Well Dr.
Nicole Wilkie, it is about time that we got you on Think Global Do Justice.
It's been so long that we never got you on Think Orphan.
It's been now, Think Global Do Justice, we're finally getting you on with all your prolific writing, all the sim labs, all the amazing stuff we're gonna talk about today,
and just great friendship over the years.
I can't wait for this conversation, so great to have you.
Thanks for having me.
I'm so excited to be here.
Yeah, well, let's just get right to it because we got a lot to cover.
We just always love starting by you introducing yourself for those few people out there who don't know who you are.
Can you just introduce yourself to our audience and share what led you to working in global orphan care?
Yeah, well in some ways child welfare orphan care has been my whole life since day one.
I am a bio kid in a foster adoptive kinship family and I even actually lived in residential care when I was really young and my parents were house parents.
So I've kind of seen it all from that side.
And then, you know, as I got older, I just really wanted to learn and to understand some of what had happened with some of my siblings.
And I was seeing pieces and parts, not really
conceptualizing the whole picture.
I just started doing training with my parents when I was a teenager.
I would go to foster parent training with them.
And then over the years just worked in a number of different angles on this topic from residential care to working with children with special needs.
And finally, my husband and I found ourselves in Namibia working with a locally led foster care organization.
And I think that was the first point at which
I started to wonder if this wasn't part of God's will for my life too, professionally.
Not just that I was kind of along for the ride, but instead that I was going to be taking an active role, more active than I had.
So we went back to the U.S.
and I became a marriage and family therapist, worked mostly with foster, adoptive, and kinship families and really, really loved that.
And then as I became a mom,
I started working with the Christian Alliance for Orphans.
And in particular, I work with the Center on Applied Research for Vulnerable Children and Families.
So that was a career change that was really, in some ways, such a beautiful professional journey, but also was just a real personal gift to me and has continued to be.
So I've been there about 11 years.
And in the research center, we serve our 290 member organizations, our 50-some networks.
I lose count.
but so many people doing really, really good work around the world.
And then in addition to that, my family and I live in Peru, where my husband leads a care reform coalition.
So that's the gist of it.
That's how I got here.
Just a few little things, we'll get into a lot more detail.
You also have three beautiful girls.
And it's always been fun to get to know them as they serve everybody at the Sim Lab every year.
Although this year it was a little different, but that's okay, that's okay.
Next year I'm sure they'll be back.
Alright, so the next thing we always love to hear from our guests is why do you think it's important for Christians to not only think about their own family and community,
but consider the needs of people globally.
Yeah, I think this is such an important conversation to have and I could spend the entire hour on it, I will not.
But I think it's really, really critical.
think, you know, there's several key points, but I'll just touch the surface on a few.
So firstly, justice and mercy are tied to evangelism and discipleship.
And when we think about going and making disciples, which is a global conversation, a global concept,
We also need to have a deep love and care for those who we are going to.
So in that way, that's one of the angles of consideration for why to engage globally.
But also when we think about caring for the needs of people globally, we think about the reality that we need each other.
So the global church has different regions and different areas and different strengths.
What church looks like in the West,
is maybe different from majority world or the global south.
What we have as assets and resources and tools and skills looks different.
One's not better or worse.
They're just different, right?
But the reality is that it's often very complimentary and we need each other.
So things that we have in excess in the West, like for example, we have more education and more financial resources than we've ever had in the history of the church.
And oftentimes in the global south, the church really needs access to that knowledge, that training, those financial resources, and we can share, right?
But it's not just about the West giving to the global south, global north to global south.
It's really about the mutuality.
We have things in the global north that we need from the global south too.
There are examples in radical faith and deep commitment, sacrificial commitment to prayer.
The testimony of the persecuted church are all really important in our faith and challenging us to live out our faith in ways that we couldn't without them.
And then finally, I would just say that being involved in caring for the global church is really a gift.
It's a gift that Jesus invites us into and he can do it without us.
He does not need us.
But it is something that he wants to give us because he cares for us and he wants us to have purpose in this world.
So I think
instead of thinking of it as just a pouring out, it's really this mutually beneficial relationship and it's something that you're going to miss out if you don't choose to
engage and accept that invitation.
that.
well, I mean, you really you sound like you just got back from Lausanne, which I know I know is in fact the case.
And I love that mutuality, you know, before we kind of I want to dig into what you guys are doing at the OVC Research Center, but even just kind of going off of what you just
shared about mutuality, there's different assets, different strengths that are available in different
areas or different parts of the body of Christ, right?
How do you kind of see that done well specifically within global orphan care?
Like the area that you're most invested in, I mean, we can kind of look at it from like a foreign aid, you have donor countries and recipient countries or whatever, but how do you
see it done well?
Kind of aside from just kind of the, you know, whatever that normative relationship looks like.
How do you kind of see that come in orphan care?
Yeah, so I think there are a lot of really good examples.
think some of those examples tend to be quite small, at least to start, with a lot of humility and relationship.
Everything is focused around relationship and listening and learning and really empowering and platforming local leaders.
It's not empowering that we are giving them power, but empowering as we are reminding them.
of their power and their rightful role.
And the best people, like even in our work in Peru, the best people to care for Peruvian children are Peruvians.
And so we are there to make sure that they have everything they need to step into their rightful role.
And the church everywhere has, like I said, different assets, different abilities, but collectively when we're able to work together, we're able to give children and families
all that they need and more.
And I think when we...
When we think about how to do this really well, the thing that comes to my mind is proceed slowly.
It's very, very slow.
Building trust-based relationships takes time.
And for those of us who originated in the global north, we can be very time-bound.
We can kind of rush in with our goals and objectives, which are good.
It's good to have goals and objectives.
But sometimes we need to take it down like six notches.
and be willing to go at the pace of our local partners and really listening to them about what they see as both the needs and the assets of the local community and the local
families that they're seeking to serve.
Yeah, really well said.
And one of the things that it reminds me even on that empowerment front, because and we had this conversation earlier this year with Gaston Warner, who is obviously working in
the area of vulnerable children as well.
There's a difference when we talk about empowerment.
This is something that that that I've mentioned before.
There's exogenous empowerment and endogenous.
And basically what the differentiation is there are you saying, hey, we have the power and we're going to give it to you and
which case you're really only reinforcing the power differential in the first place, right?
Because it's basically working off of the premise that I have more power than you, right?
Whereas endogenous empowerment is basically saying the power is already there.
It might be latent within you, but you actually have the authority in this context.
So anything that we do in quote unquote empowerment is really just going to be drawing out that dignity and that power and that strength that God has intrinsically put in you,
especially as a local authority.
within this community.
So I really appreciate how you put that in.
In some ways, I think our past conversations with Craig Greenfield has also kind of informed this because it can be fraught to work cross-culturally, but at the same time...
God calls us into those spaces, right?
He called you to Peru, right?
He called, you know, Craig to Cambodia.
He called, you know, people different places at different times.
So that's really helpful.
You know, when we think about orphan care, we talk and have over the years talked with a lot of different practitioners in different countries, doing different types of work.
most of the time we're talking about practice, right?
Most of the time we're saying, hey, what's going on in this area?
What's your guys' model?
All of that.
At CAFO, at the OVC Research Center, you have a pretty unique role kind of within the broader orphan care, yeah, sector.
Can you share with us about the work?
at the research center and even kind of what led CAFO to establish the center.
mean, what was it that was kind of missing in the field of orphan care that your guys as the research center is actually addressing?
Yeah, it's a great question.
I think it was a maturing in the global orphan care field where about a decade ago there was a lot of enthusiasm, a lot of inspiration, to some extent equipping, but largely
Christians were becoming known for leading with their hearts instead of their heads.
There was a lot of good intention and not a lot of great outcomes largely.
So the etiology behind the research center was to really look at how do we connect research and practice in a meaningful way?
How do we facilitate the cross-pollination of ideas between these often disparate sides of any field?
There's often this gap between research and practice, and there can even be some level of distrust or animosity between the two groups, and we thought, no, none of this.
What does it look like to really leverage the best available knowledge and apply it to frontline practice in a sustainable and locally informed way?
So that was where we started.
And then from there, we've just been able to continuously, by God's grace, develop original research and then also translate existing research into actionable tools for
practitioners to be able to implement right where they are.
And I think that that's an important distinction as well.
When we talk, because it's applied research, which you can have certain types of research that just remains very theoretical, know, philosophical kind of up in the clouds.
But what you guys are specifically focused on is how do we take, you know, what is already existing in terms of like the research knowledge base and making it something that is
applied, that is applicable, that actually works in practice.
And I know that this is something that we've talked about in the podcast for years is there is that gap.
like you guys are doing a really good job of meeting that gap specifically within the orphan care space.
So along that front, know, we are well aware that from studies that
family-based care is the best potential placement for a child.
You also need a menu of services, a continuum of care.
All of these are things that we are well aware of.
And we also know that in practice, it can be very challenging to institute those best practices or those theories or what development studies have shown us.
So I would love, because that is a core part to kind of how you
guys operate and really how CAFO as a whole operate which is to see kids within flourishing families.
Can you walk us through some of the kind of key products and practices that have been developed at the center?
I know you guys have a number of these so I'll just kind of throw them out one by one just share with us a little bit about what this is doing and how it's supporting practice so
maybe we start with core elements.
Yeah, I would love to, but I'd love to say something else first about what you just said, because I think it's so important.
When it comes to applied research, I think it's really important for people to understand that there's a really significant difference between much of the research today, which
might be with a really specific sample or in really specific conditions, and it is simply not applicable.
And most practitioners...
are very bright, they're motivated.
You don't go into this field because you want an easy job.
But at the same time, they do not have the time to digest hundreds of 50 page research articles and then try to figure out what tiny seed in there might be applicable to what
they're doing.
So that's essentially what applied research is.
It's really figuring out what are the types of research that can be most applicable and then answering those questions that kind of matter most to practitioners.
And...
You know, when you're talking about, what can people do then?
I think the one thing that we try to emphasize in everything that we do is helping people move to their one next step.
Every practitioner can identify with the feeling of reading a book or going to a conference or getting some resources online and digesting them and then feeling like, I
have 27 things on my list.
and I will get to them on Monday.
And of course Monday comes and there's a crisis and it never happens.
And so we can consistently feel overwhelmed.
We feel under qualified.
We feel like we're failing, right?
And so instead what we're trying to help people understand is there is a body of research and best practices.
You don't need to reinvent the wheel, but what we encourage people to do is just take that one next step, make one really good habit, make one tiny change and then do one more and
one more.
And our Core Elements program is based around that idea where we distilled 1,200 pages of global guidance and research.
And from there, we gathered 40 practitioners, 40 organizations to digest a draft.
And essentially what we came up with is a self-assessment.
This self-assessment is based on conditional logic, meaning it's slightly different for every person.
It's kind of like Strengths Finders is how I would describe it.
And then you get this customized automated report that helps you to understand where do you stack up on 21 key areas of care for vulnerable children.
And then from there, it points you to key resources, courses that will help you get from zero competency to a basic level of competency within that one learning experience.
So that's what our core elements looks like.
you
That's really good.
And I think you guys are ahead of the curve in some of these kind of learning and education things.
I know we recently had a conversation just kind of looking at education in general, higher ed in particular.
But what you what you just described there is really kind of a curtailed approach to to development of an organization and advancement of a practice.
So I think that that's that's really valuable.
and with as we're talking with Nicole today, Dr.
Wilkie, as I might call her, we will be linking all of these things in the show notes.
So if you hear something about Core Elements or the books that we'll be discussing here in a moment, whatever it is, please just, our listeners can definitely check out the show
notes where you guys can get directly connected to resources that Nicole and her team at CAFO are developing.
So Core Elements is huge.
One of the big things and something that actually Phil and I have also been able to collaborate with you on is moving towards family-based solutions, which can look like a
few different things, including the intensive that just took place at the summit not too long ago.
Can you kind of talk with us about what you guys are doing within that space and some of those initiatives?
Absolutely.
So we know, as you mentioned from research, that the ideal place for a child to thrive is within the context of a healthy family.
We know that from scripture as well, right?
So we can be pretty certain of this.
The reality can be more complex.
And for many organizations, they've ended up caring for children in a residential setting.
And then after the fact, they find out, wait, this might not be the ideal.
So what we see from our end working with organizations is that residential care organizations are part of the solution for getting children into families and for caring
well for families.
We want to see all of them given the opportunity to move in the direction of supporting children and families.
And that can look a wide variety of ways, right?
There's no one size fits all approach.
So one of the things we do in the events that
that you all were part of is our Moving Towards Family Solutions Simulation Lab.
It's a one-day event where we get to immerse ourselves in a case study and walk through the process of transition.
No longer do we have to think, well, what about this situation, or what about this child, or this family, and kind of get off track because we're so emotionally invested in our own
programs.
But instead, we get to just learn the process.
And then from there, we get to connect with amazing table coaches like yourselves to learn more about what's possible where we are and to start to make those steps towards family
solutions for children.
So we're doing a number of things with that.
We also have actually created a course, an online course for those that can't be there in person or can't find an event near them.
It takes a little bit of doing to get the right situation for that.
So it's not always possible and
We just piloted that this year and it went really well.
So lots of options for people.
That is good.
again, these things will be linked in the show notes.
So the last one, and I was also privileged that you guys even gave me a cool blue hat, is the Care Transition Accelerator Academy.
This is something that I'm really passionate about and something that I've invested time in my career is to say, all right, what does this look like in a given context, right?
Because how it looks in Peru is going to look different from Tanzania, where I was, or it's going to look different from the Middle East or different
fill in the blank country.
And yet, I mean, I work in child welfare in Washington state right now, and there's areas that need to be developed, right, in terms of appropriate care.
So you guys develop CTAA to start to address some of those gaps and also to kind of increase services in other areas.
you talk with us a little bit about the Accelerator Academy as well?
Absolutely.
I unequivocally believe that the best return on investment is working with local leaders.
As somebody who's lived cross-culturally, I can tell you after living seven years in Peru, I've lived there just long enough to start to know what I don't know.
And that's typical of cross-cultural engagement.
What that means is that there are a lot of variables that can be taken out when we are working with local leaders.
And yet sometimes local leaders have not been able to access the same sources of education or support that we have.
So the CTA serves to remove that barrier by bringing local leaders who are already super invested in global child welfare.
They are already experienced.
They've often worked in multiple organizations doing this work.
Often they've worked in an organization that has transitioned from residential to family care and they want to walk alongside other or other organizations.
in the process of care transition.
They just need some coaching, some support, some equipping, and that's what we provide.
It's a two-year program.
The first year is weekly two-hour classes that are preceded by several hours of homework.
It's quite an intensive program.
And then the second year is a mentored practicum for an entire year.
So they will find an organization that is interested in
in transitioning to family care, maybe in the process of transition, that they can walk alongside under the supervision and advisement of a faculty mentor.
So somebody that is investing with a lecture and Q &A like you are, Brandon.
So we are able to see people who have all the right motivations, so many skills, so many assets that they bring, able to be equipped and then live it out in the real world,
gaining some confidence and some competence.
and then unleash them to see organization after organization be supported to transition to family care.
I love all that stuff.
mean, I've been able to be a part of the sim labs for several years now getting to MC that and kind of be a part of it that way and see this, amazing conversations that are able to
be had from with the incredible coaches, the incredible people coming in from all over the world.
It's been, it's been amazing.
And to, know all the work that you've put in behind the scenes to get that, to get that going every year.
It's just awesome.
So I'm just grateful for all that you've put into this All these different things man.
What what a what a great thing.
So we're gonna transition now though, cuz you got another great thing that you just put out with dr.
Amanda Howard And it's this overcoming book here.
I got a little bookmark in it because I use this book at the conference or at the summit with the talk on the
building resilience through or with vulnerable children through sport, play and fitness.
it applied like every one of the principles was like, yes, you can do this through sports 100%.
And it's actually what sports is all about.
Right.
And we talk about resilience all the time on my soccer podcast, totally different, totally different thing.
But it's so cool to see how not only these principles work in the context of vulnerable children and families, but in literally everything.
Right.
And so I love the subtitle, what scripture and science say about resilience.
It reminds me of conversation we had with Kurt Thompson talking about how science will never catch up to scripture, but it can confirm scripture.
And so that's something that I love that this book has done that so well.
So can you just talk with our audience just about what motivated you and Mandy to write this book?
Yeah, it's a good question.
I would say it was a little bit of hope, a little bit of despair, and some theology where we were seeing conversations move in a direction that seemed pretty maladaptive.
And also we were not seeing good fruit from those conversations.
So when you start to look at science and theology, you're seeing what scripture says, you're seeing what science says.
And it's just not lining up with the typical rhetoric of the day.
So as we begin to talk about it and consider and have a lot of conversations with people in our audience, we saw that countless times and we'd seen this personally, people who
should not overcome did and people who would you would expect to maybe didn't succeed as well as.
as one would expect.
So the question is why?
We have these overcomers, we have these outliers, and yet still the conversation is largely negative.
It's largely deterministic.
You've experienced trauma, it's not going to go well for you.
To some extent, there was certain research that was even saying that in certain groups and from certain perspectives.
But what we saw in scripture is that we're more than conquerors and we're being transformed.
all of these truths that we wanted to draw out and re-emphasize.
It's not necessarily that they're new truths, it's that they're reminder truths, things that we know that we need to keep at the front of our minds when we're caring for kids who
have experienced difficult things.
That's good.
I love that.
And I think what you said, and we'll get into this more, I'm sure, is just some that we expected to overcome did not, and others that there's no way, right?
There's no way.
there's more to it, right?
And so, you know, we do hear lot about trauma nowadays, and maybe even we talk about it too much, right?
If you talk about something too much, maybe sometimes people that they kind of create things, right?
But I don't think that's going on in a lot of the people we're talking about.
on this show, but do feel the term is overused or is it good for us to be talking about trauma this much and what's missing from the conversation?
Well, that's a complicated question, but yes, it's the right question to ask, I think.
I mean, as a former therapist, I dealt with trauma all the time, and I can confirm it is 100 % real, it is 100 % serious.
It's not something that we should take lightly.
I'll also say that the term, especially in the global north, has often been watered down.
You see it on social media, you see the teenager that comes in and says,
My favorite restaurant didn't have white meat and I was traumatized.
That would be an inappropriate understanding of what this term means.
Certainly trauma doesn't apply to every situation.
And certainly some of the ways that we've heard trauma invoked within larger conversations have also been inappropriate.
Trauma doesn't define you.
It doesn't determine your future.
it's not an excuse, it's not a dictator, it's not a badge of honor.
There are all these ways that it's been kind of manipulated and used for different stories or different gains, but that's not really what it is.
Now if we were talking about trauma through the lens of truth, I would be really happy that we're having this many conversations, but you know if we're looking at the truth of
science and the truth of scripture and where those converge, we're seeing really good things actually where
we see that there is trauma in many parts of the world and all throughout the world, but when handled rightly, it is not the end of the story.
And we talk about in the book how it can be one footnote in the epic novel God Has For Your Child.
And I think that's so important to remember that it's a piece of the story.
It doesn't inform everything else that comes after.
It doesn't dictate the future, even if it is the present.
I think it's important to remember that when handled rightly, we can see children who experience those early adversities, those really hard early things, actually becoming
overcomers, conquering those difficult things.
I love that.
I love that, that, defining the term, right?
Like, I mean, to make sure that we're talking about the right thing and, because so many words, so many terms, and we talk about that, so many terms are overused in society,
right?
People talk about, you know, gospel truth and they use that in like, you know, it's gospel truth.
They're going back to the food that this pizza is the best.
So, you know, it's like, no, no, you can't, when you start overusing this thing, it ceases to mean what it.
means, right?
You know, same thing with, you know, justice, right?
Like even, even when we talked about the title for this part, it's like justice means so much to different people.
What is the true justice, which is what we want to be talking about.
And like, and so to say we don't want to throw words out because they're misused, we want to use them better.
And we want to make sure that we can help people understand what we actually mean by this term.
that is being overused in particularly here in the in the West because of social media, because of people's platforms that don't have expertise, they don't have experience, they
just are throwing stuff out there and we got to be careful with that.
that's why you know books like this are so good to be able to get deeper into these things and so how does early adversity turn into trauma kind of going you know to the next step
and why are some children affected more than others?
Yeah, it's a good question.
So why early adversity turns into trauma is actually an instantaneous and subconscious process that is not a decision.
We want to make it really clear.
It's not that a child decided, I'm going to be traumatized or I'm just not going to try that hard or whatever other type of stigma might be around trauma.
Trauma happens and
It's interesting something, occurrence, an experience, even a condition that a child has might mean trauma for one child and not for the next.
And that isn't to say that the one that is traumatized is necessarily weak or less than, to just be really clear.
It's all about perception.
So what is happening is there is a perception of threat to life or limb of either the individual or somebody that they're
very close to somebody that they love very much.
And that's how adversity turns into trauma.
And the good news is that adversity turning into trauma does not necessarily mean, again, that this is some sort of label stamped on you, this is going to be your future, but it
does mean that we need to work with that and we need to be conscious of that, we need to address it, we need to access the resources and supports.
the professionals that can help guide us in that process as we work with our children.
But it is something that will just occur in some kids and not in others.
Yeah, and kind of go to the next thing that I see is with that, it's going back to what you said earlier about some overcome, others don't.
And then you say it occurs in some, not others.
And we have this trauma, have this kind of taking it to the resilience part of this conversation.
So you share in the book that resilience is not a fixed trait, but rather can be formed, which goes to...
some overcoming, some not, some experiencing, some not.
But what are the keys to building resilience and really overcoming the trauma?
Yeah, well, firstly, I just think this is so exciting, right?
Like if somebody is gonna take anything away from this takeaway that resilience can be formed, it can be formed at any age, it can be formed in any individual, it can be formed
at, you before or after a really difficult thing.
It is very malleable and usable and actionable.
And I just think it's one of the best pieces of news that we have right now.
and care for vulnerable kids is the concept of resilience.
In terms of how it's formed, so it's essentially a formula, all right?
We need some kind of challenge and we combine that with protective factors and that makes resilience, okay?
So the cool thing about this, the interesting thing, the counterintuitive thing, cool to me as a researcher, right?
Not necessarily fun to experience, but we need challenge.
So.
our kids who have experienced early adversity actually have a leg up on building resilience.
Now we wouldn't want them to experience early adversity.
It's not like, you know, like I have a toddler and oftentimes with parents of toddlers, you'll see the child like digging their hand into the dirt of your plant and eating it and
you just kind of laugh it off and you go, they're building their immunity.
They're building resilience.
Yes, we don't laugh off early adversity, right?
Like to be clear, this is not.
one of those things, but it is something where we can trust that even what the enemy meant for evil, God can use for good.
And we see that on a regular basis.
People that have experienced really hard early things who go on to do great things in life, right?
So you need that early challenge.
Now the good news for those of you parents who might be like, well, maybe my kids haven't experienced early adversity.
Does that mean they won't be resilient?
No, there are other types of challenge like sports that you brought up, Phil.
Or like one of the things that we do with our girls is we go on really big hikes.
So they are 10, 7, and 3.
To be fair, the 3-year-old doesn't hike yet.
But we just did a 15,000 foot 5-day hike with them.
And that was challenging, right?
That's hard.
But they're building their resilience.
And then when they get home and they're like, I'm struggling with my division facts, it puts it in perspective when you're like, please, you just hiked 15,000 feet.
Mm-hmm.
I think you can handle this.
So you have to start with that challenge piece.
That's like the raw material of building resilience.
And then we combine it with protective factors.
And of course, that's kind of a jargony term, like what's a protective factor.
But it's essentially the good things in a child's life that support them.
things like individual child protective factors like optimism or a focus on the future or a belief
that they can overcome something or even things like being able to say that I have extracurricular activities or I do really well in school.
Those are protective factors.
It's something I think about myself other than this hard thing that I've experienced.
And then there are family protective factors like strong family relationships or good communication.
Even the idea of like not being in poverty and being able to have...
basic needs covered within your family.
That's a family protective factor, good attachment, all family protective factors.
And then when we get to the community level, there are much larger systems ideas that can be protective factors like access to medical care, good education, a stable government,
not being in geopolitical conflict, not being a child that's displaced.
Things like that can also be protective factors.
And when we think about, well,
how do we use these or what does it look like?
What's most helpful for me when I was first conceptualizing this is thinking of them as a balance, okay?
Like the old school where you're balancing how much something weighs and the money.
Okay, so the thing is you want to outbalance the adversity that a child has experienced by loading up the protective factor side.
so that this early adversity, this trauma potentially that they've experienced, again, becomes that footnote in that epic novel, where it's one piece, but it's not the dominant
piece.
It's not the dominant conversation in their lives.
It is something that is there and that we acknowledge, but not that we focus on.
Does that all make sense?
Yeah, absolutely.
I, couple things that are related to that, right?
And when you're talking about the challenge, what I often say is, know, the best things in life happen on just the other side of comfortable, right?
So you have that challenge that's not too far out of comfortable, because if it's too far out of comfortable, they're not gonna do it, and it's just too much, and they probably
shouldn't do it.
You know, that old, you know, let them fall off their bike, don't let them ride off the cliff, right?
So that, that...
That same with hiking, right?
Like, do the hike, but don't take them on half dome without the cables.
Like, these are things that you're smart, you're wise with it, and, you know, and with the protective factors with the bike, gonna keep that analogy going.
You're gonna have training wheels.
You're gonna be walking alongside them at first.
But at some point, they gotta fall.
If they don't fall, they're not gonna really learn how to ride a bike, you know, unless they're extremely coordinated at a young age, which happened with one of my children.
But...
That was a freaky thing that I know.
But unfortunately it was the first child, so the rest of them fell more than they probably should have.
But that's a whole different conversation.
But that idea, is that pretty accurate there?
I'm just trying to kind of bring it down to a level that most people would really get, because they've done it at some point if they have kids, right?
Absolutely.
The protective factors are those things that add cushion, right?
So the more of those protective factors you have, it is like training wheels or I mean, think of the relational protective factors.
If you grew up in a relatively healthy family, you know that if you fall on your bike carrying this analogy, you know where you can go.
You know who to look to.
You know, you're looking for mom's face to say,
hey, it's okay, or if she's panicking, you know to panic, right?
So it's about having that cushion, those pieces of the world that help you know where you are and help you know that you're okay.
Yeah, that's really, really helpful.
I'm thinking through because as you guys make these, as we're talking through this, there's a serious practical aspect to the book as well, including some frameworks.
can you maybe, I mean, you don't have to get into them, all of them, I know, because there's quite a few of them, but there are these data-informed practices that specifically
help us build resilience in children that we're interacting with.
kind of share with us maybe some of the more salient ones that would be helpful for our conversation.
Absolutely.
yeah, about half of the book is practical frameworks.
I think those are really important for busy parents and professionals.
None of us have the desire to sit there and kind of need to digest, well, how does this apply to my life?
How can I use that?
And so we've done that for our readers.
We have to take that guesswork out of the research and make it really actionable.
There are nine, I'll just kind of hit on two if that's okay.
And again, we're encouraging people to take it one step at a time.
What's your one next step?
You're not going to make nine habit changes at once.
That's just not going to happen.
So what are the tiny repeatable habits or steps or changes that you can make across time that overall over time will build up into something really great.
So, you know, one of them,
that we have is related to watching what you say and think.
So how many times have you heard somebody say something like, that's my trauma kid, that's my ADHD kid.
This kind of thing happens all the time and we don't mean anything negative by it, but what happens when our kids hear us and they're being defined by this label?
That's really hard for anyone.
And especially for a little person who maybe doesn't really
know what their identity is, they're trying to figure out their place in the world.
It can be so tempting to express those things or to even think those things.
And unfortunately, it's not sufficient to just not say it, right?
Because what happens when we even think it is that it comes out in our behaviors, it comes out in our tone, in our body language.
And so it's really important to take every thought captive, as scripture says, but in this instance about our children, about how they're behaving, about how they're expressing
themselves, about how maybe frustrated we are because before they were with us, life was one way and after they came to our home, it's this other way.
So really taking those thoughts captive.
And we give some practical steps in there, one of which,
is simply memorizing scripture.
So we've identified and included in the book several identity-based scriptures that we can memorize with our children and help them to create those neural pathways around their
identity.
This is who I am.
This is God.
This is who God says I am.
He is the author of truth.
I'm made in his image.
And really helping those to be the thoughts that are going through their heads
and going through your head as a parent or a caregiver that my child is made in God's image, not my child is defined by their trauma.
So several practical steps in there.
I won't get into all the details here, but those are all in the book.
And then one other practical framework I'll talk about is setting structure and healthy expectations.
And this is often one that we get some push back on, but also one of the most
effective even in the early stages of implementing these.
sometimes there's a little bit of almost distrust that this will work and then parents do really find it effective.
But the truth is in our current narrative around trauma, oftentimes with the focus being on the trauma, we end up sort of tiptoeing around difficult things.
We can feel as the parents or the caregivers like my kid has experienced so many hard things.
I want to make it my job that they never experience anything difficult again.
Well, guess what?
That has not worked, it?
It has not had the outcomes that we would hope.
Because the reality is your child's future professor or boss does not care that they had trauma.
So it's our job to prepare them to be able to contribute to the world and exist in the world and survive in the world, right?
Our job as parents, as caregivers, is actually to build up their capacity.
Not to say this is where your capacity is now it needs to stay there, but instead to build them up over time.
So in order to do that, we have to have expectations.
The rest of the world will have expectations.
So how do we have expectations that are appropriate?
And one of the things that we talk about that we're big fans of is Vygotsky's zones of proximal development.
Now hang with me here for a minute, okay?
Just a minute.
I use this framework in my class at Vanguard, so I'm so glad.
Yes.
As soon she said Vykotsky, I'm like, all right, let's do it.
All right, break it.
Break it down, Dr.
Wilkie.
We're in good company here then.
Okay, so I love this framework because I've seen it play out hundreds and hundreds of times across countless different families, right?
But essentially, zones of proximal development, simply put, is this idea that we're going to assess, informally, obviously, we're gonna assess where our kids are, and we're gonna
figure out where we want them to go, and what is the next step.
What's the next step in that direction?
Okay?
So we're not going to say going back to the bike analogy, I'm not going to say to my three-year-old, hey, get on this bike that's too big for you and go ride really far by
yourself.
No, I'm going to first of all, get a bike that's appropriately sized, which would be small.
I'm gonna make sure that there are training wheels, that we've got the little elbow pads, know, all the extra steps that you need.
But with my support, she can get to that next level.
Now, how does this work in something that we care more about than riding a bike maybe?
Okay, so let's imagine that you are doing foster care and you have a child come into your home and they've come from a really chaotic situation.
So they've never been expected to do chores and they are not excited when you say, listen, we do chores in this family and you're going to be doing the dinner dishes.
That's gonna be your part.
Everyone does their part and they're like, well, no, I'm not.
So you have a choice.
you can either double down and create a power struggle, which is just not going to go well.
We don't want to go in that direction.
You can try, but I'm not going to say that I told you, but here we are.
Instead, what we can do is come alongside and build the capacity to move to that next step.
So we say, okay, come on into the kitchen with me.
I'm going to do the dishes and you're going to dry.
I'll wash you dry.
We do that for a few days.
Wow, you're doing a great job on drying.
Now I'm gonna have you wash the dishes and I'm gonna stand here and dry the dishes, all right?
So we're still doing this, we're side by side, we're there if they need us, we're having conversation, we're bonding, we're getting to know each other.
We might not even be saying any words, right?
But we're spending the time together, we're investing.
So eventually we're saying, okay, I'm going to go next here to this next space, I'm gonna.
I'm going to organize the refrigerator while you wash and dry.
So I'm still there.
My presence is there.
That's giving my child the courage to undertake something that might be a little bit intimidating or challenging for them.
And maybe eventually I say, okay, I'll be in the next room while you do this.
And so I'm backing myself away.
I'm decreasing the supports that they need, but I've taken them from not being able to do that thing or not wanting at least to do that thing.
to build their capacity so they can do it and they can do it independently without their needing to be shame or guilt or any of those other negative feelings that we want to
avoid.
So that's another example from the book that we offer as a framework.
Yeah, just one thing I will say is you did those two which are awesome.
like I said, all nine of these are fantastic and you guys do such a great job of describing and explaining what they are.
You even have a big page that has like the one of the main thoughts or main quotes which is very helpful for people to just kind of have that one thing.
you've missed everything else in this chapter, you want to make sure you got this thing.
But then also, I think that the ninth one which is...
put on your oxygen mask is so critical, right?
This self-care.
Because you're not gonna do any of the eight well if you're not healthy yourself.
You're not gonna be able to do that with the dishes if you're not healthy.
And I speaking from experience with five biological kids, with five kids doing that, if I'm not healthy myself, it doesn't go well when they don't do those dishes, right?
And so it doesn't go well when I have to be patient on their bike.
teaching them how to ride a bike.
It doesn't go well when I'm doing these different things.
So you need to make sure to be taking care of yourself.
And that's something I'm so glad that was one of them, because that could have so easily been overlooked.
And then people are like, well, how come it's not working?
Well, because you're not healthy.
And you're not yourself doing well with life.
And so you need to make sure that you're taking care of yourself to be able to, especially in this work with vulnerable children.
It's something that you better be healthy or else it won't go well.
That's good.
And going back to the example that Nicole shared with that whole more knowledgeable other is how Vickotsky puts it in terms of like, okay, there's a guidance here to me, what it
maps on very well with.
And even from the example that you gave, it's discipleship.
Like, there's a discipleship element.
so like when Jesus left and said, go and make disciples, I know I always keep coming back to this.
Our audience has heard me talk about it, but like, yeah, so much boils down to discipleship.
and even from this example and examples throughout overcoming, that comes across very significantly.
So, Nicole, as we kind of start to land the plane here.
Obviously, you know, over the years, you know, this podcast has really kind of been geared towards an audience that is really acutely aware of childhood adversity and, and even many
people welcoming children into their homes, you know, that that have gone through real, you know, trauma.
What encouragement would you have, you know, for those parents and caregivers who maybe feel a little hopeless, maybe even about their child's future?
yeah, I totally, I hear that, I see that.
It is so valid.
There are so many years sometimes of desert and some of them extend well into adulthood and sometimes we don't even see the answer that we would hope here, the sight of heaven.
And so it's really deep, difficult, sacrificial work.
I don't know if this will resonate with anyone but
when I'm talking to people and they say, we want to adopt, after gentle conversation, I try to diplomatically say, listen, are you ready to sacrifice the reputation of your
family?
The way that you think about yourselves in the world.
There's so much that goes with that.
But at the same time, I think both scripture and science give us a lot to be hopeful about.
a lot to be hopeful about.
see with research on resilience, see overcomers and outliers, people who are excelling and succeeding and maybe not right away, but are coming into this life where they know their
creator, they know who they are in him and that is so healing, right?
It's everything.
I would say that we serve the creator of the universe.
and nothing is impossible for him.
Being filled by the Spirit is going to be everything in this journey and it's easy to do that at times and sort of ride that wave and then run out, right?
Change the behavior, change the habits and start to run dry and it's never too late to get back to spending time with the Lord.
Like Phil was saying, you need to be healthy, you need to be filled up, you cannot pour from an empty cup, and that is so true.
But I would also say that our kids are made in God's image and they are built to be more than conquerors.
So we can have hope in that.
We can have hope that God wants to do great things in them and through us and in us in this entire process.
It is definitely a journey of...
stepping in to say yes to a high-risk situation and sometimes surrendering the outcomes, well, always surrendering the outcomes to him, sometimes not having the outcomes that we
would hope for.
But at the same time, I think that we can all recognize when we've been in this work that the blessing is in the obedience.
It's in obeying Christ and his call to care for vulnerable children and families, to care for orphans and widows.
And within that, we can trust that he has good
good things for us even if we don't see them right here in the temporal.
Amen.
That is a good word and certainly an encouragement.
to our listeners, you will find the Amazon link.
Is there a better spot for people to get the book or can I just do that?
I typically just do the Amazon link.
Is that good?
Okay, all right, so the link to Overcoming is there.
You've heard me and Phil praised it.
I was privileged to also offer an endorsement on the inside cover, which was fun.
I've believed in your work, Nicole, as well as that of Dr.
Howard.
So we're grateful that this book is available.
So encourage our listeners to grab Overcoming, especially, man, there's so much practical knowledge in this book.
I mean, it's a must have.
We do have one question that we ask everyone.
for you, you shared with us kind of your own genesis and maturation within this space.
As an American based in Latin America doing research, there may be another little Nicole Wilkie out there listening.
So for someone that is pursuing God's heart of justice in the nations, what is one thing that you would recommend that they
to.
I think it's very difficult to come to one.
I might add a couple, okay?
Be patient with me.
But I would say very serious and intense prayer is where to start.
There's no question.
Justice work without Jesus will chew you up and spit you out.
There's no question that you cannot do this on your own.
And yet when we are thriving in him, we are...
When we're living in the fullness of our relationship with Christ, there's no telling what he can do through us.
So I think serious and intense prayer, not rushing into it, right?
Like it is okay to go slowly.
Life is long.
But really diving into prayer.
And then I think slowly and everyone has different paces, of course, but listening and learning from examples of good practice, just...
trying to get a broad
picture of what God is actually doing in the world.
I think our temptation can be to think, I see a problem.
I personally have the solution.
Let me do it my way.
But the truth is there are so many people that have gone before us that have made the mistakes, that have done the learning that we can draw from and also just tremendously
powerful, amazing examples of God moving in incredible ways.
So learning from that, I think is the next step.
I mean, along with that, it's just not overvaluing what we have to offer.
I think just taking that humility or that humble stance, leading with humility, listening, learning, going slowly, just will bear so much fruit long-term.
So leading with prayer and humility would, I guess, sum that up.
Ooh, those are good ones.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, Nicole, this has been enlightening.
This has been practical.
This has been everything that we hoped that this conversation would be.
So we got lots of wins on this conversation.
So, Nicole, thank you so much for being with us and for your work at CAFO.
Thanks for having me.
It was a pleasure.
And to our listeners, may Almighty God who created us in his own image grant us grace to fearlessly contend against evil and to make no peace with oppression.
And that we may reverently use our freedom and employ it in the maintenance of justice in our communities and among the nations to the glory of God's holy name through Jesus Christ
our Lord, who lives and reigns with the Father and the Holy Spirit, one God now and forever.
Amen, and we will see you guys on the next episode of Think Global, Do Justice.