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Welcome back to the Oldest Profession podcast. I'm your host, Kaytlin Bailey and today we are

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going to talk about Rhode Island. Now, I talk about sex worker rights for a living. All day, I talk to

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people about decrim and why it's the only policy that reduces violence, and why it's the only

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policy that sex workers all over the world want. And often well-meaning people will ask me a

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reasonable question, which is, how can you know that the decriminalization of sex work is so

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great?

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Now we can and do talk about New Zealand and several states in Australia and other examples

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on the other side of the world. But what I want people to understand is that we actually ran an

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accidental or natural experiment right here in the US because for a period of time, Rhode Island

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decriminalized indoor consensual adult prostitution.

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So we have real statistics and real evidence about what can happen when you just stop

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arresting people who buy or sell sex. Let's get into it.

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​

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[opening]​

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There are a lot of places we could start this story, but I want to start with Mike.

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Michael

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Okay, My name is Michael x. I'm an attorney in Providence, Rhode Island. In the past, I was a

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criminal defense lawyer, and now I'm a personal injury attorney.

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I had an appointment to meet a client for an auto accident case, and the client never showed

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up, but a Korean lady came walking in, actually running in, and she was kind of frantic and she

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asked me if I would go help our friends that they were at the police station, and I agreed to do

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that.

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I saw the officer that was in charge, told them I was there to represent several ladies. I didn't

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even have their names. My goal was to get them released on bail, contacted the bail

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commissioner, and I waited at the police station, chatted with the girls, and eventually the bail

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commissioner came. He read the charges. We entered not guilty pleas to all of them. He

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released each one on a small amount of bail. They paid it and I drove them back to where they

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had been arrested from.

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So when I dropped them off, I didn't just open the door and say, “Here you are.” I went into the

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building with them and there was a lady there who seemed to be in charge of running the floor

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of the house that they were renting. She was very, very nice.We got into a conversation. It was a

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very nice, pleasant environment. The place is beautiful inside. It's one of these old, old, old

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Victorian type homes that they have on Broadway. And in the course of that, she asked me if I

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would consider representing the girls on the charges.

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KB

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Can you talk about what happened next? You decided to take on this case. What did you find

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when you started to look into it?

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MK

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Well, the first thing I needed to do was get up to speed on the criminal law. I looked at the law of

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arrest and I looked at the law of misdemeanor arrests in particular and I found this aspect of the

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law that talked about public, in public. And as I was thinking back to the day when I was in that

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house, it didn't look like it was all that public to me. It looked like it was a private residential type

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of building. So I started to think of a factual defense, whether I could build a defense around the

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public aspect of the statutory requirement.

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This is the first of a series of cases that led to the 2003 case. What I did was I went to court and

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we entered not guilty pleas again in front of the judge. The case was continued two weeks for a

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conference with the attorney for the city.

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And at that time during the conference, I mentioned to him, “How are you going to prove this

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happened in public? Based on the police reports, the officers were inside of the building.” And

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he said, “Are you going to go with that kind of a defense?” I said, “It seems like a real defense

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here.”

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And eventually he went in front of the judge and agreed to drop the charges. And my case was

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dismissed against these four women. And I thought that was the end of it. Sure. Until the

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scenario repeated itself.

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And I kept fighting my cases while the other lawyers were leading, a couple of the other lawyers,

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were pleading their clients. So what was really happening was the prosecutor for the city was

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dismissing my cases rather than getting a decision from the judge or pushing the issue on the

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public aspect.

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My thinking was most of my clients were not U.S. citizens. There is a provision, where at that

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time, there was a provision in the immigration law that if you were convicted of a prostitution

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type offense, you could be at that time, you could be removed from the country as undesirable

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because of the nature of your conviction. It wasn't just prostitution, but that was definitely in my

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mind, that if I pled my client to something that sounded like it was prostitution, that it might get

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them excluded from the country.

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So after a few of these cases, Michael became the go-to guy for prostitution related arrests.

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And so you got the attention of the, you know, powers that be in Rhode Island. They came after

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you, right?

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MK

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Well, they weren’t coming after me, they were coming after my attack on the statue. My defense

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that I was using. And the pressure came from the top as I understood it. It probably came down

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through the police department that we have to stop dismissing Mike Kiselica’s cases. We think

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we can build a charge for illegal massage and for loitering for purposes of prostitution. So we

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had to have a trial on this case, on this issue.

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Okay. And so you guys went to trial. And can you talk a little bit about that experience?

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MK

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Yeah, it wasn't a real trial in the classic sense. There was no pounding on the table,

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cross-examining witnesses or anything of that nature. I looked at the police reports and I said to

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the prosecutor, “Are your officers going to testify that anything that isn't in their report?” And he

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said, “No, they're going to be testifying to what's in their report.” I said, “Well, I'll stipulate that

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your officers’ reports can be used as evidence against my client.”

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So we talked to the judge about it and she said, “Really, I don't have to listen to a couple of days

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of testimony? I can read, you know, and have it researched and have, you know, instead of me

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recording what I think, you will have it on paper as stipulated facts. Sure, I'll do a trial like that if

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it's okay with the defense.” I said, “Yeah, Judge, it is.”

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And we reached an agreed statement of facts and signed our names to it. At which point I filed a

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memorandum of law to dismiss the case based on the fact that everything the police officers

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must be accepted is true, it doesn't amount to a violation of the law because none of this

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occurred in the public setting.

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The judge, if I remember correctly, took about a month or so to analyze my arguments and also

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the counterarguments of the city. She gave this a lot of thought and she told us what day to

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come to court for a decision. It was in the afternoon. It was Judge Elaine Bucci. And I think it

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was a pretty courageous decision by her, one that was not going to put her in good standing, so

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to speak, with the public.

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She knew exactly what was going on and she said, “I know what's going on here, but I have to

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look at the fact that in this particular case, the building where the events took place had an

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exterior glass door that had a lock on it, and you had to be buzzed through that. You walked

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through a lobby and you got to another solid wood door, which also had a lock on it that had to

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be opened from the inside only, and that was opened by someone working for that particular

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spa. Once you got inside there, you were taken to a small room which didn't have a lock on the

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door but had a solid wood door where it was just you and a woman inside that room and no one

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could hear what was going on. No one could see what was going on.”

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I had a pretty good argument.

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KB

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Yeah, that's hard to make an argument that that's happening in a public space.

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MK

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Yeah. And it failed that part of the test and the prostitution charges were dismissed. They also

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tried their fallback position, which was that this is the crime of giving a massage without a

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massage license. There are particular requirements in the law for a massage to take place. It

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has to be targeted for health purposes. The officers rendered no complaints of any physical

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problems. They did not ask for anything to be treated, any particular areas of the body. The

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women did not offer to treat any area of the body. The word massage was actually not used and

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the judge found that this, whatever it was, was more like a backrub than a massage. It was not a

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medical type of procedure that would be governed by the rules of the Department of Health.

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KB

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All right, so this judge's decision comes down. Is this the moment that this decision gets a lot of

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press? Like, is this when it becomes known throughout Rhode Island?

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MK

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It did not get a lot of press initially. And there were other police departments that were still

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arresting girls under similar circumstances. Not every one of these businesses was located in

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Providence. So some of the outlying communities were still having raids and arrests and

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prosecuting this law like it was a valid law.

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I would say that every six or eight months it seemed like there was a raid on one theory or

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another. They went into business requirements and zoning requirements and inspection

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requirements. They tried to prove that people were living on the first floor of a commercial

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building, which apparently is illegal, or they had a stove or people were living overnight. They

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had a lot of different angles they approached the business at. They went after the landlords a

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little bit. Those kind of things.

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We’re going to get back to Michael’s story in a minute, but first I want to address one burning

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question which is how did this happen? There's a lot of talk from politicians and people in the

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media about there being some kind of overlooked loophole, or how maybe legislators

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accidentally decriminalized indoor sex work in Rhode Island. But I sat down with a couple of

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folks to get the record straight.

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And the first is long serving sex worker rights activist Bella Robinson, who founded COYOTE,

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Rhode Island. Now, of course, longtime listeners of the podcast will recognize COYOTE as one

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of the first sex worker rights organizations in the U.S. And of course, it stands for, Call Off Your

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Old Tired Ethics.

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BR

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Well, it started with Margo St. James and Margo sued Providence police in the state because

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the prostitution laws were so vague. It said if you had indiscriminate sex, you didn't even have to

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pass money. Have sex with someone beside your husband and be locked up. Right. And it was

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a felony. So, she sued the state, the city and the state.

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And the one complaint was they were only going after the women. And the second complaint

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was what right does the state have to do in the sex lives of adults in private?

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I'm the kind of nerd that likes to get into the details of the law. So I contacted Steven Brown, who

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is the executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Rhode Island, and he's been in

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this fight for a long time. Steven, what happened in 1976?

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SB

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COYOTe, the sex worker rights organization filed a lawsuit here in Providence, Rhode Island,

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challenging Rhode Island's prostitution laws. That lawsuit led to a settlement where, the Rhode

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Island legislature, revised the state's prostitution laws and essentially made, indoor, consensual

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sex, even for compensation, lawful.

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So, Rhode Island for a number of years until 2009, which I know we'll get to, essentially had

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decriminalized prostitution in the state.

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Can you help me understand? So this case happens. The legislature is tasked with revising the

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law. They do so. Why does this suddenly come up in 2003? Why isn't this a big story in 1980?

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Why aren't there, you know, consensual adult brothels everywhere?

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SB

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Yeah, that's a great question. So the 1980 settlement was agreed to by all sides. I mean, it was

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not just, COYOTE, the state, the state's attorney general all agreed that the law needed to be

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changed, and they all recognized what they were doing. You know, one of the one of the real

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myths that occurred in 2009 and before then when there was an attempt to re-criminalize

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prostitution in the state, was that there was somehow a loophole that occurred in 1980 with the

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settlement of the case.

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But that's not at all. Everybody knew what the General Assembly had done. And there was

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really no pushback for a few decades. That was still early. You know, it's important to note, I

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mean, the soliciting for prostitution in public that remained illegal. So arrests were still going on,

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but the act itself was not, what occurred inside was perfectly lawful.

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And things just stayed that way for a long time. And that what happened in 2003 is that, the

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Providence police suddenly became very concerned because there was an increase in

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so-called “Asian Spas” in Rhode Island. And they were conducting raids but unable to bring

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charges a lot of the time because indoor prostitution was not illegal under the law.

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KB

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Steven, can you talk to me a little bit about what these raids looked like? Like, what were the

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police doing?

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SB

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First, they were arresting women. You know, it was almost all women, of course. And doing it

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and specifically saying they were doing it to try to get them to name names, you know, to name

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who was, you know, who they were giving their money to, you know, who the so-called pimps

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were. So they were arresting them, putting them in prison all in the name of helping them.

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And at the same time, what was going on is they were also contacting immigration officials. So

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the, again, the women they were supposedly trying to help, they were, you know, they were

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letting immigration know if their statuswas not legal.

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KB

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I think what's so frustrating to so many people that I spoke to is that these raids were being

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framed as a rescue operation, because the dominant narrative is that the people that worked at

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these spas were literal sex slaves. But let's go back to Michael to hear how these raids and this

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narrative impacted his clients.

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MK

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It was alleged many times to me that none of the clients I represented wanted to do this, that

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they were all being held there against their will, that they didn't have access to their passports,

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they did not have access to health care. They were being moved around like you would trade

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cattle, horses, or something like that.

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I saw zero of that. I saw very grateful clients and not one of them ever confided in me. And I had

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a lot of conversations face to face, me, the client only,no one else there. Not one of them ever

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said to me, “Help me, help me get me out of this.” Not one of them did. And the police would

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often bring it, like, many of the girls were Korean. They would bring a Korean interpreter and put

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them together in a room and never uncovered evidence. I'm not saying it's that way in every

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circumstance, but every circumstance I was involved in it was that way.

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KB

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It is easy for me to imagine being incredibly grateful for being out of jail. It feels like you're the

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one who's rescuing someone in the situation, right? Not the police officers. Right. These raids

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are not helping any of your clients. It's why they enlisted your services, right?

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MK

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Wow. What a question you just asked. I hope you put the question with my answer. The change

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in the law to make this, to re-criminalize this, was pushed as a move to help the women, to

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protect the women. We need to be able to arrest them so that we can identify who they are, that

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they're in the country legally. We need to find out if they're getting appropriate health care or if

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they're being held against their will, if they're being forced into this. If we can't arrest them, we

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can't fulfill that purpose.

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So I was shocked to hear law enforcement speaking that way. But they did. And that was one of

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the official positions of why we needed to change that law.

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Let's pause here for a minute. We established that in 1980, Rhode Island effectively

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decriminalized indoor prostitution. And this doesn't seem to be a problem or cause any major

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fuss from anyone involved.

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But around this time, you start to see an increase in migration from Southeast Asia—Vietnam,

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Cambodia, Laos—following the Vietnam War. This increased visibility of Southeast Asian

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women, especially in the Asian owned massage parlors, causes a xenophobic backlash.

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So I called up fellow sex work history scholar, Aya Gruber, who is a professor at USC Gould,

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who explained this pretty succinctly.

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AG

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Recently, I've gone back and looked at just the whole history of sex criminalization. And it just

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strikes me that sex workers were really the women, mostly women, upon who people displaced

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their anxieties, anxieties about sex, anxieties about women's role.

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Because when you think about it, here were women who were not only, you know, in violation of

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these chastity mores. They were actually in the economy.

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Imagine that you're in the position of a undocumented sex worker, right, who's already liable for

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all kinds of criminal things. They have children, they have established lives. It is very hard to

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make public statements.

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And yet, when they were taking testimony finally for the hearing, sex workers came out with

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interpreters and talked about their experiences. And one sex worker said, look, I've been doing

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this a while, and I just and it really hits you. She said, “I just need to pay for my oldest child to go

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to college. And then you can criminalize me.”

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I mean, here is somebody putting their children through college. That's what we want, you know,

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from our immigrant communities, is to make a better life for their children.

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This period of open decriminalization in Rhode Island gave many people an opportunity to build

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a better life for themselves, and their children. Bella, who you heard from earlier, has this story

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to share about coming to Rhode Island to work openly under decrim.

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BR

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In Jersey, before I moved to Rhode Island, when the SWAT team kicked in my door because me

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and my friend, who were both in her 40s, had a Craigslist ad, they kicked in our door like we

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were terrorists, with the ram, without a word, with guns. And I was jailed for 90 days. And they

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me pay $3,720 fine and I told the judge, “I have a 17-year-old daughter, I didn't have a job. I

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could give you $25, I can't pay this.” You’re going to pay $310 a month for 12 months or we’re

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going to issue a warrant.

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So when I get out of jail and my first client tells me, you know, it's legal in Rhode Island. He

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leaves and I google it, you know, guys will say anything to impress you. Honey, I packed up the

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house.

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I moved here in March of 2009. It was freedom. It was total freedom. No one even tried to

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threaten, you know, I don't remember there being a lot of violence or things like that.

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So during this time, raids continuing and the pressure to close down these spas and

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re-criminalize sex work is ramping up. And part of that is the increased visibility of sex work. As

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Michael said, the police are coming at this from all angles, and other people start to get involved

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too.

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MK

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I'm going to give you my take on this. And I could be wrong, but my sense was that Mayor

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Cicilline wanted to have the spas in Rhode Island closed down as he was moving towards

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higher political aspirations on a statewide basis.

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And it was very, very well known outside of Rhode Island. I mean, much of the traffic, much of

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the business came from outside of Rhode Island. A lot of it came from Massachusetts. It was

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getting noteworthy that Rhode Island was a location where you could come to meet with a

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woman who was interested in providing sexual services and, you know, in exchange for

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remuneration and financial remuneration.

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Several of the mayors were talking about how there’s nothing illegal about what's going on. We

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can't shut these businesses down.

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There was a lot of frustration. The newspaper picked up on it. I ended up on that, I think my

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picture was on the front page. Kind of had to tell my mom at that point what was going on.

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So politicians are panicking and there’s a broad coalition of folks that really start fanning the

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flames and pushing this issue. And people like Donna Hughes who is a rabid anti-sex,

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anti-pornography, pretty transphobic and also racist researcher becomes very publically

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involved.

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AG

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There was one particular vert active, neo-abolitionist feminist in Rhode Island named Donna

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Hughes. And she was teaching students and she had students and former students that were,

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that were, you know, in this coalition, she was hooked into the larger anti-trafficking world. And,

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you know, she was saying, “Oh my gosh, right, I cannot believe that this form of a modern day

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slavery, that is all sex work is allowed in my state.”

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And this coincided with, of course, the longstanding religious groups who were against all forms

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of sex and sex work and sex not inside of marriage. And then there was a third group. And the

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third group was concerned Providence citizens who saw a growing red light district of mostly

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Asian sex work establishments and were very not-in-my-backyard about it.

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So that was the coalition on one side. The other side had a coalition and that included the ACLU

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and even the mainstream National Organization of Women and civil rights groups. So it was a

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very left, progressive coalition, against this sort of right wing but also feminist, anti-trafficking

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coalition.

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And there's this one amazing story of one of her students. They're basically staking out these

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establishments, and watching who goes in, and they're going to publicize the men who go in

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and, you know, rescue the women. And one of the cohorts of the neo-abolitionist group, one of

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the women who was kind of going around and surveilling the establishments told the reporter

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like, “Look, there's the Mama-san and she's the one who runs all the girls and da da da da da.”

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So there's this language coming out of a supposedly feminist movement that is just, I mean, the

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intersection of racism and sexism. Right?

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KB

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So as soon as this issue starts getting publicity in 2003, there is immediate pressure to change

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the law. Let's go back to Steven, who was there for this fight.

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SB

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It did take five years for the General Assembly to ultimately pass a law. I mean, there was a lot

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of pushback from organizations, not just the ACLU, but others who, you know, thought that the

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law was perfectly appropriate as it existed at the time and pointed out all the deleterious effects

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that would arise from re-criminalizing this.

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One of the other troubling results of this crackdown on prostitution in 2009 was the legislature

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also passed a handful of other laws that were specifically aimed at sex workers. They passed a

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law requiring anybody convicted of prostitution offenses to undergo mandatory HIV testing. They

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passed a special law just for people convicted of these sex offenses to pay an extra fine if they

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were convicted. Nobody else. It was specifically aimed at prostitution offenses. So, there were a

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few other really just terrible laws, you know, with no real reason for them other than to punish

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sex workers more than criminalizing it in the first place.

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[break]

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MS

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Scott Cunningham, who is a professor at Baylor University, who I didn't know back in the day,

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emailed me out of the blue and was like, “Have you heard about this really neat thing that

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happened in Rhode Island?”

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Now, mind you, I didn't know Scott at the time and I didn't know what had happened in Rhode

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Island.And so I did a little research on my own and came to learn about this huge thing that had

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happened,and that was really the beginning of a long-term collaboration with Scott and myself

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that lasted about six years before we published this paper.

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My name is Manisha Shah and I am a professor of public policy at the UCLA Luskin School of

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Public Affairs. I am an economist by training, and I have been researching sex markets and

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thinking about the optimal regulation of sex markets probably for about the past 20 years of my

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career.

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What's super exciting about what happened in Rhode Island is, you know, at least from a

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research perspective, we have this natural experiment where we have this unexpected

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decriminalization that basically happens overnight.

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So the significance of something like this is huge for a researcher like myself. And the reason

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for this is because in the social sciences, and especially in economics, we're sort of obsessed

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with this idea of causality, right? And this is because we want to be able to show that X causes

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Y, which is a much stronger statement than like X is simply correlated with Y.

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We can think about Rhode Island as our treatment state. That's where the decriminalization

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happens. And we can think about the rest of the US where, you know, policy around sex work

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doesn't change at all, as our control states.

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We could also think if we wanted to get smaller, we could also just look at New England as our

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control states. But the idea here is that we have this really nice natural experiment that will allow

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us to do some causal analysis on the impacts of decriminalizing sex work on outcomes that we

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care about.

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You know, there's a lot of talk about, kind of, associations between sex market and STI

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transmission, right? Disease transmission is always a big sort of potential negative externality

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that people talk about. And then the second thing that you often hear about in the news and

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media is violence against women, right? That there's just a lot of violence associated with sex

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markets. And in fact, STI transmission as well as violence against women are two of the

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reasons that we often push this idea that, you know, we shouldn't have legal sex market.

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Let me also step back for a minute and say two things. From a theoretical perspective, right, if

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we were just looking at theory, the relationship between decriminalization and STI transmission

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is actually an ambiguous relationship, right? So theory doesn't help us with a prediction. And the

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reason that it's an ambiguous relationship is because on the one hand you could have

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epidemiological models which suggest that, like, the bigger the sex market, the more sex people

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are having. And if STI transmission is a function of sex, well then you would expect increasing

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STIs. So that's kind of one side of the theory. The second side of the theory, though, is, you

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know, and what this first piece of the theory ignores is that there could be a behavioral

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response.

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And so what do I mean by a behavioral response? What I mean is once you decriminalize sex,

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workers could feel more empowered to reject clients who are risky, to reject clients who say,

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“No, I'm not going to wear a condom.” Right. And they could actually engage in much safer sex

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and much safer behavior. And of course, as we all know, less risky behavior could then result in

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lower disease transmission.

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And so we investigate this empirically. We got CDC data on gonorrhea, you know, from all over

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the US for a long period of time. And basically what we show is that in Rhode Island, during the

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six year period of decriminalization, gonorrhea decreases by about 40% for women in the state

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of Rhode Island.

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KB

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Wow. Those are incredible numbers. I hear, I remember vaguely from my AP statistics class

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approximately 1000 years ago that we talk about statistically significant changes. So can you

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give us some perspective on, like, what does a 40% decrease mean? Like when you're looking,

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like, what would the World Health Organization consider to be like a dramatic decrease?

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MS

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Yeah, you know, a 40% decrease is a very dramatic decrease. I mean, it's big on, you know, it's

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a substantial decrease and a big result. And I think one of the reasons that this study got so

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much press and so much interest was precisely because we had this nice natural experiment.

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These are causal results. This is CDC data. And, you know, kind of really dramatic findings.

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The second area of interest was what happens to violence against women, right? We were very

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interested in looking at this question. We were able to use uniform crime reports data. So this is,

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again, you know, a big national database. And we looked at reported rape offenses over time.

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And again, what we're finding in in Rhode Island is during this period of decriminalization,

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reported rape offenses, so women reporting rape, decreases by about 30% in the state of

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Rhode Island during this period.

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And so, again, this is, you know, this is a statistically significant result of pretty large magnitude.

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And I want to say, and sort of another interesting thing that was happening, was there was a

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companion study happening in the Netherlands during this period, and they were looking at the

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impacts of legal tippelzones that were kind of policy across the Netherlands. And they found

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very similar magnitudes in reductions in violence against women also by around 30%. And so it

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was kind of, it was a nice companion piece to our paper at the time.

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And this, you know, again, I want to say this is not a new finding for us in that there's work

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actually that's come out of New York City that has shown that when, you know, establishments

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selling sex opened up in different neighborhoods in New York City, again, we saw a decrease in

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reported violence against women in in these places.

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KB

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Great. I also have heard theories about how the decriminalization of sex work increases the

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negotiating power of people participating in this work. And so it's, you know, thought that like I

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know that many people turn to sex work as a way of escaping acute domestic violence

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situations.

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And so did you see anything where, you know, I understand that like sex work or the availability

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of sex work creates kind of a release valve, right, on the pressure of male violence. But is there

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also a counterforce of it creating more pathways or more opportunities for women to get out of

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violent situations or avoid violent situations like, for example, at the hands of police?

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MS

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Absolutely, I mean one thing that I’ve wanted to mention, I've sort of focused on the quantitative

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data work of this study, but we did a lot of qualitative work as well, interviewing police and, you

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know, legal, people in law, etc.. And I think one of the really interesting things that came up is

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during this period of decriminalization, there was a lot more collaboration between law

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enforcement and sex workers than we probably normally see.

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And I think part of that is just precisely that, right, is once sex workers are no longer engaging in

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something that is considered a crime, they are much more empowered to take care of each

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other, to help each other, to report strange things to law enforcement and, you know, they're

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much more empowered in their interactions with clients.

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Clients know that they can no longer be as abusive as they might normally be, precisely

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because now sex workers have legal recourse. Right? They can get out of the relationship.

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They can report this guy. They can, you know, if they hear a woman in the next room screaming

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and they think something is wrong with her, they can call the police and they can get help.

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And so that's a big piece of this decriminalization story that I think that gets left out of a lot of the

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discourse is just how empowering this is for women who sell sex on every margin. Right.

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Whether it's getting out of a relationship, whether it's helping your friend, any margin. Once

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you're no longer engaging in an illegal activity, you have recourse, right?

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Awesome. So yeah, then moving on, as somebody who has studied sex markets and the

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various schemes and policies that we have tried at, you know, governing or controlling the

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oldest profession, what is it that you as a researcher wish policymakers understood about sex

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markets and how to regulate them or not?

428
00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:08,000
MS

429
00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:09,000
Oh, wow. Okay. So there's a lot of things I wish policymakers understood when thinking about

430
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:10,000
regulating the market. But unfortunately, I think one of the problems that policymakers as well as

431
00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:11,000
DA's in this country face is there are a lot of people in the U.S. who find sex work morally

432
00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:12,000
repugnant. And so what ends up happening then is in our public policy discourse, we sort of

433
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:13,000
conflate a lot of the moral issues with the evidence base.

434
00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:14,000
And so maybe, you know, my dream, number one would be getting more of the evidence base

435
00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:15,000
out there to people. I actually do research all over the globe in many different contexts. I've done

436
00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:16,000
some work on legal and regulated, and I guess so, you know, one thing to policymakers would

437
00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:17,000
be to start looking at the research. There are lots of great studies coming out from all over the

438
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:18,000
globe, whether, you know, our work in the U.S, but there's also a lot of work now on the end

439
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:19,000
demand model or the Nordic model.

440
00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:20,000
So the things that we know now that, you know, there are studies coming out of Sweden and the

441
00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:21,000
UK and places that have implemented the Nordic model. So there's a new newish study that

442
00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:22,000
came out of the U.K. and they basically looked at the impacts of the end demand model, and

443
00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:23,000
they were actually finding it's not that demand decreases, which is sort of the idea behind the

444
00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:24,000
end demand model, right, is like, let's get these guys to stop buying sex. What happens is that

445
00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:25,000
the type of guy who buys sex really changes and that type of guy becomes a riskier guy.

446
00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:26,000
KB

447
00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:27,000
I want to jump in and clarify what Dr. Shah is talking about. Because after speaking to so many

448
00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:28,000
sex workers from these regions, what we understand is that this law does not prevent or

449
00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:29,000
dissuade people from buying sex, but it does change the behavior of the people who are buying

450
00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:30,000
sex for the worse, the much worse.

451
00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:31,000
MS

452
00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:32,000
So going back to public policy, this is not what we want. We do not want, you know, clients to

453
00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:33,000
become more risky. Because that is just going to, again, have very negative implications for sex

454
00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:34,000
workers. And honestly, for all of us in society.

455
00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:35,000
I think the other thing, you know, there's another interesting study coming out of Sweden that's

456
00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:36,000
showing, again, going back to this, does it end demand? No, it doesn't end demand, it displaces

457
00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:37,000
demand. And so what they find is that Swedish men now are flying to places like Thailand to

458
00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:38,000
buy sex, because it's become much harder for them to do it in their own country. They find that

459
00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:39,000
reported rape offenses of Swedish women increased after the end demand model was

460
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,000
implemented.

461
00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:41,000
So yes, my read of all of these places where studies have been coming out, where the end

462
00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:42,000
demand model has been implemented, is that, yes, violence against women has increased in

463
00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:43,000
these places.

464
00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:44,000
And so, again, from a public policy perspective, I think thinking about public policies which sort

465
00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:45,000
of decrease harms that sex workers face on the job, while also, of course, maximizing the

466
00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:46,000
welfare of all of us individuals in society is probably the way to go when we're more thinking

467
00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:47,000
about public policy.

468
00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:48,000
[break]

469
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:49,000
KB

470
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:50,000
One good thing that did come out of the re-criminalization of sex work in Rhode Island is some

471
00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:51,000
incredible activism.

472
00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:52,000
BR

473
00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:53,000
They criminalized it November 2009 and I founded COYOTE Rhode Island, Call of Your Old

474
00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:54,000
Tired Ethics, in 2009 in response to them re-criminalizing prostitution.

475
00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:55,000
I didn't think they were going to do it. I really didn’t get into activism, until you know, it pissed me

476
00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:56,000
off. If I hadn't been pissed off, I might not have become an activist, might not have been

477
00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:57,000
watching the news, seeing all the girls die. I'm still pissed off, but I’m more effective now.

478
00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:58,000
KB

479
00:07:58,000 --> 00:07:59,000
I asked Bella to share some stories of what happened after criminalization

480
00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:00,000
BR

481
00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,000
So we found three 18-year-old girls they charged with felony sex trafficking of a minor. They're

482
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:02,000
housing 15 year olds and 20 year olds in the same group homes. Right. And they had a

483
00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:03,000
28-year-old man that was a supervisor to the teenage girl group, where they worked, you know,

484
00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:04,000
8 hour shifts, let that sink in first.

485
00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:05,000
And they used the 18-year-old boy that aged out to drive the state van to pimp them out. But the

486
00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:06,000
three girls were charged with federal trafficking. So they're going to be registered sex offenders,

487
00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:07,000
right? And I'm pretty sure that's not with the law intended.

488
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:08,000
There is a lot more, you know, last year with the girl at the hotel, she kinda knew the bouncer.

489
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:09,000
He does the day he pays her, then he robs her, or he takes everything, even her coat and her

490
00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:10,000
phone. He left her in her bra and panties. You know what would've happened if she'd called the

491
00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:11,000
front desk, right? So, you know, I went down and I took another the rape victim. Did not want to

492
00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:12,000
involve the police. Didn’t have a car, she knew if she called an ambulance, they were going to

493
00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:13,000
call the police.

494
00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:14,000
And we know that the more desperate and poor you are, the easier it is to exploit you. If you're

495
00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:15,000
cold and hungry, I can get you to try a trick for a blanket and a burger. Right this way. The same

496
00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:16,000
reason women sew Nikes tennis shoes for $0.26 an hour because they're poor, right?

497
00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:17,000
And you know, our homeless population has increased 35% since last year. Rents have more

498
00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:18,000
than doubled. This year it was cold. 54 people died of exposure in our state last year. And it’s

499
00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:19,000
just sad.

500
00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:20,000
KB

501
00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:21,000
And Bella has made it her life's work to help the next generation.

502
00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:22,000
BR

503
00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:23,000
We do outreach different, where we just open up the car and anyone that comes up, we get

504
00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:24,000
supplies to. We don't care who you are. If you're poor, if you're rich. But we don't chase anyone.

505
00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:25,000
And they can usually tell who’s the street workers, but I don't say anything different, they don’t

506
00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:26,000
treat ‘em any different, they shouldn’t have to out themselves.

507
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:27,000
One thing I did want to tell you is we started a support group, a little more than a year ago,

508
00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:28,000
same people come every week. We take turns facilitating, someone gets a $50 Amazon card.

509
00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:29,000
These group of people, it's just really awesome, the ties. We're doing a trans conference this

510
00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:30,000
year in May in Rhode Island. We wanted to create this check-in culture that if someone's

511
00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:31,000
missing that you know, and so we do this day we have actually a check-in culture, check-in

512
00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:32,000
culture coordinator.And even if you don't feel like talking, you still have to respond with

513
00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:33,000
something because it's important that we know when someone's missing, when somebody’s

514
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:34,000
isolated, when somebody’s in trouble.

515
00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:35,000
KB

516
00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:36,000
Along with her on the ground work. Bella has also participated in committees, educated

517
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,000
legislators, conducted community-led research that has been instrumental in setting the stage

518
00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:38,000
for changing hearts, minds, and laws on this issue. Let's get back to Steven.

519
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:39,000
SB

520
00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:40,000
One of the good things that happened is three years ago, the General Assembly established a

521
00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:41,000
legislative commission to take a look at the prostitution laws, to reexamine them. And the

522
00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:42,000
commission came out with a very good report, mentioning all, you know, some of the research

523
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:43,000
we've talked about about the positive effects of decriminalization, made a number of

524
00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:44,000
recommendations. And this year, the legislature passed three laws, in response that were

525
00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:45,000
helpful. I mean, they're small steps, but they repealed the law that had this extra fine if you're

526
00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:46,000
convicted of a prostitution offense. They repealed the law that required mandatory HIV testing if

527
00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:47,000
you were convicted of prostitution offense. And they also passed a law. It's fairly narrow, but it

528
00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,000
provides immunity to sex workers if they report certain crimes to the police, they cannot be

529
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:49,000
charged with the prostitution offense if they're doing that.

530
00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:50,000
So those all occurred this year, when one year, I think it was, you know, it was a very good step,

531
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:51,000
but you know, there is still a lot to be done.

532
00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:52,000
KB

533
00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:53,000
Any researcher that has looked at this issue with integrity knows that decriminalizing sex work is

534
00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:54,000
the only policy that reduces violence and size, and leads to the human rights and dignity of

535
00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:55,000
people working in the sex industry. But as any advocate will tell you, being right is not enough.

536
00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:56,000
You also have to be brave. I'm going to leave you with these words of wisdom from our

537
00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:57,000
accidental hero of this story, Michael.

538
00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:58,000
MK

539
00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:59,000
I think in all aspects of life we know we inherently know what needs to be done in the situation,

540
00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:00,000
what the situation requires, what our responsibility, what our job is under those circumstances,

541
00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:01,000
to have the actual courage to go forward and do what you know needs to be done, like this

542
00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:02,000
particular judge did. To me, that's more than a courageous act. It's commendable, and I think it's

543
00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:03,000
a rare thing.

544
00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:04,000
[closing]