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Haley Radke: This podcast
is for educational and

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entertainment purposes only.

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Nothing stated on it either by its hosts
or any guests, is to be construed as

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psychological, medical, or legal advice.

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You are listening to Adoptees
On the podcast where adoptees

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discuss the adoption experience.

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I'm Haley Radke.

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Today's guest is memoirist
and poet Nik Chang Hoon.

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Nik shares his journey of identity
and language reclamation, including

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returning to Korea and reuniting
with his birth mother in secret.

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We also talk about estrangement,
healing and his powerful writing

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that invites us to look deeper at the
pain and resilience of finding one's

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place between families and cultures.

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Before we get started, I wanna
personally invite you to join our

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Patreon adoptee community today over
on adopteeson.com/community, which

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helps support you and also the show to
support more adoptees around the world.

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And we wrap up with some
recommended resources.

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As always, links to everything
we'll be talking about today are

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on the website, adopteeson.com.

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Let's listen in.

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I am so pleased to welcome to Adoptees
On Nik Chang Hoon and welcome Nik.

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Nik Chang Hoon: Yay.

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Thank you so much.

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It's such an honor to
be on your show, Haley.

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Thank you.

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Haley Radke: Oh, I'm so glad we finally
get to meet, my husband's name is Nick.

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So we're you already have bonus points.

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Nik Chang Hoon: We're on
the right path already.

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Haley Radke: That's right.

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Nik Chang Hoon: Yeah.

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Haley Radke: Can you start, would you
mind sharing some of your story with us?

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Nik Chang Hoon: My name is Nik Chang Hoon.

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My given adoptive full name would
be Nicholas Chang Hoon Nadeau,

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and like many adoptees from
Korea, I grew up in Minnesota.

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So Minnesota historically is home
to the highest concentration of

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adopted Koreans in the world.

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And so I grew up with a plethora
of korean adoptee culture camps.

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A lot of different, yeah, just avenues for
exploring myself as an adoptee, which I

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find looking back, I'm really fortunate.

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I think not many of us are able to say
that we have a community like that.

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If you can hear my dog
barking, I apologize.

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We probably have a delivery.

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And I also feel like most things
related to adoption, I think

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it's like a contradiction.

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It's not like I wake up every
single morning over my yogurtand

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blueberries and think, I'm adopted.

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I wonder what that means for me today.

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But it also means that adoption still
permeates my life in very concrete ways.

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I think it permeated, my friendships,
my romantic relationships,

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certainly my career path and the
choices I made along the way.

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And so what I like to say is, adoption
is something that doesn't define me,

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but certainly describes and accounts
for quite a bit of my life experience.

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So I'm happy to chat more about all
of those things about living in Korea,

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about understanding myself both as an
adoptee, and a Korean and now a husband.

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Haley Radke: There's so many places
we can go, but I wanna press pause.

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Nik Chang Hoon: Yeah.

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I just gave you like a
gajillion places to go.

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Haley Radke: You did.

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You did I think Land of Gazillion Adoptees
was originally Koreans in Minnesota.

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Yes.

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Nik Chang Hoon: Yes.

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Haley Radke: Korean adoptees.

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Nik Chang Hoon: Yep.

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Kevin Vollmers and many
others who contributed.

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Yes, they're amazing.

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Haley Radke: Tell me, do you know why.

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Why were there so many?

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Nik Chang Hoon: I happen to have a
non-official, a non-academic explanation

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for that, but I would like to shout
out Dr. Kim Park Nelson, who's based

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here in Minnesota and is one of the
pioneers of Korean adoption studies,

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and actually teaches an entire course
on this that we're privileged to be

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able to register for here in Minnesota.

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So I'll give a amateur's
version, and I typically say,

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there are three main factors.

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One actually is a single person.

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She colloquially went by the name
of Mrs. Han, and she single-handedly

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following the Korean War, began
to form relationships in Korea.

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And essentially build from scratch a
form early form of Korean adoption.

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So obviously the first wave of
adoptees out of Korea, like almost

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anywhere else in the world where
adoption occurs is from civil war or

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some other form of military conflict.

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And so Mrs. Han played a big role in
building out those early years of what

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we now have as a formal adoption system.

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Minnesota also historically, has been
a more progressive state with a lot of

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social welfare systems in place, and
also quite, quite a Christian community.

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I'd say, I myself grew up Catholic.

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There's, I would say, plenty of
Lutherans around as well, and especially

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in that first and maybe second wave,
a kind of a Christian destination.

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While that didn't describe my experience,
was certainly sometimes a stated

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preference among relinquishing parents.

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And also Minnesota has a pretty strong
relationship historically following

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the Korean War with Seoul National
University and other institutions that

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were actively trying to build their own
higher education system following the war.

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And beyond just social
services and social welfare.

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Minnesota did have a kind of an
outsized role in, those early years

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and decades following the war.

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And I think the most important part
is to understand that, adoption,

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like any other system that involves
transactions is inherently complex.

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I happen to be of the perspective
that intercountry or international

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adoption should be abolished.

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But that's not the position that I
started at, and in fact many before me

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were, I think, instrumental in laying
the foundation for those arguments.

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And so I'm both humbled and embarrassed
to say that it took me actually quite

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a long time to reach that perspective.

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And I think, regardless of one's
views on adoption itself, I like

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to say that it's okay and actually
helpful to think about adoption.

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Like we think about where our steak
comes from or how the cotton in

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our t-shirt, where that came from.

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These are things that almost
journalistically and historically we

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can trace to very identifiable reasons.

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Haley Radke: I think the more we research
the behind the scenes of things, the

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more abolitionist often we become.

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Nik Chang Hoon: Almost
certainly is the case.

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At least it was for me and still is.

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Haley Radke: Yes.

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Okay.

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Thank you for that little
interlude of teaching time for us.

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Can we go back?

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Did you go to school with
any fellow Korean adoptees?

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Nik Chang Hoon: Yeah, so I grew up
in kind of the outer ring suburbs

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of St. Paul where my community
was almost exclusively white.

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I like to say that I, a mile north
of me were dairy farms and a mile

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south of me were a strip malls.

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So that's the outer
edge of where I grew up.

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I went to a school system
called White Bear Lake.

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The running joke growing up is that
it was nicknamed White Boy Lake

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'cause there were so many white boys.

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And I happened to have a lot of
Korean adoptee friends through Camp

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Choson, which was a, and still is
a summer camp for adopted Koreans.

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But also through school.

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I, one of my closest friends still, Laura,
is a friend I've known for a long time.

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The librarian at my high school was
an adoptive, is an adoptive parent to

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someone who essentially single-handedly
created and still runs a traditional

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Korean dance studio here called JangMi.

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And so there's just so many connections
that you make almost accidentally

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being here in the Twin Cities where
it is actually somewhat normal to be

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surrounded or at least exposed to other
adoptees, especially Korean adoptees,

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not necessarily as much with Latin
American or Russian or Chinese adoptees.

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So yeah, the short answer is I had
some adoptee friends, but certainly

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not, the majority, the vast majority
were yeah just white friends that

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I grew up playing hockey with and
hanging out with, playing football

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in the backyard, things like that.

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Haley Radke: I guess if someone forced
me to say something positive about

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great numbers of Korean adoptees
leaving Korea and to go into your

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area, you had some peers that you could
identify with and build community with.

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Nik Chang Hoon: Yes.

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Haley Radke: That's great.

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Okay.

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When did you first decide you
wanted to go back to Korea, was that

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something that you always wanted to do?

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Did you think about it as a child?

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Tell us about that.

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Nik Chang Hoon: Growing up my parents
were really open about my origins.

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I also was in possession of certain
documents that were, revelatory of just

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basic facts about my birth family and the
circumstances around my relinquishment.

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Haley Radke: Wait what
papers did you have?

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Like, when did you get them?

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Nik Chang Hoon: Yeah, so as long as I can
remember my parents kept a kinda like a

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box or I think a file with a few things.

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So one was basically a series
of forms that included testimony

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from my birth father at the time
of my relinquishment around the

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late spring, early summer of 1988.

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And that information actually had
my birth mother's name in Korean

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as well as my birth father's,
their ages their locations.

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It didn't have any contact information,
but even just to have, the legitimate

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legal name of one's, birth parents
or relatives from one's first

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family is definitely a privilege.

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It's something that most
adoptees do not have.

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And at the same time, there
was certainly a lot left out.

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I wasn't really able to gather my
birth mother's perspective from

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those documents, it was only based
on testimony from my birth father.

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Later I found out it was because
he was the one to, for lack of

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a better phrase, hand me over.

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My birth mother was actually
outside, which she shared

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with me several years later.

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I also knew and had some home video.

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So they're somewhere in our files and
boxes still is a VHS tape with some

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footage of me not surprisingly to those
who know me, I was a little crabby,

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I was a maybe a eight or 10 month old
needed to eat perhaps, but I was throwing

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a temper tantrum right on home video.

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This was supposed to be the video that
essentially helps adoptive parents

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see what a wonderful, well-behaved
child they will be receiving.

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And so we had footage like that.

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What we didn't have was
circumstances beyond just my

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birth father's brief account.

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I didn't know, certainly didn't have
addresses, and I, overall didn't

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have a whole lot of desire to do
a birth family search consciously,

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at least growing up, it wasn't
something that dominated my thoughts.

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I think the first moment when at least
going to Korea or learning Korean as a

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language really dawned on me, was when
I was home from college really early on.

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So probably during a holiday break,
my first year of college, this

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would've been 2005, and I recall
there was a package of photo paper.

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At least still back then, we had some
technology to print photos at home.

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It was still quite primitive.

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But we had a photo
printer and it was an HP.

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Hewlett Packard brand and the paper
was blue, or the packaging rather,

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it was a blue kind of foil bag to
seal that photo paper in and on the

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back of that bag were instructions.

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I'm not sure why photo paper requires
instructions, but these were instructions

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in all kinds of different languages.

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And in the middle of that package, I knew
that one of the languages was Korean.

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It was couched between two others,
perhaps, or maybe it was the

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one on the top or the bottom.

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I knew there were three Asian languages.

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One was Chinese, one was
Korean, one was Japanese.

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I knew that.

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I just didn't know which one was Korean.

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And while I didn't have a name for that
feeling at the time, I now know that the

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name for that feeling is called shame.

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So I felt a really deep sense of shame
and this just to give further context

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was during a time when I was aspiring to
be a Spanish language professor, I was

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essentially enrolled as an undergraduate
in really advanced Spanish grammar.

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I literally had a grammar textbook
coming home that took you through

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basically the nuances of all the things
that you might want to know to become

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a teacher of the Spanish language.

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And I remember thinking to myself, why
am I going so far in my study of Spanish

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when I can't even recognize the alphabet
of my own birth country's language, my

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language of origin, and so that, period
of time going back to college was when

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I sought out the only other Korean
adoptee I knew his name was Brian.

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And I specifically remember, we,
he was kind enough to invite me

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into his room, and we had a long
conversation where I related a

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lot of what I just related to you.

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And at the end of it it felt almost like
the matrix, if you've seen the first

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matrix film when Neo visits the Oracle
and the Oracle essentially tells Neo that

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he's already made a decision and he is
just here in this room with the Oracle to

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understand the decision he's already made.

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That's the best way I can describe what
I felt like in that conversation where

228
00:13:37,090 --> 00:13:40,650
I knew what I had to do and what I had
to do seemed really dramatic and epic at

229
00:13:40,650 --> 00:13:44,850
the time, which was to cancel this trip
to Costa Rica that I had planned that

230
00:13:44,850 --> 00:13:47,250
summer to immerse myself in Spanish.

231
00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:52,770
And with that money and more that I
took out in additional student loans, I

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00:13:52,770 --> 00:13:55,050
enrolled in a 10 week intensive course.

233
00:13:55,450 --> 00:13:58,870
Korean language immersion course at the
University of Minnesota Twin Cities in

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00:13:58,870 --> 00:14:03,610
Minneapolis, which was by coincidence
the first summer that they were offering

235
00:14:03,700 --> 00:14:05,530
this kind of summer intensive program.

236
00:14:05,965 --> 00:14:10,765
So for that whole summer, this was
July through August, 2006, I learned

237
00:14:10,765 --> 00:14:16,135
Korean at the U of M met someone named
Martha Vickery and Steve Wunrow who run

238
00:14:16,135 --> 00:14:21,355
a Korean American newspaper basically
they're white adopted parents themselves,

239
00:14:21,355 --> 00:14:24,885
but they've long published an amazing
newspaper called Korean Quarterly.

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00:14:24,885 --> 00:14:29,265
So I interned for them as a staff writer,
and they also just so happened to found

241
00:14:29,265 --> 00:14:30,705
a Korean traditional percussion group.

242
00:14:30,705 --> 00:14:34,175
So in, in that summer, I did those
three things and that changed my life,

243
00:14:34,175 --> 00:14:35,385
there was no looking back after that.

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00:14:36,455 --> 00:14:39,695
Haley Radke: The documents that
you had as a child, were those

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00:14:39,695 --> 00:14:41,525
all translated into English?

246
00:14:41,525 --> 00:14:44,855
Was it a combo like you, could
you go back and look at it?

247
00:14:44,855 --> 00:14:45,995
Nik Chang Hoon: Sure, yeah.

248
00:14:45,995 --> 00:14:51,935
Most of what I have is transcribed,
Romanized for names, and so there

249
00:14:51,935 --> 00:14:56,675
certainly were Korean characters so
Hangul was appearing, but a lot of that

250
00:14:56,675 --> 00:14:59,105
information was transcribed into English.

251
00:14:59,535 --> 00:15:07,120
Later, maybe 2007, I believe I returned
to Korea to search for my files at

252
00:15:07,450 --> 00:15:12,310
my adoption agency based in Seoul,
and I was bracing myself for new or

253
00:15:12,310 --> 00:15:15,790
additional information and actually the
documents were the exact same in my file.

254
00:15:15,790 --> 00:15:20,510
And so I again had quite a privileged
experience of, being in possession

255
00:15:20,510 --> 00:15:24,410
since early childhood of the exact
same documents in the same form

256
00:15:24,860 --> 00:15:27,170
that I later found were in my file.

257
00:15:27,530 --> 00:15:27,800
Yeah.

258
00:15:28,495 --> 00:15:28,795
Haley Radke: Wow.

259
00:15:29,215 --> 00:15:33,805
I had goosebumps while you were talking
about this language reclamation.

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00:15:33,805 --> 00:15:34,195
Really.

261
00:15:34,705 --> 00:15:35,635
That's amazing.

262
00:15:35,665 --> 00:15:40,315
Okay, so you learned
Korean, but in Minnesota.

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00:15:41,335 --> 00:15:41,635
Nik Chang Hoon: Yep.

264
00:15:42,265 --> 00:15:46,165
Haley Radke: And then when
did you go back to Korea?

265
00:15:46,795 --> 00:15:49,165
Nik Chang Hoon: My first trip
back to Korea was actually

266
00:15:49,195 --> 00:15:51,340
through korean Quarterly.

267
00:15:51,340 --> 00:15:56,770
Steve and Martha sent me essentially
on a journalistic mission to cover what

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00:15:56,770 --> 00:16:03,760
essentially was a global adoption summit
that the Korean government was hosting.

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00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:08,450
They were doing this mostly for
national image reasons, but there was

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00:16:08,870 --> 00:16:10,280
a certain degree of substance to it.

271
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:14,120
There were folks across all kinds
of disciplines, social workers,

272
00:16:14,210 --> 00:16:18,410
other journalists, other adoptees
and scholars who were invited to

273
00:16:18,410 --> 00:16:20,480
this kinda week long conference.

274
00:16:20,540 --> 00:16:24,470
And I was able to go, essentially
as a journalist, but also as

275
00:16:24,470 --> 00:16:25,850
a participant, both at once.

276
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:28,660
It was like not reality.

277
00:16:28,660 --> 00:16:31,120
They put us up in the
Ritz-Carlton in Kangnam.

278
00:16:31,390 --> 00:16:34,000
I distinctly remember the
first morning I got there.

279
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:35,380
I landed at four in the morning.

280
00:16:35,810 --> 00:16:38,780
Not only had I never been to Korea
or Seoul, I had never been to a

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00:16:38,780 --> 00:16:41,030
large city at that point in my life.

282
00:16:41,030 --> 00:16:43,635
And so I was trying to
get to the Coex Mall.

283
00:16:43,635 --> 00:16:48,045
I wanted to see this huge mall that
I'd heard about with a huge aquarium.

284
00:16:48,045 --> 00:16:52,695
And I walked down the hill from the
Ritz Carlton to the intersection

285
00:16:52,695 --> 00:16:55,515
where I believe there was a subway
station, but I didn't know what

286
00:16:55,515 --> 00:16:56,685
a subway station looked like.

287
00:16:56,745 --> 00:17:01,365
I assumed I had to go down some stairs,
but I spent a good hour circling that

288
00:17:01,365 --> 00:17:03,195
intersection in the heat of summer.

289
00:17:03,815 --> 00:17:05,345
And getting lost.

290
00:17:05,415 --> 00:17:06,675
So another feeling of shame.

291
00:17:06,675 --> 00:17:08,415
Another episode of shame, part two.

292
00:17:08,815 --> 00:17:14,455
I finally pulled aside a Korean, an
Ahjussi uncle kind of guy, showed him

293
00:17:14,455 --> 00:17:18,655
the business card of the Ritz Carlton,
and asked him in really clumsy Korean

294
00:17:18,655 --> 00:17:24,310
where he if he knew where it was and
he just looked up and lo and behold,

295
00:17:24,310 --> 00:17:28,660
if you just thought to look up, you
would see a ginormous golden lion

296
00:17:29,050 --> 00:17:31,540
perched atop a sparkling white building.

297
00:17:31,540 --> 00:17:33,010
And that was the Ritz-Carlton.

298
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,770
So I promptly thanked
him, bowed awkwardly, and.

299
00:17:36,340 --> 00:17:36,880
And went back.

300
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:38,290
And so that was the start of my week.

301
00:17:38,290 --> 00:17:40,390
We did a lot of
conversations about adoption.

302
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:42,550
I believe we went jet skiing once.

303
00:17:42,550 --> 00:17:43,750
It was the oddest thing.

304
00:17:43,810 --> 00:17:49,150
And the president of Korea at the
time gave essentially an address

305
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,870
by video conference, essentially
apologizing for Korea, having

306
00:17:53,870 --> 00:17:56,510
let so many adopted infants go.

307
00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,320
And that's when I was first introduced
to the concept of Korea as a motherland.

308
00:18:00,710 --> 00:18:03,650
And I wrote extensively about
that as an undergraduate and have

309
00:18:03,650 --> 00:18:04,700
thought about that ever since.

310
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:10,460
Haley Radke: This is slightly related,
like we'll go back to your story, but

311
00:18:11,450 --> 00:18:16,100
I guess I found a piece from Korean
Quarterly at some point you were

312
00:18:16,100 --> 00:18:21,140
writing about this, so this seems
like a little bit after in 2011, where

313
00:18:21,170 --> 00:18:27,020
you write about Korean unwed mothers
pushing for a stigma free society.

314
00:18:27,175 --> 00:18:27,395
Nik Chang Hoon: Yes.

315
00:18:28,195 --> 00:18:32,425
Haley Radke: And I'm curious, can, if
you can just speak to that and you're

316
00:18:32,425 --> 00:18:39,535
talking about your personal feeling
of shame and societally, Korean, Korea

317
00:18:39,535 --> 00:18:44,525
had that for anyone who had a baby out
of wedlock and now can, and then can

318
00:18:44,525 --> 00:18:48,995
you speak to, do you know what it's
like now all these many years later?

319
00:18:50,070 --> 00:18:52,620
Nik Chang Hoon: So first of all,
I would say a couple of things.

320
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,190
First and foremost when we
think about the adoption triad.

321
00:18:56,250 --> 00:19:00,680
So for our listeners, that means adoptees
as one corner of the triangle, our

322
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:05,630
biological parents and relatives as
another, and then adoptive family as the

323
00:19:05,630 --> 00:19:11,900
third, dominant media narratives around
adoption almost exclusively focus on just

324
00:19:11,900 --> 00:19:13,820
two of those corners of the triangle.

325
00:19:14,150 --> 00:19:18,860
And if birth parents and especially
biological mothers are left out,

326
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:23,480
usually it's because number one,
there's not a whole lot of access to,

327
00:19:23,530 --> 00:19:25,030
locating them and speaking with them.

328
00:19:25,030 --> 00:19:28,380
But number two, just everyone else in
the triad, they're often objectified.

329
00:19:28,430 --> 00:19:32,060
They're either framed as these
salvific figures that did a

330
00:19:32,060 --> 00:19:35,570
beautiful thing and otherwise live
in destitute poverty, or they're

331
00:19:35,570 --> 00:19:37,430
just not really part of the picture.

332
00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:41,335
And so when I lived in
Korea from 2009 to 2011.

333
00:19:42,135 --> 00:19:45,675
Right after college, I was on a Fulbright
grant teaching English my first year,

334
00:19:45,675 --> 00:19:50,145
and then working in the Fulbright office
My second year I, in my spare time,

335
00:19:50,145 --> 00:19:54,885
especially when I was able to live in
Seoul, I would volunteer as a reporter,

336
00:19:54,885 --> 00:19:59,505
so I, for Korean Quarterly, so I would
go to various events that were sponsored

337
00:19:59,505 --> 00:20:05,445
by a nonprofit called KUMFA, the Korean
Unwed Mothers and Families Association,

338
00:20:05,505 --> 00:20:07,985
I believe is the long form of their name.

339
00:20:08,465 --> 00:20:12,905
And Dr. Richard Boas was the founder
and someone that I interviewed for a

340
00:20:12,905 --> 00:20:17,825
story at that time around just what
Korean unwed mothers often go through.

341
00:20:17,825 --> 00:20:20,805
And so the Korean term for
unwed mother is mihonmo.

342
00:20:21,225 --> 00:20:25,595
And mihonmo in Korea undergo
still a lot of social stigma.

343
00:20:25,925 --> 00:20:31,155
It is really difficult and often
dangerous, extremely risky to reveal that

344
00:20:31,155 --> 00:20:32,865
you've once had a child out of wedlock.

345
00:20:33,255 --> 00:20:37,185
And even now, 15, 20 years
later, it's still something my

346
00:20:37,185 --> 00:20:39,045
own birth mother will not share.

347
00:20:39,105 --> 00:20:43,875
And so I'm still a secret from
my half siblings and much of her

348
00:20:43,875 --> 00:20:46,005
immediate family as a result.

349
00:20:46,105 --> 00:20:52,945
There was a New York Times story, I think
in 2009 or 2010 that really dove into this

350
00:20:52,945 --> 00:20:55,015
issue for the first time in, in detail.

351
00:20:55,285 --> 00:21:00,265
And one of the subjects of that piece was
almost instantly she was a hairdresser

352
00:21:00,265 --> 00:21:04,315
and she almost instantly overnight
lost a large portion of her clients who

353
00:21:04,315 --> 00:21:07,405
refused to, get their hair cut from her.

354
00:21:07,465 --> 00:21:12,925
And so there are material and familial
consequences due to a lot of things.

355
00:21:12,975 --> 00:21:16,325
But one of them is just this
constant focus on image and

356
00:21:16,325 --> 00:21:17,495
continuity of bloodline.

357
00:21:17,495 --> 00:21:21,965
I think it's more complicated
than just chalking it up to

358
00:21:22,025 --> 00:21:23,435
quote unquote neo-Confucianism.

359
00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:28,145
But I also think there is, a valid
argument to be had that, this kind

360
00:21:28,145 --> 00:21:31,255
of thing really happens when you
have a post-war country, whether

361
00:21:31,255 --> 00:21:35,875
it's Korea or Guatemala or anywhere
else, out of which adoption springs,

362
00:21:36,295 --> 00:21:40,755
those who stand to lose the most,
almost always are the birth families.

363
00:21:40,965 --> 00:21:44,055
And I think we, we need to talk
about that a lot more than we do.

364
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:46,470
Haley Radke: I can't
believe there's no movement.

365
00:21:46,590 --> 00:21:47,880
That is so sad.

366
00:21:49,260 --> 00:21:49,590
Nik Chang Hoon: Yeah.

367
00:21:49,590 --> 00:21:53,490
I mean it's, I think it's growing
as a conversation and certainly over

368
00:21:53,490 --> 00:21:56,580
the last five to 10 years there's
been more scholarship around the

369
00:21:56,580 --> 00:21:58,840
state of, biological families.

370
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:03,450
But it's certainly still a burgeoning
field and I wish we'd talk about it more.

371
00:22:03,750 --> 00:22:04,110
Haley Radke: Yeah.

372
00:22:04,230 --> 00:22:04,860
Yeah, definitely.

373
00:22:04,860 --> 00:22:05,220
Thank you.

374
00:22:05,580 --> 00:22:05,970
Okay.

375
00:22:06,690 --> 00:22:08,160
We can't gloss over this.

376
00:22:08,550 --> 00:22:09,510
You met your mother.

377
00:22:09,570 --> 00:22:10,170
Tell us.

378
00:22:10,875 --> 00:22:17,445
Nik Chang Hoon: Yeah, so in 2009,
during my first year in Korea through

379
00:22:17,445 --> 00:22:22,395
a Fulbright grant was when I first
decided to pursue a search formally,

380
00:22:22,395 --> 00:22:25,085
and so I filled out some forms.

381
00:22:25,115 --> 00:22:29,615
I think I paid a fee of $200, which I
negotiated down 'cause I was a pretty poor

382
00:22:29,615 --> 00:22:35,105
college student and like most experiences
I've had, again, one of deep privilege.

383
00:22:35,165 --> 00:22:37,775
I located my birth mother in three months.

384
00:22:38,135 --> 00:22:40,150
So at the time that I received the email.

385
00:22:40,685 --> 00:22:43,835
Sharing news from my adoption
agency, which is how I

386
00:22:43,835 --> 00:22:45,515
searched that they'd found her.

387
00:22:45,695 --> 00:22:49,985
I was at a friend's homestay
family's apartment in Seoul watching

388
00:22:50,315 --> 00:22:55,175
the 2010 Vancouver Olympic Games
that February, and I just started

389
00:22:55,175 --> 00:22:56,885
searching in November of 2009.

390
00:22:56,885 --> 00:23:01,295
So literally within 90 days I
received an email, and a couple months

391
00:23:01,295 --> 00:23:04,145
later that April, I met my mother.

392
00:23:04,530 --> 00:23:09,700
And my eldest maternal uncle,
at a halfway point between Seoul

393
00:23:09,700 --> 00:23:11,020
and where they lived in Daegu.

394
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,470
And I write about that experience.

395
00:23:13,470 --> 00:23:17,490
I have an essay in the Texas
Review from the summer that kind

396
00:23:17,490 --> 00:23:19,260
of expands on what that felt like.

397
00:23:19,260 --> 00:23:21,780
But I think there, there
are two things I'll say.

398
00:23:21,780 --> 00:23:24,990
One is it's a really surreal
experience to meet someone who

399
00:23:24,990 --> 00:23:26,940
looks like you for the first time.

400
00:23:27,940 --> 00:23:31,630
In fact, my mother, when she first saw me,
I thought there was gonna be some hugs,

401
00:23:31,630 --> 00:23:33,340
some tears, like Good Morning America.

402
00:23:33,610 --> 00:23:37,770
What actually happened was she
stiff armed me like a NFL running

403
00:23:37,770 --> 00:23:42,350
back, and I remember just the
impact of her hand on my shoulder.

404
00:23:42,350 --> 00:23:46,290
It was like a, it was like, ooh, and
she wasn't trying to create distance.

405
00:23:46,290 --> 00:23:49,530
She actually wanted more
time to look at my face.

406
00:23:49,530 --> 00:23:54,710
And the first thing she said, to me and
to herself was that I looked a lot like

407
00:23:54,710 --> 00:23:59,300
my father was her, was what she said in
Korean you look exactly like your father.

408
00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:00,980
And that was how it started.

409
00:24:00,980 --> 00:24:03,020
So we had an interpreter that first day.

410
00:24:03,380 --> 00:24:06,830
And for the subsequent months afterward,
while I was still living in Korea, we

411
00:24:06,830 --> 00:24:08,345
would meet probably once every few months.

412
00:24:09,155 --> 00:24:11,825
Each time was incredibly awkward.

413
00:24:11,975 --> 00:24:13,835
She'd wanna hold my hand in public.

414
00:24:13,965 --> 00:24:16,875
There was a time where we
slept in a love motel, which

415
00:24:16,875 --> 00:24:18,585
essentially is what it sounds like.

416
00:24:18,885 --> 00:24:24,945
It's a grimy, cheap hotel with Kleenex
boxes, with sketchy phone numbers on them.

417
00:24:25,395 --> 00:24:28,365
And, that's where we could afford
to spend the night sometimes.

418
00:24:28,365 --> 00:24:31,320
And so we would and there were just
a lot of moments where it felt like.

419
00:24:32,740 --> 00:24:35,920
And still to this day sometimes
feels like she's a stranger

420
00:24:36,430 --> 00:24:37,720
who happens to be my mother.

421
00:24:37,930 --> 00:24:40,840
And then there are some times
where we hang out where she feels

422
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:42,130
like she's absolutely my mother.

423
00:24:42,130 --> 00:24:45,610
Usually if she's nagging me on
needing to go to grad school

424
00:24:45,610 --> 00:24:46,900
or find a job or get married.

425
00:24:46,900 --> 00:24:49,820
And those things that are more
normal to hear from a parent.

426
00:24:49,850 --> 00:24:52,600
Those are when it definitely
felt like, okay, this is my mom.

427
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,270
Haley Radke: So I heard
you describing this.

428
00:24:55,810 --> 00:24:59,380
This time of sleeping
in the hotel with her?

429
00:24:59,650 --> 00:24:59,740
Nik Chang Hoon: Yes.

430
00:25:00,735 --> 00:25:05,265
Haley Radke: And just for listeners
who aren't familiar it's cultural to

431
00:25:05,265 --> 00:25:08,535
sleep with your parents for a long time.

432
00:25:08,910 --> 00:25:09,420
Yeah.

433
00:25:09,570 --> 00:25:09,900
Nik Chang Hoon: Yeah.

434
00:25:09,900 --> 00:25:16,110
So in Korea, I can't account for how it is
these days, but I would say, traditionally

435
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:20,120
it's a lot more common than, for example,
in the United States to share a bed

436
00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:22,650
with your parents, especially, as a kid.

437
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:28,430
But even, growing up, as a teen, it's also
really common to be in the same household

438
00:25:28,430 --> 00:25:30,320
as your parents until you're married.

439
00:25:30,410 --> 00:25:33,920
Partially for cultural reasons, but
honestly mostly for economic reasons,

440
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:39,320
because housing in Korea is so expensive
and there was a time in Daegu where my mom

441
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:44,660
and I made plans essentially to sleep in
a motel, and I had prepared for several

442
00:25:44,660 --> 00:25:50,120
weeks a monologue in Korean that I had
revised and rehearsed that basically

443
00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:54,950
said something to the effect of I really
appreciate that you want to, sleep in

444
00:25:54,950 --> 00:25:58,640
the same bed with me, but in the United
States, that's actually a strange thing to

445
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,290
do, and I don't really feel comfortable.

446
00:26:00,290 --> 00:26:02,720
And would you be okay
if we slept separately?

447
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,220
So I had this whole thing planned out.

448
00:26:04,220 --> 00:26:06,350
It was like a thirty speech.

449
00:26:06,830 --> 00:26:10,670
I remember we were walking toward the
motel and my mother started crying and

450
00:26:10,670 --> 00:26:14,630
her, she held my hand really closely
and I said, mom, why are you crying?

451
00:26:14,630 --> 00:26:17,510
And she goes, I've been waiting
more than 20 years for this.

452
00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:20,140
And I asked 20, 20 years.

453
00:26:20,905 --> 00:26:21,385
For what?

454
00:26:21,985 --> 00:26:25,795
And she, she said to sleep in
the same bed with my own son.

455
00:26:26,510 --> 00:26:29,810
If you can just imagine me like
metaphorically ripping up that

456
00:26:29,810 --> 00:26:32,930
monologue, throwing it in the
trash, that's what I had to do.

457
00:26:32,930 --> 00:26:35,370
And what ended up happening
was we were in bed together.

458
00:26:35,370 --> 00:26:39,570
She rolled over on top of me and
was just sobbing, just completely,

459
00:26:40,050 --> 00:26:41,850
just weeping uncontrollably.

460
00:26:41,850 --> 00:26:46,110
And it was really hot in that room
and we didn't have the window open.

461
00:26:46,170 --> 00:26:48,120
There was no AC unit or
at least  it wasn't on.

462
00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:51,540
And so that was my out, I was like,
Hey, it's actually really hot in here.

463
00:26:51,690 --> 00:26:52,300
I'm sweaty.

464
00:26:52,300 --> 00:26:55,420
Is it okay if we kinda just sleep
on this side and you sleep on that

465
00:26:55,420 --> 00:26:56,920
side of the bed and she understood.

466
00:26:57,385 --> 00:27:02,045
But that, I think when I think back on
that experience now for that and many

467
00:27:02,045 --> 00:27:06,895
other reasons, I think those early years
especially I like to say that it almost

468
00:27:06,895 --> 00:27:11,135
felt like having an affair with my own
mother because whenever we met in secret.

469
00:27:11,855 --> 00:27:15,295
We deleted any of the photos that
we took together, or at least made

470
00:27:15,295 --> 00:27:16,675
sure we had a system in place.

471
00:27:16,735 --> 00:27:19,815
So her own two children and her
husband, who is not my birth father.

472
00:27:20,230 --> 00:27:21,250
Would not find out.

473
00:27:21,310 --> 00:27:24,040
And it literally had that
feeling, concretely of almost

474
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:25,220
having an affair with my own mom.

475
00:27:25,450 --> 00:27:29,000
And I think as normal as that
was to me, when I look back

476
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:30,530
on it now, especially, it.

477
00:27:30,910 --> 00:27:33,250
It does hit hard when I
think about what that meant.

478
00:27:33,700 --> 00:27:34,090
Haley Radke: Yeah.

479
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,210
It's Katrina Palmer's book,
an Affair with My Mother.

480
00:27:37,420 --> 00:27:37,780
Same.

481
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:38,170
Nik Chang Hoon: Yep.

482
00:27:38,530 --> 00:27:38,710
Yeah.

483
00:27:38,710 --> 00:27:41,800
It's a very universal feeling, I
think for those who've reunited.

484
00:27:41,980 --> 00:27:42,550
Haley Radke: Yeah.

485
00:27:42,550 --> 00:27:43,240
Nik Chang Hoon: In secret.

486
00:27:43,810 --> 00:27:44,140
Haley Radke: Nik.

487
00:27:44,435 --> 00:27:49,570
Is it to this day that  your other
half siblings and her husband,

488
00:27:49,570 --> 00:27:50,620
they don't know about you?

489
00:27:51,220 --> 00:27:55,780
Nik Chang Hoon: Yeah, so in 2016 I moved
back briefly to Korea that summer and

490
00:27:55,780 --> 00:28:01,480
I spent that whole summer on a campaign
to try to persuade my birth mother to

491
00:28:01,930 --> 00:28:04,240
allow me to meet my two half siblings.

492
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,830
I have a half brother and a half sister,
and it was not a successful attempt.

493
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:10,470
I was told at that time.

494
00:28:10,885 --> 00:28:13,485
That her idea was to wait
until they turned 30, which

495
00:28:13,485 --> 00:28:15,015
seemed pretty arbitrary to me.

496
00:28:15,375 --> 00:28:16,335
But, what could I do?

497
00:28:16,455 --> 00:28:21,185
But also, even, now with her position
being the same I don't know if I was given

498
00:28:21,185 --> 00:28:24,155
the opportunity that I would go through
with it, if only because it would put

499
00:28:24,155 --> 00:28:27,875
her in quite a bit of risk within her
family and potentially outside of it.

500
00:28:28,085 --> 00:28:31,045
Yeah, we, I still meet her in secret.

501
00:28:31,045 --> 00:28:35,915
My wife and I both go to see her, but
we, my mom will always have an alibi.

502
00:28:35,915 --> 00:28:40,035
She'll always share that she's going out
to see friends or that she is meeting her

503
00:28:40,035 --> 00:28:42,505
brother, my uncle or something like that.

504
00:28:42,555 --> 00:28:45,945
There was a brief time where on
KakaoTalk, which is a Korean Messenger

505
00:28:45,945 --> 00:28:51,020
app, I did have my birth father's cell
phone number and his Kakao profile

506
00:28:51,020 --> 00:28:54,890
appeared, and so there, and I assume
that might have been a two-way street.

507
00:28:54,890 --> 00:28:59,150
And so there are very valid
reasons for I think both my birth

508
00:28:59,150 --> 00:29:01,370
mother and I to be cautious.

509
00:29:01,770 --> 00:29:03,890
But at the same time I've
had my own arc with this.

510
00:29:03,890 --> 00:29:09,260
I feel like I deserve the choice
and understanding the risks.

511
00:29:09,260 --> 00:29:13,510
I still I think would wanna meet them even
more than my birth father, at least once.

512
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,330
And I've seen pictures of them.

513
00:29:15,330 --> 00:29:16,500
I know what my siblings look like.

514
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:18,540
We are similar in appearance.

515
00:29:18,590 --> 00:29:21,050
Certainly I would never be able to
pretend that I was like an English

516
00:29:21,050 --> 00:29:24,560
tutor or something, which is an idea
I floated once my mother laughed

517
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:25,700
and just said, that wouldn't work.

518
00:29:26,030 --> 00:29:27,320
We, we looked too much alike.

519
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:28,850
Haley Radke: I'm sorry.

520
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:30,470
Nik Chang Hoon: Oh, thank you.

521
00:29:30,770 --> 00:29:31,160
Thank you.

522
00:29:32,010 --> 00:29:33,570
Haley Radke: I know
you're not alone in that.

523
00:29:34,335 --> 00:29:36,525
It's just so painful.

524
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:37,860
That's so painful.

525
00:29:37,915 --> 00:29:38,275
Yeah,

526
00:29:38,395 --> 00:29:38,995
Nik Chang Hoon: I agree.

527
00:29:39,115 --> 00:29:45,980
And I think the, the difficult part,
bringing the conversation here to either

528
00:29:45,980 --> 00:29:49,520
my own adoptive parents or to adoptive
parents in general is, it's really, I

529
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:54,050
think, difficult for many adoptive parents
to sit with that discomfort either because

530
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:59,780
that might lead to feelings of guilt or
complicity or bewilderment or confusion.

531
00:29:59,830 --> 00:30:04,020
But also just because, international
adoption is this really strange,

532
00:30:04,110 --> 00:30:08,250
destructive thing where infants
are children are commodified.

533
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,520
And in that process, a lot
of things happen at once.

534
00:30:11,790 --> 00:30:15,200
And one of those things that
happens is, we become objectified.

535
00:30:15,270 --> 00:30:19,860
We're often the family
completion solution, right?

536
00:30:19,950 --> 00:30:24,830
Often many adoptees including
myself were adopted due to the

537
00:30:24,835 --> 00:30:26,480
infertility of their adoptive parents.

538
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:31,880
So we were a, yeah, a solution for
completing one's family and I think it's

539
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:37,340
accurate to say, and I often say that
Korean adoption or any kind of any form

540
00:30:37,340 --> 00:30:41,660
of adoption, domestic or international,
is inherently the splintering of one

541
00:30:41,660 --> 00:30:43,220
family in order to complete another.

542
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,350
And I think that second half, that
completion side is so often talked

543
00:30:47,350 --> 00:30:53,490
about as this joyous event worthy of
celebration and, memorializing each year.

544
00:30:53,490 --> 00:30:58,980
And I think also it's true that we should
think about it and memorialize on a

545
00:30:58,980 --> 00:31:02,700
regular basis, the first part, 'cause you
can't have the second without the first.

546
00:31:03,090 --> 00:31:07,305
And for me and my family, my birth
mother actually tried to take me back.

547
00:31:07,930 --> 00:31:12,340
So she felt almost immediate remorse,
saved up as much money as she could

548
00:31:12,340 --> 00:31:16,990
over a period of several weeks
and return to what I call in my

549
00:31:17,020 --> 00:31:18,520
creative writing the giving place.

550
00:31:18,700 --> 00:31:23,870
And she was told that she the cash she
had brought was not enough to cover

551
00:31:23,870 --> 00:31:26,270
the room and board that I had incurred.

552
00:31:26,990 --> 00:31:29,150
She's not the only one to attempt this.

553
00:31:29,150 --> 00:31:31,730
One of the biological mothers who's
interviewed in that New York Times

554
00:31:31,730 --> 00:31:36,980
story I mentioned from I think 2010,
she was successful in reclaiming

555
00:31:37,010 --> 00:31:40,475
her son and to this day calls
that her son's second birthday.

556
00:31:40,835 --> 00:31:46,565
And so there are many situations like
this that are not cases of bad apples or

557
00:31:46,565 --> 00:31:49,235
exceptionally atrocious circumstances.

558
00:31:49,235 --> 00:31:53,585
This is just how adoption works, and
I think it's both okay and healthy

559
00:31:53,585 --> 00:31:54,905
and necessary to talk about that.

560
00:31:55,265 --> 00:32:03,595
Haley Radke: So our first interaction was
at a workshop that you were a part of at

561
00:32:03,595 --> 00:32:07,285
the Adoptee Literary Festival in 2025.

562
00:32:07,555 --> 00:32:07,885
Nik Chang Hoon: Yes.

563
00:32:07,945 --> 00:32:12,285
Haley Radke: And it was called
Writing Into the Void and the topic

564
00:32:12,285 --> 00:32:14,535
was writing about estrangement.

565
00:32:14,625 --> 00:32:15,195
Nik Chang Hoon: Yes.

566
00:32:15,265 --> 00:32:17,755
Haley Radke: Are you comfortable
sharing a little bit about that for your

567
00:32:17,755 --> 00:32:18,205
Nik Chang Hoon: Yeah, sure.

568
00:32:18,205 --> 00:32:19,225
Haley Radke: Personal story?

569
00:32:19,465 --> 00:32:19,555
Nik Chang Hoon: Yeah.

570
00:32:19,555 --> 00:32:20,305
Thank you for asking.

571
00:32:20,335 --> 00:32:20,635
Sure.

572
00:32:21,535 --> 00:32:25,645
Yeah, for me, about a couple years ago,
a little more, I had reached a point

573
00:32:25,645 --> 00:32:31,010
with my parents here in Minnesota that I
needed some space both to process how I

574
00:32:31,010 --> 00:32:35,510
felt a lot about our family dynamics, but
also because I was increasingly feeling

575
00:32:35,510 --> 00:32:41,690
this disconnect between the reality of
my experience and feelings around my

576
00:32:41,690 --> 00:32:44,020
adoption and my own life and theirs.

577
00:32:44,020 --> 00:32:48,550
And I think this is really common
when you have adoptees adopted

578
00:32:48,550 --> 00:32:54,160
into white families who typically
don't have a lot of exposure to the

579
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,075
country of origin of their children.

580
00:32:56,105 --> 00:32:58,925
My parents, in their
case, didn't go to Korea.

581
00:32:58,925 --> 00:33:01,935
They wouldn't have been able to afford
to had they been required, but there

582
00:33:01,935 --> 00:33:04,255
wasn't this home visit required.

583
00:33:04,255 --> 00:33:05,805
So they didn't, make the trip.

584
00:33:05,835 --> 00:33:09,075
But even if they had visited
Korea for a week or two before my

585
00:33:09,075 --> 00:33:13,685
adoption, it's still felt like to
them I just came outta nowhere and

586
00:33:14,410 --> 00:33:16,090
this is pre 9/11 when I arrived.

587
00:33:16,090 --> 00:33:19,480
So I literally just arrived at the
gate at Minneapolis St. Paul Airport.

588
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:20,500
There was a whole party.

589
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:22,810
I have it on home video,
and that's how it starts.

590
00:33:22,810 --> 00:33:27,700
And I think the part about, this
whole other country and having a

591
00:33:27,700 --> 00:33:32,320
birth mother who is a real person
and still is alive and knows who I

592
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,620
am, I just felt there, there wasn't
that sense that they understood

593
00:33:35,620 --> 00:33:38,285
or perceived that as as a reality.

594
00:33:38,345 --> 00:33:40,595
And to some extent I hadn't asked for it.

595
00:33:40,895 --> 00:33:44,675
I hadn't communicated that I really
wanted that from them, but I also

596
00:33:44,675 --> 00:33:48,255
felt like I didn't necessarily I
didn't want them to feel guilty.

597
00:33:48,255 --> 00:33:51,435
And I also didn't want, like many
adoptees, we wrestle with this a lot.

598
00:33:51,495 --> 00:33:56,155
I didn't wanna seem ungrateful and so I
had to wrestle with my own feelings and

599
00:33:56,725 --> 00:33:59,235
what was negotiable and what was not.

600
00:33:59,565 --> 00:34:03,795
And so I took some time off essentially
in communicating with them, with

601
00:34:03,795 --> 00:34:05,175
a few exceptions in between.

602
00:34:05,655 --> 00:34:09,984
And, during that time, which was, I
think, the most difficult of my life,

603
00:34:10,134 --> 00:34:11,184
I think a couple of things happened.

604
00:34:11,184 --> 00:34:14,574
First, it just allowed me the
space to, to reflect a bit more.

605
00:34:14,974 --> 00:34:17,704
Certainly many conversations
with my therapist whom I've been

606
00:34:17,704 --> 00:34:20,734
seeing for many years, an adoptee
therapist, someone who really

607
00:34:20,734 --> 00:34:22,744
understands firsthand what it's like.

608
00:34:23,284 --> 00:34:31,054
And I also felt that I needed to develop
my own set of expectations around what

609
00:34:31,054 --> 00:34:36,154
I wanted from my parents here, and also
maybe what I didn't need from them.

610
00:34:36,214 --> 00:34:40,134
And so when we talk about radical
acceptance, sometimes that's a phrase

611
00:34:40,134 --> 00:34:41,814
that gets floated around a lot.

612
00:34:41,814 --> 00:34:46,344
But I think in my case, I really did
need to reach a point of acceptance

613
00:34:46,344 --> 00:34:52,074
that felt like it's not, at times, maybe
unfair at times, maybe not something I

614
00:34:52,074 --> 00:34:57,594
wanted to do, but this past spring, I
think we organically found a path back

615
00:34:57,654 --> 00:34:59,304
into communicating with each other.

616
00:34:59,634 --> 00:35:03,129
We now are able to just have
meals together and talk.

617
00:35:03,519 --> 00:35:08,819
And I think what is clear to me now is,
sometimes as adoptees it's really hard

618
00:35:08,819 --> 00:35:14,589
to untangle what is inherently tangled
or to un mesh, what is truly a really

619
00:35:14,589 --> 00:35:20,979
enmeshed experience where we're supposed
to somehow be of service or of help

620
00:35:21,139 --> 00:35:23,119
or of joy to so many people at once.

621
00:35:23,119 --> 00:35:25,969
And sometimes you just have
to give yourself permission

622
00:35:25,969 --> 00:35:27,049
to not need to do that.

623
00:35:27,099 --> 00:35:28,479
Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that.

624
00:35:29,529 --> 00:35:31,345
Can we go to a happier note?

625
00:35:32,455 --> 00:35:33,055
Nik Chang Hoon: No, sure.

626
00:35:35,365 --> 00:35:37,285
Haley Radke: I wanted to hear
about how you met your wife.

627
00:35:38,154 --> 00:35:38,815
Nik Chang Hoon: Oh man.

628
00:35:38,815 --> 00:35:43,720
This is such, the best part, I think
about the last seven years and some

629
00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:45,820
change has been meeting my wife.

630
00:35:45,820 --> 00:35:48,110
Her name is Hyein her
Korean name is Hyein.

631
00:35:48,130 --> 00:35:50,020
She goes by Theresa in English.

632
00:35:50,020 --> 00:35:52,900
So I sometimes have to explain, I'm
not married to two different people.

633
00:35:53,970 --> 00:35:56,649
But her English name is
Theresa, Korean name is Hyein.

634
00:35:56,669 --> 00:36:00,169
And we met in 2018 and at that time.

635
00:36:00,605 --> 00:36:04,145
We were both temporarily
attending this Korean Catholic

636
00:36:04,145 --> 00:36:06,045
church here in the Twin Cities.

637
00:36:06,105 --> 00:36:09,905
And I probably sacregligiously joke
that we treated church like Tinder

638
00:36:09,905 --> 00:36:13,515
and just deleted the app afterward
because we met, we really, we took

639
00:36:13,515 --> 00:36:18,075
a walk of about, I think we walked
like a full 5K around a lake and,

640
00:36:18,145 --> 00:36:23,185
I understood that she was someone
I probably was never to meet again.

641
00:36:23,245 --> 00:36:27,385
I don't think I would be able to
find someone who had a heart like

642
00:36:27,385 --> 00:36:31,615
hers with values that we shared so
closely, and someone who was Korean.

643
00:36:31,615 --> 00:36:36,295
I had previously been in a relationship
among others where I felt that

644
00:36:36,355 --> 00:36:39,475
something was missing, and I think
I had to give myself permission over

645
00:36:39,475 --> 00:36:42,384
about a decade to understand that.

646
00:36:42,425 --> 00:36:47,945
Maybe having a partner who in some way
was Korean, but not necessarily an adoptee

647
00:36:48,345 --> 00:36:50,474
but not necessarily Korean American.

648
00:36:50,474 --> 00:36:51,915
All of those things I was sorting out.

649
00:36:51,975 --> 00:36:56,055
And she did check some of those
boxes, but she wasn't just a series

650
00:36:56,105 --> 00:36:58,055
of check marks, she was a person.

651
00:36:58,115 --> 00:37:03,615
And at first I, I think I idealized,
frankly what it would be like to date

652
00:37:03,615 --> 00:37:07,455
a Korean, she grew up in Minnesota,
but spent most of her life kind of

653
00:37:07,455 --> 00:37:11,775
flipping back and forth between suburban
Minneapolis and Seoul, outside Seoul.

654
00:37:12,345 --> 00:37:15,705
And, first I thought of course we're
gonna talk in Korean all the time.

655
00:37:15,765 --> 00:37:19,215
And in reality I was super
insecure about my Korean and we

656
00:37:19,635 --> 00:37:20,775
just spoke better in English.

657
00:37:20,775 --> 00:37:24,435
And so there were a lot of things that
I learned about myself through her.

658
00:37:24,464 --> 00:37:28,904
And also we really, I think, made a cute
couple and I enjoyed being with her.

659
00:37:28,904 --> 00:37:34,305
The first year was nuts 'cause
we made the the decision to spend

660
00:37:34,335 --> 00:37:35,625
some vacation time together.

661
00:37:35,625 --> 00:37:39,795
So within six months of dating her, I flew
to Korea with her, stayed with her grandma

662
00:37:40,125 --> 00:37:42,195
and her mom, and met her whole family.

663
00:37:42,195 --> 00:37:46,125
And all my Asian friends back home were
just like, Nik, that's like a big deal.

664
00:37:46,125 --> 00:37:46,515
And I was like.

665
00:37:47,100 --> 00:37:47,820
Nah.

666
00:37:47,820 --> 00:37:48,360
And they're like no.

667
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:49,140
That's a huge deal.

668
00:37:49,140 --> 00:37:51,660
And then we both got back from
that trip and we were like, wow,

669
00:37:51,660 --> 00:37:53,880
that was actually a big deal.

670
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:55,920
And we got married in 2021.

671
00:37:56,130 --> 00:37:59,850
We had a COVID wedding overlooking
a lake here in Minneapolis

672
00:37:59,850 --> 00:38:01,140
about 10 minutes from our house.

673
00:38:01,140 --> 00:38:04,320
And currently we live just
outside Minneapolis in a kind of

674
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:05,730
in a first ring suburb with our.

675
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,655
Golden Doodle Penny, who may have made an
auditory guest appearance once in a while.

676
00:38:10,655 --> 00:38:11,615
Haley Radke: She
absolutely made appearance.

677
00:38:11,730 --> 00:38:12,960
I love the name Penny.

678
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,640
Listen that I, that's what I
wanted to name my first dog.

679
00:38:18,990 --> 00:38:21,390
Nik Chang Hoon: We're trying
to maybe do a second dog named

680
00:38:21,390 --> 00:38:22,770
Nikel or quarter something.

681
00:38:22,770 --> 00:38:23,820
Haley Radke: Aw, that's so cute.

682
00:38:23,820 --> 00:38:24,600
Nik Chang Hoon: One is enough for now.

683
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:24,720
Haley Radke: Cute.

684
00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:25,260
That's so cute.

685
00:38:25,620 --> 00:38:26,040
Okay.

686
00:38:26,100 --> 00:38:27,120
Congratulations.

687
00:38:27,300 --> 00:38:29,160
Can I ask you an intrusive question?

688
00:38:29,370 --> 00:38:30,360
Nik Chang Hoon: Oh, intrusive.

689
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:30,870
Go.

690
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:32,220
As intrusive as it gets.

691
00:38:35,270 --> 00:38:38,309
Haley Radke: I know a lot of
adoptees who are people of color

692
00:38:38,349 --> 00:38:39,809
adopted into white families.

693
00:38:39,869 --> 00:38:39,959
Nik Chang Hoon: Yeah.

694
00:38:40,989 --> 00:38:43,720
Haley Radke: Often end
up with white partners.

695
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:44,319
Nik Chang Hoon: Yeah.

696
00:38:44,979 --> 00:38:50,859
Haley Radke: Did you feel some kind of
way, like you weren't quote unquote,

697
00:38:50,859 --> 00:38:54,280
like good enough to be with her?

698
00:38:54,310 --> 00:38:57,910
Like you weren't Korean enough,
you weren't like, did you have

699
00:38:57,910 --> 00:38:59,990
to process through any of that.

700
00:38:59,990 --> 00:39:00,890
Nik Chang Hoon: I love talking about this.

701
00:39:00,890 --> 00:39:01,940
This is not intrusive at all.

702
00:39:01,940 --> 00:39:02,480
I think it's.

703
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:02,900
Haley Radke: I'm sorry.

704
00:39:02,900 --> 00:39:05,780
It is intrusive and I, thanks for sharing.

705
00:39:05,990 --> 00:39:08,960
Nik Chang Hoon: I think it's
really important to talk about

706
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:14,780
relationships in intersection with
adoption and cultural identity.

707
00:39:14,780 --> 00:39:19,280
So for me, I had dated across the
whole spectrum of culture identity.

708
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:20,840
I had dated white people.

709
00:39:20,990 --> 00:39:25,880
I had been in relationships with other
Asians that weren't Korean, but Hmong

710
00:39:25,910 --> 00:39:30,140
or Southeast Asian tried immediately
before my wife tried dating a Korean

711
00:39:30,170 --> 00:39:32,210
adoptee that turned out to be disastrous.

712
00:39:32,210 --> 00:39:36,799
And I think the most, I think pivotal
decision I made from a dating standpoint

713
00:39:36,799 --> 00:39:40,490
was when I realized that dating a Korean
and potentially marrying a Korean was

714
00:39:40,490 --> 00:39:45,470
important to me and my white friends,
many of them did not understand that they

715
00:39:45,470 --> 00:39:52,130
thought either that I was being racist or
that I was misguided and oversimplifying,

716
00:39:52,190 --> 00:39:53,450
you know what, why would that matter?

717
00:39:53,510 --> 00:39:54,820
Is the question I would often get.

718
00:39:55,180 --> 00:39:58,240
And my Korean adoptee friends were
just, they understood immediately.

719
00:39:58,240 --> 00:39:58,720
They're like, yep.

720
00:39:59,710 --> 00:40:03,030
We've had so much stolen from us
and we're not, I would say I wasn't

721
00:40:03,030 --> 00:40:05,040
just someone that stayed around.

722
00:40:05,100 --> 00:40:07,260
I did study Korean extensively.

723
00:40:07,260 --> 00:40:08,430
I lived in Korea.

724
00:40:08,460 --> 00:40:10,740
I thought I was gonna be there
forever at one point and so I

725
00:40:10,740 --> 00:40:15,060
think it was important to me that
I at least try to date a Korean.

726
00:40:15,060 --> 00:40:19,560
And so I distinctly remember I was
with Hyein in her living room at the

727
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,470
time, at her apartment in Minneapolis,
and she was watching a Korean variety

728
00:40:22,470 --> 00:40:28,050
show and I just got extremely emotional
and insecure and I was like, I'm so

729
00:40:28,050 --> 00:40:33,450
sorry, but could I actually ask you
to turn on the English subtitles?

730
00:40:33,450 --> 00:40:38,160
And until that point, I had taken so much
pride in not needing them or having Korean

731
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:42,960
subtitles 'cause my Korean is decent
enough, but I, she was laughing at things

732
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:47,525
that I wasn't understanding and she was
really apologetic and I was like no this

733
00:40:47,525 --> 00:40:49,805
isn't about like you doing anything wrong.

734
00:40:49,805 --> 00:40:53,405
This is more just about me needing to
get over my own pride and insecurity that

735
00:40:53,405 --> 00:40:59,295
even after, I took out more than $10,000
in student loans to learn in Korean.

736
00:40:59,355 --> 00:41:00,225
I didn't need the credits.

737
00:41:00,225 --> 00:41:01,305
I just wanted to do it.

738
00:41:01,545 --> 00:41:02,505
I lived in Korea.

739
00:41:02,505 --> 00:41:04,185
I studied, even while living in Korea.

740
00:41:04,185 --> 00:41:08,505
I studied so hard and to ask for
English subtitles was something

741
00:41:08,505 --> 00:41:11,625
that took a lot of humility for me.

742
00:41:11,625 --> 00:41:15,010
And I think that was a breakthrough
moment where we both realized we

743
00:41:15,010 --> 00:41:16,300
could be vulnerable with each other.

744
00:41:16,630 --> 00:41:20,770
And where I also realized over time that,
look, she lives here too, in, Minnesota.

745
00:41:20,770 --> 00:41:26,650
She's not necessarily aware of the exact
trend that's going on right now in Korea.

746
00:41:26,650 --> 00:41:29,950
If you blink, the trends change
in Korea, even if you live there.

747
00:41:29,950 --> 00:41:33,700
So over time, I think it also helped
that I understood that we were both

748
00:41:33,700 --> 00:41:38,590
in this together, meaning that we both
felt estranged from our own country of

749
00:41:38,590 --> 00:41:43,550
origin, and sometimes we needed to go
back to recharge and fill our cup and

750
00:41:43,550 --> 00:41:48,110
our information bank with all the things
that are, in vogue at that moment.

751
00:41:48,140 --> 00:41:50,420
'Cause otherwise you're just
gonna feel outdated every single

752
00:41:50,420 --> 00:41:53,060
time, which is inevitable.

753
00:41:53,060 --> 00:41:53,630
But we try.

754
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,130
Haley Radke: And imagine getting
to my age, we're only, I think

755
00:41:58,130 --> 00:41:59,030
we're only a few years apart.

756
00:41:59,390 --> 00:42:03,710
And when you have if you ever
choose to have children, my

757
00:42:03,710 --> 00:42:05,540
teenagers remind me that I am.

758
00:42:06,710 --> 00:42:07,880
I have, I say teenagers.

759
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,500
I have one teenager and they remind
me how uncool and how I don't get it.

760
00:42:12,190 --> 00:42:13,480
Nik Chang Hoon: I feel
like that's their job.

761
00:42:13,690 --> 00:42:16,120
I feel like they're not doing their
job, and they, if they don't do

762
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:17,090
that, but they don't make it easy.

763
00:42:18,490 --> 00:42:21,819
Haley Radke: And as someone who's
chronically online to keep up.

764
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:24,790
Nik Chang Hoon: I'm now
known for my dad jokes.

765
00:42:24,790 --> 00:42:24,940
Haley Radke: All right.

766
00:42:25,029 --> 00:42:28,089
Nik Chang Hoon: And that's, I've
reached radical acceptance about that.

767
00:42:29,589 --> 00:42:30,220
Haley Radke: I love that.

768
00:42:30,250 --> 00:42:31,839
Okay, let's pivot.

769
00:42:31,899 --> 00:42:33,705
I. Oh my goodness.

770
00:42:34,365 --> 00:42:38,384
As transparent as Nik is, has
been with us in this interview.

771
00:42:38,865 --> 00:42:41,024
Your writing is so much more.

772
00:42:41,075 --> 00:42:41,345
Nik Chang Hoon: Oh, thank you.

773
00:42:41,495 --> 00:42:46,475
Haley Radke: And in particular, I
love this piece you have out in the

774
00:42:46,475 --> 00:42:52,835
Kenyon Review, Emotionally Self-aware,
Adoptive Parents Contract for Services.

775
00:42:53,500 --> 00:42:54,725
It's so brilliant.

776
00:42:54,725 --> 00:42:55,970
I love it so much.

777
00:42:56,685 --> 00:42:57,075
Nik Chang Hoon: Thank you.

778
00:42:57,150 --> 00:42:57,360
Thank you.

779
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:58,920
Haley Radke: I've read
it like 10 times now.

780
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:00,720
It's so good.

781
00:43:00,780 --> 00:43:01,740
I don't know.

782
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,420
I know you're, you have poetry,
you have essays, you have a

783
00:43:05,420 --> 00:43:06,680
bunch of different pieces.

784
00:43:07,310 --> 00:43:12,350
But this one in particular I think
will really speak to adoptees and

785
00:43:12,380 --> 00:43:13,940
we'll link to it in the show notes.

786
00:43:13,970 --> 00:43:18,620
But yeah I don't know what's
a good part that, do you wanna

787
00:43:18,620 --> 00:43:20,600
describe it to us perhaps?

788
00:43:20,899 --> 00:43:21,259
Nik Chang Hoon: Yeah.

789
00:43:21,259 --> 00:43:29,399
So this piece is written as a legal
contract and the kind of premise is that

790
00:43:29,399 --> 00:43:35,430
one party, the adoptee, is basically
trying to strike up an agreement with

791
00:43:35,430 --> 00:43:40,404
their adoptive parents to do things
like engage together in family therapy

792
00:43:40,645 --> 00:43:46,205
to understand that discussions around
adoption may involve things like

793
00:43:46,205 --> 00:43:51,155
privilege, whether it's white privilege,
I say Catholic guilt privilege, small

794
00:43:51,155 --> 00:43:54,125
town Minnesotan, passive aggressively,
self aware of it, like privilege, and

795
00:43:54,125 --> 00:43:57,775
there's all kinds of tongue in cheek
references, but I think the piece is

796
00:43:57,835 --> 00:44:02,480
written as a lyric or a hermit crab
essay, which means it takes on a sort

797
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:06,880
of a non-traditional container and the
container would be a legal contract.

798
00:44:06,970 --> 00:44:13,080
And the context of this piece is that two
summers ago I was attending my first ever

799
00:44:13,380 --> 00:44:15,510
writing conference a writing workshop.

800
00:44:15,510 --> 00:44:19,860
So it was the Kenyon Review Adult
Residential Writers Workshop that occurs

801
00:44:20,295 --> 00:44:26,415
twice a summer in Gambier, Ohio at Kenyon
College, and the prompt was write a lyric

802
00:44:26,415 --> 00:44:28,565
essay that takes on an unexpected form.

803
00:44:28,595 --> 00:44:33,930
And at Kenyon the way it works is you
generate writing from a topic that

804
00:44:33,930 --> 00:44:37,980
morning and 24 hours later, back in
workshop, you're sharing the piece

805
00:44:37,980 --> 00:44:39,570
that you wrote over the last day.

806
00:44:39,570 --> 00:44:40,680
And so it's really intense.

807
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,460
It's generative, intense, lovely,
and all those things at once.

808
00:44:45,180 --> 00:44:50,160
So I wrote this piece at a moment of
deep, I think, grief and frustration

809
00:44:50,190 --> 00:44:53,430
within the estrangement that I had
initiated with my adoptive parents.

810
00:44:53,430 --> 00:44:58,110
And this was essentially what spilled
out, and so the piece is satirical.

811
00:44:58,110 --> 00:45:02,100
It is meant to be humorous, but
when I, anytime I read it, whether

812
00:45:02,100 --> 00:45:05,850
it's to myself or out loud, I
mostly what I feel is sadness.

813
00:45:05,910 --> 00:45:09,090
And so I wrote that piece
as part of that workshop.

814
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:13,440
I read it out loud a couple nights
later with the help of a lot of folks

815
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,340
cheering me on, and I did not know
it at the time, but the editor of the

816
00:45:17,340 --> 00:45:21,420
Kenyon Review, Nicole Terez Dutton, was
in the audience and after my delivery

817
00:45:21,570 --> 00:45:26,189
approached my writing instructor
Rajiv Mohabir, and asked him to ask

818
00:45:26,189 --> 00:45:31,544
me to submit it, which was itself
just a ridiculous thing to happen,

819
00:45:31,544 --> 00:45:33,164
like I would never have expected that.

820
00:45:33,224 --> 00:45:37,234
And so I submitted it that September,
and just as I touched down in Los Angeles

821
00:45:37,234 --> 00:45:41,725
this past March to attend AWP, which
is a writer's conference that occurs

822
00:45:41,725 --> 00:45:45,895
every year, I received an email that
said it had been accepted and it just

823
00:45:45,895 --> 00:45:47,544
came out in the mail a few weeks ago.

824
00:45:47,544 --> 00:45:51,384
So it's this surreal thing now,
where to see something you wrote,

825
00:45:51,484 --> 00:45:56,134
on your laptop in this polished
dorm room at Kenyon College is now.

826
00:45:56,540 --> 00:45:58,700
In the Kenyon Review, and I
have no idea what that means.

827
00:45:58,714 --> 00:46:01,754
I still am in disbelief
anytime I think about it.

828
00:46:02,415 --> 00:46:03,855
Haley Radke: It's a
real thing in the world.

829
00:46:03,915 --> 00:46:04,395
I love it.

830
00:46:04,399 --> 00:46:04,910
The other thing that.

831
00:46:04,910 --> 00:46:05,589
Nik Chang Hoon: It's a real thing.

832
00:46:06,810 --> 00:46:10,694
Haley Radke: The other thing I'll link
to the piece that won the Annie Dillard

833
00:46:10,694 --> 00:46:16,424
Prize in 2024 is Abandoned Supposings
A Letter to My Non Father's Silence.

834
00:46:16,605 --> 00:46:20,714
So for folks who are sad that we
didn't talk too much about your father

835
00:46:20,714 --> 00:46:25,305
today, they can read that in Nik,
what did you wanna recommend to us?

836
00:46:26,205 --> 00:46:29,535
Nik Chang Hoon: Oh there's so much
that I could recommend, but I think

837
00:46:29,565 --> 00:46:32,445
more than anything else I've been
thinking about as someone who writes

838
00:46:32,815 --> 00:46:39,225
memoir, what it is about the genre of
memoir or just that container of memoir

839
00:46:39,225 --> 00:46:43,215
that can best reflect the adoption
experience and so as someone who's

840
00:46:43,935 --> 00:46:45,854
painstakingly trying to write a memoir.

841
00:46:45,854 --> 00:46:49,455
I have the fortune and privilege
of learning from the pros, and one

842
00:46:49,455 --> 00:46:52,995
of those pros is Shannon Gibney who
lives right here in Minneapolis who

843
00:46:52,995 --> 00:46:57,734
wrote a speculative memoir that won
the Michael L. Printz Award and has

844
00:46:57,734 --> 00:46:59,475
been out for almost two years now.

845
00:46:59,475 --> 00:47:03,854
It will be two years this coming January
three, actually this coming January, 2026.

846
00:47:03,854 --> 00:47:07,665
So it's called The Girl I Am Was
I Never Will Be A Speculative

847
00:47:07,665 --> 00:47:09,404
Memoir of Transracial Adoption.

848
00:47:09,825 --> 00:47:15,944
And what I think is really helpful
and instructive about the way Shannon

849
00:47:16,095 --> 00:47:22,489
writes, both in general and specifically
in this memoir is that as adoptees we,

850
00:47:22,589 --> 00:47:24,479
our lives are inherently speculative.

851
00:47:24,689 --> 00:47:28,680
Actually, Alice Stephens, another
adoptee writer, just spoke at

852
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:33,029
AWP in a, in an adoptee panel in
March, and she said something just

853
00:47:33,029 --> 00:47:36,180
earth shattering to me, which is
that adoption itself is a fiction.

854
00:47:36,749 --> 00:47:42,599
And I think what Shannon's memoir
teaches is how speculation sometimes

855
00:47:42,599 --> 00:47:44,579
is the only option adoptees have.

856
00:47:45,305 --> 00:47:50,104
Whether we're transracial adoptees
born in Korea, like me or someone

857
00:47:50,104 --> 00:47:55,384
who was adopted domestically and is
able to speak to that experience like

858
00:47:55,384 --> 00:48:00,614
Shannon, in both cases or in all cases,
all adoptees I think by definition,

859
00:48:01,274 --> 00:48:03,764
wonder, speculate, and imagine.

860
00:48:04,419 --> 00:48:08,740
Sometimes it's because that's what
we're asked to do, but often it's

861
00:48:08,740 --> 00:48:09,970
because we have no other choice.

862
00:48:10,060 --> 00:48:14,649
And so I think the most real
non-fiction approach is to writing

863
00:48:14,649 --> 00:48:18,189
about one's adoption experience
often involve the imagination.

864
00:48:18,669 --> 00:48:22,540
And so what I think is fun artistically
about writing into the adoption

865
00:48:22,540 --> 00:48:28,309
experience, even though it does involve
a lot of hardship and tears, is that

866
00:48:28,459 --> 00:48:30,769
you can play around a lot with form.

867
00:48:31,164 --> 00:48:35,534
You can play around with the meaning
of reality and what reality is and I

868
00:48:35,534 --> 00:48:40,034
think most, if not all adoptees would
agree that adoption is inherently an

869
00:48:40,034 --> 00:48:43,874
exercise in entertaining the multiverse.

870
00:48:43,904 --> 00:48:49,004
It's entertaining the multiple ways
that we might have ended up the multiple

871
00:48:49,004 --> 00:48:53,394
selves we might or could have been and
that I think is what Shannon does so

872
00:48:53,394 --> 00:48:55,584
well and so that is my recommendation.

873
00:48:55,704 --> 00:48:58,014
The Girl I Am Was and Never Will Be.

874
00:48:58,944 --> 00:48:59,364
Haley Radke: Love it.

875
00:48:59,994 --> 00:49:02,164
We did a book club with
Shannon in deep dive.

876
00:49:02,164 --> 00:49:02,524
Yes.

877
00:49:02,524 --> 00:49:03,154
So good.

878
00:49:03,154 --> 00:49:03,394
Love.

879
00:49:03,394 --> 00:49:04,054
That's a great one.

880
00:49:04,054 --> 00:49:06,304
Thanks for bringing it back up to us.

881
00:49:06,614 --> 00:49:08,714
I can't wait for your memoir
to be out in the world.

882
00:49:08,714 --> 00:49:13,394
Nik, where can we follow along with
you online to be informed of all

883
00:49:13,394 --> 00:49:15,914
your upcoming writerly projects?

884
00:49:16,724 --> 00:49:17,564
Nik Chang Hoon: Thank you for asking.

885
00:49:17,564 --> 00:49:20,724
You can follow me on
Instagram @nikchanghoon.

886
00:49:20,744 --> 00:49:29,524
That's N-I-K-C-H-A-N-G-H-O-O-N
or my website nikchanghoon.com.

887
00:49:29,874 --> 00:49:34,519
And I think, more than anything else, I'm
just grateful and just so fortunate to be

888
00:49:34,519 --> 00:49:40,549
in conversation with you and so many other
adoptees who are I think, doing the thing

889
00:49:40,549 --> 00:49:45,079
that we all need to do, which is speak
to our experiences and center our voices.

890
00:49:45,079 --> 00:49:47,629
So thank you for producing
this amazing podcast.

891
00:49:47,629 --> 00:49:51,379
I think it's one of the most essential
things we can do as adoptees is

892
00:49:51,429 --> 00:49:52,809
to have conversations like this.

893
00:49:53,889 --> 00:49:54,309
Haley Radke: Thank you.

894
00:49:54,309 --> 00:49:54,969
I agree.

895
00:49:56,319 --> 00:49:58,179
What a delight to get
to talk to you today.

896
00:49:58,239 --> 00:49:58,869
Thank you, Nik.

897
00:49:59,289 --> 00:50:00,039
Nik Chang Hoon: Thank you, Haley.

898
00:50:02,799 --> 00:50:07,329
Haley Radke: I love hearing about the
projects people are working on, and I'm

899
00:50:07,329 --> 00:50:13,779
so looking forward to getting to read
Nik's memoir when it is out in the world.

900
00:50:14,389 --> 00:50:18,409
I'm also working on a project
you may have heard about it.

901
00:50:18,409 --> 00:50:22,999
I am working on is working title's
called On Adoption, and it's going to

902
00:50:22,999 --> 00:50:30,799
be a brand new investigative podcast
where I have been interviewing multiple

903
00:50:30,829 --> 00:50:36,709
mothers who have relinquished their
children for adoption, and we are talking

904
00:50:36,709 --> 00:50:39,334
about the impact it's had on them.

905
00:50:40,344 --> 00:50:45,834
We are talking about the impact
adoption has had on adult adoptees,

906
00:50:46,464 --> 00:50:52,884
and we are really going to tell
the full story of adoption.

907
00:50:53,424 --> 00:50:58,224
If this sounds interesting to you, if you
would like to support it, you can go to

908
00:50:58,284 --> 00:51:04,134
onadoption.net for more information and
we'll also have links in the show notes

909
00:51:04,134 --> 00:51:06,744
for how you can be a part of this project.

910
00:51:07,564 --> 00:51:09,154
Thank you so much for listening.

911
00:51:09,514 --> 00:51:15,154
We are going to be back in
January with brand new episodes.

912
00:51:15,574 --> 00:51:22,534
I hope you have a lovely winter break
and we will talk to you very soon.