1 00:00:00,290 --> 00:00:06,359 Hello and welcome to A Very Spatial Podcast, episode 756, March 2nd, 2025. 2 00:00:25,240 --> 00:00:26,830 Hello and welcome to A Very Spatial Podcast. 3 00:00:26,830 --> 00:00:27,470 I am Jesse. 4 00:00:27,860 --> 00:00:28,380 I'm Sue. 5 00:00:29,030 --> 00:00:29,539 I'm Barb. 6 00:00:29,780 --> 00:00:30,580 And this is Frank. 7 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,499 And this week we're going to talk about things because I 8 00:00:35,499 --> 00:00:37,019 don't know, Gulf of Mexico. 9 00:00:37,729 --> 00:00:43,479 First up in the news, Esri has put out various things in the announcement form, 10 00:00:43,489 --> 00:00:46,229 including updates to ArcGIS Online. 11 00:00:46,739 --> 00:00:50,129 If you, of course, are an education user, once again, you're 12 00:00:50,129 --> 00:00:51,769 thinking to yourself, but why? 13 00:00:52,079 --> 00:00:53,899 Why in the middle of the semester? 14 00:00:54,129 --> 00:00:54,789 Why? 15 00:00:55,469 --> 00:00:58,199 And here's the equally annoying thing. 16 00:00:58,569 --> 00:01:00,969 The ArcGIS Online updates February, right? 17 00:01:01,669 --> 00:01:02,799 Normally it's March. 18 00:01:02,979 --> 00:01:05,629 Could you just Stick with it. 19 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:08,579 If you can guess when it's going to be, you'll be like, all 20 00:01:08,579 --> 00:01:10,719 right, we're good till, but no, 21 00:01:10,849 --> 00:01:15,129 no, on the other side, most of the things don't go away. 22 00:01:15,129 --> 00:01:16,059 They get added. 23 00:01:16,069 --> 00:01:22,569 So less of an issue than compared to what it used to be whenever it was 24 00:01:22,569 --> 00:01:24,679 more of a total overhaul each time. 25 00:01:25,869 --> 00:01:28,849 Yes, the more subtle things aren't also as big a deal when you're trying to 26 00:01:28,849 --> 00:01:34,829 use educational tools and none of the, the screenshots or instructions match. 27 00:01:34,829 --> 00:01:38,249 That's always fun, but it seems to be less of an issue now. 28 00:01:38,279 --> 00:01:40,749 But there's some interesting updates. 29 00:01:41,439 --> 00:01:45,139 I like some of the updates to the animated symbols that we're looking at right now. 30 00:01:45,529 --> 00:01:48,229 Improved pop ups for multi dimensional imagery layers. 31 00:01:48,629 --> 00:01:50,279 I don't know, there's a lot of different things. 32 00:01:50,349 --> 00:01:54,399 You know, the web editor is, I think, out of beta now, so that is 33 00:01:54,719 --> 00:01:56,269 getting a little bit more powerful. 34 00:01:56,689 --> 00:02:00,029 Whenever you look at different analyses, there's a few new 35 00:02:00,779 --> 00:02:02,329 analyses that are available. 36 00:02:02,339 --> 00:02:05,349 Model Builder still is there now and in beta. 37 00:02:05,899 --> 00:02:07,349 What was the one I wanted to highlight? 38 00:02:07,359 --> 00:02:07,949 What was it? 39 00:02:08,789 --> 00:02:10,099 Oh, I won't remember. 40 00:02:10,389 --> 00:02:13,799 It was something in one of the third party apps. 41 00:02:14,059 --> 00:02:18,919 They've added to the content store the new app for commercial satellite imagery. 42 00:02:19,019 --> 00:02:22,400 You know, they keep on adding a lot more imagery to things. 43 00:02:23,389 --> 00:02:28,484 So that way you don't have to go through the Store whose name I can't remember 44 00:02:29,135 --> 00:02:33,285 But this is kind of more of a one off type of purchase if you want to do 45 00:02:33,285 --> 00:02:37,655 that as opposed to doing subscriptions Which the old store whose name I forget 46 00:02:38,475 --> 00:02:40,135 Is focused on those type of things. 47 00:02:40,145 --> 00:02:45,654 So if you want extensions and subscriptions go to the whatever it's 48 00:02:45,654 --> 00:02:51,300 called if you want specific data sets and and short term Access to things that's 49 00:02:51,310 --> 00:02:53,480 content store and I go on a little rant. 50 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:53,950 Sure. 51 00:02:54,250 --> 00:02:54,480 All right. 52 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,920 So this is something I had a rant earlier to Barbara when we were 53 00:02:57,920 --> 00:03:00,030 walking across campus this last week. 54 00:03:00,060 --> 00:03:05,029 And this online update feeds into it for lack of a better term or 55 00:03:05,109 --> 00:03:06,899 lack of what it does here is that. 56 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:08,720 Well, everyone's excited. 57 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:10,520 I don't think there's a lot of mention about AI in there. 58 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:11,650 I sort of scanned through it. 59 00:03:11,650 --> 00:03:15,530 I didn't see it, but still everyone's talking about geo AI. 60 00:03:15,989 --> 00:03:20,659 And I did notice that they've added some, some cool layers as 61 00:03:20,660 --> 00:03:23,510 they always do to living Atlas. 62 00:03:23,559 --> 00:03:24,609 Some really, you know. 63 00:03:25,125 --> 00:03:28,675 It's got the latest American community surveys layers in there and the Global 64 00:03:28,685 --> 00:03:32,195 Wind Atlas and the 2023 NAPE imagery. 65 00:03:32,205 --> 00:03:33,774 There's lots of cool stuff in there. 66 00:03:34,535 --> 00:03:37,365 This is my frustration with the Living Atlas. 67 00:03:37,424 --> 00:03:40,204 I can never find anything in it, like, ever. 68 00:03:40,675 --> 00:03:44,705 Like, if you go to look at things in the, what's, if you find on the website, 69 00:03:44,805 --> 00:03:45,955 this is what's in the Living Atlas. 70 00:03:45,955 --> 00:03:46,785 You're like, oh, that's amazing. 71 00:03:46,795 --> 00:03:47,485 And then I actually. 72 00:03:47,770 --> 00:03:50,840 Go into it and in the search thing in ArcGIS online, I type something. 73 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:56,349 I get a lot of results that typically are you know, a map somebody made or something 74 00:03:56,350 --> 00:04:00,130 like that that they published as public that you could, you know, go look at and 75 00:04:00,130 --> 00:04:04,880 stuff like that, which is cool, but I don't really understand why AI isn't more. 76 00:04:05,285 --> 00:04:09,195 Integrated into the living at plus search. 77 00:04:10,115 --> 00:04:12,165 It's just baffles me. 78 00:04:12,225 --> 00:04:15,775 I should be able to say, ask complicated questions in that search 79 00:04:15,775 --> 00:04:19,245 bar because I can do that in chat GPT and it should get back to me. 80 00:04:19,254 --> 00:04:21,494 Look, these are the things we think that apply. 81 00:04:21,775 --> 00:04:23,154 That's my little pet peeve rant. 82 00:04:23,564 --> 00:04:23,924 I don't know. 83 00:04:23,924 --> 00:04:26,504 I mean, I think I just wish they would do simple searches better. 84 00:04:28,534 --> 00:04:29,904 It's an endless frustration. 85 00:04:30,374 --> 00:04:32,995 Well, yeah, but I mean, you're playing with AI already. 86 00:04:33,005 --> 00:04:33,375 Yeah. 87 00:04:35,970 --> 00:04:40,350 Well, that's, but they're taking a very slow approach to it. 88 00:04:40,550 --> 00:04:43,470 And I don't necessarily disagree with, with that. 89 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:48,579 They are pushing the term AI, but a lot of that AI is the things 90 00:04:48,580 --> 00:04:49,760 that have been there already. 91 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:50,759 It's about machine learning. 92 00:04:50,769 --> 00:04:51,650 It's about deep learning. 93 00:04:51,989 --> 00:04:56,119 It's about those access to imagery and those types of things. 94 00:04:56,719 --> 00:04:57,119 It's. 95 00:04:57,629 --> 00:05:00,989 They're starting to put more of the generative AI in there, but a 96 00:05:00,989 --> 00:05:06,519 lot of the AI they're still pushing in the geo AI at Esri is, is a lot 97 00:05:06,519 --> 00:05:09,849 of the AI we've been doing for, you know, years, if not decades. 98 00:05:10,129 --> 00:05:12,409 Well, yeah, I have no problem with that AI going slow on that. 99 00:05:12,409 --> 00:05:15,409 I'm just saying, just trying to find stuff and living Atlas is 100 00:05:15,469 --> 00:05:17,289 way harder than it needs to be. 101 00:05:17,659 --> 00:05:20,839 And we have better tools to make it less. 102 00:05:22,804 --> 00:05:24,984 And the way this came up is because there's some cool things they're 103 00:05:24,984 --> 00:05:29,734 doing with AI that it's in the living Atlas now having to do with 104 00:05:30,234 --> 00:05:34,635 debris for flooding, and then also something to do with wild fire smoke. 105 00:05:34,995 --> 00:05:37,669 And, you know, just asking, has any, you know. 106 00:05:37,759 --> 00:05:40,699 Anyone we know use this and how does, you know, how is it doing? 107 00:05:41,009 --> 00:05:43,459 And that got into, well, where do you even find it? 108 00:05:43,899 --> 00:05:47,059 Through the search, but those are some cool things going on. 109 00:05:47,299 --> 00:05:49,039 I did preferences by saying it was a rant. 110 00:05:49,529 --> 00:05:50,439 It's no, no, again, 111 00:05:50,939 --> 00:05:51,649 grants are fine. 112 00:05:51,679 --> 00:05:55,349 That is, that is why we still make the podcast for the five people who listen. 113 00:05:55,349 --> 00:05:59,499 So, you know, they, they listen to the rants and are like shaking their head 114 00:05:59,499 --> 00:06:04,479 or agreeing or one of the two we don't have continuing with the arc thread. 115 00:06:05,304 --> 00:06:09,344 Map Viewer Classic is going to be deprecated. 116 00:06:09,814 --> 00:06:14,134 If you are adding ArcGIS Online to your organization now, 117 00:06:14,474 --> 00:06:15,734 you don't have access to it. 118 00:06:16,174 --> 00:06:20,544 If you had an organization already that, of course, had Map Viewer 119 00:06:20,544 --> 00:06:25,794 Classic, you will be able to access Map Viewer Classic until Q1 of 2026. 120 00:06:25,814 --> 00:06:29,004 So you have about a year before you lose that. 121 00:06:29,014 --> 00:06:31,034 So it's either end of this year or early next year, depending 122 00:06:31,034 --> 00:06:32,924 on where their quarters fall. 123 00:06:32,924 --> 00:06:38,364 I've never really Payed attention to if they're in October or January company. 124 00:06:38,994 --> 00:06:40,414 So there you go. 125 00:06:40,704 --> 00:06:42,114 Other than having to redo a bunch of work. 126 00:06:42,684 --> 00:06:43,844 Does anyone care? 127 00:06:44,234 --> 00:06:46,914 I don't even know if you have to redo a bunch of work. 128 00:06:47,294 --> 00:06:50,744 Yeah, there were some things that wouldn't work that are like if you had older maps 129 00:06:50,744 --> 00:06:52,344 that had certain things going on in them. 130 00:06:52,834 --> 00:06:54,444 You'd have to open them in classic. 131 00:06:54,684 --> 00:06:57,124 And so if you're an organization that has stuff going back. 132 00:06:57,694 --> 00:06:58,594 A few years. 133 00:06:59,224 --> 00:07:01,014 I've had it happen once or twice, but. 134 00:07:01,704 --> 00:07:06,374 I mean, yes, for anybody new or just coming in, it's not a huge deal, 135 00:07:06,754 --> 00:07:09,674 but as always with legacy stuff that you have that you're still using. 136 00:07:10,639 --> 00:07:11,299 That's the main, 137 00:07:11,569 --> 00:07:14,799 it's just, I like the new one so much better than classic. 138 00:07:14,949 --> 00:07:18,279 I totally get, this was actually deprecated almost 139 00:07:18,279 --> 00:07:20,009 a year ago, quarter 2, 2023. 140 00:07:20,009 --> 00:07:24,329 It's just, this is by the way, we say deprecated and we all know because 141 00:07:24,719 --> 00:07:28,914 Esri's the, Esri users are the worst that I've ever experienced for Almost 142 00:07:28,914 --> 00:07:34,094 any software exception of maybe windows of I'm gonna ride or die. 143 00:07:34,894 --> 00:07:41,444 It's the very end of the earth before I get off of this, this tool set. 144 00:07:41,784 --> 00:07:45,014 And it's amazing to me how much people. 145 00:07:45,204 --> 00:07:48,744 Cling to that, particularly when you've got situations where it's 146 00:07:48,774 --> 00:07:52,174 clearly superior in this particular case, it's clearly superior. 147 00:07:52,174 --> 00:07:52,424 Just 148 00:07:52,444 --> 00:07:53,194 move. 149 00:07:53,414 --> 00:07:54,014 It's better. 150 00:07:54,234 --> 00:07:57,024 You know, my rant for the day, which isn't going to be a long rant by any 151 00:07:57,024 --> 00:08:01,814 means, is the people who are going to pay for the windows 10 continuing 152 00:08:01,824 --> 00:08:06,204 of life update thing that is going to be an option after october. 153 00:08:06,224 --> 00:08:08,125 And they're still sticking with 10. 154 00:08:08,125 --> 00:08:12,584 8. 2. And that's just like, why? 155 00:08:12,585 --> 00:08:12,657 Why? 156 00:08:12,657 --> 00:08:12,729 Why? 157 00:08:13,199 --> 00:08:14,259 I I do it. 158 00:08:14,499 --> 00:08:18,739 I do have a laptop sitting over there that is incapable of upgrading and I 159 00:08:18,739 --> 00:08:22,029 just don't want to spend the money To replace it because it does what it's 160 00:08:22,029 --> 00:08:26,709 supposed to do just fine But are you gonna pay for the i'm not gonna pay 161 00:08:26,709 --> 00:08:30,149 for because I really don't care It's I don't use that laptop that much and 162 00:08:30,169 --> 00:08:31,429 if someone hacks it, yeah, whatever. 163 00:08:31,689 --> 00:08:33,579 I don't care It doesn't really matter. 164 00:08:34,149 --> 00:08:35,459 I just format c colon if I have to 165 00:08:35,460 --> 00:08:40,189 it's about continuity and as much about workflow and stuff as it is about the 166 00:08:40,199 --> 00:08:44,464 tools like there's plenty of people that probably Want to upgrade to new tools, 167 00:08:44,484 --> 00:08:46,374 but there's they're stuck in a workflow. 168 00:08:47,044 --> 00:08:50,374 I, my only, my only point to that to sort of harmonize the two is that I 169 00:08:50,374 --> 00:08:53,435 understand the workflow argument, but it's not like to turn it off the next week. 170 00:08:53,454 --> 00:08:53,764 They go. 171 00:08:53,764 --> 00:08:56,004 It's over usually have like a year. 172 00:08:56,014 --> 00:08:58,034 I mean, you know, you have had years. 173 00:08:58,244 --> 00:08:58,614 Yeah. 174 00:08:59,074 --> 00:08:59,874 You've got time. 175 00:09:00,044 --> 00:09:01,084 Figure it out, man. 176 00:09:01,084 --> 00:09:02,054 I mean, it's not. 177 00:09:03,049 --> 00:09:03,869 No, I get that too. 178 00:09:03,869 --> 00:09:04,349 It's comfort. 179 00:09:04,929 --> 00:09:06,949 It's comfort that you have mastered. 180 00:09:07,249 --> 00:09:07,889 With that, 181 00:09:08,769 --> 00:09:14,289 we are going to say that with the move to ArcGIS Enterprise 11. 182 00:09:14,339 --> 00:09:17,009 5 I'm sorry, not with 11. 183 00:09:17,009 --> 00:09:17,580 5, but after 11. 184 00:09:17,580 --> 00:09:21,059 5, so you get to keep it through 11. 185 00:09:21,060 --> 00:09:25,239 5, but at 12, they are dropping multiple things. 186 00:09:25,439 --> 00:09:32,259 So MapViewer Classic, ArcGIS Configurable Apps, WebAppBuilder, these are the 187 00:09:32,269 --> 00:09:35,729 things that are going away in 12. 188 00:09:35,759 --> 00:09:38,809 So be prepared, 11. 189 00:09:38,810 --> 00:09:39,589 5, which is coming. 190 00:09:40,229 --> 00:09:43,779 In the summer will be kind of the last of that, but that is 191 00:09:43,779 --> 00:09:46,269 a long term support release. 192 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:48,539 There's some interesting things in here. 193 00:09:48,589 --> 00:09:50,810 That most of that's like, yeah, who cares? 194 00:09:50,839 --> 00:09:54,610 It's just again, you know, it's coming plan for it. 195 00:09:55,049 --> 00:09:58,390 I just wanted to say, but the one I do think that people need to 196 00:09:58,390 --> 00:10:05,650 pay attention to is the tile cash data store is evolving and that is 197 00:10:05,660 --> 00:10:08,370 almost always universally a epic. 198 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:13,890 Crap ton, if you pardon my French of data for most organizations, and you should 199 00:10:13,890 --> 00:10:16,060 really that one more than anything else. 200 00:10:16,060 --> 00:10:18,070 If you just want to go, I'm gonna blow it off to the last minute. 201 00:10:18,260 --> 00:10:22,520 It's not the end of the world, but that one is going to take time to migrate. 202 00:10:22,849 --> 00:10:24,649 So there is a migration tool. 203 00:10:24,649 --> 00:10:25,629 There is a migration path. 204 00:10:25,630 --> 00:10:28,250 I think it was a tool, but there's certainly a migration 205 00:10:28,340 --> 00:10:29,690 path that they've got for that. 206 00:10:29,690 --> 00:10:33,520 But you need to start thinking about that as you moved 11. 207 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,670 5 that 12 is going to change that tile store significantly. 208 00:10:37,020 --> 00:10:39,890 And I wanted to counter some of the rants with something small, but that 209 00:10:39,890 --> 00:10:44,370 I'm highly appreciative of is the use of the timeline infographics. 210 00:10:44,380 --> 00:10:48,880 They've started putting in because it really does help explain to 211 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:53,689 people that you're working with here is the reality of what's happening 212 00:10:53,700 --> 00:10:57,370 and how we can fit this into, you know, what we have to do day by day. 213 00:10:57,990 --> 00:11:00,480 So that's something that has been. 214 00:11:01,215 --> 00:11:05,295 Showing up more and more with these types of reports, and I appreciate 215 00:11:05,295 --> 00:11:06,355 that they're doing it that way. 216 00:11:06,505 --> 00:11:06,925 Okay. 217 00:11:06,925 --> 00:11:10,835 Well, in more new software news or software update news 218 00:11:10,875 --> 00:11:13,925 sketch up 2025 is coming out. 219 00:11:13,925 --> 00:11:17,605 I don't know if it's available yet, but it's coming out and I think there's. 220 00:11:18,030 --> 00:11:19,800 There's a number of new things going on here. 221 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:25,230 So I'm a longtime Sketchup user, but I think I'm still running on 2023 But for 222 00:11:25,230 --> 00:11:30,340 this release, I think the the focus on new visualization, especially in terms 223 00:11:30,340 --> 00:11:35,809 of photorealistic Materials like textures and stuff is pretty cool And I think 224 00:11:35,860 --> 00:11:38,100 I will actually be looking to upgrade. 225 00:11:38,100 --> 00:11:42,780 I mean, there's some other interesting things coming along but for me that's 226 00:11:42,780 --> 00:11:47,430 probably the big one because that has been a struggle and And so when you say photo 227 00:11:47,430 --> 00:11:51,250 realistic materials, and there's other other programs that have done better with 228 00:11:51,250 --> 00:11:56,190 that earlier, and increasingly that's something people people want to see. 229 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,550 So, I'm kind of excited to check that out for sure. 230 00:12:01,130 --> 00:12:03,509 And they're increasing their interoperability with, I don't know if 231 00:12:03,509 --> 00:12:09,420 it's Revit or Revit, but the architecture software, which is good, especially 232 00:12:09,420 --> 00:12:15,010 for some of the photo realism, but also increasing perceived depth and realism. 233 00:12:15,365 --> 00:12:19,625 Finally in the news, with another piece of software, Windows is 234 00:12:19,625 --> 00:12:24,975 finally killing off its API for location history in Windows 11. 235 00:12:25,505 --> 00:12:31,344 This was a Cortana extension, and so since Cortana's been gone for a while, it's 236 00:12:31,344 --> 00:12:33,995 kind of curious that they've left this in. 237 00:12:34,725 --> 00:12:38,560 And so They're finally deprecating that. 238 00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:41,990 And of course we've seen Google go through and do this recently. 239 00:12:42,020 --> 00:12:47,639 Apple has been storing theirs locally as opposed to online anyway. 240 00:12:48,079 --> 00:12:52,229 And so I think it's just kind of a realization that if you take 241 00:12:52,230 --> 00:12:57,459 it away from the online services and if it's not necessary, even 242 00:12:57,649 --> 00:13:00,029 the hardware services that. 243 00:13:00,774 --> 00:13:02,364 People can't ask you for that data. 244 00:13:02,684 --> 00:13:06,684 So I think, you know, we continue to see that kind of movement. 245 00:13:07,014 --> 00:13:10,414 But yeah, this is one of those weird one that's just kind of there, 246 00:13:10,414 --> 00:13:12,974 but not maybe being used a lot. 247 00:13:13,414 --> 00:13:17,224 They're also, and by the way, I am one of the maybe six people. 248 00:13:18,284 --> 00:13:19,624 Who actually liked Cortana. 249 00:13:20,624 --> 00:13:21,514 I like the Cortana. 250 00:13:21,514 --> 00:13:24,244 I mean, you can change the voice, but I like the Cortana voice and I actually 251 00:13:24,244 --> 00:13:29,384 did use it and I had as the people who may remember passing the pot. 252 00:13:29,404 --> 00:13:33,204 I had a windows phone and I actually use Cortana and that and I, I was sad to see 253 00:13:33,204 --> 00:13:35,254 it go, but that's not the here nor there. 254 00:13:35,484 --> 00:13:38,704 But the other thing is I guess word pads out now as well. 255 00:13:38,984 --> 00:13:43,864 And I guess who, who used that, but I did on occasion actually use word pad. 256 00:13:44,634 --> 00:13:45,744 I can't say that I ever. 257 00:13:45,744 --> 00:13:45,784 Yeah. 258 00:13:46,429 --> 00:13:48,489 Voluntarily use wordpad, but you know, 259 00:13:48,839 --> 00:13:49,839 there was like specifics. 260 00:13:49,869 --> 00:13:52,819 I mean, I use notepad a fair bit, but there were a couple of situations 261 00:13:52,819 --> 00:13:53,949 where I actually did use it. 262 00:13:53,949 --> 00:13:56,529 So it's like, oh, hey, wordpad and it's gone 263 00:13:59,029 --> 00:14:00,029 and that's it for the news 264 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:02,869 and in a web corner, the Norman B. 265 00:14:02,879 --> 00:14:07,569 Leventhal map and education center at the Boston public library is hosting. 266 00:14:07,569 --> 00:14:08,639 It's in our world. 267 00:14:08,649 --> 00:14:14,039 David J. Weaver GIS research fellow in which you the. 268 00:14:14,619 --> 00:14:20,379 The fellowship will allow any recipients to explore their archive of early maps, 269 00:14:21,169 --> 00:14:24,999 and also their physical collection on the history of computer cartography. 270 00:14:25,449 --> 00:14:30,099 So, if you are someone that works with GIS history, cartography, urban 271 00:14:30,099 --> 00:14:33,579 planning, remote sensing, or anything where you've been wanting to do 272 00:14:33,579 --> 00:14:37,729 something on the history of GIS, then this might be the fellowship for you. 273 00:14:37,979 --> 00:14:40,039 It's pretty cool that we're at the point where we're doing 274 00:14:40,049 --> 00:14:41,179 things about our history. 275 00:14:41,379 --> 00:14:43,109 Yeah, I think there should be more of it. 276 00:14:44,199 --> 00:14:48,089 I was trying to explain the other day to to my digital cartography 277 00:14:48,089 --> 00:14:51,479 class actually about the way symbols used to look and things like that. 278 00:14:51,569 --> 00:14:54,749 And just even though it doesn't seem like it's a huge difference, I showed 279 00:14:54,749 --> 00:14:58,819 them old maps, but I'm like, yeah, but it kind of is in the digital world. 280 00:14:59,779 --> 00:15:04,919 Well, I mean, we're, we're approaching 70 years from the initial Roger Tomlinson. 281 00:15:06,204 --> 00:15:06,924 Canadian map. 282 00:15:07,324 --> 00:15:07,854 Let's see. 283 00:15:07,854 --> 00:15:13,724 So this week, Dr. Bergeron suggested the topic of cartography and one that 284 00:15:13,724 --> 00:15:18,274 we've not talked about in a while because she stopped at something cartography. 285 00:15:18,644 --> 00:15:20,954 The one that we haven't talked about in a while, kind of actually touches a little 286 00:15:20,954 --> 00:15:26,069 bit with a sketch up conversation and that is As we're moving more and more 287 00:15:26,079 --> 00:15:29,849 from traditional flat 2D maps back into 2. 288 00:15:29,849 --> 00:15:37,329 5D, 3D representations and the question of, well, two questions, one, you know, 289 00:15:37,339 --> 00:15:44,489 this question of photorealism, Uncanny Valley versus using more traditional 290 00:15:44,499 --> 00:15:49,199 cartoonish or simplified representations and let's start with that one. 291 00:15:49,359 --> 00:15:52,064 I'll toss the other one in later if it fits. 292 00:15:52,464 --> 00:15:53,934 So lots about that. 293 00:15:54,224 --> 00:15:55,614 Well, I think so. 294 00:15:56,004 --> 00:15:58,534 Actually, lots of thoughts because a number of years ago, Bart, I 295 00:15:58,534 --> 00:16:00,344 can't remember how long ago we did. 296 00:16:00,394 --> 00:16:06,734 We did an article on 3D visualization for municipal kind of information, 297 00:16:06,734 --> 00:16:11,914 but looking at using 3D or two and a half D but just simple colors. 298 00:16:11,944 --> 00:16:16,254 So we looked at areas around Morgantown and it's sort of neighbor Star City 299 00:16:16,254 --> 00:16:20,374 and trying to show, for example, the days you collect your trash and land. 300 00:16:20,404 --> 00:16:23,924 I think it was zoning was the other one, but just using simple 301 00:16:24,005 --> 00:16:25,185 building footprint extrusion. 302 00:16:25,815 --> 00:16:28,725 So making it two and a half D. So almost 3D looking. 303 00:16:29,230 --> 00:16:30,630 But just using those colors, right? 304 00:16:30,630 --> 00:16:34,780 So looking at the situations where it doesn't need to be 305 00:16:34,780 --> 00:16:39,300 photorealistic to kind of still give a more enhanced view of something. 306 00:16:39,659 --> 00:16:45,270 And so, and that goes back a number of years, but the photorealism as tools. 307 00:16:45,910 --> 00:16:49,610 Have improved so we talked not too long ago on the podcast however 308 00:16:49,610 --> 00:16:53,170 many months it's been about the the google photorealistic tiles 309 00:16:53,170 --> 00:16:58,260 photo photorealistic 3d tiles Some other tool sets they're coming. 310 00:16:58,359 --> 00:17:03,860 Online But when people see those they think oh the photorealism is the thing 311 00:17:03,870 --> 00:17:08,850 that I want but when you have enhanced information, right, which is the the 312 00:17:08,850 --> 00:17:12,220 mission of cartography is to give us a visualization that is, that is 313 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,820 getting information knowledge out to somebody that hopefully will, will get 314 00:17:15,820 --> 00:17:17,920 it right is that's the question, right? 315 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:23,100 Does the photorealism enhance that or mask it a little and make it 316 00:17:23,100 --> 00:17:27,530 harder for the information to stand out that you're then adding to it? 317 00:17:27,790 --> 00:17:28,150 So. 318 00:17:28,535 --> 00:17:33,815 I'm pretty strongly on team abstraction, abstraction. 319 00:17:33,815 --> 00:17:34,915 Sorry, try English again. 320 00:17:35,615 --> 00:17:41,044 I find photo realism to be, I think it gets as really hard as the 321 00:17:41,045 --> 00:17:49,295 uncanny valley because people tend to start getting hyper focused on 322 00:17:50,405 --> 00:17:54,005 the accuracy of what they're seeing based upon their personal knowledge. 323 00:17:54,045 --> 00:17:55,365 Oh, that store is not open anymore. 324 00:17:55,375 --> 00:17:57,595 Or that that's weird that they have. 325 00:17:58,090 --> 00:18:01,750 Potatoes on sale for that much money or, you know, whatever little piece of 326 00:18:01,750 --> 00:18:07,110 information that is completely irrelevant to what you're actually trying to get 327 00:18:07,110 --> 00:18:11,430 them to show, they get really hyper focused on it and it gets I know that's 328 00:18:11,430 --> 00:18:15,610 an unusual use of the term uncanny valley, but I think what it does is it 329 00:18:15,610 --> 00:18:21,480 very much distracts them from focusing on what you're trying to communicate and 330 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,670 to that extent, I think that it's, yeah. 331 00:18:24,255 --> 00:18:28,965 Almost always better to start from abstraction and work your way towards 332 00:18:28,995 --> 00:18:32,845 realism as opposed to start with realism and work your way towards abstraction 333 00:18:33,634 --> 00:18:35,765 in almost every cartographic situation. 334 00:18:35,765 --> 00:18:38,725 I have, I've struggled to find any that I thought, well, I should start with photo 335 00:18:38,735 --> 00:18:44,313 realism and work our way back except for the clear cut exemption of aerial imagery. 336 00:18:44,313 --> 00:18:48,910 Aerial imagery is the 1 place where I think that it does sometimes enhance 337 00:18:48,910 --> 00:18:53,110 and help things when augmented with abstraction take, for example. 338 00:18:53,795 --> 00:18:54,565 Property lines. 339 00:18:54,845 --> 00:18:58,125 If I show you a bunch of property lines with absolutely no imagery behind it, 340 00:18:58,135 --> 00:19:01,375 most people go, I don't know, it's a bunch of usually yellow lines on a map. 341 00:19:01,385 --> 00:19:01,975 Who cares? 342 00:19:02,025 --> 00:19:03,885 But if you put the imagery there, you go, Oh, I see. 343 00:19:03,895 --> 00:19:05,115 That's where my house is. 344 00:19:05,145 --> 00:19:06,385 And that's where my neighbor's house is. 345 00:19:06,385 --> 00:19:09,225 And I understand that's where the line is and that sort of thing. 346 00:19:09,485 --> 00:19:13,495 That's the one area that I find that is critical to have. 347 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,180 Realism and even then you trip into that. 348 00:19:16,180 --> 00:19:19,610 Well, I didn't build that garage, you know that garage doesn't exist anymore I 349 00:19:19,610 --> 00:19:22,270 was tore down a a year ago or whatever. 350 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:23,610 That's always a bit of a pain. 351 00:19:23,860 --> 00:19:28,290 So so kind of what what you're saying is that Among other things is that the 352 00:19:28,290 --> 00:19:32,650 snapshotting right that we always do in data capture with cartography becomes 353 00:19:33,060 --> 00:19:36,290 a hindrance when you're talking like the closer you get to photo realism, 354 00:19:36,300 --> 00:19:41,620 right because There's maybe a dynamism like a dynamic nature that people 355 00:19:41,620 --> 00:19:45,560 are inferring that's not there in the sense that oh, it should be always up 356 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:47,700 to date if it looks that real, right? 357 00:19:47,710 --> 00:19:48,770 So that's kind of what you're saying. 358 00:19:49,140 --> 00:19:50,960 I think that's one dimension to what I'm saying. 359 00:19:51,020 --> 00:19:53,880 I think that there's also even if it's even I'll go and take 360 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:55,890 the picture right now and then come in and go, here's your map. 361 00:19:56,350 --> 00:19:58,400 I still think people get a little bit. 362 00:19:58,685 --> 00:20:05,395 Too much in the weeds on the, the realism and get a little lost focusing on that. 363 00:20:05,505 --> 00:20:09,495 I didn't really realize that was what that color yellow or whatever dumb 364 00:20:09,535 --> 00:20:11,655 thing that doesn't really matter. 365 00:20:12,025 --> 00:20:15,885 And it detracts from what you're trying to do is to show them an evacuation 366 00:20:15,885 --> 00:20:18,875 route or show them, these are the water lines or, you know, whatever it is you 367 00:20:18,875 --> 00:20:25,755 may be trying to depict in your actual map that is, is I find it almost. 368 00:20:26,725 --> 00:20:30,225 Not universally that as I said, there's one clear example where that's not true, 369 00:20:30,225 --> 00:20:34,775 but it's very often if not the majority of the overwhelming majority of the 370 00:20:34,775 --> 00:20:36,655 time, a distraction rather than help. 371 00:20:42,815 --> 00:20:44,785 No, I thought Barb had something to say before, but she didn't. 372 00:20:44,785 --> 00:20:45,085 Okay. 373 00:20:45,585 --> 00:20:50,245 So as we look at this, then you know, we, we are talking about 374 00:20:50,245 --> 00:20:51,725 abstraction and simplification. 375 00:20:52,155 --> 00:20:52,955 So these are our, Okay. 376 00:20:53,570 --> 00:20:56,390 Are primitives, but the primitives don't have to be completely primitive. 377 00:20:56,390 --> 00:20:59,420 It can be a representation of, say, a fire hydrant. 378 00:20:59,420 --> 00:21:02,300 It doesn't have to be a little circle or a little box. 379 00:21:02,300 --> 00:21:07,090 It just, we don't want it to be photorealistic because like Frank is 380 00:21:07,090 --> 00:21:12,580 saying, you know, if you put in quote unquote photorealistic fire hydrants 381 00:21:13,030 --> 00:21:18,030 and you're in an area that has red fire hydrants with white, connection points. 382 00:21:18,070 --> 00:21:18,840 I just forgot what they're called. 383 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:19,370 Accents. 384 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:20,560 Yeah, accents. 385 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:20,860 That's good. 386 00:21:21,430 --> 00:21:24,120 Versus the yellow and green that you might see somewhere else. 387 00:21:24,410 --> 00:21:27,320 You're going to have somebody who's, you know, there's a 388 00:21:27,330 --> 00:21:28,470 cognitive dissonance there. 389 00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:33,960 So whenever we look at these, it doesn't have to be a completely 390 00:21:34,540 --> 00:21:37,740 Simplified, completely simplified idea of representation, but just 391 00:21:37,740 --> 00:21:40,260 something that's not meant to be. 392 00:21:40,620 --> 00:21:42,150 This is what you would see here. 393 00:21:42,490 --> 00:21:46,030 So, yeah, I think that's what we're kind of getting to. 394 00:21:47,090 --> 00:21:48,150 I don't know what I'm saying anymore 395 00:21:48,790 --> 00:21:49,690 and when we can. 396 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:52,420 Yeah, I was thinking back to that project. 397 00:21:52,470 --> 00:21:56,360 I think that all the advances we've had have made it so that you can 398 00:21:56,360 --> 00:22:02,100 do abstraction in a very elegant and simplified way that just looks 399 00:22:02,410 --> 00:22:06,640 and gives you a feel that's so much different than it was back then. 400 00:22:06,950 --> 00:22:09,720 So, even though you would think you wanted. 401 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:11,980 Something simplified means it's, it's older. 402 00:22:11,980 --> 00:22:15,210 It's not as you know, techie or understood. 403 00:22:15,570 --> 00:22:18,510 Actually, when you're looking, I think about all the advances in the, like, what 404 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,790 lighting looks like or represented as that you see people doing now in a lot 405 00:22:22,790 --> 00:22:27,060 of cartography, whether it's lights at night in a city or, you know, lights on 406 00:22:27,070 --> 00:22:30,160 lighthouses or lights on, on ships at sea. 407 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,710 It's, it's just amazing what you can do. 408 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,360 And it's not photorealistic, but it gives you that, that feeling. 409 00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:37,350 So you understand it. 410 00:22:37,825 --> 00:22:42,045 I think this gets at, this is really great for me because I, what I have to 411 00:22:42,055 --> 00:22:47,315 do tomorrow is prepare my lesson on on for, for my digital technology course, 412 00:22:47,345 --> 00:22:50,155 it's on symbology and visual hierarchy. 413 00:22:50,455 --> 00:22:52,575 So some of the thoughts that are kicking around in my head, my own 414 00:22:52,575 --> 00:22:53,545 credit, I need to write this down. 415 00:22:53,545 --> 00:22:59,125 So I make sure I cover it in the lecture, but the, I think symbology 416 00:22:59,125 --> 00:23:03,485 becomes critical in this particular context, because I think that. 417 00:23:04,130 --> 00:23:06,950 Legends get klugy after a certain point. 418 00:23:07,070 --> 00:23:13,750 Like if you have 10 things in a legend box, I just, to pick a number, I think 419 00:23:13,750 --> 00:23:15,160 people go, okay, I can follow that. 420 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,230 When you have like 37, they're, that's just too many things. 421 00:23:17,230 --> 00:23:18,220 I'm just not gonna look that up. 422 00:23:18,220 --> 00:23:19,570 It's just not worth my energy. 423 00:23:19,570 --> 00:23:24,160 So a lot of this is, you know, the sim, the symbolism of showing. 424 00:23:24,390 --> 00:23:26,820 The example that Jesse gave a fire hydrant, you know, something that 425 00:23:26,820 --> 00:23:30,720 looks very fire hydrant, E, even though it may not, in fact, be a 426 00:23:30,790 --> 00:23:35,568 true representation of fire hydrants within the landscape as we would 427 00:23:35,568 --> 00:23:37,605 experience them can be very powerful. 428 00:23:37,605 --> 00:23:38,964 It's an abstraction, right? 429 00:23:38,964 --> 00:23:43,650 But it also has to be a pseudo realistic abstraction at some level. 430 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:45,230 And this is kind of where. 431 00:23:45,550 --> 00:23:51,300 I think maps interact with, this is an older term, but skeuomorphism that was 432 00:23:51,300 --> 00:23:56,160 used in, in user interface design, the question of, should something look like 433 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,110 the thing that it is, or should it be sort of a very vague abstraction or almost 434 00:24:00,110 --> 00:24:02,380 artistic representation of what it is? 435 00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:07,360 The very classic examples you can think of skeuomorphic icons are the little. 436 00:24:07,645 --> 00:24:11,195 You know, save icon that's on most applications and the little printer 437 00:24:11,195 --> 00:24:12,505 icon is on most applications. 438 00:24:12,895 --> 00:24:15,905 The thing that's interesting about maps is we have to walk that line. 439 00:24:16,055 --> 00:24:21,115 I don't think we have the latitude as cartographers to completely 440 00:24:21,115 --> 00:24:22,265 get rid of skeuomorphism. 441 00:24:22,275 --> 00:24:24,685 Just we're just not going to deal with that because it would end up 442 00:24:24,695 --> 00:24:28,965 having to train everyone with a new set of symbology that they're just. 443 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,670 Don't have, I don't think they have the buy in to bother to learn it. 444 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:39,350 And I think that if we start making new sorts of symbology that people aren't 445 00:24:39,350 --> 00:24:42,740 going to gravitate towards, then it's going to be a challenge for them to go. 446 00:24:42,740 --> 00:24:47,370 I'm going to go look up the, in the index of legend of what this particular 447 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:53,260 shade of red dot means versus this other particular shade of fuzzy red dot. 448 00:24:53,590 --> 00:24:55,840 It's just not viable. 449 00:24:55,850 --> 00:24:57,680 So we do actually have to walk that. 450 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,790 Pseudo realistic line, quite a bit. 451 00:25:01,140 --> 00:25:02,450 Well, I think something that's interesting. 452 00:25:02,450 --> 00:25:07,435 So I mean I work in a very niche area, right which is Immersive environments, 453 00:25:07,435 --> 00:25:11,495 but as i've gotten to think about the conversation here you know, we're talking 454 00:25:11,495 --> 00:25:15,365 about Not just the the map itself, right? 455 00:25:15,365 --> 00:25:20,145 But the the symbology which is the key Key way that information is conveyed 456 00:25:20,145 --> 00:25:24,585 like this is what the map is showing you Is that we traditionally have done that 457 00:25:24,605 --> 00:25:28,865 in a legend right a little key that's on the map and as we've transitioned 458 00:25:28,875 --> 00:25:35,285 to more interactive maps and, you know, kind of the web interface and dynamic 459 00:25:35,335 --> 00:25:39,295 we've had to figure out, well, you know, that's not working the same way. 460 00:25:39,295 --> 00:25:43,235 So we have different solutions for how we do that. 461 00:25:43,235 --> 00:25:47,175 So the symbology, the legend becomes part of kind of the left hand side. 462 00:25:47,175 --> 00:25:50,665 If you're looking at, you know, standard maps or it's just you figure it out 463 00:25:50,665 --> 00:25:55,605 kind of thing, but in the 3D immersive environment I've started to, and others, 464 00:25:55,605 --> 00:26:00,215 I've started to explore the fact that your legend isn't so much a listing 465 00:26:00,225 --> 00:26:05,395 as it were, but simply an encounter and you get Some piece of information 466 00:26:05,395 --> 00:26:09,425 that says this is what this is and you kind of file it away or you can go and 467 00:26:09,425 --> 00:26:13,915 look at it another screen and it's kind of an interesting difference, right? 468 00:26:13,915 --> 00:26:17,675 It's not a it's not a list that you consult, but it's an encounter. 469 00:26:17,675 --> 00:26:18,945 And then you might have a HUD. 470 00:26:18,955 --> 00:26:22,015 So that's a heads up display in your in your user interface. 471 00:26:22,460 --> 00:26:27,120 That might tell you what that is or add to that and so I think that that's 472 00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:30,520 an interesting complication because if you're going to work towards photo 473 00:26:30,530 --> 00:26:33,920 realism and sometimes you're working on projects where the people want that 474 00:26:34,450 --> 00:26:37,830 and you know, you say, hey, this might be a way to work on this, but it is 475 00:26:37,830 --> 00:26:40,110 to look at the sort of grammar, right? 476 00:26:40,110 --> 00:26:42,940 The visual grammar that helps us understand maps. 477 00:26:43,285 --> 00:26:46,975 Has to evolve when you're, you know, using that kind of environment. 478 00:26:47,245 --> 00:26:53,405 And I think, first the term map here is somewhat problematic because 479 00:26:53,405 --> 00:26:55,695 we're talking about landscapes, we're talking about environments. 480 00:26:56,140 --> 00:26:58,580 And whether we want to call it environmental landscape or just 481 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:04,430 a computer lens or sorry a 3D environment that's kind of up to each 482 00:27:04,430 --> 00:27:05,770 person as they're talking about it. 483 00:27:05,770 --> 00:27:13,790 But calling it a map isn't wrong because it is cartography, but it is somewhat 484 00:27:13,790 --> 00:27:18,690 problematic because it pushes us into these kind of traditional ideas of 485 00:27:18,740 --> 00:27:24,230 Cartographic symbolism and legends and the 7 pieces of flair that you need to have 486 00:27:24,230 --> 00:27:26,130 on every map and those type of things. 487 00:27:26,670 --> 00:27:30,440 And I think jumping back to what both of you were talking about with the legend. 488 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,120 Kind of building on what Sue was saying, you know, there is no legend in 489 00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:35,880 these 3D environments a lot of times. 490 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:40,420 And, you know, it's not like we have a map series like the USGS quadrangles where we 491 00:27:40,420 --> 00:27:43,080 have a whole separate document that is. 492 00:27:43,750 --> 00:27:48,040 The legend for those maps, but instead it's the experience, right? 493 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,750 It's back to that landscape and environment idea that 494 00:27:51,750 --> 00:27:53,060 you're experiencing things. 495 00:27:53,060 --> 00:27:57,190 And that is how you know what they are not because you've been shown. 496 00:27:57,210 --> 00:28:02,430 So it has to be like Frank was saying, it has to be at least representative of 497 00:28:02,430 --> 00:28:08,090 what the thing is, whether it's through skew morphism or photo realism to have 498 00:28:08,090 --> 00:28:12,480 the user be able to understand what they're interacting with and maybe how 499 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:13,720 they might need to interact with it. 500 00:28:13,860 --> 00:28:17,250 3D cartography is always a bit of a nightmare because we 501 00:28:17,260 --> 00:28:18,640 haven't built that language yet. 502 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,360 I mean, if you show me a 2D map and there's a star on it and 503 00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:26,320 with a place name, I'm going to guess that's probably a capital. 504 00:28:26,490 --> 00:28:28,450 I'm just going to guess that's probably true. 505 00:28:28,890 --> 00:28:32,950 If you show me a map with a black circle with a red dot in the middle, 506 00:28:32,950 --> 00:28:35,470 I'm also going to guess that's a capital, especially if there's other 507 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,460 black circles with place names on them. 508 00:28:37,890 --> 00:28:41,500 I can kind of infer that because we've taught through. 509 00:28:41,935 --> 00:28:45,695 The development of the symbology and a language for that symbology. 510 00:28:45,705 --> 00:28:47,375 Some things make certain sense. 511 00:28:48,165 --> 00:28:51,315 If I see a blue line, that's probably going to be water. 512 00:28:52,035 --> 00:28:52,375 Good. 513 00:28:52,445 --> 00:28:55,475 If it's supposed to represent a landscape, that's a good guess that I 514 00:28:55,475 --> 00:28:57,205 can do off the, off the off the jump. 515 00:28:57,235 --> 00:29:00,445 And you can insert the joke from arrested development of where 516 00:29:00,495 --> 00:29:02,705 clearly all this blue part is land. 517 00:29:02,965 --> 00:29:05,465 If you haven't seen the episode, watch the start episode, you'll see it. 518 00:29:05,495 --> 00:29:06,795 It's a funny cartography joke. 519 00:29:07,170 --> 00:29:13,170 Those things are, are, have been built through literal centuries 520 00:29:13,220 --> 00:29:18,960 of developing a language and, and educating that as we move forward. 521 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:23,180 I mean, there's a skill of map reading and we tell people how to read maps, how 522 00:29:23,180 --> 00:29:27,210 you communicate scale, for example, is one of two things is I'm going to give 523 00:29:27,210 --> 00:29:31,760 you a ratio of some sort, one to 24, 000, and you know what that means because 524 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,510 you've been taught what that means. 525 00:29:33,510 --> 00:29:37,030 Or I'm going to stick a bar at the bottom that says one of those is. 526 00:29:37,300 --> 00:29:40,190 One of these, whether it be kilometers or miles or whatever the heck it may be 527 00:29:40,540 --> 00:29:44,470 I've got that to say, okay, I understand how to understand the scale of this 528 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,040 map when we work in the 3d realm. 529 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:48,450 It's just all that's gone. 530 00:29:48,510 --> 00:29:52,360 All we have really is realism because, oh, I know that. 531 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,520 What a tape I know that's a table because it looks like a table 532 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:56,690 and I've experienced a table. 533 00:29:56,970 --> 00:30:01,570 So that's a table I mean a physical not a table of numbers. 534 00:30:01,590 --> 00:30:06,720 I mean like a table we put the coffee on that That's the type of thing that 535 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,980 we have to work in but at the same time you have to have those abstractions You 536 00:30:10,980 --> 00:30:15,590 know, everyone's ever played a video game knows that the red bar is health, right? 537 00:30:15,870 --> 00:30:19,750 That's just The rule every that language has been developed, 538 00:30:19,790 --> 00:30:21,400 but what's the blue bar? 539 00:30:21,510 --> 00:30:23,190 Well, depends on the game, right? 540 00:30:23,190 --> 00:30:25,710 Could be mana, which allows you to do special things. 541 00:30:25,710 --> 00:30:26,830 Could be stamina. 542 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,430 It could be, you know, your experience. 543 00:30:29,460 --> 00:30:30,370 There's any number of things. 544 00:30:30,390 --> 00:30:32,710 We know the red one is we don't necessarily know what the blue one is. 545 00:30:33,390 --> 00:30:37,420 Those things are being built larger than the gaming community. 546 00:30:37,460 --> 00:30:39,910 Let's be honest, but they are being built, but. 547 00:30:40,150 --> 00:30:44,040 I think the challenging bit we have here is we don't have a really great mechanism 548 00:30:44,050 --> 00:30:49,070 for communication and education that we would with this is how you read a map. 549 00:30:49,670 --> 00:30:50,590 We don't have that. 550 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,960 This is how you read a 3D landscape because we 1 presume that it starts with 551 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,570 something that's intuitive to everybody who's ever walked around and saw things 552 00:31:00,260 --> 00:31:07,000 and 2 there's no easy way to train on that because it's not universal yet. 553 00:31:07,330 --> 00:31:09,660 Or maybe never will be, but it certainly isn't now. 554 00:31:09,900 --> 00:31:12,060 Yeah, I was thinking you know, while you were talking about 555 00:31:12,060 --> 00:31:13,160 that, I mean, I totally agree too. 556 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,030 And I was thinking that when we have tried to kind of meld the 557 00:31:16,030 --> 00:31:19,500 two I was thinking about, and I don't, I don't use them anymore. 558 00:31:19,500 --> 00:31:23,240 I dabbled with them the AR apps where people tried to give you this, this 559 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,870 sort of 3d view of your surroundings and show you where things were. 560 00:31:27,325 --> 00:31:30,135 I was thinking city lens and and this is going back years, right 561 00:31:30,135 --> 00:31:33,185 was one of those apps but but they really struggled with that, right? 562 00:31:33,205 --> 00:31:38,205 Not well, I mean, I thought in my using of it It was a struggle in the sense that 563 00:31:38,435 --> 00:31:44,545 there was no sense of scale you could look and yes on the Symbols for each of 564 00:31:44,545 --> 00:31:49,025 the the things you could read I think that they did have distance on them but 565 00:31:49,025 --> 00:31:52,365 they all just popped up right because your phone is still the two dimensions 566 00:31:52,365 --> 00:31:57,470 trying to show three dimensions and it just It was that melding of traditional 567 00:31:57,530 --> 00:32:00,490 cartographic kind of labeling or traditional web label, whatever it is 568 00:32:00,530 --> 00:32:06,360 with kind of the 3D world that you could see through the through the phone lens. 569 00:32:06,390 --> 00:32:09,720 And so, and, and again, that was just one example from, from years 570 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,270 ago, but it, but it is not a new struggle, right, to try to figure out. 571 00:32:13,810 --> 00:32:19,390 How we can blend some of the things that symbols are really good at Which is again 572 00:32:19,390 --> 00:32:22,910 enhancing information about the world around you so you don't have to figure 573 00:32:22,910 --> 00:32:28,730 it all out yourself but also when the goal is to to have that experience is to 574 00:32:28,730 --> 00:32:33,860 how not to make that so difficult that it detracts from the experience that 575 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,890 You spent the work doing the dynamic photorealism or whatever to to get 576 00:32:39,340 --> 00:32:40,220 and just to kick it over. 577 00:32:40,220 --> 00:32:42,990 Geospatial crater is an example to go and look at where we 578 00:32:42,990 --> 00:32:45,120 are now in that that space. 579 00:32:45,300 --> 00:32:49,200 So I know people are insanely curious because I am what's question to, 580 00:32:49,530 --> 00:32:53,130 And it kind of like kind of actually kicks into a very small bit. 581 00:32:53,130 --> 00:32:55,570 Google's geospatial crater and. 582 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,630 It's really more the, the scanning. 583 00:32:58,630 --> 00:33:03,220 So we're, we're seeing a lot more terrestrial LIDAR, a lot more structure 584 00:33:03,220 --> 00:33:05,100 from motion being used to create. 585 00:33:05,750 --> 00:33:10,970 The 3D models, you can grab an app on your phone and scan your whole 586 00:33:10,980 --> 00:33:12,640 house and get a 3D version of it. 587 00:33:12,650 --> 00:33:19,050 You can, you know, go out and scan a fire hydrant that you can put into a game. 588 00:33:19,050 --> 00:33:22,600 You can I mean, there's so many tools now to be able to capture 589 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,260 these photorealistic aspects. 590 00:33:25,850 --> 00:33:32,450 But just as important as the texture of that object is the model, the 3D 591 00:33:32,660 --> 00:33:37,720 point cloud, 3D mesh, whether it's a 10, whether it's a traditional gaming mesh, 592 00:33:37,740 --> 00:33:39,670 whatever you're, you're talking about. 593 00:33:40,110 --> 00:33:45,380 So it's the question then of how much of that should we be looking at as the 594 00:33:45,380 --> 00:33:47,250 geospatial industry of course, that. 595 00:33:47,530 --> 00:33:51,680 That really takes us a lot of times into that need to move more 596 00:33:51,710 --> 00:33:55,020 into the game engine environment. 597 00:33:55,620 --> 00:33:59,890 But there is, you know, you can bring in OBJ and FBX files, I think 598 00:33:59,890 --> 00:34:04,710 into, you know, a lot of the 3D mapping applications currently. 599 00:34:05,340 --> 00:34:08,660 So it's not like we can't just bring those models in. 600 00:34:09,030 --> 00:34:10,910 It's just, are they the best place? 601 00:34:10,910 --> 00:34:13,180 Is it something that we should be looking at? 602 00:34:13,210 --> 00:34:14,910 Or is that getting too much? 603 00:34:15,900 --> 00:34:21,020 Detailed for the geography of the map, as opposed to the geography 604 00:34:21,060 --> 00:34:25,230 of the environment landscape, that is kind of a separation there. 605 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:26,900 Yeah, that's a really interesting question. 606 00:34:26,970 --> 00:34:31,530 And I was just thinking of, so when we talk about meshes or tens or any of those 607 00:34:31,530 --> 00:34:37,490 things, they're, they're not, they're not perfect representations, but they're. 608 00:34:39,305 --> 00:34:42,325 Increasingly at a density. 609 00:34:42,405 --> 00:34:44,445 That's the word I want to look for that. 610 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,780 The differences are relatively unimportant, like, so, you know, 611 00:34:48,790 --> 00:34:52,090 your, your, your roof line doesn't go on a straight line, but when you 612 00:34:52,090 --> 00:34:54,020 go down and look at it, you go, it looks kind of like a straight line, 613 00:34:54,420 --> 00:34:55,680 looks pretty close to a straight line. 614 00:34:56,030 --> 00:34:59,130 And in fact, with your gutters over top of it, they probably would go 615 00:34:59,130 --> 00:35:00,410 on pretty much a straight line. 616 00:35:00,410 --> 00:35:02,830 And so therefore it looks a lot more straight line. 617 00:35:03,370 --> 00:35:06,970 Because the gutters obscure the fact that your shingles don't 100 percent line up 618 00:35:06,970 --> 00:35:11,110 and, you know, a branch fell on it, bent 1, all that sort of stuff like that. 619 00:35:11,465 --> 00:35:14,515 And it does leave the question of, do I care in my 3D models? 620 00:35:14,555 --> 00:35:15,445 Does it matter? 621 00:35:15,785 --> 00:35:19,265 And I was thinking of I can't remember what, what they're called, but the shells 622 00:35:19,265 --> 00:35:22,085 that you learn in calculus, if you're taking calculus, one of the methods that 623 00:35:22,085 --> 00:35:24,835 you learn how to find the area in our curve is they use these shells, which 624 00:35:24,855 --> 00:35:26,675 basically draw a bunch of rectangles and. 625 00:35:27,045 --> 00:35:28,825 Add up the volume of all the rectangles. 626 00:35:28,825 --> 00:35:32,615 And that gives you an approximation of the volume underneath a curve. 627 00:35:32,985 --> 00:35:35,355 That's a limiting factor because you always have a bit of error because 628 00:35:35,355 --> 00:35:37,165 you can't perfectly do the curve. 629 00:35:37,195 --> 00:35:39,155 And only thing you do is make more and more rectangles. 630 00:35:39,705 --> 00:35:41,425 At some point it's sort of lost. 631 00:35:41,545 --> 00:35:43,465 You just, you're not gaining anything really. 632 00:35:43,465 --> 00:35:47,339 You have to go jump to another method, which is, you know, how we learned 633 00:35:47,339 --> 00:35:49,935 about integrals and derivatives and that sort of thing, but that's calculus. 634 00:35:50,865 --> 00:35:55,595 I think a similar thing happens with, with this stuff is that we have to balance out. 635 00:35:55,950 --> 00:35:58,640 I have to figure out how to balance out what our advisor would have 636 00:35:58,660 --> 00:36:03,680 called courses for courses which is what's the scale that's useful for 637 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:05,080 what you're trying to communicate. 638 00:36:05,220 --> 00:36:08,290 I really like the sugar pills, to be honest with you, that, you know, 639 00:36:08,310 --> 00:36:13,060 basically use a basic rectangle with very little details as a way to communicate 640 00:36:13,060 --> 00:36:16,970 the landscape without actually getting into the nuances of what that roof 641 00:36:16,970 --> 00:36:18,480 line doesn't quite follow that pitch. 642 00:36:18,750 --> 00:36:21,130 I think that's very powerful and very useful, and it's 643 00:36:21,130 --> 00:36:22,810 also a lot easier to develop. 644 00:36:23,065 --> 00:36:25,165 As long as you have building heights, you can kind of just 645 00:36:25,175 --> 00:36:29,615 do it with footprints, but, you know, I can see where particularly 646 00:36:29,615 --> 00:36:31,535 for 3D representations, not 2. 647 00:36:31,535 --> 00:36:34,935 5D, but 3D representations, that's just inadequate. 648 00:36:35,255 --> 00:36:38,885 Let's say some of the, when I think about this, I think about in recent 649 00:36:38,885 --> 00:36:43,275 years, the really cool work being done for verticalness for things like. 650 00:36:43,775 --> 00:36:49,845 For verticalness for objects like climbing paths on mountains that are being done 651 00:36:49,855 --> 00:36:54,695 and a lot of the time using new ways of doing drone paths in order to get that. 652 00:36:55,025 --> 00:37:00,565 And so I, I can see that being really useful and in that middle 653 00:37:00,565 --> 00:37:07,605 area between the, the photorealistic and the abstract for a specific 654 00:37:07,605 --> 00:37:09,235 purpose or a specialized purpose. 655 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,900 And I think, and I think, too, this is a much larger question than what we're 656 00:37:12,900 --> 00:37:16,710 going to talk about a few minutes here, too, is to go back to what we were some 657 00:37:16,710 --> 00:37:20,970 of the things we were talking about early on, right, is the amount of detail as we 658 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:26,790 see more and more two and a half and 3D represent, 3D representations sometimes 659 00:37:26,790 --> 00:37:31,230 the amount of detail might suggest to users the amount of legitimacy, too. 660 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,390 And as they get more used to seeing things, then they are going to, as you, 661 00:37:35,390 --> 00:37:38,080 as you had said before, Frank, kind of get distracted with wait a minute. 662 00:37:39,375 --> 00:37:41,475 Yeah, that side of my house doesn't have a gutter. 663 00:37:41,555 --> 00:37:42,855 Why is there a gutter on this model? 664 00:37:42,855 --> 00:37:43,055 Right. 665 00:37:43,055 --> 00:37:43,705 Or some such. 666 00:37:44,155 --> 00:37:44,455 So. 667 00:37:45,100 --> 00:37:49,690 We we run into a situation where we make decisions just as we do I think the 668 00:37:49,690 --> 00:37:54,350 biggest shocker in teaching cartography is the concept of generalization, right? 669 00:37:54,620 --> 00:37:59,790 That cartographers make active decisions on symbols to remove detail When it 670 00:37:59,790 --> 00:38:01,290 is necessary at certain scales, right? 671 00:38:01,290 --> 00:38:07,520 So The fact that all of it has to be a process of choosing the 672 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,760 right The right horse for the right course, right, in terms of scale. 673 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:16,430 And I think it's a huge issue in kind of the 3D realm because unnecessary 674 00:38:16,430 --> 00:38:19,950 detail isn't just a visual problem. 675 00:38:19,970 --> 00:38:22,270 It also becomes a performance problem, potentially, and there's 676 00:38:22,270 --> 00:38:23,180 all kinds of other things. 677 00:38:23,180 --> 00:38:28,290 But that's it, though, is as people see more photorealism, is that then 678 00:38:28,290 --> 00:38:29,680 what they're going to come to expect. 679 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,735 And so if you don't have that detail, you know, Then, you know, maybe, you 680 00:38:33,745 --> 00:38:36,995 know, your data becomes suspect or there might be other implications there. 681 00:38:36,995 --> 00:38:39,195 And I, by the way, just started thinking about this. 682 00:38:39,195 --> 00:38:42,295 So I'm not even sure kind of what my thoughts are on it yet. 683 00:38:42,305 --> 00:38:48,045 But, but that's an interesting kind of take on the evolution of our capability. 684 00:38:48,385 --> 00:38:50,115 Once people see those things. 685 00:38:50,665 --> 00:38:53,445 Or is our audience then going to change their thoughts 686 00:38:55,925 --> 00:38:56,905 taking what Sue said? 687 00:38:56,905 --> 00:38:59,845 It makes me think about does it then create a digital divide? 688 00:39:00,175 --> 00:39:03,985 Between the ego if you're creating legitimacy through photorealism 689 00:39:04,025 --> 00:39:08,995 where somebody has the money to keep that up then where does that leave 690 00:39:09,005 --> 00:39:12,005 the the people that they they might create something that that's very 691 00:39:12,035 --> 00:39:13,935 realistic and then ages very quickly 692 00:39:14,405 --> 00:39:18,755 What popped in my head thinking about this is that my general ethos is punk 693 00:39:18,755 --> 00:39:25,210 rock and by that I mean Most of punk rock is not necessarily perfectly in time. 694 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,210 They're not at a certain beats per minute throughout the entire song. 695 00:39:29,260 --> 00:39:32,730 They're playing usually simplified chords that aren't that complicated. 696 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,680 They're playing they're not always hitting them, right? 697 00:39:36,010 --> 00:39:37,890 There's a lot of error in that. 698 00:39:38,260 --> 00:39:38,960 But I love it. 699 00:39:39,090 --> 00:39:40,030 I actually love it. 700 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:41,450 I enjoy every part of it. 701 00:39:42,590 --> 00:39:46,950 It doesn't have to be intricate and complicated and perfect and all that 702 00:39:46,950 --> 00:39:48,090 sort of stuff for me to just go. 703 00:39:48,090 --> 00:39:50,130 Yeah, let's just that's wonderful. 704 00:39:50,140 --> 00:39:51,290 It makes me feel things. 705 00:39:51,830 --> 00:39:56,200 And I kind of feel like that's a philosophy that we would 706 00:39:56,210 --> 00:39:58,180 do well to embrace that. 707 00:39:58,460 --> 00:40:00,970 You know, it doesn't have, don't, you know, a more simpler 708 00:40:00,970 --> 00:40:03,210 version of that is don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. 709 00:40:03,230 --> 00:40:07,800 But in any of our cartographic representations, whether they be intended 710 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,360 to be hyper realistic or intended to be abstract, I think that the intent 711 00:40:11,370 --> 00:40:16,530 is there's a story or there's a message that I'm trying to communicate 712 00:40:16,580 --> 00:40:18,410 with my cartographic representation. 713 00:40:18,900 --> 00:40:19,800 Make sure that's it. 714 00:40:19,810 --> 00:40:21,020 That's what's being communicated. 715 00:40:21,030 --> 00:40:23,940 Everything else is either in service to it or who cares? 716 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:24,550 It's messy. 717 00:40:24,580 --> 00:40:24,660 I don't. 718 00:40:25,660 --> 00:40:26,350 Don't worry about it. 719 00:40:27,070 --> 00:40:31,560 People are, are very familiar as a whole with having to make imperfect 720 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:33,540 information and make decisions. 721 00:40:33,540 --> 00:40:35,450 I'm sorry, based upon imperfect information. 722 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,740 Can I get to the restaurant on time to meet my friends? 723 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,570 I'm assuming traffic's going to be okay because it usually is. 724 00:40:41,580 --> 00:40:44,160 And then you get stuck behind a truck and then you're going to be late. 725 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,800 Well, you still made a decision on when to leave, but not knowing 726 00:40:47,810 --> 00:40:49,760 whether or not there would be any trucks on the road that day. 727 00:40:50,140 --> 00:40:50,740 So there's. 728 00:40:50,740 --> 00:40:50,770 Okay. 729 00:40:51,090 --> 00:40:53,920 That's something we all do as a natural course of action. 730 00:40:54,410 --> 00:41:01,340 And I kind of feel like we need to train people more to think more punk rock. 731 00:41:01,905 --> 00:41:06,725 Cartography wise to say, don't worry about it doesn't matter this is what you 732 00:41:06,725 --> 00:41:09,605 need to be thinking about and focused on and we can do that somewhat with 733 00:41:09,605 --> 00:41:14,235 our cartographic choices by bringing certain things to the for metaphorically, 734 00:41:14,255 --> 00:41:19,845 not literally and pushing things further back, but we also can encourage 735 00:41:19,845 --> 00:41:21,955 people by explaining how they can. 736 00:41:22,255 --> 00:41:24,955 They can interpret these cartographic representations 737 00:41:25,155 --> 00:41:29,545 are, and that is that is, that is a series of responses to my two 738 00:41:29,545 --> 00:41:31,785 perspectives on Sue's generalized topic 739 00:41:32,795 --> 00:41:33,115 switch. 740 00:41:33,115 --> 00:41:35,375 I'm sure we'll revisit in another way, 741 00:41:36,665 --> 00:41:39,915 but it's been a while since we talked about the idea of 3D and cartography. 742 00:41:39,915 --> 00:41:41,345 So it was, it was time. 743 00:41:41,345 --> 00:41:43,385 I think it's been, you know, what, 4 or 5 years. 744 00:41:43,765 --> 00:41:47,825 And that is weird that we can always say, well, it's been 4 or 5 years or 10 years. 745 00:41:47,835 --> 00:41:48,775 It's been 15 years. 746 00:41:49,325 --> 00:41:52,325 Well, we can embrace our, we can embrace almost well. 747 00:41:52,530 --> 00:41:54,680 Two of our Southern roots and say, it's been a spell. 748 00:41:57,260 --> 00:41:58,900 I never, I don't think I've ever said that 749 00:41:59,530 --> 00:42:02,030 me either, but I like doing it occasionally in these 750 00:42:02,030 --> 00:42:03,410 contexts because it amuses me. 751 00:42:03,540 --> 00:42:03,890 Okay. 752 00:42:05,030 --> 00:42:06,200 Or pieces in a piece. 753 00:42:06,420 --> 00:42:11,420 And so let us know what you think about how you're using cartographic concepts 754 00:42:11,420 --> 00:42:15,260 in your 3d analysis representations. 755 00:42:15,260 --> 00:42:15,570 There we go. 756 00:42:15,570 --> 00:42:19,640 Representations onto the events corner, as always check out 757 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:21,040 these events and others near you. 758 00:42:21,790 --> 00:42:27,100 . So the QGIS user conference 2025 is taking place June 2nd through 759 00:42:27,100 --> 00:42:31,690 third in nor coping Sweden. 760 00:42:31,720 --> 00:42:35,170 And I know I mispronounced that because I did listen to how it's pronounced today. 761 00:42:35,170 --> 00:42:36,640 And then I totally just forgot. 762 00:42:36,715 --> 00:42:39,670 I, I listened to her, listened to it, and I said, that's all you 763 00:42:41,655 --> 00:42:42,490 nor copying. 764 00:42:43,060 --> 00:42:44,595 Of course, if you'd like us to add your event. 765 00:42:45,565 --> 00:42:48,785 In Sweden or in other places to the podcasts, send us an 766 00:42:48,785 --> 00:42:50,435 email podcast at very spatial. 767 00:42:50,495 --> 00:42:50,755 com. 768 00:42:51,505 --> 00:42:54,685 If you'd like to reach us individually, I can be reached at Sue at very spatial. 769 00:42:54,825 --> 00:42:55,135 com. 770 00:42:55,715 --> 00:42:57,435 I can be reached at Barb at very spatial. 771 00:42:57,585 --> 00:42:57,915 com. 772 00:42:58,005 --> 00:42:59,615 You can reach me at Frank at very spatial. 773 00:42:59,745 --> 00:43:00,035 com. 774 00:43:00,235 --> 00:43:01,595 I'm available at Jesse at very spatial. 775 00:43:01,665 --> 00:43:03,505 com and at kind of spatial. 776 00:43:03,535 --> 00:43:06,475 And you can find all of our contact information over at very spatial. 777 00:43:06,625 --> 00:43:07,895 com slash contacts. 778 00:43:08,205 --> 00:43:08,895 As always. 779 00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:10,560 We're the folks from very spatial. 780 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:11,430 Thanks for listening, 781 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:12,870 and we'll see you in a couple weeks. 782 00:45:17,750 --> 00:45:22,524 Storytelling.