1 00:00:00,020 --> 00:00:06,810 Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode of the way the world works. 2 00:00:06,810 --> 00:00:11,570 So as you guys know, I fall into these history rabbit holes every now and then and then I 3 00:00:11,570 --> 00:00:14,810 get to come share what I've learned with you guys. 4 00:00:14,810 --> 00:00:16,890 So I want to continue talking about amendments. 5 00:00:16,890 --> 00:00:22,210 We do that every so often, but instead of going into everything in the eighth amendment, 6 00:00:22,210 --> 00:00:26,010 which is what we're going to talk about today, I want to talk about a very specific clause. 7 00:00:26,010 --> 00:00:29,770 And of course, a clause means like a part of it, right? 8 00:00:29,770 --> 00:00:30,770 It's part of it. 9 00:00:30,770 --> 00:00:34,810 You hear a lot of like, there's the takings clause and there's the equal protections clause. 10 00:00:34,810 --> 00:00:38,610 So there's all these clauses in these different amendments and in the eighth amendment, there 11 00:00:38,610 --> 00:00:41,570 is one called the excessive fines clause. 12 00:00:41,570 --> 00:00:44,810 And I remember thinking like, oh, these seem kind of boring. 13 00:00:44,810 --> 00:00:47,050 Who cares about the excessive fines clause? 14 00:00:47,050 --> 00:00:48,450 You know, let's get into the good stuff. 15 00:00:48,450 --> 00:00:50,410 Let's get into the fourth amendment. 16 00:00:50,410 --> 00:00:55,810 But honestly, excessive fines is really cool because it has a really cool history and my 17 00:00:55,810 --> 00:00:56,810 cool history. 18 00:00:56,810 --> 00:00:58,490 I mean, a history that's pretty wild. 19 00:00:58,490 --> 00:01:00,290 So we're going to jump into that today. 20 00:01:00,290 --> 00:01:04,330 So as you probably know already, if you've been listening to this podcast, you know that 21 00:01:04,330 --> 00:01:08,210 a lot of our rights have stories rooted in England, right? 22 00:01:08,210 --> 00:01:14,170 Because the founders, they didn't revolt against the king of England because all of a sudden 23 00:01:14,170 --> 00:01:17,370 they decided that there are these new rights nobody had ever heard of before. 24 00:01:17,370 --> 00:01:23,050 No, there were actually rights established in Britain that people were supposed to have 25 00:01:23,050 --> 00:01:24,450 that weren't happening. 26 00:01:24,490 --> 00:01:29,330 And then you go back to things like Magna Carta, which laid out these very specific the king 27 00:01:29,330 --> 00:01:30,930 cannot do. 28 00:01:30,930 --> 00:01:34,210 And then you had the English Bill of Rights that happens later. 29 00:01:34,210 --> 00:01:38,930 And so there are all these examples of what the king was not supposed to be able to do, 30 00:01:38,930 --> 00:01:40,730 but he was doing it anyway. 31 00:01:40,730 --> 00:01:42,210 And so you get into that. 32 00:01:42,210 --> 00:01:43,850 And that is why the colonists were so mad. 33 00:01:43,850 --> 00:01:46,290 I mean, there were lots of reasons, but that was one of them. 34 00:01:46,290 --> 00:01:48,450 So excessive fines is one of those. 35 00:01:48,450 --> 00:01:49,970 So let's tell a story. 36 00:01:50,290 --> 00:01:55,930 All right, so our story starts 800 years ago, okay, and it's going to have to do with King 37 00:01:55,930 --> 00:01:56,930 John. 38 00:01:56,930 --> 00:01:59,010 I want to say, I want to preface this by saying a few things. 39 00:01:59,010 --> 00:02:01,210 So I am like a Magna Carta fiend. 40 00:02:01,210 --> 00:02:02,730 I love reading about it. 41 00:02:02,730 --> 00:02:04,450 I love reading all these different books. 42 00:02:04,450 --> 00:02:07,610 And one thing people have never really settled on. 43 00:02:07,610 --> 00:02:10,970 And I've gone back and forth on this in other episodes, but I want to make it very clear 44 00:02:10,970 --> 00:02:13,570 that there's no clear consensus. 45 00:02:13,570 --> 00:02:19,690 Some people believe this King John to be the one that is featured in Robinhood, but that's 46 00:02:19,730 --> 00:02:22,570 not a real historical story, but it's taken from that time. 47 00:02:22,570 --> 00:02:26,410 And just to show you like what kind of King King John was, if you've ever seen the cartoon, 48 00:02:26,410 --> 00:02:31,010 which is a classic, but then I've been reading other books where they say it wasn't, I don't 49 00:02:31,010 --> 00:02:32,010 know for sure. 50 00:02:32,010 --> 00:02:35,130 And so I want to make sure that I say, I don't know for sure, but there is some evidence to 51 00:02:35,130 --> 00:02:38,290 say that it was, but we're going to talk about that King John today. 52 00:02:38,290 --> 00:02:40,490 And he is not a cool dude. 53 00:02:40,490 --> 00:02:42,090 He's just he has no chill guys. 54 00:02:42,090 --> 00:02:43,250 He's got no chill. 55 00:02:43,250 --> 00:02:45,370 So let's talk about it. 56 00:02:45,370 --> 00:02:50,730 So King John had this buddy named William, okay, William is one of his barons. 57 00:02:50,730 --> 00:02:55,490 And in those days, what a baron meant is the King would kind of rent out his land to these 58 00:02:55,490 --> 00:02:59,770 barons who then had serfs and other people work that land. 59 00:02:59,770 --> 00:03:04,290 So it was the feudal system, not great, not great, but the landowners were actually how 60 00:03:04,290 --> 00:03:07,770 we got a lot of the rights we have today because they stood up to the King. 61 00:03:07,770 --> 00:03:12,810 They were the ones who had the rights back then, which again, right should be for everybody 62 00:03:12,810 --> 00:03:13,810 who was born. 63 00:03:13,890 --> 00:03:15,610 Later on, but you get it. 64 00:03:15,610 --> 00:03:20,810 So there was a time when the so Prince, she was Prince John then, but King John and his 65 00:03:20,810 --> 00:03:27,370 nephew, they were both vying for title to the throne because the old King had died. 66 00:03:27,370 --> 00:03:34,010 And so there was like a there was a some discrepancy on which one of them was the true air because 67 00:03:34,010 --> 00:03:37,330 they both had a pretty good claim, right? 68 00:03:37,330 --> 00:03:42,250 So King, the King needs King John needs a lot of support to officially like get that 69 00:03:42,250 --> 00:03:43,250 title. 70 00:03:43,290 --> 00:03:44,490 He did get it. 71 00:03:44,490 --> 00:03:49,090 And one of the reasons he got it was one of his barons, William, had his back and helps 72 00:03:49,090 --> 00:03:54,010 like not campaign for him in a sense of politicians, but he was like, tell like he had his support. 73 00:03:54,010 --> 00:03:56,850 He's like, all right, guys, like we need to support King John. 74 00:03:56,850 --> 00:03:57,850 He's going to get us done. 75 00:03:57,850 --> 00:03:59,650 You know, he's had our babble bomb. 76 00:03:59,650 --> 00:04:02,250 So William and John become pretty close, right? 77 00:04:02,250 --> 00:04:07,930 Their buddies and everyone recognizes William is actually like one of King John's right hand 78 00:04:07,930 --> 00:04:08,930 men. 79 00:04:08,930 --> 00:04:11,650 So story gets a little weirder though. 80 00:04:11,650 --> 00:04:15,730 So after John gets the throne, there is some civil war. 81 00:04:15,730 --> 00:04:20,610 There's some some spats going on because the people that wanted the nephew who was only 82 00:04:20,610 --> 00:04:25,810 15 at the time, they didn't want Prince or King John, sorry, to have the throne and King 83 00:04:25,810 --> 00:04:27,130 John couldn't just let it go. 84 00:04:27,130 --> 00:04:32,210 So there was some back and forth and it always happens when people are fighting for titles. 85 00:04:32,210 --> 00:04:33,210 But so this happened. 86 00:04:33,210 --> 00:04:39,590 So one day, this 15 year old nephew, all of a sudden just disappears and is never heard 87 00:04:39,590 --> 00:04:40,750 from again. 88 00:04:40,750 --> 00:04:44,350 And everybody is pretty sure that John did it right there. 89 00:04:44,350 --> 00:04:47,070 They don't know if he did it by his own hand. 90 00:04:47,070 --> 00:04:48,510 They don't know if he gave the order. 91 00:04:48,510 --> 00:04:53,790 But one thing that is 100% known is that he had something to do with it. 92 00:04:53,790 --> 00:04:58,790 So William and John are still buddies, but at one point, and this is, this is again so 93 00:04:58,790 --> 00:05:04,350 crazy guys, something that King would often do or Kings and not just this King, but Kings 94 00:05:04,350 --> 00:05:11,390 that would often do is they would go essentially kidnap their barons like somebody of use to 95 00:05:11,390 --> 00:05:12,390 the Baron. 96 00:05:12,390 --> 00:05:13,390 Sometimes that was servants. 97 00:05:13,390 --> 00:05:16,390 Sometimes it was sons or mostly sons. 98 00:05:16,390 --> 00:05:22,310 So to prove loyal, like just to prove loyalty, they wanted the barons to show them that even 99 00:05:22,310 --> 00:05:26,990 if they were to go kidnap their kids, that they still would be loyal to them. 100 00:05:26,990 --> 00:05:29,350 Now kidnapping wasn't like they were thrown in a dungeon. 101 00:05:29,350 --> 00:05:33,630 Usually they were taken just to like live at one of the King's properties and it was 102 00:05:33,630 --> 00:05:37,430 just like a test of loyalty, but still pretty messed up, right? 103 00:05:37,430 --> 00:05:42,750 So William, or not William, sorry, John comes to William's house one day to do this. 104 00:05:42,750 --> 00:05:47,950 And William again, one of the most wealthy barons, like buds with the King. 105 00:05:47,950 --> 00:05:53,430 And one thing he didn't account for, so William's wife was known for not holding her tongue. 106 00:05:53,430 --> 00:05:55,310 She was a bold woman. 107 00:05:55,310 --> 00:06:00,190 So when the King's men come to collect her sons, she's like, no, I'm sorry, I am not 108 00:06:00,190 --> 00:06:04,150 going to send my sons to and here's where the chaos starts. 109 00:06:04,150 --> 00:06:11,060 I'm not going to send my sons to a King who killed his nephew. 110 00:06:11,060 --> 00:06:12,060 That was a mistake. 111 00:06:12,060 --> 00:06:15,900 You know, it was a bold move and she is protecting her sons. 112 00:06:15,900 --> 00:06:21,780 She just openly accused the King of murder and the King was not having that. 113 00:06:21,780 --> 00:06:26,340 So the King hears about this, not happy with it. 114 00:06:26,340 --> 00:06:32,620 All of a sudden, he tells William he owes this fee, this fine, this outrageous fine. 115 00:06:32,620 --> 00:06:33,940 And he's like, you've got to pay it. 116 00:06:33,940 --> 00:06:37,180 Now, William's not really sure where this fine comes from because it wasn't like he 117 00:06:37,180 --> 00:06:40,420 was all paid up on his, you know, feudal dues or whatever. 118 00:06:40,420 --> 00:06:42,620 So he was all paid up on that, a pay up on the taxes. 119 00:06:42,620 --> 00:06:44,940 He does not know where this fine is coming from. 120 00:06:44,940 --> 00:06:49,380 So not only is there no reason for it, he didn't do anything wrong other than, you know, insult 121 00:06:49,380 --> 00:06:54,100 the King by accusing of murder, which he was very guilty of, but here's where it gets 122 00:06:54,100 --> 00:06:55,100 crazy. 123 00:06:55,100 --> 00:07:01,100 And that is that the King's amount that he was trying to say that William owed him was 124 00:07:01,100 --> 00:07:04,660 like way more than William made in a year even. 125 00:07:04,660 --> 00:07:08,380 And you have to remember William is one of the wealthiest barons. 126 00:07:08,380 --> 00:07:14,820 So he knew, he meaning the King, John, John knew that this fine was impossible for William 127 00:07:14,820 --> 00:07:17,340 to pay and he did it on purpose. 128 00:07:17,340 --> 00:07:22,900 He did it to say, how dare you and your wife, which is a reflection of you, question 129 00:07:22,900 --> 00:07:28,620 my, you know, character, how dare you accuse me of murder. 130 00:07:28,620 --> 00:07:30,940 So this is a problem. 131 00:07:30,940 --> 00:07:34,300 And you know, William obviously cannot pay this, nobody could. 132 00:07:34,300 --> 00:07:36,980 So this is 100%, you know, retribution. 133 00:07:36,980 --> 00:07:42,180 This is, this is the King getting mad at William not because any real law was broken, 134 00:07:42,180 --> 00:07:46,460 but because he didn't like that he was gossiping about him or that his wife was gossiping 135 00:07:46,460 --> 00:07:47,460 about him. 136 00:07:47,460 --> 00:07:51,540 So this turns into a big thing because again, obviously William cannot pay. 137 00:07:51,540 --> 00:07:53,220 And so the King is going to come take his house. 138 00:07:53,220 --> 00:07:55,260 He's probably still going to take his sons. 139 00:07:55,260 --> 00:07:56,860 So the family flees. 140 00:07:56,860 --> 00:08:02,060 Now William flees first and then I believe his, his wife and the children, they, they kind 141 00:08:02,060 --> 00:08:06,580 of follow after, but they're fleeing because they know that this is not good. 142 00:08:06,580 --> 00:08:09,940 And you have to remember what the other barons are thinking as they're watching this. 143 00:08:09,940 --> 00:08:16,380 They're thinking like, if this can happen to William, who was the most beloved by the King, 144 00:08:16,380 --> 00:08:21,500 then this is going to happen to any of us, like this is not a good precedent to be set. 145 00:08:21,500 --> 00:08:23,420 This is really bad. 146 00:08:23,420 --> 00:08:28,260 So what ends up happening is unfortunately William is able to make it out, but the King 147 00:08:28,260 --> 00:08:32,540 and his men catch up to William's wife and their kids. 148 00:08:32,540 --> 00:08:38,460 And he throws them in prison and unfortunately they are said to have died of starvation. 149 00:08:38,460 --> 00:08:41,700 So this is a horrible, horrible event. 150 00:08:41,700 --> 00:08:43,940 But again, the barons are watching this. 151 00:08:43,940 --> 00:08:48,180 And remember the barons already had, if you go back and listen to a Magna Carta episode, 152 00:08:48,180 --> 00:08:51,820 I think there's been a couple because I'm obsessed with Magna Carta. 153 00:08:51,820 --> 00:08:55,660 So they go, the, the barons are all watching this and they're thinking, okay, the King 154 00:08:55,660 --> 00:08:56,980 is out of control. 155 00:08:56,980 --> 00:08:58,220 This is not okay. 156 00:08:58,220 --> 00:09:00,420 This is not the first time he's done something like this. 157 00:09:00,420 --> 00:09:04,660 This is like one of the more severe things again happening to someone he loves. 158 00:09:04,660 --> 00:09:05,660 He doesn't care about us. 159 00:09:05,660 --> 00:09:07,420 He's going to do even worse to us. 160 00:09:07,420 --> 00:09:13,100 So this is one of the final straws that, what is it, the straw that breaks the camel's 161 00:09:13,100 --> 00:09:14,580 back as the saying? 162 00:09:14,580 --> 00:09:19,860 One of the last straws for the barons before Magna Carta and just too long didn't read 163 00:09:19,860 --> 00:09:26,220 as they say, if you recall, the Magna Carta was essentially the King being forced to sign 164 00:09:26,220 --> 00:09:30,420 a charter that said, hey, bro, you can't do this. 165 00:09:30,420 --> 00:09:31,940 You can't abuse your power. 166 00:09:31,940 --> 00:09:34,540 You have to promise the barons this, this, this and this. 167 00:09:34,540 --> 00:09:39,980 And it was the first time a rule of law had been established on paper, which is why it 168 00:09:39,980 --> 00:09:43,740 is such a big deal, which is why the founders loved Magna Carta. 169 00:09:43,740 --> 00:09:48,860 It's why people like John Locke and these philosophers turn to Magna Carta to shape their 170 00:09:48,860 --> 00:09:52,060 ideas and their philosophy on what freedom looks like. 171 00:09:52,060 --> 00:09:53,420 So this is a big deal. 172 00:09:53,420 --> 00:09:58,140 So excessive fines, this belief that this is, that was an excessive fine, right? 173 00:09:58,140 --> 00:10:02,540 That is what sets the foundation for, no, sorry, government, you can't make an excessive fine. 174 00:10:02,540 --> 00:10:04,780 So what is an excessive fine? 175 00:10:04,780 --> 00:10:09,940 That is when something is not proportional to the offense you committed, okay? 176 00:10:09,940 --> 00:10:20,540 So if you break my toy and my toy costs $10, I cannot demand you pay me $1,000, right? 177 00:10:20,540 --> 00:10:25,980 Ultimately, when you break something of mine, you need to make me whole again. 178 00:10:25,980 --> 00:10:31,780 Whole again, meaning replace the monetary value I lost or replace the toy in question, right? 179 00:10:31,780 --> 00:10:37,140 You need to make me whole by taking what you fixing, what you took or broke. 180 00:10:37,140 --> 00:10:43,420 So when someone commits an offense and hopefully it is appropriate, I mean, it's not an unjust 181 00:10:43,420 --> 00:10:47,500 offense, which we have tons of today, but let's say you forget to pay your taxes. 182 00:10:47,500 --> 00:10:51,260 And again, I'm not saying I love taxes, I wish they didn't exist, but let's say you forget 183 00:10:51,260 --> 00:10:53,420 to pay your taxes. 184 00:10:53,420 --> 00:10:58,820 The government can technically come take what you owe in like, by taking items you owe or 185 00:10:58,820 --> 00:10:59,820 seizing your paycheck. 186 00:10:59,820 --> 00:11:00,820 Again, I don't agree with this. 187 00:11:00,820 --> 00:11:02,700 I'm just saying it is what it is. 188 00:11:02,700 --> 00:11:07,340 And as long as it is only what you owe them, they can do that, but they can't take more 189 00:11:07,340 --> 00:11:08,700 than they are owed. 190 00:11:08,700 --> 00:11:12,420 That is in the Constitution, in the Fifth Amendment's taking clause. 191 00:11:12,420 --> 00:11:16,700 And it also ties into the Eighth Amendment's excessive fines clause, because taking more 192 00:11:16,700 --> 00:11:20,860 than you owe would be what, excessive, very excessive. 193 00:11:20,860 --> 00:11:22,620 So that is where we get this. 194 00:11:22,620 --> 00:11:25,380 And sometimes it's called the law of proportionality. 195 00:11:25,380 --> 00:11:27,060 And it didn't start with Magna Carta. 196 00:11:27,060 --> 00:11:28,060 This goes way back. 197 00:11:28,060 --> 00:11:29,840 You have the Romans that were doing it. 198 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:31,980 You have ancient Hebrew. 199 00:11:31,980 --> 00:11:34,220 We have heard of an eye for an eye. 200 00:11:34,220 --> 00:11:36,460 And a lot of times you hear people criticize that. 201 00:11:36,460 --> 00:11:39,940 You say things like an eye, or you know an eye for an eye makes the world go blind, blah, 202 00:11:39,940 --> 00:11:40,940 blah, blah, blah. 203 00:11:40,940 --> 00:11:44,660 But that wasn't as bad as we've kind of thought it means today. 204 00:11:44,660 --> 00:11:49,340 What eye for an eye really meant was it was honing in on this law of proportionality. 205 00:11:49,340 --> 00:11:54,980 Meaning if you take my eye, I can take your eye, but I can't take your eye in your arm. 206 00:11:54,980 --> 00:12:00,620 So it was actually establishing this excessive fines, this lack, or sorry, this prohibition 207 00:12:00,620 --> 00:12:02,100 of excessive fines. 208 00:12:02,100 --> 00:12:07,420 So these are all things that have been in human history for a long time, even though it took 209 00:12:07,420 --> 00:12:11,500 some time for it to be solidified into law in our more modern era. 210 00:12:11,500 --> 00:12:16,460 And I know be talking about 1776 as a modern era is crazy, but it is if you look at the 211 00:12:16,460 --> 00:12:20,880 whole, you know, scope of world history. 212 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,400 So that is what this excessive fines meant, right? 213 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,800 This is what it meant to the people. 214 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,880 And so goes to the barons, they start getting these rights and obviously that's going to 215 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,320 trickle down and over time the founders are going to look at what's happening to them 216 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:41,120 with the King's abuse and say, hold up, you are, you know, giving us excessive fines. 217 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:42,480 This isn't fair. 218 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:47,080 And so that's going to trickle down into what will eventually be our eight amendment in 219 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,440 the Bill of Rights, which as we talked about in another episode, Bill of Rights almost didn't 220 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:55,760 happen at all, but you can go back to that episode, I will not spoil that for you. 221 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,520 So excessive fines, and this is one thing I love about getting to break down these amendments 222 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:04,200 with you guys or parts of the amendments is, you know, we look at them as like eight amendment 223 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,840 and the text is not very long in our amendments, right? 224 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:13,400 It's sometimes like a paragraph, but within those paragraphs, sometimes there can be like, 225 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,360 there's like a handful of different rights. 226 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:20,400 And each, each right each clause has like a rich history of why it's in there. 227 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,500 Nothing was just thrown in there for fun. 228 00:13:22,500 --> 00:13:27,760 So eight amendment today, we're just going over that one part, which is excessive fines. 229 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:32,460 And now you know a little bit of history about why it happened and why King John was just 230 00:13:32,460 --> 00:13:34,260 again, not a cool dude guys. 231 00:13:34,260 --> 00:13:38,140 King John was not the best, but we will wrap it up there. 232 00:13:38,140 --> 00:13:41,820 It's always don't forget to like and subscribe to the podcast and until next time I will 233 00:13:41,820 --> 00:13:42,500 talk to you later.