1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,416 [MUSIC PLAYING] 2 00:00:03,416 --> 00:00:04,400 3 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,320 Welcome to Data Nation. 4 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,980 I'm Munther Dahleh, and I'm the Director of the MIT's Institute 5 00:00:09,980 --> 00:00:12,200 of Data, Systems, and Society. 6 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,320 Today on Data Nation, Liberty and Scott 7 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,760 are diving deep into the metaverse. 8 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,197 [MUSIC PLAYING] 9 00:00:21,197 --> 00:00:23,170 10 00:00:23,170 --> 00:00:26,480 When we decided to do an episode on the metaverse, 11 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,580 I have to be totally honest and say that I had to Google, 12 00:00:30,580 --> 00:00:32,600 what is the metaverse? 13 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,520 And what I saw is that most people have 14 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:38,270 tons of questions about it. 15 00:00:38,270 --> 00:00:40,940 Is the metaverse our future? 16 00:00:40,940 --> 00:00:44,890 Are we going to be living with virtual reality headsets 17 00:00:44,890 --> 00:00:48,930 and completely disregard the real physical world? 18 00:00:48,930 --> 00:00:52,460 But before we can answer those bigger questions, 19 00:00:52,460 --> 00:00:57,350 we have to figure out and define what actually is the metaverse. 20 00:00:57,350 --> 00:00:59,380 Well, hopefully it's Ready Player One. 21 00:00:59,380 --> 00:01:01,720 But I guess if you would ask the average person 22 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:03,630 on the street with the metaverse, 23 00:01:03,630 --> 00:01:06,530 you get a lot of blank stares and wildly different answers. 24 00:01:06,530 --> 00:01:08,530 But I guess that's why we're doing this episode. 25 00:01:08,530 --> 00:01:11,140 So to be honest, we're probably much closer to the metaverse 26 00:01:11,140 --> 00:01:12,440 than we realize. 27 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,010 We're going to start by figuring out 28 00:01:15,010 --> 00:01:19,070 what that actually is, what we mean when we say the metaverse. 29 00:01:19,070 --> 00:01:23,160 And we are going to take these questions to Joe Paradiso. 30 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,850 Joe is the Dreyfoos Professor at MIT 31 00:01:25,850 --> 00:01:30,300 and directs the MIT Media Lab's Responsive Environments Group. 32 00:01:30,300 --> 00:01:35,270 And on a quick side note, the MIT Media Lab has in the past 33 00:01:35,270 --> 00:01:38,510 really defined the future for society 34 00:01:38,510 --> 00:01:40,770 when it comes to media and technology. 35 00:01:40,770 --> 00:01:44,930 And Joe has also written over 350 publications 36 00:01:44,930 --> 00:01:49,040 and really specializes in how to augment and mediate 37 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:50,540 the human experience. 38 00:01:50,540 --> 00:01:55,100 In the fall of 2021, Facebook renamed itself 39 00:01:55,100 --> 00:01:57,710 Meta, which was really the first introduction 40 00:01:57,710 --> 00:01:59,940 I had to the word metaverse. 41 00:01:59,940 --> 00:02:04,150 But I at least understand that the metaverse isn't Facebook. 42 00:02:04,150 --> 00:02:08,759 So from your perspective, from the MIT Media Lab perspective, 43 00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:11,640 what do you see the metaverse as? 44 00:02:11,640 --> 00:02:13,500 These ideas go way, way back. 45 00:02:13,500 --> 00:02:16,022 So the basic ideas are not new. 46 00:02:16,022 --> 00:02:17,480 When we think, we don't really call 47 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,565 it metaverse because that's become such a loaded term now. 48 00:02:20,565 --> 00:02:22,940 You say it, everybody knows what it is, but that in a way 49 00:02:22,940 --> 00:02:25,670 hems it in to this kind of narrow definition 50 00:02:25,670 --> 00:02:28,310 that maybe of networked game environments 51 00:02:28,310 --> 00:02:30,470 where you kind of play games and can 52 00:02:30,470 --> 00:02:32,330 get a call in virtual reality. 53 00:02:32,330 --> 00:02:34,260 It's so much deeper than that. 54 00:02:34,260 --> 00:02:36,035 We call it Xverse at the Media Lab. 55 00:02:36,035 --> 00:02:37,910 And we've got lots of programs that have been 56 00:02:37,910 --> 00:02:39,090 exploring the edges of this. 57 00:02:39,090 --> 00:02:40,880 We're looking at now kind of theming them 58 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:42,240 a little bit more than we have. 59 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:44,930 But it's about information coming from you 60 00:02:44,930 --> 00:02:48,110 and coming to you in different ways at different times. 61 00:02:48,110 --> 00:02:50,190 And already, we're living a bit in that. 62 00:02:50,190 --> 00:02:52,400 I have my watch that's connected to my doorbell. 63 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:56,020 And somebody walks by, it may buzz or I'll see a picture. 64 00:02:56,020 --> 00:02:58,743 So there's a whole continuum there that's really intriguing. 65 00:02:58,743 --> 00:03:00,660 And I think that's how it's going to play out. 66 00:03:00,660 --> 00:03:02,577 It's not just going to be this virtual reality 67 00:03:02,577 --> 00:03:05,330 headset we put on, suddenly, we're somewhere else. 68 00:03:05,330 --> 00:03:08,480 It's going to be a whole continuum 69 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:09,730 of really abstracted presence. 70 00:03:09,730 --> 00:03:11,563 I think that's one of the interesting things 71 00:03:11,563 --> 00:03:12,500 about the future. 72 00:03:12,500 --> 00:03:14,220 As we become more and more connected, 73 00:03:14,220 --> 00:03:15,600 it is about connection. 74 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:19,310 We start blurring the sense of where we are. 75 00:03:19,310 --> 00:03:21,950 A lot of people are actually already 76 00:03:21,950 --> 00:03:24,600 familiar with this blurred sense of reality. 77 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,680 When COVID-19 pandemic swept the globe, 78 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,170 many individuals started working from home. 79 00:03:31,170 --> 00:03:33,830 And for many, I guess the typical work 80 00:03:33,830 --> 00:03:35,730 day looked like this. 81 00:03:35,730 --> 00:03:36,990 You'd sign into Slack. 82 00:03:36,990 --> 00:03:39,320 You'd update your status to active, 83 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,190 so your employer knows you're there. 84 00:03:41,190 --> 00:03:43,310 You make sure you stay productive 85 00:03:43,310 --> 00:03:46,430 because your workplace monitors your project progress 86 00:03:46,430 --> 00:03:48,440 and senses for computer movements 87 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:50,670 to make sure that you haven't left your desk. 88 00:03:50,670 --> 00:03:54,500 You join an afternoon video call via your laptop 89 00:03:54,500 --> 00:03:57,180 with colleagues who are also sitting in their homes. 90 00:03:57,180 --> 00:04:01,560 And finally, you end your workday by signing out of Slack, 91 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:03,980 shutting down your computer, and you immediately 92 00:04:03,980 --> 00:04:06,470 head back into your home life after having just 93 00:04:06,470 --> 00:04:09,900 worked an entire day from your kitchen table. 94 00:04:09,900 --> 00:04:12,920 So the line certainly became blurred between what was real 95 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:14,160 and what was virtual. 96 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,860 So, Joe, I'm curious, is this the kind of direction 97 00:04:16,860 --> 00:04:17,852 the metaverse is going? 98 00:04:17,852 --> 00:04:19,310 Because I know that there are other 99 00:04:19,310 --> 00:04:22,350 examples that I might qualify as a tool to metaverse. 100 00:04:22,350 --> 00:04:26,390 For example, if I have my Apple iPhone 101 00:04:26,390 --> 00:04:29,090 and I've got a filter on it, and it's 102 00:04:29,090 --> 00:04:31,940 in superimposing a dog over a picture or something I'm 103 00:04:31,940 --> 00:04:35,490 looking at, am I using a tool of the Xverse verse or metaverse? 104 00:04:35,490 --> 00:04:39,850 Or is that part of that blurred reality that you're talking 105 00:04:39,850 --> 00:04:40,350 about. 106 00:04:40,350 --> 00:04:41,670 Would that fit the definition? 107 00:04:41,670 --> 00:04:45,737 It's definitely on ramp to it, and I'd say it's a part of it, 108 00:04:45,737 --> 00:04:48,320 especially when it's networked, because you do it in Snapchat, 109 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:52,680 like my daughters do, then all your friends see you as that. 110 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:54,750 So that's your image at that point. 111 00:04:54,750 --> 00:04:57,230 So using the dog filter on my Snapchat 112 00:04:57,230 --> 00:04:58,815 is an on ramp to the metaverse. 113 00:04:58,815 --> 00:05:00,440 And this would be an example of what we 114 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,990 call augmented reality or AR. 115 00:05:02,990 --> 00:05:05,870 AR uses things like real landscapes and digital scenes 116 00:05:05,870 --> 00:05:08,550 to theoretically enhance our current reality. 117 00:05:08,550 --> 00:05:11,690 Augmented Reality, or AR, really came to the world's fingertips 118 00:05:11,690 --> 00:05:12,650 in 2016. 119 00:05:12,650 --> 00:05:14,597 And with the emergence of Pokemon Go, 120 00:05:14,597 --> 00:05:16,430 players would open the app, which would then 121 00:05:16,430 --> 00:05:18,710 use their camera and location to display 122 00:05:18,710 --> 00:05:20,450 whatever the camera pointed at. 123 00:05:20,450 --> 00:05:22,520 The app would display Pokemon on screen 124 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,760 as though they were right there in front of them. 125 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:26,930 Players could then catch the monsters. 126 00:05:26,930 --> 00:05:28,930 Eventually, developers added trading 127 00:05:28,930 --> 00:05:30,910 where players could directly interact and trade 128 00:05:30,910 --> 00:05:33,620 Pokemon with each other from the comfort of their own homes. 129 00:05:33,620 --> 00:05:36,790 It's funny to say the metaverse and the future of humankind 130 00:05:36,790 --> 00:05:39,250 may look a lot more like the world of Pokemon Go 131 00:05:39,250 --> 00:05:42,100 than you might think, where the metaverse uses reality 132 00:05:42,100 --> 00:05:44,320 to support its platform rather than purely 133 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,040 be a virtual experience. 134 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,240 The most common way people are proposing 135 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:53,390 this future is through the use of special AR glasses. 136 00:05:53,390 --> 00:05:54,970 And these glasses are being developed 137 00:05:54,970 --> 00:05:58,860 by brands like Meta or Apple or Snapchat or even Ray-Ban. 138 00:05:58,860 --> 00:06:04,030 But I can't help but wonder if existing in these AR and VR 139 00:06:04,030 --> 00:06:09,070 landscapes will actually be what the metaverse consists of, or is 140 00:06:09,070 --> 00:06:12,320 this just some idea purported by science fiction? 141 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,485 So Joe, when you say the word "metaverse," 142 00:06:14,485 --> 00:06:15,860 the average person on the street, 143 00:06:15,860 --> 00:06:18,100 their first thought will probably be, oh, 144 00:06:18,100 --> 00:06:19,420 like Ready Player One? 145 00:06:19,420 --> 00:06:23,730 Or oh, I get an Oculus and I'm playing here. 146 00:06:23,730 --> 00:06:26,270 You might get a more sophisticated nerd like myself 147 00:06:26,270 --> 00:06:28,687 and be like, yeah, I've been part of the metaverse before. 148 00:06:28,687 --> 00:06:30,990 I play a game called Eve Online, or, yeah, 149 00:06:30,990 --> 00:06:32,580 I owned a house in Second Life. 150 00:06:32,580 --> 00:06:35,820 The definition is fluid, so to speak. 151 00:06:35,820 --> 00:06:38,570 Like, I don't think we would agree that Facebook 152 00:06:38,570 --> 00:06:40,410 is inventing the metaverse. 153 00:06:40,410 --> 00:06:42,860 I think we should say that Facebook 154 00:06:42,860 --> 00:06:45,740 is trying to participate in the concept of the metaverse. 155 00:06:45,740 --> 00:06:46,368 Yeah. 156 00:06:46,368 --> 00:06:47,910 They're trying to give it a big kick. 157 00:06:47,910 --> 00:06:49,290 Yeah, exactly what the concept is. 158 00:06:49,290 --> 00:06:50,957 They're still figuring it out as we are. 159 00:06:50,957 --> 00:06:52,430 You made some good points. 160 00:06:52,430 --> 00:06:54,895 And of course, you could have your house in Minecraft, 161 00:06:54,895 --> 00:06:57,020 or you could have it also in Animal Crossing, which 162 00:06:57,020 --> 00:07:01,430 is very interesting, because people come and visit it. 163 00:07:01,430 --> 00:07:03,870 You work on your property, you share it. 164 00:07:03,870 --> 00:07:06,065 And also the weather in your island 165 00:07:06,065 --> 00:07:08,190 can depend on the weather that's happening locally. 166 00:07:08,190 --> 00:07:10,580 So you already see this folding of reality 167 00:07:10,580 --> 00:07:12,460 into this other universe. 168 00:07:12,460 --> 00:07:15,030 And I think that's where a lot of my work has been. 169 00:07:15,030 --> 00:07:17,930 And I think that's where there's a whole interesting frontier 170 00:07:17,930 --> 00:07:22,050 interpreting the real world through virtual constructs. 171 00:07:22,050 --> 00:07:24,520 So you can actually have a closer connection to it. 172 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:25,020 I like that. 173 00:07:25,020 --> 00:07:26,937 I'm going to steal interpreting the real world 174 00:07:26,937 --> 00:07:29,900 through virtual constructs, which again, it's 175 00:07:29,900 --> 00:07:33,200 not quite a direct link to the augmented reality we talked 176 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:34,490 about before. 177 00:07:34,490 --> 00:07:36,890 So there's this concept of uploading your brain 178 00:07:36,890 --> 00:07:38,470 to a computer in the future. 179 00:07:38,470 --> 00:07:40,305 When I hear something like this, I 180 00:07:40,305 --> 00:07:42,680 envision we're going to upload our brain to the metaverse 181 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,550 via an Elon Musk brain link and do a Zuckerberg-owned community 182 00:07:46,550 --> 00:07:49,550 and play virtual football owned by the NFL. 183 00:07:49,550 --> 00:07:51,410 Are we basically building the metaverse 184 00:07:51,410 --> 00:07:53,720 that I can do all the things in a non-physical world 185 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:55,500 that I can't do in the real world? 186 00:07:55,500 --> 00:07:57,140 That's a very loaded question. 187 00:07:57,140 --> 00:07:59,630 You can break down 20 different ways, all of which 188 00:07:59,630 --> 00:08:01,140 are kind of interesting actually. 189 00:08:01,140 --> 00:08:04,100 So I think at the first level, yeah, uploading 190 00:08:04,100 --> 00:08:05,640 your brain is complicated. 191 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,640 Making a connection to your brain is still complicated, 192 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:09,410 but it's doable. 193 00:08:09,410 --> 00:08:12,090 People have done it, and there's going to be much more of it. 194 00:08:12,090 --> 00:08:14,520 So if you want to look at-- you go out, 195 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:15,982 let's say, you talk 50 years. 196 00:08:15,982 --> 00:08:17,190 This is a comfortable number. 197 00:08:17,190 --> 00:08:18,398 It could even be much sooner. 198 00:08:18,398 --> 00:08:19,100 We don't know. 199 00:08:19,100 --> 00:08:24,860 People will connect to virtual realms directly, I suspect. 200 00:08:24,860 --> 00:08:26,480 Lots of different takes on it. 201 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:28,160 Already, you have people that are 202 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,125 paralyzed that can move things with their motor neurons. 203 00:08:31,125 --> 00:08:32,750 Elon's very involved in that, but there 204 00:08:32,750 --> 00:08:34,792 are lots of other people working on that problem, 205 00:08:34,792 --> 00:08:36,780 including people at the Media Lab and at MIT. 206 00:08:36,780 --> 00:08:39,179 But yeah, this is going to be first for people 207 00:08:39,179 --> 00:08:39,970 with disabilities. 208 00:08:39,970 --> 00:08:42,190 Eventually, I think it will have broader impact. 209 00:08:42,190 --> 00:08:46,470 And yeah, like in the Matrix and in Simulacron-3 and World 210 00:08:46,470 --> 00:08:48,010 on a Wire, stuff like that. 211 00:08:48,010 --> 00:08:49,660 When we talk about the metaverse, 212 00:08:49,660 --> 00:08:51,660 we're talking about creating another environment 213 00:08:51,660 --> 00:08:53,400 in which people interact everything 214 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,330 from economies to how we live. 215 00:08:55,330 --> 00:08:57,940 Do we think this is a good thing for society, 216 00:08:57,940 --> 00:08:59,620 that this technology is coming? 217 00:08:59,620 --> 00:09:01,780 Are you excited for it or are you afraid? 218 00:09:01,780 --> 00:09:03,240 It's a bit of both. 219 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:04,615 Even here at MIT, Tom Malone used 220 00:09:04,615 --> 00:09:06,823 to talk a lot about collective intelligence, at least 221 00:09:06,823 --> 00:09:07,840 to our point of view. 222 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,330 We're afraid of any kind of a socialism. 223 00:09:10,330 --> 00:09:13,180 I think identity and individual identity is very important. 224 00:09:13,180 --> 00:09:16,653 So if we approach this kind of a collectivism, 225 00:09:16,653 --> 00:09:18,070 what's the role of the individual? 226 00:09:18,070 --> 00:09:19,090 I think it's critical. 227 00:09:19,090 --> 00:09:22,140 Or could individuals be dynamic things that just form out 228 00:09:22,140 --> 00:09:23,500 of combinations of people? 229 00:09:23,500 --> 00:09:24,165 I don't know. 230 00:09:24,165 --> 00:09:26,040 It's going to be very different if you go out 231 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,620 far enough, maybe even in the near-term of a decade or so. 232 00:09:29,620 --> 00:09:32,112 And I think it's going to lead to a lot of capability. 233 00:09:32,112 --> 00:09:34,320 On the other hand, it leads to tremendous opportunity 234 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,290 for indoctrination because you know a lot about people, 235 00:09:37,290 --> 00:09:38,868 you know a lot about their state. 236 00:09:38,868 --> 00:09:41,160 You can approach them with something at the right time. 237 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:43,590 And for learning, I think that's great because you learn, 238 00:09:43,590 --> 00:09:45,257 the cloud learns, we all learn together. 239 00:09:45,257 --> 00:09:46,465 It's another future for this. 240 00:09:46,465 --> 00:09:48,049 It's already happening to some extent, 241 00:09:48,049 --> 00:09:49,300 but now it's brought up close. 242 00:09:49,300 --> 00:09:52,110 So the whole division of what the cloud learns about I learn 243 00:09:52,110 --> 00:09:54,390 and exactly how I learn it and what context 244 00:09:54,390 --> 00:09:56,400 is something that's going to be very dynamic. 245 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,130 To wrap this up, we've just talked about the negatives. 246 00:09:59,130 --> 00:10:02,850 What are some examples of the true, incredible positives 247 00:10:02,850 --> 00:10:06,040 that are going to be able to come out of this for society? 248 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,318 When we did our hour Here&There project at Tidmarsh, 249 00:10:08,318 --> 00:10:10,860 the cranberry farm, that's a wetland that we have sensors all 250 00:10:10,860 --> 00:10:14,340 over the place and tunnel them through the virtual worlds, 251 00:10:14,340 --> 00:10:18,010 we had an app where you wear bone conduction headphones. 252 00:10:18,010 --> 00:10:20,520 It didn't cover your ears, it just pushed into your head. 253 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,350 So you could hear through vibrations on your skull, 254 00:10:23,350 --> 00:10:23,950 essentially. 255 00:10:23,950 --> 00:10:25,783 It was fairly innocuous. 256 00:10:25,783 --> 00:10:26,950 You really didn't notice it. 257 00:10:26,950 --> 00:10:28,500 But you heard these things as well as hearing 258 00:10:28,500 --> 00:10:29,350 through your ears. 259 00:10:29,350 --> 00:10:31,060 And we had it channeled into the microphones. 260 00:10:31,060 --> 00:10:33,010 We had all over the place to pick up the wildlife. 261 00:10:33,010 --> 00:10:35,250 And it knew where you were because you had GPS and knew 262 00:10:35,250 --> 00:10:37,140 the angle of your head, because we had inertial measurement unit 263 00:10:37,140 --> 00:10:37,770 to track it. 264 00:10:37,770 --> 00:10:40,770 And we tunnel in the audio from these sources 265 00:10:40,770 --> 00:10:42,860 as if you were hearing them. 266 00:10:42,860 --> 00:10:44,860 So they move with your head, so on and so forth. 267 00:10:44,860 --> 00:10:46,690 And it was remarkable. 268 00:10:46,690 --> 00:10:47,950 I was expanded. 269 00:10:47,950 --> 00:10:49,082 I was not diminished. 270 00:10:49,082 --> 00:10:50,290 I didn't want to take it off. 271 00:10:50,290 --> 00:10:52,748 I put on a VR headset, it's kind of fun to play some stuff, 272 00:10:52,748 --> 00:10:54,220 but I get fatigued, I get sick. 273 00:10:54,220 --> 00:10:55,840 I'm relieved when I take it off. 274 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:57,160 I didn't want to take this off. 275 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,500 It augmented me rather than diminish me. 276 00:10:59,500 --> 00:11:03,300 And I think we have a chance to develop interfaces and systems 277 00:11:03,300 --> 00:11:05,250 that really augment people in different ways 278 00:11:05,250 --> 00:11:06,420 and don't diminish them. 279 00:11:06,420 --> 00:11:08,635 In all aspects, I think that's what we have to go for 280 00:11:08,635 --> 00:11:10,510 and I think there's tremendous promise there. 281 00:11:10,510 --> 00:11:13,674 [MUSIC PLAYING] 282 00:11:13,674 --> 00:11:14,670 283 00:11:14,670 --> 00:11:19,300 I think we definitely have a clear view on the metaverse. 284 00:11:19,300 --> 00:11:23,130 But I also think it's fair to say that a lot of people 285 00:11:23,130 --> 00:11:27,190 have mixed feelings about how this will change society. 286 00:11:27,190 --> 00:11:30,810 Joe mentioned in his experience with virtual reality 287 00:11:30,810 --> 00:11:33,570 that he felt that technology added 288 00:11:33,570 --> 00:11:35,300 something refreshing to life. 289 00:11:35,300 --> 00:11:40,030 He didn't feel that it took away or cheapened reality. 290 00:11:40,030 --> 00:11:43,590 But are there valid reasons for people 291 00:11:43,590 --> 00:11:46,170 to be concerned about the increasing 292 00:11:46,170 --> 00:11:48,580 use of metaverse technology? 293 00:11:48,580 --> 00:11:49,977 So that's a good question. 294 00:11:49,977 --> 00:11:51,810 One of the things people are concerned about 295 00:11:51,810 --> 00:11:53,640 is how hard will it be for people 296 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,040 to access the metaverse from a financial standpoint. 297 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,000 In order to make the metaverse inclusive, 298 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,240 businesses need to be able to securely exchange 299 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,670 funds that are not exclusive to any one country or continent. 300 00:12:03,670 --> 00:12:05,580 So it seems likely that the metaverse will 301 00:12:05,580 --> 00:12:08,290 turn to cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin or Ethereum, 302 00:12:08,290 --> 00:12:10,290 and some transactions may also take the form 303 00:12:10,290 --> 00:12:12,330 of non-fungible tokens or NFTs. 304 00:12:12,330 --> 00:12:14,620 And cryptocurrencies aside, will the cost 305 00:12:14,620 --> 00:12:18,370 of the equipment like VR and AR glasses create an equity gap? 306 00:12:18,370 --> 00:12:21,340 Another thing that people are really worried about 307 00:12:21,340 --> 00:12:23,210 is obviously safety. 308 00:12:23,210 --> 00:12:27,070 Recently, Meta was testing their VR platform 309 00:12:27,070 --> 00:12:31,390 called Horizon Worlds when users alerted them 310 00:12:31,390 --> 00:12:36,070 of this totally new kind of threat, this virtual physical 311 00:12:36,070 --> 00:12:37,550 and sexual harassment. 312 00:12:37,550 --> 00:12:41,980 And meta responded by adding a feature that created a 4-foot 313 00:12:41,980 --> 00:12:45,440 virtual bubble between non-friend players. 314 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,480 But what happens when a user does what's called modding 315 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,530 or modifying the game and they create a program that allows 316 00:12:53,530 --> 00:12:58,390 them to violate this 4-foot barrier and impose on the player 317 00:12:58,390 --> 00:12:59,500 in some way? 318 00:12:59,500 --> 00:13:04,010 How will the metaverse punish virtual crimes? 319 00:13:04,010 --> 00:13:05,810 There are clearly a lot of questions, 320 00:13:05,810 --> 00:13:07,750 concerns for what the metaverse would actually 321 00:13:07,750 --> 00:13:09,250 look like day-to-day. 322 00:13:09,250 --> 00:13:12,290 So we're going to take these questions to Eric Ravenscraft. 323 00:13:12,290 --> 00:13:14,740 So when you Google, what is the metaverse, 324 00:13:14,740 --> 00:13:16,940 Eric's article is the first one to come up. 325 00:13:16,940 --> 00:13:19,690 Eric is a writer for Wired, where he has guided readers 326 00:13:19,690 --> 00:13:22,960 on how to use technology for nearly a decade for publications 327 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,730 like Lifehacker, oneZero, and The New York Times. 328 00:13:25,730 --> 00:13:27,800 The metaverse is such a big term, 329 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,550 and it takes a bit to wrap our minds around what the word 330 00:13:30,550 --> 00:13:32,150 metaverse actually means. 331 00:13:32,150 --> 00:13:33,760 So we're asking everyone. 332 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:37,570 We talked with Joe Paradiso from MIT's Media Lab 333 00:13:37,570 --> 00:13:39,690 about what the metaverse means to him. 334 00:13:39,690 --> 00:13:41,420 We wanted to talk to you as well. 335 00:13:41,420 --> 00:13:43,400 How would you explain the metaverse? 336 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,410 I sort of have two branching answers to that. 337 00:13:45,410 --> 00:13:49,000 One is that it is sort of a collection-- companies 338 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,150 are referring to a collection of technologies ranging 339 00:13:52,150 --> 00:13:55,360 from virtual reality, augmented reality, a collection 340 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,080 of different types of sensors and networking devices 341 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,840 that enable motion tracking or whatnot that 342 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,870 go beyond the capabilities of just what we typically think 343 00:14:04,870 --> 00:14:07,060 of as the internet, which is your phone 344 00:14:07,060 --> 00:14:09,320 or your computer connecting to a website. 345 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,960 And that is a very wide array of technologies, some of which 346 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,570 even work in opposing directions to each other. 347 00:14:17,570 --> 00:14:19,330 The second definition that I think 348 00:14:19,330 --> 00:14:22,060 is more accurate for the metaverse 349 00:14:22,060 --> 00:14:24,770 as a phrase is that it is a marketing term. 350 00:14:24,770 --> 00:14:26,680 The conversation around the metaverse 351 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,050 kicked off when Facebook announced 352 00:14:29,050 --> 00:14:31,420 that it was rebranding to Meta because it's planning 353 00:14:31,420 --> 00:14:33,440 to build the metaverse. 354 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,670 So this idea of a virtual world where 355 00:14:36,670 --> 00:14:38,710 everyone will socialize and buy stuff 356 00:14:38,710 --> 00:14:42,340 and there will be a lot of transactions for digital clothes 357 00:14:42,340 --> 00:14:45,370 and a merchant to take a cut of those sales 358 00:14:45,370 --> 00:14:50,060 is a narrative that Facebook has a vested interest in promoting. 359 00:14:50,060 --> 00:14:52,840 But the narrative of what the metaverse is 360 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,510 and the technology that actually exists 361 00:14:55,510 --> 00:15:00,050 are very often divergent from each other. 362 00:15:00,050 --> 00:15:03,910 So one of the problems that we've 363 00:15:03,910 --> 00:15:06,580 seen-- so if we describe the metaverse just 364 00:15:06,580 --> 00:15:10,780 for the purposes of this question as what I imagine 365 00:15:10,780 --> 00:15:14,410 it to be, where it's like VR headsets or Oculus headsets 366 00:15:14,410 --> 00:15:16,790 and you're living in this virtual reality, 367 00:15:16,790 --> 00:15:20,150 I would imagine that to do interesting things, 368 00:15:20,150 --> 00:15:22,070 you're going to need stuff. 369 00:15:22,070 --> 00:15:23,570 Like you're going to need equipment, 370 00:15:23,570 --> 00:15:26,060 you're going to need software, you're going to need stuff, 371 00:15:26,060 --> 00:15:29,690 and that there's a huge cost as things goes on and on to that. 372 00:15:29,690 --> 00:15:32,710 Is there a chance that the metaverse or what 373 00:15:32,710 --> 00:15:34,510 I imagine the metaverse to be is actually 374 00:15:34,510 --> 00:15:37,910 going to end up creating sort of an equity situation? 375 00:15:37,910 --> 00:15:39,850 It's going to make it so that people 376 00:15:39,850 --> 00:15:41,833 who have money or who can buy stuff 377 00:15:41,833 --> 00:15:44,000 are going to be able to participate in these things. 378 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:45,990 And people who can't. 379 00:15:45,990 --> 00:15:48,940 Or is there any issue with the metaverse in terms 380 00:15:48,940 --> 00:15:54,250 of the socioeconomic aspect of our country or our world? 381 00:15:54,250 --> 00:15:54,980 Absolutely. 382 00:15:54,980 --> 00:15:55,480 Yes. 383 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:57,610 I think that we already see that a little bit 384 00:15:57,610 --> 00:15:59,570 in the internet of today. 385 00:15:59,570 --> 00:16:01,340 You need a laptop or a phone. 386 00:16:01,340 --> 00:16:03,350 You need a cell connection in order to connect. 387 00:16:03,350 --> 00:16:06,950 And those things are relatively cheap and relatively portable. 388 00:16:06,950 --> 00:16:08,588 You can put a laptop on your lap, 389 00:16:08,588 --> 00:16:10,130 you can carry a phone in your pocket. 390 00:16:10,130 --> 00:16:14,130 But let's say that the metaverse is going to be VR-based. 391 00:16:14,130 --> 00:16:15,270 If you have a VR headset-- 392 00:16:15,270 --> 00:16:17,740 I have a Quest 2 in my house. 393 00:16:17,740 --> 00:16:20,130 And in order to use that, I need about a living room's 394 00:16:20,130 --> 00:16:23,620 worth of space to set up and us, that. which means, 395 00:16:23,620 --> 00:16:25,650 among other things, I need a living room. 396 00:16:25,650 --> 00:16:28,980 I briefly lived in DC, and there are very small apartments there. 397 00:16:28,980 --> 00:16:30,630 I'm not sure I could allocate space 398 00:16:30,630 --> 00:16:33,570 for a metaverse workstation. 399 00:16:33,570 --> 00:16:36,940 And headsets are already like they're getting less expensive, 400 00:16:36,940 --> 00:16:38,760 but they're not useful enough to justify 401 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,550 the expense in the same way that a phone does. 402 00:16:41,550 --> 00:16:44,440 And they're on top of a phone, they're on top of a laptop. 403 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:46,390 So it's one more device to buy. 404 00:16:46,390 --> 00:16:50,590 There's space needed in order to use them. 405 00:16:50,590 --> 00:16:53,160 We don't know what bandwidth requirements would be for these 406 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:58,020 if we got to a really high detailed virtual analog 407 00:16:58,020 --> 00:16:59,470 for a physical world. 408 00:16:59,470 --> 00:17:01,650 So I do think that there are absolutely 409 00:17:01,650 --> 00:17:04,050 socioeconomic challenges to getting people 410 00:17:04,050 --> 00:17:05,650 to use the hardware for this. 411 00:17:05,650 --> 00:17:07,858 And then it sort of creates a chicken and egg problem 412 00:17:07,858 --> 00:17:10,025 that if not everyone can use the hardware, 413 00:17:10,025 --> 00:17:11,650 how do you develop the software for it? 414 00:17:11,650 --> 00:17:13,317 And if no one's developing the software, 415 00:17:13,317 --> 00:17:14,630 why buy the hardware for it? 416 00:17:14,630 --> 00:17:17,920 So there are a lot of challenges in getting 417 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:22,490 even a hypothetical virtual world like this up and running. 418 00:17:22,490 --> 00:17:24,310 But as we defined earlier, the metaverse 419 00:17:24,310 --> 00:17:26,510 is not just what a headset you put on, 420 00:17:26,510 --> 00:17:28,847 augmented reality phones, glasses. 421 00:17:28,847 --> 00:17:31,180 If you and I and Liberty are talking about this 10 years 422 00:17:31,180 --> 00:17:33,400 from now, where do you think it's going to be? 423 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,415 Is it going to be closer to Ready Player One? 424 00:17:35,415 --> 00:17:36,790 Or is it going to be closer to we 425 00:17:36,790 --> 00:17:40,810 have a lot of individual gadgets that augment our world 426 00:17:40,810 --> 00:17:42,560 and allow us to interact differently, 427 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,180 but not necessarily ensconced or envelop our lives? 428 00:17:46,180 --> 00:17:46,880 Yeah. 429 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:48,770 And I love talking about what may happen, 430 00:17:48,770 --> 00:17:51,010 but the one thing I am comfortable 431 00:17:51,010 --> 00:17:53,830 saying is we will not be living in Ready Player One. 432 00:17:53,830 --> 00:17:56,440 It's challenging because part of the issue 433 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,200 is that we don't really have a good sense of scale 434 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:04,640 of the technological requirements for a Ready Player 435 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:05,890 One style metaverse. 436 00:18:05,890 --> 00:18:08,260 Intel came out recently and described 437 00:18:08,260 --> 00:18:10,125 that the amount of computing power 438 00:18:10,125 --> 00:18:11,500 needed for something like that is 439 00:18:11,500 --> 00:18:14,060 like a thousand-fold beyond what we have now. 440 00:18:14,060 --> 00:18:17,060 But in the next five years, we might get 10-fold, 441 00:18:17,060 --> 00:18:19,730 it's just the scale required. 442 00:18:19,730 --> 00:18:23,210 And as processing power gets more powerful, 443 00:18:23,210 --> 00:18:24,950 we tend to fill that up. 444 00:18:24,950 --> 00:18:27,800 There's a reason that video games don't load instantly, 445 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,090 even though we have massively more powerful systems now 446 00:18:31,090 --> 00:18:32,210 than we had 20 years ago. 447 00:18:32,210 --> 00:18:34,910 It's because when the computers get more powerful, 448 00:18:34,910 --> 00:18:38,000 what we ask of them gets more intense. 449 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,940 So Fortnite could be photorealistic, 450 00:18:40,940 --> 00:18:43,940 but you couldn't do it with 100 people in an instance. 451 00:18:43,940 --> 00:18:48,500 So that I don't think is likely or even possible. 452 00:18:48,500 --> 00:18:51,700 But I do think that we have a lot of exciting technologies 453 00:18:51,700 --> 00:18:53,495 that could help us augment our world. 454 00:18:53,495 --> 00:18:55,120 Like one thing I'm really interested in 455 00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:56,990 is a photogrammetry. 456 00:18:56,990 --> 00:18:59,480 There's an app for an iPhone called polycam. 457 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,950 You basically take a few hundred photos of an object 458 00:19:02,950 --> 00:19:04,840 or you just take a video walking around it. 459 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:08,720 And it will spit out a 3D model of that object. 460 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:10,550 You could take that into a video game, 461 00:19:10,550 --> 00:19:12,380 you could make a movie out of that. 462 00:19:12,380 --> 00:19:14,360 You could build your own virtual sets. 463 00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:17,530 Those kind of things are really exciting because that 464 00:19:17,530 --> 00:19:20,600 lets you connect your phone to a virtual environment, 465 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,240 to real practical things you can make. 466 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,430 And that I think, is very exciting. 467 00:19:25,430 --> 00:19:28,340 But will that rise to the level of Ready Player One? 468 00:19:28,340 --> 00:19:31,460 I don't know if it's technically possible in the next decade, 469 00:19:31,460 --> 00:19:34,130 and I'm not even sure people want that. 470 00:19:34,130 --> 00:19:37,030 So just to get back to this idea of-- my research area 471 00:19:37,030 --> 00:19:37,990 is photogrammetry. 472 00:19:37,990 --> 00:19:44,140 And so just to get back to this concept of, OK, you can take-- 473 00:19:44,140 --> 00:19:47,410 the metaverse could allow you to take a 3D image of your-- create 474 00:19:47,410 --> 00:19:51,220 a 3D model of yourself and, all of a sudden, or of anything. 475 00:19:51,220 --> 00:19:53,180 There's really cool aspects to that. 476 00:19:53,180 --> 00:19:56,680 But you also then get into the really potential dangers 477 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,710 of what we already see with deepfakes 478 00:19:59,710 --> 00:20:02,710 or if people making it look like our president 479 00:20:02,710 --> 00:20:05,260 is saying one thing or doing one thing. 480 00:20:05,260 --> 00:20:07,082 And you get into some serious danger. 481 00:20:07,082 --> 00:20:09,040 So could you talk to us a little bit about what 482 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:13,420 may be the dangers that we have to be 483 00:20:13,420 --> 00:20:17,260 aware of as we move forward into the next 10 years 484 00:20:17,260 --> 00:20:18,560 or whatever it might be? 485 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:19,160 Yeah. 486 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,820 And I think that's especially an interesting problem 487 00:20:21,820 --> 00:20:26,110 because, for example, we already have a problem today with people 488 00:20:26,110 --> 00:20:28,490 going on Twitter and pretending to be someone else. 489 00:20:28,490 --> 00:20:31,130 Someone pretending to be the president is obvious. 490 00:20:31,130 --> 00:20:33,752 Like if the president starts saying a bunch of swears 491 00:20:33,752 --> 00:20:35,710 on Twitter, that's probably not-- it's probably 492 00:20:35,710 --> 00:20:36,590 not the president. 493 00:20:36,590 --> 00:20:41,300 But it is very easy to impersonate someone else, 494 00:20:41,300 --> 00:20:44,020 like someone you don't like at your school, someone 495 00:20:44,020 --> 00:20:45,200 you don't like at work. 496 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,580 You could create dozens of accounts impersonating someone 497 00:20:48,580 --> 00:20:51,460 with just a photo and a couple of tweets 498 00:20:51,460 --> 00:20:57,582 in a virtual environment like we haven't really considered, 499 00:20:57,582 --> 00:21:00,410 could you pretend to be someone else? 500 00:21:00,410 --> 00:21:03,620 There's also new forms of digital harassment. 501 00:21:03,620 --> 00:21:06,580 It took almost no time for Facebook 502 00:21:06,580 --> 00:21:11,080 to have to create new rules about how close to people 503 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:15,030 could stand next to each other in a virtual environment, 504 00:21:15,030 --> 00:21:18,000 because originally someone could walk right up to you 505 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:19,950 and just be right in your face, making 506 00:21:19,950 --> 00:21:22,410 it impossible to see what's going on through your camera. 507 00:21:22,410 --> 00:21:25,170 So Facebook said or Meta, I suppose, 508 00:21:25,170 --> 00:21:27,520 said, well, now we'll create a barrier. 509 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,480 So you have to be X distance away from each other 510 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,130 and you can't push into that space. 511 00:21:33,130 --> 00:21:37,200 But then that raises questions of could five people surround 512 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,252 you and make it impossible to move in a virtual space? 513 00:21:40,252 --> 00:21:41,710 Could they physically blockade you. 514 00:21:41,710 --> 00:21:44,740 And these are just questions that the systems, 515 00:21:44,740 --> 00:21:46,840 assuming they even take off at all, 516 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,800 have to be built with the possibility of harassment 517 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:54,000 and impersonation and abuse and crime. 518 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,787 I guess just my last question is, are you hopeful? 519 00:21:57,787 --> 00:21:59,370 Do you have a positive outlook on what 520 00:21:59,370 --> 00:22:02,470 the concept of the metaverse brings? 521 00:22:02,470 --> 00:22:04,510 Or are you more worried? 522 00:22:04,510 --> 00:22:06,690 Not that it's all rosy, but do you 523 00:22:06,690 --> 00:22:09,270 think it's going to be a net positive the influx 524 00:22:09,270 --> 00:22:12,000 of these technologies and these experiences, 525 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,200 which is what the terms I will use to describe the metaverse? 526 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,540 Or are you more worried about the problems they bring, 527 00:22:17,540 --> 00:22:19,957 which we've been kind of talking about for a little while? 528 00:22:19,957 --> 00:22:22,090 I think in terms of the technologies 529 00:22:22,090 --> 00:22:25,660 that we see today, augmented reality, motion tracking, 530 00:22:25,660 --> 00:22:27,470 photogrammetry, for example, those 531 00:22:27,470 --> 00:22:28,970 are all technologies that excite me. 532 00:22:28,970 --> 00:22:31,760 I love seeing what you can do with those. 533 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,520 I've been obsessed with, like virtual production. 534 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,190 I'm somewhat of a film guy, and I'm 535 00:22:36,190 --> 00:22:38,023 obsessed with virtual productions and stuff. 536 00:22:38,023 --> 00:22:39,800 That excites me. 537 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:41,680 I also get excited about platforms 538 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,940 that allow people to express themselves creatively. 539 00:22:43,940 --> 00:22:47,170 If there becomes a virtual reality platform that 540 00:22:47,170 --> 00:22:50,240 enables creative expression in a way we haven't seen before, 541 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:51,590 that does excite me. 542 00:22:51,590 --> 00:22:56,050 However, I think that when we talk about the metaverse, that 543 00:22:56,050 --> 00:22:59,330 is where I get a little more cynical, I'll admit, 544 00:22:59,330 --> 00:23:02,680 because when we talk about technology 545 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,820 in vague and conceptual terms, it 546 00:23:06,820 --> 00:23:11,200 becomes easier to obfuscate problems 547 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,560 with systems like harassment or discrimination or whatnot. 548 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,810 I don't think we discuss the concept of discrimination 549 00:23:16,810 --> 00:23:17,620 in the metaverse. 550 00:23:17,620 --> 00:23:20,673 And it makes it difficult for people 551 00:23:20,673 --> 00:23:22,090 who have to buy this stuff, people 552 00:23:22,090 --> 00:23:23,680 who have to sign on to the platforms 553 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,730 to know what they're being involved with. 554 00:23:25,730 --> 00:23:28,310 I've talked to a lot of people about the metaverse. 555 00:23:28,310 --> 00:23:32,750 And just like you, they have almost no idea what it means. 556 00:23:32,750 --> 00:23:35,800 And that's a tough place to be in when someone's 557 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:40,840 asking you to buy a product, to use it every day, to sign on 558 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,660 to a service when you don't know what it's going to mean. 559 00:23:44,660 --> 00:23:47,470 So what I try to do in my work is focus on 560 00:23:47,470 --> 00:23:51,010 the specifics of what actually exists as opposed 561 00:23:51,010 --> 00:23:52,640 to grand visions. 562 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:58,190 The tech industry as a whole generally relies on futurism. 563 00:23:58,190 --> 00:24:03,140 They rely on being able to tell you that this is the future, 564 00:24:03,140 --> 00:24:04,580 this is what's coming next. 565 00:24:04,580 --> 00:24:06,920 This is the grand shift that's happening. 566 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,460 And sometimes, there are big shifts that happen. 567 00:24:10,460 --> 00:24:12,880 But a lot of times there's a lot of technology 568 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,640 that's just good for some things and that's fine. 569 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,360 It's OK for VR and AR and all these technologies 570 00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:22,960 to be useful for a few cool tasks 571 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,710 rather than being a big shift that fundamentally changes 572 00:24:26,710 --> 00:24:29,170 society every 10 years because we 573 00:24:29,170 --> 00:24:34,090 do need to consider the challenges society already faces 574 00:24:34,090 --> 00:24:38,230 before rushing to apply technology to a social task it's 575 00:24:38,230 --> 00:24:39,724 not suited for. 576 00:24:39,724 --> 00:24:42,940 [MUSIC PLAYING] 577 00:24:42,940 --> 00:24:43,440 578 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,730 We asked today, what is the metaverse? 579 00:24:46,730 --> 00:24:50,340 And while I feel that we know a lot more about it than we 580 00:24:50,340 --> 00:24:52,590 did at the start of the episode, it 581 00:24:52,590 --> 00:24:57,170 is very clear that the metaverse itself is still being defined. 582 00:24:57,170 --> 00:24:59,010 So the experts we talked to agree we 583 00:24:59,010 --> 00:25:01,350 aren't going to be living in a Ready Player One world 584 00:25:01,350 --> 00:25:02,260 anytime soon. 585 00:25:02,260 --> 00:25:03,800 I know that's hard for you, Scott 586 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:04,300 Yep. 587 00:25:04,300 --> 00:25:05,910 Shedding tears right now. 588 00:25:05,910 --> 00:25:08,520 It's not because of lack of vision or missing 589 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,040 link in the technology, it's just because we're 590 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,460 in the very early stages, where computers and software haven't 591 00:25:14,460 --> 00:25:15,820 yet catch up to the vision. 592 00:25:15,820 --> 00:25:19,000 It's a path many researchers and companies are working on today. 593 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,160 Just hopefully they can move faster. 594 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,420 I think that the more that the metaverse becomes 595 00:25:24,420 --> 00:25:27,180 part of our reality, the more we're 596 00:25:27,180 --> 00:25:29,220 going to have to consider the challenges 597 00:25:29,220 --> 00:25:30,760 it's going to present. 598 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,380 Like, how could it manifest similar problems 599 00:25:34,380 --> 00:25:38,400 we see in the real world, like harassment or theft 600 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:39,900 or discrimination? 601 00:25:39,900 --> 00:25:43,180 And being ahead of these problems 602 00:25:43,180 --> 00:25:45,530 is a huge part of the battle. 603 00:25:45,530 --> 00:25:49,210 And I think we're going to see companies like Meta 604 00:25:49,210 --> 00:25:51,255 handle it going forward. 605 00:25:51,255 --> 00:25:52,630 So while disappointing, we're not 606 00:25:52,630 --> 00:25:54,760 going to be in Ready Player One immediately, 607 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:56,900 in the meantime or at least the near future. 608 00:25:56,900 --> 00:26:00,370 It's interesting, the metaverse could allow disabled people 609 00:26:00,370 --> 00:26:02,540 to interact and experience things like seeing, 610 00:26:02,540 --> 00:26:04,120 hear, and interacting with others 611 00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:07,340 in a way they currently can't in their non metaverse lives. 612 00:26:07,340 --> 00:26:10,312 And eventually, the metaverse will fully define itself, 613 00:26:10,312 --> 00:26:11,770 and technology will start living up 614 00:26:11,770 --> 00:26:13,390 to the science fiction novels. 615 00:26:13,390 --> 00:26:15,160 Based on what we learned today, I'm 616 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,530 expecting and hoping a much bigger impact 617 00:26:17,530 --> 00:26:20,370 on how we work, play, and go about our day to day lives. 618 00:26:20,370 --> 00:26:23,450 619 00:26:23,450 --> 00:26:26,610 Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Data Nation. 620 00:26:26,610 --> 00:26:29,870 This podcast is brought to you by MIT's Institute 621 00:26:29,870 --> 00:26:31,980 for Data Systems, and Society. 622 00:26:31,980 --> 00:26:34,890 And if you want to learn more about what IDSS does, 623 00:26:34,890 --> 00:26:38,720 please follow us at MIT IDSS on Twitter 624 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,520 or visit our website at IDSS.Mit.edu. 625 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:54,000