1 00:00:08,383 --> 00:00:09,551 Overload. 2 00:00:09,551 --> 00:00:12,303 Stress. Anxiety. Burnout. 3 00:00:12,303 --> 00:00:15,515 Our guest today wants to help us understand these outcomes 4 00:00:15,765 --> 00:00:18,393 and see how they don't have to happen. 5 00:00:18,393 --> 00:00:20,437 You don't have to excuse me. 6 00:00:20,437 --> 00:00:23,398 You don't want to overdraft your checking account. 7 00:00:23,398 --> 00:00:27,819 And today we'll talk about how to avoid an emotional overdraft. 8 00:00:27,944 --> 00:00:30,947 Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, 9 00:00:31,031 --> 00:00:35,452 where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally 10 00:00:35,744 --> 00:00:38,621 to lead more effectively and make a bigger, positive difference 11 00:00:38,621 --> 00:00:41,291 for their teams, organizations and the world. 12 00:00:41,291 --> 00:00:45,795 If you are listening to this podcast, you could be with us in the future. 13 00:00:45,795 --> 00:00:48,840 Live on your favorite social media channel. 14 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,635 You can find out when those are going to happen and how you can get involved 15 00:00:52,635 --> 00:00:56,639 by joining us on our Facebook or LinkedIn groups. 16 00:00:56,639 --> 00:01:01,227 Just two of the social platforms that we live stream these on. 17 00:01:01,269 --> 00:01:04,981 Just go to remarkable podcast.com/facebook 18 00:01:05,273 --> 00:01:08,318 or remarkable podcast.com/linked in. 19 00:01:08,610 --> 00:01:11,654 To learn more get connected so you can join us in the future. 20 00:01:11,654 --> 00:01:13,656 I hope you'll do exactly that. 21 00:01:13,656 --> 00:01:16,910 Now I want you to know that today's episode is brought to 22 00:01:16,910 --> 00:01:21,998 you by, my latest book, Flexible Leadership 23 00:01:21,998 --> 00:01:25,794 Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence. 24 00:01:25,794 --> 00:01:30,090 It's time to recognize that styles can get in our way, 25 00:01:30,215 --> 00:01:34,511 and that following our strengths might not always be the best approach 26 00:01:34,928 --> 00:01:37,597 in a world that is more complex and uncertain than ever. 27 00:01:37,597 --> 00:01:40,767 Leaders need a new perspective and set of tools to create 28 00:01:41,059 --> 00:01:44,062 great results for their organizations and team members. 29 00:01:44,062 --> 00:01:48,608 That's what flexible leadership provides you, and that's why I wrote it. 30 00:01:48,983 --> 00:01:52,070 You can learn more and order your copy now 31 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,323 at remarkable podcast.com/flexible. 32 00:01:55,490 --> 00:01:56,908 I hope you will do that. 33 00:01:56,908 --> 00:02:00,912 And then I hope you will stay right where you are. 34 00:02:00,954 --> 00:02:03,373 As I bring in my guest, Andy Brown, 35 00:02:04,415 --> 00:02:07,418 who has me tell you a little about Andy before we dive in. 36 00:02:07,919 --> 00:02:10,839 He has over 30 years experience as an award winning advisor 37 00:02:10,839 --> 00:02:13,925 and coach in people based businesses. 38 00:02:13,967 --> 00:02:17,053 He's also a podcast host and the author of the Amazon 39 00:02:17,262 --> 00:02:21,391 number one bestseller, The Emotional Overdraft 40 00:02:21,432 --> 00:02:25,436 ten Simple Changes for Balancing Business Success and Well-Being. 41 00:02:25,728 --> 00:02:29,232 It's a book for entrepreneurs and leaders and founders that articulates 42 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,611 the often overlooked mental and physical costs of leadership. 43 00:02:33,987 --> 00:02:37,574 If you're here, you've probably experienced some of those, 44 00:02:38,116 --> 00:02:39,826 which is why I have Andy with me. 45 00:02:39,826 --> 00:02:41,744 Andy Joy, thanks for joining us. 46 00:02:41,744 --> 00:02:43,955 So glad that you're here. 47 00:02:43,955 --> 00:02:47,458 Thanks for having me, Kevin, and to be on your podcast. 48 00:02:47,876 --> 00:02:51,546 I was listening to one a while ago with Steve and forget his surname, 49 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,425 and he was talking about the transforming stress into hardiness. 50 00:02:56,217 --> 00:03:00,555 That was I thought, that's my world, that this Kevin is in my world. 51 00:03:00,555 --> 00:03:02,682 And at that point, I thought, I'm excited to talk to you. 52 00:03:02,682 --> 00:03:04,726 And, by the way, I'd recommend that podcast. 53 00:03:04,726 --> 00:03:06,269 It was a few, a few ago now, but, 54 00:03:07,353 --> 00:03:08,563 really enjoyable. 55 00:03:08,563 --> 00:03:11,024 So, delighted to be here. 56 00:03:11,024 --> 00:03:12,275 I'm glad to have you. 57 00:03:12,275 --> 00:03:15,069 And, we'll make sure that we. I'm not 100% sure. 58 00:03:15,069 --> 00:03:18,781 I remember either, but I'll make sure that we have that in the 59 00:03:20,241 --> 00:03:23,244 show notes for all of you so you can connect to that. 60 00:03:23,578 --> 00:03:26,414 So you've written this great book, which really is 61 00:03:26,414 --> 00:03:29,542 about this idea of an emotional overdraft. 62 00:03:29,542 --> 00:03:30,210 I want to get to that. 63 00:03:30,210 --> 00:03:33,213 But before we do that, I really want 64 00:03:33,755 --> 00:03:35,715 to just have you tell us 65 00:03:35,715 --> 00:03:38,718 a little bit more about the journey that gets you to this point. 66 00:03:39,010 --> 00:03:40,345 Because you've been in business, 67 00:03:40,345 --> 00:03:43,348 you've been advising leaders and all the sorts of things. 68 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,227 How do you end up talking about this, 69 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,021 and how do you end up writing a book about this? 70 00:03:51,898 --> 00:03:54,901 So two very different questions in a way. 71 00:03:55,610 --> 00:03:56,527 I ended up here. 72 00:03:56,527 --> 00:03:59,530 I was, I started off life as a researcher. 73 00:04:00,198 --> 00:04:03,284 Paid my way through university, doing that. 74 00:04:03,534 --> 00:04:07,413 And, that led me into advertising and marketing. 75 00:04:07,914 --> 00:04:10,917 I end up, on, 76 00:04:10,917 --> 00:04:14,754 on the board of a advertising agency, set up my own business. 77 00:04:14,754 --> 00:04:16,589 I bought, I was sold 78 00:04:16,589 --> 00:04:20,718 two businesses once quite successfully and once very not successfully. 79 00:04:20,718 --> 00:04:24,347 So I've experienced both sides of building and selling a business. 80 00:04:26,432 --> 00:04:29,519 I, was on the board of of 81 00:04:30,937 --> 00:04:33,314 the largest independent agency in the world 82 00:04:33,314 --> 00:04:36,317 for a while, which is called essence before it got bought out. 83 00:04:37,277 --> 00:04:39,404 And I've run my businesses, so I've, I've, 84 00:04:39,404 --> 00:04:42,490 I've got a lot of experience running businesses, 85 00:04:42,490 --> 00:04:46,661 relatively small businesses as sub sub 150 people, typically, 86 00:04:49,205 --> 00:04:52,208 and I suppose it was ten years ago I was the MD, 87 00:04:52,792 --> 00:04:55,795 managing director of, of a business 88 00:04:56,045 --> 00:05:00,008 and a friend of mine said a coach friend of mine said, you know, you could 89 00:05:00,008 --> 00:05:03,886 you could be doing consultancy rather than working one company at a time. 90 00:05:03,886 --> 00:05:06,264 You could work with a handful of companies, 91 00:05:06,264 --> 00:05:08,975 and then you kind of have more impact. 92 00:05:08,975 --> 00:05:10,643 And it sort of got in my head. 93 00:05:10,643 --> 00:05:14,105 And I thought about it over Christmas that year, and he introduced me 94 00:05:14,105 --> 00:05:17,108 to someone, and I ended up working for a consulting firm, 95 00:05:17,233 --> 00:05:21,112 mergers and acquisitions consulting firm, which was fascinating, 96 00:05:21,112 --> 00:05:26,534 and I learned a lot, but M&A was primarily just about money. 97 00:05:26,826 --> 00:05:30,455 It was just about how quickly can we get this business to to a sale, 98 00:05:30,455 --> 00:05:33,207 and how quickly can we turn that into fee. And that wasn't 99 00:05:34,250 --> 00:05:35,918 I wasn't what I was therefore really. 100 00:05:35,918 --> 00:05:38,921 So I left it six years ago to set up my own business. 101 00:05:38,921 --> 00:05:42,675 And I work with a handful of of really great communications 102 00:05:42,675 --> 00:05:45,762 and research businesses to help them become more valuable. 103 00:05:45,762 --> 00:05:47,597 And maybe they'll sell, maybe they won't. 104 00:05:47,597 --> 00:05:49,807 Maybe they'll 105 00:05:49,807 --> 00:05:53,728 acquire somebody else, maybe they'll raise funds, maybe it gives them options. 106 00:05:53,728 --> 00:05:57,065 But if you become a more valuable business, then you have choices. 107 00:05:57,065 --> 00:06:00,860 If you if you want to grow, to sell, then you can find 108 00:06:00,860 --> 00:06:01,986 the market's moved around you. 109 00:06:01,986 --> 00:06:04,989 So so my day job is advising companies on, 110 00:06:05,865 --> 00:06:08,868 building a more successful and valuable business. 111 00:06:09,660 --> 00:06:11,496 Okay, so. That's how I got here. 112 00:06:11,496 --> 00:06:13,581 That's my sort of background I suppose. Right. 113 00:06:13,581 --> 00:06:16,084 But in terms of emotional overdraft. Exactly. 114 00:06:17,293 --> 00:06:20,713 I've been on boards since I've run businesses, 115 00:06:20,713 --> 00:06:24,759 been a leader owned businesses for, I don't know, 116 00:06:24,759 --> 00:06:27,762 maybe 35 since the 90s. 117 00:06:29,389 --> 00:06:31,391 And I've been consulting with 118 00:06:31,391 --> 00:06:34,310 multiple businesses for the last 7 or 8 years. 119 00:06:34,310 --> 00:06:37,647 And what I was observing was, 120 00:06:38,731 --> 00:06:39,690 I've got a business degree, 121 00:06:39,690 --> 00:06:42,693 I've got I've done all those things, the classical stuff. 122 00:06:42,819 --> 00:06:45,696 The control of a business was typically around what, 123 00:06:45,696 --> 00:06:48,699 what my clients now would call the financials. 124 00:06:48,741 --> 00:06:51,744 Every time we have a board meeting, we start with the financials. 125 00:06:52,495 --> 00:06:55,123 And what I realized was that the financials were 126 00:06:55,123 --> 00:06:57,917 actually the thing that we could measure. 127 00:06:57,917 --> 00:07:00,920 There were lots of things going on that we couldn't measure. 128 00:07:01,504 --> 00:07:03,423 But because it's difficult to measure, we don't talk. 129 00:07:03,423 --> 00:07:06,342 We don't talk about those. We talk. We talk about how we. 130 00:07:06,342 --> 00:07:07,885 Yeah, we can talk about profitability. 131 00:07:07,885 --> 00:07:10,138 We can talk about revenue growth or decline. 132 00:07:10,138 --> 00:07:12,056 We can talk about staff churn. 133 00:07:12,056 --> 00:07:13,808 We can talk about retention rates. 134 00:07:13,808 --> 00:07:15,518 We can talk about utilization. 135 00:07:15,518 --> 00:07:17,562 All the stuff we talk about in the board meeting. 136 00:07:17,562 --> 00:07:21,566 But there's some other stuff going on in businesses which isn't easy to measure. 137 00:07:23,109 --> 00:07:24,735 And I started noticing it. 138 00:07:24,735 --> 00:07:28,448 And what it was was I have now called an emotional overdraft. 139 00:07:29,490 --> 00:07:31,534 And I can get to why I called it that in the end. 140 00:07:31,534 --> 00:07:34,537 But this behavior, 141 00:07:34,745 --> 00:07:38,749 I summarize it by saying is when people subsidize the success of their business 142 00:07:39,125 --> 00:07:43,421 at their own personal, mental or physical cost, I'll say it again. 143 00:07:43,421 --> 00:07:45,131 So you're subsidizing the success 144 00:07:45,131 --> 00:07:48,217 of your business at your own mental or physical cost. 145 00:07:49,343 --> 00:07:51,804 And most people are saying that to 146 00:07:51,804 --> 00:07:54,807 take a moment, take a beat and then go, 147 00:07:54,849 --> 00:07:57,685 oh God, yeah, yeah, I recognize that. 148 00:07:57,685 --> 00:07:59,228 I recognize that 149 00:07:59,228 --> 00:08:02,231 I did some research, of course, because I'm a researcher by training. 150 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,443 I spoke to to more than 50 businesses. 151 00:08:06,611 --> 00:08:08,196 And all of them. Spoiler. 152 00:08:08,196 --> 00:08:10,781 Sorry if you can. If you get a by the book, here's a spoiler alert. 153 00:08:10,781 --> 00:08:13,284 Everyone has an emotional overdraft. Thank you for that, Kevin. 154 00:08:14,911 --> 00:08:16,204 To some extent or another, 155 00:08:16,204 --> 00:08:19,290 everyone has an emotional overdraft and that's what I call this things. 156 00:08:19,582 --> 00:08:22,627 So with an overdraft, a financial overdraft, 157 00:08:23,836 --> 00:08:27,381 it's it gives you the capacity to go beyond your, 158 00:08:27,965 --> 00:08:30,635 the money you actually have 159 00:08:30,635 --> 00:08:31,552 for the short. 160 00:08:31,552 --> 00:08:34,180 For short, for short term. 161 00:08:34,180 --> 00:08:36,390 To do something that you might really need to do. 162 00:08:36,390 --> 00:08:38,726 So it might be to pay a big unexpected bill. 163 00:08:38,726 --> 00:08:40,478 It might be to, 164 00:08:40,478 --> 00:08:43,564 because you haven't really budgeted very well that month or whatever, but you, 165 00:08:43,648 --> 00:08:47,151 you go into overdraft, you, you have the facility, 166 00:08:47,151 --> 00:08:49,820 it cost you a lot of money, and then you go back out to the facility 167 00:08:49,820 --> 00:08:52,406 because it's the stupidest borrowing you can. 168 00:08:52,406 --> 00:08:53,741 You can have, you know, 169 00:08:53,741 --> 00:08:57,912 if it was longer term for a car, you get some sort of structured financing, 170 00:08:57,912 --> 00:09:00,915 you wouldn't buy a car and an overdraft, certainly in a long term. 171 00:09:01,707 --> 00:09:04,043 And an emotional overdraft is the same thing. 172 00:09:04,043 --> 00:09:07,964 You I am absolutely not saying that we shouldn't be committed 173 00:09:07,964 --> 00:09:11,175 to our businesses, that we shouldn't go beyond 174 00:09:12,009 --> 00:09:16,180 go above and beyond, work longer hours, be more committed, feel it more personally. 175 00:09:16,639 --> 00:09:19,642 All those things that I've done myself. 176 00:09:19,809 --> 00:09:23,354 But I am saying that if you stay in that state for any extended 177 00:09:23,354 --> 00:09:26,399 period of time, it's too expensive either 178 00:09:26,399 --> 00:09:29,402 physically and or mentally. 179 00:09:29,527 --> 00:09:32,280 And where it can lead to is stress. 180 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:37,326 It can lead to, physical challenges, which you might not even recognize. 181 00:09:37,326 --> 00:09:40,830 You might even notice, it can have impacts on your family. 182 00:09:40,830 --> 00:09:43,833 It can have impacts on your community, your friends. 183 00:09:44,083 --> 00:09:45,710 It ripples out everywhere. 184 00:09:45,710 --> 00:09:51,382 So I thought it was a really good analogy for we understand that an overdraft is 185 00:09:51,382 --> 00:09:55,511 is a good and necessary thing sometimes, but we don't stay in it. 186 00:09:55,511 --> 00:09:59,348 And if you can go into your emotional overdraft, you can do what you need to do. 187 00:09:59,432 --> 00:10:00,308 Really commit. 188 00:10:00,308 --> 00:10:03,644 Double down work, long hours and then come out and pay it back. 189 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:05,980 Rest, recover. 190 00:10:05,980 --> 00:10:08,316 Be kind to yourself. Be kind to those around you. 191 00:10:09,317 --> 00:10:12,194 Then you've got a very sustainable business model. 192 00:10:12,194 --> 00:10:14,989 And this is leadership or this is founders, 193 00:10:14,989 --> 00:10:18,284 leaders, entrepreneurs have a very similar mentality. 194 00:10:18,284 --> 00:10:19,243 When it comes to this. 195 00:10:19,243 --> 00:10:21,912 I think the reality of emotional overdraft is that most of us 196 00:10:21,912 --> 00:10:24,582 behave like this anyway, whether we're running a business or not. 197 00:10:24,582 --> 00:10:28,919 There's a certain sense of self-sacrifice and if you swap out 198 00:10:29,295 --> 00:10:32,715 subsidizing the success of your business with subsidizing the success 199 00:10:32,715 --> 00:10:38,846 of your operation or your enterprise, it could be someone running a family. 200 00:10:38,846 --> 00:10:40,723 I get I get mothers who read this book. 201 00:10:40,723 --> 00:10:43,768 I mean, this is the utter joy of having put this book into the world. 202 00:10:43,768 --> 00:10:46,771 Is that people some people read it, and 203 00:10:47,021 --> 00:10:49,273 but I get people, I people come back to me and I know it's 204 00:10:49,273 --> 00:10:52,234 I know it's having an effect, but I had a mother recently come back to me. 205 00:10:52,234 --> 00:10:53,402 She said. 206 00:10:53,402 --> 00:10:56,030 I read my friends the first chapter and they said, who is this? 207 00:10:56,030 --> 00:10:57,365 And they were like, oh, this is you. 208 00:10:57,365 --> 00:10:59,533 This is, you know, she's not really in company. 209 00:10:59,533 --> 00:11:01,369 She's not a leader in the conventional sense, 210 00:11:01,369 --> 00:11:05,206 but she's a a CEO of her family, and she's 211 00:11:06,457 --> 00:11:09,460 she felt she was constantly subsidizing 212 00:11:09,460 --> 00:11:12,963 everyone else's happiness and everyone else's success and her friends. 213 00:11:12,963 --> 00:11:15,216 It would always be her that put herself out to do the thing. 214 00:11:15,216 --> 00:11:17,927 And so she said, and it resonated with me. 215 00:11:17,927 --> 00:11:20,930 So I think it's a fairly universal thing. 216 00:11:21,639 --> 00:11:23,766 It's a very long answer, your question, so I apologize 217 00:11:23,766 --> 00:11:25,059 if that's where it came from. 218 00:11:25,059 --> 00:11:28,604 I'm glad you brought that up because, you know, you talked about 219 00:11:28,604 --> 00:11:29,438 you work with founders, 220 00:11:29,438 --> 00:11:34,068 you work with entrepreneurs, and certainly that is, a use for this. 221 00:11:34,068 --> 00:11:37,488 But this this applies to all leaders, which is why you're here, 222 00:11:37,488 --> 00:11:39,949 because our audience is right and all those things. 223 00:11:39,949 --> 00:11:42,284 Right. So, in this. 224 00:11:42,284 --> 00:11:44,870 So I get all I get books all the time, right? 225 00:11:44,870 --> 00:11:47,707 People are pitching us to have to be on the show. 226 00:11:47,707 --> 00:11:51,961 And so, you know, you look for patterns before you dive in and make decisions. 227 00:11:51,961 --> 00:11:52,420 Right. 228 00:11:52,420 --> 00:11:55,756 And so I read I pick up the book and it says emotional overdraft 229 00:11:55,756 --> 00:11:57,007 on an angle, which is cool. 230 00:11:58,092 --> 00:12:01,053 Changes for balancing business success and well-being. 231 00:12:01,053 --> 00:12:05,474 So the first thing that comes into my head is this is a book about work 232 00:12:05,474 --> 00:12:08,477 life balance. 233 00:12:08,978 --> 00:12:11,856 See, that's why that's why I want to bring that up. 234 00:12:11,856 --> 00:12:13,274 Because I want you. 235 00:12:13,274 --> 00:12:16,569 Because you wrote this book to talk to me about what 236 00:12:16,569 --> 00:12:20,823 you how you feel about that term work life balance. 237 00:12:21,449 --> 00:12:23,492 I think you know how I feel about it. 238 00:12:23,492 --> 00:12:25,453 Well, I've read the book. Yeah. 239 00:12:25,453 --> 00:12:27,037 No one else listening has. 240 00:12:27,037 --> 00:12:29,039 No, no, no, no, not nobody else. 241 00:12:29,039 --> 00:12:30,916 Not nobody else. Maybe. 242 00:12:30,916 --> 00:12:32,877 But yes, it's true. I'm going to read first right. 243 00:12:32,877 --> 00:12:33,919 Where they are. 244 00:12:33,919 --> 00:12:37,173 They are and I, I get it, I get it. 245 00:12:37,173 --> 00:12:39,842 It's a really helpful expression. 246 00:12:39,842 --> 00:12:43,512 Work life balance is a really helpful expression in that it 247 00:12:43,512 --> 00:12:47,975 it raises the issue of not of not 248 00:12:49,477 --> 00:12:51,729 being subsumed by your work. 249 00:12:51,729 --> 00:12:54,064 So, so in that sense it's great. 250 00:12:54,064 --> 00:12:57,943 But but it also sets up a dichotomy as a phrase. 251 00:12:57,943 --> 00:13:01,655 It suggests that work and life are separate things, and you either work 252 00:13:02,198 --> 00:13:04,992 or you live. 253 00:13:04,992 --> 00:13:06,160 And you can't, you know, 254 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,455 almost can't wait for work to stop so you can carry on and do your life. 255 00:13:09,580 --> 00:13:11,707 If you're an entrepreneur, if you're a leader, 256 00:13:11,707 --> 00:13:16,712 if you're anyone who's committed to their career, you work isn't. 257 00:13:16,754 --> 00:13:18,422 Work is just part of life. 258 00:13:18,422 --> 00:13:21,425 Work is part of that continuum. 259 00:13:21,801 --> 00:13:25,095 So if you call it work lifestyle balance, 260 00:13:25,846 --> 00:13:29,350 maybe that's getting closer to something that's that's more useful because it's, 261 00:13:30,434 --> 00:13:35,064 a balancing how I live and how I exist, and my role in my community and my role 262 00:13:35,064 --> 00:13:39,068 in my family and everything else with my dedication and commitment to work. 263 00:13:39,568 --> 00:13:40,861 Then probably I buy that. 264 00:13:40,861 --> 00:13:44,031 But work life balance, I just think, sets up a 265 00:13:45,574 --> 00:13:46,992 for for people like you and me 266 00:13:46,992 --> 00:13:50,412 and for people listening who who are really dedicated to what they do. 267 00:13:51,580 --> 00:13:52,998 They aren't separate things. 268 00:13:52,998 --> 00:13:56,794 So it's just not a helpful it's not a helpful or useful thing to to describe. 269 00:13:56,794 --> 00:13:58,921 So that's that's my view on work life balance. 270 00:13:58,921 --> 00:14:00,339 It's and I but but but. 271 00:14:00,339 --> 00:14:02,800 But I also understand you know my publisher would love to me 272 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:04,426 to put work life balance on the front of it. 273 00:14:04,426 --> 00:14:05,845 And I refuse to do it 274 00:14:05,845 --> 00:14:08,097 because it's a phrase that people do understand 275 00:14:08,097 --> 00:14:12,226 and is it's it's helpful, but it's a helpful on the way to something. 276 00:14:12,226 --> 00:14:13,894 I think it's in here. 277 00:14:13,894 --> 00:14:15,729 It's just not what the book's about. 278 00:14:15,729 --> 00:14:19,066 And the thing that I will say to it, because you've already hinted at this, 279 00:14:20,192 --> 00:14:22,403 is that I always talk about work life balance, 280 00:14:22,403 --> 00:14:26,782 is that people seem to think that there's a perfect place to be, 281 00:14:27,324 --> 00:14:31,078 and the reality is that we're all in seasons, 282 00:14:31,161 --> 00:14:37,543 whether it's seasons of life or seasons of the year or, you know, whatever. 283 00:14:37,543 --> 00:14:37,793 Right? 284 00:14:37,793 --> 00:14:42,047 Like, okay, I've got a new book coming out in a few months, few months. 285 00:14:42,047 --> 00:14:44,967 Now, by the time you might be reading this, it might be very soon. 286 00:14:44,967 --> 00:14:48,846 Like where my focus is, is different than it might be. 287 00:14:48,846 --> 00:14:51,640 Might have been seven months. It. Well, seven months ago I was writing the book. 288 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:55,144 But my point is that where we are in our life 289 00:14:55,144 --> 00:14:59,148 and in our work means that where we are on these things might be different. 290 00:14:59,148 --> 00:15:00,566 Your comment earlier 291 00:15:00,566 --> 00:15:03,819 and we're going to get into this about the overdraft for a second, is that 292 00:15:03,986 --> 00:15:07,781 we might need to go to a different place for a while, but it's not sustainable. 293 00:15:07,781 --> 00:15:08,741 We can't stay there. 294 00:15:08,741 --> 00:15:12,369 And in that regard, if we think about work life balance that way, 295 00:15:13,829 --> 00:15:14,747 then it's helpful. 296 00:15:14,747 --> 00:15:15,539 But the way most 297 00:15:15,539 --> 00:15:20,169 think about it, to your point, well stated, it's less than helpful. 298 00:15:20,169 --> 00:15:23,088 It makes people think that there's a place they're supposed to get to, 299 00:15:23,088 --> 00:15:25,633 and they don't ever feel like they're getting there. 300 00:15:25,633 --> 00:15:29,887 Yeah, because a balanced state is, is a healthy thing. 301 00:15:30,387 --> 00:15:33,682 You know, it's it's what you guys were wrestling for in your election recently 302 00:15:33,682 --> 00:15:37,895 is, is, you know, it wasn't as simple as I prefer this person or that person. 303 00:15:37,895 --> 00:15:38,854 It was it was. 304 00:15:38,854 --> 00:15:42,608 How do we find some some balance in, in our politics 305 00:15:42,608 --> 00:15:46,403 that gives us the opportunity to, to to succeed and to thrive. 306 00:15:46,904 --> 00:15:49,323 And we've just had the election in the UK as well in the, in the summer. 307 00:15:49,323 --> 00:15:50,658 And it was exactly the same challenge. 308 00:15:50,658 --> 00:15:54,578 So balance guys are just smarter because you don't make it take as long 309 00:15:54,578 --> 00:15:55,746 or cost as much. 310 00:15:55,746 --> 00:15:58,123 I'm just going to say that about all that. 311 00:15:58,123 --> 00:16:00,668 So let's just. Make it. 312 00:16:00,668 --> 00:16:02,294 All of us and move on from there. 313 00:16:03,712 --> 00:16:07,216 So why and you've hinted at this already, but why do we do it? 314 00:16:07,508 --> 00:16:10,636 Like, why do we as leaders, maybe more, 315 00:16:10,636 --> 00:16:13,597 but as leaders to the point of the show, 316 00:16:14,682 --> 00:16:16,350 why do we go into overdraft? 317 00:16:16,350 --> 00:16:18,727 Why do we go 318 00:16:18,727 --> 00:16:21,730 to the perilous place? 319 00:16:22,439 --> 00:16:24,400 And that's that's the question. 320 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:25,192 So when I first wrote 321 00:16:25,192 --> 00:16:28,320 the book, I came up, I did the research, came up with the idea, 322 00:16:29,029 --> 00:16:32,199 wrote it, submitted to the publisher, and the publisher went, and this is great. 323 00:16:32,199 --> 00:16:33,659 We think this is really interesting. 324 00:16:33,659 --> 00:16:35,577 Where's the rest of the book? 325 00:16:35,577 --> 00:16:37,913 And I said, what do you mean, what's the rest of the book? 326 00:16:37,913 --> 00:16:40,416 And they said, well, you know, okay, so we get the idea of overdraft. 327 00:16:40,416 --> 00:16:42,042 What do we do about it? 328 00:16:42,042 --> 00:16:43,335 What do we do about the overdraft? 329 00:16:43,335 --> 00:16:45,462 So I had to write the second half of the book, which is that 330 00:16:45,462 --> 00:16:47,798 you may have come across, but I felt a bit foolish. 331 00:16:47,798 --> 00:16:49,216 But but I share the story. 332 00:16:50,592 --> 00:16:53,595 So why do we get into overdraft? 333 00:16:54,138 --> 00:16:55,848 What's 334 00:16:55,848 --> 00:16:58,642 at the risk of making this sound 335 00:16:58,642 --> 00:16:59,309 simple? 336 00:16:59,309 --> 00:17:01,061 And I think it is simple, but it's not easy. 337 00:17:01,061 --> 00:17:03,397 I think it is simple. 338 00:17:03,397 --> 00:17:06,400 It's broadly because of habits. 339 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,029 And what I've identified in the research for the book is 340 00:17:10,029 --> 00:17:14,700 there are ten broadly ten areas or ten habitual behaviors. 341 00:17:14,825 --> 00:17:18,704 I call them drivers, but they are ten behaviors 342 00:17:18,704 --> 00:17:22,833 or habits which which to a greater extent affect all of us. 343 00:17:22,833 --> 00:17:25,711 And the profile is always different. 344 00:17:25,711 --> 00:17:28,714 But the certainly this this combination of ten drivers 345 00:17:29,214 --> 00:17:32,217 and we typically behave out of habit. 346 00:17:32,968 --> 00:17:35,262 And the good thing about habit is if we don't notice it. 347 00:17:35,262 --> 00:17:38,265 And the bad thing about habit is that we don't notice it. 348 00:17:38,265 --> 00:17:42,144 So it's it's good that it helps us do things without thinking. 349 00:17:42,728 --> 00:17:43,979 Well, especially if they're good. 350 00:17:43,979 --> 00:17:46,523 They're useful at helpful things, right? Like breathing. 351 00:17:46,523 --> 00:17:49,985 You know, you don't want to think about breathing all the time because that's not 352 00:17:50,027 --> 00:17:52,279 it is. A good. Residual but it's reflex. 353 00:17:52,279 --> 00:17:53,363 Deep breathing. 354 00:17:53,363 --> 00:17:56,408 I that's my big conclusion in the book is keep breathing, 355 00:17:57,284 --> 00:17:58,410 which is not a bad thing to do 356 00:17:58,410 --> 00:18:00,704 with breathing exercises, but that's a different story. 357 00:18:00,704 --> 00:18:04,625 So, yeah, the, the, the broadly ten behaviors 358 00:18:05,375 --> 00:18:08,378 and they're universal to everybody is just the balance of 359 00:18:08,378 --> 00:18:11,507 those behaviors is is different for almost everybody. 360 00:18:12,216 --> 00:18:14,468 And for example, 361 00:18:16,136 --> 00:18:17,179 a classic one 362 00:18:17,179 --> 00:18:21,225 is what I call jft, which the publisher insists are called 363 00:18:21,225 --> 00:18:25,896 just flipping do it is is a safety behavior is, 364 00:18:27,272 --> 00:18:31,568 if you're a doer, I just get things done, I get things, I'm one of those people. 365 00:18:31,568 --> 00:18:33,570 I get things done. That's why I'm a leader. 366 00:18:33,570 --> 00:18:35,405 I pile in, I lead from the front. 367 00:18:35,405 --> 00:18:38,408 So I make things happen, I get things done. 368 00:18:38,826 --> 00:18:40,410 I'm not afraid to roll up my sleeves. 369 00:18:40,410 --> 00:18:41,745 I'm ready to do it. 370 00:18:41,745 --> 00:18:44,206 Yeah, and that's great. 371 00:18:44,206 --> 00:18:45,916 And that's what's interesting about all these behaviors on 372 00:18:45,916 --> 00:18:48,585 want like a Swot analysis that you what you did at college. 373 00:18:48,585 --> 00:18:49,753 You know every strength is a weakness. 374 00:18:49,753 --> 00:18:52,381 Every opportunity is a threat. This is the problem. 375 00:18:52,381 --> 00:18:55,217 But it's not a bad thing to be a doer. 376 00:18:55,217 --> 00:18:58,095 But when that doing mentality means that 377 00:18:59,346 --> 00:19:00,472 the answer there's a problem 378 00:19:00,472 --> 00:19:04,226 in your in your organization or your team and the answer is you. 379 00:19:04,601 --> 00:19:08,981 You jump in and fix it, or you always have to get involved, 380 00:19:09,356 --> 00:19:12,943 or you're the person that likes to lead from the front and show people 381 00:19:12,943 --> 00:19:15,529 how to do it. And then you kind of hang around. 382 00:19:15,529 --> 00:19:18,657 This is the sort of behavior that then, well, what happens? 383 00:19:18,699 --> 00:19:19,449 I'll tell you what happens. 384 00:19:19,449 --> 00:19:23,120 If you're a doer, you've got a team and they will, 385 00:19:24,705 --> 00:19:27,374 try and solve a problem and you'll jump in and go, 386 00:19:27,374 --> 00:19:28,834 like, let's do it this way and let's do that way. 387 00:19:28,834 --> 00:19:29,626 And I wouldn't do that. 388 00:19:29,626 --> 00:19:32,796 I do this, and you come in and tell them how to do it, and the team goes, 389 00:19:32,838 --> 00:19:33,213 okay, well. 390 00:19:33,213 --> 00:19:34,339 And he's going to come and fix that. 391 00:19:34,339 --> 00:19:37,301 So what that and they get on with it. 392 00:19:37,301 --> 00:19:39,720 And if you keep doing that, what happens is that team, 393 00:19:40,679 --> 00:19:43,390 there's no such thing as bad dogs, just bad owners. 394 00:19:43,390 --> 00:19:46,101 You know, you can you teach your team 395 00:19:46,101 --> 00:19:49,104 to expect you to jump in and help. 396 00:19:49,146 --> 00:19:52,941 And what happens is that over time they'll go, well, I'm a bit less engaged. 397 00:19:52,941 --> 00:19:54,943 I'm a bit less, 398 00:19:54,943 --> 00:19:58,030 I know, and he's going to jump in anyway, so I'm not going to commit as much effort 399 00:19:58,030 --> 00:20:00,866 to this. It'll be wrong anyway because he he's always got the answer. 400 00:20:00,866 --> 00:20:02,951 So he's going to jump in. 401 00:20:02,951 --> 00:20:06,705 I'll just do a sort of draft and then and he can fix it. 402 00:20:07,206 --> 00:20:08,290 And one day you're well. 403 00:20:08,290 --> 00:20:10,167 Apparently that's what he and he wants. 404 00:20:10,167 --> 00:20:14,504 So I would be because he keeps playing the game as it's been designed. 405 00:20:14,963 --> 00:20:16,632 Precisely. Like it or not, that's the game. 406 00:20:16,632 --> 00:20:18,008 That's the way we play it. 407 00:20:18,008 --> 00:20:19,301 And then I wake up one morning 408 00:20:19,301 --> 00:20:22,930 and I've got a team of people who are disengaged, unmotivated, 409 00:20:23,347 --> 00:20:26,266 who do bad work, and I'm thinking, how come I'm the only person 410 00:20:26,266 --> 00:20:30,312 in this company who is interested in standards, who's doing good work, who's 411 00:20:30,604 --> 00:20:33,607 who's having good decisions, who's originating ideas. 412 00:20:33,607 --> 00:20:34,691 How come I'm the only one? 413 00:20:34,691 --> 00:20:38,028 Well, because, Andy, I don't I don't know how I end up talking about myself. 414 00:20:38,028 --> 00:20:39,863 I should have, should have, Kevin. 415 00:20:39,863 --> 00:20:42,366 But, you know, how come that's happened? What? 416 00:20:42,366 --> 00:20:46,536 I've spent years probably teaching that team to respond that way. 417 00:20:47,162 --> 00:20:50,832 And what happens is they're sitting back, they're less engaged. 418 00:20:51,166 --> 00:20:52,668 They make less progress. 419 00:20:52,668 --> 00:20:55,045 They, there's fewer promotions. 420 00:20:55,045 --> 00:20:58,090 There's a very long cycle of behaviors that follow on behind that. 421 00:20:58,090 --> 00:21:01,093 But what we do know is that you are going to have to spend more time. 422 00:21:01,468 --> 00:21:03,428 You're going to be dragged into more things. 423 00:21:03,428 --> 00:21:05,430 You're going to fail. You have to do more. 424 00:21:05,430 --> 00:21:08,350 And then other behaviors start to come, come into play. 425 00:21:08,350 --> 00:21:09,643 Like trust is a big one. 426 00:21:09,643 --> 00:21:13,272 So very aligned with Jfrd is the trust behavior. 427 00:21:13,272 --> 00:21:15,565 It's great to trust people. 428 00:21:15,565 --> 00:21:19,152 It's great to trust your team and you should do that. 429 00:21:19,152 --> 00:21:22,781 But lots and lots of leaders struggle to trust their team. 430 00:21:22,990 --> 00:21:24,866 And imagine you've just been doing all this, Jay. 431 00:21:24,866 --> 00:21:26,702 FDLE behavior. 432 00:21:26,702 --> 00:21:28,662 And now I've started to doubt my team a bit. 433 00:21:28,662 --> 00:21:30,205 I did I recruit good people or not. 434 00:21:30,205 --> 00:21:33,208 How how did I get how do these people get through the recruitment process? 435 00:21:33,250 --> 00:21:35,002 These people are pretty bang on average. 436 00:21:35,002 --> 00:21:36,545 What's happened to them? 437 00:21:36,545 --> 00:21:38,380 Well, I don't quite trust them anymore. 438 00:21:38,380 --> 00:21:40,924 So what am I going to do? I'm going to start hiring some other people. 439 00:21:40,924 --> 00:21:42,884 Maybe I'm going to find other teams. 440 00:21:42,884 --> 00:21:45,220 I'm going to stop giving them work. They become demotivated. 441 00:21:45,220 --> 00:21:47,514 They might leave. They might look for more fulfilling work 442 00:21:48,724 --> 00:21:49,683 and so trust. 443 00:21:49,683 --> 00:21:52,686 And that reinforces my feeling about trust because I go what? 444 00:21:52,686 --> 00:21:53,729 I was right not to trust them. 445 00:21:53,729 --> 00:21:57,482 And I've been in so many companies, particularly working with 446 00:21:58,734 --> 00:22:01,653 smaller companies where where the leadership 447 00:22:01,653 --> 00:22:05,490 kind of know everybody or, you know, 70, 80, 90, 100 and up to, you know, 448 00:22:05,532 --> 00:22:10,287 mid hundreds, you kind of know who everybody is and the solution, 449 00:22:10,287 --> 00:22:13,290 what you spot the behavior and ends up with them sacking people. 450 00:22:13,540 --> 00:22:16,668 They release people and they say it's a shame you didn't quite work out. 451 00:22:16,668 --> 00:22:18,879 You'd been here 2 or 3 years. We thought you were going to be great. 452 00:22:18,879 --> 00:22:20,380 Didn't really work for us. 453 00:22:20,380 --> 00:22:21,089 That's for all of us. 454 00:22:21,089 --> 00:22:23,175 If you go, but thanks a lot. 455 00:22:23,175 --> 00:22:25,927 And, you know, good luck in your career. 456 00:22:25,927 --> 00:22:27,637 And it keeps happening. 457 00:22:27,637 --> 00:22:30,265 And that's one of the really clear signals 458 00:22:30,265 --> 00:22:32,893 that either you're recruiting very badly, 459 00:22:34,269 --> 00:22:37,272 but probably the some of that, because everyone does 460 00:22:37,481 --> 00:22:41,026 not everyone, almost everyone does or, or you're doing 461 00:22:41,026 --> 00:22:44,446 something to turn people from good people into, into less good people. 462 00:22:44,946 --> 00:22:47,949 And always in my career, I've hired for attitude. 463 00:22:47,949 --> 00:22:50,077 I think you hire for attitude. 464 00:22:50,077 --> 00:22:51,620 You can't teach attitude. 465 00:22:51,620 --> 00:22:53,497 So hire people with amazing attitudes 466 00:22:53,497 --> 00:22:56,500 and you can teach them what you need to teach them. 467 00:22:56,792 --> 00:22:59,878 But even then I found myself because I'm not immune from this, believe me. 468 00:23:01,421 --> 00:23:04,007 I found that I've hired people with great attitude. 469 00:23:04,007 --> 00:23:07,094 So over time, I've just kind of become disengaged, become 470 00:23:08,136 --> 00:23:11,139 less, less than I thought they would. 471 00:23:11,348 --> 00:23:13,058 And I know that's down to me. 472 00:23:13,058 --> 00:23:16,645 I had a I had a, a member of staff, an amazing bright lady 473 00:23:16,686 --> 00:23:18,897 who's gone on to do incredible things. 474 00:23:18,897 --> 00:23:21,817 And she once said to me in a meeting, she said, and I was mad at the time. 475 00:23:21,817 --> 00:23:24,528 She said, Andy, one day you'll make a really good MD. 476 00:23:27,406 --> 00:23:29,366 And I thought, well, I had an empty what do you what? 477 00:23:29,366 --> 00:23:30,951 I've been an empty for about 15 years. 478 00:23:30,951 --> 00:23:32,786 What are you talking about? 479 00:23:32,786 --> 00:23:36,665 But her point was that I thought I was doing all the right things. 480 00:23:36,665 --> 00:23:41,628 There's a brilliant book called the, multipliers by, 481 00:23:42,671 --> 00:23:43,672 Liz Wiseman. 482 00:23:43,672 --> 00:23:44,631 Liz Wiseman there you go. 483 00:23:44,631 --> 00:23:47,926 Liz Wiseman and the Australian chap, his nickname of Cabot Multipliers. 484 00:23:47,968 --> 00:23:50,637 Fantastic book. And I thought I was a multiplier. 485 00:23:50,637 --> 00:23:54,850 I thought I was helping my team by doing all the right things and by. 486 00:23:55,183 --> 00:23:58,812 But it turns out I was what Liz calls an accidental dementia. 487 00:23:59,062 --> 00:24:02,190 I was actually doing all the right things, but it wasn't landing 488 00:24:02,190 --> 00:24:03,024 as well as I thought. 489 00:24:03,024 --> 00:24:07,112 And it's a very small difference, but it can have a huge impact on your people. 490 00:24:07,404 --> 00:24:08,196 And that's what she meant 491 00:24:08,196 --> 00:24:11,491 when she bought me the book and gave it to me, which is such a kind, 492 00:24:11,992 --> 00:24:13,034 a kind and considerate. 493 00:24:13,034 --> 00:24:16,037 I mean, clearly she thought I was a good leader, 494 00:24:16,079 --> 00:24:18,457 but she didn't think I was having the impact I should be having. 495 00:24:18,457 --> 00:24:19,124 And she she 496 00:24:19,124 --> 00:24:22,586 she cared enough to buy me this book, which which is an outstanding book. 497 00:24:23,420 --> 00:24:24,796 It is and Liz has been on the show. 498 00:24:24,796 --> 00:24:26,506 We'll make sure that everybody. 499 00:24:26,506 --> 00:24:29,050 Who hasn't seen this haven't seen that one. 500 00:24:29,050 --> 00:24:30,010 As well. 501 00:24:30,010 --> 00:24:32,262 So Liz Wiseman said outstanding. 502 00:24:32,262 --> 00:24:34,973 I mean, you know, to be on the same podcast she's been on. 503 00:24:34,973 --> 00:24:36,016 Hello tough. 504 00:24:36,016 --> 00:24:36,516 There you go. 505 00:24:36,516 --> 00:24:38,393 Well I think thank you I guess. 506 00:24:38,393 --> 00:24:39,853 So here's here's the thing. 507 00:24:39,853 --> 00:24:42,189 There are ten drivers we do not have time to talk about ten. 508 00:24:42,189 --> 00:24:43,523 We have talked about two. 509 00:24:43,523 --> 00:24:47,402 We've talked about Jfrd I, which is when I took your assessment 510 00:24:47,402 --> 00:24:49,779 and will tell people how they can get to your assessment a little bit. 511 00:24:49,779 --> 00:24:53,533 That came out as my highest or worst one. 512 00:24:53,825 --> 00:24:57,787 I don't think in my case it's always and maybe this is just Kevin justifying, 513 00:24:58,330 --> 00:25:03,293 that it's always that I feel like I have to, but I feel like I want to. 514 00:25:03,627 --> 00:25:08,715 It is also partly about related to for me like and in fact, 515 00:25:08,715 --> 00:25:11,718 if it's not a huge problem for me, at least in terms of the 516 00:25:11,801 --> 00:25:16,473 the engagement of my team, it's because I think I'm really good. 517 00:25:16,473 --> 00:25:20,560 And and your assessment says I'm in good shape on the trust one, 518 00:25:20,810 --> 00:25:21,853 so I balance that one. 519 00:25:21,853 --> 00:25:25,857 But here's the one that I think there's that at least for Kevin 520 00:25:26,066 --> 00:25:29,319 sees a connection to J f FDI 521 00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:32,322 and that's urgency. 522 00:25:32,572 --> 00:25:35,575 Right I'm not I'm doing it to be helpful. 523 00:25:35,742 --> 00:25:39,788 And I'm doing it just because we just need to get we just need to keep moving. 524 00:25:40,372 --> 00:25:45,085 And so talk about this urge again we can't get to all of them so. 525 00:25:45,919 --> 00:25:47,963 Well someone's written a book. What about the driver. 526 00:25:47,963 --> 00:25:49,089 The agency. 527 00:25:49,089 --> 00:25:49,422 I'm sorry. 528 00:25:49,422 --> 00:25:52,342 Go ahead I'll just say someone's written a book with all the ten things in it. 529 00:25:52,342 --> 00:25:55,345 So if you're interested, you can always grab a copy of that. 530 00:25:55,887 --> 00:25:56,346 Thank you. 531 00:25:56,346 --> 00:25:57,264 Kevin. Here it is. 532 00:25:57,264 --> 00:25:59,766 Emotional Overdraft by Andy Brown. 533 00:25:59,766 --> 00:26:00,976 That's who we're talking to. 534 00:26:00,976 --> 00:26:02,978 So talk about this driver of urgency. 535 00:26:02,978 --> 00:26:04,354 So urgency is really interesting. 536 00:26:04,354 --> 00:26:06,731 And in the research it showed up as things like, 537 00:26:07,857 --> 00:26:08,733 the comments would be 538 00:26:08,733 --> 00:26:11,861 I asked people why why they ended up in this state 539 00:26:12,571 --> 00:26:15,574 and they said things like, well, I was short of time. 540 00:26:15,907 --> 00:26:17,033 I was acting on reflex. 541 00:26:17,033 --> 00:26:19,953 I wasn't thinking, I just, I just jump in and get and sort of get it done. 542 00:26:19,953 --> 00:26:23,623 So it feels important is it's very highly related to charity. 543 00:26:23,707 --> 00:26:24,666 And that's the other thing is I've 544 00:26:24,666 --> 00:26:28,503 artificially created the distinctions, but they they blur, 545 00:26:28,503 --> 00:26:31,506 they, you know, they edge into each other a little bit. 546 00:26:32,340 --> 00:26:35,343 And urgency is 547 00:26:36,011 --> 00:26:36,886 really useful. 548 00:26:36,886 --> 00:26:39,222 And if you're a team leader and you want to get things done 549 00:26:39,222 --> 00:26:42,809 and you're, you're encouraging your team to do things really quickly, it's great. 550 00:26:42,809 --> 00:26:45,395 I mean, that's a really good thing 551 00:26:45,395 --> 00:26:46,354 at times. 552 00:26:46,354 --> 00:26:48,315 Until it's not like in everyone's mind. 553 00:26:48,315 --> 00:26:50,942 And then and so it's not right. 554 00:26:50,942 --> 00:26:52,944 And and what's what's interesting is that 555 00:26:53,987 --> 00:26:56,990 I look at urgency and go, well why is it urgent? 556 00:26:57,157 --> 00:26:59,784 What has made this urgent. 557 00:26:59,784 --> 00:27:02,662 It's it's a big one of the big drivers and lots of people have it. 558 00:27:02,662 --> 00:27:05,123 So the question to ask yourself, if you if you keep find yourself 559 00:27:05,123 --> 00:27:07,500 in urgent situations where you have to jump in, 560 00:27:07,500 --> 00:27:08,918 you feel like you don't have a choice. 561 00:27:08,918 --> 00:27:10,420 Other than to usually get involved. 562 00:27:10,420 --> 00:27:11,838 And remember, if you're getting involved, 563 00:27:11,838 --> 00:27:14,424 that means that you're not doing the things on your to do list. 564 00:27:14,424 --> 00:27:16,635 You're not doing the important stuff of leadership. 565 00:27:16,635 --> 00:27:18,386 You're not developing your teams. 566 00:27:18,386 --> 00:27:21,931 All that stuff that can wait that doesn't seem to matter, will wait. 567 00:27:21,931 --> 00:27:24,726 So urgency is really important to understand. 568 00:27:24,726 --> 00:27:28,188 But if you find you're you're in, urgent situations, 569 00:27:28,605 --> 00:27:31,816 ask yourself the question, why is this urgent? 570 00:27:33,151 --> 00:27:36,154 What has made this become urgent? 571 00:27:36,237 --> 00:27:39,240 And if you do that and you're honest about it, what you might discover 572 00:27:39,866 --> 00:27:43,036 is that it could actually be, 573 00:27:44,579 --> 00:27:46,998 something you could have anticipated. 574 00:27:46,998 --> 00:27:48,583 And so I talk to people about this all the time, 575 00:27:48,583 --> 00:27:51,586 or they'll say, yeah, but what if my client phones up? 576 00:27:51,753 --> 00:27:54,297 Big cloud, biggest client phones up in the morning. 577 00:27:54,297 --> 00:27:56,257 I've got my day planner. They phone up first thing in the morning. 578 00:27:56,257 --> 00:27:59,260 They say it's all gone wrong and we need to get it fixed. 579 00:28:02,138 --> 00:28:03,973 How could I have predicted that? 580 00:28:03,973 --> 00:28:06,309 You know, that's that's urgent. And I couldn't predict it. 581 00:28:06,309 --> 00:28:07,686 Well, that's not really true, is it? 582 00:28:07,686 --> 00:28:10,689 Because unless that's the only time that's ever happened. 583 00:28:11,356 --> 00:28:13,900 Yeah. That isn't 584 00:28:13,900 --> 00:28:18,822 that's, you know, which is not never is, then it's actually predictable. 585 00:28:18,822 --> 00:28:19,614 It's not predictable 586 00:28:19,614 --> 00:28:22,742 exactly when it's going to happen, but it is predictable that it will happen. 587 00:28:23,618 --> 00:28:26,579 And in my world, I'd say, and I've got to tell you, 588 00:28:26,579 --> 00:28:29,624 the answer to lots of emotional overdraft is really boring stuff. 589 00:28:29,624 --> 00:28:31,126 It's like process. 590 00:28:31,126 --> 00:28:34,087 It's it's organization. It's delegation. 591 00:28:34,462 --> 00:28:37,424 It's tracking and monitoring this, these are things. 592 00:28:37,424 --> 00:28:39,092 But when you're when you're in emotional overdraft, 593 00:28:39,092 --> 00:28:41,344 when you're absolutely, you know, when you're stressed, 594 00:28:41,344 --> 00:28:44,723 when you're burning out, the last thing you feel you can do is stop 595 00:28:45,306 --> 00:28:46,182 and organize stuff. 596 00:28:46,182 --> 00:28:48,143 So what I hope we can come back to that. 597 00:28:48,143 --> 00:28:49,602 Well, let me just make an observation 598 00:28:49,602 --> 00:28:52,731 because it's an example in the book and I won't go to it. 599 00:28:52,731 --> 00:28:54,107 Exactly. I mean, I get it perfect, but 600 00:28:55,775 --> 00:28:58,319 and but it rung true for me about urgency. 601 00:28:58,319 --> 00:28:59,446 We get in that moment. 602 00:28:59,446 --> 00:29:00,405 There's the fire. 603 00:29:00,405 --> 00:29:02,407 I need to go get the fire extinguisher. 604 00:29:02,407 --> 00:29:03,658 Right now. 605 00:29:03,658 --> 00:29:07,245 In the book, you talk about someone's, a client saying, I need this on Monday. 606 00:29:07,245 --> 00:29:09,456 And they were getting ready to go away for the weekend. 607 00:29:09,456 --> 00:29:09,914 Yeah. 608 00:29:09,914 --> 00:29:12,876 And and if we don't stop, 609 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,963 we just take the laptop and power through it. 610 00:29:17,714 --> 00:29:20,049 But if we do stop, we might ask 611 00:29:20,049 --> 00:29:23,219 the customer, hey, I'm about ready to go for the weekend. 612 00:29:23,219 --> 00:29:26,222 Is Monday. Would would Tuesday work. 613 00:29:26,806 --> 00:29:27,640 And that six and if. 614 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,976 They say yes, awesome. 615 00:29:29,976 --> 00:29:34,147 If they say no, you still at least no, right? 616 00:29:34,147 --> 00:29:37,150 Or they say end of day Monday is fine, 617 00:29:37,901 --> 00:29:39,986 which is the same, might be the same thing. It's Tuesday. 618 00:29:39,986 --> 00:29:43,823 So my point is all we have to do is stop, take a breath. 619 00:29:44,073 --> 00:29:45,074 Yeah. 620 00:29:45,074 --> 00:29:47,827 And in many of these because because here's the thing. 621 00:29:47,827 --> 00:29:52,707 You said it earlier and and there's a chapter at the end about habits here. 622 00:29:53,082 --> 00:29:53,458 Right? 623 00:29:53,458 --> 00:29:58,505 Is if we don't stop and we run on automatic, we run on our habit. 624 00:29:58,505 --> 00:30:01,132 That's where we run the risk of any of these things, 625 00:30:01,132 --> 00:30:02,842 any of the ten becoming an issue. 626 00:30:02,842 --> 00:30:05,595 But if we'll stop, take a breath and say, what if? 627 00:30:05,595 --> 00:30:08,765 Or is this serving me or whatever? Right. 628 00:30:08,932 --> 00:30:11,684 So like Kevin Jfrd, I 629 00:30:12,727 --> 00:30:15,480 well, let me just roll up my sleeves and help. 630 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:15,939 Okay. 631 00:30:15,939 --> 00:30:18,942 Is that serving the situation? 632 00:30:19,484 --> 00:30:22,445 Is it even seen as helpful by the team? 633 00:30:22,445 --> 00:30:25,740 Even though if that's my entire intention. 634 00:30:26,199 --> 00:30:28,326 Yeah, maybe. 635 00:30:28,326 --> 00:30:28,993 Maybe not. 636 00:30:28,993 --> 00:30:30,703 Maybe what they'd rather hear is. 637 00:30:30,703 --> 00:30:32,831 Hey, I know you're really busy. What can I do for you? 638 00:30:32,831 --> 00:30:33,915 Do you want me to order the pizza? 639 00:30:33,915 --> 00:30:36,918 Like, maybe that's what they need. 640 00:30:37,585 --> 00:30:38,920 And that. And you've nailed it. 641 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,296 The secret. 642 00:30:40,296 --> 00:30:43,299 And the reason emotional overdraft is so important as a phrase 643 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,053 is because if you recognize that you are in those habits 644 00:30:47,053 --> 00:30:50,056 and you're in your emotional overdraft for too long, 645 00:30:51,432 --> 00:30:53,977 then take a second. 646 00:30:53,977 --> 00:30:55,478 Just take a second and go. 647 00:30:55,478 --> 00:30:57,397 What could I do differently? 648 00:30:57,397 --> 00:30:59,148 What could I do differently now? 649 00:30:59,148 --> 00:31:01,067 And that's often enough to break a habit. 650 00:31:01,067 --> 00:31:04,362 It's it's often enough to make you recognize I. 651 00:31:04,445 --> 00:31:07,365 Okay, so when I get running 2 or 3 times a week, 652 00:31:07,365 --> 00:31:09,576 I have to put my trainers by the bedroom door. 653 00:31:09,576 --> 00:31:13,329 If I don't, I know that I'm going to probably find an excuse. 654 00:31:13,329 --> 00:31:15,164 There's two ways to cold it to sunny. 655 00:31:15,164 --> 00:31:17,750 It's to whatever to Monday. 656 00:31:17,750 --> 00:31:20,920 Well, wet and to to wet and to cold and most likely where you live. 657 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:21,296 I'm just going. 658 00:31:21,296 --> 00:31:22,422 They are, they are. Yeah. 659 00:31:22,422 --> 00:31:25,675 But I wanted to put it out but but if I put them by my bedroom door, 660 00:31:25,675 --> 00:31:28,177 I know that by that I do have to get in the habit 661 00:31:28,177 --> 00:31:30,263 of putting them by the bedroom door. So it reminds me. 662 00:31:30,263 --> 00:31:31,139 That's the habit. 663 00:31:31,139 --> 00:31:33,016 So that's well, that's. A good habit. 664 00:31:33,016 --> 00:31:34,601 So that's how you flip it. Right? 665 00:31:34,601 --> 00:31:36,519 I would say that's the routine, 666 00:31:36,519 --> 00:31:38,521 you know, that helps you reinforce the habit that you want. 667 00:31:38,521 --> 00:31:41,107 So there's loads of books about habit and but I'll just finish 668 00:31:41,107 --> 00:31:43,902 that thing about the, about the urgency because it's important. 669 00:31:43,902 --> 00:31:45,904 The first one was was a true story. 670 00:31:45,904 --> 00:31:49,490 I had a head of a whole department, a brilliant, talented lady 671 00:31:50,033 --> 00:31:51,367 who came to me and said, 672 00:31:51,367 --> 00:31:54,287 you know, I've got to cancel my holiday because I'm going to. 673 00:31:54,287 --> 00:31:57,749 The third time, I think it was, because I've got to get this thing done on Monday. 674 00:31:57,749 --> 00:32:01,085 And I just said, have you asked the client if they really need it by Monday? 675 00:32:01,085 --> 00:32:02,086 Because we all go. 676 00:32:02,086 --> 00:32:04,797 Client wants it, client gets it, client wants it, client gets it. 677 00:32:06,591 --> 00:32:07,926 That's 678 00:32:07,926 --> 00:32:11,888 not always true because the client often they bring you answers, not questions. 679 00:32:11,888 --> 00:32:15,224 And I often say to my teens, go and ask them a question. 680 00:32:15,224 --> 00:32:15,808 Can I ask what? 681 00:32:15,808 --> 00:32:17,268 Find out what's behind what they're telling you 682 00:32:17,268 --> 00:32:20,063 because they're saying we need it by Mondays. An answer to something. 683 00:32:20,063 --> 00:32:21,397 What actually did they need? 684 00:32:21,397 --> 00:32:23,107 She went back and chatted to them and said, look, 685 00:32:23,107 --> 00:32:25,026 I'm going on holiday this weekend. 686 00:32:25,026 --> 00:32:26,736 I can get it done by Monday. 687 00:32:26,736 --> 00:32:30,782 But if I if I go away, I just still get it done by Tuesday. 688 00:32:31,449 --> 00:32:33,576 And the client went great. Have a lovely weekend. 689 00:32:33,576 --> 00:32:34,994 Have a great holiday. 690 00:32:34,994 --> 00:32:36,746 You know. And now just ask me. 691 00:32:36,746 --> 00:32:38,539 And that was the habit that was to have it broken. 692 00:32:38,539 --> 00:32:40,208 She went I'll take a beat. 693 00:32:40,208 --> 00:32:41,626 I recognize what I'm doing. 694 00:32:41,626 --> 00:32:43,711 I'll actually ask the client. 695 00:32:43,711 --> 00:32:47,757 So it's so important it gives you the chance to stop, but also the urgency. 696 00:32:47,757 --> 00:32:49,092 I was talking about the one where, 697 00:32:51,386 --> 00:32:52,387 where 698 00:32:52,387 --> 00:32:55,390 a client ask you to do something really quickly. 699 00:32:56,265 --> 00:32:59,394 Actually, if that happens more than once, it does happen more than once. 700 00:32:59,394 --> 00:33:02,397 There's probably something happening in the background 701 00:33:02,605 --> 00:33:05,858 that is leading to the client to asking for it. 702 00:33:05,984 --> 00:33:09,195 So it could be that every time a client asks for something, you guys say yes. 703 00:33:09,737 --> 00:33:12,407 So why would they stop asking why? 704 00:33:12,407 --> 00:33:13,032 Why wouldn't they? 705 00:33:13,032 --> 00:33:14,784 They'll just keep taking. They'll keep taking. 706 00:33:14,784 --> 00:33:17,203 And that's what clients do. That's almost the definition of them. 707 00:33:17,203 --> 00:33:19,622 So they're going to go I expect it tomorrow. 708 00:33:19,622 --> 00:33:20,540 They're not going to say, 709 00:33:20,540 --> 00:33:22,041 well maybe could you do it by the end of the week, 710 00:33:22,041 --> 00:33:23,251 or could you do it in two weeks time 711 00:33:23,251 --> 00:33:25,086 that they're not thinking about what you're doing? 712 00:33:25,086 --> 00:33:28,798 They're just going, well, they always get it to me by, you know, in 24 hours. 713 00:33:29,007 --> 00:33:31,342 So I'll ask for. 24 hours. 714 00:33:31,342 --> 00:33:34,303 So we train the client to expect that. 715 00:33:34,303 --> 00:33:37,515 So but so that's what I'm saying behind that urgency 716 00:33:37,932 --> 00:33:42,103 as a leader it's critical for me that you go hang on. 717 00:33:43,438 --> 00:33:45,815 Maybe the team have to respond really quickly on this occasion, 718 00:33:45,815 --> 00:33:48,151 but let's just step back and have a look at this and go, 719 00:33:48,151 --> 00:33:51,154 have we taught our client to behave that way or 720 00:33:51,571 --> 00:33:54,032 if it happens regularly? 721 00:33:54,032 --> 00:33:58,036 And so I used to have a business where, 722 00:33:59,162 --> 00:34:01,497 we were a media agency 723 00:34:01,497 --> 00:34:04,208 and we had to place ads on a particular day. 724 00:34:04,208 --> 00:34:05,626 And, you know, that day, 725 00:34:05,626 --> 00:34:06,878 you know, you got to place an ad on a Wednesday, 726 00:34:06,878 --> 00:34:08,463 it's got to appear on a Wednesday, 727 00:34:08,463 --> 00:34:11,299 and we get the ad supplied to us by a creative agency. 728 00:34:11,299 --> 00:34:14,302 And often they'd be very late. 729 00:34:15,053 --> 00:34:16,512 And my team were fantastic. 730 00:34:16,512 --> 00:34:17,722 And they would make up 731 00:34:17,722 --> 00:34:20,933 a day or two shortfall and they'd find a way to get those ads live. 732 00:34:21,559 --> 00:34:23,603 But occasionally it would go wrong and the ads wouldn't show up. 733 00:34:23,603 --> 00:34:25,563 And then the client would give my team brief 734 00:34:26,939 --> 00:34:29,317 and I said, have you ever told the client what the process is 735 00:34:29,317 --> 00:34:33,404 and why we say we need them four days before the media booking? 736 00:34:34,906 --> 00:34:36,074 And they said, no, we never told them. 737 00:34:36,074 --> 00:34:37,617 I said, why don't we? 738 00:34:37,617 --> 00:34:39,035 Because we get lots of clients doing this. 739 00:34:39,035 --> 00:34:40,369 Why don't we make a little animation? 740 00:34:40,369 --> 00:34:42,747 That just explains it very simply, 741 00:34:42,747 --> 00:34:45,083 and then we can use that, and then we can say to them, 742 00:34:45,083 --> 00:34:48,044 and when your creative agency supplies with two days notice and we're really 743 00:34:48,044 --> 00:34:51,047 we need for we're not being difficult. 744 00:34:51,214 --> 00:34:52,548 There's these processes we're. 745 00:34:52,548 --> 00:34:53,049 Trying to make. 746 00:34:53,049 --> 00:34:55,259 Eagle and compliance. Make it happen. 747 00:34:55,259 --> 00:34:57,428 Is it so any other. 748 00:34:57,428 --> 00:34:59,055 And it changed. It changed. 749 00:34:59,055 --> 00:35:00,765 The media buying department with the clients 750 00:35:00,765 --> 00:35:03,851 because suddenly their clients were educated to understand 751 00:35:04,060 --> 00:35:05,436 all those emergency slowed down. 752 00:35:05,436 --> 00:35:08,564 They'd start giving their creative agencies the pressure rather than my team. 753 00:35:08,564 --> 00:35:09,107 The pressure. 754 00:35:10,108 --> 00:35:10,566 I mean, that was in 755 00:35:10,566 --> 00:35:13,569 a in a period when we doubled in size in 18 months. 756 00:35:13,653 --> 00:35:14,946 So we were under pressure anyway. 757 00:35:14,946 --> 00:35:18,032 We were doing amazing things, but that sort of thinking. 758 00:35:18,032 --> 00:35:20,701 So there's an urgency, 759 00:35:20,701 --> 00:35:23,121 it's urgent but might not have been as urgent 760 00:35:23,121 --> 00:35:26,124 if we'd done something else differently, if we had better processes. 761 00:35:26,124 --> 00:35:28,209 You know, if it's urgent because we made a mistake 762 00:35:28,209 --> 00:35:31,212 till we had better quality assurance or checking or 763 00:35:31,879 --> 00:35:34,882 it's almost always something so, so urgency. 764 00:35:35,633 --> 00:35:36,425 Yes. It's great. 765 00:35:36,425 --> 00:35:39,470 You can jump in and fix it is great that you can do really well with it, but 766 00:35:39,470 --> 00:35:44,684 a lot of urgency can be mitigated by better planning and better organization. 767 00:35:44,684 --> 00:35:47,145 And and so committed we are. 768 00:35:47,145 --> 00:35:50,982 We were talking with Andy Brown, the author of The Emotional Overdraft. 769 00:35:51,190 --> 00:35:53,943 And and the richness that we've had in this conversation 770 00:35:53,943 --> 00:35:57,321 is about a very small part of the book, which is why you make sure you go 771 00:35:57,321 --> 00:36:00,324 buy your copy more about how to do that in a second. 772 00:36:00,366 --> 00:36:01,576 But I have a couple other questions. 773 00:36:01,576 --> 00:36:02,785 Andy, before we finish. 774 00:36:03,744 --> 00:36:06,539 And, because here's the thing. 775 00:36:06,539 --> 00:36:08,332 You know, normally the show is about 30 minutes. 776 00:36:08,332 --> 00:36:10,209 We're already over that. And. Sorry. 777 00:36:10,209 --> 00:36:13,004 And all that means is that this was a good conversation. 778 00:36:13,004 --> 00:36:17,175 But what it also means is that we're we're we're starting to dive into what 779 00:36:17,175 --> 00:36:20,469 other people might have said, that, hey, this is more time that I spend with Kevin. 780 00:36:21,095 --> 00:36:22,305 So I want to be aware of that, 781 00:36:22,305 --> 00:36:24,015 but I do have a couple of other questions before we go. 782 00:36:24,015 --> 00:36:26,726 Number one is I want to know, Andy, what you do for fun, 783 00:36:26,726 --> 00:36:28,352 because one of the things we need to do 784 00:36:28,352 --> 00:36:32,356 to get back out of our emotional overdraft is to make sure we're not missing 785 00:36:32,398 --> 00:36:35,902 on those things that bring us joy and rejuvenation. 786 00:36:35,902 --> 00:36:37,653 And so what are those things for you? 787 00:36:38,905 --> 00:36:39,405 Well, I, 788 00:36:39,405 --> 00:36:43,367 I exercise well, I mean, I'm coming three. 789 00:36:43,367 --> 00:36:46,370 Days a week if you put the fuze out there, are you already doing well? 790 00:36:46,579 --> 00:36:49,874 If I do well I and I go to the gym two days a week as well. And, 791 00:36:50,917 --> 00:36:52,919 my published is a really good example of this. 792 00:36:52,919 --> 00:36:55,922 She's run every day consecutively for over six years, 793 00:36:57,131 --> 00:37:00,134 and she does that by, 794 00:37:00,176 --> 00:37:03,179 her definition of run is anything a two kilometers or more. 795 00:37:03,429 --> 00:37:04,931 So it doesn't have to be miles. 796 00:37:04,931 --> 00:37:06,432 It can just be a mile. 797 00:37:06,432 --> 00:37:10,603 But every day she's committed and she's struggling originally to do it. 798 00:37:10,895 --> 00:37:14,440 And she changed the mindset and changed it from, I tried to run every day 799 00:37:15,608 --> 00:37:18,486 to I am someone who runs every day, 800 00:37:18,486 --> 00:37:21,405 and she now recognizes herself as someone who runs every day. 801 00:37:21,405 --> 00:37:22,406 I'm a. Runner. 802 00:37:22,406 --> 00:37:23,991 And that's not someone who tries 803 00:37:23,991 --> 00:37:26,994 to run every day, because if you try, you've got permission not to run. 804 00:37:27,078 --> 00:37:29,956 She's someone who runs every day and she identifies with that. 805 00:37:29,956 --> 00:37:34,543 And I only share that because I do love running quite long distances. But 806 00:37:35,544 --> 00:37:36,837 if you're listening to this and going back 807 00:37:36,837 --> 00:37:39,966 and you don't have time, I'm too busy and I hear it all the time. 808 00:37:39,966 --> 00:37:41,467 I stop going to the gym. 809 00:37:41,467 --> 00:37:43,177 You know, I don't play five a side anymore. 810 00:37:43,177 --> 00:37:45,304 I, I've stopped playing sports. 811 00:37:45,304 --> 00:37:48,015 These things are so easy to let go when you think you're busy. 812 00:37:48,015 --> 00:37:50,017 These are the things you have to plug into this. 813 00:37:50,017 --> 00:37:53,312 The physicality this morning is it was a beautiful sunny day in the UK. 814 00:37:53,312 --> 00:37:55,982 It's a rare thing but a beautiful day. 815 00:37:55,982 --> 00:37:57,400 And I made time this morning. 816 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,860 I moved a couple of things and I went for a walk. 817 00:37:59,860 --> 00:38:03,739 I love walking, I love working quite long distances, rambling. 818 00:38:05,324 --> 00:38:06,826 That's one of my my big hobbies. 819 00:38:06,826 --> 00:38:09,370 The other thing is I support, a football team. 820 00:38:09,370 --> 00:38:12,039 Football is actually football. I think you call it soccer. 821 00:38:13,332 --> 00:38:16,043 And, I go and support them. 822 00:38:16,043 --> 00:38:19,088 And as a 59 year old man, I can stand on the terrace with lots of other 823 00:38:20,089 --> 00:38:23,426 balding men and shout abuse that people are never see again in my life. 824 00:38:23,426 --> 00:38:24,760 So for 90 minutes, it's 825 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,681 just an amazing release and a sense of community being in this. 826 00:38:28,848 --> 00:38:30,182 And I don't support a very good team. 827 00:38:30,182 --> 00:38:33,311 So there's always this shared sense of angst, 828 00:38:33,769 --> 00:38:38,399 angst and depression and yeah, but but it's a it's a glorious thing. 829 00:38:38,399 --> 00:38:40,568 And, and it doesn't feel very grown up. 830 00:38:40,568 --> 00:38:42,445 And that's also probably a very good thing as well. 831 00:38:42,445 --> 00:38:44,113 So that's what I do to. 832 00:38:44,113 --> 00:38:45,698 But I make the time to do it. 833 00:38:45,698 --> 00:38:47,908 I plan it into my diary and I make the time to do it. 834 00:38:49,243 --> 00:38:51,996 We make choices and we make the choice to do that. 835 00:38:51,996 --> 00:38:52,997 And I don't have to run. 836 00:38:52,997 --> 00:38:53,831 I choose to run. 837 00:38:53,831 --> 00:38:54,332 I get to run. 838 00:38:54,332 --> 00:38:55,333 I'm a runner, right? 839 00:38:55,333 --> 00:38:58,461 I love that, what are you reading or or. 840 00:38:58,461 --> 00:39:01,464 Andy, what's something that you've read recently? 841 00:39:01,714 --> 00:39:03,299 I do read a lot. 842 00:39:03,299 --> 00:39:06,802 But right now I'm rereading a book which is called connect 843 00:39:07,303 --> 00:39:09,805 by Carol Robin. 844 00:39:09,805 --> 00:39:12,683 And connect is, is, 845 00:39:12,683 --> 00:39:18,606 I think it's Harvard, but the carol runs the most oversubscribed Scribd course 846 00:39:18,606 --> 00:39:23,235 on the Harvard MBA course, and it's known universally as the touchy feely course. 847 00:39:23,986 --> 00:39:26,655 And it's so there's the MBA and there's all that kind of series. 848 00:39:26,655 --> 00:39:28,074 You we talked about finances earlier 849 00:39:28,074 --> 00:39:30,576 and how you interpret panel and all those things. 850 00:39:30,576 --> 00:39:33,579 But the touchy feely course is how do you connect with other people. 851 00:39:34,163 --> 00:39:35,790 And it is the single most oversubscribed. 852 00:39:35,790 --> 00:39:38,209 You have to justify getting onto that course. 853 00:39:38,209 --> 00:39:39,752 It's very hard to get on to. 854 00:39:39,752 --> 00:39:42,755 And Carol and her colleagues have written this book called Connect, 855 00:39:43,422 --> 00:39:46,926 and it's it's a series of stories they follow through the book. 856 00:39:46,926 --> 00:39:48,594 It's really beautifully written 857 00:39:48,594 --> 00:39:52,098 about how people connect with each other in a business setting, 858 00:39:53,099 --> 00:39:54,517 and it's so fascinating. 859 00:39:54,517 --> 00:39:57,895 And it's probably 3 or 4 years since I read it, so I pulled it. 860 00:39:57,937 --> 00:39:59,271 I was talking to some of the other day about that. 861 00:39:59,271 --> 00:40:01,690 I pulled it off the shelf, and it's by my book, by my bed right now. 862 00:40:01,690 --> 00:40:04,527 And it's, a fabulous book. 863 00:40:04,527 --> 00:40:06,362 It's a book I wish I'd written. I'm in minds. 864 00:40:06,362 --> 00:40:07,613 Okay. I'm really pleased with it. 865 00:40:07,613 --> 00:40:09,698 But yeah, it's a cracking book. 866 00:40:09,698 --> 00:40:12,159 Well, you know, that's, 867 00:40:12,159 --> 00:40:15,996 that's high praise from any author for someone to say about the other person. 868 00:40:16,038 --> 00:40:16,705 I wish I'd written that. 869 00:40:16,705 --> 00:40:19,417 And there's some of those that I have read, and in some 870 00:40:19,417 --> 00:40:21,919 I've had the chance to tell those people those things. 871 00:40:21,919 --> 00:40:22,461 And so 872 00:40:22,461 --> 00:40:25,923 and we will have that in the show notes, as well as the podcast 873 00:40:25,923 --> 00:40:27,758 that we've mentioned throughout our conversation. 874 00:40:27,758 --> 00:40:30,261 It's it's actually weirdly, connect is a very good audio book. 875 00:40:30,261 --> 00:40:32,596 Sometimes business books. 876 00:40:32,596 --> 00:40:33,764 And I don't think mine's a business book. 877 00:40:33,764 --> 00:40:37,226 I think mine is a self-development book more than anything else, but 878 00:40:37,768 --> 00:40:39,520 it is about business. 879 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,273 But but this particular book works really well as an audiobook. 880 00:40:42,273 --> 00:40:45,985 So if you feel you haven't got time to pick a book up and read it, give it a go. 881 00:40:45,985 --> 00:40:47,695 And audio is is really worth trying. 882 00:40:47,695 --> 00:40:51,073 It's a different, different way of consuming content. 883 00:40:51,323 --> 00:40:56,203 And if people are listening to this podcast, they're already auditory focused. 884 00:40:56,495 --> 00:40:57,788 So why not do that as well? 885 00:40:57,788 --> 00:40:59,373 We we haven't talked with you, Andy, 886 00:40:59,373 --> 00:41:02,835 and I'm going to hold up the book for those who are watching on video, while 887 00:41:02,835 --> 00:41:07,339 you tell people where they can reach you, where do you want to point people? 888 00:41:08,007 --> 00:41:10,926 And if they want a copy of the emotional draft, where do they go? 889 00:41:10,926 --> 00:41:13,554 Just. I'll let you do that for a second. Right now. 890 00:41:13,554 --> 00:41:15,556 Okay? I'm sure most people know where to buy a book. 891 00:41:16,599 --> 00:41:19,018 Amazon, of course, but, local. 892 00:41:19,018 --> 00:41:20,561 Support your local bookstores if you can. 893 00:41:20,561 --> 00:41:22,980 They can definitely get hold of a copy. 894 00:41:22,980 --> 00:41:25,649 It's available universally and, the website. 895 00:41:25,649 --> 00:41:26,984 So emotional overdraft.com. 896 00:41:26,984 --> 00:41:29,945 You can do the self-assessment yourself that we've been talking about. 897 00:41:30,362 --> 00:41:32,239 So you can do that. That's free of charge on there. 898 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,284 Download your own your own results, which might be interesting. 899 00:41:35,284 --> 00:41:39,079 There's also my podcast and lots of I write lots of articles about this 900 00:41:39,079 --> 00:41:40,539 and I speak to lots of people about it. 901 00:41:40,539 --> 00:41:42,458 It's you are not alone. 902 00:41:42,458 --> 00:41:45,044 Everyone deals with this to a greater or lesser extent. 903 00:41:45,044 --> 00:41:46,921 You can do something about it. 904 00:41:46,921 --> 00:41:51,133 You can reverse your emotional overdraft really quickly, but it takes 905 00:41:51,133 --> 00:41:53,594 it takes some. Being deliberate says take a pause. 906 00:41:53,594 --> 00:41:54,845 Take a moment, 907 00:41:54,845 --> 00:41:58,182 reflect on emotional overdraft and if the website helps, emotional overdraft. 908 00:41:58,390 --> 00:41:59,808 Com give it a try. 909 00:41:59,808 --> 00:42:02,102 I hope you'll do that. And before we go, 910 00:42:03,145 --> 00:42:04,563 every 911 00:42:04,563 --> 00:42:08,234 episode I ask you as a listener or viewer of this question 912 00:42:08,234 --> 00:42:11,737 now what what action will you take as a result of this? 913 00:42:11,737 --> 00:42:13,906 And, and 914 00:42:13,906 --> 00:42:17,618 while that is always an important thing, I think from this particular conversation, 915 00:42:17,618 --> 00:42:19,703 there should be plenty for you to think about. 916 00:42:19,703 --> 00:42:23,499 And if all you got was that last point, which was take a breath 917 00:42:23,999 --> 00:42:27,253 and stop and think and make a conscious choice, rather than leaning 918 00:42:27,253 --> 00:42:32,091 into or just relying on whatever your habits are doing to you. 919 00:42:32,091 --> 00:42:35,094 Maybe in some cases, even if it's unintentional. 920 00:42:35,094 --> 00:42:36,720 But whatever it is that you took from this, 921 00:42:36,720 --> 00:42:39,723 my hope is that you will take action and not just 922 00:42:39,932 --> 00:42:42,726 listen and say, oh, that was pretty good. 923 00:42:42,726 --> 00:42:45,980 But rather you say, this is the Andy Brown of all the Andy Browns 924 00:42:45,980 --> 00:42:47,481 on the planet that I want to get to know better. 925 00:42:47,481 --> 00:42:49,775 I need to get a copy of their emotional overdraft 926 00:42:49,775 --> 00:42:53,362 and I and and if you found this useful, which I hope you did, 927 00:42:53,946 --> 00:42:58,242 I also hope that you will share it with someone else, that you will, subscribe 928 00:42:58,242 --> 00:43:01,996 wherever you're getting this content from so you don't miss future episodes. 929 00:43:02,913 --> 00:43:04,039 Andy, thanks so much for being here. 930 00:43:04,039 --> 00:43:06,000 It was a pleasure to have you. You're welcome. 931 00:43:07,001 --> 00:43:08,210 And everybody, 932 00:43:08,210 --> 00:43:11,422 you should subscribe and you should like it. 933 00:43:11,422 --> 00:43:14,425 It depending on where you happen to be listening to it from. 934 00:43:14,550 --> 00:43:17,052 Because we'll be back next week and we hope that you'll be with us 935 00:43:17,052 --> 00:43:20,180 to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.