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High voltage takes center stage
in this season of Hitachi

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Energy's Power Pulse podcast.

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We promise to bring you great content
from the brightest minds in the business.

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We'll discuss challenges, opportunities,
and all the hot topics

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any high voltage enthusiast

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or anyone interested in sustainability
for that matter, is sure to enjoy.

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In this episode of the podcast,
you will meet Rebecka Forward,

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Hitachi Energy's
Product Material Compliance Manager.

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Rebecka holds two chemistry degrees,
both earned in her home country of Canada.

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She has a strong passion
for chemistry and loves

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that it can be found anywhere you look.

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She loves it so much,

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she spent a few years
teaching undergraduate students

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and helping them understand
its intricacies.

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Rebecka's primary focus is ensuring that
high voltage products adhere to global

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materials regulations, guaranteeing
their safety for our valued customers and

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the environment.

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Welcome back to Power Pulse.

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I'm your host, Sam Dash, and today
I'm speaking with Rebecka Forward,

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Product Material Compliance Manager.

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Hi, Rebecka. Hi. So glad to be here today.

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Thank you for having me.

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You're welcome.

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So, Rebecka,
you are a chemist by training.

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You studied at Queen's University
and University of British Columbia.

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What did you enjoy most about your
training at that stage of your career?

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I think I've always been a bit of a nerd.

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Chemistry was my favorite subject
in high school, and so getting to study it

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and explore it more as I got a bit
older was just really interesting for me.

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It's always been a big passion.

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I think there's so much to learn.

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I think there's a lot of intricacies
when you look at things

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at that small of a space, and
so always have been a point of interest.

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Now, I remember reading in your bio
that you really enjoy the outdoors.

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Absolutely.

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Do you feel like
there was some sort of connection

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for you between your love of chemistry
and your love of the outdoors?

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Did those feel like they overlapped
for you?

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To be honest, I think I do see them as
kind of two different worlds that I love.

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But I think when you kind of
look at the world itself,

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you can always break it into chemistry,
physics and mathematics, you know?

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Yeah.

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I think that's kind of the beauty

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of like exploration and being outdoors
is that you can kind of explain

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all of the things in the natural world
using chemistry, physics and mathematics.

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Yeah, I love that.

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Let's get into more of the chemistry.

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First things first.

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The ‘F’ in F-gas
stands for fluoride or fluorine.

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Is that right? Yes. It's
never what people think it is.

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It's definitely fluorine.

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So what exactly is fluorine?

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It's an element on the periodic table.

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It's always at the top right corner.

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And so that also can tell us a bit
about the properties.

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One of the properties of being at the top
right corner, it means it loves electron

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density – really wants to pull electron
density towards it.

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And that's actually one of the properties

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that's going to make it such a good gas
for high voltage equipment.

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And is it true that tennis balls
used to be filled with SF6?

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I was actually just as surprised as you
when I came across that little tidbit.

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It's actually true.

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They don't do it anymore, obviously,
for the environmental reasons.

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But actually, if you kind of think
about a helium balloon,

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you know, after a few days
that helium kind of dissipates, right?

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And that's

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because most materials you can kind of
look at as a bit like a cheese

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grater, there's a little bit of holes
in between everything.

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And when you have something like helium
gas that's really, really tiny,

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it can move through those holes
in the cheese grater pretty quickly.

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Whereas SF6,
if you think about it, it’s sulfur

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with six fluorines,
it's quite a large molecule.

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And so I think the incentive was
if they put these larger gas molecules,

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it'll be harder to go through those holes
in the cheese grater

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and it'll stay at a higher pressure
for longer, and your tennis ball will work

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a little better.

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I love that analogy of the cheese grater.

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I feel like that's such a great visual
for our listeners.

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So you said sulfur
and that refers to the ‘S’ in SF6.

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Yeah.

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And you've described a bit
what fluorine is like as a component.

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Yeah. What is sulfur like?

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How would you describe sulfur?

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In the periodic table, it's actually
structured in such an intelligent way.

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We get information from the rows
that the element is in the periodic table

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and the columns.

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And so sulfur is just one below oxygen
on the periodic table.

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So have some similar properties
but a much – I guess

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– lower affinity for electron density
than in something like oxygen.

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And what makes it such a good pair
with fluorine?

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So sulfur is a bit of a larger atom.

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It's one row down in the periodic table,
which means it's a little bit

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bigger, has a little bit
more electron density.

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Some of those electrons
aren't being held on so tightly.

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So it can share a little bit more of that
electron density with fluorine.

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And fluorine likes that because fluorine’s

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a little greedy, really wants to hold on
to all that electron density.

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Then it works as a good pair.

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Got it.

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Got it.

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A good but at times not necessarily
the safest pair.

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Definitely.

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It really depends on
how you're using these compounds.

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Yeah. Absolutely.

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So I've heard that also SF6 may be used

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in eye surgery
to help repair damaged retinas.

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Is that right?

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Well I'm no ophthalmologist,
so please don't quote me on this one,

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but it's actually a very similar analogy
to the cheese grater.

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So when you have just undergone surgery,
you want to kind of fill the eye

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with a bit of gas to kind of protect
and allow time for that to repair.

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If you use something like helium,
it would dissipate really quickly

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and not give the tissue
the time it needed to repair.

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Now, SF6 is actually nontoxic for humans,

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which is also one of the factors
of why it was used so readily.

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So it's nontoxic.
It won't absorb into the skin.

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It won't hurt you as a person,
but it gives the eye the time to heal

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because it can't get through those cheese
grater holes.

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Yeah, right.

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Obviously you had your training
in university, but have you also gathered

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some of this knowledge
through your experience at Hitachi Energy?

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Yeah, I mean,
you spend a lot of time at university

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and a little bit more time than anyone
else wants to spend working on chemistry.

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But then

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also just with my past experiences,
I worked at a contract research company,

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got a huge amount of diverse experience

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learning
about these different compounds there.

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And then when I came to Hitachi Energy,
it was a nice opportunity

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to really focus on,
like the specifics and dive into a niche.

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And so I have a lot of really intelligent
coworkers in the R&D team

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that have taught me
so much of what I know,

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and that's
how I can kind of talk about it now.

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There's a lot of collaboration
with my colleagues,

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but it's been really interesting
to learn about.

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Yeah, I love how it sounds like everyone
sort of shares

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their knowledge, and it's very,
a communal environment.

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Absolutely.

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It's one of the things I like the most
about working here – is really working

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with some truly intelligent, smart,
interesting people.

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Each expert that we've spoken to so far
here at the table,

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they've explained
how bad SF6 is for the planet.

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I'm wondering
what are the exact documented drawbacks of

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SF6 that you're aware of?

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The biggest drawback of SF6 is its high
global warming potential,

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or people refer to it as GWP, and so it's
quite harmful for the environment.

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So why don't we dive into a little bit
about what that actually means.

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Of course we have the sun
which shines down light or heat.

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I’ll kind of use them interchangeably,
but shines heat onto the Earth.

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And now that's going to be readily
reflected back.

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And so that's maybe on glaciers, on snow,
on any other highly reflective surface

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on the Earth.

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Then that heat gets reflected and
dissipates into space naturally cooling.

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Right? We're removing some heat.

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When we have a lot of high global warming
potential molecules in the atmosphere,

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those molecules absorb
that heat and can re-irradiate it.

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So you almost get this ricochet effect
where it's kind of bouncing between

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these molecules in the atmosphere,
back to Earth,

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back to the molecules back to Earth,

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so that heat isn't getting dissipated
into space.

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It's staying around the Earth and slowly
contributing to increase in temperature.

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With a sort of fair visual be almost as
if you have two mirrors- Exactly.

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Sort of facing each other.
Is that right? Absolutely.

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You could picture me in space
and you on the ground,

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and we're just ricocheting this back
and forth.

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And it’s unable to escape. Is that right?

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Yeah. Yeah.

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So there's two major factors
that kind of contribute

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to how high a global warming
potential gas can have.

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And so the first one is how much heat
it can absorb.

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And the other is
how much of it is in the atmosphere.

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Funnily enough, water vapor

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is actually a really strong greenhouse gas
because it can absorb a lot of heat.

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But as we've all learned in school,

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water in oceans and rivers gets vaporized
a little bit into the atmosphere.

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Then it condenses in clouds
and it comes down as snow or rain.

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That cycle is actually relatively
very short, so it mitigates

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the amount of time that this water vapor
is in the atmosphere.

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So it absorbs heat very well,
but it doesn't stick around for very long.

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Right. Now SF6 is not that situation.

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SF6 is very good at absorbing heat
and it stays in the atmosphere

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for a very long time.

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One thing that seems consistent across
every grid, across the world

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is that they all seem to rely on SF6
to varying degrees.

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What are the alternatives for a circuit
breaker that has been using SF6 reliably?

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It's a really good question
and it's also a bit complex.

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So why don't I break it up
into a couple of components.

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First off, one of our major uses of SF6
is in the circuit breaker.

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And so you can think of a circuit breaker
very much like a fuse

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but for an energy grid system
rather than for your home.

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The fundamentals of the circuit breaker
is there's two pins,

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and when connected, electricity
can easily flow between them.

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When you have some type
of electrical disturbance,

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maybe a lightning bolt,
and you need to stop the flow

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of electricity to protect the grid,

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you can separate these two pins
and stop the flow of electricity.

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So is that for instance, like,

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you know, I think I grew up learning
that you should unplug things

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like your computer
when there's going to be a lightning storm

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or something like that,
so that there isn't a surge of electricity

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that burns out your computers,
that what we're talking about.

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Exactly.

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And if we have the interruption
of electricity properly,

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then you don't have to worry about that
electrical surge.

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Basically, when we're working
with some high voltage applications,

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when you separate these pins,
you can actually have electricity kind of

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jumping between these two pins –
that would be called an electrical arc.

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And this is where we use these insulating
gases to mitigate this occurrence.

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Right.

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And so the gases have two primary
functions.

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One is the property of being insulating.

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You can kind of think about this
like for instance in your home

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when you're cooking
you're going to use a metal frying pan.

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The metal conducts electricity very well.

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It conducts heat very well.
And you can use it for cooking your food.

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Yeah.

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Whereas something like plastic
or rubber is very insulating

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and therefore you can't have electricity
moving through it.

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So you can think of these insulating gases
almost as a gaseous rubber.

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It's hard for electricity to move
through it so it can help prevent an arc.

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It acts as an obstacle.
Is that right? Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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It's harder to run through that difficult
material.

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It's really pushing you back,
giving you some resistance.

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And the second function is
when the arc has formed.

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It's very dependent
on how hot it is to maintain that arc.

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So in order to quench it, you want to
remove heat as quickly as possible.

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You want a molecule that can readily
absorb heat and dissipate it,

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which if that rings any bells,
it sounds very similar to what's happening

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when these molecules are in the atmosphere
absorbing a lot of heat.

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Right. Right.

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So we're designing them
for these certain applications.

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And so SF6 is a very good insulator

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and it's also very good
at dissipating heat away from the arc.

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00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,400
That's a very difficult set of particular
properties to try to replace.

235
00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,480
And so what we've done
actually is use an eco-gas mixture

236
00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,320
with multiple different gases that each
have these individual properties.

237
00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:26,600
And we can use them
in very specific ratios to kind of create

238
00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:28,680
a mixture that can do the whole function.

239
00:11:28,680 --> 00:11:32,040
Some of these gases individually
couldn't be used in the pure sense

240
00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,200
because maybe one is good at insulating
but it's bad at heat removal.

241
00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:35,480
Right.

242
00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,120
Or maybe one's good at heat removal,
but it's bad at insulation.

243
00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:38,800
So you have to come up

244
00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,960
with your own recipe
that uses the best function of each gas.

245
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:42,840
Exactly.

246
00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:47,160
Again, those very smart R&D
scientists have managed to find a recipe

247
00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:52,400
where they can adjust those specifications
so that they can get a 99% reduction

248
00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,840
in the global warming potential compared
to SF6, but maintain the properties

249
00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:00,200
that are required for a safe
and operating electrical grid system.

250
00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,000
Sort of keeping up the efficacy of SF6.

251
00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:03,760
Absolutely.

252
00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:04,920
Without the dangers.

253
00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,600
Yeah, because it's really non-negotiable
in our field.

254
00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:09,400
We have to make products that are safe.

255
00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,000
So we need to maintain the quality.

256
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,520
But it's also,
you know, it's so important to try to work

257
00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,400
towards more environmentally friendly
alternatives.

258
00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,400
Rebecka,
you mentioned earlier this term eco-gas.

259
00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,080
Can you tell us what is an eco-gas?

260
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:27,160
The eco-gas we use or we call it
EconiQ is a mixture of different gases.

261
00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,840
And just to kind of circle back
this is to meet those properties

262
00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,960
of the insulating capacity that we need
and the heat dissipation properties

263
00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,560
to when we mix all these different gases
together,

264
00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:41,320
we get the same functional properties
required that we would for SF6.

265
00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,720
The difference is – as
we were again talking global warming

266
00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,120
potential –
our eco-gas has one fluorinated gas in it.

267
00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:49,480
C4 fluoronitrile.

268
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,560
This gas dissipates
in the environment in 30 years

269
00:12:52,560 --> 00:12:56,400
and it degrades into readily available
natural byproducts.

270
00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:01,640
So the lifetime is relatively low
in comparison to SF6, SF6 stays around

271
00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,320
for over 3000 years in the environment.

272
00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,800
So when we do a comparison,
you can really see that not all F-gases

273
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:08,720
are the same.

274
00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,720
There's even nuance
between this category F-gas.

275
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,040
And when you say the component
in EconiQ breaks down

276
00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,040
into natural compounds,
what does that mean?

277
00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,840
These PFAS or these fluorinated compounds
are manmade chemicals.

278
00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,360
But when this one manmade chemical
is released into the environment,

279
00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,640
it actually splits apart
into other different compounds.

280
00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,800
And those compounds
you find naturally in the environment.

281
00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:33,560
If something breaks down

282
00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:37,520
into natural compounds, does
that ensure a certain level of safety?

283
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,760
I think in comparison
to these manmade fluoro-chemicals,

284
00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,840
they are inherently less hazardous
for this particular example.

285
00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:47,440
Yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong.

286
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,200
Is this EconiQ?

287
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:50,160
This is our EconiQ.

288
00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:50,280
Yeah.

289
00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,640
Yeah, I do wonder
if you can talk us through how long have

290
00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,440
regulators been aware
that SF6 gas is not great

291
00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:58,560
for the environment?

292
00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:02,200
And in what ways are people
in the industry or businesses already

293
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,440
phasing out SF6?

294
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,440
I think, as I mentioned,
because of those insulating

295
00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,560
and temperature removal properties, it's
very difficult to replace.

296
00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,440
But I think the industry is well aware
of how harmful SF6 can be

297
00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:15,360
for the environment.

298
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:19,680
And I think we're seeing a lot of pushes
in terms of technological development

299
00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,800
in the entire sector to really try to move
towards more environmentally

300
00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:28,440
friendly opportunities, and that's exactly
the purpose of our EconiQ portfolio.

301
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,800
Now, of course,
you can't just swap one gas for another.

302
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,560
These circuit breakers are designed
with such precision, such intricacies

303
00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,560
that you need to redevelop
some of those technologies.

304
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,640
And that's currently what we're really
pushing here at Hitachi Energy

305
00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,960
is to to move forward with our environment
as being a big priority.

306
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:47,440
Because you've been talking about

307
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,880
how fluorine is being used
in these different capacities.

308
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:57,800
It makes me want to ask you about PFAS,
is that, am I saying– PFAS PFAS okay.

309
00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:00,800
And PFAS and then PFOAS?

310
00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:01,440
Yeah.

311
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,000
Can you help us understand what those are
and what brought those

312
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,920
to the forefront of consumer
health and safety?

313
00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,200
Yeah, I think it's a really hot topic
right now to talk about PFAS.

314
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:16,840
First of all, I'll define, so PFAS stands
for Per- and Polyfluoroalkyl Substances.

315
00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:19,600
Now this is really the time
I'd love to have a whiteboard

316
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,600
and a marker and just be able
to, to kind of share with everybody.

317
00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:28,120
But these are carbon-based substances that
are highly substituted with fluorines.

318
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,720
So, they have a lot of fluorine
attached to them.

319
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:32,480
Now, these are manmade chemicals.

320
00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:36,360
They're designed to be very robust
in harsh environments.

321
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:40,040
For instance, in the circuit breaker,
it can reach 19,000 degrees.

322
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:41,840
We need chemicals
that are going to be able

323
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,840
to withstand these temperatures
in these harsh conditions.

324
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:46,760
PFAS are also designed.

325
00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:49,040
They have a tendency to be very inert.

326
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,400
They don't react
with many other compounds.

327
00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,440
They make very good coatings, for instance
waterproofing for jackets,

328
00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,880
stain resistant carpets, milk containers.

329
00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:03,040
Another common one is in pizza boxes so
that the cardboard doesn't get too greasy.

330
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:04,960
They have a PFAS coating.

331
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,280
They're abundantly used in consumer goods,

332
00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:12,240
in industry, in medical sector,
really all over.

333
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,840
And I think that we want a quick
and easy answer.

334
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,160
We want to say no PFAS or all PFAS.

335
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,120
We want to make it a bit more simple.

336
00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:23,160
And my heart goes out to the regulators
because it's such a challenging topic.

337
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,520
Even, for instance,
the way we define PFAS is different.

338
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,400
The European Union has a very broad
definition of PFAS.

339
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:31,120
The U.S.

340
00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,040
has many definitions of what PFAS are.

341
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,960
For instance,
the Toxic Controlled Substance Act in

342
00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,480
the United States has a very narrow
definition of what PFAS is,

343
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:45,000
and that narrow definition encompasses
more than 12,000 different chemicals.

344
00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:45,920
Right.

345
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,920
I think when you look at 12,000
of anything as a chemist,

346
00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,160
some of those are going
to be very harmful, like PFOA,

347
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,560
and some of them are going to be
not so harmful like

348
00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,960
PTFE, Teflon;
it's a coating for your frying pans.

349
00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:02,040
We use it in our circuit breakers.

350
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,880
And I think it's hard to
sometimes distinguish this nuance,

351
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,880
even as a chemist,
even as an expert in the field.

352
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,840
And I think it really depends on
how we're using these substances

353
00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,400
and how we're disposing
of these substances. Right.

354
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,720
As a consumer in the world,
I'm actually quite concerned

355
00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,040
with the number of PFAS that we have
in our food products, in our clothing.

356
00:17:21,120 --> 00:17:24,720
Those types of consumer good products
have high contact with human beings.

357
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:29,040
They also have very high likeliness
of being disposed in landfills,

358
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:34,040
where those PFAS can then enter our water
systems, which I think is concerning.

359
00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,920
However, on the flip side,
the ways that we use them,

360
00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:38,840
I know in our circuit breaker
technologies,

361
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,280
I think it would be concerning
if we didn't use those.

362
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:43,720
Removing some PFAS
from this really installed

363
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,520
infrastructure has a lot of negative
safety implications,

364
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,960
which really, I think, add to the nuance
and complexity of this issue.

365
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:54,720
And is there the same sort of initiative
to try

366
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:59,200
and replace more hazardous PFAS in a way
that is similar

367
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,280
to how people are trying
to replace the use of SF6?

368
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,320
Yeah, I think that PFAS is a little bit
more complicated

369
00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,280
because it's not a set of certain
applications.

370
00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:16,000
A lot of SF6 is used in our
electrical equipment as an insulating gas.

371
00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,760
It's similar circumstances.

372
00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,400
PFAS is really used,
like I said, in the automotive industry,

373
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,560
in the medical industry,
in the energy sector, in clothing

374
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,040
and all these types of products,
it's very diverse.

375
00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:33,000
So I think that we really need to work
on strategies that focus differently

376
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,080
for maybe industry
sectors versus for consumer goods.

377
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:40,480
And like you said, there's also been
attention towards how these chemicals

378
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,640
are disposed of or the safety precautions
around factories, etc..

379
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:50,080
How much of your work is interfacing
with how chemicals are safely disposed of?

380
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:51,480
I know that in the States

381
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,560
and probably in other countries,
there have been issues around PFAS leaking

382
00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,480
into drinking water and causing
all sorts of health issues for people.

383
00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:01,200
Absolutely.

384
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,080
I think especially when we have spills

385
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,360
from chemical manufacturers,
that's one of the most concerning

386
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:12,040
PFAS contaminations possible, especially
when it's in consumer drinking water.

387
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,240
These compounds, again,
it depends on the type of PFAS.

388
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,440
But they also can be very harmful
for individuals,

389
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,560
and they have a high likeliness
for contaminating waterways because,

390
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:28,200
like I said, we designed these chemicals
to be resistant, inert, to not break down.

391
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,440
And so when they get into our waterways,

392
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,200
they're resistant, inert,
and they don't break down.

393
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,640
So they are persistent chemicals.

394
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,760
And so I think that the way we recycle

395
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:43,200
and dispose of these chemicals
is one of the most important factors.

396
00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:45,760
And just to kind of circle back,
that's again

397
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:46,760
a major component

398
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,200
why we need to mitigate the amount
in consumer goods,

399
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,640
because it's hard to control
how those are disposed of.

400
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,360
Whereas for instance,
in the medical sector and in the energy

401
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:57,600
sector here at Hitachi Energy,
we have strict procedures

402
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,600
for how equipment is handled,
that end of product life.

403
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,240
We also have high product life spans.

404
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,680
A lot of our products
are meant to last 60 years,

405
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,680
and they're only operated
by trained professionals,

406
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,680
so we can properly control and dispose
of any compounds that are used.

407
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,560
Whereas in some other sectors
it's very hard to control

408
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,560
how they will be disposed of.

409
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:19,240
Yeah.

410
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,960
Additionally you mentioned PFOA. Yeah.

411
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:26,800
So this compound has something in
chemistry called a carboxylic acid group.

412
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,280
And so this group is going to be slightly
water loving.

413
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:35,120
A lot of these PFAS are hydrophobic
which means they don't like water.

414
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,480
For instance PTFE – a Teflon pan
you know is,

415
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,720
if you put a water drop on it,
you can see a bubble.

416
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,560
It's very resistant to water,

417
00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:47,640
whereas some of these other carboxylic
acid based PFAS groups are going to have

418
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,840
a slightly higher affinity
for water than these Teflon compounds.

419
00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:57,240
And so they can be very challenging to
remove from the water and very expensive.

420
00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,560
And I think that can pose a lot of harm.

421
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:01,320
So we need to take into account

422
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:05,240
the physical state
and chemical structure of these compounds

423
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,720
as part of our strategies
for how to safely handle these materials.

424
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:14,080
Considering what we've talked about
with the dangers of PFAS and PFOAS

425
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:19,760
and SF6, for that matter, how has all of
that knowledge of how those gases operate

426
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:25,400
and the dangers that they pose informed
how you go about creating this new gas?

427
00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:31,680
So there is one component of our EconiQ
gas that is considered a PFAS.

428
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,680
And really that's because
with these incredibly harsh conditions

429
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,680
that we need to meet in this,
these circuit breaker technologies,

430
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,600
it's currently unavoidable to us.

431
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,440
But what we've done is we've been able
to orchestrate the designs

432
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,600
that we’re actually,
instead of using 100% of a PFAS

433
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:53,720
or other F-gas,
we're now only using 3 to 5%.

434
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,200
So we've really tried to reduce
as much as possible

435
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,520
the amount of these compounds
that we are using.

436
00:21:59,520 --> 00:21:59,840
Yeah.

437
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,360
We are really proud
of our EconiQ technology

438
00:22:02,360 --> 00:22:06,000
because by utilizing that
3 to 5% of a PFAS gas,

439
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,560
we can actually reduce the global warming
potential associated with this technology

440
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:14,440
by 99% compared
to the only other available transmission

441
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,360
high voltage breaker on the market,
which is utilizing SF6 technology.

442
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,360
In addition, we've done third party
validated lifecycle assessments,

443
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,600
which show we have the lowest carbon
footprint on the market.

444
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,360
Yeah, I get the sense that you are
an ambitious and positive

445
00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:31,360
force here at Hitachi Energy.

446
00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:32,560
Well, thank you very much.

447
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,680
My background is making solar panels.

448
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,960
Clean technology is kind of
at the forefront of my motivations.

449
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:39,080
Yeah.

450
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,800
Rebecka, if there was one thing
you would like our listeners

451
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,800
to take away from our discussion today,
what would that be?

452
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,040
Letting me talk, the thing I love most.

453
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,480
I think I would have to pull from a book
I love by Adam Grant called Think Again.

454
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,800
Now, he encourages us to think
like scientists.

455
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,600
He says we need to gather information.

456
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,920
We need to be curious, and we need to
rethink some of our held beliefs.

457
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,400
As humans, we’re bad
at trying to contradict our own beliefs.

458
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,280
So sometimes seeking information
that goes against maybe something

459
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,280
we already think can be really valuable
for our learning process.

460
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,600
When we think like scientists
a little bit more,

461
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,360
we can kind of start to break down
some of that nuance.

462
00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:21,720
I think in today's society,
with Instagram and TikTok,

463
00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:24,920
we are always wanting those bold,
punchy statements.

464
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,920
We want something to be all good
or something to be all bad.

465
00:23:28,360 --> 00:23:31,800
But in science and in chemistry,
not all chemicals are bad.

466
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,240
Not all chemicals are good.

467
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,280
And so I think it's really interesting to
kind of dive in, learn a little bit more.

468
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:39,600
And I really want to iterate

469
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,960
that you don't have to be a scientist
to think like a scientist.

470
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:44,360
I love that.

471
00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:49,320
Empowers us all to be a scientist and
gather information from various sources

472
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,360
and inspect where the data is coming from
or who's paying for it, etc..

473
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:54,440
Absolutely.

474
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,720
And I think when we think about Instagram
and TikTok, the goal

475
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,920
for those individuals isn't to give you
accurate, representative information.

476
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,000
It's to keep you on the app
and to keep you engaged.

477
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,640
So sometimes that's not the best
resources for our learning.

478
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,640
And to also understand
really complex topics

479
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,640
like PFAS that have a lot of nuance
and have a lot of depth.

480
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,640
And I think one thing
we do need to be really conscientious of

481
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,920
is to make sure when we remove
a harmful chemical and replace it,

482
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,000
that we're not using a bad alternative,
something's just as harmful,

483
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,520
and we're replacing something bad
with something bad,

484
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,960
then we're not any net further ahead.
Yeah.

485
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,880
So I think also really trying to be
cognizant and and really thinking through

486
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,240
how are we going
to replace these compounds

487
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,600
and how do we do it
safely and effectively.

488
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:39,640
Beautifully said.

489
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,880
Well, thanks so much for joining us
today, Rebecka.

490
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,840
It's been an absolute pleasure.

491
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,560
Well thank you so much for having me.

492
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,440
I think I enjoyed this
as much as I hope the audience will.

493
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:49,520
You’re very welcome.

494
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,200
You've given us great clarity on SF6
and how to navigate the other

495
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,280
chemical alternatives
we're encountering today and in the world,

496
00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,000
and in the pursuit of efficiency
as well as sustainability.

497
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,000
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of
Power Pulse.

498
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:03,960
Until next time.

499
00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:06,320
And that's it for today.

500
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,640
We'll be back soon
with some more great content.

501
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:10,800
But before you go,
remember to give us a follow

502
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,400
so you don't miss an episode.

503
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,720
Thanks for tuning in. See you soon!

504
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,560
This episode was brought to you by Hitachi
Energy.

505
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,440
Created
and introduced by Bárbara Freitas-Daniels.

506
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,800
Content and script
writing by Cassandra Inay.

507
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,200
Guest speaker, Rebecka Forward.

508
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:26,760
Hosted by Sam Dash.

509
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,800
Produced and edited by Creative Chimps.