1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,250 Daniel Rowles: Welcome back to the Digital Marketing Podcast, brought 2 00:00:02,250 --> 00:00:03,780 to you by target internet.com. 3 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:07,200 My name's Daniel Rolls, and in this episode we are talking about 4 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:08,760 dealing with exponential change. 5 00:00:17,096 --> 00:00:20,126 So we all know that AI is driving levels of change that we've never 6 00:00:20,126 --> 00:00:23,706 really dealt with before, and it's making everyone struggle to keep 7 00:00:23,706 --> 00:00:26,196 up to date with things even worse than we've ever had in marketing. 8 00:00:26,946 --> 00:00:30,636 So I once to explore in this episode with the help of Jeff Tuff, who is 9 00:00:30,636 --> 00:00:34,686 consulting principal at Deloitte and author of numerous books, including his 10 00:00:34,686 --> 00:00:38,981 latest hone on how we can practically deal with this level of change. 11 00:00:40,371 --> 00:00:44,841 Now, as you might be aware, I head up the Digital Transformation Strategy program 12 00:00:44,841 --> 00:00:49,221 at Imperial College, but one of the challenges we often face as marketers, 13 00:00:49,221 --> 00:00:54,171 leaders, or entrepreneurs is that we can't really institute a major change project. 14 00:00:54,801 --> 00:00:57,141 We might also feel like it's not particularly the solution. 15 00:00:57,141 --> 00:01:02,271 Anyway, so for that reason, Jeff's new book Hone How Purposeful Leaders Defy 16 00:01:02,271 --> 00:01:07,071 Drift, which he co-wrote with Steven Goldberg, deloitte's sustainability 17 00:01:07,071 --> 00:01:11,421 business lead in the US was so interesting as it explores how we 18 00:01:11,421 --> 00:01:16,971 build systems and processes into our organizations, both large and small. 19 00:01:16,971 --> 00:01:20,451 And it really does apply to all organizations how we can 20 00:01:20,451 --> 00:01:22,761 help deal with ongoing change. 21 00:01:23,361 --> 00:01:26,151 And I thought there's some real nuggets in here that will help us. 22 00:01:26,661 --> 00:01:31,131 Hopefully baking innovation, baking change into what we're doing every 23 00:01:31,131 --> 00:01:36,681 day, meaning that hopefully this level of exponential change won't disrupt 24 00:01:36,681 --> 00:01:42,111 us because actually as you hear from the book, how do we go through and 25 00:01:42,111 --> 00:01:43,851 deal with this on an ongoing basis? 26 00:01:44,391 --> 00:01:46,401 So over to the interview. 27 00:01:48,852 --> 00:01:50,052 So I'm here with Jeff. 28 00:01:50,052 --> 00:01:53,142 So Jeff, I mean, I think it's a particularly relevant time, but why 29 00:01:53,142 --> 00:01:56,172 does hone feel especially relevant for things right now, do you think? 30 00:01:56,689 --> 00:01:57,169 Geoff Tuff: Hone. 31 00:01:57,269 --> 00:02:00,419 It originated when Steve and I first started talking about the book 32 00:02:00,469 --> 00:02:04,309 there lots of different ways we were conceiving of it, but one, impetus 33 00:02:04,309 --> 00:02:07,219 for the book is we wanted it to be the antidote to transformation. 34 00:02:07,339 --> 00:02:11,439 And so I, you know, if I had to characterize what I hear from just 35 00:02:11,439 --> 00:02:13,959 about every single client we serve these days or all of the account teams 36 00:02:13,959 --> 00:02:17,309 who serve our clients, it's that their clients need to go and un undergo a 37 00:02:17,309 --> 00:02:19,229 transformation for whatever reason. 38 00:02:19,739 --> 00:02:22,499 Most of the time, the reason is because they're being impacted 39 00:02:22,499 --> 00:02:25,919 by some set of forces, either internal or external, that are. 40 00:02:26,279 --> 00:02:28,469 More powerful than anything they've seen before. 41 00:02:28,469 --> 00:02:31,979 I've done a lot of thinking and writing and talking about the power of exponential 42 00:02:31,979 --> 00:02:35,909 change and the reality that we are shifting and have been shifting over the 43 00:02:35,909 --> 00:02:38,909 course of the last decade from a world that's dominated by linear change to 44 00:02:38,909 --> 00:02:40,769 one, dominated by exponential change. 45 00:02:41,099 --> 00:02:45,549 When exponential change hits your company or your markets things get weirded really 46 00:02:45,549 --> 00:02:49,454 quickly and it makes it and it's easy to feel as though you're off track. 47 00:02:49,514 --> 00:02:52,094 And so the number one exponential out there right 48 00:02:52,094 --> 00:02:53,774 now, not hard to see it, is ai. 49 00:02:53,929 --> 00:02:57,019 It is everywhere right now, and it's impacting every facet of business. 50 00:02:57,529 --> 00:03:01,559 When weird things happen and it, and you're given cause to believe that 51 00:03:01,559 --> 00:03:04,709 you're off track, that's when the brain immediately says, well, we need to 52 00:03:04,709 --> 00:03:06,659 go through a massive wholesale shift. 53 00:03:06,659 --> 00:03:07,859 We need to transform. 54 00:03:07,859 --> 00:03:11,099 We need to either get back on track or track, or we need to fundamentally 55 00:03:11,099 --> 00:03:12,509 change the way we're doing things. 56 00:03:12,989 --> 00:03:15,899 That is an interesting way of thinking about it, but the reality is 57 00:03:15,899 --> 00:03:18,149 transformations fail almost all the time. 58 00:03:18,569 --> 00:03:22,529 Deloitte has some data that shows the transformations fail 70% of the time. 59 00:03:22,529 --> 00:03:24,359 Anecdotally, I'd say it's more often than that. 60 00:03:24,419 --> 00:03:25,319 They're costly. 61 00:03:25,349 --> 00:03:28,589 People lose their jobs over them because they, they don't really end up working. 62 00:03:29,069 --> 00:03:31,919 And Steve and I set out to write something and introduce a body of 63 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,619 research to the world that said, you know, there is actually an alternative. 64 00:03:34,889 --> 00:03:38,489 You don't always have to wait until things are. 65 00:03:38,789 --> 00:03:41,069 Too far off track to move you can hone instead. 66 00:03:41,069 --> 00:03:42,269 And that's really what the book is about. 67 00:03:42,269 --> 00:03:46,349 And I'd say increasingly as we're impacted by exponential change, which we will 68 00:03:46,349 --> 00:03:48,449 be hone will become even more relevant. 69 00:03:49,174 --> 00:03:51,694 Daniel Rowles: To that point, I watched another interview you did with Brain Barn. 70 00:03:51,694 --> 00:03:56,344 It was talking about innovation and you'd kind of made the point that innovation was 71 00:03:56,344 --> 00:03:57,934 always seen as important but not urgent. 72 00:03:57,934 --> 00:04:00,364 And you gave this example of, you know, someone's going through some quarterly 73 00:04:00,364 --> 00:04:03,094 targets and they said, well, it's really interesting what you said, but can 74 00:04:03,094 --> 00:04:04,654 we kind of come back to that as well? 75 00:04:04,954 --> 00:04:07,444 And I kind of connected those two things massively because that 76 00:04:07,444 --> 00:04:10,964 idea of kind of baking innovation in is kind of part of this. 77 00:04:10,964 --> 00:04:12,164 So could you speak to that a little bit? 78 00:04:13,274 --> 00:04:16,294 Geoff Tuff: That comment from brain Bar, I think was born of the same realization 79 00:04:16,294 --> 00:04:18,064 of the world that we're living in today. 80 00:04:18,484 --> 00:04:22,984 You know, one of the things that we like to talk about is that we have undergone 81 00:04:22,984 --> 00:04:26,674 a shift where we all have grown up. 82 00:04:26,674 --> 00:04:30,364 And when I say we all I'm saying, those of us that are reasonably senior in 83 00:04:30,364 --> 00:04:33,634 our organizations who have been around the business world for 20, 30 years, 84 00:04:34,024 --> 00:04:36,094 we grew up in organizations where. 85 00:04:37,264 --> 00:04:42,234 While it may not have been named out loud, the general accepted way of 86 00:04:42,234 --> 00:04:47,964 thinking, the conventional wisdom was that status quo is safe, change is risky. 87 00:04:48,114 --> 00:04:48,444 Okay. 88 00:04:48,444 --> 00:04:51,594 If we keep on doing what we're doing and we don't rock the boat 89 00:04:51,594 --> 00:04:52,674 too much, we're gonna be okay. 90 00:04:52,674 --> 00:04:56,284 But if we really try to shake things up and do things do things differently 91 00:04:56,314 --> 00:05:00,304 that, that may actually expose us to risk and that makes us feel uncomfortable 92 00:05:00,304 --> 00:05:02,374 and that ultimately is, I think why. 93 00:05:03,409 --> 00:05:05,269 Innovation often does feel important. 94 00:05:05,269 --> 00:05:08,599 It's interesting, but not urgent because it's actually, it's innovation 95 00:05:08,599 --> 00:05:09,919 does threaten the status quo. 96 00:05:09,919 --> 00:05:13,099 And we as human beings have a status quo bias. 97 00:05:13,099 --> 00:05:14,179 We are loss averse. 98 00:05:14,389 --> 00:05:15,769 There's nothing we can do to counteract it. 99 00:05:15,769 --> 00:05:16,909 It's just a reality. 100 00:05:16,909 --> 00:05:19,399 And, you know, if we innovate, we're changing something 101 00:05:19,399 --> 00:05:20,359 and that feels threatening. 102 00:05:20,809 --> 00:05:23,239 But we have shifted to a different type of world. 103 00:05:23,359 --> 00:05:27,889 And interestingly in, in the work that Steve and I do with our clients, it's 104 00:05:27,889 --> 00:05:30,199 now way more frequently the case that. 105 00:05:30,419 --> 00:05:35,369 Status quo and accepting the status quo is actually pretty risky and change 106 00:05:35,369 --> 00:05:36,629 is actually the safe thing to do. 107 00:05:36,659 --> 00:05:41,379 But you know, the key is to change in the right ways and in, in hone and 108 00:05:41,379 --> 00:05:44,609 actually a lot of the writing that we've done over time, we talk about 109 00:05:44,639 --> 00:05:47,339 the right way of approaching change versus the wrong way, which actually 110 00:05:47,339 --> 00:05:49,344 does sometimes expose you to risk. 111 00:05:50,584 --> 00:05:53,429 Daniel Rowles: So, so talk to us about this idea of Drift then, because why? 112 00:05:53,494 --> 00:05:55,114 Why is Drift such a big risk? 113 00:05:55,385 --> 00:05:57,675 riverside_geoff_tuff_raw-audio_digital_marketing p_0201-1: Drift as you I'm sure recognize as part 114 00:05:57,675 --> 00:06:02,715 of the subtitle to the book, I will blame myself for hauling, boating metaphors 115 00:06:02,715 --> 00:06:04,665 into just about everything we write. 116 00:06:04,725 --> 00:06:08,595 And again, as we were tossing around ideas for the book, I explained to 117 00:06:08,595 --> 00:06:11,525 Steve who has been kind enough to come out sailing with me on occasion, 118 00:06:11,525 --> 00:06:14,285 what it's like to go through. 119 00:06:14,650 --> 00:06:16,670 A planning a sale and executing a sale. 120 00:06:16,670 --> 00:06:20,090 And obviously this is a bit a bit artificial in, its in its 121 00:06:20,210 --> 00:06:24,030 exactness, but one version of what it looks like to go for sale is you. 122 00:06:24,875 --> 00:06:27,935 Hop on the boat, or before you hop on the boat, you have a destination in mind 123 00:06:28,145 --> 00:06:32,765 and you can either see a point on land or out on the horizon that you're aiming 124 00:06:32,765 --> 00:06:35,885 towards, or you have a set of coordinates that you're sailing towards and you have 125 00:06:35,885 --> 00:06:40,965 a plan in mind and you set off on the sail and inevitably as you are on that course. 126 00:06:41,875 --> 00:06:45,505 Wind impacts your course of travel waves impact it. 127 00:06:45,535 --> 00:06:49,765 Current does, tides do, and you're incrementally knocked 128 00:06:49,765 --> 00:06:50,875 off track here and there. 129 00:06:50,875 --> 00:06:55,075 But you actually have the ability to recognize when you're drifting, when 130 00:06:55,075 --> 00:06:58,195 you're off track, either you can see yourself drift away from the point on land 131 00:06:58,195 --> 00:07:01,015 you're aiming towards, or you have the machine machinery to tell you that you're 132 00:07:01,475 --> 00:07:02,795 no longer on track to the coordinates. 133 00:07:02,795 --> 00:07:05,515 And so you adjust course incrementally, you. 134 00:07:05,915 --> 00:07:07,055 Move the rudder a little bit. 135 00:07:07,085 --> 00:07:11,025 You trim the sails a little bit and you're generally able to to stay on the 136 00:07:11,025 --> 00:07:12,345 course that you set off for yourself. 137 00:07:12,465 --> 00:07:14,355 And obviously that this is very simplistic. 138 00:07:14,355 --> 00:07:17,235 There's times when you're going directly into the wind where you need to tack 139 00:07:17,235 --> 00:07:20,625 back and forth, but that, anyway it's a controllable path of travel. 140 00:07:21,540 --> 00:07:25,230 In business, unfortunately, there is no point on the horizon that you 141 00:07:25,230 --> 00:07:29,580 can keep in your gaze and there are no core coordinates that you can use 142 00:07:29,910 --> 00:07:31,740 to measure your course of travel. 143 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:36,540 And so what ends up happening is even the best leaders often will declare a desired 144 00:07:36,540 --> 00:07:39,920 outcome or to declare a goal they have or a vision they have for the company. 145 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:40,250 But. 146 00:07:40,550 --> 00:07:44,370 The reality of the day to day and handling what comes at them every 147 00:07:44,370 --> 00:07:47,490 single day, akin to the waves and the winds and the current and the tide. 148 00:07:47,850 --> 00:07:52,530 Things like new competitive entries or new technologies on the scene, or shifting 149 00:07:52,530 --> 00:07:55,560 regulations or some sort of talent crisis. 150 00:07:55,900 --> 00:07:59,020 What they need to do is react to that and solve those problems in the moment, 151 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,290 and they probably do all the right things to, to, or most of them do all the right 152 00:08:03,290 --> 00:08:05,660 things to tackle those day-to-day issues. 153 00:08:06,095 --> 00:08:09,425 What ends up happening is the management systems that they use to address those 154 00:08:09,425 --> 00:08:14,285 issues over time pile up on one another and they create this great encumbered. 155 00:08:14,285 --> 00:08:17,045 I'm now gonna extend the metaphor, probably unnecessarily this great 156 00:08:17,255 --> 00:08:19,865 encumbered ship moving through the water. 157 00:08:19,865 --> 00:08:23,315 There's nowhere, anywhere close to being on track to the desired, 158 00:08:23,345 --> 00:08:24,815 the original desired outcome. 159 00:08:25,175 --> 00:08:28,865 And it's when there is actually a E, either for a report to the board 160 00:08:28,865 --> 00:08:31,295 or some reason to actually pick up their heads and pay attention 161 00:08:31,295 --> 00:08:32,645 to where they are and realize it. 162 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,810 Wow, we're really no longer headed the direction we headed to. 163 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,770 That's where the necessity to transform or the desire to transform 164 00:08:39,770 --> 00:08:42,920 comes from because there's a recognition that something massive 165 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:44,600 has to happen to get back on track. 166 00:08:44,780 --> 00:08:50,480 And so that's the drift is what happens when organizations are no longer aligned 167 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,600 and headed towards their, what we call in the book, their elemental purpose, the 168 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,710 reason that they exist as an organization to their stakeholders here on earth. 169 00:08:58,420 --> 00:09:00,520 Daniel Rowles: So, so that's where the honing comes in, I'm assuming. 170 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,220 And then so what does it that kind of look like in context? 171 00:09:04,075 --> 00:09:06,455 Geoff Tuff: Yeah I've now plowed through so many metaphors. 172 00:09:06,455 --> 00:09:09,205 I feel like we're gonna be accused of using too of them 173 00:09:09,255 --> 00:09:09,765 Daniel Rowles: this is great. 174 00:09:09,765 --> 00:09:12,415 I mean, if you knew Kean, our co-host, he's obsessed with analogies 175 00:09:12,415 --> 00:09:14,785 and particularly sailing analogies 'cause he spent a lot of time at the 176 00:09:14,785 --> 00:09:16,200 UK Sailing this fits in 177 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:16,620 perfectly. 178 00:09:16,620 --> 00:09:17,130 Don't worry. 179 00:09:17,340 --> 00:09:18,480 riverside_geoff_tuff_raw-audio_digital_marketing p_0201-1: We should spend more time together. 180 00:09:19,020 --> 00:09:21,960 So, honing came from an interaction that Steve actually had. 181 00:09:22,530 --> 00:09:24,320 With a chef named Flannery. 182 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:26,510 One of the things we did in this book, because we always like to 183 00:09:26,510 --> 00:09:30,440 try to bring the business ideas we have to life in accessible ways. 184 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,900 We profiled four different artisans. 185 00:09:32,900 --> 00:09:35,420 So Flannery was, is a chef that we spoke to. 186 00:09:35,420 --> 00:09:37,790 We spoke to Sam Pollard, who's a documentary filmmaker. 187 00:09:37,790 --> 00:09:40,780 We spoke to Anna Vanderwal, who's a very well known. 188 00:09:41,525 --> 00:09:43,925 Boating photographer, actually yachting photographer. 189 00:09:43,925 --> 00:09:46,225 And then we spoke to a good old fashioned rock band from 190 00:09:46,225 --> 00:09:47,545 Canada called Our Lady Peace. 191 00:09:47,545 --> 00:09:51,115 We spoke to the lead singer in the bass, and Flannery was the, was one 192 00:09:51,115 --> 00:09:52,315 of the artisans that we spoke to. 193 00:09:53,310 --> 00:09:55,080 Steve, this was actually nothing to do with the book. 194 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,980 Steve was just with her when she was preparing to cook a meal at some point, 195 00:09:58,980 --> 00:10:02,310 and she pulled out her, well, we never really knew the technical term for 196 00:10:02,310 --> 00:10:03,540 all these things, but the honing rod. 197 00:10:03,540 --> 00:10:06,480 And she started, you know, going away at it with her knife. 198 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:10,080 And Steve said to Flannery, you know, Flannery I see you do this 199 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:11,160 almost every single time you cook. 200 00:10:11,190 --> 00:10:14,160 Why do you have to sharpen your knives every single time you cook? 201 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,020 And she said, actually, Steve, you've got it wrong. 202 00:10:16,455 --> 00:10:19,305 I'm not sharpening the knife, I'm honing the knife. 203 00:10:19,725 --> 00:10:23,235 And there is a fundamental difference because when you sharpen a knife, you are 204 00:10:23,235 --> 00:10:25,635 actually removing steel from the blade. 205 00:10:25,695 --> 00:10:30,105 It's an act of destruction and you are revealing a sharp edge underneath it. 206 00:10:30,105 --> 00:10:30,195 But. 207 00:10:31,145 --> 00:10:35,465 Ultimately what you're doing is removing steel from the blade and that over time 208 00:10:35,495 --> 00:10:37,025 it, you can't do that indefinitely. 209 00:10:37,025 --> 00:10:40,985 The knife becomes brittle, it gets worn down it breaks, and too much 210 00:10:40,985 --> 00:10:42,665 sharpening is bad for the knife. 211 00:10:43,055 --> 00:10:45,755 So instead, what we do as chefs most of the time is we hone our 212 00:10:45,755 --> 00:10:48,455 knives before we cook and hone is different because we're not actually 213 00:10:48,455 --> 00:10:50,495 removing steel from the blade. 214 00:10:50,495 --> 00:10:52,505 What we're doing is we're realigning all those. 215 00:10:53,285 --> 00:10:55,235 I think she called them snaggy teeth. 216 00:10:55,265 --> 00:10:58,805 Things that the bit, the bits of metal that microscopically have kind of come 217 00:10:58,805 --> 00:11:03,875 outta line and we're bringing them back together into an edge that will perform 218 00:11:03,875 --> 00:11:07,725 as we need the knife to perform, to be safe and to, you know, to do all 219 00:11:07,725 --> 00:11:09,165 the things we need to do as chefs. 220 00:11:09,195 --> 00:11:12,825 And it was an interesting moment when Steve and I then talked about 221 00:11:12,825 --> 00:11:16,155 that experience he had because it's, to us, it's a very similar. 222 00:11:16,735 --> 00:11:21,590 Temptation that companies have or if you equate sharpening to transforming, 223 00:11:22,070 --> 00:11:25,190 and yes, you may transform a company and if you're lucky enough to be one of the 224 00:11:25,190 --> 00:11:30,690 few ones that are successful to actually to get it done right you may end up. 225 00:11:30,780 --> 00:11:34,140 In a good place with a sharp edge for some period of time, but there's 226 00:11:34,140 --> 00:11:35,760 only so often you can do that. 227 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:40,350 And instead, it's much better to pay attention day in, day out to honing 228 00:11:40,380 --> 00:11:42,930 your management systems, which is what, which are the tools of the 229 00:11:42,930 --> 00:11:46,895 trade of most senior executives in organizations to stay on track. 230 00:11:48,195 --> 00:11:48,675 Daniel Rowles: I love that. 231 00:11:48,675 --> 00:11:51,945 And so how do leaders think about honing their organizations then, 232 00:11:51,945 --> 00:11:53,295 and how does that look in context? 233 00:11:54,180 --> 00:11:55,980 riverside_geoff_tuff_raw-audio_digital_marketing p_0201-1: There is a theme through all of the 234 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,890 writing that Steve and I do that actually is kind of fundamental to how we think 235 00:11:58,890 --> 00:12:00,015 about business, and that is that. 236 00:12:01,140 --> 00:12:06,090 Change of whatever scale doesn't happen unless someone 237 00:12:06,090 --> 00:12:08,190 somewhere changes their behavior. 238 00:12:08,340 --> 00:12:13,540 So I don't care how dominated we are for by AI or technology, it is a fundamental 239 00:12:13,540 --> 00:12:17,260 reality that change doesn't happen unless there's a behavioral change somewhere 240 00:12:17,260 --> 00:12:19,090 in the value system of an organization. 241 00:12:19,090 --> 00:12:24,100 So we think about that as the kind of subatomic element of how businesses run. 242 00:12:24,755 --> 00:12:27,275 And so the purpose of management. 243 00:12:27,275 --> 00:12:29,825 The purpose of leadership ultimately, is to make sure. 244 00:12:30,580 --> 00:12:36,370 That one, especially at senior levels of the organization, is exerting the right 245 00:12:36,370 --> 00:12:40,450 type of control to drive the right types of behaviors to achieve the outcomes 246 00:12:40,450 --> 00:12:44,360 that organization needs to achieve, to stay profitable or for the mission of the 247 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,440 moment whatever the desired outcome is. 248 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:50,270 And the issue we've got, I think and one of the orthodoxies that Steve and I 249 00:12:50,270 --> 00:12:52,590 wanted to challenge in this book is that. 250 00:12:53,505 --> 00:12:57,960 Many senior leaders, and I'll just say for ease of reference now, CEOs, when 251 00:12:58,020 --> 00:13:03,150 many CEOs think it's their job to be the inspirational leader of an organization. 252 00:13:03,150 --> 00:13:06,430 So they're the ones who chart the course for the company. 253 00:13:06,430 --> 00:13:09,130 They're the ones who make the promises to the capital markets. 254 00:13:09,130 --> 00:13:12,740 They're the ones who declare the vision and set the mission statement and 255 00:13:12,740 --> 00:13:14,510 often they are the ones who approve. 256 00:13:15,005 --> 00:13:18,335 The markets that they play in and the products that they prioritize and the 257 00:13:18,335 --> 00:13:19,745 business models that they're going to use. 258 00:13:19,745 --> 00:13:23,165 All the things that kind of, that set the conditions for 259 00:13:23,165 --> 00:13:24,995 actually getting a strategy done. 260 00:13:25,505 --> 00:13:28,805 But then when it comes time to actually go and execute that strategy, they hand 261 00:13:28,805 --> 00:13:32,705 that off to someone else, usually lower down in the organization, and they ask 262 00:13:32,705 --> 00:13:37,055 for reports quarterly or semi-annually or what have you on how it's going. 263 00:13:37,485 --> 00:13:40,230 That unfortunately is the wrong use of power. 264 00:13:40,755 --> 00:13:44,615 And that's our core contention in in home because the things that 265 00:13:44,615 --> 00:13:46,505 a company has at its disposal. 266 00:13:46,875 --> 00:13:52,075 To hone, to drive the behaviors that ultimately are the things 267 00:13:52,075 --> 00:13:55,825 that affect change or that affect outcomes are management systems. 268 00:13:55,975 --> 00:13:59,245 So think and I'll now just turn that around and say by definition, a 269 00:13:59,245 --> 00:14:04,325 management system is anything within an organization, either formal or informal, 270 00:14:04,385 --> 00:14:06,065 that drives behavioral outcomes. 271 00:14:06,265 --> 00:14:09,475 So think of performance metrics. 272 00:14:09,865 --> 00:14:14,065 Think of budget allocation processes, think of declared decision rights. 273 00:14:14,335 --> 00:14:17,005 These were all things that ultimately guide behavior. 274 00:14:17,005 --> 00:14:20,285 But, and those are all those things I just named are formal management systems. 275 00:14:20,285 --> 00:14:24,925 They're informal ones as well, such as the types of questions that senior executives 276 00:14:24,925 --> 00:14:28,885 ask in meetings or the way you kind of interact with others in the hallway. 277 00:14:29,125 --> 00:14:31,015 Ultimately, there's a lot of things that. 278 00:14:31,745 --> 00:14:34,475 Our management systems that drive behavior that if you sum them all 279 00:14:34,475 --> 00:14:35,945 up, they're the company's culture. 280 00:14:35,945 --> 00:14:37,745 But that's a conversation for a different time. 281 00:14:38,225 --> 00:14:42,245 And what we believe should be happening to hone is that yes, 282 00:14:42,305 --> 00:14:44,465 senior executive CEOs should be. 283 00:14:45,155 --> 00:14:49,205 Setting the course and setting the vision for a company, but then they really need 284 00:14:49,205 --> 00:14:52,835 to get their hands dirty in executing through those management systems. 285 00:14:52,835 --> 00:14:56,855 So we, we spend a lot of time at home talking about the importance of CEOs, 286 00:14:56,855 --> 00:15:00,965 thinking of themselves as being chief system designers, so really understanding 287 00:15:01,575 --> 00:15:04,610 what behaviors they're trying to drive and designing the management systems 288 00:15:04,610 --> 00:15:06,050 that will create those outcomes. 289 00:15:06,230 --> 00:15:07,340 Not always on their own. 290 00:15:07,340 --> 00:15:08,630 Obviously they need to work with others. 291 00:15:08,630 --> 00:15:12,140 They can't do everything, but they need to have their fingers in. 292 00:15:12,545 --> 00:15:16,715 The details of how that work is being done, if ultimately they're gonna prevent 293 00:15:16,715 --> 00:15:18,125 the drift that we talked about before. 294 00:15:19,190 --> 00:15:19,910 Daniel Rowles: I love that idea. 295 00:15:19,910 --> 00:15:22,610 'cause I've spoken previous about the idea of digital transformation 296 00:15:22,610 --> 00:15:24,050 being about purposeful culture. 297 00:15:24,110 --> 00:15:27,560 IE not just the way we think do things around here, but like actually what can 298 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,210 we put in place to create that culture? 299 00:15:29,210 --> 00:15:31,220 And it relates back to those kind of management systems. 300 00:15:31,220 --> 00:15:34,580 So, I was just gonna add, there are some examples of leaders that 301 00:15:34,580 --> 00:15:35,900 are, have been good at doing this. 302 00:15:37,355 --> 00:15:40,730 riverside_geoff_tuff_raw-audio_digital_marketing p_0201-1: There are and I it feels a bit like 303 00:15:40,730 --> 00:15:44,410 an easy out for me to name the one I'm gonna name, but I'm gonna do it because 304 00:15:44,410 --> 00:15:47,470 I actually do genuinely believe in this and we write about it in the book. 305 00:15:47,470 --> 00:15:50,470 But Jeff Bezos and what he's been able to accomplish over the 306 00:15:50,470 --> 00:15:52,810 course of his time at Amazon. 307 00:15:52,810 --> 00:15:55,810 I mean, if you, if, and I don't happen to know the man and I 308 00:15:55,870 --> 00:15:56,920 read the same business press. 309 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:58,930 Everyone else does, but everything you read about. 310 00:15:59,455 --> 00:16:03,985 The processes that they use within Amazon to drive the types of outcomes that 311 00:16:03,985 --> 00:16:08,470 they want to suggest that he innately or maybe he thinks very similarly. 312 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:12,180 He innately knows that he needs to be in on the details of how the company runs. 313 00:16:12,180 --> 00:16:15,530 So, you know, the famous five page memo before. 314 00:16:15,875 --> 00:16:19,505 A meeting instead of having a lot of presentation slides, he set the tone. 315 00:16:19,505 --> 00:16:22,895 He didn't just set the tone, he made it a requirement that people write the 316 00:16:22,895 --> 00:16:26,675 summary memo of the purpose of the meeting and distribute it ahead of time so that 317 00:16:27,215 --> 00:16:30,275 when they come into the meeting and not everyone is faffing about listening 318 00:16:30,275 --> 00:16:33,185 to presentations and being bored and being on their phones, they're actually 319 00:16:33,185 --> 00:16:34,505 digging into the details immediately. 320 00:16:34,505 --> 00:16:36,865 And I'm sure I'm butchering that the purpose behind that. 321 00:16:36,865 --> 00:16:41,185 But that did a bunch of different things, both for the culture of the organization 322 00:16:41,185 --> 00:16:43,645 and for the way people behaved that. 323 00:16:43,925 --> 00:16:47,695 Led to, I think one of the reasons for success behind Amazon. 324 00:16:47,695 --> 00:16:51,475 It trained people to think ahead of meetings about what they wanted to convey. 325 00:16:51,775 --> 00:16:55,735 It forced people to put ideas down on paper in a way that were succinct and 326 00:16:56,095 --> 00:16:58,660 therefore processed multiple different times before they actually got. 327 00:16:59,220 --> 00:17:02,520 Passed around in the memo, it forced people to, to read the memos 328 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:04,590 ahead of the meeting unless they wanted to be caught out in it. 329 00:17:04,590 --> 00:17:06,990 And it led to a culture of being just much more efficient. 330 00:17:06,990 --> 00:17:10,110 And you think about all of those things from that simple act 331 00:17:10,110 --> 00:17:11,430 with that one management system. 332 00:17:11,430 --> 00:17:15,210 And that's one of only dozens and dozens that I've read about at Amazon over time. 333 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,900 Think about the impact that, that one thing. 334 00:17:18,350 --> 00:17:20,300 Did, and it came from Jeff himself. 335 00:17:20,300 --> 00:17:22,220 He's the one that declared that was gonna be the case. 336 00:17:22,220 --> 00:17:25,640 And so, you know, you could pick example after example. 337 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,660 Early on declaring that everything had to have an API, so that there 338 00:17:29,660 --> 00:17:32,180 was intercommunication between different parts of the company that 339 00:17:32,180 --> 00:17:36,430 led to a completely different type of company structure and culture 340 00:17:36,430 --> 00:17:38,410 than we see in most companies today. 341 00:17:38,660 --> 00:17:39,260 All of the. 342 00:17:40,175 --> 00:17:43,925 Investments that they made early on in trying out new business models 343 00:17:43,925 --> 00:17:48,335 in small ways and being willing to explore whether it made sense to 344 00:17:48,755 --> 00:17:52,465 get into AWS for example, which of course is now a behemoth in the world. 345 00:17:52,515 --> 00:17:55,575 The reason I fall back on what, what could feel like an easy 346 00:17:55,605 --> 00:17:57,405 kind of trite business story. 347 00:17:57,585 --> 00:17:59,805 And it's not trite, it's actually really interesting. 348 00:17:59,805 --> 00:18:03,805 But it's because you can actually attach the actions. 349 00:18:04,255 --> 00:18:08,610 That led to the powerful outcomes in Amazon to the individual himself, the 350 00:18:08,610 --> 00:18:10,620 CEO, who in this case was Jeff Bezos. 351 00:18:11,535 --> 00:18:14,055 Daniel Rowles: Well, that, that leads me on nicely into something that's come up 352 00:18:14,055 --> 00:18:17,475 in a previous book, which is this idea of, you know, minimally viable move and 353 00:18:17,485 --> 00:18:21,025 we've all heard minimal viable products, but how does that relate to this? 354 00:18:21,625 --> 00:18:24,520 Geoff Tuff: Well, you got the you got the etymology right of the 355 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:26,140 term, so a minimally viable product. 356 00:18:26,140 --> 00:18:27,100 I'm sure everyone. 357 00:18:27,570 --> 00:18:31,470 Knows, or at least all your listeners know, is a is an approach to doing 358 00:18:31,470 --> 00:18:34,170 product development where you do a little bit of development work, you put it out 359 00:18:34,170 --> 00:18:37,890 into the world, you see a reaction, and depending on the reaction, you pull it 360 00:18:37,890 --> 00:18:40,830 back into the lab and you either continue on down that development path or you do 361 00:18:40,830 --> 00:18:42,330 something different based on the feedback. 362 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,890 The exact same approach can be applied to any sort of management decision. 363 00:18:47,205 --> 00:18:51,345 Square, if you can boil what you're trying to do down to the smallest, 364 00:18:51,345 --> 00:18:55,035 testable hypothesis, and just go do it and get some feedback. 365 00:18:55,095 --> 00:18:57,745 And you know, if it sounds like. 366 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,400 Whether you're trying to make a talent decision, you're trying to 367 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,230 make a partnership decision with another company or if you could 368 00:19:03,230 --> 00:19:04,580 be in product development as well. 369 00:19:05,060 --> 00:19:07,760 If the feedback from your target audience is positive, then yes, 370 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,640 take the next step and then the next step and continue on down that path. 371 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,870 If it's not, if it's not good, then don't go wildly in a different direction. 372 00:19:14,870 --> 00:19:18,890 But because you're working in these smallest kind of viable moves, you 373 00:19:18,890 --> 00:19:21,950 can take a small step sideways and try something a little bit different and 374 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:27,520 the connection between using minimally viable moves and honing is that if you 375 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:32,560 do that with everything that, that you use to run a company, then you're never 376 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,770 gonna get that far off track because you're constantly making those small 377 00:19:35,770 --> 00:19:39,670 adjustments, just like the small moves in the rudder or the small trimming of the 378 00:19:39,670 --> 00:19:42,160 sales to stay on track the entire time. 379 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,660 I would imagine that many of your listeners would. 380 00:19:46,070 --> 00:19:48,890 Hear that and say, yeah, that, that seems like good common sense. 381 00:19:48,890 --> 00:19:52,160 But the reality is most companies do not operate that way. 382 00:19:52,220 --> 00:19:56,480 They, and they analyze a decision for months and months, or they let 383 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:01,750 new products get stale and stagegate systems for literally 18 months to two 384 00:20:01,750 --> 00:20:03,820 years to try to get the answer right. 385 00:20:04,315 --> 00:20:08,545 Not recognizing that actually past data and all the analysis that 386 00:20:08,545 --> 00:20:11,935 they're doing is absolutely useless in the face of the change that we're 387 00:20:11,935 --> 00:20:13,045 facing out in the outside world. 388 00:20:13,045 --> 00:20:17,395 And the only way to go and explore potential outcomes in the face of 389 00:20:17,395 --> 00:20:18,715 uncertainty is go try something. 390 00:20:18,715 --> 00:20:20,695 You're never gonna analyze yourself to the right answer. 391 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:22,570 Daniel Rowles: Right on that point. 392 00:20:22,570 --> 00:20:25,440 Now, I'd like to come point to you, raised a moment ago was this 393 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:27,810 talk about management systems as being, you know, the nervous 394 00:20:27,810 --> 00:20:30,090 system of the organization and I'm. 395 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,630 You talked about the purposeful ones, but also maybe some of the underlying 396 00:20:33,630 --> 00:20:35,760 stuff that happens organically. 397 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,780 To me, this is really at the heart of how you kind of make this work and 398 00:20:39,780 --> 00:20:41,550 how most digital transformations fail. 399 00:20:42,060 --> 00:20:44,280 So do you mind just talking about that a little bit more again as well, 400 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,310 Geoff Tuff: I think the informal ones in some ways are, the word that comes 401 00:20:47,310 --> 00:20:50,460 to mind are the more insidious ones, they're the ones that people sometimes 402 00:20:50,460 --> 00:20:52,200 don't challenge and don't even recognize. 403 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,880 But you know, all the you know, performance management and I talked 404 00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,320 before about budgeting and the more formal ones I think are reasonably 405 00:21:00,860 --> 00:21:02,300 obvious how, what you need to do. 406 00:21:02,300 --> 00:21:03,920 It's actually incredibly hard though. 407 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:05,960 I, and we had an experience with this yesterday, trying 408 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:07,580 to lead a group through this. 409 00:21:07,580 --> 00:21:10,250 Even when, you know the impact of the formal management systems, 410 00:21:10,250 --> 00:21:12,920 you know which ones matter and you know what the problem is. 411 00:21:13,475 --> 00:21:18,275 Nailing down a behavioral change that needs to occur and finding an individual 412 00:21:18,275 --> 00:21:22,055 who is going to change a management system to drive that behavior that 413 00:21:22,055 --> 00:21:25,485 gets really difficult no matter how obvious on the surface the solution is. 414 00:21:25,975 --> 00:21:26,755 But it's doable. 415 00:21:26,755 --> 00:21:28,840 It just, you need to constantly come back to the question of. 416 00:21:29,620 --> 00:21:32,890 What is the behavior we're trying to drive and who has the control over the 417 00:21:32,890 --> 00:21:34,300 management system to go and drive it? 418 00:21:34,330 --> 00:21:35,830 That in itself is an act of honing. 419 00:21:35,830 --> 00:21:36,940 Getting closer to the answer. 420 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,960 The informal ones though are a lot harder to see and actually this in 421 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,080 some ways goes back to the first book that Steve and I wrote together. 422 00:21:45,130 --> 00:21:48,760 Detonate, we talked a lot about orthodoxy and the power of orthodoxies, just the. 423 00:21:49,490 --> 00:21:53,240 Unspoken conventional wisdom around the hallways of an organization. 424 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,060 In order to have a complete look at the management systems, we need to 425 00:21:57,060 --> 00:22:00,780 understand how Orthodoxy is driving behavior in our organizations. 426 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,260 And there, there's it, there are myriad ways that happens. 427 00:22:04,260 --> 00:22:05,340 But you know, the core. 428 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:12,260 Trick to start to root out some of those is just to ask literally, why 429 00:22:12,260 --> 00:22:13,970 are we doing things the way that we do? 430 00:22:14,060 --> 00:22:17,600 Whenever something seems like it's taking too long or we're not getting 431 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,730 the outcomes, what are the forces that. 432 00:22:20,405 --> 00:22:21,605 Are leading to that. 433 00:22:21,635 --> 00:22:24,425 What are some of the belief systems that we're carrying around in our 434 00:22:24,425 --> 00:22:28,365 head that that we can address that to get to a different outcome? 435 00:22:28,365 --> 00:22:32,785 And, you know, interestingly, or perhaps obviously a lot of the time the 436 00:22:32,785 --> 00:22:35,695 things that are driving the behavior are the way that senior leaders are 437 00:22:35,695 --> 00:22:39,445 acting so beyond what people get paid for, just the way that they, 438 00:22:39,895 --> 00:22:41,935 what they ask about in the hallway. 439 00:22:41,935 --> 00:22:46,930 We had a great example of a very senior executive at a CPG company that. 440 00:22:47,740 --> 00:22:50,975 Steve and I were working with, and he was incredibly frustrated because and 441 00:22:50,975 --> 00:22:55,455 we were consulting with them on how to get better innovation out of the system. 442 00:22:55,455 --> 00:22:58,905 And it was, we had a realization collectively that actually the most 443 00:22:58,905 --> 00:23:02,235 important innovation they could, they could earn more money from was to 444 00:23:02,235 --> 00:23:05,265 drive commercial innovation and to think about business model innovation. 445 00:23:05,265 --> 00:23:07,395 And there was a, you know, that was the mandate that we had. 446 00:23:07,965 --> 00:23:11,835 And the senior executive was getting incredibly frustrated 447 00:23:11,835 --> 00:23:15,465 with this team that they weren't hearing the message and coming up 448 00:23:15,465 --> 00:23:16,575 with more commercial innovations. 449 00:23:16,575 --> 00:23:19,065 'cause every single time they came into a meeting, they started talking 450 00:23:19,065 --> 00:23:22,585 about the product innovations that they had that the team had come up with. 451 00:23:22,645 --> 00:23:25,405 And Steve and I sat in a couple of these meetings and. 452 00:23:25,975 --> 00:23:29,185 Over time, it became pretty obvious what was happening because this senior 453 00:23:29,185 --> 00:23:32,455 executive and he was actually head of the business group, every single time a 454 00:23:32,455 --> 00:23:35,635 meeting started, someone would come in with a product innovation and he would ooh 455 00:23:35,635 --> 00:23:40,015 and awe over the product innovation for 10 minutes before the meeting even started. 456 00:23:40,795 --> 00:23:43,165 Then, you know, we'd get back down to business and remind them that they were 457 00:23:43,165 --> 00:23:45,265 supposed to be working on commercial innovation, but he had trained the 458 00:23:45,265 --> 00:23:49,135 team to, no matter what was said, no matter what the strategy said, he had 459 00:23:49,135 --> 00:23:53,725 trained the team to, to recognize that he rewarded product innovation, even 460 00:23:53,725 --> 00:23:55,015 though that wasn't what he was saying. 461 00:23:55,585 --> 00:23:59,855 That there's a, there's another great story that, I don't know if 462 00:23:59,855 --> 00:24:02,895 it's a apocryphal or not, but we've been telling it recently 'cause 463 00:24:03,065 --> 00:24:04,745 Steve heard about it somewhere. 464 00:24:04,745 --> 00:24:08,605 But apparently at some point in time, Jay Edgar Hoover, who many of your listeners 465 00:24:08,605 --> 00:24:13,885 may know, ran the US FBI for a very long time and had responsibility for our. 466 00:24:14,085 --> 00:24:16,045 Our FBI network. 467 00:24:16,075 --> 00:24:21,155 And the way he communicated with me, many members of his team was through memos. 468 00:24:21,155 --> 00:24:25,005 They would write him a memo and he would respond to them by jotting down notes 469 00:24:25,005 --> 00:24:26,505 on the memo and send it back to them. 470 00:24:27,135 --> 00:24:29,175 And obviously he's responsible for intelligence. 471 00:24:29,175 --> 00:24:31,635 And so that was the domain that he was working in, and 472 00:24:31,635 --> 00:24:33,525 he got a memo at some point. 473 00:24:34,790 --> 00:24:38,640 He read through the memo and he, you know, wrote on the in the margin 474 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:40,050 of the memo, watch the borders. 475 00:24:42,555 --> 00:24:46,485 People who got the memo back, who've been trained not to, you know, question 476 00:24:46,485 --> 00:24:50,285 J or Hoover, but to go and execute on his commands, that's what they did. 477 00:24:50,375 --> 00:24:54,360 Immediately started deploying people to the borders of Canada and Mexico 478 00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:56,670 because he had written Watch the Borders. 479 00:24:57,210 --> 00:25:00,930 And what he actually meant is your margins are too big in this memo. 480 00:25:01,260 --> 00:25:06,185 Watch the borders of your memo, and it's just, it's one of those stories that is I 481 00:25:06,185 --> 00:25:10,335 think it resonates so much, especially in business community, if it's even true, by 482 00:25:10,335 --> 00:25:13,365 the way, I don't know if it's true, but it resonates much in business communities to 483 00:25:13,365 --> 00:25:17,655 think about how often a senior executive in a meeting will either say something 484 00:25:17,655 --> 00:25:21,195 or ask a question, and then immediately after the meeting, everyone runs to go to 485 00:25:21,195 --> 00:25:23,985 try to get the answer because they believe that's the most important thing they can 486 00:25:23,985 --> 00:25:25,545 go and do without actually effort just. 487 00:25:26,745 --> 00:25:28,875 Putting up their hand and saying, is this just a point of curiosity 488 00:25:28,875 --> 00:25:31,095 or is it something you really want us to go and run down, 489 00:25:32,335 --> 00:25:32,760 Daniel Rowles: I love it. 490 00:25:32,820 --> 00:25:36,750 And so, so I mean, if someone's read the book and they're kind of thinking 491 00:25:36,750 --> 00:25:37,680 about these principles, would you. 492 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,700 You think the first thing a leader should go off and do after going through home? 493 00:25:41,465 --> 00:25:42,635 Geoff Tuff: engage. 494 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,990 In whatever way they have to engage down into the organization. 495 00:25:45,990 --> 00:25:49,410 So not just their senior executive team, but down through the middle and 496 00:25:49,410 --> 00:25:53,090 lower management layers of the system to understand and collectively decide 497 00:25:53,390 --> 00:25:54,680 what are the behaviors that matter. 498 00:25:55,070 --> 00:25:58,190 And sometimes it's obvious what behaviors matter in, in an organization. 499 00:25:58,190 --> 00:25:59,600 And when I say behaviors here, by the way. 500 00:26:00,050 --> 00:26:03,500 I think about it expansively as being the behaviors within the organization, 501 00:26:03,500 --> 00:26:05,360 but also outside the organization. 502 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,190 But get the conversation going about what behaviors matter. 503 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,870 That in and of itself will change the way that people look at 504 00:26:11,870 --> 00:26:13,370 and think about their business. 505 00:26:13,730 --> 00:26:16,940 But it will then start the dialogue around, okay, let's, you know, we 506 00:26:16,940 --> 00:26:19,310 can't shift every single behavior we would like to, but let's. 507 00:26:20,135 --> 00:26:21,275 Understand which ones matter. 508 00:26:21,275 --> 00:26:25,265 Let's do some sort of prioritization and then let's start to realign our 509 00:26:25,265 --> 00:26:28,685 management systems to drive the things that will be most in line with us, 510 00:26:28,685 --> 00:26:30,515 staying on track to what we set off to do. 511 00:26:31,025 --> 00:26:33,555 And if we can do nothing other than simply. 512 00:26:34,155 --> 00:26:38,145 You know, reconfigure companies to go drive the behaviors that matter to them. 513 00:26:38,145 --> 00:26:40,545 That in and of itself is a massive source of value. 514 00:26:40,635 --> 00:26:45,145 But I bet just the very starting of the conversation to to talk about 515 00:26:45,145 --> 00:26:47,665 behaviors, especially with all levels of the organization, will lead to a 516 00:26:47,665 --> 00:26:51,505 different lead to a different cultural approach to management as well. 517 00:26:52,500 --> 00:26:54,415 Daniel Rowles: Well, we will put the link through to the book into the show 518 00:26:54,415 --> 00:26:56,905 notes, so target internet.com/podcast. 519 00:26:56,905 --> 00:26:59,755 Is there anywhere else, Jeff, that people can kind of follow what you're doing 520 00:26:59,755 --> 00:27:00,780 and the other things you're working on? 521 00:27:01,615 --> 00:27:04,255 Geoff Tuff: So absolutely the best place to find anything that Steve 522 00:27:04,255 --> 00:27:05,815 and I are doing is on LinkedIn. 523 00:27:05,865 --> 00:27:08,355 We would love for people to connect to us. 524 00:27:08,405 --> 00:27:13,245 We only get to write these books because we learn from people like your listeners 525 00:27:13,245 --> 00:27:17,365 and anytime they would like to engage, whether it's to just talk about some of 526 00:27:17,365 --> 00:27:20,725 the ideas or invite us out to discuss some of the ideas with companies. 527 00:27:20,725 --> 00:27:22,075 We're always game to do that. 528 00:27:22,075 --> 00:27:23,235 That's that's what we like. 529 00:27:23,335 --> 00:27:25,915 Well, it's not the only thing we like in our lives, but we really enjoy that. 530 00:27:26,244 --> 00:27:27,564 Daniel Rowles: We will put the link through to those LinkedIn 531 00:27:27,564 --> 00:27:29,114 connections in the show notes as well. 532 00:27:29,114 --> 00:27:31,544 Jeff t thank you so much for joining us and discussing home. 533 00:27:31,726 --> 00:27:31,936 Geoff Tuff: Yeah. 534 00:27:31,936 --> 00:27:32,716 Thank you for having me.