Josh (00:00.998) Brilliant. Well, I'm really much getting my nerds all wixed up. I'm very much looking forward to this. I know when you and I connected the first time, you're like, I'm just a guy. And to me, that makes this whole thing so much more approachable because you're just a guy, but you've amassed over 300,000 followers on TikTok. You have this really great message. And I'm interviewing doctors and specialists from all over the world, doctors with more education than I could ever gain in a lifetime at this point. And
It's almost too much, especially for the average population. This is why I love your message so much around food, life, nutrition, food labels, food lies, gut health, immunity, all these different things. So that's sort of a brief introduction that I kind of did for you, but tell me about you, who you are, what is Tonic Health, and what message do you share, and why do people wanna listen to you?
Sunna van Kampen (00:52.283) Thank you for that kind introduction. And yeah, you know, absolutely, I am a normal guy. And what I've been lucky enough, I guess, ever since a young age, my mom was always a bit into alternative health and naturopathic kind of medicine. Whenever I got sick as a kid, she'd always bring out her herbal book of tinctures and things from Switzerland that she needed to give me to get me better. And whilst I rejected that as a teenager, and A. McDonald's and...
French fries like the rest of us, as I got older, I started to realize the value in it and the importance of health. So ever since my mid-20s, I left a corporate career in banking to follow my passion, which was kind of healthy living and food and drinks specifically. So went into CPG, fast moving consumer goods, and worked for a baby food company. And then from there, have worked for...
coffee companies, chocolate companies, kombucha companies, you name it, yogurts, gut health. I've basically sold most of it in the supermarket and been involved in these companies who are actually producing food and health. And throughout that process I've understood what goes into making a food product, but also how to persuade people and help people understand why something is better versus not because for a long time
I've spent years trying to persuade people this is healthy and this is better for you and helping people hear that message has been really important to me and more so than anything actually with my dad who lived his life like the rest of us, putting two teaspoons of sugar into his cup of tea three, four times a day, a couple of glasses of wine most evenings and at the weekend a nice big bag of kettle chips.
as a treat and you know, at some point I started to realize what he was doing and how bad it was for him and wanted him to be healthier. And in that process, I just realized how it doesn't matter what information he has, right? He had me in the food industry telling him all the time for years and it just didn't land. It didn't, he couldn't do it. He couldn't get beyond, you know, what roles those
Sunna van Kampen (03:18.203) foods played in his life and those kinds of things. And to go cold turkey from something that is so addictive as a bag of crisps or sugar, right? I mean, they've linked sugar to being as addictive as addictive to cocaine, right? So like, it's incredibly addictive stuff. And we are ultimately controlled by our biology and our need for food and cessation and cessation. And to just go, oh, count calories and stop doing this is like...
something the majority of the population will never do, in my view. So that led me into trying to find ways basically of explaining to people really simple ways to be healthier, daily changes, daily swaps, daily health hacks, whatever it may be, just to make things that little bit healthier, right? It's different for everybody, right? Everyone has this nagging down in the back of my mind that's like...
I want to be a bit healthier, I want to be a bit better, I want to do this, but we don't always know how. We don't always know how. So that is what we kind of, or I stumbled on on social media where, actually it first came through my dad, where I broke it down and I didn't tell him to stop that moment of eating a bag of crisps on a Friday night. I swapped it for a bag of, you know, dried cheese crisps. Right? So.
Josh (04:20.488) how.
Sunna van Kampen (04:45.923) high fat, high protein, more filling, not deep fried in seed oils and whatever else. So you're like, okay, cool. And so he could do that because it wasn't so much of a sacrifice for him. He still got that pleasure.
Josh (04:57.258) It's not about stopping, right? It's about changing what you're doing.
Sunna van Kampen (05:00.847) Exactly. And it was still allowing him that pleasurable moment of unwinding on a Friday that everybody wants, not worrying about calories or putting a complex system in play that he has to adhere to, which then is too much for most people to deal with. And he did it. And from that point on, he never ever had crisps on the weekend anymore. And I was like, wow, okay.
And then what else can I do? I couldn't stop him to drink, I couldn't stop him to get from drinking wine, but I could stop, I could get him to swap his wine from a Malbec, which is very heavy and higher in sugar, to a Pinot Noir, which is about 30 to 50% less in sugar, dependent on the variety, or the type. So then he's cutting out a significant amount of sugar because he was drinking five nights a week, he'd have a couple of glasses of wine or something, just to wind out.
So it's those little incremental changes. And then, you know, we just started sharing that to people, going into supermarkets, going into people's cupboards and fridges and trying to just explain this message and explain how simple it can be. And, you know, just not demonizing it, not making it complicated. Just say, look, if you're gonna eat crisps, fine, but here's a bunch of crisps that are 30% less fat or they're...
yet baked, not fried, and these are why that would be better for you. And just making those little changes, an option for people and helping educate them. So that was a bit of a long background to kind of my story. And then I can get into Tonic, if you want me to as well.
Josh (06:40.202) Yeah, I'd love to talk about that. And something that's really interesting that I think needs to be understood because it's been hammered in for so long is that if you eat less calories, you will lose weight or you will be healthier or your gut will improve or your whatever. And when we actually look at the consumer trends over the years, say the last 30 years, since 1970, 75, human beings, particularly in North America, where we get some of the most of this data from, we're not consuming more calories. We're consuming poor quality of calories.
It's not the calories we need to be counting as so much as it is the chemicals in our food or the additives. This is where people are getting sick.
Sunna van Kampen (07:16.347) Well, yeah, and you know, it's funny, right? We live in this world where people get attached to their ideas, right? You've got the WHO came out, I think it was yesterday or the day before, doing big analysis and work across 160 odd studies to do with the effectiveness of artificial sweeteners in losing weight. Did they actually help, right?
And the WHO have recommended actually people who tend to consume a lot of artificial sweeteners tend to have higher risks of type 2 diabetes, other things, and the overall impact in losing weight just hasn't been there. And you'll get the gym junkies and the calories elots kind of coming out of the woodwork and going, this is not the calories of calories. But what everyone seems to be ignoring in the equation is this is about...
your mind in terms of what you choose on and the choices you make in a daily basis and your biology about, you know, this satiety of food, the cravings you'll get dependent on what you eat and how your body reacts to certain things. Because I mean, evolutionary speaking, our number one driver as a human race is to like feed our bodies so we don't die, right? It's, you know, it's
Josh (08:39.318) Yeah, it's very primal.
Sunna van Kampen (08:41.811) is primal, it's hardwired into us. If we're hungry, you will not be able to get that off your mind until you do something about it, right? You won't be able to concentrate at work, you won't be able to do this. So the premise of just saying count calories, you'll be fine is nonsense because you have to put yourself in a state of hunger for a lot of the time. Whereas like you mentioned, it's like, well, what about the quality, you know, of the calories?
actually, hence why I got my dad onto these kind of cheese crisps is, well, it's fat and protein, it's more filling. Sure, it's got a ton more calories, but it's filling, so he'll probably end up eating less. And then once he's done it, he's full rather than eating crisps and killing the whole bag and then still kind of being peckish and hungry and doing whatever else, right? And it's these drivers and mechanisms that actually ultimately affect...
our health outcomes and our patient outcomes or whatever you want to call it. The food industry, the farmer industry, everyone seems to have kind of forgotten about and ignored, right? You can argue all day long what's good, what's bad, what's right, what's wrong, but we can all see the macro data that's just getting worse and worse and worse from a pop. Sad.
Josh (09:53.29) sickness is on the rise. I mean, one of the stats from the CDC, 66% of Americans, American adults, are on at least one regular prescription medication. Something like 70% of adults over age 50 take at least five prescription medications. And so we've subscribed to this idea where we need these artificially produced chemicals in order to survive, which makes no sense. I mean, how do we get to here at this point in time?
I don't care what you believe, thousands of years, millions or billions, or if we evolved from fish, frogs and tadpoles, we had to get here somewhere before these chemicals and drugs. So what is so wrong with our food and our quality today that leads us to need these drugs? And I'd love to ask, because you do such great content on these pieces, what are some of the common chemicals or preservatives or artificial anythings you're seeing in food that you think is causing the biggest issue? And what can people look for?
to both prevent that for themselves or find an alternative.
Sunna van Kampen (10:51.451) That's a very good question. And I don't know if I can truly have the answer to what's the biggest cause or what's the issue. I've seen, well, yeah, and it's not one, right? If there was a silver bullet and it was this one thing that was causing everything, it would be very easy for us to identify it, stop it, and put rules and regulations in place so it couldn't happen again. But the reality is it's death by a thousand cups. And it's...
Josh (11:00.106) There's so many. Ha ha ha.
Sunna van Kampen (11:21.475) pain for like the big food and pharma and the industries, they know that, you know, a little bit of diet coke here and there, not a problem, right? We're resilient. Humans are resilient. We're adaptable. We're designed to be adaptable. So give us a bit of chemical, we're fine. Give us another bit of chemical, we're fine. This in isolation, a day, fine. But then when you put it in everything, and it's gone from being just in this one thing to basically all the food we eat, and then we do that consistently for 10.
15, 20, 30 years, whatever it may be, that's when you see the downstream consequences, but it's very hard for people to track it back then and go, oh, well, it's because of this particular ingredient that's happened. So it's hard to trace, right? You'll have people say sugar's the biggest problem. You'll have people now saying seed oils are the biggest problem out there.
Josh (12:04.635) It's been so diluted, it's hard to trace.
Sunna van Kampen (12:16.811) and you'll have people saying it was e-numbers at one time and then preservatives and colors and all these things right and I genuinely don't know which one's the worst like I don't think there's any data or conclusive evidence saying this is it guys but what I view is I have a fundamental belief ultimately in the power of nature and our human biology right and so my assumption
which is an assumption, but it's so far, I don't think anyone's proven this to be incorrect, which is if it's natural and it's unprocessed as possible, it's gonna be better for you than if it's not. And so, you know, simple ways to look at this in your everyday life is just turn over the backpack, look at the ingredients list, right? How many are in there? On average, the more ingredients, the worse it is for you.
I mean, obviously in a vitamin like tonic, the more, you're gonna have more vitamins in there, so that's actually better for you, so that's probably the only, the exception that proves the rule, but on processed food ingredients, it's very much the more ingredients, the more I would stay away from it. You can make food that's real, right? Everyone asks me, it's always so complicated. What do you do? And I'm like, it's not complicated. Eat real food, you know, meat, vegetables.
That's it, start there, just eat meat and vegetables and learn how to cook if you don't know how to cook because if you can cook those real ingredients and by and large you're just eating stuff in the grocery store from the fruit and veg or from the meat section or maybe the cheese section which is minimally processed stuff, you're not gonna go too far wrong. It's real food that our grandparents ate. The perimeter, exactly.
Josh (14:04.558) perimeter of the grocery store.
love that. So I was actually just taking a look here at your account because again, I mean you've asked quite a following. You got some viral videos why acetamol, benicol, and yucca aren't really good for you. Food shops, you've got shocking ingredients and healthy kids vitamins. What are some of the things that you're finding people want to know more about? Like what kind of trends and things that you're talking about really go viral? You got 10 million views on this video, two and a half on these other ones. What types of things?
Do you think people need to know the most about or want to know the most about?
Sunna van Kampen (14:42.991) I mean, the ones that go viral tend to be the ones that are most shocking just because of the way social media works, but you know, it's often like the one you mentioned, Actimel, Benicol, and Yakol, which are these kind of probiotic drinks. They're actually ones in the UK, but you have similar things here in the US. And it's, you know, they're claiming to be healthy, claiming to be good for your gut, right?
the gut health products, everyone's like, oh, gut health, the trend, I need to look after my gut, let me go buy some Yakol. And then you look at the ingredients in that thing and the amount of sugar that's in it, and you go, well, okay, so there might be some probiotics in it, but it's one strain, right? It's just one strain, it's not a diverse group of strains, so you question the efficacy on that anyway, because the more we understand about the gut microbiome, it's more about diversity than it is just like 20 billion of one strain.
And then you look at the other ingredients and I mean I can't remember off the top of my head exactly what's in it so I don't want to get in trouble by saying something that's not but you know, there's Sugar and sugar isn't good for the gut. Sugar's been shown to proliferate bad bacteria in the gut there's other like preservatives and you know things in there that just They're not gonna be good for your gut based on what we know so if you were a food company and this is where I always come from with my ethics is
Josh (15:46.289) Sure.
Sunna van Kampen (16:09.023) If you were a food company and you care for your customer's gut, you would not make this product. And that's what I try and shed light on a little bit, whether it be kids' vitamins, because, hey, I had a baby 18 months ago and I went and had a look because I needed to get my kids some vitamins. And I was like, hmm, why is the first ingredient in my kids' vitamin sugar? If I care about my kids' health...
I wouldn't be giving them a sweep first thing in the morning to get their day started, right? And in some of those vitamins, it's up to a teaspoon of sugar first thing in the morning. I mean, can you imagine doing that to your kid first thing in the morning? Off you go to school, there you go, there's your sugar, get on with your day, and you wonder why they're...
Josh (16:54.066) Just a teaspoon of white sugar.
Sunna van Kampen (16:56.835) You wonder why they have bad teeth. You wonder why they had struggled to concentrate at school. Like you wonder why they have crashes and like go really hyper and then really low. And you know, it's, we're doing it to ourselves in a way, or the food companies are just trying to make cheap products that everyone buy and you know, I'm just trying to shed light on it basically and share what I know of how the body works and help people with these very like.
misunderstood places, right? Because most people when they buy a vitamin, they assume they're doing something good for their health, but it's not always the case.
Josh (17:30.67) It's really interesting you say that, especially when it comes to kids and kid vitamins. Sugar, gummies, red dye 40, yellow and blue dye, and allure red and all these different things. These chemicals we know cause concentration issues. They can lead to ADHD behaviors, autism-like symptoms and behaviors. They can lead to peaks and valleys and crashes. Then we'll look, my kid isn't focusing in school. Let's go to the doctor who gives them ADHD drugs, which are amphetamines.
And so these things start to pile up in the body and pile up and pile up. And these behavioral issues start to happen. So we give drugs and then the drugs cause side effects. We have more drugs by age 20, they have autoimmune conditions or skin issues for which we give more drugs and nobody's going back to the root cause. Which is the food ingredients in our health. And there is little to no evidence whatsoever that these artificial vitamins are beneficial. You know, if we look at something like vitamin B9, right?
Pregnant women, give them folic acid. Folic acid helps with cognitive function, helps with neurogenesis and like neurological development in a baby, in a growing fetus. But there are no studies showing that folic acid is actually good for that. And quote me on that, any listeners here, if I'm wrong, I haven't found a single study. In fact, I was just listening to something from Gary Brekker talking about something very similar, where there are no studies showing folic acid is good, but folate, it's a natural form.
is good for us, right? Benign or methyl, folate, these things are really good for us. There are no folic acids anywhere in nature, period, ever. They're manufactured.
Sunna van Kampen (18:54.657) It's good.
Sunna van Kampen (19:05.387) Well, but you don't even have to go into that much detail, which always can be argued, right? But you just have to look at globally, there's $164 billion spent a year on health supplements. $164 billion globally. Yet, in the data, 95% of the US don't get the estimated average intake of something like vitamin D.
And when you look at like blood levels, population level, about 74% of us are still insufficient in a particular nutrient. So you just have to look at that data and no one can argue with you that something isn't right in the industry, that whatever's being put out there and manufactured and made isn't driving health outcomes. Because when you spend that much on supplements, you should be getting a positive health outcome.
And that's essentially why I started a private company and wanted to change it.
Josh (20:04.942) I love that. This is exactly why I brought you on, right? I go into all these details and these studies and talk about pediatrics and obstetrics and all the medication and how certain vitamins interact and nature and growth. And you're like, just look at the data. And this is what I think people need because I, even working with people can over complicate things so much. This is why I think it's so important for us to have different voices, bringing on well-educated doctors and biologists and people with all these education. And then a guy like you who says, I'm just some guy.
but you're well educated because you keep it simple and you educated yourself. And that education in many ways is easier to pass along to the general public and the general consumers. I think people need more of that. So tell me about Tonic Health. What is Tonic about? And we can find you on TikTok at Tonic Health, but what is your company? What do you guys do and how are you supporting this message through your products?
Sunna van Kampen (20:59.587) Well, so it's exactly, you know, where it came from was when I was back in banking, actually, I used to get sick three or four times a winter with a cold or flu or whatever that was going around. I was the guy that always got it first and caught it. And I was like, damn, what's going on? To the point where people were calling me out and saying, why are you always sick? You like play sport, you think you eat healthy. And, you know, through a bit of then going, I need to change this, I went on a bit of a mission to understand it.
I spoke to doctors, nutritionists and understood I had nutrient deficiencies. And that then in turn affected the quality of my immune health. And I was just, you know, the whole phallus of you catch a cold is forgetting one thing, which is you have an immune system in between you and the virus and it can not get away very easily or it can just not do anything and you get sick. And so I kind of discovered this and then went to the supplement.
section in the grocery store and was like, oh wow, okay. Because I'd already talked to nutritionists and understood a bit about healthy ingredients and I didn't drink Diet Coke and all that crap. So new artificial sweeteners weren't great for me. And looked at it and I was like, wow, everything either has sugar or artificial sweeteners, or it's based on the daily value recommended allowance of how much we have in each hand and it says 100%. But I discovered through working with a really
Well, that level, I would have to take that supplement for 12 months consistently before it would actually have an impact on my deficiency. Because in order to correct that deficiency and get myself to an optimal level, I need much higher doses.
Josh (22:44.146) It's almost like your bank account's in debt and you have to fill that back to get back in the black before you see the positive outcome.
Sunna van Kampen (22:50.171) Exactly and to be honest that's where most of the population is. Most of the population is in depth with their health and so as a result I looked at the entire industry and I was like wow basically you have a ton of sovereign companies making loads of money because they're selling you the minimum viable dose right for loads of money and making big profits but no one's going okay what's the optimal amount and the science and the literature is quite clear that
you know, here's your minimum amount you need to prevent deficiency disease and here's your optimal amount for optimal health. But the whole industry is operating down here at the minimum viable amount. And I'm like, wow, this needs to change. And so that was my kind of aha moment, which I then set out about on a journey to get my knowledge, work for other companies like the baby food company I did and coffee and chocolate and tea. So I understood the industry, how it worked and then had.
the resources and capability to launch Tonic myself and try and make a difference. So we've, as a business in a nutshell, always been about max strength doses that are no sugar, no junk, very simple.
Josh (24:00.042) I like that. So how do you get around the legalities of it? Maybe it's different because I know you're in Texas right now. You're in the US. And is your company US based?
Sunna van Kampen (24:09.543) Well, so we now have two entities, one in the UK and one in the US.
Josh (24:13.598) And so how do you get around some of the legalities between it? Because if we go into technically what's a therapeutic dose versus a daily maintenance dose, right? Being two different strengths and concentrations, how do we get around the legalities before it becomes a medication or a prescription of some kind? How do you guys label that as just a something?
Sunna van Kampen (24:23.769) Yeah.
Sunna van Kampen (24:32.163) Um, so it's, you know, everything we make is from a natural food ingredient, which classes it as a food supplement ultimately, um, because you, for it to be in medicine, it has to be registered with the FDA and there's a whole process you have to go through it, but you also can't all of a sudden decide tomorrow that vitamin C is medicine and therefore it has to be classed as a drug. It's a natural thing that occurs in an orange, so you can't really do anything. Um, and it's the same thing around, you know,
You can't trademark a natural formula or anything. It's natural, it's nature. You can't do it. All I can do is combine it in the right ways to harness it and take it forward. Around the legalities, I always just default to it's not me that's doing this. It's not the product that's doing this. It's your own body's power. So whenever we talk about what your body can do, we talk about what your immune system can do.
we talk about what you can do. I don't say buy this product, it does X, because that's when you get into a difficult, you know, regulations around claims and things that you would have to go through the FDA for and have clinical studies and evidence to support it. It becomes very expensive and very difficult. And it's essentially a bit of a Chinese wall that built around medicines, so that only the big pharma can really afford to play in that game. But...
You know, there's ways to do it, which is educate the masses like I'm trying to do on the power of your own body and what it can achieve if you just make simple daily lifestyle choices and buy good quality products and how much difference you can feel.
Josh (26:16.566) that. Love that. Well, Sana, I have gone through all the questions I really have, but one of my favorite questions to ask right at the end of an interview is, is there anything else that we missed? Any other topics you think are important to talk about? Any other points that you really think people should really know just to hammer home?
Sunna van Kampen (26:37.351) Good question. I mean, there's loads that I could go into, but I think the most important, because for us as a brand, we are not a high-end, $100 a month, premium, best in class with everything you could possibly ever want to consume in it. We're trying to make a difference at the more mass consumer level and make a smaller impact, I guess.
Josh (26:40.351) I'm sorry.
Sunna van Kampen (27:07.227) but on a larger scale with more people. And as a result, the biggest thing I would say is, and what I've learned through speaking to so many people and reading tons and tons of comments we get on socials is, it doesn't matter where you are. It doesn't matter what you're doing or what stage you're in in your health journey or being the perfect biohacker or whatever you wanna call it. You just have to take one step today.
You just have to make one choice, one decision that means you're a little bit healthier today than you were yesterday. And then just build that into who you are and part of your life so that each day you're making better and better and better and better choices. Because that's actually ultimately what drives change rather than a big, right, three month beach body ready.
going to count these calories, going to go for it. And then most people start it, do a couple of weeks, don't see results and then bounce out or have a bad night and then, you know, struggle to sleep or whatever. And then they just, they lose it and they're off the wagon and they go back to doing whatever they did before. It's all about like sustainable little changes that just become part of who you are. And it doesn't matter where you begin it. That's the beauty of it.
Josh (28:27.046) Love it. Really quick, can you give me some examples that you find are really easy for people to change? You mentioned going from a bag of chips to a bag of baked cheese crisp, something maybe going from a pop to a carbonated beverage with fruit mixed in. What are some common snacks that you see a lot of people consuming that are some really simple alternatives they can take to start making some of these changes?
Sunna van Kampen (28:49.059) Yeah, very good question. You know, like I say, it can be anywhere from, you know, if you drink alcohol, like I mentioned, swap to a lower sugar alcohol. Alcohol is not good. It's never going to be good. But if you can swap to a lower sugar one, it will have less of an impact. Or if you can swap to a lower alcohol version, that can also be a great way to do it. So there's a lot of like IPAs coming out now, which are called like session IPAs, which instead of being a 5% beer, they're 3%.
or like 2.3%. So you can still enjoy that moment of having beer and alcohol, but you can actually cut your alcohol consumption in half, right, which is gonna have a net positive impact if you do that consistently over a long time. So I'd say, you know, that would be one way to go in alcohol, you know, little things on a daily basis, like what are you eating for breakfast? That's always a key one, like starting your day right with a nutritious filling meal is very important to them.
snacking and behavior later in the day. So, you know, for me, it's simple. My breakfast is my favorite bit of the day. You can get a nice, really good quality Greek yogurt. I know it's expensive and it is more expensive, but you literally get double the amount of protein in the Greek yogurt versus just some random yogurt and make sure it's a full fat because that will help fill you up for longer and the fat in your yogurt isn't bad for you.
you know, get that into your day start. And then the other one would be just eat more eggs, probably. Everyone pretty much loves brunch and eggs. So it's always a good one to just say, look, my lunch most days is eggs. I usually have my Greek yogurt for breakfast. And then lunch is eggs any which way you make them, right? You can make omelets, you can make scrambled, you can make fried, but eggs are highly nutritious and will fill you up and give you a lot more energy for the day. So.
There are a few sort of simple ones to go after early because I think you'll notice the biggest impact in those ways ultimately.
Josh (30:56.202) love that. I pick up some stuff too, because I do enjoy a drink, but I don't drink alcohol. So I'll pick up a Near beer or there's a company I like here. It's called SoBeer, right? It's a sober beer. There's no alcohol content, but it tastes like a beer so I can enjoy that. Or there's these other ones, these Smart Suites. They have them here in Canada. I don't know if they're down there yet at all. I don't know how big the company is. I have no affiliation. Oh, you do? Cool. Oh, good. Okay.
Sunna van Kampen (31:20.78) No, they're in the US. I've seen them down here.
Josh (31:23.406) I might ask them for a sponsor for this episode now, but I'm a big fan because I have a sweet tooth. But these ones, the green and their blue is dyed with chlorella and spirulina and their red is in oranges, carrots and beets and it's all vegetable based. Is it a perfect food? No. Is it better than high fructose corn syrup and red dye 40? Absolutely unquestionably. Lots of alternatives.
Sunna van Kampen (31:25.923) Hehehe
Sunna van Kampen (31:45.395) And that's the way, right? If we sit here and say, right guys, you've got to stop eating sweets, never gonna happen. But, you know, people love that moving eye. They love those coming candies, you know, but there's just better ways to do it. And if you can make that transition to smart sweets, this is a great example of something that, you know, is much better for you than the standard thing we used to eat. So go for it, do it that way, make those swaps initially, don't sacrifice anything.
and then see where your health is and see how much better you feel, how much more energy you've got and then take it from there. Do you want to go further? Do you want to keep getting better? And then there's more refinements you can do and we can start talking about jumping in an ice bath first thing in the morning. But that's quite a progression for where most people are.
Josh (32:32.382) Love that. Well, Sana, thanks so much for being here. Thank you for sharing all of your information, your expertise. I love that you are self-taught. I really hope that this gives people some hope to have it feel less overwhelming than coming from an expert like myself or even a doctor and these other professionals who make me look like an idiot, right? I mean, these guys have so much knowledge. It is hard for the average population to consume, and I hope they really find this very encouraging and inspiring to check out. So please do check out.
at Tonic Health on TikTok. You can check them out there, all kinds of stuff, all kinds of goodies and your brand, your supplement company, what is that one as well? Is that Tonic?
Sunna van Kampen (33:11.627) It's Tonic Health as well, and you'll find our website. It's just www.tonichealth.co or co. And you will find us in stores near you very soon as we're launching in Walmart in a couple of weeks time. So if you're listening to this in June, we'll be in Walmart's across the country in the US and selling, yeah, better for you, higher dose, max strength supplements without all the rubbish and sugar and junk, most of them.
Josh (33:14.098) Okay.
Josh (33:39.382) That's brilliant. Well, congratulations. That's a big deal to swing. I hope you guys really make a difference here because the world needs it. Thanks Tonic. So really quick, Sana, before I let you go.
Sunna van Kampen (33:46.051) Thank you, Josh. It's been great to talk.