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Hello! Welcome to Adventures Through the Mind. This is a podcast that explores topics relevant

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and related to psychedelic culture, medicine, spirituality, and research, and always with the

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underlying inquiry of how we can work with and through our psychedelic experiences to become

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better people, not just for ourselves, but for all those with whom we are nested in relationship,

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presently and across time, human and non-human alike. I'm your host, as always, James W. Jesso,

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and today's guest is with Wade Richardson. Wade is the author of the book The Psychedelic Mind

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Meld, Telepathically Exploring Shared Consciousness, which came out in December of 2024. Now, I don't

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have a physical copy of it, so you probably see a picture of it on YouTube. I'll pretend to have it

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held up in my hands here, but I really enjoyed it. Initially, I was called to it for a couple of

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reasons, one of which is that in the sort of larger milieu of talking about psychedelics right now,

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there are some things that are very common, very easy, and effectively zero risk in talking about

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when it comes to psychedelics. And there are some things that go far enough out that it starts to

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get kind of questionable whether or not people will, you know, feel as though I'm either the

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legitimacy of psychedelics are being compromised or that person's legitimacy is being compromised.

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Basically, it asks bigger questions than the mainstream is ready to give simple answers to,

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or well, than the mainstream is ready to grapple with. I'm sure mainstream can give a very simple

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answer to the question of telepathically sharing psychedelic states. And the answer to that is,

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it's not real. But as you'll hear in this interview, and if you've already read the book,

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There's, and well, you know, okay, let me back up a second. If you are someone who has explored

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psychedelics for a long time, chances are you already know these things can happen. At least

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we can experience something akin to these things happening. I know I have. So when I saw this book,

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I thought to myself, wow, what an excellent opportunity to bring this sort of like more fringe

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aspect of the psychedelic discussion to the podcast here and sort of as a as a consequence

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into the discourse and i also thought to myself besides just being interested in it that i was

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pleasantly pleasantly uh maybe touched i was i was pleasantly uh jesus what's the word here

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engaged by the title of it for reasons that you probably know if you're a regular listener of the

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show. So you can probably assume given that Wade is now on the show today, that I really enjoyed

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the book and it felt like it offered something worth bringing to the podcast here. So that's

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what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk about psychedelic Mindmelds.

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This includes sort of, you know, what they are, what can happen within them, some of the utility

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they might have for us from healing trauma to spiritual experiences to sort of telepathic

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contact, right?

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So sharing explorations of psychedelic realms to making shared contact with other states

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of being of consciousness, super consciousness or other beings in other levels of reality

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to even relational intimacy, deepening relational trust and sexual pleasure, sexual ecstasy.

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And we also talk about what all of these things say about, you know, if these experiences are

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happening, what does this say about the nature of reality? What does this suggest about the nature

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of reality, about the nature of consciousness? Additionally, we're going to talk about some of

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the concerns, some of the harms that can come from this journey, this kind of journey work,

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some of the risks you run when you choose to go in like this, whether or not you're facilitating it,

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or if you're just with a friend or partner. These things include psychosis. They include

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a number of different things that we'll talk about in the interview. We explore them. We explore

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things like sexual transgressions or violations. And we also talk about it from a practical

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perspective, a little sort of touching on some advice about this work. And it is work. You'll

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see what we mean when we get into the interview of like the challenge that can come with accessing

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these kinds of states with each other, this sort of telepathic contact through psychedelic

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exploration. Now that's mostly it for the intro. I will mention to you that you will probably notice

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right away that Wade's voice sounds a little weird and that doesn't look like it's a video of him if

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you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify. And that's because Wade Richardson is a pseudonym

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and I have anonymized his voice and face in order to protect his identity. Now, if you don't think

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I did a good job with that, like if you feel like it's a little too hard to hear, I'd love that

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feedback so that I can maybe do, you know, have it be more clear in the future. But if you think I

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did a good job. I'd like that feedback too. So just as a heads up, that's going to be a part of

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your video or listening experience. And that's it. That's it for the intro. So without further ado,

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this is episode 199 of Adventures to the Mind with Wade Richardson exploring the psychedelic

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mindmeld. Enjoy.

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So

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Welcome to Adventures Through the Mind.

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Yeah, thanks. I'm really happy to be here and have a chance to talk to you, James.

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I'm also excited about it. You know, when I first, well, so there's a, there's an arc of how I came to your book.

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The first is that I saw the title. I can't remember where I saw it listed online. I was like, well, that seems interesting.

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put a little mental note, you know, like put it, tabled it in my mind sometime after that,

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I see some posts about it and I'm like, okay, this is great. Let's, let's, let's move into this.

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This sounds like a very interesting concept and also something that's not really talked about for

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a lot of reasons. One main reason being like the things that we're going to talk about today are

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pretty, you know, you could say beyond the sort of mainstream narrative, even just the general

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narrative of psychedelics predominantly today, but even to the point of at some points being

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outright transgressive to the sort of the structured sense that we have as a global

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civilization now, sort of like the dominant culture of the North and the West as to what

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reality is and what mind is and what consciousness is. And so on top of that, when I read your book,

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I really enjoyed it. I appreciated that it was a book that wasn't written for a general audience

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or people early to psychedelics while simultaneously containing a bunch of really

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great information for that group of people if they chose to read it. So I thought it was very

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well put together and I really appreciated it and I really appreciate you agreeing to come on the show.

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Thank you.

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I'd also like to say that I always get like an extra tinge of sort of like

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egoic gratification or maybe like the sense of being seen somehow when I stumble across somebody

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having cited my work in the book, which I came across when I was reading it. So thank you for

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that as well. Yeah, you're welcome. And I really appreciated your book and your insights as well,

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you know, in terms of, I think it's an important piece to basically bring in some deep psychology.

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And of course, Jung is a hero at this type of subject in terms of, you know, shadow work and

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what that looks like. And I think you did a really good job of capturing that in your book,

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Decomposing the Shadow. And yeah, how we work with mushrooms and that it is work. You know,

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this is not, I mean, of course, you know, psychedelics can be used recreationally.

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And there's a variety of other ways that they can be used. But if we really want to take a deep dive

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into consciousness and our own self and exploring ourselves, it's work and it's not easy work.

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Yeah, absolutely. And when it happens to be easy, oh, what a gift, you know, like so many times it's like, okay, I'm ready. I'm ready to do the deep stuff. Like I'm ready to face this. I'm ready to do all the stuff. And then all of a sudden it's like, no, this one's just going to be about joy and beauty and leaning in and crying tears of gratitude. Like, oh, thank you.

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Yeah. So your book has a lot of material. And I don't mean that in a way that it's like for the listeners, like, oh, shit, that's a lot. It's like it has a lot of really great information. It's structured extremely well to deliver that information in a way that is like ongoingly sort of, you know, back reference to the central thesis of like what you're exploring in the book, as well as progressively.

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So each section sort of nicely builds upon and sort of expands the work that you're presenting.

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And I doubt I'm going to, well, we're certainly not going to get all of that information in this interview.

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Plus that would take away from the exciting opportunity for listeners to eventually become readers.

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And I don't even know that it'll end up being as well structured as your book, but we'll see how it goes.

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And somewhat tongue in cheek, I'm going to start off with what I think is probably the most important question

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for the someone who wrote a book called the psychedelic mindmeld, which is,

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are you a star Trek fan? Oh yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And okay. I say that jokingly cause I love,

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I love star Trek. Uh, so any opportunity to get to bring it up, I do bring it up of course,

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for people who aren't savvy mindmeld is a, is the term that they use in star Trek to describe

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a certain technique from one of the sort of races, alien races, or I guess species, alien races they

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use in the show to talk about sharing one mind, two minds becoming one. And so with that, let's

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get into the first real question, which is, Wade, what is a psychedelic Mindmeld?

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Well, I mean, if we're going to start with Star Trek, we'll start there with the Vulcan Mindmeld,

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because that certainly was the inspiration for the title.

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And for those people who are familiar with Star Trek,

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there's been a number of times the Vulcan mindmeld has showed up

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across the different seasons and genres, if you want, of Star Trek.

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And what we witness when we see the Vulcan go in to do the mindmeld

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with whomever they're doing the work with,

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it's a complete sharing of consciousness

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where there's basically a psychic exchange that occurs in terms of viewing someone's past history,

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possibly past trauma, possibly future events.

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But there's also a physical exchange.

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And when we watch the Vulcan mindmeld in particular, it's an emotional exchange often.

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And it's like feeling into someone else's pain.

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I can't think of all the instances of the Vulcan mindmeld now, but there's probably some moments of joy which are certainly possible within the psychedelic mindmeld.

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But as you know, being human is very difficult.

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And it's just being in the human vessel is challenging.

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And most of what arises in the psychedelic mindmeld happens to be painful or related to suffering and trauma.

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But that exchange happens in the Vulcan mindmeld.

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So there is this physical exchange of emotion and, uh, you know, not unlike what, you know,

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empaths, uh, might experience without using psychedelics, just to kind of clarify that,

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you know, the telepathic space, uh, is something that, you know, goes beyond using psychedelics

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and, uh, shows up in a variety of other ways elsewhere.

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So I've, I've heard that there being a clear description or a clear, um, delineation between

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science fiction and science fantasy, where science fantasy is just making up all sorts of crazy stuff

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with scientific lingo. And then science fiction is attempting to use legitimate, possibly quite

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legitimate scientific ideals or concepts or premises, and then expanding upon them to create

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a kind of a fictional world. And, you know, in a lot of ways, the Vulcan mindmeld really has had

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a kind of an allure of science fantasy to it. Oh, it's nice, but it's, you know, tele telepathy.

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But what's interesting that you're speaking to, and it's something that I've had not intentional,

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like it didn't intentionally go in there, but I have, you know, incidentally had experiences

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during psychedelics where both myself and the person in the journey had the real clear sense

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that despite the fact that there wasn't any sort of, you know, real time active priming with what

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we were saying or doing, having had a sense of sharing mind, sharing consciousness, or,

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I mean, there's lots of ways to explain this away perhaps, but kind of seemingly

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inexplicable moments of like synchronicity with each other in what we were thinking,

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feeling, seeing, perceiving. And so it was very interesting for me to hear you go in such depth

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about these kinds of experiences and like taking it, you know, a little bit away from the sort of

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reference to Star Trek and more into the sort of the content of what might happen during an

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experience. And I want to, I want to ask you about the sort of the possible uses of this with respect

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to going through darkness and so on and so forth in a little bit, but I want to hear a bit more

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about like, what does this actually like look like? I don't mean that from the outside, although you

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could speak to that but from the inside what kind of things might transpire between people in this

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shared consciousness psychedelic Mindmeld right well there's a long list of things that can be

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shared but before we jump into that i'm kind of curious because um you know it's one of those

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things where i think what you're describing in terms of your experience with uh having telepathic

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connection that was non-intentional and, uh, you know, something that spontaneously arose,

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I think is the case for a number of people around the world to have done psychedelics,

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you know, say with friends or in groups, uh, or even in ceremony. Um, just to say that,

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you know, it is something that is not that unusual, uh, for, you know, the listeners out there who

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think this might be some kind of one-off thing. Um, and in saying that, I'm kind of curious to

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hear just a little bit more detail about the experience of what you had, uh, in terms of that

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telepathic connection, if you can be more specific. Oh, uh, I mean, if I were, I'd have to like kind

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of dust off a little bit of something here to go into too many specifics, but one that comes to mind,

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uh, right away is, um, an experience I had many years ago, not, not with a psychic, you know what,

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this was a little bit more of a reckless time in my life when this happened, but I was exploring

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some sort of something that was being sold online as like party something, you know, it was some sort

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of research chemical that we had no idea what it was, but it was, you know, getting sold online as

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fertilizer or something stupid like that. And me and a friend of mine and myself, we took this and

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laid there for what we didn't realize ended up being like multiple, multiple hours. And just

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mostly with our eyes closed and our heads touching, and then having in what we had realized in

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hindsight, because at least I have no conscious recognition of like us actually talking with each

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other, sort of opening our eyes, it's many hours later and realizing that for the course of that

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hour, we had just built this crazy story in our minds of like this epic journey that we went on.

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And when we started describing what we experienced, we realized we had just

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experienced the same epic journey with our eyes closed and not saying anything,

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lying there for, you know, a couple of hours, maybe more, but I assume it was about a couple

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of hours. And that being my first sort of like, holy shit, holy shit moment when it comes to like,

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What just happened there?

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And of course, at the time, I was a little bit more reckless.

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So I was just like, oh, that was wild.

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Cool.

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Let's go wander the city.

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Didn't really think too much about it after that, other than that being just a cool experience.

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But that would be one example of a sort of shared mind experience I've had.

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Yeah, well, that's certainly it.

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You know, and I think that's happened to a lot of people.

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And they don't really have a context to put it in.

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So they don't really think much more about it in terms of the implications of what these experiences mean.

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terms of you know where does consciousness reside and how are we you know capable of sharing

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consciousness um but maybe before yeah we drop into that going back to your question um yeah i mean

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like i said there's there's a long list of possibilities and um i'll try to keep this brief

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uh just kind of giving a bit of an overview and so we'll start out what you know physically it

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would look like and uh generally it's going to be two people lying side by side you know either

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on a comfortable floor setting or in a bed and holding hands.

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And just to clarify, like it's not necessary that people are touching each other to have

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telepathic connection.

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I mean, there's lots of examples of people sharing telepathically around the world in,

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you know, different countries or different locations.

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So just to be specific on it being a non-local phenomenon.

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But at the same time, what touch engenders is the possibility of dropping further in to what's happening physically with the person in terms of where their energetics are at.

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And it also creates a focus because, of course, as you know, working with psychedelics, it's easy that our mind wanders into different places in the trip.

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And by having that human touch, it's a reminder of I'm here to work with my partner to establish a telepathic connection and to drop deeper into shared consciousness.

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So that's what the physical piece is.

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What's interesting is that the telepathic connection in terms of the psychic sharing, and I want to distinguish between physical sharing and psychic sharing.

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They're overlapping, but they are kind of distinct.

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is that, funny enough, in terms of the physical piece,

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it can actually show up similar to the telepathic mindmelds

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or Vulcan mindmelds in Star Trek,

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where the hand reaches up to the other person's head

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and there's this kind of thing going on.

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That has actually happened to me on a handful of occasions,

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but it certainly isn't necessary.

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And when that happens, it's spontaneous.

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My hand is moving there beyond conscious choice.

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It's not like, oh, it's time to do the mindmeld and I'm going to stick my hand on this

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person's head.

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The body is moving beyond conscious choice.

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And so with that, I'll drop into the physical exchange that can occur.

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And I want to clarify that it's not unlike doing other forms of healing work.

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You know, like I've worked with an osteopath.

00:20:14.610 --> 00:20:19.400
I mean, she's more trained as a massage therapist, but, you know, through all of her work, she

00:20:19.560 --> 00:20:21.060
basically works as an osteopath.

00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:31.780
And this is not unusual for really good intuitive osteopaths where they can tap on someone's head or tap on a part of the body and just drop into the energetics of another person's body.

00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:39.080
Then to where there are energetic blockages and start doing various forms of massage work.

00:20:40.040 --> 00:20:43.300
And so this modality looks very similar to that.

00:20:43.340 --> 00:20:54.720
And in that case, it's not like the mind is consciously dropping in in terms of, you know, following a set pattern of like, I have to do this in order to kind of feel into these various things.

00:20:55.540 --> 00:21:05.880
It really is kind of intuitive feeling or sensing in where the energy is coming beyond the intellectual or, you know, ego rational mind.

00:21:07.360 --> 00:21:10.520
And it's like the bodies become tuning forks to each other.

00:21:11.080 --> 00:21:23.580
And there are certain resonances, again, which speak to blockages often associated with trauma, but also, you know, the challenges that the ego creates for itself in terms of, you know, navigating reality.

00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:30.720
And when I say that, uh, I'm referring to, you know, the stresses, um, you know, people

00:21:30.930 --> 00:21:31.780
being really neurotic.

00:21:31.980 --> 00:21:36.320
And of course there are chemicals that are associated, uh, with these states of, of mind

00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:40.900
in terms of, you know, influencing adrenaline and those various types of chemicals that

00:21:41.040 --> 00:21:43.620
then get stuck in the body and cause us problems.

00:21:44.800 --> 00:21:49.400
So again, at the physical level, what can happen is that like tuning forks, one body

00:21:49.430 --> 00:21:52.060
will tune into another or both at the same time.

00:21:53.040 --> 00:22:08.020
And yeah, the body spontaneously begins to move and drop in and physically massaging out these blockages, which can often be very painful and very deep in terms of the work, not unlike rolfing.

00:22:09.080 --> 00:22:10.220
So there is that element.

00:22:10.340 --> 00:22:22.520
And what's interesting is that while doing that type of work, and it's not necessary that this happens either, it is possible for the psychic connection to drop in too, where there's a possible sharing of consciousness.

00:22:24.260 --> 00:22:29.640
and just to give you an example it's like okay so now my body's dropping in starting to massage

00:22:30.040 --> 00:22:37.900
someone and i may actually feel into the trauma that's being released and i may actually see a

00:22:38.020 --> 00:22:45.300
visual that i may actually relive the trauma and so for an example my wife and i were in a really

00:22:45.580 --> 00:22:52.100
severe accident uh years ago and she suffered a leg injury so we're doing a session together and i

00:22:52.100 --> 00:22:59.640
drop in and, uh, I'm attracted to where her injury is in her leg and I'm lightly massaging it. Cause

00:22:59.700 --> 00:23:05.160
it's actually, you know, still even, you know, many, many months later, it's still, you know,

00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:11.860
fairly damaged and not wanting a deep massage. So that's also interesting too, that, you know,

00:23:11.900 --> 00:23:18.559
my body's intuiting not to go too deep into the injury, but I go in and all of a sudden the next

00:23:18.580 --> 00:23:26.340
thing, my whole field of vision turns black and I'm just screaming at the top of my lungs. And now

00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:32.680
I'm actually reliving her experience of the accident and the trauma associated with that,

00:23:33.560 --> 00:23:39.880
even though I'm not visually seeing the accident. And then that blackness, so to speak, kind of

00:23:40.040 --> 00:23:47.499
dissipates and my field of vision returns to the room and to, you know, her. And what's interesting

00:23:47.520 --> 00:23:52.620
is that both of us actually see this black smoke leave her leg.

00:23:53.100 --> 00:23:56.100
Now, I'm sure, you know, in terms of material reality,

00:23:57.040 --> 00:23:59.440
the default reality, there wasn't actually smoke,

00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:04.600
but at some ethereal level, we'll say,

00:24:05.540 --> 00:24:08.900
there was this release of something within her

00:24:09.320 --> 00:24:11.120
and related to this trauma.

00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:14.660
We later joked about, you know, it being a form of exorcism.

00:24:16.740 --> 00:24:19.400
So yeah, that, that's, you know, dropping in at that level.

00:24:19.950 --> 00:24:24.180
I have in other cases dropped into people's traumas where I've actually seen, you know,

00:24:24.570 --> 00:24:30.860
uh, with one person I was working with, for example, uh, a police action in England that

00:24:30.980 --> 00:24:32.980
he was unfortunately a victim of.

00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:40.540
And yeah, I saw him in this stadium, uh, you know, a soccer match and all of what was

00:24:40.540 --> 00:24:47.460
happening there and the horrors of that, which also led to screaming and, and yeah, just again,

00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:49.920
working through the release of that.

00:24:50.920 --> 00:24:56.400
Um, and while in that space, it's sometimes possible that I'll end up seeing, you know,

00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:01.320
this is kind of strange too, but like with an x-ray vision into the other person's body.

00:25:02.580 --> 00:25:08.620
So working with the same person, I saw into his lungs and, uh, saw how polluted they were,

00:25:08.740 --> 00:25:14.760
you know, as a result of smoking both tobacco and marijuana for, well, basically decades,

00:25:15.180 --> 00:25:21.220
and that he had damaged his lungs severely. And so, you know, all of these things are possible.

00:25:21.400 --> 00:25:24.980
And then, of course, in the terms of the shared consciousness, if we want to kind of step into,

00:25:25.860 --> 00:25:30.520
you know, a deeper level. Well, let's take a pause there. Just hang there for a second,

00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:34.999
because I do want to go to this deeper level. But, you know, what you had just said about sharing

00:25:35.220 --> 00:25:40.940
psychically brought up another story of an experience I had totally without psychedelics.

00:25:41.740 --> 00:25:45.520
And I don't know, I feel like I'm maybe about to reveal myself as being a lot more

00:25:46.220 --> 00:25:49.760
what other people might describe as woo than I normally present myself.

00:25:50.580 --> 00:25:55.840
I have a friend of mine who says like, look, I'm not woo woo, but I'm one woo, absolutely one woo.

00:25:57.400 --> 00:26:04.440
And I spent a few years training with a Reiki master to become a Reiki master and teacher.

00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:11.460
for a while, I actually did Reiki as like a service. And I have a number of memories,

00:26:11.660 --> 00:26:15.500
but one in particular comes up where I was working with someone. It was always hands off and just

00:26:15.550 --> 00:26:19.860
like following where the hands needed to go and so on and so forth. And then paying attention to

00:26:19.860 --> 00:26:27.000
what came up in my own mind and coming out and being like, hey, so when I was like working over,

00:26:27.420 --> 00:26:32.599
you know, these areas, I had this sort of image come to mind and I described this kind of dynamic

00:26:32.600 --> 00:26:37.640
image, these things that were happening in my mind. And so like, does that mean anything to you?

00:26:37.710 --> 00:26:43.960
And then immediately start crying and then reveal to me that what I just said spoke directly to this

00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:48.580
issue they had been facing with a family member, which I knew nothing about at all. I didn't even

00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:54.640
know this person. And that, I mean, the way I understood it at the time was like, oh yeah,

00:26:54.990 --> 00:27:00.619
I was tapped into their energy field, to their sort of experience. And it was being filtered

00:27:00.620 --> 00:27:06.680
through my own. It was being filtered through my own lens, but I was detecting something and what

00:27:06.800 --> 00:27:11.180
sort of affirmed that it wasn't just my own mind, that my own mind might've been creating what it

00:27:11.360 --> 00:27:16.800
looked like, but I was tapping into something beyond myself was the response. And I'll, you know,

00:27:16.900 --> 00:27:21.180
I'll ask you a more sort of, you know, quote unquote critical question in a bit, and I'm sure

00:27:21.180 --> 00:27:25.459
I could try to explain this away, but instead I will just say like, that was another example of

00:27:25.480 --> 00:27:32.860
sort of for me one of many at that time of sharing kind of like a psychic a psychic level of shared

00:27:33.020 --> 00:27:38.400
consciousness yeah no absolutely and you know that's my point and what i was saying earlier

00:27:38.540 --> 00:27:44.720
that psychedelics are not necessary to do this type of work although i think because they are

00:27:44.860 --> 00:27:50.159
such powerful amplifiers they amplify the work and they can take us farther than probably most people

00:27:50.180 --> 00:27:52.580
could ever go without psychedelics.

00:27:53.650 --> 00:27:59.680
Because as you're describing those stories, I think energetic healers like yourself working

00:27:59.840 --> 00:28:05.900
with Reiki, but also, again, this osteopath person that I've worked with, she described

00:28:05.900 --> 00:28:10.600
a number of, because we've talked about the book, and she's described a number of cases

00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:16.020
similar to yours where she would be working on someone and she would begin to see things

00:28:16.300 --> 00:28:19.640
about the person and then mention that to the client afterwards.

00:28:19.980 --> 00:28:27.360
And yeah, each time they were real hits in terms of, you know, someone who had had a negative impact, usually a negative impact on the person's life.

00:28:28.900 --> 00:28:30.920
So that, yeah, that's definitely a thing.

00:28:31.600 --> 00:28:40.520
And again, well, just quickly, it really speaks to our porosity and how consciousness, yeah, is not just centered in the brain.

00:28:40.620 --> 00:28:45.080
And it is kind of in the ether, so to speak, and that we can all connect and move through it.

00:28:46.120 --> 00:29:03.820
And one thing I really want to highlight is, and this is something that was just introduced to me recently, was the Telepathy Tapes, which is a podcast that speaks to nonverbal autistic children, which are constantly in telepathic states.

00:29:04.560 --> 00:29:11.920
And, you know, they've run a number of tests over the years, and they're scoring 100% on these tests.

00:29:12.080 --> 00:29:16.840
I mean, this is telepathy tests that go beyond anything else that has been done before.

00:29:16.930 --> 00:29:23.060
And it happens that, you know, telepathy is one of the most studied phenomena in the scientific world.

00:29:23.280 --> 00:29:24.640
Funny enough, a lot of people don't know that.

00:29:25.080 --> 00:29:25.240
Interesting.

00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:33.260
But if you get into Dean Radden's work, you can see that there are millions and millions of data points that stretch well over 100 years on telepathy.

00:29:34.040 --> 00:29:38.280
But all I have to say is, you know, with my point is that, yeah, psychedelics are not necessary.

00:29:39.140 --> 00:29:48.460
People can take a very deep dive like these nonverbal autistic children and adults where they're in constant telepathic connection.

00:29:49.500 --> 00:29:56.760
But again, for those of us who are not connected in that way, psychedelics are a really useful tool to explore consciousness and this phenomenon.

00:29:58.020 --> 00:30:04.700
And my sense is that if you start asking people, it's a pretty weird thing to ask.

00:30:04.940 --> 00:30:06.800
Like, have you ever had like a telepathic experience?

00:30:07.050 --> 00:30:12.340
And depending on who you ask or where you ask it, you might get some strange looks or some

00:30:12.840 --> 00:30:16.780
sort of like social clap back in some way or another.

00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:24.160
But I think when we start asking people about these things or sharing experiences, I imagine

00:30:24.300 --> 00:30:26.260
like a lot of people are going to be like, you know what?

00:30:26.420 --> 00:30:28.100
And then they have an experience too.

00:30:28.700 --> 00:30:32.660
I know this happened and I'll ask you a little bit later about disincarnate entities.

00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:51.940
But at some point in my sort of, I don't know, I had an instance where I was like really grappling with the, you know, the reality or unreality of disincarnate entities and started asking around to people whose perspective I trusted, who hadn't really ever spoken to me about it, yes or no.

00:30:52.460 --> 00:31:14.200
And every single person I talked to was like, well, actually, yeah. They all kind of had like experience. Excuse me. Well, some people I asked, they're like, I have no idea what you're talking about. But a lot of people that I asked were like, yeah, actually, you know, there's this, this and this and these instances. And this is what I sort of generally believe, but they just don't talk about it because it's a weird thing to bring up.

00:31:14.420 --> 00:31:30.440
And I think this kind of telepathic mindmeld experiences, psychedelic and otherwise, might be one of those things. Psychedelics being one of the few places I think where you could actually talk about it and people won't be like, what's wrong with you? They'll be like, oh, that sounds like a trip or something, you know?

00:31:31.420 --> 00:31:39.280
Yeah, well, it's interesting because with the telepathy tapes, you know, there's quite a few hours of interviews and, you know, scientific study behind them.

00:31:39.840 --> 00:31:48.000
But one thing that does come up repeatedly is how there is this societal distancing from the phenomenon.

00:31:48.520 --> 00:31:51.160
And there's a lot of negative attitudes out there.

00:31:51.260 --> 00:32:14.340
And so, you know, you would have parents who would be telepathically connected to their children and even teachers that would be telepathically connected who would then bring the subject up only to find out that they would, you know, be turned into a pariah and, you know, basically outcast and treated terribly because they even suggested the possibility of it, which is just horrible.

00:32:14.500 --> 00:32:27.500
So, you know, in writing the book, it was kind of, it's one of the reasons I wrote it was just to normalize and validate the experience of those out there who are also having these experiences and also to, you know, offer a framework.

00:32:28.380 --> 00:32:35.180
Obviously, it's a rough framework because there's a lot, you know, in terms of consciousness we don't understand, but, and a lot of mystery around that.

00:32:35.210 --> 00:32:42.920
But, you know, a rough framework to help people begin to understand what's happening and normalize it so it's not so strange and alien to us.

00:32:44.380 --> 00:32:49.720
you were about to go into another another aspect that could arise in the mindmelds

00:32:49.980 --> 00:32:53.760
you had talked about physical you talked about psychic and i feel you were about to go into

00:32:53.900 --> 00:32:59.920
somewhere else can we go can we go there now yeah yeah so shared consciousness and so you know this

00:33:00.540 --> 00:33:05.600
is kind of that i guess you know one of the higher levels of what's possible with the mind

00:33:05.800 --> 00:33:11.259
where you know both people are fully communicating and aware of each other in the psychic space

00:33:11.260 --> 00:33:15.760
and can possibly journey to other realms, you know?

00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:18.580
So I've done this most often with my wife,

00:33:19.300 --> 00:33:20.520
which is kind of interesting.

00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:23.460
She was someone who, as a teenager,

00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:26.500
made the mistake of, you know, taking psychedelics

00:33:27.080 --> 00:33:29.620
at the behest of this boy who was, you know, she was into.

00:33:30.270 --> 00:33:32.660
And they went to like a roller coaster park

00:33:32.980 --> 00:33:34.760
and she never even got on a ride,

00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:38.100
but had one of the most horrific, you know, events of her life.

00:33:38.860 --> 00:33:39.740
Unfortunately common.

00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:40.880
Unfortunately common.

00:33:41.120 --> 00:33:41.560
Yeah, right.

00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:43.520
Yeah, it is unfortunately common.

00:33:43.700 --> 00:33:45.340
So never wanted to do psychedelics again.

00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:51.160
And then she met me and there's, you know, lots of stories in terms of how she eventually dropped in.

00:33:51.220 --> 00:33:57.380
But when she did actually the very first time, you know, we took mushrooms together, laid down on the bed together.

00:33:59.040 --> 00:34:05.460
We're journeying, you know, she just totally dropped into the psychedelic Mindmeld, you know, naturally if you want.

00:34:06.980 --> 00:34:09.419
And yeah, you know, like we've had these different journeys.

00:34:09.800 --> 00:34:16.780
And, you know, I opened the book with the one where one of our very first journeys was journeying to a fractal version of Japan.

00:34:17.860 --> 00:34:20.520
You know, and this may be, you know, past life stuff together.

00:34:20.700 --> 00:34:22.360
It's always hard to be certain of these things.

00:34:22.600 --> 00:34:28.899
But we found ourselves in this ancient tea house drinking tea together.

00:34:29.409 --> 00:34:30.720
And it was, you know, clearly Japan.

00:34:30.909 --> 00:34:33.780
We're wearing kimonos and everybody around us is Japanese.

00:34:35.580 --> 00:34:37.540
And it was awesome, you know.

00:34:37.659 --> 00:34:42.200
And it's just like, wow, who would have ever guessed that was possible, right?

00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:48.760
In your book, you mentioned something about super consciousness, like shared super consciousness

00:34:49.120 --> 00:34:49.200
experience.

00:34:49.399 --> 00:34:50.460
What does this mean?

00:34:52.220 --> 00:34:56.179
Well, I would, yeah, certainly with super consciousness, this would be an example of

00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:58.500
journeying into other realms or dimensions.

00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:04.420
And, you know, so if we want to think of super consciousness, you know, it's one of these

00:35:04.420 --> 00:35:08.340
things where it's a difficult thing to kind of play with words because we have overlapping

00:35:08.680 --> 00:35:11.440
phenomenon and how they're described in language.

00:35:12.370 --> 00:35:14.800
Sometimes they're a bit distinct from each other.

00:35:16.210 --> 00:35:20.640
But, you know, there's super consciousness is kind of a broad category that, you know,

00:35:20.650 --> 00:35:25.820
I think is inclusive of, say, the collective unconscious that Carl Jung describes, you

00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:33.580
know, where we find the underlying, you know, history and, you know, present, future.

00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:40.800
of humanity and all of their experiences and the archetypes that are underlying the symbols that

00:35:40.980 --> 00:35:48.500
underline our existence as humans. Basically, you know, a realm that in a sense creates

00:35:49.520 --> 00:35:56.900
the material world. So I would say that that is, you know, a layer of super consciousness,

00:35:57.120 --> 00:36:02.580
you know, the Akashic Record, you know, made popular by the theosophists, but, you know,

00:36:02.720 --> 00:36:11.520
going back to Hindu scriptures, this idea that all events for all of living beings,

00:36:12.040 --> 00:36:17.620
sentient beings throughout the universe, both past, present, and future,

00:36:17.790 --> 00:36:22.320
are located in the Akashic Records, which we can then, as humans, access.

00:36:22.990 --> 00:36:28.140
So which means that I can access the past lives of various other people,

00:36:28.230 --> 00:36:30.280
whether it's connected to my soul or not.

00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:40.800
That means that I can connect to, you know, large archetypal phenomena like genocide, which I have done.

00:36:42.560 --> 00:36:57.240
And, you know, whether that's people who suffered in Rwanda, the Jews in the Holocaust, you know, what happened in Cambodia with the Khmer Rouge, you know, there's this underlying archetype.

00:36:57.440 --> 00:37:02.720
And humans are very connected to it because genocide is not unique to any one people.

00:37:02.980 --> 00:37:05.520
It's something that has occurred throughout history.

00:37:05.650 --> 00:37:10.340
Even the Catholic Church, of course, has been involved in committing genocide, you know,

00:37:10.620 --> 00:37:15.780
back in the Middle Ages when they went after the Cathars and went into villages and wiped

00:37:15.790 --> 00:37:18.400
out whole everybody, you know, women, children.

00:37:19.490 --> 00:37:24.720
And the Pope, of course, this weird story, a general came to him and he's like, well,

00:37:24.780 --> 00:37:27.000
there are Catholics in this, you know, in these towns.

00:37:27.240 --> 00:37:29.160
And he's like, well, if they're Catholics, it's okay.

00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:29.800
They'll go to heaven.

00:37:30.040 --> 00:37:31.360
So it's okay if you kill them, you know?

00:37:31.460 --> 00:37:33.260
So that's how weird this stuff gets, right?

00:37:34.740 --> 00:37:36.480
And, uh, yeah.

00:37:36.660 --> 00:37:39.680
So that's, you know, those are just some examples of what's out there.

00:37:41.320 --> 00:37:43.420
So, of course, I cover, go ahead.

00:37:44.700 --> 00:37:48.000
Well, I was just going to say, I cover, you know, more examples in the book.

00:37:48.620 --> 00:37:48.880
Definitely.

00:37:49.140 --> 00:37:49.220
Yeah.

00:37:49.420 --> 00:37:52.520
And in a, in a well-structured and progressive way, as mentioned earlier.

00:37:53.160 --> 00:37:58.280
Um, so, I mean, you kind of just, you kind of just spoke to it slash around it.

00:37:58.300 --> 00:38:01.880
So I might be asking you to repeat yourself, but maybe in a more directed way, which is,

00:38:02.370 --> 00:38:06.740
you know, like, how do you, how do you like personally, right?

00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:10.480
You know, how do you explain this phenomenon that this happens?

00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:16.300
Like, I guess a sort of a sister question to that, and you can either blend them or answer

00:38:16.330 --> 00:38:21.039
them separately or either doesn't matter, which is like essentially what these experiences

00:38:21.060 --> 00:38:26.740
maybe reveal about personal consciousness, reality in general. But how do you personally,

00:38:27.540 --> 00:38:34.200
how do you explain this phenomenon from the perspective of what is existence, what is reality,

00:38:34.270 --> 00:38:39.840
what is consciousness such that these kinds of shared telepathic mindmeld connections are

00:38:40.120 --> 00:38:46.600
possible? Yeah, well, I definitely drop into that consciousness is pervasive throughout the universe,

00:38:46.940 --> 00:38:49.600
But basically, the universe is made of consciousness.

00:38:49.810 --> 00:38:56.700
And if we want to, you know, dare to throw the word God in there, because of course, everybody has their own idea of what God is.

00:38:56.800 --> 00:38:57.840
There's a lot of baggage in there.

00:38:57.910 --> 00:39:04.640
But that God is all pervasive and that consciousness is God and that we are all of it.

00:39:04.740 --> 00:39:09.220
You know, in a sense, this idea of unity consciousness and that we are all part of it.

00:39:09.220 --> 00:39:10.400
We are all interconnected.

00:39:11.420 --> 00:39:17.120
And it is that interconnection which allows these types of things to occur.

00:39:18.500 --> 00:39:20.380
So you are me.

00:39:20.660 --> 00:39:21.300
I am you.

00:39:21.300 --> 00:39:31.080
And that's where I drop into talking about non-dual experiences in the book and that there are these tiered levels of non-dual experience.

00:39:32.700 --> 00:39:45.280
So at its simplest level, I mean, as we start to break down the barriers of, you know, selfhood or, you know, being an individual, we reach in at an empathic level, as we've been talking about already, into the experience of another person.

00:39:45.320 --> 00:39:48.520
And, you know, maybe I'm feeling into what emotion someone else is feeling.

00:39:49.480 --> 00:39:52.600
And, you know, there's lots of empaths in the world that can, of course, relate to that.

00:39:53.720 --> 00:39:58.320
As we move further, we reach into, you know, feeling into the energetic blockages.

00:39:58.700 --> 00:40:00.900
That's another non-dual aspect.

00:40:01.640 --> 00:40:05.760
And then we jump into shared consciousness and journeying together.

00:40:06.100 --> 00:40:08.560
That's becoming even more non-dual on this continuum.

00:40:10.180 --> 00:40:18.840
And then at a certain point, it's possible to drop into a non-dual layer where I'm aware of the material realm.

00:40:19.200 --> 00:40:21.720
And let's say that you and I are doing a session together.

00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:24.060
And I look at you, and you are me.

00:40:24.240 --> 00:40:29.600
There is no separation, even though I'm aware that there is a material existence.

00:40:30.680 --> 00:40:34.340
But I feel and my experience is that I'm all of it.

00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:45.400
And then to kind of drop into the final stage is to just completely drop the material realm altogether, which can also happen in the mind mill.

00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:50.260
But of course, at this point, you don't know if there's anybody else there because there is nobody else there.

00:40:50.460 --> 00:40:51.460
Everything is one.

00:40:52.280 --> 00:41:01.360
And the only way that you can kind of confirm that you were in that space together is after the fact where it's like, yeah, I dropped into the non-dual, lost all track of material existence.

00:41:02.240 --> 00:41:08.640
The ego is completely dissolved where there's no conversation or dialogue in my mind anywhere anymore.

00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:17.100
And it's just absolute pure awareness where you, it's kind of strange to say, but you actually do experience just being God.

00:41:17.420 --> 00:41:18.800
It's like the Godhead.

00:41:19.040 --> 00:41:19.520
It's absolute.

00:41:21.080 --> 00:41:22.840
And, uh, and that's, yeah.

00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:27.860
So in that context, I really see the phenomena as, you know, we are human beings.

00:41:28.360 --> 00:41:36.220
Um, if you want, uh, individuals with our kind of own unique fingerprint on the infinite

00:41:36.500 --> 00:41:40.440
hand of God and that we're all connected ultimately to the Godhead.

00:41:40.540 --> 00:41:44.280
And it's like, it's kind of like one finger, you know, touching and holding another and,

00:41:44.460 --> 00:41:47.260
but it's all the same body and reaching into each other.

00:41:49.380 --> 00:42:01.380
It makes me think of a meme or like a single frame comic I saw, which was a person standing on a cliff and there's a hand about ready to flick the person off the cliff.

00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:04.380
And then there's a hand on the other side of the cliff to catch it.

00:42:05.180 --> 00:42:07.760
And it's like the hand flicking is God.

00:42:08.200 --> 00:42:09.200
The person is God.

00:42:09.520 --> 00:42:12.120
The sun is God and the hand catching is also God.

00:42:14.160 --> 00:42:17.700
I guess that is kind of like a non-dual little comic there.

00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:34.360
But that, I mean, I find that way of looking at the world actually, or the way that I understand myself in the world, that's kind of, it's pretty close. It's pretty close. And this is something you speak to, I think, pretty well in the book.

00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:55.320
There's a certain level of like conscious ambivalence that is kind of necessary when it comes to whatever stories or models or ideas we have about what is or isn't the case or what did or didn't happen or what is or isn't real, especially coming out of psychedelic experiences.

00:42:55.940 --> 00:43:09.360
And so with that in mind, I'm going to ask you a question, which I think, I think is a, to me, if I would ask this question, I'd be like, damn, this is a hard question. I don't know how to answer it. So, you know, like, no problems if you're not, if you're not into it. But the question is essentially this.

00:43:11.140 --> 00:43:15.960
If you were to steel man yourself, your own perspective, and the steel man is like the

00:43:16.200 --> 00:43:22.340
opposite of a straw man. A straw man is where you create a really floppy, shitty argument that the

00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:27.620
person isn't saying, and then you argue with them as if that's what they're saying. If you steel man

00:43:27.720 --> 00:43:33.560
yourself where you like make the best possible argument, your own argument and say like, okay,

00:43:33.700 --> 00:43:38.539
I'm going to recognize how great this perspective is. It's all logical and rational. And then debate

00:43:38.540 --> 00:43:44.880
that what is your best argument against the validity of there being a shared telepathic

00:43:45.160 --> 00:43:49.680
experience like do you have any sort of ways in which you go yeah but it could also be

00:43:50.520 --> 00:43:58.820
and and what is that and why well yeah it's interesting you know i would say that it's

00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:04.379
kind of difficult to come up with much of an argument in terms of the shared telepathy especially

00:44:04.860 --> 00:44:10.360
if you go into it without any intent, like you're not trying to create something in advance,

00:44:11.100 --> 00:44:11.200
right?

00:44:11.400 --> 00:44:14.580
So, you know, because it's one of those things, if we plant something in the subconscious,

00:44:15.400 --> 00:44:19.120
we might manifest that in conscious experience dropping into the mind belt.

00:44:20.520 --> 00:44:26.020
So let's say that we drop in and with no agenda, and that's, you know, I'd recommend in the

00:44:26.120 --> 00:44:26.220
book.

00:44:26.220 --> 00:44:30.739
I think, you know, after you've done this for long enough, you can start to play with being

00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:37.420
more, I guess, I don't know, centered around playing with little things in terms of trying

00:44:37.420 --> 00:44:38.680
to manifest specific things.

00:44:39.600 --> 00:44:42.180
But generally, let's say, you know, we're trying to take a scientific approach.

00:44:43.020 --> 00:44:44.180
So we go on no agenda.

00:44:45.400 --> 00:44:49.220
And, you know, from the ultimate science perspective, you wouldn't even know each other.

00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:49.940
You've just been introduced.

00:44:50.100 --> 00:44:51.220
You take psychedelics together.

00:44:52.140 --> 00:44:53.240
You have the experience.

00:44:53.600 --> 00:44:54.200
You're not talking.

00:44:54.300 --> 00:44:58.740
You could even have an observer ensuring that, you know, nothing is being said.

00:44:59.900 --> 00:45:07.020
And then afterwards, you write down all of the journey and you look for what has overlapped.

00:45:07.460 --> 00:45:12.700
And often things are so specific that it's like, you know, in my mind, very conclusive.

00:45:13.859 --> 00:45:17.100
And certainly that's what we're seeing with the telepathy tapes I mentioned earlier.

00:45:17.420 --> 00:45:23.900
There's no denying, based on the scientific methodology that they're using, that this is a phenomenon.

00:45:24.900 --> 00:45:39.140
Now, I think where it starts to get a lot more blurry, you know, playing with the steelman idea, is when we enter realms where we're meeting entities or, you know, discarnate beings or spirits, souls, whatever you want to call them.

00:45:39.940 --> 00:45:42.720
And then at what point is that a real phenomenon?

00:45:43.250 --> 00:45:44.860
And what is the nature of that phenomenon?

00:45:44.970 --> 00:45:47.780
I think there's a whole bunch of possibilities there.

00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:57.500
And just to give you a sense of that, and let me just also say that it's also hard to say that it's not at all a thing.

00:45:57.990 --> 00:46:04.520
Because when two people, again, without an agenda, this would be something that happened just recently with my wife and I,

00:46:06.660 --> 00:46:09.740
we're doing a session together, starting to drop in telepathically.

00:46:10.460 --> 00:46:15.920
And my father, who passed some time ago, shows up for both of us.

00:46:17.320 --> 00:46:22.240
You know, and it's kind of one of those things where, you know, my wife was not connected to my father at all.

00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:23.480
She only met him a few times.

00:46:23.530 --> 00:46:24.400
We live in different cities.

00:46:25.100 --> 00:46:32.220
And, uh, and yet both of us, and at the very same time he shows up for both of us.

00:46:32.380 --> 00:46:35.060
So it's one of those things where, you know, we didn't invite him in.

00:46:35.900 --> 00:46:46.000
We were both happy that he showed up and he showed up with this amazing loving bliss, which, you know, is all about a full reconciliation, which I described my challenges a little bit in the book with my father.

00:46:46.840 --> 00:46:52.060
Um, but it's kind of strange how so many of them have been resolved after he's passed away.

00:46:52.280 --> 00:46:53.720
That's just his own story.

00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:58.300
But the point being is that, yeah, I mean, you know, there, there are these interactions.

00:46:59.300 --> 00:47:05.380
Um, and there's a certain energy that my father had that, you know, I completely relate to.

00:47:05.600 --> 00:47:10.940
And that was my father, even though we didn't visually see him, it was an energy that showed up.

00:47:11.600 --> 00:47:17.780
And yet, you know, and again, what's also interesting is that discarnate beings are always communicating telepathically.

00:47:18.840 --> 00:47:22.740
So that's another thing that I think that's important to highlight is that that is a phenomenon itself.

00:47:23.600 --> 00:47:34.100
Now, again, where I was going in terms of the complexity of this, especially when doing the work alone, you know, we can drop into, you know, the unconscious dream state.

00:47:34.240 --> 00:47:39.580
And we have these characters that show up, you know, for keeping track of our dreams, which with a little bit of effort, it's not that hard to do.

00:47:40.740 --> 00:47:43.360
And, uh, well, who, who are these dream characters?

00:47:43.530 --> 00:47:48.460
Are they real beings that are showing up in our dreams or are they just a projection of

00:47:48.620 --> 00:47:49.760
our unconscious minds?

00:47:51.419 --> 00:47:53.480
And I don't, I don't have a good answer for that.

00:47:53.540 --> 00:47:55.360
I don't know the answer to that.

00:47:55.430 --> 00:47:56.860
You know, it's, it's one of those things.

00:47:57.190 --> 00:47:58.520
It could be one, it could be the other.

00:47:59.459 --> 00:48:05.220
Another possibility is that when we're eating various, uh, discarnate beings, and I mentioned

00:48:05.230 --> 00:48:10.700
the one, you know, like with King David in the book, um, that that's something for whatever

00:48:10.720 --> 00:48:15.360
come up a lot for me and it's like, okay, so I have this encounter.

00:48:17.820 --> 00:48:19.400
I'm going to list off a bunch of possibilities.

00:48:19.620 --> 00:48:26.220
One is, um, and probably the least likely one, I was actually King David, you know,

00:48:26.380 --> 00:48:31.120
so I'm actually reliving a past life experience and, you know, I could create a long story

00:48:31.340 --> 00:48:35.140
about that and I've come with a big mission to do something on the planet now.

00:48:35.300 --> 00:48:36.740
And I I'm up there.

00:48:36.810 --> 00:48:38.720
Like I, that's just one possibility.

00:48:40.420 --> 00:49:01.040
Another possibility, and this speaks to what we were talking about earlier about, you know, the collective unconscious, unity consciousness, is that we can drop into the lifetime of anybody who has lived in the past, and I would argue even into the future, and I connected to his energy as it was lived, you know, over a couple thousand years ago.

00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:02.980
That's another possibility.

00:49:03.440 --> 00:49:09.120
Another possibility is that, you know, David is associated with an archetypal story.

00:49:09.240 --> 00:49:11.860
You know, there's the David and Goliath stuff and there's various other things.

00:49:12.820 --> 00:49:19.900
And without going into detail, but it's possible that I'm resonating at an archetypal level with part of his story.

00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:21.800
That is also part of my story.

00:49:21.960 --> 00:49:23.140
And that's what the connection is.

00:49:23.220 --> 00:49:29.500
So there's something for me to learn about what is happening in my own life as it relates to archetypes.

00:49:30.440 --> 00:49:41.480
Now, another possibility is that, you know, I am somehow connected to the energetics of a David, you know, internally.

00:49:41.660 --> 00:49:43.660
So it's actually not David who is showing up.

00:49:44.140 --> 00:49:45.080
It's some other being.

00:49:46.040 --> 00:49:50.960
But that being, in terms of the energy that they represent, is showing up as David.

00:49:51.120 --> 00:49:52.240
Now, two things are possible.

00:49:52.420 --> 00:50:04.500
One is that it's a projection that I am placing as an avatar on the other being because of how I'm relating to the other being based on having a Christian heritage and having read the Bible.

00:50:06.180 --> 00:50:16.620
Another possibility is that the being is actually reading into me to see what most will resonate with me and what I'm most comfortable with, and is actually wearing purposely the avatar of King David.

00:50:18.100 --> 00:50:22.860
So all of these things are possible for everybody out there who's having these experiences.

00:50:22.960 --> 00:50:28.000
And I also think that, you know, if we want to play with archetype, but there's also the trickster out there, you know?

00:50:28.140 --> 00:50:37.380
And so who's to say that there's not some trickster out there playing this little game of like, oh, let's just play with Wade's mind just for some fun, you know?

00:50:38.200 --> 00:50:43.960
So, and that's why I really highlight in the book, not taking anything too seriously.

00:50:44.320 --> 00:50:47.540
It's not, you know, oh, yeah, this happened to me, and now, you know, in my psychedelic experience,

00:50:47.660 --> 00:50:49.900
and I would say this is also something that can happen in life.

00:50:50.580 --> 00:50:51.780
Now all of a sudden I have a mission.

00:50:53.140 --> 00:50:54.920
I think we need to be very careful with missions.

00:50:55.980 --> 00:51:03.420
And when encountering these types of discarnate being spirits, again, we can play a lot with labels,

00:51:04.160 --> 00:51:08.120
I think the bigger thing is really to just kind of work with the energetics that they present.

00:51:09.300 --> 00:51:11.120
You know, are they coming and sharing a love?

00:51:11.270 --> 00:51:12.900
Are they challenging me in some way?

00:51:13.100 --> 00:51:17.120
Are they dropping in and challenging maybe some fear within me that I need to overcome?

00:51:18.220 --> 00:51:23.120
And again, just kind of coming back to the self and what do I have to learn from the experience?

00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:24.240
How can I go deeper?

00:51:24.620 --> 00:51:28.820
How can I evolve to become a more responsible, loving being?

00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:36.140
Yeah, I really land or that last bit really lands with me because this is one of the things that,

00:51:37.060 --> 00:51:43.180
Especially when, so I do some integration coaching for people.

00:51:43.780 --> 00:51:49.020
Generally, people are reaching out when they've had either an experience that they can't talk

00:51:49.180 --> 00:51:52.820
about really with anyone in their personal community because they don't have a lot of

00:51:53.020 --> 00:51:56.320
folk around them or that they've had a very difficult experience.

00:51:58.319 --> 00:52:05.760
And I've many times had someone come online into a call and they're very overwhelmed and

00:52:05.760 --> 00:52:11.000
upset by something that they can't make sense of. And it's usually something really big. And this

00:52:11.070 --> 00:52:16.520
sort of general sort of thing that's upsetting is like, was that real? You know, what do I do with

00:52:16.620 --> 00:52:22.240
this now that I don't know if it's real or if it is real, then what do I do? And if it isn't real,

00:52:22.370 --> 00:52:27.240
then like, what does it mean? And usually in those instances, I think, you know, there's a lot of

00:52:27.500 --> 00:52:35.420
value in wondering about the reality of these things. But usually from like a triage perspective,

00:52:35.640 --> 00:52:40.000
I generally go, well, like, let's just not worry about whether or not it's real. Like,

00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:43.800
instead of having that be the thing we're focused on, like, what does it mean to you?

00:52:44.560 --> 00:52:49.320
What did it feel like? What feelings came up for you? Like, now that you feel into those feelings,

00:52:49.780 --> 00:52:55.080
like, what is the impact of this experience on your life now? What does that feel like?

00:52:55.440 --> 00:52:58.720
Because you might not be able to feel like, almost definitely, you're not going to figure

00:52:58.730 --> 00:53:04.319
out was that or was that not, you know, like a gray alien that actually, you know, visited me

00:53:04.380 --> 00:53:11.640
in my mind, right? But you can absolutely figure out what did you feel, what is the impact of those

00:53:11.860 --> 00:53:15.720
feelings and how you can work with those feelings in a way that can either at the very least bring

00:53:15.720 --> 00:53:23.420
you back to baseline or serve as an important sort of arena to uncover lessons about yourself

00:53:23.660 --> 00:53:29.059
and your life. And that's obviously a very pragmatic way of looking at it compared to

00:53:29.340 --> 00:53:34.420
say maybe like yeah it's a very sort of like minimalizing to the to pragmatism of just like

00:53:34.480 --> 00:53:38.420
application in your life but so when you when you had described it the way that you did I felt like

00:53:38.540 --> 00:53:43.800
yeah that really landed for me yeah no and what you're saying really resonates with me too um

00:53:44.790 --> 00:53:50.340
yeah but you know like we are we are kind of all connected to the dreaming of god

00:53:50.940 --> 00:53:56.119
and we're all playing these you know roles uh you know and I think this is a key point as well

00:53:57.000 --> 00:54:07.780
is that if we think of the starting point of the universe as being, you know, the zero-point field or, you know, non-dual reality,

00:54:07.940 --> 00:54:09.560
well, how does God experience itself?

00:54:10.130 --> 00:54:13.020
It experiences itself through duality and creating another.

00:54:14.820 --> 00:54:20.340
And in that, because, of course, God, if we want to play again with that word, is infinite,

00:54:22.280 --> 00:54:34.280
And throwing itself into material reality, which of course as humans for us is difficult, but God isn't someone who's thinking good or bad, ultimately.

00:54:34.590 --> 00:54:37.260
From a non-dual perspective, there's no such thing as good or bad.

00:54:37.380 --> 00:54:45.240
You know, it's our ego minds in the nature of living in duality that starts to create these distinctions.

00:54:45.570 --> 00:55:03.140
And it is in living in duality that we are essentially, again, God looking at itself in the mirror, but in all experience, which means all experience in order to play that all out is all of the negative and all of the positive, all of the good, all of the bad, the evil, etc., etc.

00:55:04.100 --> 00:55:17.260
So there's, and I frankly don't think there's someone on the other end of this keeping track of all of it. It's just, it's just playing it out as is. And people of course can talk about karma and I think that can turn into an interesting conversation on its own.

00:55:17.360 --> 00:55:21.580
But, um, you know, again, it's how do we relate to these experiences?

00:55:23.279 --> 00:55:29.140
And there was, um, uh, Richard Alpert, uh, Rom Doss.

00:55:30.300 --> 00:55:35.560
And it was one of these things, I wish he had written a book on it, but it's just like a fairly short 20 minute talk that he gave.

00:55:36.920 --> 00:55:38.760
And he talks about reality channels.

00:55:39.140 --> 00:55:49.360
And, you know, there's this idea which has been quite popularized of, you know, that we are, we can see ourselves as a TV and we can tune into these different channels and consciousness is always playing.

00:55:50.000 --> 00:55:53.080
It's just about how we tune in, you know, what channel am I tuning into?

00:55:53.920 --> 00:55:58.760
So he talks about, you know, channel one being kind of our lived physical reality.

00:56:00.080 --> 00:56:01.300
You know, I'm Wade Richardson.

00:56:01.500 --> 00:56:06.040
I wrote this book on the psychedelic mindmeld and I'm right now talking to James Jesso.

00:56:06.880 --> 00:56:28.320
And, you know, channel two being the channel of our psychology and, you know, it's like, why am I, why, what are the underlying reasons for me doing various things in life? Why did I write the book? For example, uh, it's the psychotherapy, you know, he likes to joke about it being the psychotherapy channel. You know, what about the traumas in my life that had informed who I am today?

00:56:29.500 --> 00:56:33.480
Channel three is, you know, playing with the super consciousness.

00:56:33.780 --> 00:56:37.620
It's the archetypal and all of the layers of archetype.

00:56:38.140 --> 00:56:48.280
Channel four is the channel of the soul where, you know, I look within myself and through my experiences, you know, and, you know, various levels of waking up.

00:56:48.760 --> 00:56:52.440
I see myself as a soul that's, you know, incarnate within this body.

00:56:53.110 --> 00:56:59.100
And I look around the world and wait a minute, there's all these other, you know, billions of people out there and their souls and body.

00:56:59.260 --> 00:57:02.760
it starts to get into the existential questions of, well, why am I here?

00:57:03.110 --> 00:57:03.860
Why are we here?

00:57:04.880 --> 00:57:07.960
And then channel five being the non-dual channel.

00:57:08.420 --> 00:57:13.880
You know, as I said earlier, I look into your eyes, you are me, and there is no separation.

00:57:14.700 --> 00:57:18.800
And then he jokes about channel six being void, which, you know, is for the Buddhists.

00:57:18.920 --> 00:57:20.600
And of course, he wasn't a Buddhist.

00:57:22.300 --> 00:57:26.640
But, you know, if we play with all of these different layers of how we can look at things,

00:57:26.740 --> 00:57:32.260
I think they're helpful for integrating because there is no one and only way of looking at things.

00:57:32.440 --> 00:57:36.220
In fact, there's a variety of way of looking at there and they all interpenetrate each other.

00:57:37.460 --> 00:57:41.700
I'd like to take a little pause here from the interview and thank my patrons on Patreon

00:57:42.220 --> 00:57:49.800
who make the show possible. It is through Patreon and the sort of ongoing regular contributions of

00:57:50.020 --> 00:57:54.479
people who voluntarily think, hey, I want to, I want to give money to this show. I want to give

00:57:54.500 --> 00:57:59.980
money to this guy who's making this thing that I think is valuable or I enjoy. It's through that,

00:58:00.120 --> 00:58:06.700
that I'm able to earn an income, that I'm able to earn a living. This is my job. This is the work

00:58:06.820 --> 00:58:14.480
I've been developing for 10 years. It's part of a larger package of work, I suppose, which includes

00:58:14.520 --> 00:58:19.000
the various books that I've written, which you might see on the screen here, and the new book

00:58:19.100 --> 00:58:24.460
that I'm working on now, and a number of other things. But the crux of it, my main income source

00:58:24.520 --> 00:58:31.060
is patreon and is through people who support the show on patreon by saying hey i'd like to give him

00:58:31.110 --> 00:58:37.680
a couple of dollars and i couldn't do this without you so if you're one of those people if you are a

00:58:37.720 --> 00:58:46.060
patron listening right now thank you so much this is it like this is what you help me do and i am

00:58:46.360 --> 00:58:54.440
so grateful for it and i appreciate that you are reciprocating the value you get from it in the

00:58:54.460 --> 00:58:58.160
listen on the screen here on YouTube or in the description of this episode, wherever you're

00:58:58.340 --> 00:59:02.500
checking it out, give significantly some of which for a long time. And the name in the credits is an

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01:01:50.580 --> 01:01:52.400
Let's get back into the interview with Wade Richardson.

01:01:55.560 --> 01:02:09.000
So let's talk about maybe like, you know, with respect to there being many different ways, different channels we could tune into on this next question or like to your address of this next question.

01:02:10.040 --> 01:02:39.720
What do you see as the value of this? And I don't mean just like the general value of that telepathic psychedelic Mindmeld experiences can happen. But I mean, in the sense of going in intentionally to connect with another in this way, what is the value of this kind of intentional journey, excuse me, intentional journey in comparison and contrast to journeys that are

01:02:39.740 --> 01:02:44.320
more focused towards the self rather than towards sharing.

01:02:46.140 --> 01:02:48.360
Right. Well, I think there's a few layers to this. Um,

01:02:48.840 --> 01:02:56.400
the biggest one is finding a new intimacy that is just unexpected and never

01:02:56.660 --> 01:02:59.120
thought possible. Um, you know,

01:02:59.120 --> 01:03:03.760
this is basically to become completely naked to the other and show all of

01:03:03.840 --> 01:03:04.760
oneself, which, you know,

01:03:04.760 --> 01:03:07.240
a lot of people are not going to be comfortable with and that's why I'm

01:03:07.240 --> 01:03:14.440
suggesting it's an advanced practice. But in that space, we can find a loving connection that we

01:03:14.580 --> 01:03:20.580
never thought we could find. And it's just, it's going deeper. And it's a deeper exploration of

01:03:20.880 --> 01:03:28.020
consciousness. It's a deeper exploration of our porosity. It's a deeper exploration of us in terms

01:03:28.090 --> 01:03:36.440
of unity consciousness. And, you know, we see deeper into each other. We see, you know, our warts,

01:03:36.800 --> 01:03:38.740
You know, we see the other person's works more deeply.

01:03:39.520 --> 01:03:46.100
But, you know, as we do the work and we drop into experiencing that ourselves and the other person is sharing in that,

01:03:47.100 --> 01:03:54.000
I think it brings a deeper loving understanding of each other as humans and a deeper compassion, ultimately.

01:03:54.220 --> 01:03:58.720
I think that's a big piece of the work is being more compassionate.

01:03:58.800 --> 01:04:04.660
And I'm hoping that the more we can break down these barriers of separation is, you know, we're individuals.

01:04:06.400 --> 01:04:20.080
Where, you know, you see, you know, particularly it really stands out in the United States right now in terms of greed, you know, Trump is all about world domination, you know, oh, you know, and who knows, like, you know, maybe in the next year or two, as weird as it sounds like there might be an invasion of Canada.

01:04:20.260 --> 01:04:21.700
Like that's the way he's talking, right?

01:04:21.840 --> 01:04:22.600
Yeah, I know.

01:04:22.880 --> 01:04:27.640
And so, you know, you might be an American, um, and you know, in the not too far distant

01:04:27.930 --> 01:04:28.020
future.

01:04:28.090 --> 01:04:31.820
And of course that's highly unlikely, but you know, unfortunately it's something that

01:04:32.120 --> 01:04:35.600
possible, you know, Canada and the U S have fought wars in the past, like going back a

01:04:35.720 --> 01:04:36.340
couple hundred years.

01:04:37.319 --> 01:04:42.480
And, uh, you know, it's, and it's my hope that, you know, the United States, the United

01:04:42.720 --> 01:04:45.580
States wakes up because, you know, it is an imperialist country.

01:04:45.760 --> 01:04:51.160
It's a neo-colonialist state that has, you know, throughout almost all of its history

01:04:51.280 --> 01:04:52.940
gone around the world killing people.

01:04:53.140 --> 01:04:54.440
You know, I mean, there's a mass genocide

01:04:54.620 --> 01:04:57.120
in just creating the United States of the Native Americans.

01:04:58.000 --> 01:04:59.100
And it's absolutely horrific.

01:04:59.280 --> 01:05:01.620
And unfortunately, Americans do have,

01:05:03.200 --> 01:05:05.160
wear the archetype of the warrior.

01:05:06.520 --> 01:05:08.940
And, you know, so much of what drives Americans

01:05:09.300 --> 01:05:10.960
is wanting to be number one in the world,

01:05:11.220 --> 01:05:13.760
which is associated with greed and various other,

01:05:16.540 --> 01:05:18.800
yeah, other various dark things.

01:05:19.600 --> 01:05:36.280
And so, yeah, again, in my hope with this, and, you know, of course, there's others doing it in their own ways, to break down the separation of the individual and to see, you know, how much we have in common and that there is a need to be more loving and compassionate towards each other.

01:05:37.240 --> 01:05:45.780
And, yeah, dropping more into what does the community, the world community need as opposed to, you know, the construct.

01:05:46.000 --> 01:05:53.680
And ultimately, this is the funny thing with, you know, nation states is that it's a fairly recent construct, you know, the last really 300, 400 years.

01:05:55.140 --> 01:06:01.900
And, you know, all this nationalism and people identifying as, you know, I'm an American, I'm a Canadian or whatever it is.

01:06:02.040 --> 01:06:02.180
Right.

01:06:03.520 --> 01:06:13.960
It's a bit ridiculous when you start to, you know, to zoom out and see the nature of what we are as a species and how interconnected we are.

01:06:14.220 --> 01:06:21.620
So again, my hope in this work is a deeper, loving, compassionate relationing amongst humans.

01:06:23.400 --> 01:06:28.540
I'm going to make a couple of comments there that are sort of like both to what you said.

01:06:30.500 --> 01:06:34.960
One of which is, you know, you're talking about us in our connection with each other.

01:06:35.140 --> 01:06:41.440
And I think to take it one step past that is also our connection with the non-human world.

01:06:41.760 --> 01:06:43.880
Psychedelics are incredible for that.

01:06:44.040 --> 01:06:51.360
In fact, I would say that that is a much less transgressive premise is to suggest that people

01:06:51.620 --> 01:06:55.920
taking psychedelics might feel like they're connecting with a living, breathing being

01:06:56.180 --> 01:06:59.860
that is a tree or a plant or the sky or something to this effect.

01:07:01.200 --> 01:07:07.300
But that kind of our isolation or our sort of, what is it?

01:07:07.340 --> 01:07:12.860
like Sky Otter describes it as the sort of like the tomb that we've encased ourselves in

01:07:14.040 --> 01:07:20.820
by isolating ourselves from the womb of the world of the planet is one that is like very stifling

01:07:21.400 --> 01:07:27.500
and a significant contributor, I think, on many levels to the problems that we're facing and

01:07:28.880 --> 01:07:36.020
sort of continuously propagating on the planet. And I think that when I think about, you know,

01:07:36.080 --> 01:07:39.940
shared consciousness or telepathic mindmelds. We're talking about other people and disincarnate

01:07:40.120 --> 01:07:44.660
entities and this kind of thing. But I think a very legitimate case can be made to extend that

01:07:44.820 --> 01:07:49.920
kind of phenomenon to interactions with the natural world and the various inhabitants,

01:07:50.110 --> 01:07:55.860
non-human inhabitants of the natural world as an expression of a kind of telepathic mindmeld

01:07:55.860 --> 01:08:01.740
or a psychedelic mindmeld. I mean, I'm not necessarily trying to put that on you or your

01:08:01.760 --> 01:08:04.580
or your claims here, but that's something that I, I would,

01:08:04.880 --> 01:08:06.880
I would extend it to in my own perspective.

01:08:08.080 --> 01:08:11.400
No, that's beautifully said. And I absolutely agree with you. And, uh,

01:08:11.750 --> 01:08:14.900
you know, this is something that's been happening more recently for me and like

01:08:15.320 --> 01:08:19.060
post-production of the book. But, um, when doing psychedelics,

01:08:19.160 --> 01:08:22.140
I've been connecting the stranger, this is going to sound, but to,

01:08:22.420 --> 01:08:27.560
to planets, you know, within our solar system, dominantly Saturn. And I,

01:08:27.779 --> 01:08:30.420
again, I don't know why there's a lot of mystery behind this stuff, but,

01:08:30.600 --> 01:08:39.359
And also to planet Earth, you know, and it's a living being, of course, and we're creations at some level, of course, of the planet.

01:08:39.620 --> 01:08:44.220
So, yeah, again, we are all interconnected and the planet and nature is part of that.

01:08:45.100 --> 01:08:47.100
Yeah, it makes me think of Alan Watts, actually.

01:08:47.299 --> 01:08:51.680
This is a, I was just referencing this in a section of the book that I'm presently writing.

01:08:53.120 --> 01:08:59.319
And one of Alan Watts' perspectives is on the language we use to say, like, we come into this world.

01:08:59.460 --> 01:09:04.700
When we're born, we come into this world. And he says that this is actually incorrect. In his mind,

01:09:05.100 --> 01:09:12.920
we don't come into this world. We come out of this world in the same way that an apple tree apples

01:09:15.180 --> 01:09:19.779
earth peoples. It does many other things, but one of the things it does is it peoples.

01:09:20.620 --> 01:09:27.100
So we come out of this world the same way an apple comes out of an apple tree. And I mean,

01:09:27.160 --> 01:09:33.000
then he also extends it to whatever the intelligence of the universe is that sort of like all of

01:09:33.259 --> 01:09:38.240
existence as we, as we are able to observe it and see it, you know, comes, you know,

01:09:38.500 --> 01:09:43.580
out of the intelligence of the universe. So too are we, you know, beings that come out of

01:09:43.890 --> 01:09:49.920
the intelligence of the universe. Um, so it's, it's making me think of that there with your

01:09:50.220 --> 01:09:54.840
connection with, uh, Saturn, you know, like whatever it is that, you know, brought the

01:09:54.860 --> 01:09:59.540
solar system into being, if we are that, then there's a possibility to as much connect with

01:09:59.540 --> 01:10:03.780
the earth as whatever it is that has us, you know, with our other celestial neighbors.

01:10:05.800 --> 01:10:11.260
Yeah, no, that resonates again, too. And I just didn't add another layer of that. I mean,

01:10:11.440 --> 01:10:16.860
yeah, the universe giving birth to all of us. So if you think, you know, if you're someone who

01:10:17.080 --> 01:10:21.780
believes in soul or spirit, again, we can play with definitions there. But as the soul is

01:10:21.800 --> 01:10:27.040
something that journeys through lifetimes, it's quite possible, again, I'm not going to be

01:10:27.220 --> 01:10:32.380
definitive on any of this, but it's possible that, you know, we were born somewhere else in the

01:10:33.180 --> 01:10:40.660
universe, and that we arrived as spirits or souls on planet Earth, and that planet Earth gave birth

01:10:40.820 --> 01:10:44.840
to our bodies and everything that's, you know, happened throughout the species, throughout all

01:10:44.960 --> 01:10:49.880
of our history on Earth. But at the same time, it's possible that we may have chosen to come and

01:10:49.900 --> 01:10:57.140
work with Earth in whatever kind of weird, mysterious way that is occurring.

01:10:57.460 --> 01:11:01.660
I mean, I think, you know, history will play that out over the course of, you know, maybe

01:11:01.960 --> 01:11:04.180
hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of years yet.

01:11:04.670 --> 01:11:11.140
But we are part of the evolution of all of that, maybe at both a soul level and at a physical

01:11:11.360 --> 01:11:17.640
level, and that is potentially a co-creative process with the planet as a living being.

01:11:19.840 --> 01:11:40.560
The other thing I was going to say earlier from your comments around, you know, like the one of the values of this kind of work is to sort of get beyond our the sort of encapsulation of the self and like start to really feel ourselves as and with each other is some work that was being done.

01:11:43.540 --> 01:11:50.840
Antoine Saka and Lior Roseman, they did some research where they were going in and observing

01:11:52.500 --> 01:11:58.980
ayahuasca ceremonies that were happening. I mean, this is a while ago, probably extra relevant now,

01:11:59.660 --> 01:12:08.360
but ayahuasca ceremonies that were happening in the West Bank, so the Israel-Palestine zone,

01:12:09.320 --> 01:12:11.180
and that they were mixed groups.

01:12:11.580 --> 01:12:14.280
They were groups of people who were both Jewish

01:12:15.020 --> 01:12:18.280
and Muslim or Palestinians and Israelis and also Christians.

01:12:19.060 --> 01:12:22.320
And that they just happened to be in the same group.

01:12:22.560 --> 01:12:23.780
Like that was the same circle.

01:12:24.680 --> 01:12:27.560
And that despite the fact that the intention wasn't to,

01:12:28.140 --> 01:12:30.640
you know, like process their relationships,

01:12:30.800 --> 01:12:32.620
they were all there for their own independent reasons.

01:12:32.880 --> 01:12:49.140
They tracked the experiences people were somewhat spontaneously having that were relevant to the deeply internally embedded conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.

01:12:49.220 --> 01:12:54.780
and some of the experiences they were having and how it created greater empathy and understanding

01:12:55.320 --> 01:12:59.940
for each other and themselves in the conflict over time and the consequence that seemed to

01:13:00.200 --> 01:13:04.920
accidentally have on conflict resolution. Because I mean, reading some of these experiences,

01:13:05.740 --> 01:13:10.120
I come to tears. I don't think anyone with any connection to their heart could not

01:13:10.750 --> 01:13:17.240
in reading some of these experiences. But the result being that they end up having a greater

01:13:17.260 --> 01:13:24.640
sense of empathy for the consequences of decades, maybe hundreds, thousands of years of turbulence

01:13:25.020 --> 01:13:28.520
between peoples playing out in the individuals today and themselves.

01:13:29.720 --> 01:13:35.980
Yeah, I've read those studies and I'm filled with hope when I read those. And of course,

01:13:36.040 --> 01:13:44.080
when you look at the conflagration of Israel-Palestine right now, I mean, there's so much more work

01:13:44.100 --> 01:13:45.120
that needs to be done there.

01:13:45.120 --> 01:13:49.280
I mean, it's just heartbreaking to see.

01:13:49.580 --> 01:13:53.340
I mean, what I identify as a genocide now of the Palestinians.

01:13:55.120 --> 01:13:57.340
Of course, a lot of people have mixed views on that,

01:13:57.580 --> 01:13:59.620
but I just can't see it any other way.

01:13:59.820 --> 01:14:05.280
I mean, it's just full-on mass destruction.

01:14:05.580 --> 01:14:08.180
And when you start talking about moving them to another location,

01:14:08.260 --> 01:14:10.920
I mean, that's not unlike what Hitler was talking about

01:14:10.940 --> 01:14:17.180
in terms of moving Jews out of Europe to Madagascar.

01:14:17.700 --> 01:14:21.500
Strangely enough, that was something that was on the table before the final solution.

01:14:21.920 --> 01:14:25.880
So it's horrific what we're watching in the world right now.

01:14:26.740 --> 01:14:28.200
And have watched for many years, right?

01:14:28.320 --> 01:14:32.160
I mean, this is the thing, is that humans have done some really nasty stuff

01:14:32.340 --> 01:14:33.940
in World War I and World War II,

01:14:34.920 --> 01:14:43.000
And all the ugliness around that associated with, you know, European colonialist powers basically fighting for number one.

01:14:43.020 --> 01:14:45.600
It's not like Germany was unique in any of this, right?

01:14:45.600 --> 01:14:53.260
I mean, Britain was number one and it was just other Europeans vying for that number one spot pole position, which of course the US is now in.

01:14:54.100 --> 01:15:04.740
And it's not like, you know, like Britain hadn't worked hard to get that number one by, you know, taking their position and extracting from the world and dominating elsewhere.

01:15:04.840 --> 01:15:22.700
Yeah, they had committed their own genocides around the world, if they want to be frank about it. Of course, you know, in the West, we don't really read that history because they wrote the history and they've kind of de-emphasized or, you know, kind of written it out of history about how horrifically they treated, say, the people in India and various other colonies.

01:15:24.860 --> 01:15:35.000
But yeah, that just speaks to the horrors of the world and how they're playing out in its very recent history within our parents' or grandparents' lifetimes.

01:15:35.620 --> 01:15:39.880
Some of the worst atrocities in all of human history have just occurred.

01:15:40.640 --> 01:15:46.480
If we look at that timeline, tens of millions of people dying in each of the world wars.

01:15:46.760 --> 01:15:51.620
It's just absolutely mind-blowing and sad and terrible.

01:15:51.940 --> 01:16:01.000
terrible so try not to be too playful here while simultaneously not wanting to

01:16:01.820 --> 01:16:07.380
miss out on the ability to to still enjoy and appreciate play in the midst of tragedy

01:16:08.280 --> 01:16:15.140
and crisis but i want to i want to take this talk of i'm like okay horrible shit happens

01:16:16.140 --> 01:16:33.120
It happens on massive scale. It happens and it has cascading impacts across generations on whole peoples and on individuals. And it can be as big as war and genocide. It can be as minimal as, well, minimal.

01:16:33.300 --> 01:16:56.660
It could be as sort of grand in our minds as war and genocide, but equally impactful for the individual person. It could be as simple as neglect or not being loved properly. We all have wounds and traumas. I think it was you quoted Viktor Frankl or you referenced him in his book. He had a metaphor, which was like all trauma creates smoke in the room.

01:16:57.240 --> 01:17:02.440
And it's like, it doesn't make sense to compare traumas because it's all just smoke in the room.

01:17:02.820 --> 01:17:04.760
And at some point it doesn't really matter what it is.

01:17:04.800 --> 01:17:08.000
The smoke fills up the room and it's just as impactful on the individual.

01:17:09.940 --> 01:17:13.440
So with that said, I want to go back to something you were saying earlier.

01:17:14.260 --> 01:17:26.460
Like you've been talking about, you know, the possibility of this kind of work to help us, you know, better get beyond ourselves and be empathetic with each other, see each other, recognize our connections, you know, through and as each other.

01:17:27.120 --> 01:17:32.220
But you'd also mentioned the possibility of doing sort of deep healing work.

01:17:32.590 --> 01:17:36.820
And you talk about this in the book a lot, processing or healing trauma or wounds.

01:17:38.160 --> 01:17:44.340
What is it about these, you know, what is it specifically, I suppose, about a kind of

01:17:45.320 --> 01:17:54.940
psychedelic mindmeld type experience that assists this trauma or wound healing or processing?

01:17:56.580 --> 01:18:01.460
Right. Well, if we think of trauma, again, as something that can lodge itself in the body,

01:18:01.660 --> 01:18:08.520
and again, this is often associated with the chemicals that play when we end up living in the moment of the trauma.

01:18:08.760 --> 01:18:18.660
So let's say someone is sexually abused or physically abused by a parent or a priest or some person, a teacher or something like that.

01:18:19.000 --> 01:18:34.680
In the moment of the trauma, the body is flooded with a variety of chemicals, which are meant to help the person try to flee, to fight back, these various types of defense mechanisms.

01:18:36.399 --> 01:18:44.360
And basically what can happen is that the chemicals aren't fully played out in the moment of the trauma.

01:18:44.410 --> 01:18:46.540
They basically end up kind of lodged in the body.

01:18:46.760 --> 01:18:52.040
course, with this psychological story of being traumatized, of the event itself, and how,

01:18:52.280 --> 01:18:57.700
you know, the ego, in a sense, has been completely disempowered, and the person has been abused.

01:18:58.980 --> 01:19:02.120
So again, this stuff gets actually caught in the flesh, and there's, you know, a lot

01:19:02.120 --> 01:19:06.180
of really good books that I reference in my book about how this occurs.

01:19:07.200 --> 01:19:12.320
And so when in the psychedelic mindmeld, you know, it's another healing modality, you

01:19:12.320 --> 01:19:16.720
know, and I want to say that there's a lot of other various forms of healing modalities

01:19:16.740 --> 01:19:21.140
there. I mean, we can get into yoga and various types of massage and breathwork, et cetera, that

01:19:21.420 --> 01:19:27.760
help release these traumas from the body. So what we're basically trying to do is bring the body

01:19:28.020 --> 01:19:35.160
back into health, releasing and processing that which is stuck in order for the body to kind of

01:19:35.320 --> 01:19:41.780
return to its peak health, which is, you know, its peak level of homeostasis to be as functioning

01:19:42.740 --> 01:19:48.560
as possible, you know, where we can again, enjoy life as much as possible and be engaged in life

01:19:48.590 --> 01:19:53.960
as much as possible. Um, you know, dropping into our creative abilities, wherever they

01:19:54.460 --> 01:20:02.560
may show up and how we connect to other people. Um, and I, you know, I've worked, we'll say in

01:20:02.740 --> 01:20:10.440
environments, um, with a lot of traumatized people in the past and, um, it really stands out, you

01:20:10.440 --> 01:20:17.980
If someone is really traumatized, how much it prevents them from living life, in a sense.

01:20:18.480 --> 01:20:23.620
Of course, we see that most obviously with people who are caught up in addictions.

01:20:24.660 --> 01:20:28.340
There's lots of different types of addictions that are not only related to substance abuse,

01:20:28.410 --> 01:20:31.860
but the substance abuse is the one that stands out the most.

01:20:32.180 --> 01:20:34.940
Alcohol, of course, being the most prevalent one on the planet,

01:20:35.530 --> 01:20:37.900
I would argue the most destructive drug on the planet.

01:20:39.600 --> 01:20:44.100
And, you know, there's a lot of research in various organizations and governments around the world that say the same.

01:20:44.210 --> 01:20:52.380
If you look at the overall data in terms of, you know, people killed by drinking and driving, you know, domestic abuse, accidental death.

01:20:52.490 --> 01:20:58.980
And of course, never mind the fact that alcohol is a neurotoxin and carcinogen that over time kills you.

01:20:58.980 --> 01:21:03.260
And that's even in low to moderate, but, you know, consistent drinking over a lifetime.

01:21:06.020 --> 01:21:08.140
So, yeah, I mean, there's these layers, right?

01:21:08.220 --> 01:21:16.860
And one of the things actually mentioning substance abuse is that psychedelics can help people move away from substance abuse.

01:21:17.040 --> 01:21:24.840
I mean, and there's lots of stories, and I've seen it personally with the work I've facilitated of people who were caught up in a form of addiction, whether it was alcohol.

01:21:25.230 --> 01:21:32.060
And let's not forget that THC, as much as marijuana, I think, has healing capacities and can be used for medical purposes.

01:21:33.080 --> 01:21:34.580
THC, unfortunately, is addictive.

01:21:34.680 --> 01:21:38.720
And I know people who have smoked pot, you know, daily throughout their lives over decades.

01:21:39.080 --> 01:21:40.660
And that's an addiction.

01:21:40.740 --> 01:21:44.620
And I've seen people work with psychedelics and step away from those types of addictions.

01:21:45.060 --> 01:21:50.680
Again, looking at greater health, seeing the body, and I mentioned this briefly in the book, as the holy temple.

01:21:51.300 --> 01:21:55.520
You know, let's look at ourselves as divine beings and take care of ourselves.

01:21:56.780 --> 01:22:08.080
And so, yeah, in terms of the mind mold, I think it's just one way to access that healing and how we can basically be engaged in that together where one person may not do it alone.

01:22:09.260 --> 01:22:11.680
So, you know, you can drop into a psychedelic session on your own.

01:22:11.680 --> 01:22:12.700
You can find your own healing.

01:22:13.100 --> 01:22:13.240
Absolutely.

01:22:14.480 --> 01:22:23.620
But when doing the work together, you may, you know, you may drop into something that the other person just can't access and open that up for processing and release.

01:22:23.980 --> 01:22:28.520
And again, with a target of overall better healing and health.

01:22:29.940 --> 01:22:49.900
And one of the things that you had mentioned in your book was the sort of possibility that, you know, when going into a space like that with another person and facing this, like these aspects of yourself that you can't otherwise get to on your own, or even if you were in your own experience, it's like managing and holding it can be very difficult.

01:22:50.000 --> 01:23:12.800
There's something about in this kind of shared consciousness space that another person being there can really support the being seen and held in ways that even just another person in the room being compassionate but not being there like with you on the shared consciousness level just can't reach in the same way.

01:23:14.340 --> 01:23:14.660
That's right.

01:23:14.860 --> 01:23:15.120
That's right.

01:23:15.200 --> 01:23:21.880
But I also want to say, because there's so many layers here, and this is complex, advanced work.

01:23:22.660 --> 01:23:28.040
And I really highlighted this piece in the book, which is the play of sexual energy.

01:23:29.199 --> 01:23:37.720
Because sexual energy is something that is an innate part, a primordial part of who we are as humans.

01:23:38.040 --> 01:23:42.040
And it's running through all of us in different ways at different times.

01:23:43.240 --> 01:23:48.100
But it's something that we have to bring a real awareness to, especially when we're doing these types of sessions.

01:23:49.610 --> 01:23:53.480
Because, you know, we see sexual abuse occurring, unfortunately, all over the place.

01:23:53.590 --> 01:23:59.160
I mean, it shows up, we've seen it a lot in religions, particularly in the last few decades,

01:23:59.350 --> 01:24:02.980
in terms of just exposure to what's happened over the many hundreds of years.

01:24:03.160 --> 01:24:04.640
And I will say all religions.

01:24:05.730 --> 01:24:11.760
But, you know, it shows up, of course, in school systems and in society more generally.

01:24:11.880 --> 01:24:14.900
But unfortunately, it is also showing up in the psychedelic world.

01:24:15.340 --> 01:24:23.220
It shows up in all sort of healing and therapeutic modalities and services in different ways.

01:24:23.940 --> 01:24:41.580
It happens to be the case that certain domains of that have grappled with it much sooner and have had more time to set up appropriate guidelines to protect it from happening where psychedelics weren't privy to that.

01:24:42.440 --> 01:24:48.820
until recently. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's true. And so, yeah, in working in these types of sessions,

01:24:50.740 --> 01:24:54.600
there's a couple of things. First off, I think the most important thing ultimately is that

01:24:54.840 --> 01:24:58.800
if you're going to work with someone else, you have to find someone that you can absolutely trust.

01:24:59.860 --> 01:25:03.900
And, you know, there's lots of ways to kind of work through what that looks like. And I offer

01:25:04.180 --> 01:25:09.440
various things in the book to kind of, you know, questions to be asking, you know, in terms of how

01:25:11.260 --> 01:25:16.220
socially mature the other person is, how emotionally responsible and mature the other

01:25:16.560 --> 01:25:21.720
person is. Are they in a place if something goes or becomes difficult in the session that they're

01:25:21.790 --> 01:25:26.520
open to talking about that and repairing that afterwards? And there's all these different

01:25:26.720 --> 01:25:30.800
layers, but I just want to highlight that that is an extremely important piece in terms of

01:25:31.020 --> 01:25:35.580
identifying who you want to work with. And of course, once you do agree to work together,

01:25:36.940 --> 01:25:42.360
Um, there are other layers in terms of, uh, discussing boundaries and of course, talking

01:25:42.370 --> 01:25:45.440
with the sexual pieces, you know, sexual energy in particular.

01:25:46.300 --> 01:25:51.000
Um, because you know, if the bodies start to tune into each other and start connecting

01:25:51.200 --> 01:25:52.800
physically, this is beyond the mind.

01:25:52.920 --> 01:25:53.040
Right.

01:25:53.720 --> 01:25:55.640
And I talk about how there can be bumps.

01:25:55.710 --> 01:26:01.120
And so this is very distinct from, you know, there's no sexual fond lane or no sexual engagement.

01:26:02.300 --> 01:26:07.140
Um, but you know, like if the, if I'm kind of moving across your body, I might bump a

01:26:07.980 --> 01:26:12.020
breast or, um, you know, a man's penis or something like that.

01:26:12.100 --> 01:26:16.300
Now these tend to be just brushes that they are very rare that they happen.

01:26:16.690 --> 01:26:22.400
Um, but if someone's not comfortable with this type of physical contact as incidental

01:26:22.460 --> 01:26:24.860
as it is, um, don't, don't do this work.

01:26:25.250 --> 01:26:26.840
You know, it's, it's as simple as that.

01:26:27.780 --> 01:26:34.280
if you're not completely open to completely revealing all of yourself to the other person,

01:26:35.080 --> 01:26:40.460
don't do this work. And I think that's one of the things, so who would potentially

01:26:42.140 --> 01:26:48.480
benefit the most from this work? I would say that couples who are already very intimately connected,

01:26:50.060 --> 01:26:55.520
who have high levels of trust, I think this is an incredible modality to go much deeper. I mean,

01:26:55.580 --> 01:27:01.000
with my wife and I, uh, it's just, I mean, I feel like, you know, we're this power couple,

01:27:01.180 --> 01:27:06.260
like we've just experienced this, these deep layers of intimacy that have brought us just that

01:27:06.380 --> 01:27:10.320
much closer together. And it's just, it's absolutely incredible to be able to share that

01:27:10.540 --> 01:27:15.440
with another person, especially, you know, in marriage where that person is with you day in,

01:27:15.560 --> 01:27:23.900
day out. And so there's a real beauty to that. Um, so yeah. Well, and I think something else about

01:27:23.920 --> 01:27:29.940
someone who you are married to or in an established, well-established intimate partnership.

01:27:30.090 --> 01:27:39.940
I can say as someone who's now been in a monogamous relationship partnership for more than six years

01:27:42.840 --> 01:27:50.460
that it gets more secure as things go on. And the sort of sense of how important and deep and

01:27:50.460 --> 01:27:57.400
profound it was in the first couple of years is true. But in the, in the years, like following

01:27:57.760 --> 01:28:03.060
that, those are the years where it's like, Oh, I really get a sense of like, how deep, like how

01:28:03.260 --> 01:28:10.560
much work did we do? What foundations were actually here? Um, and that early on, it can be easy to get

01:28:10.660 --> 01:28:18.160
the wrong idea about how much integrity a relationship actually has. Um, and then make

01:28:18.180 --> 01:28:23.460
choices that might put you too deep with another individual. It's something I encourage people.

01:28:23.520 --> 01:28:28.240
If you're dating someone new, you probably shouldn't take MDMA with them for a little while

01:28:28.620 --> 01:28:34.500
because it might give you a distorted sense of how close you are, how deep that loving really goes

01:28:34.880 --> 01:28:38.880
by sort of like chemically inducing it. And I think something like that could happen with

01:28:39.160 --> 01:28:44.120
psychedelics based on the way that you're describing these mindmelds if you're not

01:28:44.120 --> 01:28:49.540
careful. But once you're in that kind of like established, deep trusting relationship, you know

01:28:49.640 --> 01:28:54.840
what it is to trust each other. You know what that trust, like what it really feels like at a really

01:28:54.900 --> 01:29:00.300
deep level. And you're in a sexual relationship, the opportunity for that kind of exploration is,

01:29:01.000 --> 01:29:05.860
is incredible the way you describe. And I think the reason I'm bringing this up now with respect

01:29:06.060 --> 01:29:09.820
to the sexual thing and you bring up sexual energy, and this is one of the questions I had,

01:29:09.860 --> 01:29:19.260
is that the challenges and from that challenges, the possible damage that is present in doing this

01:29:19.400 --> 01:29:24.720
kind of work where sexual energies can come up and so on and so forth, where there isn't actually,

01:29:25.380 --> 01:29:33.780
and it isn't appropriate for any type of actual sexual interaction with each other.

01:29:35.660 --> 01:29:46.160
That itself is a kind of sort of challenge that can pose to significantly injure both or either party if it's acted upon.

01:29:46.600 --> 01:29:56.840
And you speak about this throughout the course of the book, which is like one of the boundaries is like no actual sexual conduct with the person during or afterwards.

01:29:57.220 --> 01:29:59.000
Can you speak a little bit about that?

01:29:59.100 --> 01:30:24.160
Because I mean, like, how does one, I mean, you could say in advance, but how does one navigate the sort of appropriate sort of establishing a protecting of boundaries with another person in a situation where you're both intentionally efforting to dissolve those boundaries and merge as one, especially when it comes to potential sexual violations?

01:30:26.420 --> 01:30:34.140
Well, certainly I think, uh, talking about it beforehand and I've really found because, you know, I was doing this work, you know, a long time before the book.

01:30:34.140 --> 01:30:37.620
And I have to say, one of the reasons I wrote the book is that the briefings were so long.

01:30:37.620 --> 01:30:43.460
I mean, you know, up to three hours just to help prepare people for a session to see if they would even be interested in a session.

01:30:44.100 --> 01:30:51.960
Now it's kind of like mandatory reading, you know, like whether you want to or not, if you have to read the book because I'm tired of explaining this stuff.

01:30:52.360 --> 01:30:55.060
Uh, you know, that does take hours and hours to do.

01:30:55.720 --> 01:30:58.300
And a big piece, of course, is this sexual piece.

01:30:58.780 --> 01:31:09.140
And I have an appendix at the back of the book that basically is an agreement about what is allowed in terms of boundaries and what's not allowed.

01:31:10.440 --> 01:31:18.120
And I think part of talking about it ahead of the session is an antidote to the actual possibility of it happening.

01:31:18.310 --> 01:31:21.240
Because it's like, okay, we know that this can happen.

01:31:21.350 --> 01:31:23.000
We're talking about the fact that it can happen.

01:31:23.120 --> 01:31:24.340
We're saying, no, it shouldn't happen.

01:31:24.460 --> 01:31:35.260
I'm not saying that's a 100%, like that's going to be flawless for everybody around the world and doing this because, you know, it's not unusual that those conversations can happen without psychosalics and things still happen.

01:31:36.840 --> 01:31:45.860
But again, I mean, you have to be very, very careful and know that this is, you know, dangerous territory or, you know, hazardous territory.

01:31:46.880 --> 01:31:48.400
So talking about it's important.

01:31:50.280 --> 01:31:53.600
Setting the boundaries is important because, you know, another piece of it too, like you go through.

01:31:54.000 --> 01:31:56.940
what can be harrowing experiences, releasing trauma.

01:31:57.030 --> 01:31:58.720
Like I've talked about the screaming, the yelling.

01:31:58.750 --> 01:32:03.680
I mean, there can be throwing up and purging and, and it is a lot to go through.

01:32:03.920 --> 01:32:06.220
And so it's like, okay, so you go through all of that.

01:32:06.340 --> 01:32:10.720
Are you okay with like cuddling with the other person and holding the other person?

01:32:10.880 --> 01:32:15.540
And I've, you know, almost everybody I've worked with, uh, in terms of, you know, you

01:32:15.660 --> 01:32:21.060
go through something and then you hold each other afterwards has been highly rewarding.

01:32:21.680 --> 01:32:26.400
You know, like, you know, that's reaching into, you know, those playing with chemicals again, right?

01:32:26.600 --> 01:32:37.300
Like oxytocin and, and, um, I can't remember the list, but, you know, there's a list of feel good chemicals in the body that are naturally released because of human touch.

01:32:37.600 --> 01:32:57.900
And it can also help to work through trauma, especially if someone was, you know, abandoned in their childhood or weren't touched, which is, you know, a pretty Western phenomenon, especially within, you know, the English, the Anglophone culture, not to touch children, you know, with, you know, in terms of being close as parents to kids.

01:32:59.100 --> 01:33:01.160
So there's a lot of, you know, abandonment trauma out there.

01:33:01.170 --> 01:33:04.560
So that's, you know, an important area where we can kind of find connection.

01:33:04.760 --> 01:33:17.260
But again, like, are you comfortable with that or not? Establishing that in advance. And the appendix is there, you know, people may or may not use it and sign off on it. But at the minimum, it really needs to be talked about.

01:33:19.160 --> 01:33:23.100
Yeah. I mean, interestingly, or not interestingly, what's the word I'm looking for,

01:33:24.200 --> 01:33:31.360
remains being a very important conversation, clearly, especially when it comes to sexual

01:33:31.700 --> 01:33:37.920
violation and what that does or doesn't look like. Because yeah, it can cause so much damage and so

01:33:37.920 --> 01:33:44.140
much trouble. And in those spaces, so many things can happen. And especially if one isn't doing their

01:33:44.140 --> 01:33:51.520
own real sort of like deep work in themselves. This is, had a conversation with, uh, Geronimo

01:33:51.960 --> 01:33:58.920
from ISEERS and they do a whole course about, uh, ayahuasca facilitation for non-traditional

01:33:59.460 --> 01:34:04.340
ayahuasca facilitators. So Western people. And one of the things I talk about is like,

01:34:04.620 --> 01:34:09.700
there are these very specific pitfalls that most people, if you're not careful, you will fall into.

01:34:11.040 --> 01:34:27.480
And one of those things is like just getting to a place where somehow, despite your best efforts, despite your best intentions, at some point down the line, some part of you has managed to convince yourself that these particular actions are good and healing and they're part of the work, but they're actually ultimately sexual assault and violation.

01:34:28.260 --> 01:34:42.920
So there's a lot of work that has to be done relationally and independently, internally, to sort of like help protect ourselves from falling into these pitfalls or acting in ways that can cause damage to another person.

01:34:44.040 --> 01:34:44.580
Yeah, absolutely.

01:34:44.860 --> 01:34:50.160
And I would say that, you know, in the traditional societies, it's an issue as well, a big issue.

01:34:50.260 --> 01:35:03.040
Because, you know, I spent years going to various ayahuasca ceremonies, you know, facilitated by various shamans, some, you know, out of the jungle, all who had been trained in the jungle, but may have been from other countries.

01:35:04.380 --> 01:35:05.740
And guess what?

01:35:06.070 --> 01:35:08.800
Oh, sexual energy, not talked about before a ceremony.

01:35:09.260 --> 01:35:10.960
Never, not once, right?

01:35:12.000 --> 01:35:13.500
And yet there's touch.

01:35:14.240 --> 01:35:22.780
You know, the shaman and, you know, every ceremony I ever went to, the shaman is touching, um, the people, uh, who are present.

01:35:22.920 --> 01:35:24.920
You know, of course it's done with, with healing intention.

01:35:26.000 --> 01:35:36.140
Um, but you know, this gets complicated because let's say, uh, you know, there's a, and of course, you know, unfortunately sexually abuse usually happens to really attractive younger women.

01:35:36.680 --> 01:35:50.720
Let's say there's a younger, attractive woman, and a male shaman comes over, starts doing work on her body, but we'll say, you know, not touching breasts, not touching genitals, right?

01:35:51.230 --> 01:35:53.260
But, you know, but close, right?

01:35:53.460 --> 01:35:55.880
Maybe touching a thigh, maybe even the inner thigh.

01:35:57.440 --> 01:35:59.580
And, you know, this is where it gets really complicated.

01:35:59.640 --> 01:36:12.440
Because now, speaking to the porosity and the telepathy of us as human beings, let's say that the shaman is working out of a genuine healing modality.

01:36:12.710 --> 01:36:21.120
And he's doing this work, and intuitively he's reaching into these places within the girl's body and doing legitimate work.

01:36:21.720 --> 01:36:25.500
However, this is a beautiful, attractive young woman.

01:36:25.930 --> 01:36:27.120
This is a male shaman.

01:36:28.520 --> 01:36:32.220
underneath all of that, which the shaman may or may not be conscious of,

01:36:32.480 --> 01:36:34.020
oh, wow, this is a beautiful woman.

01:36:34.120 --> 01:36:37.000
I feel attracted to this woman, but I'm not crossing any boundaries.

01:36:37.140 --> 01:36:39.920
But yet there's this thought, this feeling, this emotion.

01:36:40.800 --> 01:36:43.760
And because we're telepathically porous,

01:36:44.320 --> 01:36:47.780
it's possible that the woman picks up on the sexual energy

01:36:49.060 --> 01:36:51.100
dropping into her from this male shaman.

01:36:51.420 --> 01:36:53.320
And I'm going to say that this is a possibility, right?

01:36:53.360 --> 01:36:54.220
A real possibility.

01:36:54.820 --> 01:36:56.860
She picks up on this, and now the touch,

01:36:57.420 --> 01:37:13.160
Even though the touch is legitimate from a healing perspective, now her experience of the touch, there's a sexual layer to it that is uncomfortable to her, which is real to her because of this emotional thing that she's tuning into at a telepathic level.

01:37:14.160 --> 01:37:29.000
And now she starts to create a narrative of sexual abuse because of what she is going through while being in the psychedelic space, which is already a very complex space to be in in terms of what's real, what's not real.

01:37:29.650 --> 01:37:37.500
But I would say at a minimum, there was an exchange that was uncomfortable to her because of what was going on within each of each other.

01:37:37.570 --> 01:37:41.180
And they were feeling into each other beyond kind of the conscious mind.

01:37:41.320 --> 01:37:53.880
And of course, the woman that's experiencing it probably doesn't even have a sense of the possibility of this kind of telepathic exchange and her projection of creating a story or narrative around what transpired.

01:37:55.020 --> 01:37:59.920
So I just want to throw that out there, that I think in some cases of alleged sexual abuse, that this is a thing.

01:38:00.980 --> 01:38:11.760
Now, of course, there are, you know, definitely stories of real sexual abuse where people have crossed moral and ethical boundaries and have committed, you know, arguably illegal acts.

01:38:12.420 --> 01:38:16.340
Sure. And very, very unambiguous, unambiguous acts.

01:38:16.580 --> 01:38:17.300
Yes. Yes.

01:38:17.480 --> 01:38:32.320
And I want to say comment on that, which is to say that in my mind, of course, like the shaman or the facilitator could have done their due diligence and then it still just kind of happened.

01:38:32.380 --> 01:38:58.780
But the reality is like that shaman or facilitator created the scenario where that could happen by not having appropriately understood, like either have been, I guess, like set up the scenario where there was a conversation in advance that this person knew that kind of thing could come up or that there might've been touch or that they were able to say no or stop at any time.

01:38:59.360 --> 01:39:13.220
Like it's the responsibility of the facilitator to make sure that all of those things are clearly communicated and your participants are aware of what their options are if they get into something that they want to have a no stop don't moment with.

01:39:13.460 --> 01:39:26.740
And then also to navigate the complexity of somebody being in a state where they can't say no or stop or don't or not, you know, for the quindaro, the facilitator to not be able to recognize when those moments are coming up.

01:39:27.050 --> 01:39:30.180
Like all of this is, it gets, it gets very complicated.

01:39:30.660 --> 01:39:41.880
It doesn't start when that person is having a sort of like detecting their, you know, unacted upon sexual arousal that started well before they, they got to that point in my mind.

01:39:42.760 --> 01:39:58.980
And I agree. And that's why I say it's so important that these types of discussions occur before ceremonies. And again, in traditional settings, I'm not really, well, frankly, I'm just going to say that I have yet to find one example where this is something that's talked about in advance in a traditional setting.

01:39:59.220 --> 01:40:12.100
Now, that's not to say it doesn't happen somewhere where I'm not aware, but I'm certainly not aware of it. And yeah, no, I think it's absolutely critical. You know, and Stanislav Grof, as just one example, speaks, you know, about this on a regular basis.

01:40:12.520 --> 01:40:18.200
the importance of, you know, being able to have the safe word of safe, being able to say stop or

01:40:18.360 --> 01:40:23.440
don't do this. And, um, and, and being very specific about what that word is. And I go a

01:40:23.440 --> 01:40:27.120
little bit further and it's like, if the person pushes you away, because of course, as you know,

01:40:27.130 --> 01:40:32.440
in the psychedelic space, you know, I may not be able to verbalize just pushing away is enough to

01:40:32.640 --> 01:40:39.980
stop. Right. Um, because, you know, let's err on the air on the side of caution and, uh, and yeah,

01:40:40.220 --> 01:40:45.540
it's like maybe, maybe they didn't mean to push me away, but they did push me away. And that's,

01:40:45.540 --> 01:40:48.440
I just have to accept that it's basically someone saying no.

01:40:50.300 --> 01:40:55.980
Yeah. And, and, and this, obviously this, this is a very loaded topic, loaded conversation. And,

01:40:56.080 --> 01:41:01.600
and I don't present myself necessarily as an expert in fully understanding these dynamics and

01:41:01.600 --> 01:41:07.560
how to protect from them or prevent them or deal with them. Should they arise or what's happening?

01:41:08.060 --> 01:41:11.900
Um, but it, at the very least, you know, I, I completely agree.

01:41:12.020 --> 01:41:18.400
Like it's, it's incredibly important that these things that the possibility of sexual

01:41:18.780 --> 01:41:27.880
energy or behaviors emerging, um, in a session, absolutely 100% needs to be talked about in

01:41:28.120 --> 01:41:28.280
advance.

01:41:28.900 --> 01:41:38.020
Um, and not doing so is at the very least, uh, at the very least a risky choice and at

01:41:38.480 --> 01:41:46.540
you know setting somebody or somebody's up for incredible damage yeah no absolutely and it's

01:41:46.580 --> 01:41:51.020
it's one of those interesting things like i worked with a man recently a younger man

01:41:52.120 --> 01:41:58.480
and uh so we're dropping in you know telepathically and it's just you know very surface stuff um but

01:41:58.600 --> 01:42:04.180
definitely kind of feeling into each other's energies and and then i roll over like spontaneously

01:42:04.200 --> 01:42:08.340
roll over to grab his head, you know, kind of drop it into the, you know, what would be the typical

01:42:09.020 --> 01:42:16.000
Vulcan wine mill. And he pushed me away and that's like, yeah, okay, we're done. Right. And I went

01:42:16.070 --> 01:42:20.760
into a different room and, uh, let him continue on his own and everything was great. I mean,

01:42:20.790 --> 01:42:26.700
there was no offense taken either way and we both had great sessions and, um, but yeah, it's just

01:42:26.800 --> 01:42:33.200
like, Hey, there's a boundary there and I'm not going to cross it. So, I mean, that, that was

01:42:33.220 --> 01:42:38.880
actually this, this whole talk around, you know, navigating, managing, protecting, establishing

01:42:39.040 --> 01:42:43.800
boundaries was something I was going to ask a little bit later. Um, and before we, before we

01:42:43.980 --> 01:42:49.560
end, I have another question about where things can go wrong, but I want to go back to, uh, issues

01:42:49.760 --> 01:42:56.760
of healing trauma, just generally maybe just like processing old wounds or whatever it might be

01:42:57.600 --> 01:43:15.820
In your book, you talk about sharing the purge. And I've heard Martin Ball, who you mentioned many times in your book, describe events like this where someone would be struggling and he would put his hand on their chest and then he would vomit.

01:43:16.360 --> 01:43:21.080
and then later the experience of the participant was that like he was vomiting for them because

01:43:21.300 --> 01:43:27.060
their energy was stuck or something um can you talk a little bit about this idea of sharing the

01:43:27.400 --> 01:43:35.100
purge and the role that can play in the in the sort of like the healing uh potentials of a of a

01:43:35.780 --> 01:43:43.280
mindmeld psychedelic mindmeld experience sure well i mean yeah just to give you a sense um

01:43:43.760 --> 01:44:06.640
Where this whole thing started actually was with this very scenario where I was at an ayahuasca ceremony in Mexico, and I've talked about this quite a bit, with a close friend of mine, someone who was struggling with substance abuse, which was one of the reasons he wanted to try ayahuasca but didn't want to try it locally because, of course, professional reputations and everything, he didn't want to be found out.

01:44:07.420 --> 01:44:08.840
Of course, it'd also be illegal.

01:44:10.940 --> 01:44:16.860
So we found ourselves in Mexico, uh, you know, wanting to do some sporting events in a particular

01:44:17.100 --> 01:44:20.980
town and a shaman that I've been working with called me up and she's like, oh yeah, we're

01:44:21.080 --> 01:44:22.820
doing this, uh, ceremony in Mexico.

01:44:22.960 --> 01:44:23.900
And I'm like, oh, where's that?

01:44:23.910 --> 01:44:24.960
And she's like, oh, in this town.

01:44:25.080 --> 01:44:28.960
I'm like, well, strangely enough, you know, talking about synchronicity, if you want to

01:44:29.080 --> 01:44:34.780
drop into Coral Union and others, um, we're, that's where we are, you know?

01:44:34.900 --> 01:44:40.060
And, uh, so it was the perfect opportunity to go to this ceremony for both of us.

01:44:40.520 --> 01:44:47.900
And we went, um, the first couple of nights, um, he really struggled, which of course for

01:44:48.080 --> 01:44:50.340
someone struggling with substance abuse is pretty normal.

01:44:50.420 --> 01:44:55.960
So it was pretty dark and lots of vomiting and feeling very sick as the ayahuasca is

01:44:56.200 --> 01:45:00.880
working to heal that, which he has poisoned himself with, which in this case was alcohol.

01:45:02.060 --> 01:45:07.080
And, um, you know, we got into the third night and, and frankly, not much had been happening

01:45:07.240 --> 01:45:10.000
for me, which, you know, I've been doing ayahuasca for a number of years already.

01:45:10.060 --> 01:45:16.280
I was quite disappointed, especially, you know, given the, um, you know, the, the adepts that are

01:45:16.560 --> 01:45:21.860
shamanic level who were there. And, um, anyway, so I'm, I'm sitting there and I'm like, okay, well,

01:45:22.540 --> 01:45:27.020
third night, not much is happening. And why am I here? And while I'm really there for my friend,

01:45:27.150 --> 01:45:32.420
you know, like I was really wanting to support him. So I, I dropped into a meditation and let me just

01:45:32.450 --> 01:45:36.520
keep, just throw this out. Cause we haven't talked about it, but just being able to meditate.

01:45:37.720 --> 01:45:41.580
of course, which a lot of Westerners are not that familiar with or not good at,

01:45:42.100 --> 01:45:44.540
is a really important skill in terms of doing this work.

01:45:44.590 --> 01:45:48.040
Being able to sit completely still and be okay with a lot of weirdness

01:45:48.160 --> 01:45:50.940
and difficult things coming up, which may be physically uncomfortable,

01:45:51.800 --> 01:45:53.140
is a really important skill.

01:45:55.240 --> 01:46:00.000
So anyways, I'm sitting there and I'm meditating, opening my heart

01:46:01.320 --> 01:46:05.440
to just kind of share at a very vague kind of general level with my friend

01:46:05.460 --> 01:46:08.060
and really not having any expectation around that.

01:46:09.000 --> 01:46:11.600
And all of a sudden, I feel like within a couple of minutes,

01:46:12.360 --> 01:46:16.700
this massive surge of energy shoot up my spine and through my body.

01:46:17.580 --> 01:46:19.560
And he's sitting to my right, and all of a sudden,

01:46:19.680 --> 01:46:23.820
my right arm just spontaneously just reaches out and grabs his head,

01:46:24.460 --> 01:46:26.940
kind of similar to Vulcan mind-melt thing.

01:46:28.440 --> 01:46:32.360
And at that point, again, I've been doing psychedelics for quite some time,

01:46:32.450 --> 01:46:34.080
so I was like, okay, well, this is really weird.

01:46:34.160 --> 01:46:36.900
I don't know what this is, but I'm feeling okay with it.

01:46:36.960 --> 01:46:40.160
And I'm pretty good with, you know, just observing the weirdness.

01:46:41.180 --> 01:46:42.600
And so this is happening.

01:46:42.830 --> 01:46:48.080
And then all of a sudden, um, you know, my body starts to quake, my arm is quaking and,

01:46:48.220 --> 01:46:51.760
and, uh, my body's vibrating, but it's, it's very uncomfortable.

01:46:51.910 --> 01:46:55.220
The next thing I'm crying, my eyes are like, I'm sobbing.

01:46:55.220 --> 01:46:59.560
And there's just this profound grief pouring through me.

01:47:01.100 --> 01:47:02.520
And there's no story attached to it.

01:47:02.580 --> 01:47:07.120
I don't know what's going on, but I certainly am very aware of the emotion and, you know,

01:47:07.400 --> 01:47:09.940
tears streaming down my face and it's all very difficult.

01:47:11.480 --> 01:47:15.320
And while I'm holding this head, it's probably, you know, 20 minutes to half an hour.

01:47:15.440 --> 01:47:19.060
Of course, it's hard to be sure of time in this context, but it was, it was a fairly long

01:47:19.300 --> 01:47:21.180
time and eventually it ended.

01:47:21.860 --> 01:47:25.020
And, you know, there are lots of other stranger things that happened the night.

01:47:25.020 --> 01:47:27.860
I actually started breaking into fractal energetic yoga after that.

01:47:28.540 --> 01:47:31.900
Um, but of course the big question is, well, what was that about?

01:47:31.980 --> 01:47:36.880
So the next morning I asked my friend, you know, like, obviously we had this connection

01:47:37.020 --> 01:47:38.120
and this strange experience.

01:47:38.290 --> 01:47:39.300
What was it like for you?

01:47:40.260 --> 01:47:43.620
And he described how he had a daughter who died.

01:47:43.920 --> 01:47:47.820
I think she was about four or five from a disease and he was a physician.

01:47:49.040 --> 01:47:50.880
And, uh, so you can imagine, right?

01:47:51.000 --> 01:47:56.140
Like a physician not able to stop or prevent the death of his young daughter being a very

01:47:56.380 --> 01:47:57.540
difficult thing to go through.

01:47:58.620 --> 01:48:01.060
And, and he had never grieved that.

01:48:01.120 --> 01:48:14.280
That's what he told me, that he'd never grieved the death of his daughter and that this experience was the first time in his life, well over 20 years later, that he began to reach into the emotional grief around her death.

01:48:15.480 --> 01:48:17.880
And yeah, I mean, that's the depth of it, right?

01:48:17.920 --> 01:48:32.400
Like something, something in terms of our co-creative connection, if you want to describe it that way, um, really open something up and released something that was very difficult for him and obviously was held very deeply within him.

01:48:33.900 --> 01:48:40.440
Yeah, it's this, the shared purge thing is something that, um, that I find very interesting

01:48:40.580 --> 01:48:41.320
and have for a long time.

01:48:41.460 --> 01:48:49.080
I've also had a number of experiences in my life where I felt as though I was, I was grieving

01:48:49.140 --> 01:48:56.660
on behalf of someone else or their energy was moving through me and have had that person

01:48:56.940 --> 01:49:00.240
say later that they had that exact experience as well.

01:49:00.280 --> 01:49:11.580
that it was as if I was like my grief, my crying, my emoting was like helping lessen the load of

01:49:11.580 --> 01:49:17.500
how much they were moving. And I've also had the experience in reverse. So I think it's another

01:49:17.640 --> 01:49:23.520
expression of sort of what's beautiful and possible between us when we sort of are able to connect

01:49:23.620 --> 01:49:31.660
on that level. But when it comes to feeling things, processing things that are beyond

01:49:32.840 --> 01:49:41.200
me, we'll say, like the me, what of sort of heavy, we'll just say energetic stuff,

01:49:41.740 --> 01:49:47.380
energetic processing. I'm just using a broader term rather than emotions because emotions have

01:49:47.580 --> 01:49:53.600
lots of different ways in which they manifest, like lots of levels from cognitive to

01:49:53.600 --> 01:49:59.560
to social, to physical, to personal, you know. And so just saying energetically,

01:50:01.200 --> 01:50:08.600
what of material that's arising that not only goes beyond individual contents, it's not just

01:50:09.140 --> 01:50:16.660
my grief. And it goes even beyond sort of the grief, you know, use the example of your friend

01:50:16.880 --> 01:50:22.180
there, you know, and the grief of the death of their child. And it goes into sort of a

01:50:22.180 --> 01:50:28.820
transpersonal realm, when the individual or individuals in the mindmeld start to confront

01:50:28.920 --> 01:50:36.380
or be flooded by, I guess I'll use a term of like transpersonal material. What does that,

01:50:36.740 --> 01:50:42.280
like, is that possible? What does that look like? What are the sort of concerns and benefits

01:50:43.020 --> 01:50:46.120
to something like that in a psychedelic mindmeld?

01:50:48.700 --> 01:50:52.880
Well, that's a difficult question and I'll answer it the best I can.

01:50:53.000 --> 01:51:02.460
And I'm going to give some examples, but I want to be very clear that I'm not being definitive in terms of these experiences and what they may or may not be.

01:51:04.100 --> 01:51:17.940
So at a transpersonal level, I've connected, again, this is going to sound strange and I don't want to make much of it, connected to Gandhi or John Lennon and various characters.

01:51:18.400 --> 01:51:19.560
know, like well-known characters.

01:51:19.720 --> 01:51:23.340
And it's, it's one of those things that's really complicated because from an egoic point of

01:51:23.420 --> 01:51:26.960
view, it's like, Oh yeah, I connected to John Lennon or I connected to Gandhi.

01:51:27.180 --> 01:51:27.240
Right.

01:51:27.380 --> 01:51:32.000
And, you know, it's easy to turn that into some big inflated story.

01:51:33.040 --> 01:51:36.640
Um, and yet I'll just describe the experience, you know?

01:51:36.700 --> 01:51:42.100
And so whatever that is, I mean, I love John Lennon's music, you know, like I adore the

01:51:42.260 --> 01:51:42.360
music.

01:51:42.460 --> 01:51:45.320
So there's already an energetic connection, if you will.

01:51:46.100 --> 01:51:48.820
Um, because I just, you know, I, I loved the Beatles.

01:51:49.100 --> 01:51:50.200
I loved his solo stuff.

01:51:50.540 --> 01:51:55.300
And so, you know, what exactly am I connecting to when I'm going into this experience?

01:51:55.600 --> 01:51:59.720
And I, you know, I listed a bunch of possibilities before, so I'm not going to go through the

01:51:59.800 --> 01:52:00.100
list again.

01:52:01.040 --> 01:52:08.000
Um, but at an experiential level, it was like, there was this outstanding grief, um, that

01:52:08.120 --> 01:52:13.360
was associated with John Lennon, you know, the avatar we'll say of John Lennon and, and

01:52:13.360 --> 01:52:17.800
I'm processing that, you know, and it's like this fractal energetic yoga and there's lots

01:52:17.800 --> 01:52:20.980
of movement of the body and I'm profoundly crying.

01:52:21.320 --> 01:52:27.340
And, and I, frankly, I don't know exactly why, like there was no immediate story as

01:52:27.340 --> 01:52:29.100
it was attached to John Lennon's life.

01:52:29.100 --> 01:52:32.900
And yet it was like this, you know, John Lennon, so to speak was present.

01:52:33.800 --> 01:52:36.940
And I've had that, you know, it happened for a variety of characters.

01:52:37.140 --> 01:52:40.200
You know, I, I mentioned Gandhi, uh, again, this King David thing.

01:52:40.320 --> 01:52:44.600
I mean, that one's thrown me for a loop because, um, that showed up a number of

01:52:44.760 --> 01:52:49.340
times, uh, years ago and it was, you know, so I read, let me also be clear.

01:52:49.640 --> 01:52:52.340
Like, so when I was about 19, I read the Bible from cover to cover.

01:52:52.380 --> 01:52:56.980
I had this whole thing of being concerned about, you know, whether heaven and hell

01:52:57.060 --> 01:52:57.900
was really a thing.

01:52:58.120 --> 01:53:02.180
And, you know, for quite many, many years I was like, yeah, it's not a thing after

01:53:02.260 --> 01:53:04.220
reading how poorly written the Bible was.

01:53:04.360 --> 01:53:07.100
Like there's a lot of wisdom in it, you know, like I have to say, it's a pretty

01:53:07.280 --> 01:53:07.800
amazing book.

01:53:08.520 --> 01:53:14.920
Um, but if, you know, if you think of it, you know, a lot of Christians see, well, it was ordained and created by God in a sense, you know, through man.

01:53:15.060 --> 01:53:19.400
And when you read it compared to especially modern literature, it's not all that well written.

01:53:19.620 --> 01:53:22.060
It's, you know, has its issues.

01:53:22.620 --> 01:53:25.740
Uh, but the point being is that I read it, uh, many, many years ago.

01:53:26.520 --> 01:53:36.440
Uh, of course I would have known who King David was, but what was interesting was that, you know, I, I, you know, don't well remember many, you know, decades later, the details of what I read.

01:53:37.280 --> 01:53:42.020
And, uh, and in one session in particular, it was like, there was this whole thing with,

01:53:42.180 --> 01:53:45.900
uh, David having wronged the Hittites, you know, it was very specific.

01:53:46.140 --> 01:53:47.840
And I, you know, I couldn't remember what that was.

01:53:47.840 --> 01:53:49.500
I had to go back to the Bible and look that up.

01:53:49.780 --> 01:53:57.140
And David ultimately was responsible for, um, murdering, um, you know, at a distance,

01:53:57.660 --> 01:54:04.460
one of his, uh, generals, uh, who was basically married to a woman that he ended up, um,

01:54:05.000 --> 01:54:06.980
sleeping with, having an affair with.

01:54:07.040 --> 01:54:12.900
And, and that was coming through and I, it was just the strangest thing for me, like processing that at an energetic level.

01:54:12.940 --> 01:54:17.980
And that was very specific about, you know, an event that had happened in the past.

01:54:18.500 --> 01:54:32.220
And, uh, yeah, so there's a transpersonal piece there again, you know, like, and I think the most likely possibility again, given that we can transcend time and space and we're connected to the all, so to speak, um, is yeah.

01:54:32.260 --> 01:54:36.000
dropping into, um, another person's life.

01:54:36.310 --> 01:54:39.180
You know, it's just that that's, that's possibly a thing.

01:54:39.530 --> 01:54:42.140
And it's not like I'm the only person saying this kind of thing, right?

01:54:42.260 --> 01:54:47.000
Like there's others who have dropped into the energies we'll say of other

01:54:47.740 --> 01:54:52.680
characters and whether that's at a truly personal level or at the archetypal

01:54:52.770 --> 01:54:56.720
level. I mean, I think that's a mystery and I'm not going to be definitive

01:54:56.920 --> 01:55:00.580
about any of it because there is so much mystery around it. Um,

01:55:01.160 --> 01:55:19.740
But another story, you know, if you think still of the transpersonal on a grander scale, you know, I've dropped into, you know, I mentioned genocide in the book, but I, more recently, I dropped into the sexual abuse of so many people in Thailand, you know, women, of course.

01:55:20.700 --> 01:55:26.320
And, you know, it's one of those things I, you know, went to school in Thailand for a brief period of time.

01:55:27.040 --> 01:55:28.580
I'm familiar with the country.

01:55:30.820 --> 01:55:35.380
And, of course, all of the horrors associated with the sex trade in Thailand,

01:55:35.520 --> 01:55:38.640
which strangely is a culturally accepted thing,

01:55:38.660 --> 01:55:42.160
which has a very long history before the sexual tourism.

01:55:42.400 --> 01:55:46.360
So it's something that is very deeply ingrained within the culture,

01:55:47.260 --> 01:55:49.860
stretching back potentially hundreds of years.

01:55:52.120 --> 01:55:53.440
And somehow I tuned into that.

01:55:53.560 --> 01:55:56.580
Is that because I had been to Thailand and was familiar with it?

01:55:57.540 --> 01:56:00.340
Or is this something at an art type level for whatever reason?

01:56:00.460 --> 01:56:03.080
Maybe I was touched by something at an energetic level.

01:56:03.800 --> 01:56:04.620
Let me just be clear.

01:56:04.630 --> 01:56:07.580
I never engaged with prostitution while I was there.

01:56:08.920 --> 01:56:11.280
And yet, of course, it's floating in the ether of Thailand.

01:56:12.100 --> 01:56:13.800
It's out there more generally in the world.

01:56:13.920 --> 01:56:23.120
But Thailand is a pretty central place for sexual deviancy, particularly for white middle-aged men.

01:56:23.240 --> 01:56:30.020
um and so you know is it possible that i i touched into something just having been in the country

01:56:31.020 --> 01:56:35.800
um and then it's yeah like just something i i'm going through maybe there's some some internal

01:56:36.040 --> 01:56:42.080
part of me that needed to be clearing or healed is related to to that that i don't understand in

01:56:42.120 --> 01:56:46.880
terms of my own unconscious so again a variety of possibility but wow like when i'm in that

01:56:47.140 --> 01:56:52.020
experience it's like and i and i ended up verbalizing it out loud like too many penises

01:56:52.060 --> 01:56:56.460
too many penises. It's just like, because, you know, it's one of those things I had a female

01:56:56.720 --> 01:57:01.420
healer say to me many years ago, if men could just keep their penises in their pants, you know,

01:57:01.430 --> 01:57:04.960
what a different world we could have. And it's true. You know, it's true.

01:57:10.160 --> 01:57:14.980
So let's, let's, let's jump back a bit because we were talking about some of the things that can go

01:57:14.980 --> 01:57:22.140
wrong with respect to, you know, sexual energy being present in the session and just be it

01:57:23.080 --> 01:57:30.040
personal skill, personal disposition, or on the structural level of what did or didn't happen to

01:57:30.160 --> 01:57:36.140
prepare for a session. The sexual energy can come in and complicate things and to the point of

01:57:36.540 --> 01:57:43.200
causing significant problems. But outside of that, what are some of the other things that could

01:57:43.740 --> 01:57:51.140
maybe go wrong here um what are some of the other things that might come up that could send a session

01:57:51.520 --> 01:57:59.460
from really constructive and positive even if challenging to possibly damaging or um

01:58:00.620 --> 01:58:10.000
cause causing or creating injury in in participants yeah well yeah one for sure is psychosis right so

01:58:11.940 --> 01:58:17.020
So it's one of those things where with psychedelics, there is some risk, right?

01:58:17.180 --> 01:58:19.300
It's not like psychedelics are risk-free.

01:58:20.360 --> 01:58:31.660
Now, you know, people like Groff and others like him have done a ton of scientific research on psychedelics used in therapeutic settings predominantly.

01:58:31.920 --> 01:58:37.660
And a lot of this research, as you know, reaches back to the 50s and 60s, and, you know, it's just starting again now.

01:58:38.840 --> 01:58:42.660
But when you look at, and you have to remember that this research is big, right?

01:58:42.740 --> 01:58:50.620
Like the thousands and thousands of case studies and, you know, clients and experimentation.

01:58:51.140 --> 01:58:55.440
So it's not like we don't have a sense of what can really happen in a psychedelic session.

01:58:56.480 --> 01:58:57.420
There's lots of data.

01:58:58.040 --> 01:59:00.140
And one of those things is psychosis.

01:59:00.380 --> 01:59:04.020
Now, of course, it's very rare that people end up in psychosis.

01:59:05.000 --> 01:59:11.960
And even much more rare that if someone doesn't have a predisposition to psychosis, that they can end up in psychosis.

01:59:13.700 --> 01:59:15.140
And, uh, yeah.

01:59:15.340 --> 01:59:18.480
So all of a sudden someone's drops in and they're in psychosis.

01:59:18.740 --> 01:59:20.740
You're in a session with them and it's just the two of you.

01:59:21.680 --> 01:59:25.200
Um, and they want to run out the house, maybe naked.

01:59:26.080 --> 01:59:26.260
Right.

01:59:26.580 --> 01:59:28.540
Into, let's say a suburb or something like that.

01:59:29.560 --> 01:59:31.260
Well, now you have a situation, right?

01:59:31.400 --> 01:59:35.680
Because the dominant society is like, wow, there's a person running down the street naked.

01:59:35.880 --> 01:59:36.860
Let's phone the police.

01:59:37.460 --> 01:59:42.140
And, you know, depending on the circumstance, that's probably the appropriate thing to do if you're an outsider looking in, right?

01:59:42.440 --> 01:59:42.720
Yeah.

01:59:43.700 --> 01:59:44.560
Something's not right.

01:59:46.500 --> 01:59:50.640
But wow, talk about traumatizing to the person who's going through it.

01:59:51.260 --> 01:59:52.340
You know, this is the thing.

01:59:52.430 --> 01:59:56.260
Like, you know, I've looked into this a lot in terms of the nature of psychosis.

01:59:56.430 --> 01:59:59.680
And I have a lot of friends who are psychologists and the like.

02:00:00.800 --> 02:00:04.320
and have seen psychosis with psychedelics.

02:00:04.330 --> 02:00:08.000
And usually what's happening for the person who's going through it

02:00:08.000 --> 02:00:10.600
is actually they're going through a form of egoic death

02:00:11.280 --> 02:00:13.040
or some type of mass confusion.

02:00:13.340 --> 02:00:16.920
Often there's an associated feeling that the whole world is going to end,

02:00:18.300 --> 02:00:21.460
which is the typical egoic death or shamanic death.

02:00:21.470 --> 02:00:22.880
So it's not an unusual experience.

02:00:22.970 --> 02:00:26.860
But some people, because they're not capable of sitting with that,

02:00:26.970 --> 02:00:29.100
have a really negative reaction to that,

02:00:29.220 --> 02:00:35.540
And they drop into the psychosis as a trigger from that and completely divorce themselves from reality.

02:00:36.200 --> 02:00:40.660
Where it may be possible that you're talking to the person and they can't even understand or know that you're talking to them.

02:00:40.700 --> 02:00:42.200
And they can't communicate back to you.

02:00:42.200 --> 02:00:43.700
I mean, of course, that's how bad it can get.

02:00:44.480 --> 02:00:46.620
But you can imagine from the internal experience.

02:00:47.380 --> 02:00:49.100
And again, I haven't had this happen to myself.

02:00:49.600 --> 02:00:56.520
In terms of the full psychosis, I've gone through many shamanic deaths, but kind of went through and got out the other side without a problem.

02:00:58.040 --> 02:01:03.240
But for those who struggle, um, again, it's this idea that the world is ending.

02:01:03.620 --> 02:01:09.600
And so if they're confined in a space, which may be a very safe place, often they'd want

02:01:09.620 --> 02:01:13.100
to bolt because they want to escape from that feeling.

02:01:13.580 --> 02:01:19.100
Ultimately it's a feeling, uh, of the implosion of everything around them, their world.

02:01:20.940 --> 02:01:25.960
And yeah, so now it's like, okay, so you now, now again, with the two people, someone's

02:01:25.980 --> 02:01:31.940
dropping into psychosis. And now you're someone who is, you know, in deep with the psychedelic.

02:01:31.940 --> 02:01:36.420
And again, I think this speaks to why this is such an advanced practice. But I would say that

02:01:36.720 --> 02:01:41.460
generally working with psychedelics is tricky because again, this could happen to anybody at

02:01:41.560 --> 02:01:44.900
any time. I mean, there's the proverbial, like I mentioned, you know, the high school student that

02:01:44.980 --> 02:01:50.960
goes to a roller coaster park and take psychedelics. Well, wow, if you want to really attempt psychosis,

02:01:51.280 --> 02:01:52.180
That's one, right?

02:01:53.510 --> 02:01:58.620
But now you have this experience where you're, you know, now you have to take on this responsibility of care for the other person.

02:02:00.140 --> 02:02:04.500
And, you know, I mentioned the various tools, you know, trying to talk to them.

02:02:04.510 --> 02:02:13.440
And if they can even hear you, to remind them that psychedelic, you know, okay, so it's like you came over, we took a psychedelic together a few hours ago.

02:02:15.740 --> 02:02:18.480
We're currently, you know, we're feeling the effects of that.

02:02:18.640 --> 02:02:24.940
And within, you know, whatever it is, a couple hours, three, four hours, that psychedelic's going to wear off and everything's going to return to normal.

02:02:25.620 --> 02:02:28.940
Which for almost everybody having this type of psychosis is true.

02:02:29.260 --> 02:02:32.500
I mean, there are very rare examples where the psychosis continues.

02:02:33.900 --> 02:02:35.700
Again, that's one of the risks with psychedelics.

02:02:37.820 --> 02:02:42.560
But, you know, trying to normalize everything, create a safe space.

02:02:44.280 --> 02:02:46.880
Remember, you know, we are telepathic beings.

02:02:46.960 --> 02:02:52.940
So, you know, trying to bring a calmness to yourself in order that that's being mirrored

02:02:53.540 --> 02:02:58.900
or you're trying to get them to mirror that calmness, um, I think is really an important

02:02:59.120 --> 02:02:59.620
piece of that.

02:03:00.320 --> 02:03:07.380
Um, possibly, you know, like bringing them back to their breath and it's like, okay,

02:03:07.500 --> 02:03:10.800
try breathing, focus on the breathing or just kind of repeating that.

02:03:11.440 --> 02:03:16.200
Um, depending on the situation, it might be good to put, you know, uh, your hand on their

02:03:16.200 --> 02:03:20.000
upper chest to help them feel their own breath because a lot of people aren't going to be

02:03:20.760 --> 02:03:24.100
necessarily good at relating to their breath, unfortunately.

02:03:25.560 --> 02:03:26.680
So yeah, there's a variety of steps.

02:03:26.750 --> 02:03:30.760
I go through those in the book in terms of dealing with these types of emergencies.

02:03:32.800 --> 02:03:36.880
And again, yeah, you know, like I think, you know, you've read the book, you have a sense

02:03:37.000 --> 02:03:42.260
like I want to be completely transparent with all of the amazing things that we can access

02:03:42.450 --> 02:03:43.280
with psychedelics.

02:03:43.440 --> 02:03:51.740
But man, there are some big challenges out there and things as unlikely as it is to go wrong, they can go wrong and be ready for it.

02:03:53.100 --> 02:03:58.860
Yeah, I mean, truly, even in smaller doses, things can go awry.

02:03:58.870 --> 02:04:06.940
But the higher the dose becomes, the more sort of chaos energy you're introducing and the more extreme things can get.

02:04:08.120 --> 02:04:16.720
So with that, this is the final question, which is, do you have any words of caution or advice?

02:04:17.100 --> 02:04:24.280
Like, I don't want anyone to think in listening to this podcast that there's any encouragement to try this out.

02:04:24.540 --> 02:04:28.880
This is a sort of purely conversation about the phenomenon.

02:04:29.160 --> 02:04:35.060
It's not necessarily a how-to guide or a sort of thumbs up, give it a go kind of thing.

02:04:36.140 --> 02:04:39.360
But the reality is people listen to stuff and they're like, that seems interesting.

02:04:40.100 --> 02:04:42.880
And they maybe do or do not want to explore.

02:04:44.040 --> 02:04:49.920
Do you have any pieces of advice or caution for people other than reading your book, which

02:04:49.920 --> 02:04:55.900
I think would be an excellent piece of advice for anyone even remotely interested in exploring

02:04:55.980 --> 02:04:58.400
this kind of thing, let alone just knowing more about it.

02:05:00.360 --> 02:05:03.860
Any pieces of caution or advice for people who are listening to this podcast going like,

02:05:04.020 --> 02:05:05.180
oh, I'm interested in that.

02:05:06.760 --> 02:05:10.080
you know, it's a tricky one, right? Because, you know, like introducing the book is,

02:05:10.240 --> 02:05:14.180
it's a bit of a double-edged sword on the one hand. Uh, like you're saying, you know,

02:05:14.320 --> 02:05:18.880
someone might listen to this podcast, not bother with the book, like, Hey, this is a cool thing.

02:05:18.980 --> 02:05:23.880
You know, like, I'm just going to sit and meditate with my friend over here and let's just see what

02:05:24.160 --> 02:05:29.620
happens, you know? And, um, so there is that thing, you know, and that, and I, and I strongly

02:05:29.640 --> 02:05:36.300
recommend against doing that um and you know taking this work very seriously i do consider it

02:05:36.420 --> 02:05:43.260
work um you know in some ways it reaches into shamanic work and i i don't self-identify as a

02:05:43.380 --> 02:05:47.900
shaman but there are shamanic elements to it and let's face it shamans go through long

02:05:48.140 --> 02:05:55.480
apprenticeships and and do a lot of work to uh become who they are um and so yeah like in terms of

02:05:56.280 --> 02:06:03.000
doing this type of work. It's to have familiarity with psychedelics generally,

02:06:04.440 --> 02:06:07.740
to have a lot of experience, especially with the ones that you're going to be using and

02:06:08.480 --> 02:06:11.680
the doses that are going to be used. So that's an important piece.

02:06:12.780 --> 02:06:16.840
Reading the book, I think, is really important. I mean, it's like put it out there to help people

02:06:17.060 --> 02:06:21.460
navigate these things. And like we talked about earlier, I think a lot of people have had these

02:06:21.480 --> 02:06:24.720
experiences and they're, and they, they're, they're generally spontaneous.

02:06:24.870 --> 02:06:25.920
I think we can induce them.

02:06:26.040 --> 02:06:27.060
That's the point of the book as well.

02:06:27.160 --> 02:06:28.980
But so often it's a spontaneous thing.

02:06:29.030 --> 02:06:31.980
And certainly that's what it was for me when I started.

02:06:32.860 --> 02:06:37.620
Um, but it's like, yeah, how do we navigate this carefully and in a meaningful way?

02:06:38.910 --> 02:06:45.660
Um, keeping in mind that, um, at a psychic level, um, people can, can drop into darkness

02:06:45.900 --> 02:06:49.980
too, you know, and it's one of those things where, you know, there's going to be certain

02:06:50.000 --> 02:06:55.820
people, particularly Christians and other religions that are fearful of sorcery.

02:06:55.930 --> 02:06:59.240
And yet, at a human level, we're all sorcerers.

02:06:59.420 --> 02:07:05.080
If I have a negative thought and say negative things in a gossipy way about a friend of mine

02:07:05.150 --> 02:07:07.640
or a work colleague, I'm practicing sorcery.

02:07:07.720 --> 02:07:10.000
I'm sending a negative energy into the world.

02:07:13.320 --> 02:07:16.060
Unconsciously, we could say, but it is a real phenomenon.

02:07:16.270 --> 02:07:19.100
And then, of course, psychedelics are amplifiers.

02:07:19.400 --> 02:07:22.620
So there's the potential to amplify that.

02:07:22.780 --> 02:07:32.420
So on the one hand, we can drop into healing and love, but a nefarious narcissist could go in a very different way.

02:07:32.420 --> 02:07:43.700
And that's, again, why we have to be very careful in terms of who we work with and that we can trust them, that they're not a narcissist, that they don't want to screw with our minds and that they have positive intentions.

02:07:44.760 --> 02:07:46.300
So there are those layers.

02:07:46.500 --> 02:07:48.520
So, yeah, there's a lot of caution out there.

02:07:48.860 --> 02:07:56.280
And to remind people that this is an advanced practice, not just to kind of willy-nilly, yeah, whatever, I'll give this a go.

02:07:56.420 --> 02:07:58.660
So it's, no, take this very seriously.

02:07:59.120 --> 02:08:11.260
And it offers a lot of really potent things in terms of, you know, who we are as humans, what we can experience in terms of exploring consciousness and the experience of consciousness itself.

02:08:11.480 --> 02:08:16.260
So I think it offers some wonder to who we are as a species.

02:08:16.560 --> 02:08:20.060
But yeah, there's a lot of things to be careful and cautious of.

02:08:21.240 --> 02:08:22.020
Thank you for that.

02:08:23.100 --> 02:08:26.440
Where can people buy your book?

02:08:26.530 --> 02:08:29.120
Where can people buy The Psychedelic Mindmeld?

02:08:30.860 --> 02:08:33.720
Yeah, so it's published by Inner Traditions,

02:08:33.930 --> 02:08:36.580
Sino Park Street Press, so you can get it directly from them.

02:08:37.680 --> 02:08:39.040
And of course, it's available online.

02:08:39.760 --> 02:08:42.920
Simon & Schuster is the publisher, so anywhere that they distribute.

02:08:44.180 --> 02:08:51.640
And yeah, I mean, there's Amazon and Barnes & Noble, and I should probably have the list memorized, but I don't.

02:08:52.240 --> 02:08:53.040
But yeah, it's out there.

02:08:53.140 --> 02:08:54.720
Just go online and do a search.

02:08:54.920 --> 02:08:55.340
You'll find it.

02:08:56.600 --> 02:08:59.200
And then the other, sorry, just the other piece of that.

02:09:00.040 --> 02:09:01.800
Yeah, people are welcome to contact me.

02:09:03.100 --> 02:09:11.600
Certainly for looking to the future, another book I would like to write is a series of stories of other people's experiences.

02:09:12.100 --> 02:09:16.760
So I have my Facebook page, which is Wade Richardson.

02:09:17.850 --> 02:09:18.980
So you can find me there.

02:09:19.180 --> 02:09:21.160
And I'd love it if you shared stories with me.

02:09:21.160 --> 02:09:26.100
And of course, there's also the Psychedelic mindmeld as a group within Facebook.

02:09:26.680 --> 02:09:31.520
But I'm promoting people sharing stories of telepathy.

02:09:33.040 --> 02:09:40.800
Well, your Facebook page and the, I mean, if there's a group link, I assume it's a private group to sign up.

02:09:40.940 --> 02:09:46.020
I'll make sure whatever relevant links are in the show notes to this episode, wherever people are checking it out.

02:09:47.040 --> 02:09:49.020
And Wade, I really appreciate your time today.

02:09:49.020 --> 02:09:59.360
I appreciate your book and its contribution to the sort of larger exploration of consciousness, psychedelics, and otherwise.

02:09:59.880 --> 02:10:02.340
And I really, really enjoyed our conversation today.

02:10:02.410 --> 02:10:02.680
Thank you.

02:10:03.580 --> 02:10:04.840
Yeah, well, thanks for inviting me, James.

02:10:05.080 --> 02:10:06.700
And I've always appreciated your work.

02:10:06.780 --> 02:10:10.740
I mean, as you mentioned at the beginning, some of your work is referenced in the book.

02:10:10.840 --> 02:10:28.580
And so, yeah, I really appreciate the work you're doing, not only with the writing, but also your podcast in terms of getting, you know, really good information out there in terms of a broader sense of who we are as human beings and our psychology, the shadow elements and how to maturely approach the use of psychedelics.

02:10:29.600 --> 02:10:30.900
Thanks for saying that.

02:10:31.000 --> 02:10:31.640
I'd appreciate it, man.

02:10:33.040 --> 02:10:34.780
And on that, we are, we're done.

02:10:35.120 --> 02:10:36.580
So we'll cut.

02:10:40.120 --> 02:10:40.560
Okay.

02:10:40.640 --> 02:10:45.960
Hey, that was episode 199 of Adventures to the Mind featuring Wade Richardson.

02:10:46.610 --> 02:10:51.680
The title of this book, again, is the psychedelic mindmeld telepathically exploring shared

02:10:52.080 --> 02:10:56.260
consciousness, and you can get it on all major book outlets.

02:10:57.800 --> 02:10:59.040
Brick and mortar is king.

02:10:59.230 --> 02:11:01.220
So get in there, support your local bookstores.

02:11:01.330 --> 02:11:02.320
I'm sure they can order it.

02:11:02.380 --> 02:11:06.020
It's through a major publishing house or any of the online distributors.

02:11:06.960 --> 02:11:08.840
And yeah, really excellent book.

02:11:09.080 --> 02:11:09.940
Would highly recommend.

02:11:10.540 --> 02:11:16.440
Um, if you'd like to follow Wade online, the links that he gave for his socials will be

02:11:16.500 --> 02:11:21.500
in the, either the description of this episode or in the show notes at jameswjesso.com, which

02:11:21.740 --> 02:11:23.960
will be linked in the description of this episode.

02:11:25.140 --> 02:11:30.040
And if you'd like to follow or connect with me, you can do so via Blue Sky, Instagram,

02:11:31.620 --> 02:11:36.600
Substack, and I have a telegram group and an email newsletter, and links to all of that

02:11:36.640 --> 02:11:38.640
will be in the description to this episode as well.

02:11:38.840 --> 02:11:40.960
So come follow me on those spaces.

02:11:42.340 --> 02:11:45.400
I release clips and posts and little video stuff.

02:11:45.920 --> 02:11:49.100
And I try to be online as best I can.

02:11:50.120 --> 02:11:53.320
Social media, look, social media is not really my strong suit.

02:11:53.450 --> 02:11:55.940
In fact, I could say that it's actually my weak point,

02:11:56.220 --> 02:11:59.160
not only in the sense of producing social media content,

02:11:59.880 --> 02:12:03.440
but in the sense of, or like regularly putting stuff out,

02:12:03.770 --> 02:12:07.920
but also in the sense of like, I'm jelly when I get on there.

02:12:08.100 --> 02:12:11.740
Like they got me, you know, like hooked right in the gullet.

02:12:12.380 --> 02:12:13.580
They're just pulling me along.

02:12:13.640 --> 02:12:14.660
The algorithm has me.

02:12:14.840 --> 02:12:20.480
So I try not to go on there very often because of its impact on my attention and my time and

02:12:20.480 --> 02:12:21.280
my mental health.

02:12:22.460 --> 02:12:24.320
So I do put stuff out on social.

02:12:24.420 --> 02:12:29.380
So follow me there if you can, if you manage to get on there and with self-control and

02:12:29.820 --> 02:12:30.880
holy goodness, good for you.

02:12:31.540 --> 02:12:32.560
That's a big accomplishment.

02:12:34.180 --> 02:12:38.960
And otherwise, email newsletter is the best or substack once I start making one.

02:12:40.500 --> 02:12:40.860
That's it.

02:12:41.680 --> 02:12:47.480
I hope you may have noticed I am maybe a little bit more meandering today,

02:12:47.680 --> 02:12:53.060
a little bit more verbose, a little bit less brevity, brevitus, bravato.

02:12:55.940 --> 02:12:57.020
Not much bravado here.

02:12:58.600 --> 02:13:00.840
Yeah, I've been this particular episode.

02:13:01.160 --> 02:13:04.020
I'm trying to get back to being a little less formulaic.

02:13:05.020 --> 02:13:06.840
I feel like that started to take over a bit.

02:13:08.260 --> 02:13:10.760
And hopefully, A, you received that well.

02:13:11.760 --> 02:13:14.580
And B, refer back to A.

02:13:15.800 --> 02:13:16.320
And that's all.

02:13:16.710 --> 02:13:17.580
Thanks for tuning in.

02:13:17.960 --> 02:13:19.660
Next episode is going to be episode 200.

02:13:19.750 --> 02:13:21.600
I got something special lined up for you.

02:13:21.600 --> 02:13:24.940
So if you're not already subscribed, do so so you catch it.

02:13:26.420 --> 02:13:29.840
And that is all for this episode of Adventures to the Mind.

02:13:29.980 --> 02:13:32.020
Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end.

02:13:32.580 --> 02:13:34.480
I've been your host, as always, James W. Jesso.

02:13:35.400 --> 02:13:45.180
And it's been a pleasure sharing the non-local, digitally facilitated, shared awareness of

02:13:46.060 --> 02:13:53.540
content consumption and enjoyments here on this podcast or something like that.

02:13:54.960 --> 02:13:57.940
Until the next episode, take care and stay curious.

02:14:27.320 --> 02:14:27.680
us.