1 00:00:04,031 --> 00:00:04,611 Well Dr. 2 00:00:04,611 --> 00:00:12,496 Nicole Wilkie, it is about time that we got you on Think Global Do Justice. 3 00:00:12,496 --> 00:00:15,938 It's been so long that we never got you on Think Orphan. 4 00:00:15,938 --> 00:00:25,854 It's been now, Think Global Do Justice, we're finally getting you on with all your prolific writing, all the sim labs, all the amazing stuff we're gonna talk about today, 5 00:00:25,854 --> 00:00:28,626 and just great friendship over the years. 6 00:00:28,626 --> 00:00:31,567 I can't wait for this conversation, so great to have you. 7 00:00:31,832 --> 00:00:32,838 Thanks for having me. 8 00:00:32,838 --> 00:00:34,857 I'm so excited to be here. 9 00:00:35,614 --> 00:00:39,707 Yeah, well, let's just get right to it because we got a lot to cover. 10 00:00:40,969 --> 00:00:46,613 We just always love starting by you introducing yourself for those few people out there who don't know who you are. 11 00:00:47,315 --> 00:00:52,559 Can you just introduce yourself to our audience and share what led you to working in global orphan care? 12 00:00:53,548 --> 00:00:58,309 Yeah, well in some ways child welfare orphan care has been my whole life since day one. 13 00:00:58,309 --> 00:01:07,264 I am a bio kid in a foster adoptive kinship family and I even actually lived in residential care when I was really young and my parents were house parents. 14 00:01:07,264 --> 00:01:09,465 So I've kind of seen it all from that side. 15 00:01:09,465 --> 00:01:18,508 And then, you know, as I got older, I just really wanted to learn and to understand some of what had happened with some of my siblings. 16 00:01:18,508 --> 00:01:22,702 And I was seeing pieces and parts, not really 17 00:01:22,702 --> 00:01:25,022 conceptualizing the whole picture. 18 00:01:25,022 --> 00:01:28,564 I just started doing training with my parents when I was a teenager. 19 00:01:28,564 --> 00:01:31,665 I would go to foster parent training with them. 20 00:01:31,665 --> 00:01:40,337 And then over the years just worked in a number of different angles on this topic from residential care to working with children with special needs. 21 00:01:40,337 --> 00:01:46,869 And finally, my husband and I found ourselves in Namibia working with a locally led foster care organization. 22 00:01:46,869 --> 00:01:50,670 And I think that was the first point at which 23 00:01:50,774 --> 00:01:56,929 I started to wonder if this wasn't part of God's will for my life too, professionally. 24 00:01:56,929 --> 00:02:04,355 Not just that I was kind of along for the ride, but instead that I was going to be taking an active role, more active than I had. 25 00:02:04,355 --> 00:02:08,008 So we went back to the U.S. 26 00:02:08,209 --> 00:02:17,256 and I became a marriage and family therapist, worked mostly with foster, adoptive, and kinship families and really, really loved that. 27 00:02:17,276 --> 00:02:19,430 And then as I became a mom, 28 00:02:19,430 --> 00:02:22,271 I started working with the Christian Alliance for Orphans. 29 00:02:22,271 --> 00:02:27,413 And in particular, I work with the Center on Applied Research for Vulnerable Children and Families. 30 00:02:27,413 --> 00:02:37,888 So that was a career change that was really, in some ways, such a beautiful professional journey, but also was just a real personal gift to me and has continued to be. 31 00:02:37,888 --> 00:02:39,818 So I've been there about 11 years. 32 00:02:40,079 --> 00:02:47,082 And in the research center, we serve our 290 member organizations, our 50-some networks. 33 00:02:47,082 --> 00:02:48,406 I lose count. 34 00:02:48,406 --> 00:02:52,469 but so many people doing really, really good work around the world. 35 00:02:52,469 --> 00:02:58,272 And then in addition to that, my family and I live in Peru, where my husband leads a care reform coalition. 36 00:02:58,552 --> 00:03:00,194 So that's the gist of it. 37 00:03:00,194 --> 00:03:01,494 That's how I got here. 38 00:03:02,307 --> 00:03:05,647 Just a few little things, we'll get into a lot more detail. 39 00:03:05,647 --> 00:03:09,147 You also have three beautiful girls. 40 00:03:10,326 --> 00:03:16,247 And it's always been fun to get to know them as they serve everybody at the Sim Lab every year. 41 00:03:16,247 --> 00:03:19,507 Although this year it was a little different, but that's okay, that's okay. 42 00:03:19,507 --> 00:03:21,567 Next year I'm sure they'll be back. 43 00:03:22,707 --> 00:03:31,862 Alright, so the next thing we always love to hear from our guests is why do you think it's important for Christians to not only think about their own family and community, 44 00:03:31,862 --> 00:03:34,621 but consider the needs of people globally. 45 00:03:36,172 --> 00:03:42,847 Yeah, I think this is such an important conversation to have and I could spend the entire hour on it, I will not. 46 00:03:43,068 --> 00:03:45,670 But I think it's really, really critical. 47 00:03:45,670 --> 00:03:50,234 think, you know, there's several key points, but I'll just touch the surface on a few. 48 00:03:50,234 --> 00:03:57,200 So firstly, justice and mercy are tied to evangelism and discipleship. 49 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:04,806 And when we think about going and making disciples, which is a global conversation, a global concept, 50 00:04:04,886 --> 00:04:10,050 We also need to have a deep love and care for those who we are going to. 51 00:04:10,050 --> 00:04:16,494 So in that way, that's one of the angles of consideration for why to engage globally. 52 00:04:16,494 --> 00:04:24,600 But also when we think about caring for the needs of people globally, we think about the reality that we need each other. 53 00:04:24,780 --> 00:04:31,085 So the global church has different regions and different areas and different strengths. 54 00:04:31,085 --> 00:04:33,396 What church looks like in the West, 55 00:04:33,396 --> 00:04:36,627 is maybe different from majority world or the global south. 56 00:04:36,627 --> 00:04:44,211 What we have as assets and resources and tools and skills looks different. 57 00:04:44,211 --> 00:04:45,911 One's not better or worse. 58 00:04:45,911 --> 00:04:47,852 They're just different, right? 59 00:04:47,852 --> 00:04:51,814 But the reality is that it's often very complimentary and we need each other. 60 00:04:51,814 --> 00:05:02,278 So things that we have in excess in the West, like for example, we have more education and more financial resources than we've ever had in the history of the church. 61 00:05:02,422 --> 00:05:11,610 And oftentimes in the global south, the church really needs access to that knowledge, that training, those financial resources, and we can share, right? 62 00:05:11,610 --> 00:05:16,183 But it's not just about the West giving to the global south, global north to global south. 63 00:05:16,183 --> 00:05:18,665 It's really about the mutuality. 64 00:05:18,665 --> 00:05:23,429 We have things in the global north that we need from the global south too. 65 00:05:23,429 --> 00:05:32,446 There are examples in radical faith and deep commitment, sacrificial commitment to prayer. 66 00:05:32,987 --> 00:05:43,353 The testimony of the persecuted church are all really important in our faith and challenging us to live out our faith in ways that we couldn't without them. 67 00:05:43,454 --> 00:05:49,578 And then finally, I would just say that being involved in caring for the global church is really a gift. 68 00:05:49,819 --> 00:05:53,181 It's a gift that Jesus invites us into and he can do it without us. 69 00:05:53,181 --> 00:05:54,842 He does not need us. 70 00:05:54,862 --> 00:05:59,566 But it is something that he wants to give us because he cares for us and he wants us to have purpose in this world. 71 00:05:59,566 --> 00:06:00,406 So I think 72 00:06:00,406 --> 00:06:09,736 instead of thinking of it as just a pouring out, it's really this mutually beneficial relationship and it's something that you're going to miss out if you don't choose to 73 00:06:09,736 --> 00:06:11,638 engage and accept that invitation. 74 00:06:12,655 --> 00:06:13,108 that. 75 00:06:13,108 --> 00:06:22,632 well, I mean, you really you sound like you just got back from Lausanne, which I know I know is in fact the case. 76 00:06:22,632 --> 00:06:34,076 And I love that mutuality, you know, before we kind of I want to dig into what you guys are doing at the OVC Research Center, but even just kind of going off of what you just 77 00:06:34,076 --> 00:06:41,159 shared about mutuality, there's different assets, different strengths that are available in different 78 00:06:41,755 --> 00:06:44,977 areas or different parts of the body of Christ, right? 79 00:06:45,338 --> 00:06:50,763 How do you kind of see that done well specifically within global orphan care? 80 00:06:50,763 --> 00:07:00,611 Like the area that you're most invested in, I mean, we can kind of look at it from like a foreign aid, you have donor countries and recipient countries or whatever, but how do you 81 00:07:00,611 --> 00:07:01,551 see it done well? 82 00:07:01,551 --> 00:07:06,696 Kind of aside from just kind of the, you know, whatever that normative relationship looks like. 83 00:07:06,696 --> 00:07:10,006 How do you kind of see that come in orphan care? 84 00:07:10,006 --> 00:07:13,007 Yeah, so I think there are a lot of really good examples. 85 00:07:13,007 --> 00:07:21,629 think some of those examples tend to be quite small, at least to start, with a lot of humility and relationship. 86 00:07:21,629 --> 00:07:33,933 Everything is focused around relationship and listening and learning and really empowering and platforming local leaders. 87 00:07:33,933 --> 00:07:39,274 It's not empowering that we are giving them power, but empowering as we are reminding them. 88 00:07:39,284 --> 00:07:41,635 of their power and their rightful role. 89 00:07:41,856 --> 00:07:48,159 And the best people, like even in our work in Peru, the best people to care for Peruvian children are Peruvians. 90 00:07:48,159 --> 00:07:53,582 And so we are there to make sure that they have everything they need to step into their rightful role. 91 00:07:53,683 --> 00:08:02,918 And the church everywhere has, like I said, different assets, different abilities, but collectively when we're able to work together, we're able to give children and families 92 00:08:02,918 --> 00:08:04,729 all that they need and more. 93 00:08:04,869 --> 00:08:06,850 And I think when we... 94 00:08:06,850 --> 00:08:13,473 When we think about how to do this really well, the thing that comes to my mind is proceed slowly. 95 00:08:13,474 --> 00:08:16,135 It's very, very slow. 96 00:08:16,135 --> 00:08:19,717 Building trust-based relationships takes time. 97 00:08:19,717 --> 00:08:25,181 And for those of us who originated in the global north, we can be very time-bound. 98 00:08:25,181 --> 00:08:28,803 We can kind of rush in with our goals and objectives, which are good. 99 00:08:28,803 --> 00:08:31,264 It's good to have goals and objectives. 100 00:08:31,264 --> 00:08:35,046 But sometimes we need to take it down like six notches. 101 00:08:35,144 --> 00:08:45,471 and be willing to go at the pace of our local partners and really listening to them about what they see as both the needs and the assets of the local community and the local 102 00:08:45,471 --> 00:08:47,784 families that they're seeking to serve. 103 00:08:48,750 --> 00:08:49,660 Yeah, really well said. 104 00:08:49,660 --> 00:08:58,634 And one of the things that it reminds me even on that empowerment front, because and we had this conversation earlier this year with Gaston Warner, who is obviously working in 105 00:08:58,634 --> 00:09:01,455 the area of vulnerable children as well. 106 00:09:02,476 --> 00:09:04,577 There's a difference when we talk about empowerment. 107 00:09:04,577 --> 00:09:07,108 This is something that that that I've mentioned before. 108 00:09:07,108 --> 00:09:10,099 There's exogenous empowerment and endogenous. 109 00:09:10,099 --> 00:09:18,636 And basically what the differentiation is there are you saying, hey, we have the power and we're going to give it to you and 110 00:09:18,636 --> 00:09:22,259 which case you're really only reinforcing the power differential in the first place, right? 111 00:09:22,259 --> 00:09:25,882 Because it's basically working off of the premise that I have more power than you, right? 112 00:09:25,882 --> 00:09:31,446 Whereas endogenous empowerment is basically saying the power is already there. 113 00:09:31,446 --> 00:09:35,529 It might be latent within you, but you actually have the authority in this context. 114 00:09:35,529 --> 00:09:45,777 So anything that we do in quote unquote empowerment is really just going to be drawing out that dignity and that power and that strength that God has intrinsically put in you, 115 00:09:45,777 --> 00:09:48,732 especially as a local authority. 116 00:09:48,732 --> 00:09:49,884 within this community. 117 00:09:49,884 --> 00:09:52,898 So I really appreciate how you put that in. 118 00:09:52,898 --> 00:10:05,452 In some ways, I think our past conversations with Craig Greenfield has also kind of informed this because it can be fraught to work cross-culturally, but at the same time... 119 00:10:06,562 --> 00:10:08,233 God calls us into those spaces, right? 120 00:10:08,233 --> 00:10:09,525 He called you to Peru, right? 121 00:10:09,525 --> 00:10:12,177 He called, you know, Craig to Cambodia. 122 00:10:12,177 --> 00:10:14,939 He called, you know, people different places at different times. 123 00:10:14,939 --> 00:10:16,471 So that's really helpful. 124 00:10:16,471 --> 00:10:29,562 You know, when we think about orphan care, we talk and have over the years talked with a lot of different practitioners in different countries, doing different types of work. 125 00:10:29,802 --> 00:10:32,205 most of the time we're talking about practice, right? 126 00:10:32,205 --> 00:10:34,768 Most of the time we're saying, hey, what's going on in this area? 127 00:10:34,768 --> 00:10:35,999 What's your guys' model? 128 00:10:35,999 --> 00:10:37,110 All of that. 129 00:10:37,471 --> 00:10:47,462 At CAFO, at the OVC Research Center, you have a pretty unique role kind of within the broader orphan care, yeah, sector. 130 00:10:47,523 --> 00:10:49,685 Can you share with us about the work? 131 00:10:49,685 --> 00:10:53,768 at the research center and even kind of what led CAFO to establish the center. 132 00:10:53,768 --> 00:11:03,787 mean, what was it that was kind of missing in the field of orphan care that your guys as the research center is actually addressing? 133 00:11:04,620 --> 00:11:06,070 Yeah, it's a great question. 134 00:11:06,070 --> 00:11:19,357 I think it was a maturing in the global orphan care field where about a decade ago there was a lot of enthusiasm, a lot of inspiration, to some extent equipping, but largely 135 00:11:19,357 --> 00:11:23,540 Christians were becoming known for leading with their hearts instead of their heads. 136 00:11:23,540 --> 00:11:28,962 There was a lot of good intention and not a lot of great outcomes largely. 137 00:11:29,122 --> 00:11:37,347 So the etiology behind the research center was to really look at how do we connect research and practice in a meaningful way? 138 00:11:37,347 --> 00:11:44,361 How do we facilitate the cross-pollination of ideas between these often disparate sides of any field? 139 00:11:44,361 --> 00:11:57,046 There's often this gap between research and practice, and there can even be some level of distrust or animosity between the two groups, and we thought, no, none of this. 140 00:11:57,046 --> 00:12:07,951 What does it look like to really leverage the best available knowledge and apply it to frontline practice in a sustainable and locally informed way? 141 00:12:07,951 --> 00:12:10,502 So that was where we started. 142 00:12:10,502 --> 00:12:22,007 And then from there, we've just been able to continuously, by God's grace, develop original research and then also translate existing research into actionable tools for 143 00:12:22,007 --> 00:12:24,818 practitioners to be able to implement right where they are. 144 00:12:25,879 --> 00:12:28,570 And I think that that's an important distinction as well. 145 00:12:28,570 --> 00:12:38,354 When we talk, because it's applied research, which you can have certain types of research that just remains very theoretical, know, philosophical kind of up in the clouds. 146 00:12:38,354 --> 00:12:47,979 But what you guys are specifically focused on is how do we take, you know, what is already existing in terms of like the research knowledge base and making it something that is 147 00:12:47,979 --> 00:12:51,420 applied, that is applicable, that actually works in practice. 148 00:12:51,420 --> 00:12:55,854 And I know that this is something that we've talked about in the podcast for years is there is that gap. 149 00:12:55,854 --> 00:13:02,539 like you guys are doing a really good job of meeting that gap specifically within the orphan care space. 150 00:13:02,599 --> 00:13:14,068 So along that front, know, we are well aware that from studies that 151 00:13:14,572 --> 00:13:19,254 family-based care is the best potential placement for a child. 152 00:13:19,254 --> 00:13:22,025 You also need a menu of services, a continuum of care. 153 00:13:22,025 --> 00:13:25,267 All of these are things that we are well aware of. 154 00:13:25,267 --> 00:13:39,303 And we also know that in practice, it can be very challenging to institute those best practices or those theories or what development studies have shown us. 155 00:13:39,303 --> 00:13:44,488 So I would love, because that is a core part to kind of how you 156 00:13:44,488 --> 00:13:49,780 guys operate and really how CAFO as a whole operate which is to see kids within flourishing families. 157 00:13:49,780 --> 00:13:56,743 Can you walk us through some of the kind of key products and practices that have been developed at the center? 158 00:13:56,883 --> 00:14:05,656 I know you guys have a number of these so I'll just kind of throw them out one by one just share with us a little bit about what this is doing and how it's supporting practice so 159 00:14:05,656 --> 00:14:07,707 maybe we start with core elements. 160 00:14:08,172 --> 00:14:13,744 Yeah, I would love to, but I'd love to say something else first about what you just said, because I think it's so important. 161 00:14:14,504 --> 00:14:23,797 When it comes to applied research, I think it's really important for people to understand that there's a really significant difference between much of the research today, which 162 00:14:23,797 --> 00:14:31,550 might be with a really specific sample or in really specific conditions, and it is simply not applicable. 163 00:14:31,550 --> 00:14:33,290 And most practitioners... 164 00:14:33,290 --> 00:14:35,471 are very bright, they're motivated. 165 00:14:35,471 --> 00:14:39,093 You don't go into this field because you want an easy job. 166 00:14:39,093 --> 00:14:49,837 But at the same time, they do not have the time to digest hundreds of 50 page research articles and then try to figure out what tiny seed in there might be applicable to what 167 00:14:49,837 --> 00:14:50,537 they're doing. 168 00:14:50,537 --> 00:14:52,398 So that's essentially what applied research is. 169 00:14:52,398 --> 00:15:00,621 It's really figuring out what are the types of research that can be most applicable and then answering those questions that kind of matter most to practitioners. 170 00:15:00,962 --> 00:15:01,742 And... 171 00:15:01,902 --> 00:15:05,162 You know, when you're talking about, what can people do then? 172 00:15:05,162 --> 00:15:12,862 I think the one thing that we try to emphasize in everything that we do is helping people move to their one next step. 173 00:15:12,882 --> 00:15:26,242 Every practitioner can identify with the feeling of reading a book or going to a conference or getting some resources online and digesting them and then feeling like, I 174 00:15:26,242 --> 00:15:28,620 have 27 things on my list. 175 00:15:28,620 --> 00:15:30,041 and I will get to them on Monday. 176 00:15:30,041 --> 00:15:33,392 And of course Monday comes and there's a crisis and it never happens. 177 00:15:33,392 --> 00:15:36,393 And so we can consistently feel overwhelmed. 178 00:15:36,393 --> 00:15:38,514 We feel under qualified. 179 00:15:38,514 --> 00:15:40,495 We feel like we're failing, right? 180 00:15:40,495 --> 00:15:46,758 And so instead what we're trying to help people understand is there is a body of research and best practices. 181 00:15:46,758 --> 00:15:57,232 You don't need to reinvent the wheel, but what we encourage people to do is just take that one next step, make one really good habit, make one tiny change and then do one more and 182 00:15:57,232 --> 00:15:58,132 one more. 183 00:15:58,286 --> 00:16:07,726 And our Core Elements program is based around that idea where we distilled 1,200 pages of global guidance and research. 184 00:16:07,726 --> 00:16:16,306 And from there, we gathered 40 practitioners, 40 organizations to digest a draft. 185 00:16:16,466 --> 00:16:19,446 And essentially what we came up with is a self-assessment. 186 00:16:19,446 --> 00:16:24,406 This self-assessment is based on conditional logic, meaning it's slightly different for every person. 187 00:16:24,406 --> 00:16:27,350 It's kind of like Strengths Finders is how I would describe it. 188 00:16:27,350 --> 00:16:39,014 And then you get this customized automated report that helps you to understand where do you stack up on 21 key areas of care for vulnerable children. 189 00:16:39,014 --> 00:16:50,977 And then from there, it points you to key resources, courses that will help you get from zero competency to a basic level of competency within that one learning experience. 190 00:16:50,977 --> 00:16:53,111 So that's what our core elements looks like. 191 00:16:53,111 --> 00:16:53,871 you 192 00:16:53,941 --> 00:16:54,681 That's really good. 193 00:16:54,681 --> 00:17:01,144 And I think you guys are ahead of the curve in some of these kind of learning and education things. 194 00:17:01,144 --> 00:17:09,698 I know we recently had a conversation just kind of looking at education in general, higher ed in particular. 195 00:17:10,739 --> 00:17:21,364 But what you what you just described there is really kind of a curtailed approach to to development of an organization and advancement of a practice. 196 00:17:21,804 --> 00:17:23,865 So I think that that's that's really valuable. 197 00:17:23,865 --> 00:17:28,968 and with as we're talking with Nicole today, Dr. 198 00:17:28,968 --> 00:17:35,383 Wilkie, as I might call her, we will be linking all of these things in the show notes. 199 00:17:35,383 --> 00:17:44,959 So if you hear something about Core Elements or the books that we'll be discussing here in a moment, whatever it is, please just, our listeners can definitely check out the show 200 00:17:44,959 --> 00:17:52,074 notes where you guys can get directly connected to resources that Nicole and her team at CAFO are developing. 201 00:17:52,074 --> 00:17:54,285 So Core Elements is huge. 202 00:17:55,827 --> 00:18:05,504 One of the big things and something that actually Phil and I have also been able to collaborate with you on is moving towards family-based solutions, which can look like a 203 00:18:05,504 --> 00:18:13,340 few different things, including the intensive that just took place at the summit not too long ago. 204 00:18:13,340 --> 00:18:17,983 Can you kind of talk with us about what you guys are doing within that space and some of those initiatives? 205 00:18:18,936 --> 00:18:19,566 Absolutely. 206 00:18:19,566 --> 00:18:28,914 So we know, as you mentioned from research, that the ideal place for a child to thrive is within the context of a healthy family. 207 00:18:28,914 --> 00:18:30,665 We know that from scripture as well, right? 208 00:18:30,665 --> 00:18:33,497 So we can be pretty certain of this. 209 00:18:33,618 --> 00:18:36,580 The reality can be more complex. 210 00:18:36,741 --> 00:18:43,726 And for many organizations, they've ended up caring for children in a residential setting. 211 00:18:44,006 --> 00:18:48,910 And then after the fact, they find out, wait, this might not be the ideal. 212 00:18:49,292 --> 00:19:01,090 So what we see from our end working with organizations is that residential care organizations are part of the solution for getting children into families and for caring 213 00:19:01,090 --> 00:19:02,591 well for families. 214 00:19:02,711 --> 00:19:08,415 We want to see all of them given the opportunity to move in the direction of supporting children and families. 215 00:19:08,415 --> 00:19:12,157 And that can look a wide variety of ways, right? 216 00:19:12,618 --> 00:19:15,079 There's no one size fits all approach. 217 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,850 So one of the things we do in the events that 218 00:19:18,850 --> 00:19:24,193 that you all were part of is our Moving Towards Family Solutions Simulation Lab. 219 00:19:24,193 --> 00:19:33,819 It's a one-day event where we get to immerse ourselves in a case study and walk through the process of transition. 220 00:19:33,819 --> 00:19:43,834 No longer do we have to think, well, what about this situation, or what about this child, or this family, and kind of get off track because we're so emotionally invested in our own 221 00:19:43,834 --> 00:19:44,325 programs. 222 00:19:44,325 --> 00:19:47,030 But instead, we get to just learn the process. 223 00:19:47,030 --> 00:19:58,105 And then from there, we get to connect with amazing table coaches like yourselves to learn more about what's possible where we are and to start to make those steps towards family 224 00:19:58,105 --> 00:19:59,195 solutions for children. 225 00:19:59,195 --> 00:20:01,396 So we're doing a number of things with that. 226 00:20:01,396 --> 00:20:09,740 We also have actually created a course, an online course for those that can't be there in person or can't find an event near them. 227 00:20:09,740 --> 00:20:13,001 It takes a little bit of doing to get the right situation for that. 228 00:20:13,001 --> 00:20:15,122 So it's not always possible and 229 00:20:15,131 --> 00:20:17,785 We just piloted that this year and it went really well. 230 00:20:17,785 --> 00:20:19,913 So lots of options for people. 231 00:20:20,617 --> 00:20:21,578 That is good. 232 00:20:21,578 --> 00:20:24,429 again, these things will be linked in the show notes. 233 00:20:24,429 --> 00:20:35,623 So the last one, and I was also privileged that you guys even gave me a cool blue hat, is the Care Transition Accelerator Academy. 234 00:20:35,984 --> 00:20:44,918 This is something that I'm really passionate about and something that I've invested time in my career is to say, all right, what does this look like in a given context, right? 235 00:20:44,918 --> 00:20:50,653 Because how it looks in Peru is going to look different from Tanzania, where I was, or it's going to look different from the Middle East or different 236 00:20:50,653 --> 00:20:52,444 fill in the blank country. 237 00:20:52,745 --> 00:21:02,782 And yet, I mean, I work in child welfare in Washington state right now, and there's areas that need to be developed, right, in terms of appropriate care. 238 00:21:02,782 --> 00:21:14,381 So you guys develop CTAA to start to address some of those gaps and also to kind of increase services in other areas. 239 00:21:14,381 --> 00:21:18,083 you talk with us a little bit about the Accelerator Academy as well? 240 00:21:18,764 --> 00:21:19,994 Absolutely. 241 00:21:19,994 --> 00:21:26,339 I unequivocally believe that the best return on investment is working with local leaders. 242 00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:35,566 As somebody who's lived cross-culturally, I can tell you after living seven years in Peru, I've lived there just long enough to start to know what I don't know. 243 00:21:36,307 --> 00:21:40,630 And that's typical of cross-cultural engagement. 244 00:21:40,850 --> 00:21:46,514 What that means is that there are a lot of variables that can be taken out when we are working with local leaders. 245 00:21:46,676 --> 00:21:53,191 And yet sometimes local leaders have not been able to access the same sources of education or support that we have. 246 00:21:53,191 --> 00:22:01,458 So the CTA serves to remove that barrier by bringing local leaders who are already super invested in global child welfare. 247 00:22:02,139 --> 00:22:03,650 They are already experienced. 248 00:22:03,650 --> 00:22:07,703 They've often worked in multiple organizations doing this work. 249 00:22:07,703 --> 00:22:16,448 Often they've worked in an organization that has transitioned from residential to family care and they want to walk alongside other or other organizations. 250 00:22:16,448 --> 00:22:19,479 in the process of care transition. 251 00:22:19,500 --> 00:22:25,683 They just need some coaching, some support, some equipping, and that's what we provide. 252 00:22:25,683 --> 00:22:26,904 It's a two-year program. 253 00:22:26,904 --> 00:22:34,038 The first year is weekly two-hour classes that are preceded by several hours of homework. 254 00:22:34,038 --> 00:22:35,988 It's quite an intensive program. 255 00:22:36,209 --> 00:22:40,691 And then the second year is a mentored practicum for an entire year. 256 00:22:40,691 --> 00:22:45,952 So they will find an organization that is interested in 257 00:22:45,952 --> 00:22:55,896 in transitioning to family care, maybe in the process of transition, that they can walk alongside under the supervision and advisement of a faculty mentor. 258 00:22:55,896 --> 00:23:01,068 So somebody that is investing with a lecture and Q &A like you are, Brandon. 259 00:23:01,068 --> 00:23:12,943 So we are able to see people who have all the right motivations, so many skills, so many assets that they bring, able to be equipped and then live it out in the real world, 260 00:23:12,943 --> 00:23:15,594 gaining some confidence and some competence. 261 00:23:15,959 --> 00:23:25,224 and then unleash them to see organization after organization be supported to transition to family care. 262 00:23:27,812 --> 00:23:29,113 I love all that stuff. 263 00:23:29,113 --> 00:23:43,499 mean, I've been able to be a part of the sim labs for several years now getting to MC that and kind of be a part of it that way and see this, amazing conversations that are able to 264 00:23:43,499 --> 00:23:50,382 be had from with the incredible coaches, the incredible people coming in from all over the world. 265 00:23:51,142 --> 00:23:52,653 It's been, it's been amazing. 266 00:23:52,653 --> 00:23:57,939 And to, know all the work that you've put in behind the scenes to get that, to get that going every year. 267 00:23:57,939 --> 00:23:58,709 It's just awesome. 268 00:23:58,709 --> 00:24:04,024 So I'm just grateful for all that you've put into this All these different things man. 269 00:24:04,024 --> 00:24:05,425 What what a what a great thing. 270 00:24:05,425 --> 00:24:11,810 So we're gonna transition now though, cuz you got another great thing that you just put out with dr. 271 00:24:11,810 --> 00:24:16,233 Amanda Howard And it's this overcoming book here. 272 00:24:16,233 --> 00:24:25,780 I got a little bookmark in it because I use this book at the conference or at the summit with the talk on the 273 00:24:25,895 --> 00:24:30,986 building resilience through or with vulnerable children through sport, play and fitness. 274 00:24:30,986 --> 00:24:37,148 it applied like every one of the principles was like, yes, you can do this through sports 100%. 275 00:24:37,148 --> 00:24:38,869 And it's actually what sports is all about. 276 00:24:38,869 --> 00:24:39,109 Right. 277 00:24:39,109 --> 00:24:42,990 And we talk about resilience all the time on my soccer podcast, totally different, totally different thing. 278 00:24:42,990 --> 00:24:51,052 But it's so cool to see how not only these principles work in the context of vulnerable children and families, but in literally everything. 279 00:24:51,052 --> 00:24:51,392 Right. 280 00:24:51,392 --> 00:24:55,323 And so I love the subtitle, what scripture and science say about resilience. 281 00:24:55,323 --> 00:25:05,944 It reminds me of conversation we had with Kurt Thompson talking about how science will never catch up to scripture, but it can confirm scripture. 282 00:25:06,065 --> 00:25:10,440 And so that's something that I love that this book has done that so well. 283 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:17,537 So can you just talk with our audience just about what motivated you and Mandy to write this book? 284 00:25:19,106 --> 00:25:20,391 Yeah, it's a good question. 285 00:25:20,391 --> 00:25:36,498 I would say it was a little bit of hope, a little bit of despair, and some theology where we were seeing conversations move in a direction that seemed pretty maladaptive. 286 00:25:37,179 --> 00:25:42,022 And also we were not seeing good fruit from those conversations. 287 00:25:42,022 --> 00:25:48,492 So when you start to look at science and theology, you're seeing what scripture says, you're seeing what science says. 288 00:25:48,492 --> 00:25:54,104 And it's just not lining up with the typical rhetoric of the day. 289 00:25:54,625 --> 00:26:07,360 So as we begin to talk about it and consider and have a lot of conversations with people in our audience, we saw that countless times and we'd seen this personally, people who 290 00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:15,498 should not overcome did and people who would you would expect to maybe didn't succeed as well as. 291 00:26:15,498 --> 00:26:16,689 as one would expect. 292 00:26:16,689 --> 00:26:18,219 So the question is why? 293 00:26:18,219 --> 00:26:24,782 We have these overcomers, we have these outliers, and yet still the conversation is largely negative. 294 00:26:24,782 --> 00:26:26,263 It's largely deterministic. 295 00:26:26,263 --> 00:26:28,824 You've experienced trauma, it's not going to go well for you. 296 00:26:28,824 --> 00:26:39,388 To some extent, there was certain research that was even saying that in certain groups and from certain perspectives. 297 00:26:39,388 --> 00:26:43,978 But what we saw in scripture is that we're more than conquerors and we're being transformed. 298 00:26:43,978 --> 00:26:47,844 all of these truths that we wanted to draw out and re-emphasize. 299 00:26:47,844 --> 00:26:57,690 It's not necessarily that they're new truths, it's that they're reminder truths, things that we know that we need to keep at the front of our minds when we're caring for kids who 300 00:26:57,690 --> 00:26:59,362 have experienced difficult things. 301 00:27:00,545 --> 00:27:01,025 That's good. 302 00:27:01,025 --> 00:27:01,735 I love that. 303 00:27:01,735 --> 00:27:02,525 I love that. 304 00:27:02,525 --> 00:27:13,115 And I think what you said, and we'll get into this more, I'm sure, is just some that we expected to overcome did not, and others that there's no way, right? 305 00:27:13,115 --> 00:27:14,345 There's no way. 306 00:27:14,345 --> 00:27:16,675 there's more to it, right? 307 00:27:16,675 --> 00:27:23,005 And so, you know, we do hear lot about trauma nowadays, and maybe even we talk about it too much, right? 308 00:27:23,005 --> 00:27:27,145 If you talk about something too much, maybe sometimes people that they kind of create things, right? 309 00:27:27,145 --> 00:27:30,343 But I don't think that's going on in a lot of the people we're talking about. 310 00:27:30,510 --> 00:27:38,352 on this show, but do feel the term is overused or is it good for us to be talking about trauma this much and what's missing from the conversation? 311 00:27:40,226 --> 00:27:44,947 Well, that's a complicated question, but yes, it's the right question to ask, I think. 312 00:27:44,947 --> 00:27:53,750 I mean, as a former therapist, I dealt with trauma all the time, and I can confirm it is 100 % real, it is 100 % serious. 313 00:27:53,910 --> 00:27:55,831 It's not something that we should take lightly. 314 00:27:55,831 --> 00:28:01,032 I'll also say that the term, especially in the global north, has often been watered down. 315 00:28:01,933 --> 00:28:06,914 You see it on social media, you see the teenager that comes in and says, 316 00:28:06,914 --> 00:28:10,897 My favorite restaurant didn't have white meat and I was traumatized. 317 00:28:11,178 --> 00:28:15,761 That would be an inappropriate understanding of what this term means. 318 00:28:15,862 --> 00:28:20,976 Certainly trauma doesn't apply to every situation. 319 00:28:20,976 --> 00:28:30,114 And certainly some of the ways that we've heard trauma invoked within larger conversations have also been inappropriate. 320 00:28:30,114 --> 00:28:31,934 Trauma doesn't define you. 321 00:28:31,934 --> 00:28:34,338 It doesn't determine your future. 322 00:28:34,410 --> 00:28:38,272 it's not an excuse, it's not a dictator, it's not a badge of honor. 323 00:28:38,272 --> 00:28:49,936 There are all these ways that it's been kind of manipulated and used for different stories or different gains, but that's not really what it is. 324 00:28:49,936 --> 00:28:57,640 Now if we were talking about trauma through the lens of truth, I would be really happy that we're having this many conversations, but you know if we're looking at the truth of 325 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:04,002 science and the truth of scripture and where those converge, we're seeing really good things actually where 326 00:29:04,620 --> 00:29:14,417 we see that there is trauma in many parts of the world and all throughout the world, but when handled rightly, it is not the end of the story. 327 00:29:14,417 --> 00:29:21,722 And we talk about in the book how it can be one footnote in the epic novel God Has For Your Child. 328 00:29:21,722 --> 00:29:25,985 And I think that's so important to remember that it's a piece of the story. 329 00:29:25,985 --> 00:29:29,107 It doesn't inform everything else that comes after. 330 00:29:29,107 --> 00:29:33,110 It doesn't dictate the future, even if it is the present. 331 00:29:33,388 --> 00:29:42,570 I think it's important to remember that when handled rightly, we can see children who experience those early adversities, those really hard early things, actually becoming 332 00:29:42,570 --> 00:29:45,614 overcomers, conquering those difficult things. 333 00:29:46,645 --> 00:29:47,155 I love that. 334 00:29:47,155 --> 00:29:52,598 I love that, that, defining the term, right? 335 00:29:52,598 --> 00:30:01,033 Like, I mean, to make sure that we're talking about the right thing and, because so many words, so many terms, and we talk about that, so many terms are overused in society, 336 00:30:01,033 --> 00:30:01,743 right? 337 00:30:01,743 --> 00:30:07,085 People talk about, you know, gospel truth and they use that in like, you know, it's gospel truth. 338 00:30:07,085 --> 00:30:09,178 They're going back to the food that this pizza is the best. 339 00:30:09,178 --> 00:30:15,767 So, you know, it's like, no, no, you can't, when you start overusing this thing, it ceases to mean what it. 340 00:30:15,767 --> 00:30:16,538 means, right? 341 00:30:16,538 --> 00:30:19,589 You know, same thing with, you know, justice, right? 342 00:30:19,589 --> 00:30:25,643 Like even, even when we talked about the title for this part, it's like justice means so much to different people. 343 00:30:25,643 --> 00:30:28,215 What is the true justice, which is what we want to be talking about. 344 00:30:28,215 --> 00:30:33,929 And like, and so to say we don't want to throw words out because they're misused, we want to use them better. 345 00:30:33,929 --> 00:30:39,748 And we want to make sure that we can help people understand what we actually mean by this term. 346 00:30:39,748 --> 00:30:49,668 that is being overused in particularly here in the in the West because of social media, because of people's platforms that don't have expertise, they don't have experience, they 347 00:30:49,668 --> 00:30:53,688 just are throwing stuff out there and we got to be careful with that. 348 00:30:53,688 --> 00:31:04,488 that's why you know books like this are so good to be able to get deeper into these things and so how does early adversity turn into trauma kind of going you know to the next step 349 00:31:04,488 --> 00:31:07,570 and why are some children affected more than others? 350 00:31:08,534 --> 00:31:09,745 Yeah, it's a good question. 351 00:31:09,745 --> 00:31:21,825 So why early adversity turns into trauma is actually an instantaneous and subconscious process that is not a decision. 352 00:31:21,825 --> 00:31:23,087 We want to make it really clear. 353 00:31:23,087 --> 00:31:34,587 It's not that a child decided, I'm going to be traumatized or I'm just not going to try that hard or whatever other type of stigma might be around trauma. 354 00:31:34,587 --> 00:31:36,498 Trauma happens and 355 00:31:36,608 --> 00:31:47,801 It's interesting something, occurrence, an experience, even a condition that a child has might mean trauma for one child and not for the next. 356 00:31:48,061 --> 00:31:57,364 And that isn't to say that the one that is traumatized is necessarily weak or less than, to just be really clear. 357 00:31:57,364 --> 00:31:59,194 It's all about perception. 358 00:31:59,194 --> 00:32:06,530 So what is happening is there is a perception of threat to life or limb of either the individual or somebody that they're 359 00:32:06,530 --> 00:32:09,211 very close to somebody that they love very much. 360 00:32:09,632 --> 00:32:12,835 And that's how adversity turns into trauma. 361 00:32:12,835 --> 00:32:24,192 And the good news is that adversity turning into trauma does not necessarily mean, again, that this is some sort of label stamped on you, this is going to be your future, but it 362 00:32:24,192 --> 00:32:35,330 does mean that we need to work with that and we need to be conscious of that, we need to address it, we need to access the resources and supports. 363 00:32:35,422 --> 00:32:40,688 the professionals that can help guide us in that process as we work with our children. 364 00:32:40,688 --> 00:32:46,554 But it is something that will just occur in some kids and not in others. 365 00:32:49,265 --> 00:33:00,815 Yeah, and kind of go to the next thing that I see is with that, it's going back to what you said earlier about some overcome, others don't. 366 00:33:00,815 --> 00:33:02,967 And then you say it occurs in some, not others. 367 00:33:02,967 --> 00:33:10,093 And we have this trauma, have this kind of taking it to the resilience part of this conversation. 368 00:33:10,093 --> 00:33:17,399 So you share in the book that resilience is not a fixed trait, but rather can be formed, which goes to... 369 00:33:17,688 --> 00:33:21,736 some overcoming, some not, some experiencing, some not. 370 00:33:21,898 --> 00:33:27,681 But what are the keys to building resilience and really overcoming the trauma? 371 00:33:28,576 --> 00:33:32,048 Yeah, well, firstly, I just think this is so exciting, right? 372 00:33:32,048 --> 00:33:42,334 Like if somebody is gonna take anything away from this takeaway that resilience can be formed, it can be formed at any age, it can be formed in any individual, it can be formed 373 00:33:42,334 --> 00:33:45,755 at, you before or after a really difficult thing. 374 00:33:45,755 --> 00:33:50,077 It is very malleable and usable and actionable. 375 00:33:50,918 --> 00:33:58,176 And I just think it's one of the best pieces of news that we have right now. 376 00:33:58,176 --> 00:34:01,607 and care for vulnerable kids is the concept of resilience. 377 00:34:02,388 --> 00:34:07,630 In terms of how it's formed, so it's essentially a formula, all right? 378 00:34:07,630 --> 00:34:16,163 We need some kind of challenge and we combine that with protective factors and that makes resilience, okay? 379 00:34:16,163 --> 00:34:23,386 So the cool thing about this, the interesting thing, the counterintuitive thing, cool to me as a researcher, right? 380 00:34:23,386 --> 00:34:26,837 Not necessarily fun to experience, but we need challenge. 381 00:34:26,918 --> 00:34:27,818 So. 382 00:34:27,862 --> 00:34:32,935 our kids who have experienced early adversity actually have a leg up on building resilience. 383 00:34:32,935 --> 00:34:35,786 Now we wouldn't want them to experience early adversity. 384 00:34:35,786 --> 00:34:46,933 It's not like, you know, like I have a toddler and oftentimes with parents of toddlers, you'll see the child like digging their hand into the dirt of your plant and eating it and 385 00:34:46,933 --> 00:34:49,794 you just kind of laugh it off and you go, they're building their immunity. 386 00:34:49,794 --> 00:34:51,295 They're building resilience. 387 00:34:51,495 --> 00:34:54,327 Yes, we don't laugh off early adversity, right? 388 00:34:54,327 --> 00:34:56,416 Like to be clear, this is not. 389 00:34:56,416 --> 00:35:02,451 one of those things, but it is something where we can trust that even what the enemy meant for evil, God can use for good. 390 00:35:02,451 --> 00:35:04,342 And we see that on a regular basis. 391 00:35:04,342 --> 00:35:10,416 People that have experienced really hard early things who go on to do great things in life, right? 392 00:35:10,457 --> 00:35:11,738 So you need that early challenge. 393 00:35:11,738 --> 00:35:17,542 Now the good news for those of you parents who might be like, well, maybe my kids haven't experienced early adversity. 394 00:35:17,542 --> 00:35:19,303 Does that mean they won't be resilient? 395 00:35:19,303 --> 00:35:23,366 No, there are other types of challenge like sports that you brought up, Phil. 396 00:35:23,998 --> 00:35:28,181 Or like one of the things that we do with our girls is we go on really big hikes. 397 00:35:28,181 --> 00:35:30,830 So they are 10, 7, and 3. 398 00:35:30,830 --> 00:35:33,004 To be fair, the 3-year-old doesn't hike yet. 399 00:35:33,025 --> 00:35:37,728 But we just did a 15,000 foot 5-day hike with them. 400 00:35:37,728 --> 00:35:40,029 And that was challenging, right? 401 00:35:40,029 --> 00:35:40,750 That's hard. 402 00:35:40,750 --> 00:35:42,311 But they're building their resilience. 403 00:35:42,311 --> 00:35:51,977 And then when they get home and they're like, I'm struggling with my division facts, it puts it in perspective when you're like, please, you just hiked 15,000 feet. 404 00:35:52,147 --> 00:35:53,142 Mm-hmm. 405 00:35:53,142 --> 00:35:54,583 I think you can handle this. 406 00:35:54,583 --> 00:35:58,154 So you have to start with that challenge piece. 407 00:35:58,154 --> 00:36:01,546 That's like the raw material of building resilience. 408 00:36:01,546 --> 00:36:03,967 And then we combine it with protective factors. 409 00:36:03,967 --> 00:36:08,128 And of course, that's kind of a jargony term, like what's a protective factor. 410 00:36:08,408 --> 00:36:14,011 But it's essentially the good things in a child's life that support them. 411 00:36:14,011 --> 00:36:22,188 things like individual child protective factors like optimism or a focus on the future or a belief 412 00:36:22,188 --> 00:36:30,912 that they can overcome something or even things like being able to say that I have extracurricular activities or I do really well in school. 413 00:36:30,912 --> 00:36:32,473 Those are protective factors. 414 00:36:32,473 --> 00:36:37,818 It's something I think about myself other than this hard thing that I've experienced. 415 00:36:37,818 --> 00:36:43,688 And then there are family protective factors like strong family relationships or good communication. 416 00:36:43,688 --> 00:36:48,330 Even the idea of like not being in poverty and being able to have... 417 00:36:48,394 --> 00:36:50,515 basic needs covered within your family. 418 00:36:50,515 --> 00:36:56,036 That's a family protective factor, good attachment, all family protective factors. 419 00:36:56,036 --> 00:37:07,179 And then when we get to the community level, there are much larger systems ideas that can be protective factors like access to medical care, good education, a stable government, 420 00:37:07,179 --> 00:37:12,401 not being in geopolitical conflict, not being a child that's displaced. 421 00:37:12,801 --> 00:37:15,181 Things like that can also be protective factors. 422 00:37:15,181 --> 00:37:17,482 And when we think about, well, 423 00:37:17,514 --> 00:37:19,795 how do we use these or what does it look like? 424 00:37:19,795 --> 00:37:26,447 What's most helpful for me when I was first conceptualizing this is thinking of them as a balance, okay? 425 00:37:26,447 --> 00:37:32,759 Like the old school where you're balancing how much something weighs and the money. 426 00:37:32,759 --> 00:37:43,446 Okay, so the thing is you want to outbalance the adversity that a child has experienced by loading up the protective factor side. 427 00:37:43,446 --> 00:37:54,973 so that this early adversity, this trauma potentially that they've experienced, again, becomes that footnote in that epic novel, where it's one piece, but it's not the dominant 428 00:37:54,973 --> 00:37:55,413 piece. 429 00:37:55,413 --> 00:37:58,335 It's not the dominant conversation in their lives. 430 00:37:58,335 --> 00:38:02,547 It is something that is there and that we acknowledge, but not that we focus on. 431 00:38:02,547 --> 00:38:04,578 Does that all make sense? 432 00:38:05,913 --> 00:38:07,674 Yeah, absolutely. 433 00:38:07,674 --> 00:38:12,757 I, couple things that are related to that, right? 434 00:38:12,757 --> 00:38:20,421 And when you're talking about the challenge, what I often say is, know, the best things in life happen on just the other side of comfortable, right? 435 00:38:20,421 --> 00:38:28,346 So you have that challenge that's not too far out of comfortable, because if it's too far out of comfortable, they're not gonna do it, and it's just too much, and they probably 436 00:38:28,346 --> 00:38:29,166 shouldn't do it. 437 00:38:29,166 --> 00:38:33,338 You know, that old, you know, let them fall off their bike, don't let them ride off the cliff, right? 438 00:38:33,338 --> 00:38:34,893 So that, that... 439 00:38:34,893 --> 00:38:36,443 That same with hiking, right? 440 00:38:36,443 --> 00:38:40,533 Like, do the hike, but don't take them on half dome without the cables. 441 00:38:40,533 --> 00:38:50,313 Like, these are things that you're smart, you're wise with it, and, you know, and with the protective factors with the bike, gonna keep that analogy going. 442 00:38:50,313 --> 00:38:51,513 You're gonna have training wheels. 443 00:38:51,513 --> 00:38:54,233 You're gonna be walking alongside them at first. 444 00:38:54,233 --> 00:38:55,893 But at some point, they gotta fall. 445 00:38:55,893 --> 00:39:02,633 If they don't fall, they're not gonna really learn how to ride a bike, you know, unless they're extremely coordinated at a young age, which happened with one of my children. 446 00:39:02,633 --> 00:39:02,945 But... 447 00:39:02,945 --> 00:39:05,406 That was a freaky thing that I know. 448 00:39:05,406 --> 00:39:09,828 But unfortunately it was the first child, so the rest of them fell more than they probably should have. 449 00:39:09,828 --> 00:39:12,048 But that's a whole different conversation. 450 00:39:12,549 --> 00:39:15,500 But that idea, is that pretty accurate there? 451 00:39:15,500 --> 00:39:23,253 I'm just trying to kind of bring it down to a level that most people would really get, because they've done it at some point if they have kids, right? 452 00:39:23,432 --> 00:39:24,452 Absolutely. 453 00:39:24,452 --> 00:39:28,703 The protective factors are those things that add cushion, right? 454 00:39:28,703 --> 00:39:36,916 So the more of those protective factors you have, it is like training wheels or I mean, think of the relational protective factors. 455 00:39:36,916 --> 00:39:48,629 If you grew up in a relatively healthy family, you know that if you fall on your bike carrying this analogy, you know where you can go. 456 00:39:48,629 --> 00:39:50,409 You know who to look to. 457 00:39:50,409 --> 00:39:53,304 You know, you're looking for mom's face to say, 458 00:39:53,304 --> 00:39:58,378 hey, it's okay, or if she's panicking, you know to panic, right? 459 00:39:58,378 --> 00:40:08,076 So it's about having that cushion, those pieces of the world that help you know where you are and help you know that you're okay. 460 00:40:14,326 --> 00:40:18,158 Yeah, that's really, really helpful. 461 00:40:18,438 --> 00:40:31,344 I'm thinking through because as you guys make these, as we're talking through this, there's a serious practical aspect to the book as well, including some frameworks. 462 00:40:31,344 --> 00:40:39,898 can you maybe, I mean, you don't have to get into them, all of them, I know, because there's quite a few of them, but there are these data-informed practices that specifically 463 00:40:39,898 --> 00:40:43,830 help us build resilience in children that we're interacting with. 464 00:40:44,300 --> 00:40:50,615 kind of share with us maybe some of the more salient ones that would be helpful for our conversation. 465 00:40:51,102 --> 00:40:51,832 Absolutely. 466 00:40:51,832 --> 00:40:56,403 yeah, about half of the book is practical frameworks. 467 00:40:56,403 --> 00:41:01,525 I think those are really important for busy parents and professionals. 468 00:41:01,525 --> 00:41:08,517 None of us have the desire to sit there and kind of need to digest, well, how does this apply to my life? 469 00:41:08,517 --> 00:41:09,407 How can I use that? 470 00:41:09,407 --> 00:41:12,508 And so we've done that for our readers. 471 00:41:12,548 --> 00:41:19,050 We have to take that guesswork out of the research and make it really actionable. 472 00:41:20,812 --> 00:41:24,885 There are nine, I'll just kind of hit on two if that's okay. 473 00:41:24,885 --> 00:41:29,148 And again, we're encouraging people to take it one step at a time. 474 00:41:29,148 --> 00:41:30,989 What's your one next step? 475 00:41:30,989 --> 00:41:34,391 You're not going to make nine habit changes at once. 476 00:41:34,552 --> 00:41:35,923 That's just not going to happen. 477 00:41:35,923 --> 00:41:46,740 So what are the tiny repeatable habits or steps or changes that you can make across time that overall over time will build up into something really great. 478 00:41:46,740 --> 00:41:49,208 So, you know, one of them, 479 00:41:49,208 --> 00:41:53,220 that we have is related to watching what you say and think. 480 00:41:53,381 --> 00:42:00,986 So how many times have you heard somebody say something like, that's my trauma kid, that's my ADHD kid. 481 00:42:00,986 --> 00:42:13,935 This kind of thing happens all the time and we don't mean anything negative by it, but what happens when our kids hear us and they're being defined by this label? 482 00:42:13,935 --> 00:42:15,956 That's really hard for anyone. 483 00:42:15,956 --> 00:42:18,850 And especially for a little person who maybe doesn't really 484 00:42:18,850 --> 00:42:22,571 know what their identity is, they're trying to figure out their place in the world. 485 00:42:23,452 --> 00:42:28,655 It can be so tempting to express those things or to even think those things. 486 00:42:28,655 --> 00:42:33,777 And unfortunately, it's not sufficient to just not say it, right? 487 00:42:33,777 --> 00:42:44,822 Because what happens when we even think it is that it comes out in our behaviors, it comes out in our tone, in our body language. 488 00:42:44,822 --> 00:42:55,670 And so it's really important to take every thought captive, as scripture says, but in this instance about our children, about how they're behaving, about how they're expressing 489 00:42:55,670 --> 00:43:05,318 themselves, about how maybe frustrated we are because before they were with us, life was one way and after they came to our home, it's this other way. 490 00:43:05,318 --> 00:43:07,849 So really taking those thoughts captive. 491 00:43:07,849 --> 00:43:11,602 And we give some practical steps in there, one of which, 492 00:43:12,086 --> 00:43:14,217 is simply memorizing scripture. 493 00:43:14,217 --> 00:43:27,440 So we've identified and included in the book several identity-based scriptures that we can memorize with our children and help them to create those neural pathways around their 494 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:27,970 identity. 495 00:43:27,970 --> 00:43:28,831 This is who I am. 496 00:43:28,831 --> 00:43:29,751 This is God. 497 00:43:29,751 --> 00:43:32,092 This is who God says I am. 498 00:43:32,092 --> 00:43:34,092 He is the author of truth. 499 00:43:34,272 --> 00:43:35,866 I'm made in his image. 500 00:43:35,866 --> 00:43:40,512 And really helping those to be the thoughts that are going through their heads 501 00:43:40,512 --> 00:43:49,168 and going through your head as a parent or a caregiver that my child is made in God's image, not my child is defined by their trauma. 502 00:43:49,168 --> 00:43:51,900 So several practical steps in there. 503 00:43:51,900 --> 00:43:55,472 I won't get into all the details here, but those are all in the book. 504 00:43:55,472 --> 00:44:02,437 And then one other practical framework I'll talk about is setting structure and healthy expectations. 505 00:44:02,437 --> 00:44:09,302 And this is often one that we get some push back on, but also one of the most 506 00:44:09,524 --> 00:44:13,356 effective even in the early stages of implementing these. 507 00:44:13,356 --> 00:44:20,319 sometimes there's a little bit of almost distrust that this will work and then parents do really find it effective. 508 00:44:20,319 --> 00:44:32,424 But the truth is in our current narrative around trauma, oftentimes with the focus being on the trauma, we end up sort of tiptoeing around difficult things. 509 00:44:32,424 --> 00:44:38,566 We can feel as the parents or the caregivers like my kid has experienced so many hard things. 510 00:44:38,590 --> 00:44:44,093 I want to make it my job that they never experience anything difficult again. 511 00:44:44,853 --> 00:44:45,794 Well, guess what? 512 00:44:45,794 --> 00:44:48,135 That has not worked, it? 513 00:44:48,155 --> 00:44:51,517 It has not had the outcomes that we would hope. 514 00:44:51,517 --> 00:44:58,020 Because the reality is your child's future professor or boss does not care that they had trauma. 515 00:44:59,021 --> 00:45:08,586 So it's our job to prepare them to be able to contribute to the world and exist in the world and survive in the world, right? 516 00:45:08,586 --> 00:45:13,540 Our job as parents, as caregivers, is actually to build up their capacity. 517 00:45:13,540 --> 00:45:19,615 Not to say this is where your capacity is now it needs to stay there, but instead to build them up over time. 518 00:45:19,755 --> 00:45:22,897 So in order to do that, we have to have expectations. 519 00:45:23,338 --> 00:45:25,390 The rest of the world will have expectations. 520 00:45:25,390 --> 00:45:28,642 So how do we have expectations that are appropriate? 521 00:45:28,642 --> 00:45:35,288 And one of the things that we talk about that we're big fans of is Vygotsky's zones of proximal development. 522 00:45:35,288 --> 00:45:38,330 Now hang with me here for a minute, okay? 523 00:45:38,466 --> 00:45:39,568 Just a minute. 524 00:45:40,745 --> 00:45:44,985 I use this framework in my class at Vanguard, so I'm so glad. 525 00:45:44,985 --> 00:45:45,945 Yes. 526 00:45:47,865 --> 00:45:50,915 As soon she said Vykotsky, I'm like, all right, let's do it. 527 00:45:50,915 --> 00:45:52,185 All right, break it. 528 00:45:52,185 --> 00:45:53,205 Break it down, Dr. 529 00:45:53,205 --> 00:45:54,185 Wilkie. 530 00:45:54,242 --> 00:45:56,263 We're in good company here then. 531 00:45:56,263 --> 00:46:07,008 Okay, so I love this framework because I've seen it play out hundreds and hundreds of times across countless different families, right? 532 00:46:07,008 --> 00:46:17,312 But essentially, zones of proximal development, simply put, is this idea that we're going to assess, informally, obviously, we're gonna assess where our kids are, and we're gonna 533 00:46:17,312 --> 00:46:21,506 figure out where we want them to go, and what is the next step. 534 00:46:21,506 --> 00:46:23,668 What's the next step in that direction? 535 00:46:23,668 --> 00:46:24,308 Okay? 536 00:46:24,308 --> 00:46:32,935 So we're not going to say going back to the bike analogy, I'm not going to say to my three-year-old, hey, get on this bike that's too big for you and go ride really far by 537 00:46:32,935 --> 00:46:33,916 yourself. 538 00:46:33,916 --> 00:46:39,280 No, I'm going to first of all, get a bike that's appropriately sized, which would be small. 539 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:47,187 I'm gonna make sure that there are training wheels, that we've got the little elbow pads, know, all the extra steps that you need. 540 00:46:47,187 --> 00:46:51,660 But with my support, she can get to that next level. 541 00:46:51,660 --> 00:46:55,932 Now, how does this work in something that we care more about than riding a bike maybe? 542 00:46:56,012 --> 00:47:03,755 Okay, so let's imagine that you are doing foster care and you have a child come into your home and they've come from a really chaotic situation. 543 00:47:03,755 --> 00:47:13,689 So they've never been expected to do chores and they are not excited when you say, listen, we do chores in this family and you're going to be doing the dinner dishes. 544 00:47:13,689 --> 00:47:15,360 That's gonna be your part. 545 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:19,062 Everyone does their part and they're like, well, no, I'm not. 546 00:47:19,062 --> 00:47:20,544 So you have a choice. 547 00:47:20,544 --> 00:47:26,456 you can either double down and create a power struggle, which is just not going to go well. 548 00:47:26,456 --> 00:47:28,236 We don't want to go in that direction. 549 00:47:28,236 --> 00:47:32,697 You can try, but I'm not going to say that I told you, but here we are. 550 00:47:33,578 --> 00:47:40,189 Instead, what we can do is come alongside and build the capacity to move to that next step. 551 00:47:40,189 --> 00:47:43,961 So we say, okay, come on into the kitchen with me. 552 00:47:43,961 --> 00:47:46,351 I'm going to do the dishes and you're going to dry. 553 00:47:46,351 --> 00:47:47,662 I'll wash you dry. 554 00:47:47,662 --> 00:47:49,388 We do that for a few days. 555 00:47:49,388 --> 00:47:52,180 Wow, you're doing a great job on drying. 556 00:47:52,180 --> 00:47:57,203 Now I'm gonna have you wash the dishes and I'm gonna stand here and dry the dishes, all right? 557 00:47:57,203 --> 00:48:06,770 So we're still doing this, we're side by side, we're there if they need us, we're having conversation, we're bonding, we're getting to know each other. 558 00:48:06,770 --> 00:48:09,632 We might not even be saying any words, right? 559 00:48:09,632 --> 00:48:12,594 But we're spending the time together, we're investing. 560 00:48:12,594 --> 00:48:18,722 So eventually we're saying, okay, I'm going to go next here to this next space, I'm gonna. 561 00:48:18,722 --> 00:48:22,905 I'm going to organize the refrigerator while you wash and dry. 562 00:48:22,905 --> 00:48:24,166 So I'm still there. 563 00:48:24,166 --> 00:48:25,337 My presence is there. 564 00:48:25,337 --> 00:48:33,011 That's giving my child the courage to undertake something that might be a little bit intimidating or challenging for them. 565 00:48:33,572 --> 00:48:37,375 And maybe eventually I say, okay, I'll be in the next room while you do this. 566 00:48:37,375 --> 00:48:39,907 And so I'm backing myself away. 567 00:48:39,907 --> 00:48:48,062 I'm decreasing the supports that they need, but I've taken them from not being able to do that thing or not wanting at least to do that thing. 568 00:48:48,184 --> 00:48:58,649 to build their capacity so they can do it and they can do it independently without their needing to be shame or guilt or any of those other negative feelings that we want to 569 00:48:58,649 --> 00:48:59,019 avoid. 570 00:48:59,019 --> 00:49:04,552 So that's another example from the book that we offer as a framework. 571 00:49:05,156 --> 00:49:10,781 Yeah, just one thing I will say is you did those two which are awesome. 572 00:49:10,781 --> 00:49:17,427 like I said, all nine of these are fantastic and you guys do such a great job of describing and explaining what they are. 573 00:49:17,427 --> 00:49:24,786 You even have a big page that has like the one of the main thoughts or main quotes which is very helpful for people to just kind of have that one thing. 574 00:49:24,786 --> 00:49:28,867 you've missed everything else in this chapter, you want to make sure you got this thing. 575 00:49:28,867 --> 00:49:32,903 But then also, I think that the ninth one which is... 576 00:49:32,903 --> 00:49:36,316 put on your oxygen mask is so critical, right? 577 00:49:36,316 --> 00:49:37,657 This self-care. 578 00:49:37,657 --> 00:49:43,982 Because you're not gonna do any of the eight well if you're not healthy yourself. 579 00:49:43,982 --> 00:49:47,995 You're not gonna be able to do that with the dishes if you're not healthy. 580 00:49:47,995 --> 00:49:57,873 And I speaking from experience with five biological kids, with five kids doing that, if I'm not healthy myself, it doesn't go well when they don't do those dishes, right? 581 00:49:57,873 --> 00:50:02,496 And so it doesn't go well when I have to be patient on their bike. 582 00:50:02,496 --> 00:50:03,457 teaching them how to ride a bike. 583 00:50:03,457 --> 00:50:06,379 It doesn't go well when I'm doing these different things. 584 00:50:06,380 --> 00:50:09,743 So you need to make sure to be taking care of yourself. 585 00:50:09,743 --> 00:50:14,357 And that's something I'm so glad that was one of them, because that could have so easily been overlooked. 586 00:50:14,357 --> 00:50:16,850 And then people are like, well, how come it's not working? 587 00:50:16,850 --> 00:50:18,691 Well, because you're not healthy. 588 00:50:18,691 --> 00:50:21,934 And you're not yourself doing well with life. 589 00:50:21,934 --> 00:50:28,430 And so you need to make sure that you're taking care of yourself to be able to, especially in this work with vulnerable children. 590 00:50:28,983 --> 00:50:34,070 It's something that you better be healthy or else it won't go well. 591 00:50:34,225 --> 00:50:34,735 That's good. 592 00:50:34,735 --> 00:50:47,428 And going back to the example that Nicole shared with that whole more knowledgeable other is how Vickotsky puts it in terms of like, okay, there's a guidance here to me, what it 593 00:50:47,428 --> 00:50:48,578 maps on very well with. 594 00:50:48,578 --> 00:50:51,979 And even from the example that you gave, it's discipleship. 595 00:50:51,979 --> 00:50:54,059 Like, there's a discipleship element. 596 00:50:54,059 --> 00:50:59,570 so like when Jesus left and said, go and make disciples, I know I always keep coming back to this. 597 00:50:59,570 --> 00:51:04,602 Our audience has heard me talk about it, but like, yeah, so much boils down to discipleship. 598 00:51:04,602 --> 00:51:13,784 and even from this example and examples throughout overcoming, that comes across very significantly. 599 00:51:13,784 --> 00:51:19,642 So, Nicole, as we kind of start to land the plane here. 600 00:51:20,023 --> 00:51:31,713 Obviously, you know, over the years, you know, this podcast has really kind of been geared towards an audience that is really acutely aware of childhood adversity and, and even many 601 00:51:31,713 --> 00:51:38,618 people welcoming children into their homes, you know, that that have gone through real, you know, trauma. 602 00:51:38,979 --> 00:51:47,986 What encouragement would you have, you know, for those parents and caregivers who maybe feel a little hopeless, maybe even about their child's future? 603 00:51:49,034 --> 00:51:52,914 yeah, I totally, I hear that, I see that. 604 00:51:52,914 --> 00:51:55,036 It is so valid. 605 00:51:55,377 --> 00:52:09,423 There are so many years sometimes of desert and some of them extend well into adulthood and sometimes we don't even see the answer that we would hope here, the sight of heaven. 606 00:52:09,423 --> 00:52:15,165 And so it's really deep, difficult, sacrificial work. 607 00:52:15,165 --> 00:52:17,706 I don't know if this will resonate with anyone but 608 00:52:17,780 --> 00:52:30,354 when I'm talking to people and they say, we want to adopt, after gentle conversation, I try to diplomatically say, listen, are you ready to sacrifice the reputation of your 609 00:52:30,354 --> 00:52:31,254 family? 610 00:52:31,254 --> 00:52:34,995 The way that you think about yourselves in the world. 611 00:52:34,995 --> 00:52:38,176 There's so much that goes with that. 612 00:52:38,796 --> 00:52:45,678 But at the same time, I think both scripture and science give us a lot to be hopeful about. 613 00:52:46,006 --> 00:52:47,326 a lot to be hopeful about. 614 00:52:47,326 --> 00:53:03,521 see with research on resilience, see overcomers and outliers, people who are excelling and succeeding and maybe not right away, but are coming into this life where they know their 615 00:53:03,521 --> 00:53:09,152 creator, they know who they are in him and that is so healing, right? 616 00:53:09,152 --> 00:53:10,593 It's everything. 617 00:53:10,593 --> 00:53:15,146 I would say that we serve the creator of the universe. 618 00:53:15,146 --> 00:53:17,447 and nothing is impossible for him. 619 00:53:18,989 --> 00:53:32,890 Being filled by the Spirit is going to be everything in this journey and it's easy to do that at times and sort of ride that wave and then run out, right? 620 00:53:32,890 --> 00:53:40,566 Change the behavior, change the habits and start to run dry and it's never too late to get back to spending time with the Lord. 621 00:53:40,812 --> 00:53:47,985 Like Phil was saying, you need to be healthy, you need to be filled up, you cannot pour from an empty cup, and that is so true. 622 00:53:49,566 --> 00:53:57,589 But I would also say that our kids are made in God's image and they are built to be more than conquerors. 623 00:53:57,669 --> 00:53:59,180 So we can have hope in that. 624 00:53:59,180 --> 00:54:06,263 We can have hope that God wants to do great things in them and through us and in us in this entire process. 625 00:54:06,263 --> 00:54:08,448 It is definitely a journey of... 626 00:54:08,448 --> 00:54:18,172 stepping in to say yes to a high-risk situation and sometimes surrendering the outcomes, well, always surrendering the outcomes to him, sometimes not having the outcomes that we 627 00:54:18,172 --> 00:54:19,203 would hope for. 628 00:54:19,203 --> 00:54:26,166 But at the same time, I think that we can all recognize when we've been in this work that the blessing is in the obedience. 629 00:54:26,166 --> 00:54:32,288 It's in obeying Christ and his call to care for vulnerable children and families, to care for orphans and widows. 630 00:54:32,588 --> 00:54:36,394 And within that, we can trust that he has good 631 00:54:36,394 --> 00:54:40,277 good things for us even if we don't see them right here in the temporal. 632 00:54:41,729 --> 00:54:42,280 Amen. 633 00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:46,043 That is a good word and certainly an encouragement. 634 00:54:46,043 --> 00:54:49,576 to our listeners, you will find the Amazon link. 635 00:54:49,576 --> 00:54:52,649 Is there a better spot for people to get the book or can I just do that? 636 00:54:52,649 --> 00:54:54,060 I typically just do the Amazon link. 637 00:54:54,060 --> 00:54:55,120 Is that good? 638 00:54:55,777 --> 00:54:59,829 Okay, all right, so the link to Overcoming is there. 639 00:54:59,829 --> 00:55:02,380 You've heard me and Phil praised it. 640 00:55:02,380 --> 00:55:07,122 I was privileged to also offer an endorsement on the inside cover, which was fun. 641 00:55:07,122 --> 00:55:10,074 I've believed in your work, Nicole, as well as that of Dr. 642 00:55:10,074 --> 00:55:10,424 Howard. 643 00:55:10,424 --> 00:55:13,755 So we're grateful that this book is available. 644 00:55:13,755 --> 00:55:23,080 So encourage our listeners to grab Overcoming, especially, man, there's so much practical knowledge in this book. 645 00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,150 I mean, it's a must have. 646 00:55:25,671 --> 00:55:29,584 We do have one question that we ask everyone. 647 00:55:29,584 --> 00:55:36,438 for you, you shared with us kind of your own genesis and maturation within this space. 648 00:55:36,438 --> 00:55:46,965 As an American based in Latin America doing research, there may be another little Nicole Wilkie out there listening. 649 00:55:47,886 --> 00:55:55,591 So for someone that is pursuing God's heart of justice in the nations, what is one thing that you would recommend that they 650 00:55:55,591 --> 00:55:56,253 to. 651 00:55:57,676 --> 00:56:00,187 I think it's very difficult to come to one. 652 00:56:02,088 --> 00:56:03,629 I might add a couple, okay? 653 00:56:03,629 --> 00:56:04,729 Be patient with me. 654 00:56:04,729 --> 00:56:10,482 But I would say very serious and intense prayer is where to start. 655 00:56:10,482 --> 00:56:12,072 There's no question. 656 00:56:12,593 --> 00:56:16,595 Justice work without Jesus will chew you up and spit you out. 657 00:56:16,595 --> 00:56:19,836 There's no question that you cannot do this on your own. 658 00:56:20,236 --> 00:56:24,108 And yet when we are thriving in him, we are... 659 00:56:24,108 --> 00:56:30,243 When we're living in the fullness of our relationship with Christ, there's no telling what he can do through us. 660 00:56:30,243 --> 00:56:34,387 So I think serious and intense prayer, not rushing into it, right? 661 00:56:34,387 --> 00:56:38,130 Like it is okay to go slowly. 662 00:56:38,130 --> 00:56:40,111 Life is long. 663 00:56:40,832 --> 00:56:42,754 But really diving into prayer. 664 00:56:42,754 --> 00:56:52,972 And then I think slowly and everyone has different paces, of course, but listening and learning from examples of good practice, just... 665 00:56:53,534 --> 00:56:55,666 trying to get a broad 666 00:56:55,766 --> 00:56:58,537 picture of what God is actually doing in the world. 667 00:56:58,537 --> 00:57:02,839 I think our temptation can be to think, I see a problem. 668 00:57:02,839 --> 00:57:04,340 I personally have the solution. 669 00:57:04,340 --> 00:57:05,911 Let me do it my way. 670 00:57:05,911 --> 00:57:16,186 But the truth is there are so many people that have gone before us that have made the mistakes, that have done the learning that we can draw from and also just tremendously 671 00:57:16,186 --> 00:57:21,848 powerful, amazing examples of God moving in incredible ways. 672 00:57:21,848 --> 00:57:25,700 So learning from that, I think is the next step. 673 00:57:25,700 --> 00:57:32,360 I mean, along with that, it's just not overvaluing what we have to offer. 674 00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:45,042 I think just taking that humility or that humble stance, leading with humility, listening, learning, going slowly, just will bear so much fruit long-term. 675 00:57:45,042 --> 00:57:48,934 So leading with prayer and humility would, I guess, sum that up. 676 00:57:49,826 --> 00:57:51,477 Ooh, those are good ones. 677 00:57:51,477 --> 00:57:52,588 Yeah, absolutely. 678 00:57:52,588 --> 00:57:56,010 Well, Nicole, this has been enlightening. 679 00:57:56,010 --> 00:57:57,370 This has been practical. 680 00:57:57,370 --> 00:58:01,563 This has been everything that we hoped that this conversation would be. 681 00:58:01,563 --> 00:58:06,025 So we got lots of wins on this conversation. 682 00:58:06,025 --> 00:58:10,108 So, Nicole, thank you so much for being with us and for your work at CAFO. 683 00:58:10,958 --> 00:58:12,263 Thanks for having me. 684 00:58:12,263 --> 00:58:13,515 It was a pleasure. 685 00:58:14,474 --> 00:58:23,230 And to our listeners, may Almighty God who created us in his own image grant us grace to fearlessly contend against evil and to make no peace with oppression. 686 00:58:23,230 --> 00:58:31,516 And that we may reverently use our freedom and employ it in the maintenance of justice in our communities and among the nations to the glory of God's holy name through Jesus Christ 687 00:58:31,516 --> 00:58:36,239 our Lord, who lives and reigns with the Father and the Holy Spirit, one God now and forever. 688 00:58:36,239 --> 00:58:40,341 Amen, and we will see you guys on the next episode of Think Global, Do Justice.