00:21:29,365 You know, it was really about in opposition to being looked down on. 395 00:21:29,425 --> 00:21:32,515 So it comes from a different place and a different purpose, I think. 396 00:21:33,295 --> 00:21:36,565 And then you complicated all by saying, you know, like, because I mean some 397 00:21:36,565 --> 00:21:39,925 of this comes back to Right again, uh, as educators, we think about, 398 00:21:39,925 --> 00:21:41,545 you know, how are we going to trans. 399 00:21:42,220 --> 00:21:43,690 Knowledge on and what knowledge is it? 400 00:21:43,690 --> 00:21:49,700 But, uh, the stuff I keep coming back to are the humanities and literature 401 00:21:49,700 --> 00:21:54,680 stuff that I got as undergrad in the current research I'm doing right. 402 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:56,600 I come back to that more often than not. 403 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,380 So if I'd never had that grounding, I would really be struggling with 404 00:22:00,380 --> 00:22:01,460 some of the things I'm doing. 405 00:22:01,490 --> 00:22:03,350 And also I think that they're valuable. 406 00:22:03,855 --> 00:22:07,755 So, so beyond saying, you know, I'm doing my science, my geography, whatever, 407 00:22:07,755 --> 00:22:10,425 there's also other knowledge sets that turns out are really important 408 00:22:10,425 --> 00:22:11,865 and we, we try to understand that. 409 00:22:11,865 --> 00:22:16,275 So to Jesse's point, right there, there, uh, you know, the disciplines, should 410 00:22:16,275 --> 00:22:19,065 there really be any, I guess it's order out of chaos and we have to do, we have 411 00:22:19,065 --> 00:22:22,095 to create containers and boundaries 'cause it's just natural, right? 412 00:22:22,125 --> 00:22:29,235 But it is that struggle to try to, you only have so much time and to 413 00:22:29,235 --> 00:22:31,125 try to put together some education. 414 00:22:31,830 --> 00:22:33,750 That will be both useful. 415 00:22:34,020 --> 00:22:37,560 Um, but you can see sort of how it's gonna apply to you. 416 00:22:38,100 --> 00:22:38,280 Yeah. 417 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:39,870 But moving on beyond the classroom, right? 418 00:22:39,870 --> 00:22:44,335 We still perpetuate this nonsense with, you know, having these different. 419 00:22:45,900 --> 00:22:47,280 Stove pipes Yeah. 420 00:22:47,340 --> 00:22:50,850 Of departments and disciplines and, and how information 421 00:22:50,850 --> 00:22:52,590 doesn't carry across at all. 422 00:22:52,980 --> 00:22:58,680 I keep, so I've gotten really into the AI thing of late and a lot of context, 423 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:03,430 and I'm gonna be on a panel next week after next about AI and higher 424 00:23:03,430 --> 00:23:05,710 education, uh, here at Fairmont State. 425 00:23:06,340 --> 00:23:06,910 And. 426 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:13,120 The thing that keeps, I keep getting struck by, in all the stuff I'm reading 427 00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:18,610 about AI right now is that, look, if you just took the GIS and Society debates 428 00:23:18,610 --> 00:23:22,960 and put a line through GIS and put AI underneath it, it's all the same. 429 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,510 It's pretty much exactly the same. 430 00:23:26,065 --> 00:23:31,465 Issues, context complaints, pushbacks arguments, the whole 431 00:23:31,465 --> 00:23:32,845 nine yards that's happening. 432 00:23:33,505 --> 00:23:38,455 But that Gi s society, if you are not in GIS, I'm not even talking about geography. 433 00:23:38,455 --> 00:23:41,725 'cause there's hundreds if not thousands of geographers that have 434 00:23:41,725 --> 00:23:44,905 no idea what the Gi S and society debates were or what was about. 435 00:23:45,655 --> 00:23:49,555 If you're not in that sub-discipline of that discipline, you have no idea 436 00:23:49,615 --> 00:23:53,425 that this stuff has already been hashed through at some level already. 437 00:23:54,355 --> 00:23:57,955 But now we've just dropped AI in there to have the same arguments 438 00:23:57,955 --> 00:23:59,245 over and over and over again. 439 00:23:59,935 --> 00:24:03,715 That one I know really well, but I have to think that there's dozens of these, 440 00:24:03,715 --> 00:24:07,465 thousands of these, maybe even that this, some disciplines are sitting around 441 00:24:07,465 --> 00:24:08,485 going, we've already talked about this. 442 00:24:08,485 --> 00:24:09,175 I dunno why you're bother. 443 00:24:09,175 --> 00:24:11,215 I don't know why you're barking up this tree. 444 00:24:11,845 --> 00:24:16,345 But we don't do a good job even moving beyond the, you know, 445 00:24:16,615 --> 00:24:18,775 typical college education of saying. 446 00:24:19,645 --> 00:24:23,735 Your college education is 120 credit hours, ballpark of for an 447 00:24:23,735 --> 00:24:27,605 undergraduate degree in the United States, what 30 or 40 is your quote 448 00:24:27,605 --> 00:24:29,915 unquote major, which do the math. 449 00:24:29,915 --> 00:24:33,245 That means the overwhelming majority of what you're doing is not your major. 450 00:24:33,245 --> 00:24:37,775 It's other stuff, but we don't do other stuff after we get done. 451 00:24:37,865 --> 00:24:40,175 It's, as you can see, soapbox, angry. 452 00:24:41,345 --> 00:24:46,565 Well, but the, the other stuff also gives context for the general knowledge. 453 00:24:47,105 --> 00:24:49,625 For us to be able to build into the specific knowledge. 454 00:24:49,625 --> 00:24:54,455 That's a whole liberal arts conversation, which probably don't 455 00:24:54,455 --> 00:24:55,865 wanna go down that rabbit hole. 456 00:24:55,865 --> 00:24:56,075 No, I'd, 457 00:24:56,345 --> 00:24:59,945 that's probably a bit bit more of a, a, a bite than we wanna swallow today. 458 00:25:00,125 --> 00:25:00,185 Yeah. 459 00:25:00,185 --> 00:25:04,655 But, uh, N-C-G-I-A-G-I-S. 460 00:25:04,745 --> 00:25:07,895 Yeah, that's what you want to search for on whatever your 461 00:25:07,895 --> 00:25:09,395 preferred search engine is. 462 00:25:09,665 --> 00:25:14,725 And you will find white papers, the entire conferences that 463 00:25:14,725 --> 00:25:16,465 were discussed Friday Harper. 464 00:25:16,915 --> 00:25:17,305 Yeah. 465 00:25:17,425 --> 00:25:18,595 And multiple places. 466 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:18,940 That's, I remember that. 467 00:25:18,945 --> 00:25:19,765 That's one of them. 468 00:25:19,765 --> 00:25:20,905 But there are others as well. 469 00:25:21,415 --> 00:25:23,605 Yeah, so that's it. 470 00:25:23,605 --> 00:25:24,955 It is a, 471 00:25:27,235 --> 00:25:29,725 I don't know, maybe a conversation we should have of going through. 472 00:25:30,580 --> 00:25:34,660 The initiatives and just kind of paralleling what was discussed. 473 00:25:35,110 --> 00:25:40,180 And again, it's not like GIS was the first technology to face these issues. 474 00:25:40,180 --> 00:25:40,840 It's just. 475 00:25:42,295 --> 00:25:47,245 Through the N-C-G-I-A funds, um, from NSF and others that led to 476 00:25:47,245 --> 00:25:49,465 these conversations being hashed out. 477 00:25:49,615 --> 00:25:54,625 It's some of the best documented, I think, representations of what came outta that. 478 00:25:54,625 --> 00:25:58,165 Yes, you have, um, journal articles or conference papers 479 00:25:58,165 --> 00:26:01,915 that came out of the conversations and other technologies as well. 480 00:26:01,915 --> 00:26:07,105 But this just gives you this very rich, set of easy to point to white 481 00:26:07,105 --> 00:26:11,455 papers that look at, you know, what does it mean to be society? 482 00:26:11,455 --> 00:26:14,545 What is it something, uh, in terms of community, what does it have 483 00:26:14,545 --> 00:26:16,765 to do with, uh, economic output? 484 00:26:16,765 --> 00:26:18,415 What does it have to do with this, that, and the other? 485 00:26:18,415 --> 00:26:23,725 And I dunno, our, our main initiative that we heard the most about was initiative 19. 486 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,430 Um, which was GIS and Society, A AKA participatory treat part. 487 00:26:28,670 --> 00:26:29,630 Well, okay. 488 00:26:29,775 --> 00:26:30,135 Participatory. 489 00:26:30,170 --> 00:26:32,750 Participatory, GIS and community integrated GIS. 490 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:38,390 Uh, and that's just because two of the leaders of that area were at WVU. 491 00:26:38,930 --> 00:26:46,220 Um, so it was Trevor Harris Dan Wiener, and Craig, who was not at WVU, so 492 00:26:46,220 --> 00:26:47,450 I can never remember his last name. 493 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:49,010 I can 494 00:26:49,010 --> 00:26:49,715 never remember Craig. 495 00:26:51,050 --> 00:26:53,630 Go look at the book, look at the community, the editors of 496 00:26:53,630 --> 00:26:54,740 the book, GIS book, the third. 497 00:26:55,130 --> 00:26:57,170 Yeah, actually he was the lead author in the book. 498 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:57,710 Yeah. 499 00:26:58,050 --> 00:26:59,460 He was the third of the crew, but yeah. 500 00:27:00,540 --> 00:27:03,570 But since he wasn't at WVU UI just don't have his last name memorized. 501 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:04,290 Um. 502 00:27:05,970 --> 00:27:08,910 So, yeah, I mean there's, that's just one, and that wasn't the 503 00:27:08,910 --> 00:27:10,230 last initiative by any means. 504 00:27:10,230 --> 00:27:17,700 So it was like 24, 25 different initiatives and yeah, I mean they all, in 505 00:27:17,700 --> 00:27:21,930 many ways speak like Frank is saying to those conversations that are going on now 506 00:27:21,990 --> 00:27:28,080 in terms of ai, which is breaking down disciplinary boundaries in and of itself. 507 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:29,940 It's kind of generational, right? 508 00:27:29,940 --> 00:27:32,245 Because that was what, 30 years ago? 509 00:27:33,110 --> 00:27:34,610 Roughly when it first started. 510 00:27:34,610 --> 00:27:34,730 Yeah. 511 00:27:34,730 --> 00:27:35,090 So, 512 00:27:35,810 --> 00:27:37,760 so that a lot of that Well, okay. 513 00:27:38,090 --> 00:27:39,170 Was a debate of its time. 514 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,020 So, uh, good on you for remembering. 515 00:27:42,020 --> 00:27:44,450 The editor's last name is actually William Craig. 516 00:27:44,565 --> 00:27:45,230 Oh, oh, that's 517 00:27:45,230 --> 00:27:45,440 fine. 518 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:45,830 Okay. 519 00:27:45,860 --> 00:27:46,220 Yeah, 520 00:27:47,060 --> 00:27:47,630 I remembered the name. 521 00:27:47,630 --> 00:27:47,900 So 522 00:27:48,830 --> 00:27:50,330 I did the index, got the, I award one. 523 00:27:50,330 --> 00:27:50,630 Craig, that book, 524 00:27:53,030 --> 00:27:55,310 it's William Craig, Trevor Harris and Daniel Wiener. 525 00:27:55,310 --> 00:27:55,505 So yeah. 526 00:27:56,870 --> 00:28:01,670 And of course, lots of other people who provided chapters, uh, if not in 527 00:28:01,670 --> 00:28:05,810 the book, than in many of the, um, workshops that led up to the book. 528 00:28:06,410 --> 00:28:08,300 There was a brief time when I knew it, like by heart. 529 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,090 Yeah, because I doing the well, and it's 530 00:28:11,090 --> 00:28:14,630 not like we don't remember most everything that's in there except 531 00:28:14,630 --> 00:28:17,210 for maybe some of the specific case studies at this point, but. 532 00:28:18,350 --> 00:28:21,380 It's, well, the big themes, you know, is that, how does this technology 533 00:28:21,380 --> 00:28:24,110 j talking about GIS, like you said, there was lots of other things going 534 00:28:24,110 --> 00:28:28,280 on, but yeah, just focusing on GIS, the big themes were, you know, what's 535 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:29,480 the purpose of this technology? 536 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,430 How does it fit within a civil society? 537 00:28:31,430 --> 00:28:33,560 You know, who should own it, who should control it? 538 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,710 Who, who gets represented, who doesn't get represented? 539 00:28:36,710 --> 00:28:38,330 How do we decide those things? 540 00:28:38,330 --> 00:28:38,990 All those sort of. 541 00:28:39,340 --> 00:28:40,420 Big questions. 542 00:28:40,750 --> 00:28:44,680 Again, just scratch out GIS and put ai and it's the exact same conversations 543 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:50,380 we're having right now about AI and, and like you said, this is probably, I 544 00:28:50,380 --> 00:28:54,280 mean, maybe one of the fa most famous ones I could think of that happened 545 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,670 would be the A bomb right is after. 546 00:28:58,175 --> 00:29:00,875 The atomic bombs dropped in the end World War ii. 547 00:29:00,905 --> 00:29:06,035 There was these conversations happening as well, just not nearly as well documented. 548 00:29:06,065 --> 00:29:07,685 And I'm sure they had this about the computer. 549 00:29:07,685 --> 00:29:12,365 I'm sure they had this about transistors and all, and radio and tv and everything 550 00:29:12,365 --> 00:29:14,645 we can think of is big technology. 551 00:29:14,915 --> 00:29:19,865 This happened since 1945, so it's not anything new. 552 00:29:19,865 --> 00:29:23,480 But going back to our original sort of talk about geographer. 553 00:29:24,590 --> 00:29:27,980 And the stove piping is, it's very frustrating to me that we keep having 554 00:29:27,980 --> 00:29:33,980 to rehab these conversations and say the same things, but somehow it's 555 00:29:33,980 --> 00:29:37,280 all new because we didn't bother to pick up a book and look at somebody 556 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:38,660 else's way of thinking about things. 557 00:29:38,660 --> 00:29:39,710 Well, I think that could be fair 558 00:29:39,710 --> 00:29:44,030 to, uh, to, it is not, there's some of that, but also, right, and I meant in the 559 00:29:44,030 --> 00:29:45,680 generational sense, we think about how we. 560 00:29:46,625 --> 00:29:48,845 In scholarly work, pass things on, right. 561 00:29:48,845 --> 00:29:53,405 Is that, uh, a work that's like, because I remember this joke, like somebody 562 00:29:53,735 --> 00:29:55,505 posted on one of the social medias, right? 563 00:29:55,505 --> 00:29:58,685 That a student, uh, asked them if it was okay for them to cite 564 00:29:58,685 --> 00:30:00,515 literature from the 19 hundreds. 565 00:30:00,725 --> 00:30:02,975 And he said, you know, and the joke was that the professor, like, you 566 00:30:02,975 --> 00:30:05,195 know, it was, felt like a hundred years old when they heard that. 567 00:30:05,615 --> 00:30:08,255 Uh, but, but I think one of the things, right, is why we 568 00:30:08,255 --> 00:30:10,115 rehash these things is also in. 569 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,910 How we pass on knowledge and reference it, right? 570 00:30:13,910 --> 00:30:18,320 If it doesn't get referenced in the next generation of scholarly work, 571 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:19,490 a lot of that stuff fades away. 572 00:30:19,490 --> 00:30:22,670 We're now, we're back to, you know, the findability arguments, 573 00:30:22,670 --> 00:30:25,190 things that we've hashed out, but but that's part of it, right? 574 00:30:25,310 --> 00:30:29,990 Because we can only, we can only stuff in so much knowledge at any given time. 575 00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:32,540 And, and I think that. 576 00:30:33,365 --> 00:30:38,555 It's the, the choices that get made for those who continue on references 577 00:30:38,555 --> 00:30:41,135 and discussions of particular things. 578 00:30:41,435 --> 00:30:41,705 Right. 579 00:30:41,765 --> 00:30:42,995 And if it gets passed on. 580 00:30:43,205 --> 00:30:45,425 So those debates, right. 581 00:30:45,425 --> 00:30:49,955 If, if you happen to, I mean like it got brought back up, the Abom example, right? 582 00:30:49,955 --> 00:30:53,345 When we saw the movie, Oppenheimer brought a lot of that stuff back up, that there'd 583 00:30:53,345 --> 00:30:56,435 been a lot of discussion and debate. 584 00:30:57,335 --> 00:31:00,755 And it's the same thing with some of these other technologies as if 585 00:31:00,755 --> 00:31:02,165 you go back and say, well, you know. 586 00:31:02,900 --> 00:31:05,750 Uh, just even you saying it right, that we had this debate already, 587 00:31:05,930 --> 00:31:09,320 uh, or a similar form of it, uh, when we talked about GIS right. 588 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:10,340 One example of many. 589 00:31:10,730 --> 00:31:15,740 Uh, and now it's, it's being revisited in ai, but it wouldn't necessarily be that 590 00:31:15,770 --> 00:31:20,300 there would be a chain, uh, of people being able to go back and say, oh, yeah. 591 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:26,370 And so, so it's, it's in some cases just not looking for background. 592 00:31:26,370 --> 00:31:29,705 But in other cases, it's just the way we do things is that we, we want the. 593 00:31:30,465 --> 00:31:31,995 The more recent stuff, so 594 00:31:32,295 --> 00:31:34,635 Well, and that's, that's somewhat a problem, right? 595 00:31:34,635 --> 00:31:35,115 Is Yeah. 596 00:31:35,505 --> 00:31:40,665 Uh, whenever you do submit to a journal you are expected to ignore everything 597 00:31:40,725 --> 00:31:42,360 that is more than two or three years old. 598 00:31:43,590 --> 00:31:46,290 I am being hyperbole, hyperbolic there, but unless it's something 599 00:31:46,530 --> 00:31:46,980 seminal 600 00:31:47,070 --> 00:31:47,370 Well, yeah. 601 00:31:47,460 --> 00:31:47,520 Two, 602 00:31:48,420 --> 00:31:49,380 two or three years old. 603 00:31:49,380 --> 00:31:52,380 And also not in your discipline, you know? 604 00:31:52,410 --> 00:31:52,470 Yeah. 605 00:31:52,470 --> 00:31:56,640 Unless you wanna bring it in as a, as a way to sort of like, oh, borrowing from 606 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:01,860 this discipline's methodology of doing, you know, red triangles, we're gonna do 607 00:32:01,860 --> 00:32:04,110 this and you can do that, that's okay. 608 00:32:04,110 --> 00:32:04,800 But for the most part. 609 00:32:05,775 --> 00:32:08,835 You know, you're making your, like you could say exactly what they said just in 610 00:32:08,835 --> 00:32:10,665 geography and boom, that's a publication. 611 00:32:10,725 --> 00:32:11,205 Like what? 612 00:32:11,505 --> 00:32:11,925 That's not, 613 00:32:13,065 --> 00:32:17,205 I mean, and you know, that's a whole other conversation as they all are of, 614 00:32:18,285 --> 00:32:23,805 whenever we look at the things we were reading whenever we were an undergrads 615 00:32:23,865 --> 00:32:29,745 or grad students still, um, you know, they were looking at decades worth of. 616 00:32:30,330 --> 00:32:33,990 References not something from the last decade. 617 00:32:34,410 --> 00:32:38,850 So now we're just relying so much on the summarization of previous 618 00:32:38,970 --> 00:32:42,810 work as our references that it's just whole other things. 619 00:32:42,900 --> 00:32:42,990 Yeah. 620 00:32:43,290 --> 00:32:44,280 To put in GIS 621 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,600 terms, we're, we're, we're, you know, scrubbing up to fuzzier pixels 622 00:32:48,660 --> 00:32:53,250 and expecting to get the detail, which we just are gonna miss things. 623 00:32:53,250 --> 00:32:53,310 Yeah. 624 00:32:56,790 --> 00:33:00,690 But yeah, it's, there's a lot of things that we have talked about, a 625 00:33:00,690 --> 00:33:02,010 lot of things we haven't talked about. 626 00:33:02,220 --> 00:33:04,680 This is something we kind of have, but kind of haven't. 627 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,490 So I guess we straddled the line a little bit on that one. 628 00:33:09,030 --> 00:33:12,720 I'm, I'm kind of torn as to whether I want to start going back and finding 629 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:18,120 specific content that we've talked about that just needs refreshing 630 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,590 or start looking for things that we just haven't, because again. 631 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:28,710 We've never taken on conversations about, you know, reflectivity or reflectivity 632 00:33:28,710 --> 00:33:35,580 or some of the more, I dunno, feminist approaches to the way that we do things. 633 00:33:35,580 --> 00:33:40,050 We, I think, incorporate a lot of those ideologies in what we do, but 634 00:33:40,050 --> 00:33:41,460 we haven't really talked about them. 635 00:33:41,670 --> 00:33:42,810 You know, those kind of things. 636 00:33:42,810 --> 00:33:44,565 It would be interesting, but that we haven't touched on. 637 00:33:45,495 --> 00:33:46,305 I think it'd be interesting. 638 00:33:46,305 --> 00:33:49,365 But the challenge I think is of course is uh, this often happens. 639 00:33:49,395 --> 00:33:53,175 I don't mean to call out Sue, but she rightfully sometimes says, 640 00:33:53,175 --> 00:33:57,435 look, I feel like I need to do some background on that, whatever topic 641 00:33:57,585 --> 00:33:58,995 it is, you know, that we bring up. 642 00:33:58,995 --> 00:34:02,175 And I go, that's fair because you don't, you don't wanna make sure you understand. 643 00:34:03,420 --> 00:34:05,520 The landscape a little better. 644 00:34:05,940 --> 00:34:07,230 So I think we'd have to do a little bit of that. 645 00:34:07,230 --> 00:34:10,320 So it'd have to be planned a bit, but I think it would be a very interesting to 646 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:15,150 tease at some of those things that aren't necessarily are are explicit wheelhouse. 647 00:34:16,650 --> 00:34:19,530 But I also think it would be fun to go back and look at some of our 648 00:34:19,530 --> 00:34:20,640 old stuff and see what's changed. 649 00:34:22,765 --> 00:34:24,330 And in the end we won't do either of those. 650 00:34:24,330 --> 00:34:24,840 We'll just keep, 651 00:34:25,140 --> 00:34:25,410 I don't know. 652 00:34:25,410 --> 00:34:26,370 Or has it changed? 653 00:34:26,670 --> 00:34:26,850 Yeah. 654 00:34:27,240 --> 00:34:27,510 Going 655 00:34:27,510 --> 00:34:28,865 forward we have things. 656 00:34:30,750 --> 00:34:33,150 I mean, I, I think it would be fun to talk a little bit about the, you 657 00:34:33,150 --> 00:34:38,760 know, the isms or to talk about some of these, these reflexivity and, and 658 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,410 all that sort of stuff a little bit. 659 00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:44,790 And I think also we did a little bit of critique of geography 660 00:34:44,790 --> 00:34:48,360 as a, as a. Discipline today. 661 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,200 And even disciplines as disciplines, uh, today. 662 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:53,490 So think it could be fun to talk a little bit about that. 663 00:34:53,490 --> 00:34:56,010 So maybe, you know, I, I'm gonna, I'll push for it. 664 00:34:56,460 --> 00:34:56,700 Okay. 665 00:34:57,990 --> 00:34:58,350 Sure. 666 00:35:00,270 --> 00:35:03,990 Uh, if you have any ideas of what we should be discussing 667 00:35:06,750 --> 00:35:08,670 or wanna be interviewed and have a chat, 668 00:35:08,730 --> 00:35:09,810 well Okay. 669 00:35:09,930 --> 00:35:11,940 The people who wanna be interviewed, apologies. 670 00:35:11,940 --> 00:35:13,140 I am terrible at replying. 671 00:35:14,175 --> 00:35:16,665 But maybe I will eventually reply to you. 672 00:35:16,755 --> 00:35:19,365 Uh, we do have an interview coming up in the near future. 673 00:35:19,765 --> 00:35:23,725 I don't remember if the next episode or not, but I'll be talking to the 674 00:35:23,725 --> 00:35:27,145 folks from World Pop about their new dataset that they're about to put 675 00:35:27,145 --> 00:35:29,695 out, um, in the next two episodes. 676 00:35:30,460 --> 00:35:31,540 I've got two on the horizon. 677 00:35:31,660 --> 00:35:32,620 I haven't got 'em scheduled. 678 00:35:32,620 --> 00:35:35,690 Scheduled because they're two very busy people, but that'll be fun too. 679 00:35:36,290 --> 00:35:40,460 But do feel free to, to reach out to podcasts@veryspatial.com 'cause 680 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,740 I might actually be looking at email that day and it may not get buried, 681 00:35:45,740 --> 00:35:47,750 but I'm not gonna put money on it. 682 00:35:49,190 --> 00:35:49,605 Maybe I should. 683 00:35:50,225 --> 00:35:52,415 You start using an AI driven mail. 684 00:35:52,415 --> 00:35:52,835 We should have 685 00:35:52,835 --> 00:35:54,875 a form, we should have an online form. 686 00:35:54,935 --> 00:35:55,145 Yeah. 687 00:35:55,145 --> 00:35:59,285 But the problem is, is with an online form, somebody still has to check it. 688 00:35:59,465 --> 00:35:59,885 That's fair. 689 00:36:00,545 --> 00:36:00,905 That's fair. 690 00:36:01,745 --> 00:36:05,555 And well actually no, it could email you, but you know. 691 00:36:05,585 --> 00:36:05,885 Yeah. 692 00:36:05,885 --> 00:36:06,815 But then we're back to Sure. 693 00:36:06,905 --> 00:36:08,255 Still check it, they thing. 694 00:36:09,215 --> 00:36:10,865 So right back where we started, yes. 695 00:36:11,825 --> 00:36:12,485 Something has to. 696 00:36:13,060 --> 00:36:16,750 Another part has to happen that is human based and that's where it all goes wrong. 697 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:23,080 Um, yeah, of course if you do have an event, let us know about 698 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:27,040 it, and we will hopefully share it over@podcastresearch.com 699 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:27,790 as I mentioned before, 700 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:29,861 and I would like to not only, you know. 701 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:34,010 Go to events in geography, obviously related to our disciplines, but you know, 702 00:36:34,010 --> 00:36:37,970 go to things that are tally related, even like sort of local politics related. 703 00:36:38,180 --> 00:36:40,370 Next week I'll be at the West Virginia Municipal League, which will be 704 00:36:40,370 --> 00:36:43,880 a lot of fun because they're not normally thinking about either GIS or 705 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:45,950 geography in West Virginia at least. 706 00:36:46,340 --> 00:36:50,270 But it's gonna be fun to sort learn how they think about these concepts. 707 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,480 So there's lots of other opportunities out there, you know, branch out 708 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:54,410 a little bit, stretch yourself. 709 00:36:54,980 --> 00:36:58,730 We're gonna be coming up a click on Earth Science Week. 710 00:36:59,870 --> 00:37:03,710 In the middle of October, geography Awareness Week, November the Fall, 711 00:37:03,710 --> 00:37:04,940 AG Regional meetings. 712 00:37:05,630 --> 00:37:05,780 Yeah. 713 00:37:07,610 --> 00:37:11,870 The a a G in, uh, San Francisco this year. 714 00:37:12,260 --> 00:37:12,680 So 715 00:37:12,710 --> 00:37:13,370 this coming year? 716 00:37:13,375 --> 00:37:13,585 Yeah. 717 00:37:13,590 --> 00:37:13,910 Yeah. 718 00:37:13,970 --> 00:37:18,710 Amusingly both the A A G and the A SAA, which is Society for American Archeology, 719 00:37:18,710 --> 00:37:20,150 are both gonna be in San Francisco. 720 00:37:20,390 --> 00:37:22,340 They're just gonna be like a month and a half apart. 721 00:37:23,540 --> 00:37:24,500 Oh, you have to stay there whole time. 722 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:24,710 Yeah. 723 00:37:24,710 --> 00:37:26,420 Can't do That's, that's two plane tickets. 724 00:37:26,420 --> 00:37:27,290 That's, yeah. 725 00:37:27,380 --> 00:37:27,950 That's pricey. 726 00:37:28,100 --> 00:37:30,050 Well, there, there was one year that they were, that. 727 00:37:30,485 --> 00:37:32,015 Well, A a G and something else. 728 00:37:32,015 --> 00:37:33,035 Were back to back. 729 00:37:33,035 --> 00:37:35,825 And I almost stayed for both, but didn't, I don't remember what it was anymore. 730 00:37:35,855 --> 00:37:36,545 That was a long time ago. 731 00:37:36,575 --> 00:37:39,515 Maybe that was the P-C-A-A-C-A that we missed one year. 732 00:37:39,785 --> 00:37:42,575 But yeah, let us know if you have an event. 733 00:37:43,265 --> 00:37:46,265 And of course if you'd like to reach us individually, I could be 734 00:37:46,265 --> 00:37:47,945 reached at sue@veryspatial.com. 735 00:37:49,235 --> 00:37:53,105 You can reach me atFrank@veryspatial.com and you can reach our missing member 736 00:37:53,105 --> 00:37:55,205 today at barb@veryspatial.com. 737 00:37:55,715 --> 00:37:58,685 I'm available at jesse@veryspatial.com and of course, you can find all 738 00:37:58,685 --> 00:38:02,165 of our contact information over at very spatial.com/contacts. 739 00:38:04,205 --> 00:38:06,455 As always, we're the folks from very spatial thanks for 740 00:38:06,455 --> 00:38:06,905 listening, 741 00:38:07,235 --> 00:38:08,405 and we'll see you in a couple weeks. 742 00:38:24,725 --> 00:38:25,865 No one really cares. 743 00:38:25,865 --> 00:38:30,185 What you say is long as you mean it. 744 00:38:30,575 --> 00:38:35,975 What's the point in wearing a face if you don't believe it? 745 00:38:36,815 --> 00:38:38,920 It's honestly, it's best to be. 746 00:38:39,875 --> 00:38:47,225 True to who you are and try to be a version of something that you not 747 00:38:49,895 --> 00:39:00,665 close your eyes and let it all just wash away and it, you don't have to change. 748 00:39:02,975 --> 00:39:07,295 You'll see that perfect is imaginary. 749 00:39:07,385 --> 00:39:08,495 You don't have. 750 00:39:09,185 --> 00:39:10,295 To carry. 751 00:39:10,295 --> 00:39:13,715 Hey, just be yourself. 752 00:39:24,275 --> 00:39:25,865 No one has it all figured out. 753 00:39:27,845 --> 00:39:32,110 One day you'll see it even when your head's filled with doubt. 754 00:39:33,180 --> 00:39:35,400 Your heart's underneath it. 755 00:39:36,330 --> 00:39:41,010 Honestly, it's best to be true to who you are. 756 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:46,470 All you need is there to breathe, to give it one more shot 757 00:39:48,660 --> 00:39:51,780 and just close your eyes. 758 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:57,150 Let it all just wash away and give it time. 759 00:39:57,990 --> 00:39:59,940 You don't have to change. 760 00:40:02,130 --> 00:40:02,820 You'll see. 761 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,325 Imaginary, you don't. 762 00:40:35,550 --> 00:40:36,630 Close your eyes. 763 00:40:38,430 --> 00:40:43,380 Let it all just wash away it time. 764 00:40:44,250 --> 00:40:47,040 You don't have to change a thing. 765 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:54,030 Soon you'll see that perfect imaginary, you don't have. 766 00:40:56,655 --> 00:41:01,215 Just be and close your eyes. 767 00:41:01,605 --> 00:41:06,555 Let it all just wash away in time. 768 00:41:07,335 --> 00:41:10,095 You don't have to change thing. 769 00:41:10,575 --> 00:41:16,605 Soon you'll see that perfect imaginary, you don't.