00:04.42 briandoleary Natural Order Podcast! Back with you, Adam Haman and myself, Brian O'Leary here back with you. We decided we needed to get back on the saddle. Me in particular, Adam is too busy with the cigarette boat known as Haman Nature to stop. But, uh, figured we'd get back in this thing and talk about the debate with Trump and Biden that took place, what? On Thursday night? We're recording this Friday. That's what we're doing here today, gang. 00:39.79 Adam Haman I knew, Brian, we were going to talk about a show on CNN last night, but I tuned and watched and watched Grumpy Old Men 3. You're saying that was a presidential debate? 00:53.42 briandoleary Yeah, I would say the 90-plus-year-old, probably, at the time, Burgess Meredith, handled himself much, much better than Joseph R. Biden. 01:03.06 Adam Haman Holy moly. 01:05.52 briandoleary So, that was my initial thing. We talked last night, Adam. And so, for the folks out there. It's not that Adam and I don't talk. We talk a lot, actually, still. We just don't do these for public consumption as much. But we decided that, yeah, maybe we need to. Or maybe we want to, so we will. But we were talking last night. I said, "I don't want any reaction. I want to see this thing for myself." And I had turned it on for honestly, a couple minutes, and I'm like, "Wow. Holy cow." But to your point, Adam, when we were, talking, you said, "I don't really want to see the reactions ahead of time or want anybody talk about it." I started taking notes when I rewatched this thing. And it was like the whole Nixon/Kennedy thing. If I just listened to Biden, it wouldn't been as bad, but this was bad. If you saw the guy, it was bad. And everybody probably figured that out. But anyway, go ahead. 02:09.88 Adam Haman Well, yeah, it took about half a second. I mean, he dodderingly shuffled to the podium, mumbling. I mean, he had a lapel mic on, he was just sort of mumbling incoherently. 02:19.85 briandoleary Yeah. 02:21.69 Adam Haman And that's how the thing started. It didn't get any better. And we'll get into the details, but I'll give Biden, I think an "F". I think that's clearly a failing grade. 02:34.79 briandoleary Yeah. 02:36.22 Adam Haman I think Trump won the debate easily. And that's with about a D+ as a performance. 02:41.51 briandoleary I would agree. 02:43.06 Adam Haman I thought he was horrible, and he barely beat this walking cadaver. 02:49.31 briandoleary Yeah. And he had everything. Speaking of the golf analogies that may come up later, but he had everything teed up right for him just to smack it right down the fairway. And he was chucking it off. 02:57.28 Adam Haman Yeah, he missed it. So, I was using basketball analogies with Jennifer last night. But it was like, he just keeps missing these layups. 02:59.21 briandoleary He was chucking it off the tee. 03:09.09 Adam Haman Yeah, Biden will just outright tell some huge lie or offer some huge layup about how bad Biden is and how great Trump is. And Trump just couldn't articulate any of it. It was, it was weak, weak, weak sauce. 03:20.65 briandoleary Yeah. To your point, the first reaction I wrote down: "Biden can't walk and he can't speak." 03:30.62 Adam Haman But other than that... 03:33.62 briandoleary Yeah, and then he goes in and says he the pandemic was not handled well by Donald Trump. That was his opening -- one of the opening salvos. It's like, yeah. Granted. We all know this. We all know that Trump failed with the whole COVID response. But guess what? He made it umpteen times worse with his policies and whatever. Of course, he goes in and mentioned Scranton. You know, growing up in Scranton. That was the old Scranton line that he brought. And then the corporate greed, you know, talking about that. I'm just like, man. Biden is a liar. He just lies about stuff. 04:14.85 Adam Haman Oh, yeah. 04:16.57 briandoleary And it's like, that's nothing new. But then I'm like, oh well, Trump, you know, whether you can call him a liar or not, he's super, super boastful and exaggerating. But Biden actually just doesn't tell the truth whatsoever in many cases. So. 04:32.13 Adam Haman Yeah, I would say Trump, obviously is hyperbolic. You know, he tells whoppers of lies, but I would say they're directionally true. If you listen to what he says, you sort of get an idea of what he's about and what he intends to do. 04:42.01 briandoleary Right. 04:46.00 Adam Haman Biden, on the other hand, is just a criminal who just lies about everything. But one of the most interesting, fascinating, and childish parts of this debate was the one you just mentioned, where they're both acting like two-year-olds, or four-year-olds, who broke the vase and mommy's mad and they're pointing at each other. 05:06.36 briandoleary Yeah. 05:06.11 Adam Haman They're both trying to hang the COVID nightmare and inflation on each other, just going, "He did it! No, no, he did it! No, he did it! No, no, he did it!" It was pathetic. You both did it gentlemen. You're both terrible. 05:20.24 briandoleary Yeah. And one of the things that came up a lot is the gaslighting. Joe Biden constantly called Trump a liar or "He lies!" or "Liar!" realizing (or not realizing, maybe gaslighting us all) that he is just an extraordinary liar, has been in his entire political career. He's been a liar and he got knocked out of the Democratic primary back in, what was that? 1988 or '84 maybe even? I think '88, because he fabricated a resume or his educational background, just fabricated entirely. And he did, he's done that for years. 06:04.88 Adam Haman He can also walk onto any major golf course in the country and shoot a 78 at any time, right? Were you were aware of that? 06:15.38 briandoleary And he'd backtrack to, "I know I might be an eight, or I wasn't an eight. And like, he's almost, what? He's 78. He could shoot his age? There's no chance. 06:25.67 Adam Haman I would pay a significant amount of money to watch him try to hit 10 golf balls. 06:31.27 briandoleary Yeah. And the flubbing and stuff. I don't know if we have -- we don't really have a particular direction, but geez, not lying, but just the mental. And the ineptitude he had. He was talking about, you know, boasting -- Biden talking about once again, he's boasting about going to France for the D-Day stuff where, "Trump didn't do that. I did. I went to the World War Two or World War One cemeteries and I spoke to the soldiers who died." Oh, my God. I mean, come on. 07:09.55 Adam Haman If it's true, he should be president! Or at least a strong advisor. 07:10.55 Adam Haman On a positive note for Biden (and I can only see one) he did promise to beat Medicare, which I've been waiting for, for a long, long time. 07:19.36 briandoleary I mean, yeah. Or I thought he said, "We already beat it." 07:31.26 Adam Haman Maybe, "I'll defeat it, okay?" Even better. Doesn't look defeated, but... 07:36.67 briandoleary Yeah, we beat Medicare. Okay. 07:38.88 Adam Haman Well, if you'll indulge me, I just don't think there's that much to talk about with Biden, except for a couple of hoaxes that he trotted out on stage. 07:39.35 briandoleary All right. I shall. 07:50.50 Adam Haman So, I'd rather focus a little bit more on Trump because I do think he won. His strongest tactic was hammering on the immigration problem, which is obviously a concern for a lot of people, Democrats included. And the fact that the economy is a nightmare. And although Trump spent a whole lot of money, you know, he's not good on the economy except maybe in the regulation-cutting department a little bit. 08:11.24 briandoleary Right. 08:20.75 Adam Haman It is obviously a good idea to hang the current wretched economy around the neck of the incumbent and he did that. But he just was so verbally inarticulate. And again, that's compared to a cadaver. But Trump just could not make his points very well at all. I was really surprised. 08:40.79 briandoleary Do you think some of it had to do with the format where Trump couldn't get in his zingers and he's not really well-known for, like, this, you know, stand up speech, and other than being on a teleprompter. But he's good off the cuff with the zinger and they cut the mics so he couldn't, nail him so well. 08:57.11 Adam Haman Yeah, but actually, no, I think the format helped him because the only thing that could have propped up Biden is if he could have said, "Yeah, well, this guy was just interrupting me all the time." And, you know, "I couldn't get a word in edgewise." I think the back-and-forth was plenty of enough time to allow Trump to make the -- I mean, you could say that some of the questions, you know, were a little more anti-Trump than anti-Biden. You could make that argument. I'm not even sure I would, but you could. But no, I just think Trump fumbled the ball. He missed easy layups. Particularly like when Joe would -- I didn't think he would bring up that "fine people" hoax again. You know, it was recently debunked by even left-leaning Snopes. 09:40.02 briandoleary Amazing. 09:43.08 Adam Haman Everybody knows that's not true. 09:43.60 briandoleary And he went down that road two or three times. 09:44.50 Adam Haman And he tried it out again. 09:46.96 briandoleary Two or three times and went back to it too. 09:47.32 Adam Haman Yep. 09:49.78 briandoleary And he said, oh, something about -- I'm glad you brought that up. He talked about the people coming out of that forest carrying those torches. I'm like... And then the whole January 6th thing. Which, I think we probably talked about on this show before, but just how he's trying to hang him with that whole Jan 6th narrative. And it's like, it's the same thing as the Charlottesville stuff. Or it's like, it's not really true what the media portrayed the problem and, or even the actual thing to be. And, and certainly Trump's role in any of it was not. 10:36.05 briandoleary Yeah, it was totally blown out. 10:37.37 Adam Haman But again, he had -- Trump had such obvious responses and he just blathered a little bit. All right. 10:42.33 Adam Haman I mean, how hard would it have been to say, "Yeah, it sounds like a right-wing insurrection when a bunch of angry people stormed a place and didn't bring any guns. They thought they could take over the government. That sounds like Republicans, right?" 10:56.14 briandoleary Yeah. 10:55.97 Adam Haman Didn't even bring any firearms to a revolutionary revolt. 11:02.52 briandoleary Right. Yeah. And I think I saw somebody online say, he could have said, "Well, 1776 was an actual insurrection." 11:11.22 Adam Haman Sure. 11:12.18 briandoleary That actually happened. But more to your point earlier, but this debate, while somewhat entertaining and it got us talking, it doesn't change anything. If you were going to vote for Trump or not vote for Trump or vote for Biden or not vote for Biden, I can't imagine any person changing their mind after last night. 11:39.47 Adam Haman Oh, I can. sure. 11:40.94 briandoleary Oh, yeah? 11:42.81 Adam Haman There's a -- I think there's a fairly substantial percentage of the public that's either independent or slightly left-leaning who was just sort of reflexively going to vote for Biden because Trump is wild and unhinged and insane. And Biden is, you know, basically just a responsible, adult, left-leaning Democrat. And they've been told by the corporate press that, you know, maybe he fumbles on the stairs or turns the wrong way on a podium and tries to shake invisible people's hands. But behind closed doors, this guy's juggling flaming swords and reciting poetry and doing, you know, calculus in his head. 12:16.30 briandoleary No. 12:19.05 Adam Haman So I think most people who aren't just obsessed with politics and haven't been paying attention might've tuned in and gone, "Oh my God, what in the world is happening?" 12:28.13 briandoleary Interesting point. Yeah, that's a decent analysis. Do you think it's enough to move the needle either way? I don't know where the needle is pointing right now. 12:34.35 Adam Haman It could, I forget who it was. We haven't gotten to the reaction part yet, but somebody smart, maybe it Naval Ravikant, uh, his tweet just after the debate, his tweet was just, "Who's running the country?" 12:50.84 briandoleary Yeah, no kidding. 12:51.55 Adam Haman Like, so for the average person who hasn't been following things and just tune in, they might be thinking, "This ship is rudderless. We don't have a captain. What's going on here?" 13:04.12 briandoleary Yeah, I'm getting to that point. If Biden in any way acts the same as he did on stage, as he did last night, he evoked just shock and confusion the entire time. And some of it was legit outrage, but it was anything Trump said. He was like shocked to hear it, confused if it was real. And then, he had a comeback to a lot of this stuff, but he was fumbling. It was worse than -- I fumble along with my speech, but hey, you know, he fumbled. He was not able to, you know, beating Medicare? Huh? Okay. All right. We beat Medicare? Like, I don't even know what that means. And then the one thing I saw last night, before I rewatched it and I tweeted something to the effect. And, uh, early on, he said, "I don't understand the last sentence you said, and I don't believe you did." 14:07.17 Adam Haman Yes, that was he could have said that a lot. 14:09.51 briandoleary That was a -- oh, he could have said it every time. 14:10.38 Adam Haman He could have said that a lot. 14:13.85 briandoleary And I'm. Yeah, I'm really bummed out he didn't because it was just a perfect opportunity to just lay into the guy. And so, when Biden did that and said, "Oh, you have the morals of an alley cat." Or, "That's just outrageous." it doesn't sound sincere or real. But when Trump can do that to Biden, he just dismisses the guy altogether because yeah, it's appropriate. 14:37.33 Adam Haman That's appropriate. Yeah, you're right. The only thing Joe Biden had -- you know, the tennis analogy, a strong forehand or whatever. The only thing he kept going back to was just this sort of doddering moral outrage. And he kept trotting it out over and over and over. In fact, I got myself in a little trouble. You know, we were playing a little drinking game here. 15:00.35 briandoleary Oh boy. 15:03.72 Adam Haman And I didn't go with, "Come on, man" or "Malarkey" or any of that stuff. I went with something I thought was safe which was "Oh, the very idea that...!" Well, I believe Joe said that 50 times. And I went to the hospital last night. "The very idea of this man thinking blah blah blah..." And that's all he had. That was his only gear, this moral outrage at Trump. 15:06.85 briandoleary It didn't seem to work at least once. "Yes, I did. You got about six jobs" or something. 15:31.84 Adam Haman At Trump, it kind of makes sense. I mean, that's sort of been the left-wing position since he came down the golden escalator, was just a visceral disgust at this person. 15:38.23 briandoleary Right. 15:42.30 Adam Haman And then the rest? Well, we'll just fill in the blanks afterwards. And maybe that works when you can string two sentences together, but it sure doesn't work when you can't. 15:45.87 briandoleary Yeah. You mentioned the back and forth with the two and it's like, gosh, uh, not real, real, real great either. But there was one exchange where the moderators wanted them to talk about overdoses in people in particular. 16:07.81 Adam Haman Mm hmm. 16:09.62 briandoleary And so, since we had some -- I think it came off the heels of the border situation. Perhaps I can't remember exactly. but Trump said, "Oh, we're doing very well in addiction." Like, you know, it's just another one of these Trump things. And it's like, is that a good thing or a bad thing? 16:25.35 Adam Haman The best. 16:27.52 briandoleary All right. And then he says, then he says, "Oh, we bought this certain kind of dog." That, like, sniffs out addiction or drugs or whatever. It's unclear, but it's like he leaves things so vague. And it's such a weird brag that he has for all these different things. "I would do it so well in addiction, and we bought this certain kind of dog." So, he gets cut off, right? And then it goes to Biden, and Biden starts talking about fentanyl machines. Like, what the...? What are you talking about? "Oh, we've got these machines" and "We need those machines." 17:07.25 Adam Haman What was he talking about? 17:08.45 briandoleary So, it's fentanyl. Like, not that, you know, the pronunciation is great, but it, you called it fentanyl, fentanyl, "I kept hitting fentanyl." And he talked about these machines. Like, first I've heard of the fentanyl machines. I don't even know if they're a thing, but we need those machines. And he said it in a way that, say, he was 30 years younger, somewhere in our age bracket. He might have had some, you know, authority with that nonsense, but he doesn't. He's so -- like you say, doddering or whatever. And he does not. He does not have that. Even eight years ago, he had would have had some authority, even though it's nonsense, but not now. 17:52.83 Adam Haman I'm not worried. We've got a big addiction opioid overdose crisis and we have two leaders to choose from, apparently. 17:54.17 briandoleary Yeah. 18:01.48 Adam Haman Our adult overlords told us that, and one of them is going to solve this problem with imaginary machines and the other one with an imaginary dog. I'm not worried at all. I mean, really this debate was a clash of the titans. I mean, honestly, it was a debate for the ages. These are our, we don't just, you think we're not going to send our best and brightest and elevate them to the highest office in the land. These are the best we got. We're in great shape. 18:25.17 briandoleary See, yeah, they started talking about age. It was a little later. They said, "Mr. Biden, you're you'll be 86 at the end of the second term." He looks way older than that right now. I mean, I know some 86-year-olds that look fine and some people way younger that look way older, but he doesn't look good. 18:42.58 Adam Haman Yeah, it's not all the same. 18:48.87 briandoleary And Trump is three or four years younger than Biden, and, you know, he'd be 82 at the end of the term. Then Biden, he talked about, like, some other thing. Like "Middle East chips" when he was talking about computer chips from China, and he talked about Middle East chips. And it's like, "No, you're already there. You're already cognitively well past the century mark, so let's just stop there. 19:17.11 Adam Haman I mean, maybe it doesn't matter who's in charge, or who's ostensibly in charge. They're all Zaphod Beebelbrox from Douglas Adams's The Hitchhiker's Guide. It's just a distraction, the guy in the suit at the podium. He's not running the show. Come on. 19:30.53 briandoleary The answer is 42. 19:30.33 Adam Haman The civil service laughs at the presidency. 19:33.90 briandoleary the answer is 42. 19:34.78 Adam Haman The answer is always 42. Are you ready to pivot towards the "high-larious" reaction to the debate? 19:42.80 briandoleary A little bit. Yeah. And I didn't -- I didn't actually go down that road too much. I saw a little bit of it, but I'm willing to dive in because I'm interested in what some people might say. 19:52.87 Adam Haman Well, let's. I was aghast, because what I expected was that, I mean, I just left it on CNN, you know, to see how they spun the thing. 20:02.41 briandoleary Okay. 20:04.10 Adam Haman Because I'm lazy and the remote control was out of reach, and my bowl of popcorn... 20:07.64 briandoleary It was on all the other channels. 20:08.93 Adam Haman No, I'm sure -- oh, was it? 20:10.38 briandoleary Yeah. 20:10.41 Adam Haman Okay. 20:11.26 briandoleary Yeah. 20:11.79 Adam Haman Well, I just watched it on CNN. So, I expected that with as wretched a performance as it was, most of the pundits would have said, "Yeah, it was about a tie." You know, maybe, maybe Biden didn't advance to the net and jump up and spike up every, you know, volleyball pass that was dished up, but it was about a tie. 20:23.40 briandoleary Okay. 20:32.36 Adam Haman No. Immediately it was full-on panic mode from all -- it looked like 20 people on the stage saying, "We need to take Joe Biden out and put someone else in. This is a catastrophe. 20:37.02 briandoleary Oh, really? Oh, wow. 20:45.96 Adam Haman I mean, full on panic. And I was shocked. I did not expect that. 20:49.79 briandoleary Yeah. I heard a little of that through the Twitter sphere, I guess you'd call it. But I didn't I didn't realize that came actually on CNN itself. 20:59.41 Adam Haman Immediately. I mean, it was, it was amazing and it reminded me. 21:01.42 briandoleary Wow. 21:07.28 Adam Haman You remember back, folks who have been listening to our show for a while, back on episode nine, I talked about how our beliefs literally affect our perceptions, at least on the margins, you know, with little things, those auditory tricks, those those visual tricks. 21:17.64 briandoleary Mm hmm. Right. 21:24.45 Adam Haman And I think one of the biggest belief systems that influences how we perceive things is our ideological, you know, sense of self or what whatever. And I think these people have been lying to themselves about Joe Biden's ability, you know, since before he was elected because it was an issue then, right? And if he's your guy, you're just going to say, that's ridiculous. He's fine. Nothing's wrong. You guys are distorting the videos. 21:47.81 briandoleary yeah 21:49.26 Adam Haman You're making your little jokes, but he's fine. I think what happened here. You remember that analogy I made or that experiment I talked about where the scientists would show people in just flashes of a second, an image of a card from a deck of cards and some of them were non-standard. 21:56.19 briandoleary Yeah. Mm-hmm. 22:03.94 briandoleary The cards, the cards. Yeah. 22:06.42 Adam Haman You'd get the red deuce of clubs, that sort of thing. 22:07.35 briandoleary Sure. 22:10.26 briandoleary Right. 22:09.95 Adam Haman And if you slow down the the amount of time that you show the thing or you speed it up, so you see it for a longer period of time, eventually Your brain will get yourself out of that framework and go, Oh, I'm not looking at a standard deck. I'm seeing something different. And I think that's what this debate was for that panel of 20 some shocked, left leaning talking heads. I think this was them finally seeing past their own cognitive dissonance on the fact that Joe Biden is a walking corpse who Eddie probably has been for a long time. 22:42.38 briandoleary Yeah. And I don't quite get what they weren't, what they weren't seeing in the last at least maybe four, four years, but certainly the last two. 22:48.45 Adam Haman I need to, but it just goes to show. 22:54.63 Adam Haman You can talk yourself into anything, man. 22:55.02 briandoleary Uh, I guess so. 22:57.02 Adam Haman If you're on record, if you've got your ego tied into things, you said that he's just fine. Well, then you're not going to see everybody falls a little bit when they try to go up the stairs and you know, he confused his sister and his wife, but you know, it could have been anything. You just talk yourself into it. 23:13.70 briandoleary Yeah. Yeah. Like I said at the beginning, he can't walk and he can't speak. And they said, uh, I was, I had it recorded on Fox news or that was one of the things that got recorded. Cause I said, record the debate. And so Fox news had it and it goes immediately. I thought the whole thing was going to last two hours. It lasted way shorter than that. So they went right into the coverage and then whatever their show after that. 23:36.38 Adam Haman Yeah. 23:40.78 briandoleary So I didn't see after that, but. Uh, immediately Brett Baier says, Oh, we just got word that Biden's camp said Biden has a cold. We didn't know that going into the head of time. And it's like, I guess I could see. Yeah. I mean, cold. I mean, three years ago, they would have called it COVID and called off the entire debate at all. So yeah, maybe he has a cold or COVID or whatever, and he's not feeling too good, but okay. 24:09.78 Adam Haman Does, uh, does a cold give you a concussion such that you can't speak or talk or think, I mean, 24:10.98 briandoleary Okay. 24:16.62 briandoleary Right. Yeah. And he didn't see, you know, he didn't seem any more nasally or anything. It was just like, all right, well, did he not have rest? He should have, he could have canceled. He's done it before. Trump did it before for crying out loud. 24:29.69 Adam Haman Hasn't he been prepping for this debate for a week? 24:33.39 briandoleary I think they said 10, 10 days, eight or 10 days. 24:33.31 Adam Haman Like doing nothing else? 24:35.88 briandoleary He was at camp David just. 24:36.60 Adam Haman Up at Camp David. Yeah. He's been prepping for this and I assume adjusting his sleep schedule and adjusting his medication schedule, which I'm... 24:44.55 briandoleary I think there was a drug test that they agreed to. I'm not entirely sure if that was real, but Trump said that he wanted a drug test. 24:52.56 Adam Haman and know he demanded it, but I don't think it was agreed upon or I would have heard, I think i would we would have heard more about that. 24:55.65 briandoleary Okay. I think so too, but, Yeah. What was, uh, compared to the state of the union, which I didn't watch the whole thing, but Biden was on top of it for that compared to last night. And you would have thought that it would have been more important for him to be if they were to choose one way or another, he'd be more important for him to be on top of it. Mono a mono, but. 25:22.80 Adam Haman Well, there's two things that could be going on there. 25:25.78 briandoleary OK. 25:26.34 Adam Haman One could just be that it's hard to finesse these things, you know, you get what you get. 25:30.12 briandoleary Natural. 25:31.28 Adam Haman And another could be the fact that we all sort of know if we know anybody who's gotten old and, you know, started to deteriorate when these things happen, that it goes pretty quick. Maybe he's just that much worse since the state of the union. 25:43.13 briandoleary Hmm. 25:46.13 briandoleary That's possible, but he wasn't in real good shape before that. 25:48.23 Adam Haman No, no, he wasn't. 25:48.56 briandoleary So one step up, two steps back, as they say, perhaps. 25:51.18 Adam Haman But yeah, I don't think it's linear. It's not geometric exactly, but I don't think it's linear. 25:55.13 briandoleary or yeah not linear. Yeah, right. 25:57.90 Adam Haman and 25:58.73 briandoleary Yeah. 26:00.22 Adam Haman So do you think, I mean, it's funny, on an episode of Haman Nature that I've recorded, but hasn't come out yet. 26:08.27 briandoleary Hmm. 26:08.12 Adam Haman One of my outlandish predictions for the rest of the year was that either Trump or Biden, or maybe both wouldn't show up on your ballot in November. Well, it looks like it's not going to be Biden. I mean, the DNC is panicked. Do you, so what do you think they're going to do? Do you have a. 26:24.18 briandoleary I was trying to watch a little bit of the stuff when they were talking about the mechanics of all how all that worked. The Democratic Party screwed if they don't put Biden there. There's no way that anybody. yeah 26:36.48 Adam Haman power How are they not screwed no matter what they do? 26:39.55 briandoleary Well, I think and there's enough people like around the 50-50 part that Biden still stands a chance. and Some of these states, you know, I don't know the polling after last night, but some of these states, the polling so a lot of the polling suggests that Biden's going to win the election anyway before last night. Now, if they take Biden off and put Kamala Harris in, They could, because that's pretty much what they have to do to save face and save reputation because she's next in line. 27:13.12 briandoleary People actually hate her. People don't care for Biden. People actually hate her. 27:15.70 Adam Haman But that's the thing. It's what June, Trump has until November, assuming they keep Biden in Trump has until November to say the person you're really voting for, for the next four years is obviously Kamala Harris. 27:29.27 briandoleary It is. 27:28.99 Adam Haman So the fact that she's most universally hated woman on the planet is not named Hillary Clinton. 27:33.66 briandoleary and 27:34.54 Adam Haman It doesn't matter whether they pull him or not. 27:35.21 briandoleary Yeah. 27:36.38 Adam Haman If she's still there, everyone is going to think there's going to be yelled at. You are voting for Kamala. 27:41.58 briandoleary And he hasn't even gone down that road. 27:42.00 Adam Haman If you vote for Biden. 27:44.93 Adam Haman So I think they'd have to, I think they're going to pull in with something just completely different. Someone completely new. 28:08.14 briandoleary So, the most universally most hated person, you know, universally hated other than Hillary Clinton? 28:16.31 Adam Haman Yes, that's my claim. And, uh, so I think whether they, uh, I think leaving Biden in is the exact same thing as pulling her for Kamala. 28:19.65 briandoleary Pretty accurate. 28:26.43 Adam Haman Everybody knows they're going to be voting for Kamala Harris, not Biden for the next four years. 28:30.53 briandoleary You think so? 28:30.45 Adam Haman So I think. 28:31.61 briandoleary You think it's a conscious known thing that the the average Democrat knows they're voting for Kamala Harris, not truth. 28:38.11 Adam Haman If they ever hear a single Trump ad, they'll know it. 28:40.82 briandoleary Okay. 28:40.81 Adam Haman I mean, what else would you say if you were Trump? Obviously this man can't serve a month, let alone a term. So you're voting for the VP to be, to be president. 28:51.25 briandoleary Yeah. 28:51.10 Adam Haman Well, I think the DNC knows that. And I think they're going to take a Hail Mary with either your wretched governor there in California or somebody who I'm not thinking of yet. maybe Hillary Clinton herself. I don't know. She is a demon. 29:04.69 briandoleary Yeah. 29:05.30 Adam Haman Demons don't like to go away. 29:06.92 briandoleary I mean, as a like the 11th hour replacement for Biden or Harris or both new ticket altogether. 29:13.69 Adam Haman A brand new ticket. I mean, they can do it. 29:17.26 briandoleary Yeah. 29:17.93 Adam Haman it's It's their own little private club, the DNC. 29:18.42 briandoleary Right. 29:19.97 Adam Haman They can do anything they want. 29:21.05 briandoleary it They don't have that convention for another month or two, right? 29:24.21 Adam Haman August, maybe? 29:25.77 briandoleary Yeah. Yeah. You guys jumped the gun a bit. 29:31.22 Adam Haman Yeah, I mean, I guess they had a problem. 29:35.23 Adam Haman I mean, the interests involved, you know, the military industrial complex and all the people who have attached themselves onto it, you know, the pharmaceutical company, all the unions, just all these corrupt entities, oil and gas, uh, whatever Halliburton does, you know, the the whole corrupt mess. They have attached themselves to this Biden thing and it just. It boggles my brain to think they don't have a plan B already thought out. I can't believe they're actually scrambling. I've been saying for a long time that Nikki Haley, who looks like the mouthpiece for the regime as I've ever seen, I think that was their pick on the Republican side. And she's only suspended her campaign. She hasn't canceled it. I thought they were going to try and off Trump and shove her in there. So, maybe they have that as a, as their back pocket plan. If they can't figure out the, you know, the Biden ticket. but it looks bad. 30:28.23 briandoleary Yeah. Yeah, that's bad. And then we have, I mean, let's not completely dismiss the rest of the candidates, but you have Robert Kennedy Jr. who's still Hanging around and at least in some states or a lot of states and then you have your. 30:50.04 Adam Haman You know, he, uh, he recorded himself answering the debate questions. I think he live stream streamed it. 30:54.75 briandoleary Is that right? 30:55.53 Adam Haman So I'll have to go back and check that out. 30:56.28 briandoleary Okay. 30:57.83 Adam Haman But boy, can you imagine him being on the stage with those two idiots, even with his gravelly voice. 31:01.97 briandoleary No. 31:03.67 Adam Haman And, uh, I mean, he would have just beat the hell out of those two. 31:07.60 briandoleary Uh, yeah, maybe the voice. 31:08.85 Adam Haman I think, or maybe Trump would have come alive and fought back or something. 31:12.31 briandoleary Yeah, and the voice, the voice alone, although it has improved in recent years, the voice alone is more than a bit off putting for true. 31:13.08 Adam Haman I don't know. 31:20.05 Adam Haman Yeah, but if you don't have to talk over anybody, you know, if, if interjections aren't allowed, he comes through loud and clear, you know, when he comes across as presidential. Yeah. 31:29.70 briandoleary Yeah. 31:31.03 Adam Haman He's not my cup. 31:31.40 briandoleary And the Chase, the Chase Oliver fellow, who I know you've, uh, mentioned a little bit your writings and podcasts and stuff. And I know you were there for his coronation. 31:43.45 Adam Haman I think he's going to probably do the worst that any libertarian candidate has done in my time. Because of, yeah, yeah, because of Bobby jr. Specifically, it's, it's the Ross Perot effect, but I did find it some somewhat interesting in a disturbing way that the, when the talking heads again, and that after show for on CNN, when they were talking about third party people, they mentioned Robert F. Kennedy jr. and Jill Stein and Cornell West. Didn't even mention the libertarian candidate. 32:14.39 briandoleary All right. 32:17.72 briandoleary Yeah. 32:18.86 Adam Haman Oh dear. 32:19.34 briandoleary Well, I'd be interested to see if he pulls, uh, better than, you know, there's, there's some hardcore, not they're more than libertarian, but there's hardcore green party people, but they'll only vote green party ticket. Libertarian party people will often not vote for a guy like Chase Oliver, say if he's just a total clown show. I mean, the what the Bill Weld that whole gosh, I mean, what? 32:45.96 Adam Haman Well, we are making the argument that if you are a left-leaning person, Chase Oliver is a much better candidate than Joe Biden, which is true, which is true. 32:56.20 briandoleary That's that's a good point. 32:58.53 Adam Haman So if you want to vote something like your principles, you know, Chase Oliver's is a good vote better than Jill Stein, I would argue. 32:59.11 briandoleary Yeah. 33:06.01 briandoleary Yeah. 33:09.63 Adam Haman and I'm not, court, 33:09.72 briandoleary Yeah, she seems to, yeah, she comes around to every four years or has been for the last century. 33:14.58 Adam Haman Has been. Yeah, I don't know much about her. 33:17.84 briandoleary I don't know. 33:18.14 Adam Haman I know Cornel West is hilarious. He showed up at the California Libertarian Party convention and got on a panel with Jacob Hornberger. and who was the other libertarian candidate? I can't remember. And, uh, he's hilarious. pure socialist. I would don't want him anywhere near control of the levers of power, but he's a, he's a strongly anti-war? Yay, Cornell. A socialist? Boo, Cornell. 33:38.22 briandoleary Mm hmm. 33:44.46 Adam Haman So. 33:46.76 briandoleary Yeah, other than other than all this reaction. Where like we're going, I mean, is there going to be another debate? I don't I haven't heard. I would kind of doubt it. 33:58.62 Adam Haman mean I can't imagine not with not with Biden. 34:02.13 briandoleary Even though I worked hate the word kind of. 34:04.68 Adam Haman Yes, you do. 34:05.64 briandoleary Right. 34:05.84 Adam Haman I'll forgive you. I don't think Biden's team will allow it. I don't think Trump needs it. I think if we see another debate, it will be a different pairing. 34:12.44 briandoleary I agree. 34:17.09 briandoleary Yeah. And we'll see what happens with, uh, what was not addressed at all the in this conversation or any of the coverage I saw other than what one thing Joe Biden said was Trump's illegal situation. I mean, they're going to, they're going to hammer that over and over the, you know, convicted felon, convicted felon, convicted felon, but it like didn't look to bother Trump all that much. Cause he knows it was a, Largely just got railroaded. 34:44.14 Adam Haman It's a sham, yeah. It's political activism via the Department of Justice or these state DAs. I gotta assume that most of the country sees that. Even if you hate Trump, can't you see how much of a joke this is? 34:56.38 briandoleary i I agree. No, yeah. And I think that's what's come out in the last several weeks anyway, that exact sentiment. But the other hand they part of it is that we don't know if Trump's going to be in the slammer literally or not by the time November comes around. So if he is physically incarcerated, then what happens? Can they pick another candidate or even like say in the sometime in the fall, the October surprise? 35:25.29 Adam Haman no no No, no, no, no, Eugene V. 35:26.58 briandoleary No. 35:27.89 Adam Haman Debs got legitimate votes from prison. 35:28.53 briandoleary Yeah, right. He did. 35:30.24 Adam Haman You just move Lincoln's desk right into whatever cell he's in. And that's the new oval office. 35:35.76 briandoleary Yeah. Well, a lot of ins, a lot of outs and the old, uh, you know, dooders had there a lot of strands. 35:43.68 Adam Haman What a crazy situation we find ourselves in just goofy. 35:47.21 briandoleary Yeah. And the fact is that is what are we, gosh, 250 years into the supposed nation's history that here we are, the, the pinnacle of a Republic pinnacle of a democracy. And we end up with a guy who might go to jail, who knows he's 34 times convicted in an election year. 36:10.03 Adam Haman Haha. 36:14.60 briandoleary And Joe Biden, you need not say anymore, just so totally pathetic candidate, pathetic man, pathetic politician, all of the above. And it's like, well, where are all the people? Where are all the leaders in this country that there that could rise and get knocked down, feet cut out from under them? And there might not be that many of them to begin with, but 36:42.45 Adam Haman Well, if the system is as corrupt as I and you, I think feel that it is, then those people should never go far. You know, even if they were, uh, first of all, I think you have to be a little bit sick and corrupt in your soul to want to be wielding power over your fellow man. 36:57.17 briandoleary Well, that's part of the problem. 36:59.16 Adam Haman But let's say, you know, Ron Paul style, someone who actually was good tried to advance. I think it was a miracle that Ron Paul got as high as he did. Because the, the machine, the regime, the corrupt alignment of interests that don't want to see any honesty in Washington. Well, they'll just push you down. They'll do everything they can. Look at the dirty tricks. The DNC did to Bernie Sanders and all he was, was a populist socialist, but they had to cheat and scheme to, because he was too popular. 37:24.78 briandoleary Yeah. Right. 37:30.16 Adam Haman They, they couldn't, they couldn't. Let him have the primary. So I think the, this is a corrupt thing ruled by corrupt people. And so of course we should see corrupt people at the top. 37:43.56 briandoleary Famous inventor, American inventor and many other things, Buckminster Fuller says, you never change things by fighting the existing reality to change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. And there's a lot of wisdom there and he's talking. 38:01.95 Adam Haman Agreed. 38:03.14 briandoleary I mean, he, who knows? I don't know exactly what he was talking about. There could be talking about anything. So always it comes up. It's, it's specific enough and vague enough that could come up. But in our case, in our specific case, and what we're, uh, talking about here, I think that this, you know, fighting the existing model, uh, this two party head of some oppressive government. Uh, you don't fight that head on. 38:34.27 briandoleary You're never going to win, but you, your, your other systems that not only they don't challenge that that can stay in place. 38:34.29 Adam Haman No, I think I think you're exactly right what we need to do. Yeah. 38:42.53 briandoleary See, I think this is the problem that most people who want to fight the government myself included for many years. We're just like, but we're trying to go head to head with these guys and you can't do it. 38:53.02 Adam Haman No, no, no. It's a two part pronged structure. The first one you alluded to, we need to nurture and grow the private institutions that we, that we talk about it a lot to do the things that we are trained to rely on government for. 39:03.92 briandoleary Yeah, we talk about that a lot on this channel. 39:10.24 Adam Haman And then you don't, you don't go heads up against the regime. That is not appropriate or practical. You can't win. What we should do is what we've just spent 40 minutes doing, which is mock the regime. 39:22.59 briandoleary Correct. 39:23.22 Adam Haman diminish their luster in the eyes of the populace such that the populace no longer gives them any reverence. 39:31.27 briandoleary Yeah, I agree. One, and would you mind if I had told you with one more quote? 39:35.71 Adam Haman No, not at all. 39:42.74 briandoleary From John Dickinson, one of the founding fathers, August 13th, 1787, while in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He says, "Experience must be our only guide. Reason may mislead us." 39:50.00 Adam Haman Hmm. 39:50.75 briandoleary Very reasonable people. However, look what happened in the past. We need to judge our future from there. 39:55.91 Adam Haman No, there's a, there's a lot of wisdom there. And, uh, the one part of conservatism, the one part about conservatism that I like, which you hardly ever see in conservative politicians, is a reverence for the thing that got us here. You know, the culture that got us here. Reason will make you tear down everything about your civilization and erect something brand new. Uh, you know, Bolshevik style, Soviet style, and, and the good part of conservatism, has a little wisdom to go, no, let's maybe not do that. Maybe, maybe those fences were put up for a reason. 40:38.14 briandoleary yeah we can go on and on about that. But I think we'll, we'll leave it there for this episode of Natural Order Podcast. Go to BrianDOleary.com for more of this. Uh, from my end, sign up for my email newsletter. and hamannature.com or hamannature.substack dot.com. You can catch all his stuff there. He's producing three episodes a week usually. 41:02.97 Adam Haman it's It's not quite that much, but yes, folks, please go to HamanNature.substack.com. And my other show Haman Nature is on YouTube, but just search "Haman Nature" or go to my substack and all the links are there. And you can catch me on Twitter slash X "@rerazer". And Brian. 41:27.11 briandoleary Yeah, you got me right here. I think @briandoleary. you can find me right if you, if you're watching this on video, but, uh, BrianDOLeary on the X Twitter, as I call it now, uh, still, still evolving, but, uh, any last words, Adam, him before we run? 41:28.38 Adam Haman Oh yeah. 41:38.43 Adam Haman Next Twitter, that's right. 41:44.71 briandoleary I know. 41:44.88 Adam Haman Only to say that it was nice to get back and settle with your partner. And this was fun. And the debate was awesome. F versus D plus. Very nice. 41:54.84 briandoleary Yeah. Yeah. Amazing a D plus wins, but it does. All right, folks, we'll talk to you next time. Thanks. Bye.