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Cybersecurity today, we'd like to thank
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This podcast Meter delivers a complete
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You can find them at meter.com/cst.

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Welcome to Cybersecurity Today, the
dark side of Valentine's Day edition.

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We've got a special show for you.

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Today is in all things cybersecurity,
it seems, we're looking on

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the dark side of romance now.

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Most of us have experienced a breakup.

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Some of us, maybe more than others.

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I've always admired those people
who split up amicably, and, but for

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many others, it's one day you have
a person you fall in love with.

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You share your inner feelings,
your dreams, someone you're totally

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vulnerable to, and then before you know
it, you don't recognize that person.

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You wonder.

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If you ever were really in love
with them or they were in love with

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you, and now all that vulnerability
comes back to hurt you and that's

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an experience that people have had.

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It's why we have country music.

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but I don't wanna trivialize this, the
emotionality of breakups and of love and

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of loneliness and of those human emotions
isn't something we talk a lot about.

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It is something that is powerful
and affects people around us.

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And I ask you to imagine this is that,
you know what, if you had somebody

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in your life and they didn't even
love you, they just manipulated you.

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And what if they exploited
that vulnerability, that trust?

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What if when the breakup happens, you
find not only is your heart broken,

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but they've stolen your money, maybe
taken your house, taking your savings.

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For some, they've taken the dream
of a retirement with dignity.

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They've left you impoverished
and you let them do it willingly.

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How crushing would that be?

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You don't, you not only have the
heartbreak and the loss, but you

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also don't wanna share it with
anybody 'cause you feel guilty and

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you feel that it's your mistake.

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You feel like a fool, you're embarrassed.

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I can't talk about the average
romance, but I can tell you that

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these romance scams, they exist.

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And if you think it couldn't
happen to you, good for you.

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But it can happen to a lot of
people and the victims aren't fools.

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They're intelligent, they're articulate,
and oftentimes they're experts in their

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own area or field, but they're human.

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And in case you think
this is rare, think again.

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In fact, what you think you know
about romance scams, which is often

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called pig butchering, is probably
wrong unless you've seen the research.

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One in 20 adults who are 65 or older,
have had an encounter with romance

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scams, and that can happen weekly.

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But if you think it's just lonely
old ladies, take another thought.

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Two out of five adults aged
18 to 24 encounter these

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potential romance scams weekly.

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Just on the numbers
alone, , the chances are that.

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You know someone, and maybe that's someone
you care about, who's fallen victim to

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this or who will fall victim to this.

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And if you follow the program, you'll
know how passionate I am about this fraud.

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I cannot begin to think of the
suffering that these innocent people

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feel, how their lives are ruined.

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And I've had the head of Project
Shamrock on the show, a group that

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tries to educate law enforcement on
this type of fraud because that's

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what it is before we judge anybody.

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These people are taken in by
incredibly sophisticated fraudsters,

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and one of our missions on this
show is to educate our audience on

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what this growing problem is about.

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So when some research from McAfee,
the security firm crossed my desk,

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I pinged them right away and managed
not only to get access to one of

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their top researchers, but also
a brave soul that was willing to

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come forward and tell her story.

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We'll start out with the research.

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My guest today is McAfee's, head of
Threat Research, Abha Karnik, welcome.

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Thanks for having me.

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Jim.

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I Saw the report.

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Do you wanna summarize the findings ? I,
the first one just leapt out at me that

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there were a lot of younger people I
was really surprised at those numbers.

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Anything jump out at you from this study?

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Yeah, it's always alarming.

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like you correctly said, one of the things
that scammers, especially in romance

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scams are looking for, they find those
who are most emotionally vulnerable.

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So those are one of the key
things that they look for.

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And when.

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You look at how many people
they target, it's astounding.

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One in four Americans have encountered
some sort of a fake profile.

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AI generated is the thing
nowadays with romance scams.

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So the scams that are thrown
at you are becoming more real.

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And in, in 53% of the scams
that come at you, they ask for

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some sort of financial money.

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So one in seven.

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Americans have lost some sort of
money to romance scams, right?

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And between men and women, even
men are equally vulnerable.

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21% of men have lost
money versus 10% of women.

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which is pretty surprising.

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We all think it's lonely women.

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we have these ideas in our head.

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It turns out men are probably
the bigger victims in many cases.

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Yeah.

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we all have emotional cautions.

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It's it's really, it's
a human thing, right?

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Trust.

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Is a human thing.

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Love is a human thing.

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So I feel, yes, we don't speak about
it enough and that's one of the

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things with romance camps, the biggest
challenge is that a lot of people who

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get, who are victims to romance camps
may never come out and talk about it.

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So I almost feel that the numbers
that we report, that the FTC reports,

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the IIC three ports are probably
way higher than we know, because

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not everybody talks about it.

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Once you fall victim to.

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A scam.

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There are very few like Beth on your
show who come out and talk about it.

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A lot of people prefer not talking
about it because they feel like

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they've done something wrong.

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They feel that they don't have the courage
to tell people that they felt victim.

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So these are very human emotions.

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there's nothing wrong with it.

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Nothing wrong with falling victim,
But I feel that there's a lot

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more out there than we hear about.

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Oh, I'm sure there are.

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And I've talked about this on the show.

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I had a friend.

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Because they, in passing mentioned
the story of this person.

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And because I'm a cybersecurity
person, I picked up on it right away.

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They didn't, and I wonder how many
other stories people just haven't

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shared with me that, and this was,
again, I can't emphasize this enough.

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These are people who are smart.

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They're not fools.

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They're not.

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Even needy.

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They like, they're regular people and
these are very effective fraudsters who

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know how to, they study how to do this
and they know how to manipulate people.

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I, that, I can't say any more than that.

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This isn't, a one-off thing anymore.

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Like you said, there are in,
this is an industry, right?

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There are trained professionals.

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Trained in psychology, trained in
understanding how you think, how you feel.

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they don't just randomly show up.

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They target you in many cases.

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So if you have a profile out
there, they'll read about you.

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They'll understand what you're
looking for, and they'll use

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that against you in many ways.

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They'll try to have the, that they'll try
to build that emotional connection with

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you and once they make that connection.

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They draw you in.

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Once they draw you in, you'll get scammed.

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So it's, there's many scams out there.

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you have the simplest scams, which are,
which take five minutes or 10 minutes.

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At an average, you could spend about
36 minutes, is what researchers at

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McAfee found that it takes about
36 minutes for a, any random scam.

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But romance scams, on the other
hand, tend to be a little longer

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drawn because when they scam you of
a lot more money than a typical scam.

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so this can be in, in a few thousands
or tens of thousands sometimes.

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I wanna just go and show, McAfee
was good enough to introduce me to

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Beth Highland and Beth Highland.

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Has been scammed and has had the
courage to come out and not only talk

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about it, but she's also put out a
book about it called Romance Scam when

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Swiping Right goes wrong, and you'll
find in that story, a lot of the things

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that we've talked about and more.

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We're gonna run that for you now and then
Abha and I'll come back on the other side

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Yeah.

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We're gonna, we're gonna play Beth's
story, as part of this show, and she

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was kind enough to share her story.

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I wanna thank you for doing this,
and I wanna, talk to you a little bit

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about exactly what has happened to you.

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What, describe in your own
words what, what has happened.

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Okay.

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I will start back with my divorce,
which was now six years ago.

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at the time it had been four years,
and my divorce was a good thing.

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It was a brand new beginning.

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It was a time for me to get
to know who I was again.

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So I spent the next four years, like
I moved to LA and exploring who I was.

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I'm from the Detroit area and
I'm now in Portage, Michigan.

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And it was great.

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I, I had the time of my life.

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I've always been okay being alone.

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And then when I moved here to
Portage, I finally, I realized

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that I was, I felt settled.

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This is where I wanna be.

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All of, everything that had happened
over the last four years just hit me.

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It hit me hard, the divorce, just
moving around so much, not having

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roots, and I just needed to decompress.

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And I I went into a period of
isolation and this was, spring

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of 2023, spring and summer.

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So I just, I don't know,
I just wasn't going out.

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I was staying a lot.

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And then fall rolled around and I
felt like I was coming out of it and I

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thought, dating is the missing piece.

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Maybe I. Anxious to date.

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I wasn't desperate or
lonely for a relationship.

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I just thought maybe I should just get
out there and see what's out there.

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So I created a profile on Tinder
and two of my coworkers met their

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significant others on Tinder.

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So I thought, all right,
maybe this is a good option.

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So I got my profile and, swiped
on different men and nothing ever

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came of anything, just chatting.

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And then I saw this profile.

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That was really intriguing to me.

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It just, I don't know.

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I swear he saw my
profile, the scammer and.

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me and just created this profile
that was very similar to mine.

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I'm a spiritual person.

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I'm into self-development, and my
profile reflected that and his did too.

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So I was p my interest.

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So I swiped, and when I saw
those words, it's a match.

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I felt elated.

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I swear he had me at, it's a match.

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That's what I tell people.

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So I reached out to him immediately
and, just told him, I said,

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Hey, I really like your profile.

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How are you doing?

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And he reached out back and
then we just started chatting.

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Like it was like every day we were
chatting and it was just this very simple.

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Easy conversation, easy
conversations that we had.

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They were just, had a nice flow to
them, a nice give and take, and it never

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felt it was rushed, but he never felt.

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Pushy.

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Like I've started talking with guys
and I felt that pushiness, like they

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were just rushing, rushing, rushing.

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Let's get into a relationship.

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And I'm like, wait, no.

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And then I just would feel suffocated,
but nothing, there was nothing like that.

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He just would ans he would just ask me
questions and was so focused on me and

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whatever I would answer, he would just
come back with a very sweet reply and just

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very, it was just very focused on me and.

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And I just, that drew me in my,
when I go back and read the text

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now, I just, it, I'm like, wow.

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It just drew me in and I didn't
even realize it was happening.

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I didn't realize it was a
manipulation, obviously.

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And so the second week we said
we were, we already said we

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were falling for each other.

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I just remember thinking, God, am
I bawling for this guy already?

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It just seems so quick, but I just felt
I'm, I've been through a lot of, I was

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52 at the time and I know what I want
and he knew how to mirror what I wanted.

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He was like the male version of me.

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And then the second weekend we were
supposed to meet, he, said he was in Fort

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00:12:48,844 --> 00:12:50,494
Wayne, Indiana, which was about two hours.

232
00:12:50,494 --> 00:12:54,784
So we were gonna meet up like halfway, but
he said he might have to go to San Diego.

233
00:12:55,489 --> 00:12:56,149
For business.

234
00:12:56,149 --> 00:13:01,309
He said he was a freelance project manager
for a construction company and there

235
00:13:01,309 --> 00:13:04,939
was a project that he thought might be
getting behind, so he had to fly over

236
00:13:04,939 --> 00:13:09,139
there and, see what was going on and
thought it would only be a week or two.

237
00:13:09,139 --> 00:13:11,819
So I thought, okay, we'll just
keep chatting and then, that.

238
00:13:12,734 --> 00:13:17,714
So that weekend that he went over there,
I remember, first of all, I remember

239
00:13:17,714 --> 00:13:22,604
doing a reverse image, not a reverse
image search, but a Google search because

240
00:13:22,634 --> 00:13:27,284
I, my, my coworkers had done background
checks on, their significant others.

241
00:13:27,284 --> 00:13:30,674
I thought maybe that's not a good, maybe,
excuse me, maybe that's not a bad idea.

242
00:13:31,274 --> 00:13:35,104
I went to Google him and I couldn't
find anything on him, and I just

243
00:13:35,104 --> 00:13:36,694
thought, that's really weird.

244
00:13:36,694 --> 00:13:40,474
And I just thought, can you hide
yourself from a Google search?

245
00:13:40,524 --> 00:13:44,814
I read some things that said you
could, so I just, I was already too

246
00:13:44,814 --> 00:13:48,894
in, so I just decided that, okay, maybe
he's just a really private person.

247
00:13:49,434 --> 00:13:54,054
But I remember that night, and
I think this is the night that

248
00:13:54,054 --> 00:13:55,974
he was flying over to San Diego.

249
00:13:55,974 --> 00:13:57,444
I just remember feeling like.

250
00:13:58,269 --> 00:14:00,039
Something is really wrong.

251
00:14:00,069 --> 00:14:02,859
And it just was this
overwhelming clarity that I had.

252
00:14:03,369 --> 00:14:09,519
And then later that evening we had not
talked, we had not texted in between

253
00:14:09,519 --> 00:14:13,929
this time, that later that evening I
remember feeling all these just romantic

254
00:14:13,929 --> 00:14:18,609
feelings and I was just like, man, there's
gotta be a good explanation for it.

255
00:14:19,149 --> 00:14:22,379
And I just dismissed it
and it was just like I was.

256
00:14:23,744 --> 00:14:27,884
Not in it quite enough to where I
could get some clarity, but in it too

257
00:14:27,884 --> 00:14:31,784
much for that clarity to disappear,
like for me to just ignore it.

258
00:14:32,504 --> 00:14:36,014
then that we, he, let's
see, this was Friday.

259
00:14:36,644 --> 00:14:40,064
So Sunday comes around and he.

260
00:14:40,679 --> 00:14:42,019
He broke up with me.

261
00:14:42,019 --> 00:14:47,059
That was the day actually that
he video called me using ai.

262
00:14:47,359 --> 00:14:52,369
He, it looked like his picture
and, but he said he couldn't hear

263
00:14:52,369 --> 00:14:54,979
me, and so I was so distracted by.

264
00:14:56,539 --> 00:14:59,469
Trying to figure out what
was going on with my speaker.

265
00:14:59,559 --> 00:15:03,499
And I could see it enough to see that it
was him, but I wouldn't have been able

266
00:15:03,499 --> 00:15:08,089
to tell that it was AI or that I think
it was a little grainy, but I, even

267
00:15:08,089 --> 00:15:11,269
if I saw it, I probably just would've
thought it's just a bad connection.

268
00:15:11,869 --> 00:15:16,149
So he hangs up after 30 seconds
and I said, maybe like when you, he

269
00:15:16,149 --> 00:15:17,319
said, I have to go into a meeting.

270
00:15:17,319 --> 00:15:20,224
So I said, maybe after we,
we could do a video call.

271
00:15:20,854 --> 00:15:22,384
And then later he says.

272
00:15:24,364 --> 00:15:28,564
He says that I, man, I had to fire
all the site manager and all the

273
00:15:28,564 --> 00:15:30,544
construction workers, the projects behind.

274
00:15:31,024 --> 00:15:32,374
I'm just gonna go home and go to bed.

275
00:15:32,514 --> 00:15:38,619
and then he said, in fact, I hate
to say this, but I, I. I don't know

276
00:15:38,619 --> 00:15:40,179
if I'm ready for a relationship.

277
00:15:40,389 --> 00:15:43,569
I have this contract to figure out and
I just don't know if I could focus.

278
00:15:43,569 --> 00:15:44,559
I, I wanna be friends.

279
00:15:44,569 --> 00:15:50,119
I don't wanna lose contact, but I just, I
if you find somebody else, I understand.

280
00:15:50,119 --> 00:15:52,489
And I just was like, I don't
wanna find somebody else.

281
00:15:52,539 --> 00:15:55,299
he's just telling me earlier that
day, he would never break my heart.

282
00:15:55,929 --> 00:15:58,179
And then I dismiss it
and said, okay, whatever.

283
00:15:58,629 --> 00:15:59,499
This didn't work out.

284
00:15:59,499 --> 00:16:00,399
I'm just gonna move on.

285
00:16:01,239 --> 00:16:02,669
And then the next day he.

286
00:16:02,819 --> 00:16:07,049
I was messaging me and he later,
it was the next night and he

287
00:16:07,049 --> 00:16:09,149
just said, I still want you.

288
00:16:09,149 --> 00:16:10,109
I'm really sorry.

289
00:16:10,109 --> 00:16:12,599
I just, my emotions got the best of me.

290
00:16:12,599 --> 00:16:17,529
And I know now that you are the
one for me in this lifetime.

291
00:16:17,799 --> 00:16:22,779
And so I remember feeling hesitant
'cause I was like, are you gonna pull

292
00:16:22,779 --> 00:16:24,699
this every time you get stressed out?

293
00:16:24,699 --> 00:16:26,659
And he's you have a right to be leery.

294
00:16:27,289 --> 00:16:30,394
And I, he called and I was, he was crying.

295
00:16:30,394 --> 00:16:32,704
I, and I was really touched,
but I still hit my guard up.

296
00:16:32,704 --> 00:16:36,199
And then the next day it was one
of those, man, I told him I needed

297
00:16:36,199 --> 00:16:38,839
space for a couple days, but the next
day I'm like, I don't want space.

298
00:16:38,839 --> 00:16:42,809
I was just, the fact that he was
so vulner vulnerable with those

299
00:16:42,809 --> 00:16:45,209
emotions, it just got me in.

300
00:16:45,779 --> 00:16:49,259
And so from there on, it
just progressed quickly.

301
00:16:49,889 --> 00:16:53,359
And I had said, I said, that
week I had completely fallen.

302
00:16:55,319 --> 00:17:00,509
we continued, so we talked maybe twice a
day and just texted throughout the day.

303
00:17:01,379 --> 00:17:05,879
And then this is maybe early November.

304
00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:09,344
and then I guess to, it would
be towards late November.

305
00:17:09,344 --> 00:17:14,874
He said that he told me that he had
completed a project over in Qatar.

306
00:17:15,849 --> 00:17:19,289
About two years prior, but that he
had to get, they, him and the workers

307
00:17:19,289 --> 00:17:23,459
had to get out quickly because it
was COVID and never got paid for it.

308
00:17:23,849 --> 00:17:27,029
So he had been trying to reach out
to the board of directors for the

309
00:17:27,029 --> 00:17:32,099
last year to get this payout, and
they finally reached out to him

310
00:17:32,249 --> 00:17:34,109
and wanted to discuss it with him.

311
00:17:35,234 --> 00:17:39,644
And eventually told him that they want
to give him this payout, but he had

312
00:17:39,644 --> 00:17:41,924
to go over to Qatar to get the funds.

313
00:17:42,674 --> 00:17:46,874
And at this point we had
planned on meeting in December.

314
00:17:47,034 --> 00:17:50,754
I was supposed to go to LA to see
a friend and he was in San Diego,

315
00:17:50,754 --> 00:17:54,474
so we were gonna meet up a couple
days before and fly back together.

316
00:17:54,984 --> 00:17:58,164
And then when this happened, I said,
is this gonna delay your return?

317
00:17:58,164 --> 00:18:01,234
And he said, no, I'll still
be coming home, to you.

318
00:18:01,234 --> 00:18:02,564
And at this point we're talking about.

319
00:18:03,344 --> 00:18:04,304
we're talking engagement.

320
00:18:04,304 --> 00:18:07,784
We were, I was looking at houses,
sending him pictures of listings,

321
00:18:07,814 --> 00:18:09,014
pictures of engagement rings.

322
00:18:09,014 --> 00:18:14,034
So he was gonna move to me and he
said, I'll be back, mid-December.

323
00:18:14,034 --> 00:18:16,614
And then he was gonna pick me up
from the airport the following

324
00:18:16,614 --> 00:18:19,344
day when I came back from la and.

325
00:18:20,424 --> 00:18:25,704
So around the week of Thanksgiving,
he flew to Qatar and he had

326
00:18:25,704 --> 00:18:27,474
to get documentation together.

327
00:18:27,474 --> 00:18:32,004
So he needed it, he needed a lawyer,
and then he needed a translator

328
00:18:32,394 --> 00:18:35,394
to help, with the, his meeting
with the board of directors.

329
00:18:36,144 --> 00:18:39,144
And he was sending me like payment
receipts, like just showing me,

330
00:18:39,144 --> 00:18:42,984
I just I felt like he was being
transparent with me as his partner

331
00:18:42,984 --> 00:18:45,354
and showing me these, payments.

332
00:18:45,354 --> 00:18:47,429
He was, and he was gaining
my trust at the same time.

333
00:18:49,224 --> 00:18:53,844
Then one day he couldn't log into
his bank account and he asked if I

334
00:18:53,844 --> 00:18:56,064
could try, and I said, yeah, sure.

335
00:18:56,454 --> 00:19:00,384
So he sent me the login and the
password, and once I got in,

336
00:19:00,384 --> 00:19:01,884
he, I saw that he had money.

337
00:19:01,884 --> 00:19:04,744
He had, like seven, $800,000.

338
00:19:05,449 --> 00:19:09,199
And he asked, he, he walked me
through transferring the money

339
00:19:09,499 --> 00:19:11,539
and then it was a success.

340
00:19:11,599 --> 00:19:16,309
And I, and this is the part where
he's like gaining my trust and I

341
00:19:16,309 --> 00:19:18,359
just remember feeling oh my God.

342
00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,999
I remember saying, I, like I
said, I've just fallen deeper in

343
00:19:20,999 --> 00:19:23,189
love with you because I just feel
like we're such a great team.

344
00:19:24,059 --> 00:19:27,839
And then the next day comes, he
has to make another payment to the

345
00:19:27,839 --> 00:19:32,039
translator, and he asked, he still
couldn't get in and asked me to try.

346
00:19:32,789 --> 00:19:34,829
And I couldn't get in His account.

347
00:19:34,949 --> 00:19:38,369
Account was frozen due
to suspicious activity.

348
00:19:39,029 --> 00:19:42,689
So he said that day he had to work
with his account manager to see what

349
00:19:42,689 --> 00:19:46,979
he could do, and he ended up telling
me that he couldn't get in, that he

350
00:19:46,979 --> 00:19:51,449
would have to go to the main branch
in England for facial verification.

351
00:19:51,899 --> 00:19:55,409
And he had to have this meeting
in, I think it was a couple days

352
00:19:55,409 --> 00:19:57,449
away with the board of directors.

353
00:19:57,449 --> 00:20:01,079
And so he was really upset because
he didn't have the translator

354
00:20:01,079 --> 00:20:02,189
and he just thought it was.

355
00:20:02,279 --> 00:20:04,319
It's gonna be really unprofessional.

356
00:20:05,069 --> 00:20:08,809
And I, he basically said, he never
asked me directly for money, but

357
00:20:08,809 --> 00:20:10,549
he said he has to raise the money.

358
00:20:11,299 --> 00:20:13,969
And I remember thinking, man,
if he asked me for money, I'm

359
00:20:13,969 --> 00:20:15,469
gonna feel really uncomfortable.

360
00:20:15,519 --> 00:20:19,529
and because he didn't ask, I said, I
would go to my financial advisor, but

361
00:20:19,619 --> 00:20:20,969
I can't get money out in two days.

362
00:20:20,969 --> 00:20:22,409
It takes seven to 10 days.

363
00:20:23,069 --> 00:20:24,504
And he is, and he even
said to me, he's like.

364
00:20:25,109 --> 00:20:26,879
Wait a minute, and he said, slow down.

365
00:20:26,879 --> 00:20:29,939
I've asked a friend, it was
like he didn't wanna burden me.

366
00:20:30,809 --> 00:20:31,949
And I'm like, okay.

367
00:20:32,339 --> 00:20:35,849
so the next day or two, he hadn't
heard back from his friend,

368
00:20:35,849 --> 00:20:37,529
and I just remember thinking.

369
00:20:38,369 --> 00:20:42,149
I've gotta do something like I, he
worked so hard for this, what can I do?

370
00:20:42,149 --> 00:20:45,029
And then it occurred to me I could
probably take out some loans.

371
00:20:46,079 --> 00:20:55,889
So I went to my bank and this he owed,
he needed $21,000, so I got a $15,000

372
00:20:55,889 --> 00:20:58,379
loan and then a $5,000 cash advance.

373
00:20:59,069 --> 00:21:01,979
And then I had a thousand of my
own money, so I said, what is the

374
00:21:01,979 --> 00:21:03,959
best way for me to get this to you?

375
00:21:03,959 --> 00:21:07,909
And he said, Bitcoin atm, it's
quick, I'll get it immediately.

376
00:21:08,689 --> 00:21:13,429
And so then I spent the next
four days sending him money in,

377
00:21:13,519 --> 00:21:15,599
in, in different Bitcoin ATMs.

378
00:21:16,189 --> 00:21:20,479
And then there was the matter
of the Bitcoin ATM fees.

379
00:21:21,529 --> 00:21:24,049
So those were probably at least 4,000.

380
00:21:24,049 --> 00:21:28,909
So I just, I got a loan from a different
bank for $5,000 and got that money to him.

381
00:21:29,389 --> 00:21:33,379
And then, so his meeting had been
rescheduled for that the next

382
00:21:33,379 --> 00:21:38,384
Friday, and it was a success and I
was really excited and that was the

383
00:21:38,384 --> 00:21:40,184
day I left for LA to see my friend.

384
00:21:40,184 --> 00:21:43,184
And so we were supposed to meet in
a week and he is I have a meeting

385
00:21:43,184 --> 00:21:44,744
with the financier on Monday.

386
00:21:45,584 --> 00:21:47,174
And we'll see how it goes.

387
00:21:47,954 --> 00:21:52,214
So once he had the meeting, he said
again, the meeting was a success.

388
00:21:52,214 --> 00:21:56,734
And, but he had to, he said,
I'm, the deal was I have to do

389
00:21:56,734 --> 00:21:57,994
an inspection on the property.

390
00:21:57,994 --> 00:22:00,634
And that point I knew there was a delay.

391
00:22:00,634 --> 00:22:01,774
He wasn't gonna make it home.

392
00:22:02,719 --> 00:22:07,779
So he said he would try, but then, I
guess fast forward to a week later,

393
00:22:08,079 --> 00:22:13,299
he said, let me see if I can handle
the inspection and maybe you as my

394
00:22:13,299 --> 00:22:16,539
next of kin can handle the payout.

395
00:22:16,989 --> 00:22:17,799
And I said, okay.

396
00:22:18,429 --> 00:22:23,569
And so he sends me a beneficiary
form to fill out as is next of kin.

397
00:22:25,219 --> 00:22:29,199
So I did that and then he is he
was asking me, what do you think?

398
00:22:29,199 --> 00:22:32,109
Should we do a bank check or
should we do this through crypto?

399
00:22:32,529 --> 00:22:36,849
he said A bank check is gonna
be costly and the crypto's

400
00:22:36,849 --> 00:22:38,169
quicker, but what do you think?

401
00:22:38,319 --> 00:22:41,349
And I said, I guess we should go with
crypto since it's gonna be faster.

402
00:22:42,879 --> 00:22:47,059
So he sent me, a link
to the crypto platform.

403
00:22:47,704 --> 00:22:52,264
He said, create an account and then
we'll reach out to customer service.

404
00:22:52,354 --> 00:22:58,474
And he drafted an email and customer
service got back to me and said,

405
00:22:58,504 --> 00:23:03,574
okay, we're assigning you an account
manager, contact him through WhatsApp.

406
00:23:03,874 --> 00:23:11,014
So I did all that and they, the account
manager needed to verify, my account.

407
00:23:11,164 --> 00:23:14,134
And then he said, send me
the beneficiary form and your

408
00:23:14,134 --> 00:23:15,754
driver's license, which I did.

409
00:23:16,384 --> 00:23:21,574
He said, okay, the money should be in
your account within 24 to 48 hours.

410
00:23:21,634 --> 00:23:26,704
So 48 hours later, I checked the
account, it's there, and I said

411
00:23:26,704 --> 00:23:28,504
to him, how do we transfer this?

412
00:23:28,504 --> 00:23:32,104
Like how do I convert this to
cash and transfer it to my bank?

413
00:23:32,104 --> 00:23:33,214
And he's I'll walk you through that.

414
00:23:34,249 --> 00:23:39,499
So as we're doing this is all through
texting, and he said, first of all,

415
00:23:39,499 --> 00:23:43,039
in order to transfer the money,
there's a $50,000 activation fee.

416
00:23:43,039 --> 00:23:44,269
And I'm like, what?

417
00:23:44,869 --> 00:23:46,159
I are you kidding me?

418
00:23:46,534 --> 00:23:48,064
I, I never heard of that.

419
00:23:48,124 --> 00:23:54,269
And I didn't question him, but I just went
along and I still wasn't thinking scam.

420
00:23:54,309 --> 00:23:57,759
I thought that he was maybe
being scammed by this company.

421
00:23:57,759 --> 00:23:59,499
they were pulling the wool over his eyes.

422
00:24:00,114 --> 00:24:03,854
so in the meantime, I am going
back and forth with the scammer

423
00:24:03,854 --> 00:24:07,814
and this account manager and
telling him what was being said.

424
00:24:08,414 --> 00:24:11,894
And I said, can you take
it out of the payout?

425
00:24:11,919 --> 00:24:15,159
and this payout, by the
way, is like $10.1 million.

426
00:24:15,219 --> 00:24:20,409
And he, yeah, for this like whole project
that he did, he had to pay some of his,

427
00:24:20,459 --> 00:24:23,039
contractors, but we would have $5 million.

428
00:24:23,669 --> 00:24:28,909
And so he, The account manager said,
no, you have to pay it up front.

429
00:24:28,909 --> 00:24:30,859
It's a bond payment,
but you'll get it back.

430
00:24:30,859 --> 00:24:36,529
And so I thought at that point I'm
like, $26,000 I, if something goes

431
00:24:36,529 --> 00:24:38,569
wrong, I said I could live with that.

432
00:24:39,214 --> 00:24:41,554
I have money I in my
retirement to pay that off.

433
00:24:41,554 --> 00:24:43,594
But this is a little scary.

434
00:24:44,404 --> 00:24:48,764
But I reluctantly said that I'll go
to my financial advisor and see what I

435
00:24:48,764 --> 00:24:50,414
can do, but it's gonna take some time.

436
00:24:50,624 --> 00:24:53,734
So I get on the phone with my
financial advisor and we have a

437
00:24:53,734 --> 00:24:55,354
really good professional relationship.

438
00:24:55,354 --> 00:24:57,834
So I think at that point I was just.

439
00:24:58,224 --> 00:25:02,964
Felt so isolated and so frustrated
that I just told him the whole story.

440
00:25:03,054 --> 00:25:05,724
I just had that little voice that
said, tell him what's going on.

441
00:25:06,474 --> 00:25:10,524
And so I did, and then he and
his team are trained in romance

442
00:25:10,524 --> 00:25:13,914
fraud, so he said, I Beth, I hate
to be the one to tell you this.

443
00:25:13,914 --> 00:25:15,204
I think you're in a romance scam.

444
00:25:15,864 --> 00:25:20,219
I just remember thinking what I
said, no, he never asked for money.

445
00:25:20,219 --> 00:25:22,199
He kept saying, this is
classic romance fraud.

446
00:25:22,199 --> 00:25:23,789
And I'm like, he never
asked me for the money.

447
00:25:23,789 --> 00:25:25,409
How is this classic romance fraud?

448
00:25:25,409 --> 00:25:26,309
I don't understand.

449
00:25:26,909 --> 00:25:30,479
So he kept me on the phone for an hour
and I was willing to listen because it

450
00:25:30,479 --> 00:25:33,099
was like, I couldn't believe it, but
I couldn't ignore it at this point.

451
00:25:33,099 --> 00:25:35,939
'cause like I said, the
$50,000 is a lot more money.

452
00:25:36,809 --> 00:25:39,779
And he sent me some
articles, which I read and.

453
00:25:40,184 --> 00:25:44,894
I was like, wow, to really explain
a lot, my heart still wasn't believ

454
00:25:44,894 --> 00:25:46,424
it, but my head was questioning it.

455
00:25:47,084 --> 00:25:52,109
So I, I said to him, I. I'm
not ready to cut it off.

456
00:25:52,109 --> 00:25:54,569
I, it didn't change the
love I felt for this man.

457
00:25:54,659 --> 00:25:59,179
And he's tell him that I'm out of town for
a couple weeks and you can't get the money

458
00:25:59,179 --> 00:26:01,229
until you sign, a funds release form.

459
00:26:01,229 --> 00:26:02,549
I'm like, okay, that'll stall.

460
00:26:02,549 --> 00:26:04,749
And he's that'll give you some
time to figure out what's going

461
00:26:04,749 --> 00:26:05,979
on, wrap your head around it.

462
00:26:06,699 --> 00:26:08,049
And so that's what I did.

463
00:26:08,049 --> 00:26:12,209
I kept, and I kept him, I
kept him going for a week.

464
00:26:12,239 --> 00:26:15,709
I was sending all the love
messages and poems and.

465
00:26:16,309 --> 00:26:20,179
So as far as he knew I was
still gonna send him $50,000.

466
00:26:20,839 --> 00:26:23,299
And then about a week later
it was starting to get really

467
00:26:23,299 --> 00:26:25,069
difficult to keep up the facade.

468
00:26:25,069 --> 00:26:29,089
So I, I thought, and I told everybody,
I, I had already done a police report.

469
00:26:29,089 --> 00:26:32,779
I told my friends, my family,
and I was visiting my family.

470
00:26:32,829 --> 00:26:35,199
this was late December and.

471
00:26:36,054 --> 00:26:40,104
He said, why don't you cut him off here
while your family is here to support you?

472
00:26:40,194 --> 00:26:41,754
I'm like, yeah, that's
probably a good idea.

473
00:26:41,754 --> 00:26:43,494
So he's I would just block him.

474
00:26:43,494 --> 00:26:44,214
And I'm like, no.

475
00:26:44,214 --> 00:26:45,564
He has to know that I know.

476
00:26:45,564 --> 00:26:49,764
So my cousin wrote this
like really clever poem.

477
00:26:50,619 --> 00:26:51,969
Basically telling him to F off.

478
00:26:52,929 --> 00:26:55,179
And so I sent it to him and it was great.

479
00:26:55,179 --> 00:26:59,289
it was brilliant, and I sent it
to him and then I blocked him.

480
00:26:59,289 --> 00:27:02,979
But I started questioning,
what if I broke his heart?

481
00:27:03,759 --> 00:27:04,779
What if he's real?

482
00:27:05,574 --> 00:27:07,224
So the next day, of course, what do I do?

483
00:27:07,224 --> 00:27:11,084
I check my spam and sure enough,
there's a message from him saying,

484
00:27:11,324 --> 00:27:12,794
how could you think this of me?

485
00:27:12,794 --> 00:27:15,404
I, I don't understand what got into you.

486
00:27:15,404 --> 00:27:17,164
And he always used my fear against me.

487
00:27:17,214 --> 00:27:21,204
he said, are you just, are you gonna
forever push away any man who loves you?

488
00:27:21,204 --> 00:27:23,274
And just this ridiculous stuff.

489
00:27:23,324 --> 00:27:26,744
I'll just keep loving you until
the specs in your mind clear.

490
00:27:26,744 --> 00:27:28,124
And that really got me at the time.

491
00:27:28,124 --> 00:27:32,054
Now when I look at that, I laugh,
but I, so I got back in touch.

492
00:27:32,054 --> 00:27:32,384
I'm like.

493
00:27:32,729 --> 00:27:35,639
I told my friend, I said, I'm not
gonna send any more money, but I

494
00:27:35,639 --> 00:27:37,349
have to know I have to play this out.

495
00:27:37,349 --> 00:27:38,009
And she's okay.

496
00:27:38,039 --> 00:27:40,619
So somebody at least knew
so I can be accountable.

497
00:27:41,369 --> 00:27:46,019
So I get back in touch, and this
was only for a couple of days and.

498
00:27:47,369 --> 00:27:51,629
I just, I started seeing through
him, he was just gaslighting me.

499
00:27:51,629 --> 00:27:55,379
He would tell me that he, I love,
he would say, I love you and I can't

500
00:27:55,379 --> 00:27:58,289
stop loving you, but you broke me.

501
00:27:58,289 --> 00:27:59,519
How could you do this?

502
00:27:59,519 --> 00:28:04,199
And don't ever hurt me again, but
I still love you and I forgive you.

503
00:28:04,249 --> 00:28:06,439
and it just started feeling really toxic.

504
00:28:06,439 --> 00:28:06,919
And then.

505
00:28:07,489 --> 00:28:11,239
Then he said, what if I had taken my
own life and that was the last straw?

506
00:28:11,239 --> 00:28:15,259
I'm like, I don't, even if you're
real, even if you are real, I

507
00:28:15,259 --> 00:28:17,599
don't want a relationship with
someone who's threatening suicide.

508
00:28:17,599 --> 00:28:21,979
I had enough self-awareness at that
point, and I had an, I was grounded

509
00:28:21,979 --> 00:28:23,839
enough to say, I don't want that.

510
00:28:23,839 --> 00:28:25,249
I don't care how much I love you.

511
00:28:25,999 --> 00:28:32,279
And so then I sent him, another, like a
long message confronting him on every.

512
00:28:33,059 --> 00:28:36,269
Everything that, that he did
and why it was a scam and

513
00:28:36,269 --> 00:28:37,739
he never answered any of it.

514
00:28:38,189 --> 00:28:44,709
And so he came back with one last dish
effort and said, I, I don't think anything

515
00:28:44,709 --> 00:28:47,229
I do or say will matter until I'm home.

516
00:28:47,229 --> 00:28:50,289
And he was telling me that
the lie is the fear in my mind

517
00:28:50,289 --> 00:28:51,759
and everything it's creating.

518
00:28:51,759 --> 00:28:55,149
And I'm gonna get sick mentally and
emotionally if I keep believing this.

519
00:28:55,149 --> 00:28:58,279
And I confronted him on
how he would isolate me.

520
00:28:58,279 --> 00:29:00,649
He goes, I'm not isolating
you when I'm protecting you.

521
00:29:01,344 --> 00:29:03,024
And all, what do you say?

522
00:29:03,024 --> 00:29:05,244
At the end of the day,
all you have is yourself.

523
00:29:05,244 --> 00:29:06,654
And I'm like, that's not true.

524
00:29:07,464 --> 00:29:09,894
So I just, my last message
was, I don't trust you.

525
00:29:09,894 --> 00:29:10,524
I don't believe you.

526
00:29:10,524 --> 00:29:13,574
I don't wanna talk to you, but if
you're real, bring me my money.

527
00:29:13,604 --> 00:29:14,564
Prove me wrong.

528
00:29:14,624 --> 00:29:15,524
Maybe we'll talk.

529
00:29:15,524 --> 00:29:17,084
And then I never heard from him again.

530
00:29:18,284 --> 00:29:23,624
So it was a very long, convoluted,
crazy sophisticated scam.

531
00:29:25,244 --> 00:29:25,364
Yeah.

532
00:29:25,784 --> 00:29:28,694
Thank God for your financial
manager being trained in this.

533
00:29:28,699 --> 00:29:28,934
Yeah.

534
00:29:30,039 --> 00:29:33,574
I wrote a book, I wrote and published
all the chats and I dedicated,

535
00:29:34,144 --> 00:29:38,974
he's in my dedication part of
it, so yeah, he's my godsend.

536
00:29:40,354 --> 00:29:40,654
Yeah.

537
00:29:41,074 --> 00:29:42,364
This happened to a friend of mine.

538
00:29:42,424 --> 00:29:46,149
It's, and I think part of the thing that
I, and I'm not gonna project on you,

539
00:29:46,189 --> 00:29:50,064
but part of the thing I think I hear
people go through is, guilt that I fell

540
00:29:50,064 --> 00:29:51,144
for this and all that sort of stuff.

541
00:29:51,534 --> 00:29:53,154
And in reality it's so common.

542
00:29:53,319 --> 00:29:56,899
and like I said, a friend of mine,
a friend of my wife and I, phoned me

543
00:29:56,899 --> 00:29:59,659
and said the same thing, that you'd
met this person and all this stuff.

544
00:29:59,929 --> 00:30:01,099
I'm a cybersecurity guy.

545
00:30:01,879 --> 00:30:03,799
Right away said this.

546
00:30:05,509 --> 00:30:06,049
Why?

547
00:30:06,329 --> 00:30:09,539
because I, this, I get all this research.

548
00:30:09,539 --> 00:30:11,279
This is, there's something wrong here.

549
00:30:11,759 --> 00:30:13,679
And I didn't think she was
gonna talk to me again.

550
00:30:15,079 --> 00:30:18,529
It was, and, but eventually,
I guess it worked.

551
00:30:18,529 --> 00:30:24,169
And what would you advise people to
do when having had that perspective?

552
00:30:24,379 --> 00:30:28,279
How can people be helpful
in these situations?

553
00:30:29,944 --> 00:30:37,804
I think even if you, romance scams are
tricky because victims are manipulated

554
00:30:37,804 --> 00:30:42,394
into trusting only them, and if you try to
push them, they're just gonna push back.

555
00:30:42,394 --> 00:30:42,664
I think.

556
00:30:43,984 --> 00:30:49,914
Maybe somehow subtly bringing it
up or, somehow it's a tough one.

557
00:30:49,914 --> 00:30:52,494
Like just listen to them
'cause they're not gonna wanna

558
00:30:52,494 --> 00:30:53,724
believe it until they're ready.

559
00:30:54,424 --> 00:30:56,614
because they're, the
sophistication is real.

560
00:30:56,614 --> 00:31:02,394
He sent me documents and I. Like a,
he sent me a flight itinerary and

561
00:31:02,604 --> 00:31:04,644
the return location wasn't here.

562
00:31:05,124 --> 00:31:08,334
And now, now I know there's
the scam detection software.

563
00:31:08,784 --> 00:31:13,554
And I remember I put a docu, I tested it
out, I put a document in there because

564
00:31:13,554 --> 00:31:15,834
there were typos and I did question.

565
00:31:15,834 --> 00:31:18,954
I'm like, I, it's a different
country, so maybe that's why.

566
00:31:19,464 --> 00:31:24,724
But it did bring up, it did say it
was a scam and I might have at least.

567
00:31:24,779 --> 00:31:26,069
I thought twice.

568
00:31:26,069 --> 00:31:30,069
and now that's out there, I think
that's a great tool to help victims.

569
00:31:30,189 --> 00:31:33,039
even if you still can't quite
believe it, it's something, it

570
00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:36,429
might trigger something, it might
get them out of the scam sooner.

571
00:31:37,239 --> 00:31:41,029
So I think having these tools
are critical, but also people

572
00:31:41,029 --> 00:31:45,709
that can just listen and create a
safe space for victims to share.

573
00:31:47,029 --> 00:31:47,179
Yeah.

574
00:31:48,679 --> 00:31:53,469
And what would you advise Anybody who was
caught up in something like this or felt

575
00:31:53,469 --> 00:31:56,259
that they were, but didn't wanna push.

576
00:31:57,759 --> 00:32:00,989
we, there is this thing about we
don't wanna push people out of our

577
00:32:00,989 --> 00:32:02,489
lives who we could fall in love with.

578
00:32:02,819 --> 00:32:07,924
And if we only fell in love with perfect
people, my wife would've never married me.

579
00:32:08,544 --> 00:32:08,964
For sure.

580
00:32:10,874 --> 00:32:12,084
Everybody's in the.

581
00:32:16,559 --> 00:32:21,219
How did, how do you, what would you
tell somebody based on what you'd

582
00:32:21,219 --> 00:32:27,119
learned that would help them, at least
get past that idea of the suspicion?

583
00:32:29,159 --> 00:32:31,439
You mean if they were
questioning it and Yeah.

584
00:32:31,439 --> 00:32:33,149
But didn't want to get out it?

585
00:32:34,539 --> 00:32:36,299
I would say, when you
start the question, Yeah.

586
00:32:36,304 --> 00:32:37,804
what would you do differently now?

587
00:32:37,804 --> 00:32:39,199
I guess if I'm saying.

588
00:32:41,209 --> 00:32:43,519
I would've listened a little,
I would've listened to that

589
00:32:43,519 --> 00:32:44,899
intuition a little closer.

590
00:32:44,949 --> 00:32:47,869
even though that part of
the brain is hijacked.

591
00:32:48,109 --> 00:32:48,799
You know what I mean?

592
00:32:48,799 --> 00:32:54,369
It's, I would've looked more carefully,
talk, if you don't feel comfortable with a

593
00:32:54,369 --> 00:33:01,469
friend or family, because there's a lot of
stigma around it, reach out to, Or there's

594
00:33:01,469 --> 00:33:05,869
other groups like white cybercrime.org
that, talk to someone that's experienced

595
00:33:05,869 --> 00:33:08,329
in this that's biased and won't judge.

596
00:33:08,929 --> 00:33:14,599
that, again, if you someone that feels
safe, I, and does that make sense?

597
00:33:15,054 --> 00:33:17,074
No, that makes perfect, that
makes absolute perfect sense.

598
00:33:17,074 --> 00:33:17,274
Okay.

599
00:33:17,724 --> 00:33:19,559
you said you'd written a book about this?

600
00:33:20,189 --> 00:33:20,579
Yes.

601
00:33:20,579 --> 00:33:20,669
Yes.

602
00:33:21,719 --> 00:33:22,789
But what's the book called?

603
00:33:23,254 --> 00:33:27,094
. My book is called Diary of a Romance
Scam When Swiping Right Goes Wrong.

604
00:33:28,219 --> 00:33:34,579
And I guess where that came from is
my situation's unique in that when it

605
00:33:34,639 --> 00:33:39,379
all ended, even before I cut 'em off,
I made a decision, like a very quick

606
00:33:39,379 --> 00:33:41,389
decision to not let it destroy me.

607
00:33:41,849 --> 00:33:45,899
I was going to, I knew I had to go
through the pain, I had to experience it.

608
00:33:45,899 --> 00:33:47,159
I'm no stranger to grief.

609
00:33:47,189 --> 00:33:48,209
I know the process.

610
00:33:48,209 --> 00:33:49,529
I know it has to come out.

611
00:33:49,529 --> 00:33:50,699
I know it has to be dealt with.

612
00:33:51,299 --> 00:33:54,419
At the same time, I said, I'm gonna get
out there and I'm gonna win my life.

613
00:33:57,134 --> 00:33:58,484
And write a book.

614
00:33:58,514 --> 00:34:02,824
And sometimes, we say that it's
just, it ends up being just talk.

615
00:34:02,824 --> 00:34:07,054
But I just, a few months after the
scam ended, I just started writing

616
00:34:07,054 --> 00:34:09,564
and I didn't know what I was gonna
write at first, so I thought, why

617
00:34:09,564 --> 00:34:11,424
don't I publish all the text messages?

618
00:34:11,424 --> 00:34:14,834
So I started just writing and
copying and pasting messages,

619
00:34:15,374 --> 00:34:16,339
and I wanted to write about.

620
00:34:17,399 --> 00:34:24,819
Not just my story, but the red flags and
resources and I think an important chapter

621
00:34:24,819 --> 00:34:30,489
that I have in there is about what it was
like to grieve a romance scam, because

622
00:34:30,489 --> 00:34:32,124
it's very different when it's somebody.

623
00:34:33,414 --> 00:34:34,914
That's not even that person.

624
00:34:34,914 --> 00:34:38,514
Like they've stolen a profile
and they're not even that person.

625
00:34:38,874 --> 00:34:40,764
And so you're grieving
two different aspects.

626
00:34:40,764 --> 00:34:45,404
You're grieving this person that never
was, but also, and it's messy because it's

627
00:34:45,404 --> 00:34:47,234
like there's still love for this person.

628
00:34:47,234 --> 00:34:50,114
Even though that they're a
scammer, the heart doesn't care.

629
00:34:50,184 --> 00:34:51,384
the mind knows, but the heart.

630
00:34:51,684 --> 00:34:52,524
Not rational.

631
00:34:53,064 --> 00:34:56,504
And so I just wanted to try
to convey that to victims.

632
00:34:57,074 --> 00:35:01,104
And and I started an LLC called
a voice for unrequited law.

633
00:35:01,134 --> 00:35:05,664
My hope is to speak at venues and to
share and educate, like with my story.

634
00:35:05,664 --> 00:35:09,209
And, so it's just this whole
thing's taken on a life of its own.

635
00:35:09,264 --> 00:35:14,334
So I decided to survive and so
I could help other people 'cause

636
00:35:14,694 --> 00:35:16,764
not everybody comes through.

637
00:35:19,829 --> 00:35:20,954
I don't know how to say it.

638
00:35:21,179 --> 00:35:25,079
It really does shatter a lot of
people, more so emotionally than

639
00:35:25,079 --> 00:35:28,739
financially, and they don't know
how, they don't know where to go.

640
00:35:28,789 --> 00:35:33,409
they feel shame, and I, it just,
this should not happen to anybody.

641
00:35:33,409 --> 00:35:36,199
we all have loss in our lives,
but this isn't something that

642
00:35:36,379 --> 00:35:37,759
people should have to deal with.

643
00:35:39,979 --> 00:35:40,459
Yeah.

644
00:35:40,819 --> 00:35:43,189
There's a friend of mine who's
a songwriter I guess he said it

645
00:35:43,189 --> 00:35:46,149
more poetically, but it was that,
and it's the same thing when

646
00:35:46,149 --> 00:35:48,939
your heart gets betrayed, it's.

647
00:35:51,519 --> 00:35:53,949
There's twice the loss, I
guess is what I'm saying.

648
00:35:54,004 --> 00:35:54,144
yeah.

649
00:35:54,184 --> 00:35:55,894
it's just, it takes longer.

650
00:35:56,644 --> 00:36:00,484
the, one of, some of the things I
really advocate for, it's, this one's

651
00:36:00,484 --> 00:36:05,264
an important one that I tell podcasters,
I tell, journalists is changing

652
00:36:05,264 --> 00:36:09,694
the language that we use because I
think that changes the, the focus.

653
00:36:10,549 --> 00:36:12,979
It takes the focus off the victim
and puts it on the criminal.

654
00:36:12,979 --> 00:36:19,009
And the fact that so much of the
language says we fall for scams, we

655
00:36:19,009 --> 00:36:24,319
fall victim to them, but really we are
targeted and manipulated into them.

656
00:36:25,069 --> 00:36:28,629
And then the fact, It's always stated
that we lose money, but we, it's

657
00:36:28,629 --> 00:36:31,029
really stolen through coercive control.

658
00:36:31,159 --> 00:36:36,259
it's, to me, it's no different than having
a gun held to your head and an TM and

659
00:36:36,259 --> 00:36:37,549
someone saying, gimme all your money.

660
00:36:37,549 --> 00:36:40,849
It's just that the gun is the
love bombing and it's subtle.

661
00:36:40,849 --> 00:36:43,669
It's disguised on the romance
and it's takes a lot longer.

662
00:36:43,669 --> 00:36:46,069
So that's, those are like big things.

663
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:52,129
People on because I think
from the language and people

664
00:36:52,129 --> 00:36:53,329
don't, are not intentional.

665
00:36:53,329 --> 00:36:54,889
Most people are not intentional with that.

666
00:36:59,884 --> 00:37:02,824
It is rampant though.

667
00:37:02,834 --> 00:37:06,104
I think that's an actually great
thing to think about is how we can

668
00:37:06,104 --> 00:37:07,654
change that language and, yeah.

669
00:37:08,584 --> 00:37:08,914
Yeah.

670
00:37:08,974 --> 00:37:09,784
And what would you do?

671
00:37:09,844 --> 00:37:13,764
What would you, just for your suggestions,
what would you say if you were asking

672
00:37:13,764 --> 00:37:15,264
people to reshape their language?

673
00:37:15,504 --> 00:37:18,924
This is a really good idea, I just wanna
pursue this for a second, but how would

674
00:37:18,924 --> 00:37:22,484
you reshape the language, or how would
you reshape the way we talk about it?

675
00:37:23,984 --> 00:37:30,734
I would say language matters more
than you know, because when the.

676
00:37:31,184 --> 00:37:35,504
We say that victims are, that
people fall victim to a scam.

677
00:37:35,504 --> 00:37:39,704
It sounds like it's their
fault that they fell for it.

678
00:37:39,914 --> 00:37:42,044
They're the quote unquote stupid ones.

679
00:37:42,074 --> 00:37:43,304
'cause that's what people call us.

680
00:37:43,304 --> 00:37:47,154
They think we're stupid and that
we just fall for this, this scam.

681
00:37:47,154 --> 00:37:49,044
We fall in love and we're desperate.

682
00:37:49,584 --> 00:37:54,734
And so I think saying falling
victim highlights that and

683
00:37:54,734 --> 00:37:56,054
people don't realize it.

684
00:37:56,759 --> 00:38:01,379
And then by saying that we either
that we give money to scammers,

685
00:38:01,379 --> 00:38:02,369
especially in romance scams.

686
00:38:02,399 --> 00:38:08,219
We, we do, it does look like we give
it freely, but it's really outta it's,

687
00:38:08,549 --> 00:38:17,099
we are manipulated and so we, in that
sense, we're giving, we don't consent

688
00:38:17,099 --> 00:38:20,589
to giving money to someone that.

689
00:38:21,164 --> 00:38:22,754
Isn't who they say they are.

690
00:38:22,874 --> 00:38:25,889
We can send it to giving it to the person
we thought was the love of our life.

691
00:38:25,949 --> 00:38:31,319
So in that sense, it is stolen and it's
not like we lost the money in taxes.

692
00:38:31,679 --> 00:38:32,309
You know what I mean?

693
00:38:32,399 --> 00:38:33,629
We misplaced it.

694
00:38:34,024 --> 00:38:35,634
it is literally, it's fraud.

695
00:38:35,634 --> 00:38:36,504
It was stolen.

696
00:38:38,004 --> 00:38:38,154
Yeah.

697
00:38:38,154 --> 00:38:42,564
And by people who are
astonishingly good at this know.

698
00:38:42,744 --> 00:38:43,374
and these are.

699
00:38:43,974 --> 00:38:48,564
These are just average people, they are
professionals, , I think that's one of the

700
00:38:48,564 --> 00:38:50,054
things I try to get, try to get across.

701
00:38:50,054 --> 00:38:52,784
And one of the reasons I wanted to do
this show, I want people to feel that,

702
00:38:53,174 --> 00:38:54,524
wait a minute, this can happen to anybody.

703
00:38:54,614 --> 00:38:57,964
I'll just tell you one quick
story was I was, at a conference

704
00:38:57,964 --> 00:38:59,014
and I'm a cybersecurity guy.

705
00:38:59,494 --> 00:39:03,524
I, I got hacked at the conference
by a friend of mine and he nodded

706
00:39:03,524 --> 00:39:06,614
to me from against the room, and it
was, don't get too full yourself.

707
00:39:07,824 --> 00:39:09,679
this can happen to anybody.

708
00:39:10,059 --> 00:39:11,394
It can't happen to anybody.

709
00:39:11,784 --> 00:39:13,944
And it's usually intelligent people.

710
00:39:14,394 --> 00:39:18,714
Because I was reading this the
other day that because we think

711
00:39:18,894 --> 00:39:24,694
like we have this hyper awareness,
we, we'll, I, how to say it?

712
00:39:25,234 --> 00:39:29,404
Delve into the details so we think
we know what to look for and.

713
00:39:29,854 --> 00:39:33,794
When something gets past us, we think, at
the time we're thinking, oh, okay, we did

714
00:39:33,794 --> 00:39:36,164
our due diligence and this must be okay.

715
00:39:37,554 --> 00:39:37,644
yeah.

716
00:39:38,809 --> 00:39:44,354
The, it's easier to, it's easier
to phish at least the cybersecurity

717
00:39:44,354 --> 00:39:46,154
world to phish a smart person.

718
00:39:48,059 --> 00:39:49,709
Yeah, because we think
we know what to look for.

719
00:39:49,739 --> 00:39:53,369
we think we're, but we all have vulnerable
moments where we're, I've had it at work

720
00:39:53,369 --> 00:39:57,819
where we get test, phishing emails, and
if you fail, you have to do training,

721
00:39:58,089 --> 00:39:59,769
and it's happened, it happened to me.

722
00:39:59,769 --> 00:40:03,969
It's it just catches you in an off
moment, a dis you're distracted and

723
00:40:04,449 --> 00:40:09,224
before you know it, it just can happen
again, even when you've been scammed.

724
00:40:10,284 --> 00:40:11,754
It has been a pleasure to meet you.

725
00:40:12,024 --> 00:40:12,689
I'm you too.

726
00:40:12,694 --> 00:40:15,624
I'm sorry for the circumstances
under which that started, but

727
00:40:15,624 --> 00:40:17,584
I am, but I'm so to met you.

728
00:40:17,584 --> 00:40:19,144
Thank you very much for doing this.

729
00:40:20,159 --> 00:40:21,694
Thank you, Jim.

730
00:40:21,694 --> 00:40:22,109
Thanks for having me.

731
00:40:24,109 --> 00:40:25,099
This blew me away.

732
00:40:25,279 --> 00:40:29,639
This woman is incredible, to
be so honest, so forthright.

733
00:40:29,739 --> 00:40:31,599
It's a long and protracted.

734
00:40:32,364 --> 00:40:37,464
And she only escaped a much more
major loss by the skin of her teeth.

735
00:40:37,614 --> 00:40:38,154
There was.

736
00:40:38,214 --> 00:40:41,954
So these things are, but it is
the same psychology, isn't it?

737
00:40:41,954 --> 00:40:44,264
It's the same thing that
we, that drives fishing.

738
00:40:44,624 --> 00:40:48,754
It, they catch a person when
they're vulnerable, ca make, make

739
00:40:48,754 --> 00:40:52,569
them think that you can trust
them and, and proceed from there.

740
00:40:52,569 --> 00:40:57,009
I guess that is there a big
difference with the romance scams.

741
00:40:57,609 --> 00:40:58,359
Besides the time.

742
00:40:58,359 --> 00:41:00,339
So yes, there are differences, right?

743
00:41:00,339 --> 00:41:04,539
So the, at the end of the day,
it's all about social engineering.

744
00:41:04,569 --> 00:41:06,489
And social engineering
comes in many forms.

745
00:41:06,489 --> 00:41:10,629
So you can have, it's about how you
react, whether it's emotionally,

746
00:41:10,629 --> 00:41:14,939
whether it's through anxiety, through
excitement, you have a different,

747
00:41:15,189 --> 00:41:16,869
type of scam that can be put at you.

748
00:41:16,919 --> 00:41:18,449
Let's say it's holiday season, right?

749
00:41:18,659 --> 00:41:19,859
You're getting ready for shopping.

750
00:41:20,244 --> 00:41:24,774
the emotion there is excitement looking
for that deal, trying to find something

751
00:41:24,984 --> 00:41:28,679
that you would not be able to afford
because it is amazing discounted price.

752
00:41:28,889 --> 00:41:32,159
So that is an emotion, a
different type of emotion.

753
00:41:32,579 --> 00:41:36,389
The emotions with romance scams
are slightly different because

754
00:41:36,689 --> 00:41:39,479
yes, there is love involved, right?

755
00:41:39,479 --> 00:41:41,339
There is trust involved and.

756
00:41:41,729 --> 00:41:43,019
That's what they play into.

757
00:41:43,139 --> 00:41:46,619
So it's very normal to see
social engineering scams.

758
00:41:46,829 --> 00:41:50,819
A wide array of emotions that
humans have are basically exploited.

759
00:41:51,119 --> 00:41:55,889
But in romance scams, I think it's
more about, love, trust, building

760
00:41:55,889 --> 00:41:59,044
that emotional connection with
somebody before they hit heart.

761
00:42:00,809 --> 00:42:01,259
Yeah.

762
00:42:01,349 --> 00:42:05,299
And one of the great things about
research is breaking through stereotypes.

763
00:42:05,299 --> 00:42:09,799
And I, so I don't wanna stereotype your
firm, but you're a technology firm.

764
00:42:09,799 --> 00:42:11,239
you deal with cybersecurity.

765
00:42:11,389 --> 00:42:13,249
What brought you into this realm?

766
00:42:14,689 --> 00:42:15,889
That's a really good question.

767
00:42:16,009 --> 00:42:18,559
I think at the heart, the
answer, the heart of that

768
00:42:18,559 --> 00:42:20,299
question is why we do what we do.

769
00:42:20,369 --> 00:42:24,719
And I think there is a bigger why for
us, which is how do we help people?

770
00:42:24,989 --> 00:42:31,349
Keep in mind that McAfee used to be a very
broad enterprise slash consumer company.

771
00:42:31,499 --> 00:42:36,389
More recently, we become very consumer
focused because we, that there is

772
00:42:36,389 --> 00:42:41,639
this huge market where people are
getting scammed and there's not much

773
00:42:41,639 --> 00:42:44,959
focus, In general, when you hear about
security, you hear about infrastructure,

774
00:42:44,959 --> 00:42:49,609
security, security against, the
electricity grid, whatever, everything

775
00:42:49,609 --> 00:42:51,379
related to how we live our lives.

776
00:42:51,619 --> 00:42:55,039
But then those fall more
on the enterprise side.

777
00:42:55,039 --> 00:43:00,919
But in the consumer space, the growth
of scams and how it's impacting people

778
00:43:00,919 --> 00:43:03,229
financially has been going exponentially.

779
00:43:03,689 --> 00:43:08,389
So for last year in the US it was
about 16 billion, and we expect it

780
00:43:08,389 --> 00:43:12,889
to grow even more in the FTC report,
which hasn't come out for 2025,

781
00:43:13,159 --> 00:43:14,659
but we expect it to be much higher.

782
00:43:14,839 --> 00:43:19,699
So the rate at which it's growing
on the consumer space is incredible.

783
00:43:19,879 --> 00:43:23,809
And I think one of the key driving
factors, which is leading this is ai.

784
00:43:24,229 --> 00:43:28,579
The tools that are available are
incredible and at the heart of.

785
00:43:29,004 --> 00:43:30,564
AI life, social engineering.

786
00:43:30,894 --> 00:43:35,574
So it has allowed social engineering
to become much better, right?

787
00:43:35,574 --> 00:43:37,704
More real, more effective.

788
00:43:37,974 --> 00:43:43,284
And therefore you're seeing this
emergence in scams, which these

789
00:43:43,284 --> 00:43:47,814
scammers, where they're utilizing
these tools to make any of these scams,

790
00:43:47,994 --> 00:43:52,404
whether it's romance scams or other
scams, more real and more believable.

791
00:43:52,434 --> 00:43:53,034
And that.

792
00:43:53,629 --> 00:43:56,669
Is what's driving this,
huge increase in scams.

793
00:43:57,149 --> 00:43:58,769
So why does McAfee care?

794
00:43:58,799 --> 00:44:00,959
Yes, we care about protecting people.

795
00:44:01,829 --> 00:44:02,939
In all respects.

796
00:44:03,089 --> 00:44:06,479
Now, there are things that we can't do
because yes, some of them are physicals,

797
00:44:06,749 --> 00:44:09,629
scams versus digital scams, right?

798
00:44:09,629 --> 00:44:10,979
But we are trying to join the dots.

799
00:44:10,979 --> 00:44:15,989
We are trying to connect the two worlds
together, and the core of that is helping

800
00:44:15,989 --> 00:44:17,289
consumers out right at the end of the day.

801
00:44:17,759 --> 00:44:19,259
We want to keep people safe.

802
00:44:19,589 --> 00:44:23,669
And one of the means that we also do
this, even if it's not through digital

803
00:44:23,669 --> 00:44:27,309
protection, is through education, ? And so
some of these reports, some of the scams

804
00:44:27,309 --> 00:44:31,799
that we talk about, we protect you as much
as we can with the devices, but we also

805
00:44:31,799 --> 00:44:35,909
put more information out there to just
educate you and safeguard you overall.

806
00:44:37,364 --> 00:44:41,804
Yeah, and I, and that's one thing I
think we talk about the amount that's

807
00:44:41,804 --> 00:44:46,754
lost or the amount of dollars, but the
reality is nobody really knows because

808
00:44:47,054 --> 00:44:52,274
the stats are that about 15% of people
actually report, if you're lucky.

809
00:44:54,089 --> 00:44:57,459
Because of the shame, because of
the fact that, and I point out, I've

810
00:44:57,579 --> 00:45:01,189
talked about my father was scammed,
because he thought my brother

811
00:45:01,189 --> 00:45:03,169
was in trouble and he sent money.

812
00:45:03,409 --> 00:45:10,159
My father was and was a very intelligent
man who knew the world, who would, was,

813
00:45:10,729 --> 00:45:13,669
had traveled the world very well educated.

814
00:45:14,104 --> 00:45:16,684
Hit him in the middle of the night
at two o'clock in the morning

815
00:45:17,014 --> 00:45:20,764
with something and he succumbs.

816
00:45:21,184 --> 00:45:25,224
So it's, this is something that
we don't talk enough about, but

817
00:45:25,224 --> 00:45:29,064
I hope through talking about
it, I hope by sharing stories,

818
00:45:29,514 --> 00:45:31,044
people will hear it more and more.

819
00:45:31,044 --> 00:45:35,514
So maybe they'll feel that, wait a
minute, is that I should check that out.

820
00:45:35,514 --> 00:45:36,684
if we do nothing else than that.

821
00:45:36,684 --> 00:45:39,284
I think we've done a good job,
and I applaud the research

822
00:45:39,284 --> 00:45:40,364
that you guys have done.

823
00:45:42,104 --> 00:45:42,944
Yeah, no, thank you.

824
00:45:43,694 --> 00:45:46,344
Yeah, and I don't have to
say like you will see it.

825
00:45:46,344 --> 00:45:49,944
Everybody is experiencing this
sort of evolution, ai, right?

826
00:45:50,184 --> 00:45:50,454
Where.

827
00:45:51,279 --> 00:45:56,839
Just four years ago, the scams used
to be very dry over emails, but now

828
00:45:56,839 --> 00:46:00,869
you're seeing the videos and not
everything that is AI generated is bad.

829
00:46:00,919 --> 00:46:04,999
there's a huge element of creativity
there, but you can tell that the

830
00:46:05,029 --> 00:46:06,379
videos are getting more real.

831
00:46:06,589 --> 00:46:10,369
The audio is getting more real
to the point where as a human,

832
00:46:10,369 --> 00:46:13,699
it becomes more difficult for
you to perceive fake from real.

833
00:46:13,939 --> 00:46:18,699
And That is definitely one of the reasons,
and I a hundred percent agree with you.

834
00:46:19,314 --> 00:46:21,144
The best it gets the best of the best.

835
00:46:21,324 --> 00:46:24,894
So you could be the most tech
savvy person in the world, right?

836
00:46:24,894 --> 00:46:30,064
You could be a technology specialist,
a coder, a developer, but there are

837
00:46:30,124 --> 00:46:34,684
fake job scams out there that have
gotten people who are desperate, right?

838
00:46:34,684 --> 00:46:38,404
So again, like in that desperate
situation, you do things that

839
00:46:38,404 --> 00:46:39,514
you would never have done.

840
00:46:39,754 --> 00:46:44,054
And the reality and the pragmatism
in many ways can be lost.

841
00:46:44,054 --> 00:46:46,739
When you see something,
it's a, it's about.

842
00:46:47,989 --> 00:46:51,224
Making hay while the wind sun shines, and
that's what scammers are really good at.

843
00:46:52,774 --> 00:46:53,104
Yeah.

844
00:46:53,109 --> 00:46:54,299
and I think you're absolutely right.

845
00:46:54,304 --> 00:46:57,804
I really appreciate what you said about,
they'll adapt to the different emotions.

846
00:46:57,804 --> 00:47:00,324
Sometimes it's to desperation,
sometimes it's to loneliness,

847
00:47:00,474 --> 00:47:01,614
sometimes it's excitement.

848
00:47:01,794 --> 00:47:03,084
These guys are really good.

849
00:47:03,624 --> 00:47:05,544
I wonder just how much
better they've gotten.

850
00:47:07,114 --> 00:47:10,384
And one of the things we talked about
earlier that, that I caught in there, and

851
00:47:10,384 --> 00:47:16,684
I was even, we, you talked about ai and
even this is a, this is an older story.

852
00:47:16,684 --> 00:47:21,334
It's had time to, she's had time to
publish a book, but even then the scammers

853
00:47:21,334 --> 00:47:23,824
were starting to use AI and deep fakes.

854
00:47:23,994 --> 00:47:27,054
so if we'd spoken about
AI back in 2018, right?

855
00:47:27,144 --> 00:47:28,494
We knew that this is coming.

856
00:47:28,834 --> 00:47:33,974
but then, a few years ago when we started
seeing a lot more companies creating voice

857
00:47:33,974 --> 00:47:36,944
clones and things like that, we had a
separate report on that a few years ago.

858
00:47:37,134 --> 00:47:38,614
that's when the ham mom scams.

859
00:47:38,704 --> 00:47:43,264
Scams, sorry, started, that's when
the hey mum scams started, right?

860
00:47:44,134 --> 00:47:47,414
Ever since we've seen, exponential
growth in the adoption of these tools.

861
00:47:47,414 --> 00:47:51,284
And one of the reasons why is because
there is a very low bar to entry.

862
00:47:51,534 --> 00:47:53,934
it was very difficult to
install these tools in the past.

863
00:47:54,204 --> 00:47:58,824
It's much easier to find services
that offer this to you for a very

864
00:47:59,274 --> 00:48:01,414
small, subscription amount, right?

865
00:48:01,414 --> 00:48:03,394
So you can create clones,
you can create videos.

866
00:48:03,704 --> 00:48:05,564
there's hardware if you
wanna do it at home.

867
00:48:05,754 --> 00:48:09,949
most of the laptops, most of the devices
are very powerful that you can create.

868
00:48:10,509 --> 00:48:11,799
Live videos.

869
00:48:12,009 --> 00:48:18,339
So for example, Beth spoke about coming
on the camera for a brief moment and

870
00:48:18,339 --> 00:48:19,899
speaking to this person in real time.

871
00:48:20,199 --> 00:48:25,359
Yes, you can face off
somebody's face on a video.

872
00:48:25,794 --> 00:48:28,254
In real time today, you
couldn't do that two years ago.

873
00:48:28,254 --> 00:48:31,804
You couldn't do that very, very
effectively, two, three years ago.

874
00:48:31,804 --> 00:48:33,484
But the technology is there.

875
00:48:33,694 --> 00:48:37,724
You can do that in real time, so
it's only getting more real and

876
00:48:37,724 --> 00:48:39,524
it's only going growing much faster.

877
00:48:39,764 --> 00:48:43,004
and the business establishments
that are adopting these techniques

878
00:48:43,084 --> 00:48:44,614
are the scammers, right?

879
00:48:44,674 --> 00:48:47,494
So they have effective centers where
they've set up, they've got the

880
00:48:47,494 --> 00:48:50,944
right tools, they've got the right
software, and then they target you.

881
00:48:52,399 --> 00:48:57,089
Yeah, and one of the things that
struck me out of this was how deep the

882
00:48:57,089 --> 00:49:01,529
research was and how she confessed.

883
00:49:01,919 --> 00:49:06,179
He knew every psychological trigger
to use, and I wanna stress this.

884
00:49:06,179 --> 00:49:09,779
Again, this is not some woman who's
desperate to meet a man or any of those

885
00:49:09,779 --> 00:49:11,249
fictions that you might have in your head.

886
00:49:11,489 --> 00:49:17,519
This is a very careful manipulation
of someone over a long period of time.

887
00:49:17,759 --> 00:49:19,379
Now, I can't help but wonder.

888
00:49:19,709 --> 00:49:23,329
I presume that these people have PhDs
in psychology, or at least they have

889
00:49:23,329 --> 00:49:28,429
that advice, but they also, I think,
are using AI very effectively to study

890
00:49:28,429 --> 00:49:30,969
people online, and that has two aspects.

891
00:49:30,969 --> 00:49:35,969
One is maybe we have too much information
about ourselves online, that is

892
00:49:36,209 --> 00:49:40,679
not just our names and addresses,
but our preferences, who we are and

893
00:49:40,679 --> 00:49:42,659
all that, and our vulnerabilities.

894
00:49:44,454 --> 00:49:44,994
That's true.

895
00:49:45,024 --> 00:49:51,114
So one of the advices we always given our
consumers is that don't overpost online.

896
00:49:51,274 --> 00:49:53,164
Don't put too much information online.

897
00:49:53,494 --> 00:49:56,854
Be cautious about what your privacy
settings are for whatever platform

898
00:49:56,854 --> 00:49:58,774
of choice that you are plugged in.

899
00:49:58,774 --> 00:50:01,144
Social platforms especially, right?

900
00:50:01,144 --> 00:50:01,684
And because.

901
00:50:01,889 --> 00:50:05,459
It's not difficult for scammers to
go and cultivate information about

902
00:50:05,459 --> 00:50:07,349
you and then use that against you.

903
00:50:07,529 --> 00:50:12,649
So it goes from being a generic scam to a
more spearfish scam where they try you and

904
00:50:12,649 --> 00:50:19,039
once they hook the victim, once they find
the right victim that fits the persona,

905
00:50:19,339 --> 00:50:21,319
then you'll see that crescendo effect.

906
00:50:21,319 --> 00:50:23,124
It builds up, so they already have.

907
00:50:23,854 --> 00:50:27,234
Some information about you, but then
they get a conversation, into, they

908
00:50:27,234 --> 00:50:28,824
get into a conversation with you.

909
00:50:29,124 --> 00:50:32,064
They learn more about you as
a result of that conversation.

910
00:50:32,364 --> 00:50:33,984
That's where the trust starts building up.

911
00:50:34,254 --> 00:50:37,524
And soon enough, they know
enough about you that they

912
00:50:37,524 --> 00:50:39,444
can scam you in multiple ways.

913
00:50:39,684 --> 00:50:42,354
So not only can you get scammed.

914
00:50:43,179 --> 00:50:46,929
In a romance scam, for example, at the
moment, it sets you up for something

915
00:50:46,929 --> 00:50:48,489
called a replay attack, right?

916
00:50:48,489 --> 00:50:53,229
Where you could have other scammers
that are now sold, that information

917
00:50:53,439 --> 00:50:57,399
that was given out by you, either
in the romance scam or through

918
00:50:57,399 --> 00:51:00,579
phishing or multiple ways, could be
a part of a breach as well, right?

919
00:51:00,789 --> 00:51:04,779
But once multiple scammers have the
information and they know that this

920
00:51:04,779 --> 00:51:09,679
is a gullible victim, then they
can have more scams targeting you.

921
00:51:10,324 --> 00:51:15,164
It's not uncommon to see that once
you get scammed you will be, subject

922
00:51:15,164 --> 00:51:19,044
to scams again, like the ransomware
thing where if you get hit and pay

923
00:51:19,044 --> 00:51:21,924
the ransom, they know you pay ransoms.

924
00:51:22,074 --> 00:51:26,844
. And the other thing about this though,
with the AI aspect of it was in this story

925
00:51:26,844 --> 00:51:29,364
was how many documents they could produce.

926
00:51:30,294 --> 00:51:34,284
and how they could have these
forged documents that looked real,

927
00:51:34,524 --> 00:51:36,904
that had all, and reams of them.

928
00:51:37,174 --> 00:51:40,564
And I, I think, wow, in the old
days, if you had to do that by

929
00:51:40,564 --> 00:51:44,274
hand, you'd be, it would be tough
because they were all customized.

930
00:51:44,274 --> 00:51:47,304
These was, this was set up
to perfectly match this scam.

931
00:51:47,604 --> 00:51:49,974
And I guess now with ai,
that's really easy to do.

932
00:51:51,369 --> 00:51:53,889
AI has actually leveled the
playing field in many ways.

933
00:51:53,889 --> 00:51:58,399
Like it is a convergence of
automation and ai, That's making

934
00:51:58,399 --> 00:52:00,089
a bigger, splash right now.

935
00:52:00,089 --> 00:52:04,499
Because, in the past you had
to spend a lot of time coding,

936
00:52:04,499 --> 00:52:05,849
things like that, right?

937
00:52:05,849 --> 00:52:09,209
But now you don't have to be like
this hacker that we thought about

938
00:52:09,209 --> 00:52:12,329
who is supreme at, cracking code
and finding exploits or whatever.

939
00:52:12,539 --> 00:52:13,949
No, it's simple, right?

940
00:52:14,069 --> 00:52:15,719
You can do a lot more.

941
00:52:16,014 --> 00:52:18,864
In a much easier way, you just
have to talk your way into

942
00:52:18,864 --> 00:52:23,674
creating a PDF document that looks
real, or images for that reason.

943
00:52:23,674 --> 00:52:29,614
So the amount of effort that goes into
building these tools, automating these

944
00:52:29,614 --> 00:52:32,164
tools is way easier than it used to be.

945
00:52:32,374 --> 00:52:35,399
And therefore, the scale of
attacks has increased tremendously.

946
00:52:37,119 --> 00:52:37,569
Yeah.

947
00:52:37,779 --> 00:52:41,319
And there is a technology side to
this and I was catching that just in

948
00:52:41,319 --> 00:52:42,279
some of the things I was looking at.

949
00:52:42,279 --> 00:52:44,739
And I thought about this
because I'm pitched.

950
00:52:44,919 --> 00:52:49,479
I guess once you turn, you're over 65,
you really still are a target group.

951
00:52:49,689 --> 00:52:53,539
'cause I get all of these young women
who write me and I know they see me

952
00:52:53,539 --> 00:52:56,059
online and no, I'm not that good looking.

953
00:52:56,059 --> 00:52:59,269
Sorry, I get pitched all the time.

954
00:52:59,269 --> 00:53:00,019
Oh, hi.

955
00:53:00,079 --> 00:53:02,179
And some of them are pretty too.

956
00:53:02,179 --> 00:53:03,709
They're not just the usual.

957
00:53:04,324 --> 00:53:07,024
scammed to try and get you
romantically or anything like that.

958
00:53:07,114 --> 00:53:08,914
Some of them are, hi, Jim.

959
00:53:08,974 --> 00:53:11,044
I, you met me six months ago.

960
00:53:11,204 --> 00:53:14,694
and they, and we talked, I just
wanted to get back in touch.

961
00:53:15,324 --> 00:53:19,034
Now if you send me that
type of text, don't bother.

962
00:53:19,154 --> 00:53:19,844
I'm gonna delete it.

963
00:53:20,414 --> 00:53:21,954
But a lot of people don't.

964
00:53:24,099 --> 00:53:27,969
hey, like some of the advice you
give generic consumers doesn't

965
00:53:27,969 --> 00:53:29,079
apply to media people, right?

966
00:53:29,079 --> 00:53:32,229
Like you are out there, your voice
is out there, your face is out there.

967
00:53:32,359 --> 00:53:35,009
you definitely are targets
for scams as well now.

968
00:53:35,249 --> 00:53:35,609
Yeah.

969
00:53:36,059 --> 00:53:40,349
you will get a lot of unsolicited messages
coming from people and you romance

970
00:53:40,349 --> 00:53:41,939
scams especially, that's how it starts.

971
00:53:42,159 --> 00:53:46,134
the initial contact is very, it
is like a mistake that happened.

972
00:53:46,314 --> 00:53:50,154
Somebody said, sent a message to
the wrong person, but got you hooked

973
00:53:50,154 --> 00:53:53,994
into a conversation, Hey, are you
meeting me for this party on Friday?

974
00:53:54,174 --> 00:53:56,394
And you're like, Hey, no, you
got the wrong person, but I

975
00:53:56,394 --> 00:53:57,354
hope you enjoy your party.

976
00:53:57,714 --> 00:54:00,324
And then they were like, you
seem like a really nice person.

977
00:54:00,324 --> 00:54:01,164
Would you like to chat?

978
00:54:01,464 --> 00:54:04,694
So the people who get who are
gullible and wanna be helpful,

979
00:54:04,694 --> 00:54:05,894
because that's in our nature, right?

980
00:54:05,894 --> 00:54:08,264
We wanna help people and
direct them the right way.

981
00:54:08,759 --> 00:54:12,029
Those are also the people who get
scammed because once you engage

982
00:54:12,029 --> 00:54:15,369
with these unknown people, you
never know where it's gonna lead.

983
00:54:15,549 --> 00:54:19,159
And everybody wants, like you,
you want something exciting.

984
00:54:19,159 --> 00:54:22,824
that sort of a interaction sometimes can
be exciting, but it can also be dangerous.

985
00:54:23,944 --> 00:54:27,829
But I've met people online
who I, whose company I enjoy.

986
00:54:27,979 --> 00:54:30,469
I met some great people who
were doing great work online.

987
00:54:30,839 --> 00:54:34,889
I just don't, I be, I've learned not
to respond to some things, but that

988
00:54:34,889 --> 00:54:38,099
doesn't mean that, that I wouldn't
be vulnerable to them otherwise.

989
00:54:38,309 --> 00:54:41,724
And, but now with ai, they're
constructing whole, from I, from your

990
00:54:41,724 --> 00:54:45,864
report, they're constructing whole
dating services and that are out

991
00:54:45,864 --> 00:54:48,024
there as, I guess honey pots or traps.

992
00:54:49,129 --> 00:54:52,519
there's, different ways that they
try to, get you into the scam.

993
00:54:52,519 --> 00:54:54,799
So one of them is, it
may not even be a scam.

994
00:54:54,799 --> 00:54:55,759
It could lead to malware.

995
00:54:55,759 --> 00:54:58,309
So for example, if you're looking
for a dating app, people just,

996
00:54:58,309 --> 00:54:59,719
Trojan is such dating apps.

997
00:54:59,899 --> 00:55:03,319
And then before you know it, you have
an information stealer on your machine,

998
00:55:03,529 --> 00:55:04,939
which is harvesting information.

999
00:55:05,209 --> 00:55:07,729
Once they get that information,
they might call you back.

1000
00:55:08,009 --> 00:55:10,269
some of these mobile apps can, take your.

1001
00:55:10,574 --> 00:55:12,914
Images from your phone and send it across.

1002
00:55:13,034 --> 00:55:16,514
So there's, it's not only scams,
it can be malware as well.

1003
00:55:16,704 --> 00:55:21,334
But just coming back to the point
you made about romance scams, one

1004
00:55:21,334 --> 00:55:26,014
of the things that I would advise
people to do is that at some point

1005
00:55:26,074 --> 00:55:27,484
you might wanna meet that person.

1006
00:55:28,244 --> 00:55:29,264
The flesh, right?

1007
00:55:29,264 --> 00:55:33,284
Because one, one of the common tactics
you'll observe is that they're always

1008
00:55:33,284 --> 00:55:34,874
trying to shy away from those meetings.

1009
00:55:35,084 --> 00:55:39,044
They will always find an excuse
not to meet you in person, right?

1010
00:55:39,194 --> 00:55:44,174
And so if you see that happening,
that's a huge red flag, right?

1011
00:55:44,234 --> 00:55:45,914
Same thing for job scams and other scams.

1012
00:55:45,914 --> 00:55:48,644
Like at the end of the day, like
you wanna meet the person you

1013
00:55:48,644 --> 00:55:51,434
are interviewing or the person
you're interacting with, because.

1014
00:55:52,199 --> 00:55:53,759
That's when the rubber hits the road.

1015
00:55:53,759 --> 00:55:57,539
Like you know that, okay, this person is
genuine only when you meet them in person.

1016
00:55:57,929 --> 00:56:02,969
Now, the other thing is, the
other red flag is when some

1017
00:56:02,969 --> 00:56:04,619
of these scammers try to.

1018
00:56:05,399 --> 00:56:08,159
Encourage you not to talk
to your family, right?

1019
00:56:08,159 --> 00:56:10,139
Or the victim themselves.

1020
00:56:10,289 --> 00:56:13,649
They don't want to disclose a romantic
relationship with their family.

1021
00:56:13,839 --> 00:56:17,949
And one of the things that probably BET
did really well in her experience was she

1022
00:56:17,949 --> 00:56:19,959
spoke to her financial manager, right?

1023
00:56:20,429 --> 00:56:24,719
she was able to get advice from
somebody who had an unbiased

1024
00:56:24,869 --> 00:56:26,999
view of the situation, right?

1025
00:56:27,029 --> 00:56:28,739
And in many scams.

1026
00:56:29,219 --> 00:56:33,149
I would highly encourage you
to keep your family involved in

1027
00:56:33,149 --> 00:56:35,129
who you interact with, right?

1028
00:56:35,369 --> 00:56:39,209
Because you might get advice from
somebody within your family who you

1029
00:56:39,209 --> 00:56:43,119
really trust as opposed to somebody
you don't trust, ? And that can be a

1030
00:56:43,119 --> 00:56:47,139
big difference between getting scammed
and not getting scammed and scam.

1031
00:56:47,169 --> 00:56:50,189
It's not only scams, it has
a whole emotional impact.

1032
00:56:50,389 --> 00:56:53,929
there are people who st like
the psychological effect this

1033
00:56:53,929 --> 00:56:55,519
can have on you is tremendous,

1034
00:56:55,829 --> 00:57:00,029
?
And In many ways, the further you get
in, the more damage that'll be done.

1035
00:57:00,269 --> 00:57:04,199
So by engaging with your family, with
trusted people early on, getting their

1036
00:57:04,199 --> 00:57:08,209
opinion is probably a good sort of,
approach to these situations as well.

1037
00:57:08,869 --> 00:57:11,299
And I can't say enough about
the fact that, you talked

1038
00:57:11,299 --> 00:57:12,379
about our financial manager.

1039
00:57:12,919 --> 00:57:16,939
We, in all aspects of corporate
life need to train people

1040
00:57:17,029 --> 00:57:18,709
to deal with this situation.

1041
00:57:19,219 --> 00:57:20,419
It's really important.

1042
00:57:20,419 --> 00:57:21,859
Anybody who touches money.

1043
00:57:22,414 --> 00:57:25,534
Anybody who touches a
flashpoint where this can occur.

1044
00:57:25,864 --> 00:57:31,104
And her, obviously her financial advisor
had been well-trained not only to

1045
00:57:31,104 --> 00:57:33,864
spot this, but in how to deal with it.

1046
00:57:34,554 --> 00:57:36,924
I, we used to have a lot of scams where.

1047
00:57:37,584 --> 00:57:40,344
People would be scammed into
getting these gift cards.

1048
00:57:40,524 --> 00:57:45,894
I'm sure it still works, but what's
taken a lot of that out of the market

1049
00:57:46,044 --> 00:57:50,244
is just training people to say,
you're buying too many gift cards.

1050
00:57:50,634 --> 00:57:52,524
Can you talk to me
about why you need them?

1051
00:57:52,884 --> 00:57:54,264
Maybe I can help you out.

1052
00:57:54,654 --> 00:57:57,054
And I, I can't say enough
about that training and.

1053
00:57:57,714 --> 00:58:00,624
Banks, cashiers, everywhere else.

1054
00:58:00,744 --> 00:58:06,384
And I think also everyone who's in a
public area, even your managers need

1055
00:58:06,414 --> 00:58:10,764
to be able to help be able to be there
and understand when this is happening.

1056
00:58:10,764 --> 00:58:14,194
And if your employees are threatened,
and I'm not saying that people who

1057
00:58:14,224 --> 00:58:18,224
fall victims of romance scam are
gonna be a threat for your company.

1058
00:58:18,224 --> 00:58:19,334
I'm not saying that at all.

1059
00:58:19,334 --> 00:58:23,624
But as cybersecurity professionals,
we need to know this because

1060
00:58:23,984 --> 00:58:25,844
people who are under duress.

1061
00:58:26,234 --> 00:58:30,314
Are a threat, and that, that's
just the reality of the world.

1062
00:58:30,494 --> 00:58:33,414
We have a police scandal
in, Toronto, near me.

1063
00:58:33,804 --> 00:58:40,074
And, the, one of the policemen who
was caught up in this, everybody

1064
00:58:40,074 --> 00:58:41,484
thought of him as a straight up guy.

1065
00:58:41,814 --> 00:58:43,374
He ran into real financial trouble.

1066
00:58:44,769 --> 00:58:48,994
All of a sudden he, he finds a way
out or he thinks he finds a way out.

1067
00:58:49,044 --> 00:58:51,954
we have to, we need to spot
this as professionals as well.

1068
00:58:51,954 --> 00:58:55,254
I guess I'm saying we all need
training and we all need awareness.

1069
00:58:56,484 --> 00:58:56,994
Yeah.

1070
00:58:57,094 --> 00:58:58,684
in security we call it a kill chain.

1071
00:58:58,784 --> 00:58:59,774
So it starts.

1072
00:59:00,359 --> 00:59:03,269
At one point, and there are
multiple vantage points along the

1073
00:59:03,269 --> 00:59:06,749
way before you get scammed that
you can pick these signals up.

1074
00:59:07,079 --> 00:59:11,059
And if you see the scammers, they'll
initially touch base with you on

1075
00:59:11,209 --> 00:59:14,869
text messages, then they'll get you
to go to WhatsApp, then they'll get

1076
00:59:14,869 --> 00:59:18,379
you to go to Telegram and engage
with some financial advisor or

1077
00:59:18,379 --> 00:59:20,269
somebody on the other side, right?

1078
00:59:20,509 --> 00:59:25,064
And so I think we are
trying to figure out.

1079
00:59:25,744 --> 00:59:28,054
What are the right vantage points
that we can help people at?

1080
00:59:28,114 --> 00:59:32,674
And it's almost impossible for
every organization to be plugged

1081
00:59:32,674 --> 00:59:34,804
into every part of that kill chain.

1082
00:59:35,164 --> 00:59:39,934
And therefore, like you correctly
said, yes, we try to pick it

1083
00:59:39,934 --> 00:59:41,164
up early on in the kill chain.

1084
00:59:42,014 --> 00:59:45,644
but you need some plugins at
financial institutions, right?

1085
00:59:45,644 --> 00:59:47,444
When the money is gonna be gone.

1086
00:59:47,694 --> 00:59:51,024
whether it's a Bitcoin transfer,
whether it's a gift card, whether it's

1087
00:59:51,054 --> 00:59:55,424
a financial, a financial transfer that
happens, at the bank itself, right?

1088
00:59:56,114 --> 00:59:57,884
it's not about who's sending the money.

1089
00:59:58,214 --> 01:00:02,834
It's important for banks to understand
who's receiving the money, right?

1090
01:00:02,834 --> 01:00:03,254
Because.

1091
01:00:03,854 --> 01:00:08,084
To be able to be effective in catching
these scams, you have to build a good

1092
01:00:08,084 --> 01:00:11,354
profile on who's on the receiving
end, because at the end of the day,

1093
01:00:11,354 --> 01:00:13,094
those, that's where it all ends up.

1094
01:00:13,244 --> 01:00:15,854
It all ends at who receives the money.

1095
01:00:16,124 --> 01:00:22,214
And we as an industry, as an organization,
really need to organize ourselves

1096
01:00:22,214 --> 01:00:28,334
better across this entire industry
to build the right security measures

1097
01:00:28,454 --> 01:00:30,279
at every part of that, kill chain.

1098
01:00:31,894 --> 01:00:32,094
Yeah.

1099
01:00:32,104 --> 01:00:33,214
good advice on that.

1100
01:00:33,314 --> 01:00:37,105
there are technical aspects to this
though, and I think you've got, you.

1101
01:00:37,564 --> 01:00:42,364
You do some filtering of some of
these messages, so you can actually

1102
01:00:42,784 --> 01:00:47,074
get, and I, I, you sell the product
and I, I'm not trying to sell your

1103
01:00:47,074 --> 01:00:50,254
product, but I'm just saying there
are technical things that you can do.

1104
01:00:50,704 --> 01:00:51,964
You can get some basic filters.

1105
01:00:51,964 --> 01:00:54,784
I and I, we've always said, don't
fall in love with technology.

1106
01:00:54,784 --> 01:00:58,384
it won't save you all the time, but
it can help . What types of things can

1107
01:00:58,384 --> 01:01:00,744
technology do to help make this better?

1108
01:01:01,524 --> 01:01:03,674
There's so much that we are
doing now, we are monitoring.

1109
01:01:04,544 --> 01:01:07,274
Every aspect of your interaction, okay?

1110
01:01:07,274 --> 01:01:11,174
So that we can safeguard you as much as
possible and be investing in those areas.

1111
01:01:11,384 --> 01:01:14,144
So what are the different ways
that you can get scammed, right?

1112
01:01:14,144 --> 01:01:16,214
It's not just over email anymore.

1113
01:01:16,454 --> 01:01:19,454
It's over text messages,
it's over social platforms.

1114
01:01:19,664 --> 01:01:23,504
It's also the physical world where
you go and scan a QR code, right?

1115
01:01:23,554 --> 01:01:25,834
it's just don't, that's all I can, sorry.

1116
01:01:25,954 --> 01:01:27,424
That's all I can say about QR codes.

1117
01:01:27,484 --> 01:01:29,464
Just don't, yeah.

1118
01:01:29,514 --> 01:01:30,584
it's, so yeah.

1119
01:01:31,004 --> 01:01:37,064
Where McAfee's investing is trying to use
AI against ai, like how do we leverage ai.

1120
01:01:38,244 --> 01:01:39,024
To fight ai.

1121
01:01:39,084 --> 01:01:43,674
And so we are building the right tools for
text detection, for email detection, for

1122
01:01:43,674 --> 01:01:48,754
deep fake detection, but besides that, we
also have things like malware protection,

1123
01:01:48,754 --> 01:01:53,114
mobile protection, like I explained to
you for the Trojan Malware, URL protection

1124
01:01:53,164 --> 01:01:54,634
and there's many more, including.

1125
01:01:54,979 --> 01:01:56,809
Personal identity protection, right?

1126
01:01:56,809 --> 01:02:01,399
Because at the end of the day, you might
do everything right as a consumer, right?

1127
01:02:01,399 --> 01:02:04,879
You may be super cautious about where
you post your information, how you

1128
01:02:04,879 --> 01:02:08,599
interact with strangers, but then it
might be an organization that manages

1129
01:02:08,599 --> 01:02:10,459
your data that gets breached, right?

1130
01:02:10,519 --> 01:02:14,164
So it's important that you're
also investing in, identity

1131
01:02:14,164 --> 01:02:15,694
monitoring, dark web monitoring.

1132
01:02:16,114 --> 01:02:19,354
There's a whole suite of things
that technology can help with.

1133
01:02:19,744 --> 01:02:21,334
And in this world of ai.

1134
01:02:22,279 --> 01:02:26,749
Based on our discussion, I can say
that it becomes very difficult for

1135
01:02:26,749 --> 01:02:30,559
the human eye or the ear, depending
on whether it's video or voice, or

1136
01:02:30,559 --> 01:02:32,709
both, to identify fake from real.

1137
01:02:32,949 --> 01:02:38,169
And so you almost need these tools
that are highly trained and are

1138
01:02:38,169 --> 01:02:42,369
capable of helping you identify
that synthetic information that

1139
01:02:42,579 --> 01:02:43,929
we are processing every day,

1140
01:02:44,179 --> 01:02:45,259
so it's not.

1141
01:02:45,904 --> 01:02:49,714
It's not just you who's gonna be
able to solve all these issues.

1142
01:02:49,714 --> 01:02:51,664
You need some sort of tools to help you.

1143
01:02:51,664 --> 01:02:55,754
And that's where, I think digital
assistance are becoming very valuable.

1144
01:02:57,524 --> 01:02:59,264
What do you see as the future of this?

1145
01:02:59,269 --> 01:03:01,594
what are the things that you're
looking at going forward?

1146
01:03:02,974 --> 01:03:06,364
I feel that consumers are gonna
be more susceptible to these

1147
01:03:06,364 --> 01:03:09,734
attacks moving forward, and it's
only gonna get, grow a lot more.

1148
01:03:09,924 --> 01:03:13,074
on the enterprise side, like I would say
that you have a lot of security measures.

1149
01:03:13,074 --> 01:03:16,014
You have a security operations
center, for example.

1150
01:03:16,144 --> 01:03:18,634
people dedicated to
securing your organization.

1151
01:03:18,874 --> 01:03:19,744
They look at all of that.

1152
01:03:19,984 --> 01:03:23,044
But on the consumer side, you'd
really need more of that in this.

1153
01:03:23,344 --> 01:03:26,554
Age of ai just two weeks
ago or just a week ago.

1154
01:03:26,804 --> 01:03:30,014
there've been all kinds of exploits
related to open claw or mold port.

1155
01:03:30,014 --> 01:03:32,814
I don't know if you've heard of that,
but oh, we've done a fair bit on this.

1156
01:03:33,004 --> 01:03:35,044
that's, you've heard me on QR codes.

1157
01:03:35,044 --> 01:03:35,974
Just say no.

1158
01:03:36,484 --> 01:03:40,284
If you've, if anybody says to
put open claw on your machine.

1159
01:03:40,794 --> 01:03:42,654
Just say no.

1160
01:03:43,704 --> 01:03:46,704
The, it's but that's where we
leave, that's where we are heading.

1161
01:03:46,754 --> 01:03:50,354
So if you think about it, open
claw is a good demonstration

1162
01:03:50,354 --> 01:03:52,034
of what's to come, right?

1163
01:03:52,304 --> 01:03:56,054
Agent AI is gonna be a part of our
lives, whether we like it or not,

1164
01:03:56,109 --> 01:03:59,259
It's complicated to the general
consumer to install open closet, so

1165
01:03:59,259 --> 01:04:00,429
they probably won't do it anyway.

1166
01:04:00,679 --> 01:04:06,109
But at some point when applications and
organizations start building that into

1167
01:04:06,109 --> 01:04:10,609
software that they provide you, which
has an agentic component into it, that

1168
01:04:10,609 --> 01:04:15,859
opens you up to a bunch of supply chain
attacks, all kinds of activities where.

1169
01:04:16,119 --> 01:04:19,419
you're enabling your browser to
act on your behalf, to buy tickets

1170
01:04:19,419 --> 01:04:22,389
on your behalf, to do bookings
to the point where you're giving

1171
01:04:22,389 --> 01:04:24,009
them your financial information.

1172
01:04:24,139 --> 01:04:25,669
your API keys, all of that.

1173
01:04:26,059 --> 01:04:33,019
And that sets up the attack surface,
like in an, in, that, that attack surface

1174
01:04:33,019 --> 01:04:35,899
just got way broader than it used to be.

1175
01:04:35,899 --> 01:04:37,519
And so I see that.

1176
01:04:38,394 --> 01:04:41,784
Becoming more important in the
consumer's life on being able to

1177
01:04:41,784 --> 01:04:42,984
safeguard and protect themselves.

1178
01:04:42,984 --> 01:04:45,954
Because you're gonna have to use
automation, you're gonna have to

1179
01:04:45,954 --> 01:04:48,684
use tools, fight AI against ai.

1180
01:04:48,894 --> 01:04:51,504
Like I said, it's just gonna
be a part of everybody's lives.

1181
01:04:52,704 --> 01:04:53,004
Yes.

1182
01:04:53,004 --> 01:04:55,374
And I think it will be, and
I think it's inevitable too.

1183
01:04:55,374 --> 01:04:56,544
and by the way, I'm not a ludite.

1184
01:04:56,584 --> 01:04:58,564
I'm a tech guy that's, I love this stuff.

1185
01:04:58,894 --> 01:05:03,214
I just think if you don't understand
how something works fully.

1186
01:05:04,489 --> 01:05:07,879
You can't think it through and you
can't find an expert to guide you on

1187
01:05:07,879 --> 01:05:11,629
it or really solid information about
it, don't put it on your machine.

1188
01:05:12,169 --> 01:05:16,604
And that's really my message for people
because if the message from the developers

1189
01:05:16,604 --> 01:05:21,464
of Open Claw is if you really not, if you
don't understand what the command line is.

1190
01:05:21,914 --> 01:05:24,194
How to work that better than anybody else.

1191
01:05:24,464 --> 01:05:27,584
Don't install this stuff because there's
a whole pile of things behind it.

1192
01:05:27,794 --> 01:05:31,484
It will we'll catch up and,
people, companies like yours will

1193
01:05:31,484 --> 01:05:35,374
build security and people will
build secure aspects of this.

1194
01:05:35,644 --> 01:05:39,334
But it, you don't wanna be
first in this sort of thing

1195
01:05:39,334 --> 01:05:41,314
or I guess the emotion again.

1196
01:05:41,364 --> 01:05:45,624
I wanna, I want to be first at this, that
it's emotions that get us into trouble.

1197
01:05:47,004 --> 01:05:47,244
Yeah.

1198
01:05:47,244 --> 01:05:49,704
For anybody developing software and
there's a lot of people who are trying

1199
01:05:49,704 --> 01:05:51,774
to come up with great ideas, right?

1200
01:05:51,834 --> 01:05:55,164
It, there's a race to build these
agentic tools and everything.

1201
01:05:55,164 --> 01:05:59,884
I think the underlying message to everyone
is, keep trust and safety in mind.

1202
01:05:59,884 --> 01:06:02,674
build that foundation
from day zero, right?

1203
01:06:02,674 --> 01:06:06,804
Because that's how you keep everybody
safe and like you correctly said,

1204
01:06:07,044 --> 01:06:08,964
the key message to the consumers is.

1205
01:06:09,464 --> 01:06:11,024
Don't take things on face value.

1206
01:06:11,384 --> 01:06:12,104
Trust your gut.

1207
01:06:12,194 --> 01:06:14,844
Trust your intuition, and
really trust the source.

1208
01:06:15,014 --> 01:06:19,064
do not install things where you
don't have a good understanding or

1209
01:06:19,214 --> 01:06:20,864
you haven't had a second opinion.

1210
01:06:21,384 --> 01:06:25,614
go to trusted websites, use trusted
software, but then also look at,

1211
01:06:25,784 --> 01:06:27,044
who's developing that software?

1212
01:06:27,074 --> 01:06:30,944
are they a trusted organization that
really invests in security, right?

1213
01:06:30,944 --> 01:06:33,944
Because at the core of
everything is gonna be security.

1214
01:06:34,869 --> 01:06:37,869
Yeah, and a huge amount of, I, I
apologize if I'm talking down to a huge

1215
01:06:37,869 --> 01:06:42,489
amount of our audience are cybersecurity
professionals, and, but this is the

1216
01:06:42,489 --> 01:06:46,209
type of messaging I think you have to
have the courage to take out to people.

1217
01:06:46,209 --> 01:06:48,729
Even though you're excited about
technology, you have to have the

1218
01:06:48,729 --> 01:06:52,299
courage to be a wet blanket from
time to time, or at least to

1219
01:06:52,299 --> 01:06:54,299
say, you need to stop and think.

1220
01:06:54,359 --> 01:06:58,279
We're also excited about this, and I
go back to this open cloth thing, the.

1221
01:06:59,314 --> 01:07:04,654
The tsunami of YouTube videos
that are still out there telling

1222
01:07:04,654 --> 01:07:06,334
people to move ahead with this.

1223
01:07:06,824 --> 01:07:11,984
and just jump in and just do,
this is exasperating for me.

1224
01:07:12,384 --> 01:07:15,054
because they could, if they
were professionals and they're

1225
01:07:15,054 --> 01:07:16,314
the, and the ones exist.

1226
01:07:17,034 --> 01:07:19,344
People are talking about, Hey, I'm
gonna tell you about the risks.

1227
01:07:19,374 --> 01:07:20,784
I'm gonna tell you about
how you can do this.

1228
01:07:20,994 --> 01:07:23,964
We're gonna walk this through and
I'm gonna, and I'll explain that.

1229
01:07:24,264 --> 01:07:27,804
But the minute we get into the hype of
technology, especially in the consumer

1230
01:07:27,804 --> 01:07:34,974
space, all of that goes, it's our job
as professionals to help regulate that.

1231
01:07:35,024 --> 01:07:36,734
I don't know how else to explain it.

1232
01:07:38,399 --> 01:07:39,329
Yeah, absolutely.

1233
01:07:39,409 --> 01:07:41,179
everybody plays a part here.

1234
01:07:41,489 --> 01:07:45,239
whether you are a victim of a
scam, if you're a developer, if

1235
01:07:45,349 --> 01:07:46,759
how do you spread that information?

1236
01:07:46,759 --> 01:07:50,299
How do you help the, your peers
and everybody else gets safer.

1237
01:07:50,299 --> 01:07:53,029
So I think everybody wants to
do the right thing, at least

1238
01:07:53,029 --> 01:07:54,169
from a security point of view.

1239
01:07:54,439 --> 01:07:58,399
But there's a lot of vulnerabilities along
the way that'll come up unintentionally,

1240
01:07:58,399 --> 01:08:01,669
that we need to be aware of and be
cautious about as we build forward.

1241
01:08:03,004 --> 01:08:05,614
Yeah, and my intent with this
conversation was not to provide

1242
01:08:05,614 --> 01:08:09,394
everybody with all the answers, but
to at least start that conversation

1243
01:08:09,664 --> 01:08:11,104
and start them to think about it.

1244
01:08:11,104 --> 01:08:14,704
I love to hear back from any of our
listeners who've got information they

1245
01:08:14,704 --> 01:08:18,964
wanna share or ways in which they
think we should be tackling this.

1246
01:08:19,054 --> 01:08:19,114
We.

1247
01:08:19,249 --> 01:08:21,319
Whatever you've got to say,
I'm interested in hearing it.

1248
01:08:21,679 --> 01:08:27,079
We have the report and we'll make that
link available to you on the show notes.

1249
01:08:27,079 --> 01:08:30,349
You can find those@technewsday.ca or.com.

1250
01:08:30,469 --> 01:08:31,519
Either one, take your pick.

1251
01:08:31,669 --> 01:08:35,599
So that's tech newsday.ca.com
and we'll put that there.

1252
01:08:35,719 --> 01:08:39,259
We'll put it on the YouTube video as
well, and I'll put it address of Project

1253
01:08:39,259 --> 01:08:44,719
Shamrock and a link to Beth Highland's
book as well in case you wanna share that.

1254
01:08:45,394 --> 01:08:47,584
We just need to start the conversation.

1255
01:08:47,794 --> 01:08:49,264
We don't have to be perfect at it.

1256
01:08:49,544 --> 01:08:50,714
I guess is my message.

1257
01:08:50,774 --> 01:08:52,964
Abha, do you have a last
message for our audience?

1258
01:08:55,004 --> 01:09:00,094
No, just, ensure that you maintain
digital hygiene and, that's one

1259
01:09:00,094 --> 01:09:01,294
step in the right direction.

1260
01:09:02,704 --> 01:09:03,004
Great.

1261
01:09:03,274 --> 01:09:04,084
Thank you so much.

1262
01:09:04,084 --> 01:09:07,324
We've been grateful to have McAfee's
head of Threat Research, Abha

1263
01:09:07,534 --> 01:09:10,104
Karnik, and, welcome, to the show.

1264
01:09:10,104 --> 01:09:11,034
I hope to have you back.

1265
01:09:12,939 --> 01:09:13,449
Thank you, Jim.

1266
01:09:13,449 --> 01:09:14,409
It was wonderful talking to you.

1267
01:09:14,889 --> 01:09:15,399
Appreciate it.

1268
01:09:16,369 --> 01:09:17,839
And that's our show for today.

1269
01:09:18,109 --> 01:09:20,269
We'd like to thank Meter for
their support in bringing you.

1270
01:09:20,269 --> 01:09:24,499
The podcast Meter delivers a full
stack networking infrastructure,

1271
01:09:24,499 --> 01:09:28,639
wired, wireless, and cellular
to leading enterprises.

1272
01:09:28,939 --> 01:09:30,109
Working with their partners.

1273
01:09:30,109 --> 01:09:34,249
Meter designs, deploys and
manages everything required to

1274
01:09:34,249 --> 01:09:38,449
get performant, reliable, and
secure connectivity in a space.

1275
01:09:38,779 --> 01:09:43,399
They design the hardware, the
firmware, build the software, manage

1276
01:09:43,399 --> 01:09:45,739
deployments, and even run support.

1277
01:09:46,069 --> 01:09:50,029
It's a single integrated solution
that scales from branch offices

1278
01:09:50,239 --> 01:09:54,104
to warehouses to large campuses,
all the way to data centers.

1279
01:09:55,054 --> 01:09:58,114
Book a demo at meter.com/cst.

1280
01:09:58,504 --> 01:10:02,284
That's METE r.com/cst.

1281
01:10:03,394 --> 01:10:04,564
I'm your host, Jim Love.

1282
01:10:05,344 --> 01:10:06,304
Thanks for listening.